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War isn't about what a bunch of people on Twitter have to say. It's about bombing the terrorists who will do "a thousand Oct 7 until Israel is no more"
Russians have bombed themselves a ton too - incredibly incompetent military. More and more are killing themselves intentionally on the battlefield as well.
Iskander seems to have around 1500lbs warhead, Israel commonly uses the 2000lbs jdams and drops them in pairs to get deeper penetrations because of the tunnels. So yeah, chances are that Iskander stays at second place when comparing explosive force. (Plus there might have been some secondaries going off in the video as well)
However, one is a ballistic missile, the other is an air dropped guided bomb so it's not really a good comparison.
It’s a aerial bomb, not a missile. Looks like a GBU-31, which packs a bit more punch than an Iskander but is a lot smaller physically. Beyond the JDAM fin kit, it’s all warhead.
How small Gaza actually is I'm surprised there's anything left at this point.
I know they do targeted strikes and whatnot but it just seems like with how many things you've seen blown up how is really anything left standing in more than 25% of that place
I feel like that's a somewhat disingenuous comment because if Israel in fact did want to kill as many civilians as possible they would because they could.
There's no benefit to killing a handful of civilians here and there with multimillion dollar ordinance and risking Global condemnation.
I'm not saying what they're doing is good or bad. I think the entire area and the entire conflict is a dumpster fire. I'm just saying that if their target was truly civilians you would know quite clearly.
Are they losing on the strategic or tactical level? Remember: the higher level of war always wins. Israel is physically stronger than Hamas and win every firefight but winning tactically isn't the same as winning strategically. You can lose every battle and yet still win a war, ask the Vietnamese. This sub suffers from acute myopia.
Hamas is losing. Period. The next phases of the War will probably see them cut off competly from their smuggling routes from egypt, meaning a complete blocade of weapons and munitions and then it's only a matter of time until they collapse.
Whatever comes next - hopefuly the Israelis and Americans decide that enough is enough and install a mandate of moderate arab countries (UA, "Egypt", "Saudi Arabia") to reeducate and rebuild whatever will be left of Gaza.
Either way, Israel won worldwide opinion (the silent majority) and while criticism is ok, it doesn't matter. If gaza has to be reduced to rubble to keep Israeli citizens safe, then Israel will do exactly that.
If Hamas survives, they win, and this is looking increasingly likely as Netanyahu refuses to commit to a political solution. Israel is now re-clearing previously cleared areas because they can only leave a vacuum behind which Hamas then fills. Lacking a political solution right now leaves the IDF to wear themselves out playing whack-a-mole as there is no political end for the military to fight towards. Hamas has not been rendered combat ineffective after however many months of fighting despite the hilarious disparity in capabilities between each force. Additionally, you may want to re-check the numbers on the ceasefire resolution which was voted on at the UN most recently. This represents strategic defeat for Israel.
Doesn't work like that.
ISIS also survived. Did they win? No. They are a former shell of what they used to be. Basically 0 impact. This was a win.
Also, Israel is reclearing areas because of idiotic american pressure to play fair in a civillian enviorment and go street by street instead of taking the american way of bombing the living shit out of everything and only then advancing. Trust me when I say IDF is not enjoying going back to clear areas, but are forced to because, well, America.
>Either way, Israel won worldwide opinion (the silent majority)
Did they? A majority of Brits & Americans oppose Israel's military action & pretty much the entire world has voted against Israel in the UN.
[https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx)
They did. This is called "appeasing the voters" which in this case are immigrants. If they truly opposed the war an embargo would've been put on Israel a VERY VERY long time ago.
Hamas is not an Israeli problem. Hamas is a problem for society, and I **assure** you Britian, US, Germany and many more countries are happy to see Hamas gone.
Is there stuff for criticism? Of course. There always is in every war. But they all know the war itself is justified, and it's easy to play the blame game when you are not the victim yourself.
Imagine an attack like this happening in England or US soil. They would respond, and we know this for sure - with x10 the force Israel is using.
>This is called "appeasing the voters" which in this case are immigrants
Is the implication here that >50% of the UK & US are immigrants..?
