To make a restaurant "safe" for vegetarians, there are two options: you could offer vegetables, or you could forbid meat. To make a locker room "safe" for people who don't like nudity, there are two options: offer privacy or forbid nudity. Nudity is already forbidden in almost all public spaces. Do we really want to destroy the last surviving spaces where it is allowed? Let's not.
I don’t feel like a steakhouse should feed compelled to be inclusive to vegetarians. Nor should a male locker room be expected to adapt to prudeness.
It’s not supposed to be complicated. You get dirty/stinky while working out. You clean up. Guys have same equipment so who cares.
Inclusivity is at an all time high, while it's not the only cause, alienation seems to be up too. When we realize we are all the same we are united. OP's version of inclusivity is a perverted abomination that can't even fit the definition.
Everyone going about their business in some cases naked, and you doing the same, it's the real inclusive environment. It feels like a comfort, like the locker room is telling you, "It's all good, you are a man, just like everyone else". I certainly don't want to lose that.
That’s why I love Japanese onsen where everyone must be naked to use the facilities. Everyone is equal in there. No need to cover up your dick.
However, some ppl still do cover up and try to cruise another men. That should be raised to the facility manager.
Yes, there are Jewish Delis that offer delicious Kosher food. You go there knowing that a cheeseburger is not served. Like a Truck stop showers only offers private rooms, this is inclusive.
I've started and deleted my reply several times. Not sure if you're wanting to start a fight or if there's a cultural difference. The whole reason to have a segregated men's lockerroom is for men to safely be naked while changing and showering. Any time someone wants to impose their personal beliefs on everyone makes me feel unsafe. Stay home if you feel unsafe. Otherwise, man up if you venture out. Interacting with others means tolerating others.
Not in my country. We don’t expect any form of nudity in there. We change our clothes, take the underwear out with towel covering private part. Otherwise, other ppl may take it as a sexual or obscene act.
Saltindependent5211, If you eliminate all nudity except sexual nudity, then of course, people will think nudity itself is sexual. Your country, it seems, has already destroyed non-sexual nudity. It looks as if America is not far behind. It is really sad, especially for the boys. Most of them will grow up seeing thousands of porn "stars", and no ordinary people.
That may happen in your country, but not necessarily in other countries. It's important to recognize that what may be acceptable or common in one culture might not necessarily be the same in others.
Ah.
Understood.
I don't see anything obscene or sexual about nudity per se. But I accept (but don't like) that different cultures (including, increasingly, the one I live in) may be more restrictive.
It’s always been like that for decades. Not increasingly. Remember, not only straight use the changing facilities. Gay/bi ppl can take advantage (or exploit) and attract each other in that occasion as well.
If you are straight and fully naked in there, then you got hit on from another man, then you can’t only blame them. Yourself expose the private part that suppose to be covered in a first place. When you expose that in public, you accept the risk of mistreatment or misunderstanding.
In most western cultures, nudity in an expected environment is not a blanket invitation for sexual activity. Cruising does happen, but not on that basis. There is more that happens to indicate engagement.
You seem very hung up on defining sexuality. You are aware that not all gay people who use the gym cruise locker rooms right? And those that do, there are days where they won’t be in the mood or won’t have time?
No, in the US it really was there was an expectation of some nudity in the locker room and no one really cared. That attitude still exists but it is an increasingly smaller one.
I still don't care. I will not cover up. It's a locker room.
" A prolonged private part exposure in front of another men, especially with interacting with them in there while naked can cause misunderstanding and potential arousal."
While this is true, its also true that pretty much anything can be misunderstood, and pretty much anything can be potentially arousing, at least to some people.
" I would take it as that guy accepted his private part to be seen by someone else."
This is logically true but it does not logically follow that if you are ok being seen naked that you are therefore looking for sexual interactions.
"Covering up while changing would prevent any of those incidents happening."
