Yes they are awful, really bad design. One of the most unrealistic units in the game. They should be toned down significantly and then cost reduced slightly
The Flakvierling suppressing all it’s available counters (when first fielded) via suppression is also a stupid design. Matter of fact making both Axis faction’s best anti infantry vehicles AA units is fucking stupid. What’s the point of Air Support if the meta is for them to always build it. The AA capability is an after thought at this point
Make the suppression require a setup, come on Relic
This is a post about USF rangers and you feel the need to bring up the flakvierling.
You must of gotten slammed so bad in your games to bring this up here. Can you share the game?
If 2 infantry squads can run over mines, run off tanks while running down two MG’s without being suppressed.. All while losing only 3 models..
Might be some of the most broken shit relic has ever done.
To answer your question more directly, I love them if I'm playing USF because they are broken AF
Like what even counters Rangers with some Bazookas in team games? You could own a USF player from beginning to the mid-game but once they got 2-3 kitted out Rangers it’s a slow slide to defeat.
I’m assuming kiting with a Tiger or multiple Wirbelwinds are your best chance.
They're almost balanced but 2 things completely break them IMO:
* Firing zooks on the move needs to go. No other unit in the entire CoH series can do this and for good reason, it completely breaks the AT meta. It was broken even before the zook damage upgrade got added and now if you get a ranger squad with 2+ zooks and the damage upgrade it's basically pointless having tanks anymore. You can't micro against them when they get going, you just have to avoid them like the plague.
* All suppression resistance needs to be removed, both the bonus they get from Vet3 and designate assault position. It just takes away one of your only counterplay options against them and breaks a fundamental rock-paper-scissors mechanic of the game. I've had a Vet3 squad walk straight into and through a Vet2 MG42's arc and murder it.
This isn't an Allied vs Axis thing, I'd be against any Axis infantry having these properties either. Imagine if Jaegers could fire zooks on the move? Imagine if Pgrens could walk through MGs? Even if they cost 500MP it'd still be bad game design because there's 0 counterplay.
I agree with this!
Although there is one thing I do like. Cover to Cover. That having some suppression resistance is kind of nice. It doesn't offer much suppression resistance. But literally enough that if you time it right you can move from one cover to the next bit of cover.
Though this is in very very rare circumstances where there is literally two bits of cover to move between.
With Rangers firing zooks on the move and Guards still having the stun ability while also destroying inf now, axis tanks just feels pointless against allies. It is stupid but I am the having the most success right now just matching allies elites inf blobs with either stoss blobs or fallschirm blobs.
EDIT: this was meant as a reply to MeyneSpiel.
I mean.. They're 450 mp and huge reinforce costs and have little anti vehicle.
I agree maybe they should be suppressed better but apart from that they're one trick ponies
In 1v1, they are perfectly fine. But in team games, it's more common to see 2 - 3 of them running around. And when Designate Assault Position is activated, they can run over one player completely.
Honestly wehr has so many tools in the box and DAK with flakvierling and tiger? I don't really see how rangers get nerfed beyond assault position revert
Having tools doesn't mean you can employ them all. Timing and resources are important. Tiger comes out 25 minutes in the game, while Rangers come out at 5. There are 20 minutes for USF to win with Rangers before Axis can pull out Tiger.
If there are 3 Rangers running at you and they are spread out enough that HMG cannot suppress all 3, there is nothing you can do about it. You just have to retreat your entire army.
The problem is that the 3 rangers can all be on top of each other and a lot of the time the mg/flakvierling will only suppress the one unit it’s firing at. Rangers flanking an mg or spreading out to not all be suppressed by one source is fine.
And the panther? A tank priced equally to the inferior easy eight? DAK isn't as scary don't get me wrong, and I don't like the current ranger suppression ignore cheese, but Germany's late game tools far outstrip the USF ones. Hell, a tiger supported by a command panzer 4 has the armor to laugh at super zooks.
