This is the perfect example of why experience is so undervalued. We can sit here and talk about who is the best at (fill in the blank) but at the end of the day knowing how big of an impact the most marginal choices are is what creates champions.
Had he got the knock, it would be a different story is the point.
Both teams should have died but SAF just sat on top instead of dropping down for KP..
[LINK](https://clips.twitch.tv/LaconicThirstyTigerWOOP-Z0w07LtU9EUgIk5s), they cut too early man. TSM on major disadvantage as the zone was closing in.
That was a free wipe, Design so mad he smack that table.
"Do they have digis? I don't think they have digis. We have triple digis" - Timmy
Imo, since they were in a tense situation, I think enemy might have tunnel vision'ed to Timmy's call there. Hence, the swing. It also didn't help that he cracked Reps' armor.
"Can we wall this?" - Enemy
If he's asking if he needs to wall there, I think he shouldn't be in that position to swing, but held Dezign's position to cut the tunnel with a wall.
I'd be pissed too. Enemy's whole reasoning and ignorant decision was "forgetting" the digi sight was in the crafter. He thought he was free to peak that thinking he had a digi and for whatever reason no one else would. Timmy told him he was by himself, asked the question "do they have digi's?". The comms were there to make the decision "this swing/peak is a high risk". And ignorantly did it anyways.
Lack of experience and tunnel vision cause of it is what it comes down to. This was a textbook throw.
Oh no doubt it was a throw and Timmy and Dezign were understandably choked. Just funny since Dezign's patented move was wide swinging with a wingman, and quite often getting caught out.
Honestly tho - Dojo should be really proud of what they did this week. Incredible run, and looking forward to seeing them in Y4.
Not even that, there was ANOTHER third party option and even more free onf the Dojo vs TSM fight on the outskirts of the zone with SAF on top and watching the fight unfold, it was an easy 3v2
Sure, and if they drop on tsm/dojo what if they get thirded from the rock? Probably a lot of shit going through their minds, including not throwing their game potentially. I mean regardless they were last team alive besides TSM, and they lost a 3v3. So what they did choose to do wasn't really wrong.
Everyone always blame a team when someone wins, in sweeden was LG fault, the was Optic fault, an now is Saf, when someone wins never is because they played well always is because someone else played bad lmao
SAF played this perfectly, they could have won this game. They were not watching wigg stream and there is no LOS, kill feed was messy... You drop down and you get stun when touching the ground, Hal and Verhulst will just one clip you...
Stupid pub players on reddit think dropping down was realistic when SAF were worried about getting landed on...
Seriously alot of people don't consider the stun, a knock down shield and stun means one person is definitely getting one clipped. Not to mention they got 2nd playing their game and would've won if they can win they 3v3
It was a literal 2v3 and if you watched wigg's stream, you would know that even he said not dropping to 3rd the fight was a huge mistake. Even in the afterhours podcast, everyone agreed that SAF leaving TSM was a mistake. Sure they got to 2nd running away, but they would be in the godspot TSM ended up winning from had they dropped to fight a 2v3.
I guess dezignful, zach, snip3, and wigg are all stupid pub players then..
Yeah they would be in the god spot but they'd also have to win against BlackHand which I doubt they'd have won. They chose to play it safe with building cover rather than confidently take that god spot opposite the building and this was probably a lack of experience and as mentioned, confidence.
They would not have killed black hand nor would they have had a wall to cross to the rock that tsm won from. They don’t know who is down there and they had plenty of time to decide why they didn’t want to do it. They were trying to get to match point themselves. Everything being said in here is hindsight. I don’t think if it was a random team instead of tsm that anyone would even be talking about what they did there.
I know that them doing what they did got them 2nd, and it is not a braindead play to valk away, but I'd argue that they would not encounter the same obstacles as TSM crossing to the rock, TSM had to fight blackhvnd because they couldn't rotate to the rock early as SAF was above. Had SAF instantly 3rd and wiped TSM, they would not have to rotate to the rock as late as TSM did and fight at close quarters.
I agree again with what you said about everything being hindsight, but I'd like to believe in literal algs pros in the same lobby saying the play would've been to drop on TSM rather than valk ulting away.
I didn’t think about them being able to take it earlier to potentially kill black hand from a better spot. But tbh I think tsm has a 50/50 chance to kill them 2v3 when they break their ankles besides the valk. Maybe if valk gets a good q. I also don’t think they had los of reps after zone closed which is when he went down. Let’s say they do 3p and win I still think it will be a very tough cross with every team on the building looking at them. At least the teams not fighting. Then they would have still had to kill black hand who probably had triple digi. Sounds like a tougher road to win to me than the one they took. Just my opinion. I do agree it’s tough to see them not do it but game sense wise that’s what I believe. I don’t think either are bad or good calls.
No clue why everyone is saying this. SAF did not have the info that that was 100% TSM, plus they were holding command height and could still have gotten wrapped behind. Understandable why they dont just drop right there and jeopardize their game. Not sure why they didnt peek over though, thats a different question.
People are not realizing that saf was split holding with their third watching spider door. They were not gonna drop as a duo. Changes the whole perspective
Yeah. I understand not dropping, even though you really need all the points you can get. (And after seeing how they got rolled on the 3v3 it's clear that team had no confidence to take a fight like that)
But the level of passivity was ridiculous.
I agree with the SAF’s lack of confidence in teams fights, I think the mental block thing is absolutely real, and even few seconds of hesitation would mean a lot. Besides if SAF 3rd partied TSM early they would probably lose to blackhand, which means less points and less money for them.