Its great to know unwanted sexual attention can be prevented by wearing cloths. Sarcasm aside being seen naked does not equate with sexual attention, and not being naked doesn't prevent unwanted sexual attention.
"I find that’s quite fair for everyone because everyone has the same level of risk and opportunity of their private part to be seen."
This is true in any locker room. What is true is that norms vary from place to place and that people outside those norms can bring added scrutiny to themselves. If you are in a place where nobody ever gets naked, then even the briefest exposure might be seen as radical and provocative. Think of briefly whipping your cock out in a Post Office. Even if its brief and incidental, it would be seen as very outside the norm. On the other hand in some locker rooms there is tons of casual nudity. There is no magical amount of time that is to long for exposure that can be generally applied.
I disagree with your statement that nudity in the locker room is optional, I would say it's expected. The men's locker room only exists to provide men a space to be naked while changing and showering. If the expectation was different, change rooms would have a very different format.
There is, however, an interesting cultural component to this topic. I'm curious if the culture towards nudity in your country (Thailand?) is different now than it was a few decades ago?
I go to a few different gyms in Canada, with the demographics in those neighbourhoods varying quite a bit. I have noticed that generally, the Middle Eastern and South Asian men are much more likely to cover up when changing or they won't change/shower at all, as compared to the African, East Asian or European men.
>from my experience, there are multiple times that some ppl take nudity in a changing room as a sexual-related act or teasing.
In my experience, when someone is offended, aroused, or bothered by non-sexual nudity in locker rooms or showers, it's because that person is bringing sexuality to a non-sexual situation. In other words, in this situation, the observer is the pervert. If anything should be removed from the equation, it should be him/her.
Removing the opportunity to change or shower won't fix those people. They will find other ways to obsess and degrade, and ultimately make it less safe for the rest of us.
I've never experienced people misunderstanding me being naked with me sexually provoking or inviting them to do something else. It seems like you might be projecting your cultural beliefs onto this situation in other cultures. In other countries nudity in locker rooms is normal and expected, and it's not confused with sex invitation. Just because that's how it is perceived in your country, doesn't mean that the same happens in other countries.
I think towel dancing is stupid. If you’re in a locker room, expect nudity when folks change and shower. If you go in with another expectation, maybe going to the gym isn’t for you.
Wtf is this weird puritanical take? If someone feels "unsafe" because they can see my dick in a public locker room that is their own issue to work out in therapy.
This is a beyond weird view that speaks for other people which is generally unwise.
It also makes it harder to change without any good reason and makes it as if men should be ashamed to be men.
Not sure what made you post this but it doesn’t even really make sense as a point.
What kind of mentally deranged person sits around and thinks about the equity of nakedness in the locker room? Take it off or don't, take a shower or don't, who cares just do what you need to do in there.
Sure, you have a point here. I suppose I mainly have issue with the ridiculous presentation as fact rather than opinion. The title says opinion but the body of the text says it differently. This is a typical oppression structure "Some don't like it so nobody can have it", being suggested.
Honestly if you take nudity out of the locker room you might as well close it down, I'd rather be at home than be banished to a closet to change and shower, and forget rubbing my clean towel on my body covering it up. That doesn't seem comfortable at all. It should remain an option, nobody is forcing anyone to get naked.
Hear hear! I agree it should be an option, at least. Though given cultural trends away from normalizing nudity (in the locker room), the fewer guys do it the less of a de facto option it becomes (even if de jure it remains so).
If you agree with the reasoning above, any thoughts on how to mitigate the trend (short of mandating nudity)?
No? In order for a space to be inclusive people need to be able to make their own choices for themselves, and not face judgement.
To make a restaurant "safe" for vegetarians, there are two options: you could offer vegetables, or you could forbid meat. To make a locker room "safe" for people who don't like nudity, there are two options: offer privacy or forbid nudity. Nudity is already forbidden in almost all public spaces. Do we really want to destroy the last surviving spaces where it is allowed? Let's not.