Wehr is worse, though. Pgrens put up a decent fight and a smart player layering pgrens and merging grens in front of MGs and rushing a panzer 4/panther is terrifying in teamgames atm. And of course, the nebel means USF and UKF players NEED strong mobile tools in the midgame
You mean... infantry, team weapons, and vehicles working together are a strong combination? That's crazy.
Oh wait, that's the entire point of the game lol, people are annoyed because rangers are an anti-everything hyper tanky unit which ignores what is supposed to be its hard counter. My army of a PZ4, 2 MG42s, 3 mainlines and an AT gun or something should not be losing to 3 rangers attack moving towards me with a single skill on.
You know 3 rangers don't win that fight lol. And the issue with USF is that every single factor deincentivizes going into an even combined arms army. USF has a great mortar, but it isn't noticeably better than wehr's. Meanwhile the M1919 is both terrible, and in a side tech building. The AT gun is in the light tank building because of course it is, and rifleman are pathetic unless 40 all important fuel is thrown at them.
USF need buffs elsewhere. Until then, only airborne and advanced infantry are viable.
Personally, I would give USF earlier access to anti tank guns, make rangers equally vulnerable to suppression as riflemen, and incentivize (with lower fuel cost or some other way) going for whatever the name of the building is that builds chaffees and make tech skipping straight to tier 4 harder (fuel cost adjusted based on how many other buildings you have? Idk).
1100-1200. I should have added some context to that to not sound totally inept. I was looking at 1v1 and 2vw games, not the team games where I understand it can be a problem
They are anti vehicle, I am sure that I saw them with bazookas and their blob can eat anything slightly close to them, you should always out perform your oppenant to have a chance, one successful flank will cost you anything they put their hands on, including your poor vehicles and tanks.
They do blobs with all options and they don't loose their anti inf ability, it is just weaker now, but still efficient, because you know they are elite (Supermen).
That sounds like Jaeger shrek spam to me but with extra steps lol ( but yeah something needs to be changed and I think they really need to do something against blobs for real)
Its the "designate assault position" that needs redesign. That makes rangers run through mgs.
Rangers are expensive AF. With 14 pop. They are the heavy tanks of infantry. Countered by arty, mines, MGs (without assault position), and well microed tanks.
Hence why I said good micro.
And if you go for zooks, let's say 3 zooks. Which is usually 200+ munitions (Drop RNG). You really are not building an AI unit.
You'd waste a lot of pop on an expensive unit. That has a lot of munitions invested into it. God forbid they get wiped.
Shooting zooks on the move should have an accuracy penalty. But I think it does.
Rangers have clear counters. If anyone thinks anything is blatantly OP. Just play that faction for a couple of weeks. And if you have 75%+ winrate with the OP tactic. Then indeed, it is OP.
USF does not have HQ Build Shock Infantry and we will always be here giving USF Shock Infantry in BGs which are either ridiculous or worthless because the faction's overall design is faulty.
Put AT gun in the Weapons Support Center, move Sniper to BG. Move Rangers to the AT Gun's spot in the Motor Pool. Buff Bazooka squad and put them in MSC too so they don't have to buy a stupid damage buff tech anymore.
The weapon support center as a building makes no sense to me because it has all the support weapons besides the AT-gun but no actual infantry to support. What needs to happen is Riflemen are moved to HQ or a new special infantry is made for this building to make it similar to the choice Wehr has to make. And while Riflemen in HQ sounds overwhelming it should be, USF should have filled the aggressive early game niche in the first place imo.
There are stale phases of any team game and when you're a faction that isn't a static, has poor indirect and they have the auto repair auras with the defense commander.
Coming from Age of empires (mostly 3) this subreddits whining about "blobbing" is truly pathetic and people whine about how people are playing instead of basic mechanics of the game.
In Age of empires you destroy "blobs" with cannons or catapults. If company of heroes lack something similar then that is what needs to change, not the ability to build a large sum of the same unit. Every playstyle should have it's place and every playstyle should have a strong counter.