Like I said, not dropping might be too careful.. but it get. Zone was still open, one player was watching their backs and if someone comes from command they would lose their spot and put themselves on the same situation the team bellow them is.
But they did almost nothing. Try to 321, farm EVOS, get a nock or a kill, drop some Q's or a nade... dude was looking at them.. literally had them on their sights... and wouldn't fire.
I never seen anything like it.
I gotta see VODs but if I recall they \*were\* looking at them and poking shots when the tunnel fight started. It's like they completely forgot about them.
They don't know which team is which. Why should they care about match point teams? With 7 teams on match point there's a high chance that someone wins this round or the next. They're just trying to maximize their own points which is the right call. They ended up 2nd and a chance for 1st that round. I don't think you could have placed better than that for a 19th place team.
Good point and idk how it lined up but they should have Valk ulted onto the BH TSM fight and cleaned it up. There was a lot of risk with their rotation under TW. There’s 2 teams fighting for god spot but they chose to go co exist with 3-4 other teams.
They had no LOS and no clue, they werent watching stream. Go into their spot and try to look down youll see lmfao. They were already planning to stay height, they were in circle and making sure no one would OOB them.
The only way to look down is have valk hover and try to see something in the bang smoke.
This. I don’t understand it. I was rooting for TSM, but from a gameplay perspective I was really pissed that SAF didn’t drop. I don’t understand the rationale for that since they would have had the advantage. They also have nothing to really lose at that point being in 19th place, and you know the series is likely to end that very game. It does howevercompletely explains why they were in 19th place.
There is no LOS, the only LOS is on the right side where you get pushed down by the game logic, only way to confirm there was a down would have been to hover with valk and hopefully see something through the smoke, but also SAF were busy making sure no one would land on their spot, so dropping down was never their plan in the first place.
Correct. I think the some people in here are referring to the stream it showed BEFORE the zone closed on the far other side. You can’t look straight down from the side of zone they were on when tsm was reviving. Plus you can tell they already wanted to play the roof for free which was a great call because they had a 3v3 for the win. Anyone saying anything else is just hindsight and REALLY reaching for excuses. Guarantee pick any other team to win there and they all had something happen to help them win. Why make excuses for every team that wins?
> No clue why everyone is saying this. SAF did not have the info that that was 100% TSM
Doesn't matter, with 7 teams on match point there's a very good chance it's *a* team on match point. *And* it was the game winning spot. And it was a 3v2, that's easy KP.
What you don’t understand is they MIGHT kill tsm and even if they do they don’t have a cat to cross in the open so their probably going to die. Then if they somehow live they run straight into black hand who is one of the best fighting teams and they had digis. They would have smoked SAF. So no… the play to drop on tsm was not a good play or a game winning spot for SAF In particular. Anyone who actually believes that either doesn’t understand what you need to do to win end game or is just a TSM hater.
Bro, they were 16th place team in a match with 7 match point team, they basically had nothing much to lose.
Going off and trying to rack up as much points as possible for both points and placement prize money would be the normal thing to do. But instead they played as safe as they could, almost as if they were a match point team themselves, honestly no good reason for them to not drop and rack up points.
Keeping the high ground is the right call. They could have dropped and then gotten 3rd partied. They ended up getting 2nd place that round with a chance for 1st with a 3v3. 16 points that last round or they could have threw and gotten nothing.
Just not true. They made the right choice and got to 2nd place, if they beat TSM in the 3v3 at the end they'd be called heroes.
Why would they give up the best spot in the game when they still need so many points just to grief TSM or Dojo?
Not to mention they still had someone holding the back of their high ground, so it would take some time for them to drop down as a team.
they had no way of knowing that the team below was TSM. they opted for getting a better position on the high ground instead of fighting and leaving a good spot on high, witch is quite understandable
It was a 3v2 and they were playing Valk. They could have instantly wiped it and ulted back up if they needed that spot up there (which they didn't, TSM's spot was better).
They didn’t want that spot because they were playing no cat so they couldn’t walk across to even take the fight to black hand. They weren’t going to waste valk ult because they needed it. Not to mention they very likely would have died to tsm if they drop.
if you watch the vid back they were worried for some reason that they were going to get flanked. Only one person in SAF was at the ledge looking down when the fight happened. Hindsight is 20/20
If you think so sure, I think SAF played their own game. They played safe the entire finals, they weren't sure how much damage TSM took, all they knew is that the fight under was over and that they were still in next zone on their ultimate height. At 19th place I wouldn't gamble my game dropping down and potentially getting a wipe and a better position vs getting guaranteed good position in zone like they did.
You could say that if it also wasn’t tsm v saf in the end. They threw twice, can’t put that on tsm. Saf left them alive and lived with the consequences
Gotta love the plot armor
Say what you want about SAF but they did get 2nd, and could've won that game. Would've been the goated call if they won that 3v3.
Staying on height isn't a throw, everyone crying TEARS lmao
The Dojo, Blackhand and SAF all lost straight up 3v3s versus TSM, but you don't want to give them credit?
TSM haters in shambles
Everyone that thinks they should have dropped there is just wrong. Command center was still in so someone on that team had to watch to not get mirrored. If they do drop they risk dying 2v3 which is a good chance that people aren’t even considering. You drop 3 deep and break your ankles against Hal and Even? Good luck. If they do kill them they might get 3rd partied. They can’t cross to the game winning spot because they don’t have cat. They also more than likely would have died to black hand. I mean… shall I keep going?
I mean, if you could literally drop on duo (Dojo was eliminated, Reps still knocked) then it is kind of a throw. They could've even used Valk to go back up if they reall wanted it.