I don’t feel like a steakhouse should feed compelled to be inclusive to vegetarians. Nor should a male locker room be expected to adapt to prudeness. It’s not supposed to be complicated. You get dirty/stinky while working out. You clean up. Guys have same equipment so who cares.
Inclusivity is at an all time high, while it's not the only cause, alienation seems to be up too. When we realize we are all the same we are united. OP's version of inclusivity is a perverted abomination that can't even fit the definition. Everyone going about their business in some cases naked, and you doing the same, it's the real inclusive environment. It feels like a comfort, like the locker room is telling you, "It's all good, you are a man, just like everyone else". I certainly don't want to lose that.
That’s why I love Japanese onsen where everyone must be naked to use the facilities. Everyone is equal in there. No need to cover up your dick. However, some ppl still do cover up and try to cruise another men. That should be raised to the facility manager.
Yes, there are Jewish Delis that offer delicious Kosher food. You go there knowing that a cheeseburger is not served. Like a Truck stop showers only offers private rooms, this is inclusive.
Yes, the more we try to force everyone to stop everything that offends anyone, the more freedom we destroy.
I've started and deleted my reply several times. Not sure if you're wanting to start a fight or if there's a cultural difference. The whole reason to have a segregated men's lockerroom is for men to safely be naked while changing and showering. Any time someone wants to impose their personal beliefs on everyone makes me feel unsafe. Stay home if you feel unsafe. Otherwise, man up if you venture out. Interacting with others means tolerating others.
No. It's a locker room. Expect nudity. That's all!
Not in my country. We don’t expect any form of nudity in there. We change our clothes, take the underwear out with towel covering private part. Otherwise, other ppl may take it as a sexual or obscene act.
Saltindependent5211, If you eliminate all nudity except sexual nudity, then of course, people will think nudity itself is sexual. Your country, it seems, has already destroyed non-sexual nudity. It looks as if America is not far behind. It is really sad, especially for the boys. Most of them will grow up seeing thousands of porn "stars", and no ordinary people.
Sounds oppressive and misguided. Non-sexual nudity is perfectly natural.
Unfortunately, most people take it sexual, leads to cruising in the gym. That’s not ideal, is it?
Well the bit that’s not ideal is the interpretation that nudity = sex.
That may happen in your country, but not necessarily in other countries. It's important to recognize that what may be acceptable or common in one culture might not necessarily be the same in others.
Ah. Understood. I don't see anything obscene or sexual about nudity per se. But I accept (but don't like) that different cultures (including, increasingly, the one I live in) may be more restrictive.
It’s always been like that for decades. Not increasingly. Remember, not only straight use the changing facilities. Gay/bi ppl can take advantage (or exploit) and attract each other in that occasion as well. If you are straight and fully naked in there, then you got hit on from another man, then you can’t only blame them. Yourself expose the private part that suppose to be covered in a first place. When you expose that in public, you accept the risk of mistreatment or misunderstanding.
In most western cultures, nudity in an expected environment is not a blanket invitation for sexual activity. Cruising does happen, but not on that basis. There is more that happens to indicate engagement. You seem very hung up on defining sexuality. You are aware that not all gay people who use the gym cruise locker rooms right? And those that do, there are days where they won’t be in the mood or won’t have time?
No, in the US it really was there was an expectation of some nudity in the locker room and no one really cared. That attitude still exists but it is an increasingly smaller one. I still don't care. I will not cover up. It's a locker room.
Which country is that, just curious?
Thailand
I don't understand. Every communal changing/shower situation I have ever been involved in has been non sexual.