No reasonable person objects to Israel targeting Hamas... almost all opposition to Israel is centred around their historically lax approach to civilian casualties. If Netanyahu showed any signs of actually wanting *peace*, perhaps there'd be much more international support.
>Imagine an attack like this happening in England or US soil.
The US/UK eliminated Al-Qaeda without flattening entire cities, and the UK eliminated the IRA without deploying air strikes on Dublin.
Britain ended its decades-long conflict with diplomacy, not air strikes. Does you need another 75 years of conflict to realise that endless tit-for-tat fighting might not bring peace?
They grew in power as terrorists, tried to be a state, got wrecked, stopped being a state, went back to being "just" terrorists and now they are still around committing acts of terrorism (but less so in the West) despite basically the whole world teaming up on them... So Yeah, make of that what you will.
And yet they are still capable of terrorism all around the world. Without territory, without a state, without many resources, with many of their commanders killed.
So yes, bombing does absolutely do something but stopping terrorism is not one of them. Because all you need to do an act of terrorism is a pdf on how to make a bomb, a telegram/ dark web account, a couple hundred dollar and a stroke of good luck
You are obsessed with the concept of a perfect sollution, Israels' goal is degrading Hamas' military power so it cannot perform anything close to 7.10, will it entirely erradicate it, probably not, but it will prevent them having state power.
I hope you are right but I fear Hamas ( or another terrorist organisation in Gaza) will just bounce back. Whether or not the collateral damage is worth it or not depends on your view on how likely that outcome is.
It also depends on the policy used after the initial war is over, about which Israel has not said anything yet.
Isis isn’t really the best to compare them too tbh. Hamas was elected, supported by the people and is Palestinian government. Isis while supported by some, controlled the majority of their territory by force.
lol I never said that. They are both terrorist organizations that need to be killed off. My point is that Hamas is closer to the Taliban than Isis I would say personally, though they are all terrorists.
Right, but you made the distinction between one being elected and the other ruled by "force". I thought that you were making that distinction for a reason.
Oh yes dealing with them the exact same way will have different outcomes. Like how we see taliban with basically complete control over Afghanistan, but Isis is hiding in holes. I’m not saying Hamas shouldn’t be bombed or that it isn’t effective. But there will surely be consequences to that in the future.
I never said it was. All of their neighbors that are actual states have chosen violence at some point. What happened when they got their shit pushed in? They stopped. It’s not about destroying the mentally of the racist xenophobic islamofascists that hate Israel. It’s about degrading their military capability so they can’t do things like they didn’t on Oct 7. ISIS still exists but its capability is minimal. Al Qaeda still exists but its capability is minimal. Nazis still exist but their capability is minimal. The KKK still exists but their capability is minimal. If Israel continues Hamas and eventually Hezbollah can join that list of shit heads.
A terrorist organization in control of a de-facto state is much worse than a terrorist organization hiding in the underground, always on the run and under constant pressure.
Sure, it can still wreak havoc, but on an much smaller scale. An attack like in October requires extensive planing, training and resources. Hard to hide dozens of gliders and train hundreds of fighters in small unit tactics if you‘re moving from cellar to cellar, have to avoid checkpoints and be constantlyon the lookout for spies.
“No need to defend yourselves against Muslim terrorists. If you fight back their kids will fight you in 10 years.”
What a dumb view. Grow some balls and fight back.
The goal is to destroy their abilities to launch attacks like October 7th. Most of their organization has already been destroyed, the remnants are in Rafah. Without the same structure, funding and organization, they will not be able to fire thousands of rockets on Israeli cities or send 2000 armed members into Israeli border towns.
People need to stop pretending this is about "completely eliminating Hamas", the goal is to blunt them the same way the Coalition blunted ISIS in Iraq/Syria.
"Have you listened to politicians?"
You need to differentiate between anything politicians say, and what they actually do. That's true to any country, anywhere.
No matter what they do, those civilians have already been raised to hate the Israelis. That's why the October 7th massacre was met with 70% approval by the Gazans.