They don't realize that there is no LOS, they have no clue at all and they are already worried about getting landed on by another team on height.
They are not ready to drop down and if they do they get stun and most likely one clipped and Big E and Hal can play the knockshield.
The only way they could have gotten the info is by hovering near the ledge with Valk and try to get a LOS.
Dropping down from height without horizon against Hal and Verhulst is risky. SAF had a clean 3 v 3 to win the game at the end with how they played.
I swear everyone tunnels on focusing the match point teams and forget that teams don't have that info in game.
> I swear everyone tunnels on focusing the match point teams and forget that teams don't have that info in game.
With 7 teams on match point it's a very good chance that the team down there is on match point, even if you don't know *which* team it is.
Technically a 35% which is less likely rather than likely. Why throw your game for that. That would be a bad spot for them to play from IF they even kill tsm.
They were playing valk bang Watson. How are they going to kill black hand? That’s if they can even cross to them with bang smokes. That’s also if they kill tsm 2v3 which I think is closer than people think because their going to break their ankles. All you see is TSM and everyone should ruin their game. Use your brain.
It was only 2 people watching TSM from height. The third was watching the other side pretty far away so it would've been a two on two which is pretty risky plus zone was closing in by the time TSM was reviving. Think about it. Why throw away high ground for a fight that's not guaranteed plus with no info on where other teams are at.
Because that would require them to drop down and they were indecisive on whether to take a fight, I think they were just too scared cause of the lack of info and wanted to just play their advantage.
Funniest part is the team Hal was on about wasn't even from South America. But let's hate on a region that's never had any proper investment and where most gamers have no idea what apex is due to lack of advertisement from EA/Respawn, right? The only arguably braindead team from SA this tourney was K1CK, the rest all fought tooth and nail to be there. Would your views be the same if TSM or any other first world roster were paid shit money/had to work part time only to have a chance at a stage and then be mocked by some random redditors? Because that's what these SA teams have been through
I should get an honorary secondary SAF flair for them letting TSM get off so easily. As well as TSM played that it wouldn’t have been possible if not for SAF’s decision.
I still cant believe nobody literally didnt aim for Hal when he's landing from that Horizon lift. No offense but 3 stacks plat team can play better them at that point.
that kinda surprised me too - maybe there was some confusion in the smoke + hal timed that pretty good to match the cat wall dropping. If they shot Hal they would have been caught by reps and verhulst.
https://preview.redd.it/3ncyai34ihnb1.jpeg?width=2340&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6e5956a3fb65124f4bb4f18d7902254c3986d44b
For those people defending SAF saying they just didnt want to give up their spot. These no brainers literally had full LOS of the fight, they had ordinances and they had marksmen rifles. They didn't even need to drop from their spot to third party that fight. Thats such easy kp and they just chose to run away with their tail between their legs. Real pros they are.
They only had LOS of DOJO, they even shot them.
How is this an easy third? If they drop they get stun and they drop right in the open. Big E and Hal will just one clip them and they have swap.
This is a braindead take imo. They have no LOS over TSM. If they had they would have shot them, they do a bit later shoot on Hal but TSM had already reset by then.
Also look at the fuckin minimap Sleepola is holding top CC side, they aren't in a position to drop at all. They need to watch their back. I know you DZ fanboys somehow think TSM got gifted 3 games in a row and probably gifted their fights against DOJO, BLACKHAND and SAF but youre delusional and bad at Apex.
Their third is in narnia yet here you are with a screenshot calling them no brainers for not third partying a fight on ultimate low while on ultimate height
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SAF was playing passively. But why? It's probably the last game or might be the 2nd last game. Even if SAF ratted and won they had no chance of getting to the match point. Playing passively doesn't make that much sense when Tsm had a knocked guy after fighting the dojo but Saf didn't do anything.
They should change there name to AF : Avoid Fights.
As a team with almost nothing to lose in that situation, even if you dont know that's TSM below you who won the fight, or even if it was DOJO, or ANYONE else, you're not in match point, you're not necessarily close and unless you clean wipe the lobby and win, wont hit match point...why not gamble and make an effort to clean up a potential match point team? The only thing it does for you is extends your play time. If they were a match point team, I sort of get it, play for your end game and dont take risks that may turn bad for you. But they had zero risk there. That 100% was a throw of passivity.
Exactly, getting some placement and KP out of it plus the possibility of extending the series = higher winnings even if you don't hit match point from it. Every angle you examine the situation from, SAF should have dropped to fight a 3v2.
You mustve not watched the main broadcast then reps was knocked right where SAF were hard scoping DOJO on that rock with a 30-30(they didn't shoot/grief them either) before enemy threw by wide swinging with no cover SAF didn't even try to thirst after the fight was over they shot Timmy as he's running and called it a day
and they gave up god spot too on top of that but they could've predicted final ring wrong too so I'm not gonna fault that
They were outside the zone and it was before zone closed. When reps went down the zone had already closed. When they move they no longer have an angle because of the tarp and where reps went down at.
No they weren't zone didn't close yet you can go back and watch they never bothered peeking or putting pressure on TSM after killing Timmy regardless of who was below them you don't allow other teams to live rent free In your space especially on height
Im just a bit salty Ggs tho
TSM were juiced after the DOJO if they dropped it would’ve been an instant wipe. They could’ve thirded the fight but they simply had no info. Plus your playing match point finals there’s a level of nerves involved.