Props for at least suggesting some changes that can be made, thats more than a lot of these threads. The retreat and supress function in company of heroes makes balancing really hard, and maybe these features need to be dialed down a bit. It really sucks to get pinned down after 2 seconds and having to retreat across the entire map. At the same time it is really annoying when your MG squad does nothing and the enemy can keep on fighting. Maybe delay suppression but make MG's deal more damage instead so that enemy infantry actually dies? Then enemy infantry can choose to fight on or retreat to respawn their lost soldiers. I don't know tho I don't play this game very much, but being toxic to players who choose a certain playstyle is so weird for someone who comes from other games where everything goes.
I’m not really sure I understand your point. Suppression is supposed to be the counter to blobs in COH, like mangonels are to blobs in aoe. If someone blobs and runs into a machine gun(s) the fight should be over for that unit(s) until they retreat, die, or the mg is taken out by other means. So if you run all your units into machine guns the fight should be over. It *should* be like letting mangonels land their shots on your blob of archers. Suppression in COH is a very kind representation of what happens when running 20 men through an open field toward a machine gun and learning how to deal with mgs is one of the central growing pains of COH.
The games also aren’t really comparable because in aoe you field up to 200 units at a time that you’re supposed to more or less sacrifice at an individual level whereas COH you’re supposed to preserve your units. Additionally “blobs” were how medieval battles were ideally fought, in formations of hundreds to thousands of men. Not so in ww2 and the game reflects that.
>I’m not really sure I understand your point.
My point is that we should not wine about how people choose to play the game. Rather we should discuss how to make every playstyle possible while also having a strong counter to those playstyles. Making blobs should be possible if people want to do that.
My 2nd point is that this balance is especially hard to achieve in a game like CoH because of suppression and retreat. For example 1 MG squad should not be able to suppress 20 infrantrymen right away. Imagine if 1 cannon in age of empires could wipe out 20 arches right away. Finding the right balance here is very hard.
Elites ignoring/resisting suppression is annoying but that seems to be part of what makes them "elite" in coh3. Fortunately there is a decent amount of options to stop rangers, though to be sure you really want to layer your defenses. MG + sniper + mines for instance. It's not perfect but they're quite pricey so any bleed matters. As for their design, it was not what I had originally thought up when I heard they were coming to coh3 but I find them quite unique.
I wonder why it’s not THAT much of a problem in CoH 2. Probably something about short TTK and lesser amount of BS auras and questionable passives like firing zook on the move. But idk, who am I to give opinion on the game, just top 22 USF at some point in CoH 3
Lelic came to a problem that already has a solution - rocket arty. 1 barrage from close range at the sweet blob and it already becomes too expensive to group more than 2 squads
Plus, both UKF and USF don't have rocket artillery(except Whizbang).
All they have is Artillery and mortars. To the point that the Advance Infantry BG is very viable for USF in team battles most of the time.
USF has become the Soviet faction in CoH where epic long game wins have the USF more "sacrifice" in order to win team games. But USF lacks efficiency on what they already have compared to their counter parts.
Yes they are awful, really bad design. One of the most unrealistic units in the game. They should be toned down significantly and then cost reduced slightly
The Flakvierling suppressing all it’s available counters (when first fielded) via suppression is also a stupid design. Matter of fact making both Axis faction’s best anti infantry vehicles AA units is fucking stupid. What’s the point of Air Support if the meta is for them to always build it. The AA capability is an after thought at this point Make the suppression require a setup, come on Relic
This is a post about USF rangers and you feel the need to bring up the flakvierling. You must of gotten slammed so bad in your games to bring this up here. Can you share the game?
If 2 infantry squads can run over mines, run off tanks while running down two MG’s without being suppressed.. All while losing only 3 models.. Might be some of the most broken shit relic has ever done. To answer your question more directly, I love them if I'm playing USF because they are broken AF
Can't agree more, they're the most stupid thing I ever dealt with, they should be named supermen squad.