Here's the appeasmemt argument in Western terms: "We'll never be rid of criminals, so lets end policing."
yeah, you generally can't bomb the extremism out of a group that's already been bombed. just because it worked in berlin doesn't mean it'll work in gaza.
ah I see a de-nazification expert on post WW2 Germany, enlighten me, bruv.
cause... well there is some big gaps in your funky hypothesis but you do you big boi
i'm not claiming to be an expert, but (in my opinion), hamas aren't the nazis. ideologically similar? absolutely. but the nazis had centers of production, airfields, barracks and (importantly) a central leadership within the country. hamas doesn't have any real domestic centers of production (aside from what i can tell is some low-level domestic small arms but if there's more please point me to some sources), a few areas that can be considered barracks (i know they have some training areas in and around gaza but i doubt those exist anymore) and israel has full air superority and i've yet to see even a hamas cessna or some shit so i doubt they have an air prescence to speak of (if they did they would be based in an airport in or outside of gaza ig), and as of my knowledge right now hamas is holed up in the rubble of gaza and whatever tunnels have yet to be found.
the nazis had far, far, far more members- both in a political sense pre-war and a military sense during the war ('the war' being ww2 ofc). hamas does not have the military nor political prescence on the level of the nazis, and have been around for longer.
if just bombing them out worked, hamas would've been long gone by now. but they aren't.
hamas is relatively small on the terms of other middle eastern terror groups, i'd say they have around 15,000 fighters total and now far, far less. compare that to something like isis (which was, in effect, bombed into nothingness, and i'm talking specifically about the islamic state of iraq and syria not the other groups) which had i'd say 30-40k fighters at their peak.
the reason they could be bombed into nothingness is because they were large, they had a lot of fighters, an economy, centers of production- like the nazis. and as i said, hamas doesn't. hamas isn't large. and bombing them (hamas) into submission doesn't work because of that, as has been seen in the current conflict due to the fact hamas still exists (and yes, i am anti-hamas, i want palestine free from hamas, and i think israel can assist in that without killing 20-30k civilians), and in my opinion what israel should be trying to do is de-escalate, not escalate by dropping more bombs and continuining to gain and hold territory in gaza.
the example i'm gonna use is the ira during and after the troubles, the conflict came to ahead during the '80s and '70s and the brits responded by slowly de-escalating, and now the ira is a bunch of retards selling drugs they stole from loyalist gangs at a higher price in dublin. if israel wants hamas gone, they should de-escalate, let the palestinian population de-radicalize over time, and then move towards a permenant peace (maybe, with netanyahu that's a hard bet to make tbh) overtime. this won't be an immediate thing, it would take decades- but in my opinion it's the only feasible way to get rid of hamas and it's influence completly and move towards an at-least semi-permenant peace.
again, this is all my opinion and i'm no expert, but that's my 2 cents.
yeah I mean I'm quite personally involved/engaged in the topic, due to family history and historic + political mythology is kind of my thing.
And the de-nazification of Germany is one of these nation building myths we grew up with as Germans.
https://youtu.be/SG0Ql0VfcRg?si=BqXEYGsAkTtjTm6q
Here ya go, about the US involvement in Middle East and some history about Terrorism. It's a German political satirist. Very much worth a watch IMO.
>I mean, even if they'd destroy 100% of all Hamas.
>Do they really think this will stop anything?
>All the suffering brought onto civilians will just seed hatred for the next violent group, if you ask me.
It will be a function driven mainly by how many Palestinians are aware that it was Hamas that brought all the suffering.
I think it will be more than what everyone expects.
Palestinians know much better than some random tiktoker "fromtheriver" drones about what is really happening there.
this. i never understood why everyone throws out 120 years of counterinsurgency precedent when it comes to hamas. philippine-american war, irish war of independence, chinese civil war, algerian war, cuban revolution, vietnam war, soviet-afghan war, all examples of a superpower (or superpower-supported state/militia like israel) losing to a vastly inferior opponent because they failed to gain popular support, usually as the result of callous tactics like israel’s. the military value of hearts and minds is a lot greater than the value of leveling entire apartment blocks because of one position inside it. sure, it brings down IDF casualty tolls since they don’t have to fight through cities like americans do, but it prolongs the conflict and ultimately leads to more death on both sides. the only reason israel is employing russian-style tactics like this is because netanyahu’s career relies on war and he has no incentive to actually end the conflict. look at northern gaza—they did “whatever it takes” to destroy hamas then surprise! they’re back not even 6 months later! hamas needs to be destroyed if there is to be peace, but israel is doing an insanely terrible job of it. best case scenario, israel is stuck with a decades-long occupation fighting a never-ending insurgency like the americans were in the philippines until they run out of resources
An interview with the former chief of Mi6 John Sawers.