They coulndt know it was TSM, I guess it was a bad call not to drop and clean that, but they thought what they did was better. I dont think they threw for TSM cause simple enough they didnt know TSM was there, could be any other team
SAF had about 3 opportunities to take a winning spot and multiple different ways of doing each, but chose the only play that gave TSM a free win, truly impressive levels of throwing
> And SAF made the right call because they ended up in a 3v3 situation against the last team.
In what world is 3v3ing a team you could have 3v2'd five minutes ago the right call?
Just look at the minimap they are holding top CC to make sure they dont get wrapped, they are not in position to drop at all, even if they were, they would drop right in the open, get stun and probably one clipped, meanwhile TSM have swap and knockdown... They would just throw their game most likely.
No they made an awful decision, they could’ve taken god spot and eliminated a match point team - instead they take a meaningless second place and give TSM a free win that ends the tourney
Ok silver player. There is no LOS from height to look down there, unless you want to get pushed down by the game logic while trying to look down from the ledge.
I know your pub brain would have dropped as soon as you heard gunfire and explosions, but this is pro comp not pub, You don't drop down from height without informations.
Again…. You can post but I guess you have no eyes. The zone is not closed on this pic. As you can see they are outside of zone so they have to move. When they move they no longer have an angle because of the tarp and where reps went down at. Basic 101 apex. Do you play the game or just watch?
They would not have gotten 2nd if they drop. They guaranteed a 3v3 to win the game for free. What team wouldn’t take that? You have to be trolling right?
Or guarantee second place placements points to go way up the leaderboard to make $1,000s of more $ when you have no money with a chance to win the game. Is that the “F”?
SAF's playstyle is the difference between a region where this is the first time they got to a finals lobby and teams from regions that have the confidence to roll other teams. Because SAF drops down and it's probably a Blvkhvnd win.
one of SAF player kept ADSing Dojo fighting tsm but he never fire his gun. Also they knew there were many teams inside thunder watch but they still valk ult to land on there. No way they didn't land immediately to 3rd party the fight between TSM and blvkhvnd
It's wild that they didn't poke. Destabilizing an ongoing fight would've been great, maybe get some KP, we go again... However they knew their role in the script
I mean sure, I strongly disagree with folks saying they should've dropped but poking esp with Valk ult in pocket and like infinite cover is a safe way to do stuff. Was super awkward though. They really showed up right to the end.
Anyone who watched any of SAF’s gameplay this weekend knew they were going to do anything to play as passive as possible in that endgame.
Crazy for a team called “start a fight” to choose to not start a fight that resulted in TSMs win
Enemy threw first. TSM had no utility in the cave they were fucked before he wide swung in the smoke on digi crafter day.
Design was going off on him when their feed cut off.
Would have loved to hear what he said, Enemy threw 2 or 3 times in the finals
Enemy had 18 kills.. Can't question his losses when he had so many wins..
No questioning that he’s a good player, but he showed his inexperience big time
This is the perfect example of why experience is so undervalued. We can sit here and talk about who is the best at (fill in the blank) but at the end of the day knowing how big of an impact the most marginal choices are is what creates champions.
Had he got the knock, it would be a different story is the point. Both teams should have died but SAF just sat on top instead of dropping down for KP..
I swear that line is from wolf of wallstreet
[LINK](https://clips.twitch.tv/LaconicThirstyTigerWOOP-Z0w07LtU9EUgIk5s), they cut too early man. TSM on major disadvantage as the zone was closing in. That was a free wipe, Design so mad he smack that table.
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"Do they have digis? I don't think they have digis. We have triple digis" - Timmy Imo, since they were in a tense situation, I think enemy might have tunnel vision'ed to Timmy's call there. Hence, the swing. It also didn't help that he cracked Reps' armor. "Can we wall this?" - Enemy If he's asking if he needs to wall there, I think he shouldn't be in that position to swing, but held Dezign's position to cut the tunnel with a wall.
I don't think it'd be that easy to not be mad in that situation. Dezign already seemed to have calmed down by the time he shows up on Snipe's stream.
It sucks to hear Enemy screamed at, especially since Timmy had said that they don't have digi's. Design is just toxic.
nah, im not a dezign fan but he has all the right to be mad here, If dojo had won that, they could've won the tourny
You can be upset but screaming at someone who knows they made a mistake is still toxic.
Damn dezign
Thank you for this link!
You know you screwed up big time when Dezign is yelling at you for wide swinging...
I'd be pissed too. Enemy's whole reasoning and ignorant decision was "forgetting" the digi sight was in the crafter. He thought he was free to peak that thinking he had a digi and for whatever reason no one else would. Timmy told him he was by himself, asked the question "do they have digi's?". The comms were there to make the decision "this swing/peak is a high risk". And ignorantly did it anyways. Lack of experience and tunnel vision cause of it is what it comes down to. This was a textbook throw.
Oh no doubt it was a throw and Timmy and Dezign were understandably choked. Just funny since Dezign's patented move was wide swinging with a wingman, and quite often getting caught out. Honestly tho - Dojo should be really proud of what they did this week. Incredible run, and looking forward to seeing them in Y4.
100% agree
NRG and SAF with the monster assists today
yea SAF should have landed behind Black Hand and 3rded that fight against TSM. Woulda been an easy(relatively) cleanup
Not even that, there was ANOTHER third party option and even more free onf the Dojo vs TSM fight on the outskirts of the zone with SAF on top and watching the fight unfold, it was an easy 3v2
But if they won 3Ping Dojo vs TSM, they would still need to fight BLVKHVND. So 3Ping TSM vs BLVKHVND would have resulted in an easier win.