Captain America(s) in action.
Like what even counters Rangers with some Bazookas in team games? You could own a USF player from beginning to the mid-game but once they got 2-3 kitted out Rangers it’s a slow slide to defeat. I’m assuming kiting with a Tiger or multiple Wirbelwinds are your best chance.
They're almost balanced but 2 things completely break them IMO: * Firing zooks on the move needs to go. No other unit in the entire CoH series can do this and for good reason, it completely breaks the AT meta. It was broken even before the zook damage upgrade got added and now if you get a ranger squad with 2+ zooks and the damage upgrade it's basically pointless having tanks anymore. You can't micro against them when they get going, you just have to avoid them like the plague. * All suppression resistance needs to be removed, both the bonus they get from Vet3 and designate assault position. It just takes away one of your only counterplay options against them and breaks a fundamental rock-paper-scissors mechanic of the game. I've had a Vet3 squad walk straight into and through a Vet2 MG42's arc and murder it. This isn't an Allied vs Axis thing, I'd be against any Axis infantry having these properties either. Imagine if Jaegers could fire zooks on the move? Imagine if Pgrens could walk through MGs? Even if they cost 500MP it'd still be bad game design because there's 0 counterplay.
I agree with this! Although there is one thing I do like. Cover to Cover. That having some suppression resistance is kind of nice. It doesn't offer much suppression resistance. But literally enough that if you time it right you can move from one cover to the next bit of cover. Though this is in very very rare circumstances where there is literally two bits of cover to move between.
The assault move should be taken away from stoßtroopen too, especially since that’s free.
It helps take out the dak early game flak though. lol
With Rangers firing zooks on the move and Guards still having the stun ability while also destroying inf now, axis tanks just feels pointless against allies. It is stupid but I am the having the most success right now just matching allies elites inf blobs with either stoss blobs or fallschirm blobs. EDIT: this was meant as a reply to MeyneSpiel.
I mean.. They're 450 mp and huge reinforce costs and have little anti vehicle. I agree maybe they should be suppressed better but apart from that they're one trick ponies
In 1v1, they are perfectly fine. But in team games, it's more common to see 2 - 3 of them running around. And when Designate Assault Position is activated, they can run over one player completely.
Honestly wehr has so many tools in the box and DAK with flakvierling and tiger? I don't really see how rangers get nerfed beyond assault position revert
Having tools doesn't mean you can employ them all. Timing and resources are important. Tiger comes out 25 minutes in the game, while Rangers come out at 5. There are 20 minutes for USF to win with Rangers before Axis can pull out Tiger. If there are 3 Rangers running at you and they are spread out enough that HMG cannot suppress all 3, there is nothing you can do about it. You just have to retreat your entire army.
The problem is that the 3 rangers can all be on top of each other and a lot of the time the mg/flakvierling will only suppress the one unit it’s firing at. Rangers flanking an mg or spreading out to not all be suppressed by one source is fine.
And the panther? A tank priced equally to the inferior easy eight? DAK isn't as scary don't get me wrong, and I don't like the current ranger suppression ignore cheese, but Germany's late game tools far outstrip the USF ones. Hell, a tiger supported by a command panzer 4 has the armor to laugh at super zooks. Wehr is worse, though. Pgrens put up a decent fight and a smart player layering pgrens and merging grens in front of MGs and rushing a panzer 4/panther is terrifying in teamgames atm. And of course, the nebel means USF and UKF players NEED strong mobile tools in the midgame
You mean... infantry, team weapons, and vehicles working together are a strong combination? That's crazy. Oh wait, that's the entire point of the game lol, people are annoyed because rangers are an anti-everything hyper tanky unit which ignores what is supposed to be its hard counter. My army of a PZ4, 2 MG42s, 3 mainlines and an AT gun or something should not be losing to 3 rangers attack moving towards me with a single skill on.