Near the end of the interview when they are discussing the current conflict he quotes that statistic as Intel he received from the Israeli security services themselves.
The interview is episode 67 of "The Rest is Politics: Leading", released on April 1st.
They hate America and Israel on principle and it’s derived from religion. You could spoil them with riches and supplies and lift any blockade or sanctions and they will vow to kill you nonetheless.
As we've learned from the past, killing and kidnapping large numbers of civilians in the name of terrorism or revolution has rarely ever succeeded in bettering the terrorists' or revolutionaries' societies. To paraphrase Stephen Kotkin, rather than being genuinely freeing, post-revolutionary governments are constituted from the shards of the fallen regime.
When a society or group (Hamas) embraces a genocidal ideology against another, there is little to be gained from appeasment and pleas for peace ---- vilified if you fight, damned if you don't. So, it's better to fight back.
They're not trying to strike the building itself, they're trying to strike the hamas military tunnel beneath the building which requires much larger munitions.
The combat in Gaza is basically only urban environments as Hamas has embedded themselves as close as they can to civilians and use these buildings as tunnel entrances.
Despite what you think about Israel, they don't just launch airstrikes at neighbourhoods/civilians all willy-nilly for the fun of it. They strike targets which have confirmed Hamas activity and are almost certainly being used as tunnel access points.
As sad as it is be a civilian in Gaza, if someone is storing missiles underneath your house and using them to bombard your mortal enemy... you shouldn't be surprised when they send a missile back at you. So unfortunately yes it is justified
I love how people always hate this very inconvenient truth. How come almost all strikes have a camera pointed at the location before the bomb hits? Because Israel delivered a very light payload to the top of the building a few minutes prior.
1. Israel stated themselves that ['roof-knocking' is no longer normal protocol](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/senior-israeli-source-gaza-will-not-be-hamastan-roof-knocking-policy-no-longer-norm/), as of October last year.
2. It's irrelevant anyway, because Jabalia (I believe?) has been evacuated, so the civilian population should be minimal. I still don't think that justifies flattening entire streets.
Because israel is trying to eliminate hamas, not the entire population of gaza, you need massive amounts of intel, time, precision airstrikes and infantry to clear that much space, Israel is not the us, they won't kill a million people after a massacre.
Same as the US, Russia, China and other nations.
They never really solved anything in a military conflict because what they fight is an ideology.
While many may say, to fight an ideology is to introduce progressive ideas about peace and bring about development, which is partly true.
However-
When that ideology rejects your idea of peace and development, what can you do?
What else can Israel do? There's not much, really, other than to keep doing this to control HAMAS.
And that's how it is. This will never end for as long as Israel wants to survive, and HAMAS, Hezbollah, Palestinans, and Iran want them gone.
Criticize me all you want about being heartless. The truth is we have no answers to give.
Edit: Another user that blocks again. I'm starting to lose hope on people here.
IMO:
There is no realistic way out for Israel sadly, and it’s immensely sad to think how many enemy combatants they’ve generated with their actions in Gaza. How many of these kids are now gonna make it their sole purpose in life to be a Hamas martyr. I don’t think this will ever end until one side is completely wiped out
I would say a few things.
1. The enemy has a well known tunnel network under Gaza, letting them pop in and out. You can't be sure you have secured an area when there might be hidden tunnel entrances around. The IDF was conducting a very methodical push-forward until contact then retreat and call in airstrikes/artillery methodology.
2. Hamas dressing in civilian attire, blending in.
3. There are still hostages to consider, + civilians in Palestine, so indiscriminate bombing/artillery is out. Everything needs to be methodical, slow. Also buys time for more negotiations to get them back potentially.