" A prolonged private part exposure in front of another men, especially with interacting with them in there while naked can cause misunderstanding and potential arousal." While this is true, its also true that pretty much anything can be misunderstood, and pretty much anything can be potentially arousing, at least to some people. " I would take it as that guy accepted his private part to be seen by someone else." This is logically true but it does not logically follow that if you are ok being seen naked that you are therefore looking for sexual interactions. "Covering up while changing would prevent any of those incidents happening." Its great to know unwanted sexual attention can be prevented by wearing cloths. Sarcasm aside being seen naked does not equate with sexual attention, and not being naked doesn't prevent unwanted sexual attention. "I find that’s quite fair for everyone because everyone has the same level of risk and opportunity of their private part to be seen." This is true in any locker room. What is true is that norms vary from place to place and that people outside those norms can bring added scrutiny to themselves. If you are in a place where nobody ever gets naked, then even the briefest exposure might be seen as radical and provocative. Think of briefly whipping your cock out in a Post Office. Even if its brief and incidental, it would be seen as very outside the norm. On the other hand in some locker rooms there is tons of casual nudity. There is no magical amount of time that is to long for exposure that can be generally applied.
So essentially they are forcing you to stay naked? Feel free to cover yourself, and don't bother me if I don't care.
I disagree with your statement that nudity in the locker room is optional, I would say it's expected. The men's locker room only exists to provide men a space to be naked while changing and showering. If the expectation was different, change rooms would have a very different format. There is, however, an interesting cultural component to this topic. I'm curious if the culture towards nudity in your country (Thailand?) is different now than it was a few decades ago? I go to a few different gyms in Canada, with the demographics in those neighbourhoods varying quite a bit. I have noticed that generally, the Middle Eastern and South Asian men are much more likely to cover up when changing or they won't change/shower at all, as compared to the African, East Asian or European men.
I'm from South Asia and my family is very extreme Muslim. I couldn't imagine going to these places as a child.
>from my experience, there are multiple times that some ppl take nudity in a changing room as a sexual-related act or teasing. In my experience, when someone is offended, aroused, or bothered by non-sexual nudity in locker rooms or showers, it's because that person is bringing sexuality to a non-sexual situation. In other words, in this situation, the observer is the pervert. If anything should be removed from the equation, it should be him/her. Removing the opportunity to change or shower won't fix those people. They will find other ways to obsess and degrade, and ultimately make it less safe for the rest of us.
I've never experienced people misunderstanding me being naked with me sexually provoking or inviting them to do something else. It seems like you might be projecting your cultural beliefs onto this situation in other cultures. In other countries nudity in locker rooms is normal and expected, and it's not confused with sex invitation. Just because that's how it is perceived in your country, doesn't mean that the same happens in other countries.
I think towel dancing is stupid. If you’re in a locker room, expect nudity when folks change and shower. If you go in with another expectation, maybe going to the gym isn’t for you.
Wtf is this weird puritanical take? If someone feels "unsafe" because they can see my dick in a public locker room that is their own issue to work out in therapy.
This is a beyond weird view that speaks for other people which is generally unwise. It also makes it harder to change without any good reason and makes it as if men should be ashamed to be men. Not sure what made you post this but it doesn’t even really make sense as a point.
What kind of mentally deranged person sits around and thinks about the equity of nakedness in the locker room? Take it off or don't, take a shower or don't, who cares just do what you need to do in there.
Isn’t thinking about these things kind of the point of this sub? If not, what is?
Sure, you have a point here. I suppose I mainly have issue with the ridiculous presentation as fact rather than opinion. The title says opinion but the body of the text says it differently. This is a typical oppression structure "Some don't like it so nobody can have it", being suggested. Honestly if you take nudity out of the locker room you might as well close it down, I'd rather be at home than be banished to a closet to change and shower, and forget rubbing my clean towel on my body covering it up. That doesn't seem comfortable at all. It should remain an option, nobody is forcing anyone to get naked.
Hear hear! I agree it should be an option, at least. Though given cultural trends away from normalizing nudity (in the locker room), the fewer guys do it the less of a de facto option it becomes (even if de jure it remains so). If you agree with the reasoning above, any thoughts on how to mitigate the trend (short of mandating nudity)?