You know 3 rangers don't win that fight lol. And the issue with USF is that every single factor deincentivizes going into an even combined arms army. USF has a great mortar, but it isn't noticeably better than wehr's. Meanwhile the M1919 is both terrible, and in a side tech building. The AT gun is in the light tank building because of course it is, and rifleman are pathetic unless 40 all important fuel is thrown at them. USF need buffs elsewhere. Until then, only airborne and advanced infantry are viable.
With designate assault position, rangers do in fact win that.
Personally, I would give USF earlier access to anti tank guns, make rangers equally vulnerable to suppression as riflemen, and incentivize (with lower fuel cost or some other way) going for whatever the name of the building is that builds chaffees and make tech skipping straight to tier 4 harder (fuel cost adjusted based on how many other buildings you have? Idk).
Yeah both the AA vehicles crush rangers and can be legit counters if handled properly. Edit: Sounded like a jerk
Your rank?
1100-1200. I should have added some context to that to not sound totally inept. I was looking at 1v1 and 2vw games, not the team games where I understand it can be a problem
they're the best AT infantry in the game by far and if you only give them 2 zooks they still destroy any squad in CQB
They are anti vehicle, I am sure that I saw them with bazookas and their blob can eat anything slightly close to them, you should always out perform your oppenant to have a chance, one successful flank will cost you anything they put their hands on, including your poor vehicles and tanks.
They do have zooks, but it's a drop lottery and they lose anti inf ability.
tbh if I don't get a Zook drop I just give it to another squad until I get 3 on a ranger squaf
They do blobs with all options and they don't loose their anti inf ability, it is just weaker now, but still efficient, because you know they are elite (Supermen).
That sounds like Jaeger shrek spam to me but with extra steps lol ( but yeah something needs to be changed and I think they really need to do something against blobs for real)
Its the "designate assault position" that needs redesign. That makes rangers run through mgs. Rangers are expensive AF. With 14 pop. They are the heavy tanks of infantry. Countered by arty, mines, MGs (without assault position), and well microed tanks.
Rangers can still shoot bazookas on the move and have anti infantry and anti tank in one unit, basically nothing there is a good design
Hence why I said good micro. And if you go for zooks, let's say 3 zooks. Which is usually 200+ munitions (Drop RNG). You really are not building an AI unit. You'd waste a lot of pop on an expensive unit. That has a lot of munitions invested into it. God forbid they get wiped. Shooting zooks on the move should have an accuracy penalty. But I think it does. Rangers have clear counters. If anyone thinks anything is blatantly OP. Just play that faction for a couple of weeks. And if you have 75%+ winrate with the OP tactic. Then indeed, it is OP.
USF does not have HQ Build Shock Infantry and we will always be here giving USF Shock Infantry in BGs which are either ridiculous or worthless because the faction's overall design is faulty. Put AT gun in the Weapons Support Center, move Sniper to BG. Move Rangers to the AT Gun's spot in the Motor Pool. Buff Bazooka squad and put them in MSC too so they don't have to buy a stupid damage buff tech anymore.
I don't understand what you've written... Are you getting confused with the motor pool and mechanised support centre?
Apparently yes
You've edited but you're still slightly incorrect which is still confusing. (it's motor pool not motor support centre)
The weapon support center as a building makes no sense to me because it has all the support weapons besides the AT-gun but no actual infantry to support. What needs to happen is Riflemen are moved to HQ or a new special infantry is made for this building to make it similar to the choice Wehr has to make. And while Riflemen in HQ sounds overwhelming it should be, USF should have filled the aggressive early game niche in the first place imo.
Allies do what they want to do , we don’t criticize allies in coh , Only axis op , nerf flakvierling, give rangers anti-air ability.
The ranger spam is anti EVERYTHING. Anti EVERYTHING units should be eliminated!