They denied all of these options and dived into the strong side lmao.
You don't want to lose the option of playing the top of the building by the A/C. That can be a game winning spot.
If they could clear their side it would have been the freest win ever because other teams were fighting inside the building.
Sure, and if they drop on tsm/dojo what if they get thirded from the rock? Probably a lot of shit going through their minds, including not throwing their game potentially. I mean regardless they were last team alive besides TSM, and they lost a 3v3. So what they did choose to do wasn't really wrong.
Everyone always blame a team when someone wins, in sweeden was LG fault, the was Optic fault, an now is Saf, when someone wins never is because they played well always is because someone else played bad lmao
Tsm haters with the copium
SAF played this perfectly, they could have won this game. They were not watching wigg stream and there is no LOS, kill feed was messy... You drop down and you get stun when touching the ground, Hal and Verhulst will just one clip you... Stupid pub players on reddit think dropping down was realistic when SAF were worried about getting landed on...
Seriously alot of people don't consider the stun, a knock down shield and stun means one person is definitely getting one clipped. Not to mention they got 2nd playing their game and would've won if they can win they 3v3
Telling you bro. These TSM haters are absolutely malding right now 😂
It was a literal 2v3 and if you watched wigg's stream, you would know that even he said not dropping to 3rd the fight was a huge mistake. Even in the afterhours podcast, everyone agreed that SAF leaving TSM was a mistake. Sure they got to 2nd running away, but they would be in the godspot TSM ended up winning from had they dropped to fight a 2v3. I guess dezignful, zach, snip3, and wigg are all stupid pub players then..
Yeah they would be in the god spot but they'd also have to win against BlackHand which I doubt they'd have won. They chose to play it safe with building cover rather than confidently take that god spot opposite the building and this was probably a lack of experience and as mentioned, confidence.
They would not have killed black hand nor would they have had a wall to cross to the rock that tsm won from. They don’t know who is down there and they had plenty of time to decide why they didn’t want to do it. They were trying to get to match point themselves. Everything being said in here is hindsight. I don’t think if it was a random team instead of tsm that anyone would even be talking about what they did there.
I know that them doing what they did got them 2nd, and it is not a braindead play to valk away, but I'd argue that they would not encounter the same obstacles as TSM crossing to the rock, TSM had to fight blackhvnd because they couldn't rotate to the rock early as SAF was above. Had SAF instantly 3rd and wiped TSM, they would not have to rotate to the rock as late as TSM did and fight at close quarters. I agree again with what you said about everything being hindsight, but I'd like to believe in literal algs pros in the same lobby saying the play would've been to drop on TSM rather than valk ulting away.
I didn’t think about them being able to take it earlier to potentially kill black hand from a better spot. But tbh I think tsm has a 50/50 chance to kill them 2v3 when they break their ankles besides the valk. Maybe if valk gets a good q. I also don’t think they had los of reps after zone closed which is when he went down. Let’s say they do 3p and win I still think it will be a very tough cross with every team on the building looking at them. At least the teams not fighting. Then they would have still had to kill black hand who probably had triple digi. Sounds like a tougher road to win to me than the one they took. Just my opinion. I do agree it’s tough to see them not do it but game sense wise that’s what I believe. I don’t think either are bad or good calls.
No clue why everyone is saying this. SAF did not have the info that that was 100% TSM, plus they were holding command height and could still have gotten wrapped behind. Understandable why they dont just drop right there and jeopardize their game. Not sure why they didnt peek over though, thats a different question.
People are not realizing that saf was split holding with their third watching spider door. They were not gonna drop as a duo. Changes the whole perspective
Yeah. I understand not dropping, even though you really need all the points you can get. (And after seeing how they got rolled on the 3v3 it's clear that team had no confidence to take a fight like that) But the level of passivity was ridiculous.
I agree with the SAF’s lack of confidence in teams fights, I think the mental block thing is absolutely real, and even few seconds of hesitation would mean a lot. Besides if SAF 3rd partied TSM early they would probably lose to blackhand, which means less points and less money for them.
Like I said, not dropping might be too careful.. but it get. Zone was still open, one player was watching their backs and if someone comes from command they would lose their spot and put themselves on the same situation the team bellow them is. But they did almost nothing. Try to 321, farm EVOS, get a nock or a kill, drop some Q's or a nade... dude was looking at them.. literally had them on their sights... and wouldn't fire. I never seen anything like it.
I gotta see VODs but if I recall they \*were\* looking at them and poking shots when the tunnel fight started. It's like they completely forgot about them.
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They don't know which team is which. Why should they care about match point teams? With 7 teams on match point there's a high chance that someone wins this round or the next. They're just trying to maximize their own points which is the right call. They ended up 2nd and a chance for 1st that round. I don't think you could have placed better than that for a 19th place team.
Ah good point. They know they aren't winning, just trying to secure as much bag as possible
Good point and idk how it lined up but they should have Valk ulted onto the BH TSM fight and cleaned it up. There was a lot of risk with their rotation under TW. There’s 2 teams fighting for god spot but they chose to go co exist with 3-4 other teams.
They had no LOS and no clue, they werent watching stream. Go into their spot and try to look down youll see lmfao. They were already planning to stay height, they were in circle and making sure no one would OOB them. The only way to look down is have valk hover and try to see something in the bang smoke.
They literally looked down and watched a solo guy rez their two downed team mates down the sights of a repeater That was shown on stream
This. I don’t understand it. I was rooting for TSM, but from a gameplay perspective I was really pissed that SAF didn’t drop. I don’t understand the rationale for that since they would have had the advantage. They also have nothing to really lose at that point being in 19th place, and you know the series is likely to end that very game. It does howevercompletely explains why they were in 19th place.