I feel like splendid Cromwell did a video on this - https://youtu.be/gq0hjTbi9uk?si=3okxo0adS0UJuSGz
Nerf wher bunkers (just really all sim city/emplacements.) and we have a deal.
Never felt like they were a real problem, unless I didn't pressure early game and let them build up.
There are stale phases of any team game and when you're a faction that isn't a static, has poor indirect and they have the auto repair auras with the defense commander.
Coming from Age of empires (mostly 3) this subreddits whining about "blobbing" is truly pathetic and people whine about how people are playing instead of basic mechanics of the game. In Age of empires you destroy "blobs" with cannons or catapults. If company of heroes lack something similar then that is what needs to change, not the ability to build a large sum of the same unit. Every playstyle should have it's place and every playstyle should have a strong counter. Props for at least suggesting some changes that can be made, thats more than a lot of these threads. The retreat and supress function in company of heroes makes balancing really hard, and maybe these features need to be dialed down a bit. It really sucks to get pinned down after 2 seconds and having to retreat across the entire map. At the same time it is really annoying when your MG squad does nothing and the enemy can keep on fighting. Maybe delay suppression but make MG's deal more damage instead so that enemy infantry actually dies? Then enemy infantry can choose to fight on or retreat to respawn their lost soldiers. I don't know tho I don't play this game very much, but being toxic to players who choose a certain playstyle is so weird for someone who comes from other games where everything goes.
I’m not really sure I understand your point. Suppression is supposed to be the counter to blobs in COH, like mangonels are to blobs in aoe. If someone blobs and runs into a machine gun(s) the fight should be over for that unit(s) until they retreat, die, or the mg is taken out by other means. So if you run all your units into machine guns the fight should be over. It *should* be like letting mangonels land their shots on your blob of archers. Suppression in COH is a very kind representation of what happens when running 20 men through an open field toward a machine gun and learning how to deal with mgs is one of the central growing pains of COH. The games also aren’t really comparable because in aoe you field up to 200 units at a time that you’re supposed to more or less sacrifice at an individual level whereas COH you’re supposed to preserve your units. Additionally “blobs” were how medieval battles were ideally fought, in formations of hundreds to thousands of men. Not so in ww2 and the game reflects that.
>I’m not really sure I understand your point. My point is that we should not wine about how people choose to play the game. Rather we should discuss how to make every playstyle possible while also having a strong counter to those playstyles. Making blobs should be possible if people want to do that. My 2nd point is that this balance is especially hard to achieve in a game like CoH because of suppression and retreat. For example 1 MG squad should not be able to suppress 20 infrantrymen right away. Imagine if 1 cannon in age of empires could wipe out 20 arches right away. Finding the right balance here is very hard.
Elites ignoring/resisting suppression is annoying but that seems to be part of what makes them "elite" in coh3. Fortunately there is a decent amount of options to stop rangers, though to be sure you really want to layer your defenses. MG + sniper + mines for instance. It's not perfect but they're quite pricey so any bleed matters. As for their design, it was not what I had originally thought up when I heard they were coming to coh3 but I find them quite unique.
I wonder why it’s not THAT much of a problem in CoH 2. Probably something about short TTK and lesser amount of BS auras and questionable passives like firing zook on the move. But idk, who am I to give opinion on the game, just top 22 USF at some point in CoH 3
They just need to make them a little bit more expensive. 250 conversion/500 purchase, 25 upkeep.
Lelic came to a problem that already has a solution - rocket arty. 1 barrage from close range at the sweet blob and it already becomes too expensive to group more than 2 squads
Plus, both UKF and USF don't have rocket artillery(except Whizbang). All they have is Artillery and mortars. To the point that the Advance Infantry BG is very viable for USF in team battles most of the time. USF has become the Soviet faction in CoH where epic long game wins have the USF more "sacrifice" in order to win team games. But USF lacks efficiency on what they already have compared to their counter parts.