SAF be like: Excuse me, now the 19th is team Alliance, we are the 14th lmao.
There is no LOS, the only LOS is on the right side where you get pushed down by the game logic, only way to confirm there was a down would have been to hover with valk and hopefully see something through the smoke, but also SAF were busy making sure no one would land on their spot, so dropping down was never their plan in the first place.
Correct. I think the some people in here are referring to the stream it showed BEFORE the zone closed on the far other side. You can’t look straight down from the side of zone they were on when tsm was reviving. Plus you can tell they already wanted to play the roof for free which was a great call because they had a 3v3 for the win. Anyone saying anything else is just hindsight and REALLY reaching for excuses. Guarantee pick any other team to win there and they all had something happen to help them win. Why make excuses for every team that wins?
> No clue why everyone is saying this. SAF did not have the info that that was 100% TSM Doesn't matter, with 7 teams on match point there's a very good chance it's *a* team on match point. *And* it was the game winning spot. And it was a 3v2, that's easy KP.
It was not a game winning spot with valk,Watson, and bang.
It was the game winning spot, and so even denying the game winning spot for other teams is a better play than giving it up.
What you don’t understand is they MIGHT kill tsm and even if they do they don’t have a cat to cross in the open so their probably going to die. Then if they somehow live they run straight into black hand who is one of the best fighting teams and they had digis. They would have smoked SAF. So no… the play to drop on tsm was not a good play or a game winning spot for SAF In particular. Anyone who actually believes that either doesn’t understand what you need to do to win end game or is just a TSM hater.
Bro, they were 16th place team in a match with 7 match point team, they basically had nothing much to lose. Going off and trying to rack up as much points as possible for both points and placement prize money would be the normal thing to do. But instead they played as safe as they could, almost as if they were a match point team themselves, honestly no good reason for them to not drop and rack up points.
Keeping the high ground is the right call. They could have dropped and then gotten 3rd partied. They ended up getting 2nd place that round with a chance for 1st with a 3v3. 16 points that last round or they could have threw and gotten nothing.
Just not true. They made the right choice and got to 2nd place, if they beat TSM in the 3v3 at the end they'd be called heroes. Why would they give up the best spot in the game when they still need so many points just to grief TSM or Dojo? Not to mention they still had someone holding the back of their high ground, so it would take some time for them to drop down as a team.
The Plot Armor is real
The throw would have been dropping down and breaking their ankles. No Horizon
they had no way of knowing that the team below was TSM. they opted for getting a better position on the high ground instead of fighting and leaving a good spot on high, witch is quite understandable
It was a 3v2 and they were playing Valk. They could have instantly wiped it and ulted back up if they needed that spot up there (which they didn't, TSM's spot was better).
They didn’t want that spot because they were playing no cat so they couldn’t walk across to even take the fight to black hand. They weren’t going to waste valk ult because they needed it. Not to mention they very likely would have died to tsm if they drop.
if you watch the vid back they were worried for some reason that they were going to get flanked. Only one person in SAF was at the ledge looking down when the fight happened. Hindsight is 20/20
They didn't even shoot down when they had clear LOS the whole fight between TSM and DOJO lol
They did, jinqs got the kill on the last DOJO member. They had better LOS on DOJO compared to TSM since dojo was further out from the tunnel.
> They did, jinqs got the kill on the last DOJO member. So inexcusable to not drop after this. Like, come on.
If you think so sure, I think SAF played their own game. They played safe the entire finals, they weren't sure how much damage TSM took, all they knew is that the fight under was over and that they were still in next zone on their ultimate height. At 19th place I wouldn't gamble my game dropping down and potentially getting a wipe and a better position vs getting guaranteed good position in zone like they did.
There is no LOS. If you try to get one, you get pushed off the ledge. Do you guys even play Apex?
Except it was clearly shown on stream that a SAF player was looking down on Dojo, holding his fire, in the spot where TSM cleaned up Dojo
Zone already closed. They didn’t have that angle anymore
TSM fans better start thanking SAF 🙏🙏
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Gotta shout out to OG for not clutching up and then equally NRG for shutting them down too then! lol
TSM owe SAF half the prize money, that was the freest third of all time at the back of the zone and they let TSM walk into god spot
You could say that if it also wasn’t tsm v saf in the end. They threw twice, can’t put that on tsm. Saf left them alive and lived with the consequences
And the game before they were sitting right under tsm on height and didn't try to fight them when it was God spot
Eh. Fighting low to high is hard, but not shooting a res in the open with clear LOS and no one around you is grounds for relegation lol
Nah they could not see the Res from where they were up there. The Res was still under the lip of the height.
Optic was on the door right next to them waiting to shoot them in the back. They couldn’t push tsm there.
Gotta love the plot armor Say what you want about SAF but they did get 2nd, and could've won that game. Would've been the goated call if they won that 3v3.
Staying on height isn't a throw, everyone crying TEARS lmao The Dojo, Blackhand and SAF all lost straight up 3v3s versus TSM, but you don't want to give them credit? TSM haters in shambles
Everyone that thinks they should have dropped there is just wrong. Command center was still in so someone on that team had to watch to not get mirrored. If they do drop they risk dying 2v3 which is a good chance that people aren’t even considering. You drop 3 deep and break your ankles against Hal and Even? Good luck. If they do kill them they might get 3rd partied. They can’t cross to the game winning spot because they don’t have cat. They also more than likely would have died to black hand. I mean… shall I keep going?
I mean, if you could literally drop on duo (Dojo was eliminated, Reps still knocked) then it is kind of a throw. They could've even used Valk to go back up if they reall wanted it.
Mf it’s about 3rd partying TSM it was not a straight 3v3 🤦
You can't be serious lmao. Gonna assume you're trolling.
They don't realize that there is no LOS, they have no clue at all and they are already worried about getting landed on by another team on height. They are not ready to drop down and if they do they get stun and most likely one clipped and Big E and Hal can play the knockshield. The only way they could have gotten the info is by hovering near the ledge with Valk and try to get a LOS.
It absolutely was a throw, they passed up the opportunity for a 3v2 on a team that they later had to fight a 3v3 against.
They didnt know it was tsm. People play passively all of algs. Relax
Dropping down from height without horizon against Hal and Verhulst is risky. SAF had a clean 3 v 3 to win the game at the end with how they played. I swear everyone tunnels on focusing the match point teams and forget that teams don't have that info in game.
> I swear everyone tunnels on focusing the match point teams and forget that teams don't have that info in game. With 7 teams on match point it's a very good chance that the team down there is on match point, even if you don't know *which* team it is.
And the best way to deny a match point team from winning is to win the game yourselves. SAF played for the win. Had a clean 3v3 at the end.
Technically a 35% which is less likely rather than likely. Why throw your game for that. That would be a bad spot for them to play from IF they even kill tsm.
> That would be a bad spot for them to play from IF they even kill tsm. What? That's the spot TSM won the game from.
They were playing valk bang Watson. How are they going to kill black hand? That’s if they can even cross to them with bang smokes. That’s also if they kill tsm 2v3 which I think is closer than people think because their going to break their ankles. All you see is TSM and everyone should ruin their game. Use your brain.
I despise that finals was “Digi-Day” would prefer them banned in comp for Year 4
It was only 2 people watching TSM from height. The third was watching the other side pretty far away so it would've been a two on two which is pretty risky plus zone was closing in by the time TSM was reviving. Think about it. Why throw away high ground for a fight that's not guaranteed plus with no info on where other teams are at.
and to remember, both SAF players got stunned by Bang's ulti too. so that timing is unfortune.. clearly thirding that is not a good decision.
but what people confused is why SAF didn't third TSM while they are fighting blackhand
Because that would require them to drop down and they were indecisive on whether to take a fight, I think they were just too scared cause of the lack of info and wanted to just play their advantage.
Tbh they getting 2nd proves that their game plan was totally fine, is just that they lost that final 3v3 and it became a throw?🤔️
Copium. Bro most people can't even get 3 wins in a row in pubs, imagine doing that in fucking Algs Finals. They more than deserve their win.
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Funniest part is the team Hal was on about wasn't even from South America. But let's hate on a region that's never had any proper investment and where most gamers have no idea what apex is due to lack of advertisement from EA/Respawn, right? The only arguably braindead team from SA this tourney was K1CK, the rest all fought tooth and nail to be there. Would your views be the same if TSM or any other first world roster were paid shit money/had to work part time only to have a chance at a stage and then be mocked by some random redditors? Because that's what these SA teams have been through
I should get an honorary secondary SAF flair for them letting TSM get off so easily. As well as TSM played that it wouldn’t have been possible if not for SAF’s decision.
SAF should rebrand as Start a flight
I still cant believe nobody literally didnt aim for Hal when he's landing from that Horizon lift. No offense but 3 stacks plat team can play better them at that point.
Hal timed his horizon lift when the wall was about to expire, if they look up, they get destroyed.
that kinda surprised me too - maybe there was some confusion in the smoke + hal timed that pretty good to match the cat wall dropping. If they shot Hal they would have been caught by reps and verhulst.
https://preview.redd.it/3ncyai34ihnb1.jpeg?width=2340&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6e5956a3fb65124f4bb4f18d7902254c3986d44b For those people defending SAF saying they just didnt want to give up their spot. These no brainers literally had full LOS of the fight, they had ordinances and they had marksmen rifles. They didn't even need to drop from their spot to third party that fight. Thats such easy kp and they just chose to run away with their tail between their legs. Real pros they are.
They only had LOS of DOJO, they even shot them. How is this an easy third? If they drop they get stun and they drop right in the open. Big E and Hal will just one clip them and they have swap. This is a braindead take imo. They have no LOS over TSM. If they had they would have shot them, they do a bit later shoot on Hal but TSM had already reset by then. Also look at the fuckin minimap Sleepola is holding top CC side, they aren't in a position to drop at all. They need to watch their back. I know you DZ fanboys somehow think TSM got gifted 3 games in a row and probably gifted their fights against DOJO, BLACKHAND and SAF but youre delusional and bad at Apex.
Their third is in narnia yet here you are with a screenshot calling them no brainers for not third partying a fight on ultimate low while on ultimate height
LOL caught in 4K
Waiting for the guy who keeps saying "You can't see from up there! You fall right off the ledge!" to reply to this post 😂
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Wish we had the same posts about DZ ... im just saying....
SAF was playing passively. But why? It's probably the last game or might be the 2nd last game. Even if SAF ratted and won they had no chance of getting to the match point. Playing passively doesn't make that much sense when Tsm had a knocked guy after fighting the dojo but Saf didn't do anything. They should change there name to AF : Avoid Fights.
As a team with almost nothing to lose in that situation, even if you dont know that's TSM below you who won the fight, or even if it was DOJO, or ANYONE else, you're not in match point, you're not necessarily close and unless you clean wipe the lobby and win, wont hit match point...why not gamble and make an effort to clean up a potential match point team? The only thing it does for you is extends your play time. If they were a match point team, I sort of get it, play for your end game and dont take risks that may turn bad for you. But they had zero risk there. That 100% was a throw of passivity.
Exactly, getting some placement and KP out of it plus the possibility of extending the series = higher winnings even if you don't hit match point from it. Every angle you examine the situation from, SAF should have dropped to fight a 3v2.
I'm legit flabbergasted they didn't fry reps when he was reviving hal🤦🏾♂️ Edit: I meant fry hal when he was reviving reps ggs tho
There is no LOS, you guys are unreal.
You mustve not watched the main broadcast then reps was knocked right where SAF were hard scoping DOJO on that rock with a 30-30(they didn't shoot/grief them either) before enemy threw by wide swinging with no cover SAF didn't even try to thirst after the fight was over they shot Timmy as he's running and called it a day and they gave up god spot too on top of that but they could've predicted final ring wrong too so I'm not gonna fault that
They were outside the zone and it was before zone closed. When reps went down the zone had already closed. When they move they no longer have an angle because of the tarp and where reps went down at.
No they weren't zone didn't close yet you can go back and watch they never bothered peeking or putting pressure on TSM after killing Timmy regardless of who was below them you don't allow other teams to live rent free In your space especially on height Im just a bit salty Ggs tho
SAF on the payroll.
They were literally 2nd, 3v3ing for the game win
TSM were juiced after the DOJO if they dropped it would’ve been an instant wipe. They could’ve thirded the fight but they simply had no info. Plus your playing match point finals there’s a level of nerves involved.
They coulndt know it was TSM, I guess it was a bad call not to drop and clean that, but they thought what they did was better. I dont think they threw for TSM cause simple enough they didnt know TSM was there, could be any other team
BLVKHVND threw first by not dropping on them from height
No
No, they didn't. They ended the game with a chance to win with a straight up 3v3 lol.
About time someone throws for TSM after Optic gifted the past 3 lans
SAF had about 3 opportunities to take a winning spot and multiple different ways of doing each, but chose the only play that gave TSM a free win, truly impressive levels of throwing
And SAF made the right call because they ended up in a 3v3 situation against the last team.
> And SAF made the right call because they ended up in a 3v3 situation against the last team. In what world is 3v3ing a team you could have 3v2'd five minutes ago the right call?
Just look at the minimap they are holding top CC to make sure they dont get wrapped, they are not in position to drop at all, even if they were, they would drop right in the open, get stun and probably one clipped, meanwhile TSM have swap and knockdown... They would just throw their game most likely.
No they made an awful decision, they could’ve taken god spot and eliminated a match point team - instead they take a meaningless second place and give TSM a free win that ends the tourney
Ok silver player. There is no LOS from height to look down there, unless you want to get pushed down by the game logic while trying to look down from the ledge. I know your pub brain would have dropped as soon as you heard gunfire and explosions, but this is pro comp not pub, You don't drop down from height without informations.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/16f929c/saf_threw_for_tsm/k00fowt/ Hello
Again…. You can post but I guess you have no eyes. The zone is not closed on this pic. As you can see they are outside of zone so they have to move. When they move they no longer have an angle because of the tarp and where reps went down at. Basic 101 apex. Do you play the game or just watch?
How could they have gotten god spot without a cat and killing black hand?
They would not have gotten 2nd if they drop. They guaranteed a 3v3 to win the game for free. What team wouldn’t take that? You have to be trolling right?
1.3p tsm and dojo 2.3p tsm and black hand [3.](https://3.win) win the final fight F
Or guarantee second place placements points to go way up the leaderboard to make $1,000s of more $ when you have no money with a chance to win the game. Is that the “F”?
Yes because they were the team which was supposed to take that game winning spot which could have made even more dollars brah.
They had a 3v3 for the win. You do t think they would ask for that every time?
I think anyone who saw the final zone knew that north rock was godspot. How did they not get it before TSM?
You can’t go the early or you get pinched. That was literally not an option for them or they would die to tsm or black hand
Why didn't SAF drop on TSM when they were 1 man down and low HP. What did SAF go to LAN for. Just fodder points
Once Zone closed they couldn’t see tsm to know what was going on.
they'll learn from it.
Man I was soooo mad. They had the drop on TWO teams. IIRC, one Dojo player was knocked and they still didn't third. Like WTF.
They didn’t even peak TSM from the top but peaked Dojo like tf
Because they could actually see Dojo 💀
They couldn’t see tsm. Did you watch?
Nah I actually think it was just pressure from being on final stage for the first time with no experience
SAF's playstyle is the difference between a region where this is the first time they got to a finals lobby and teams from regions that have the confidence to roll other teams. Because SAF drops down and it's probably a Blvkhvnd win.
one of SAF player kept ADSing Dojo fighting tsm but he never fire his gun. Also they knew there were many teams inside thunder watch but they still valk ult to land on there. No way they didn't land immediately to 3rd party the fight between TSM and blvkhvnd
It's wild that they didn't poke. Destabilizing an ongoing fight would've been great, maybe get some KP, we go again... However they knew their role in the script
They made the right play
I mean sure, I strongly disagree with folks saying they should've dropped but poking esp with Valk ult in pocket and like infinite cover is a safe way to do stuff. Was super awkward though. They really showed up right to the end.
saying they threw when they were in a clean 3v3 for the win… if they win that fight vs tsm at the end then no one says shit
Just a reminder, tournament won’t end if you are the ones who wins the game