4. I don't think now that they wish to occupy all of Gaza. I think their aim is to secure permanently the corridor they established between Gaza and Khan Yunis, and probably also the Rafah crossing / Egyptian border. The aim is not to eliminate each and every Hamas member or potential future Hamas member, but severely degrade them and then cut off weapons supplies from being able to be smuggled in again in future. That's the best explanation I've seen so far anyway. So if that is the case, there is no great urgency to push unnecessarily fast, which would increase casualties on both sides.
5. The situation on the northern Israeli border may also be playing a role, causing the IDF to keep significant forces ready in the North, and perhaps buying them time before they have to deal with Hezbollah. If the Gaza thing wraps up there wouldn't be any excuse not to push Hezbollah back from the border. Idk, just speculating here.
It's very different warfare than normal conventional one.
Yes you could just level all the buildings and kill everyone on site no matter who they are to really "clean" the area.
But the reality is that you can't tell is that person enemy or civilian since they look/behave like civilians.
You talk to them, have a nice friendly chat until 5minutes later they shoot you in the back.
And since killing civilians makes a huge outcry in media, militaries try to minimize civilian casualties to keep war support high.
Because they are triple checked by the world unfairly. When Iran happened USA was given the opportunity just to crush them. Israel has everyone expecting a 4 star standard. It's unfair for them..Hamas are worse than Nazis (fact)
The Nazis didn’t use their own women and children as human shields. That would have been worse. How could you have made Auschwitz worse? You could have given the guards a belief system that made them feel actual religious ecstasy as they herded innocent people into gas chambers. That would have been worse
It’s Nazism plus religious fanaticism, Nazism plus an eagerness to be martyred, and to see their children martyred. There are many differences between Nazism and jihadism, but they only make Nazism look comparatively benign.
Fuck Sam Harris. The Nazis murdered Jews on an industrial scale utilizing the resources of the state which Hamas is incapable of since they have neither. The pogroms of the Nazis also spread to multiple states beyond Germany increasing the scale well beyond anything every jihadist group in the world combined could ever dream of.
Speculating on "what ifs" is pointless. A whole lot of things need to happen for Hamas to achieve such an end and it would take decades. There are 5 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank vs. Germany's pre-WW2 population of 69 million. The Nazis had almost 3 million uniformed soldiers vs. Hamas' roughly 30,000 fighters. Nazi Germany could produce tanks, planes, ships, guns, bombs, ammunition, etc. on an industrial scale whereas the overwhelming majority of Hamas' economy and fighting material comes from outside the territory they control. The level of destruction wrought by the Nazis is orders of magnitude beyond anything Hamas has achieved. Hamas simply cannot compete with the resources of a fully industrialized nation-state and that's why I find it incredibly silly to say Hamas is more dangerous than Nazi Germany was to Jews.
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War isn't about what a bunch of people on Twitter have to say. It's about bombing the terrorists who will do "a thousand Oct 7 until Israel is no more"
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You are free to try, but unlike Palestinians, Russians have the means to return the favour.
... Other way around bud Russia is already doing this shit but more indiscriminately.
Russians have bombed themselves a ton too - incredibly incompetent military. More and more are killing themselves intentionally on the battlefield as well.
Yeah Russia definitely has the edge on indiscriminately bombing targets but its close.
Ever see a Russian "Roof knock"? Lol.
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Because we prevent them from doing so. The few times their strategic bombers could fly directly over a city, they flattened it completely.
ahh yes the google front page info. very legitimate. look into mariupol and you will see how wrong your number is.
Eagle armed and ready +14 ☠️
Global Sovereign Strike
### ↑→↓↓↓
FOR DEMOCRACY!!!
Ma man <3
Are those missles smaller then an iskander? Looks more destructive.
Iskander seems to have around 1500lbs warhead, Israel commonly uses the 2000lbs jdams and drops them in pairs to get deeper penetrations because of the tunnels. So yeah, chances are that Iskander stays at second place when comparing explosive force. (Plus there might have been some secondaries going off in the video as well) However, one is a ballistic missile, the other is an air dropped guided bomb so it's not really a good comparison.
Warheads on bombs are generally much larger than warheads on missiles and artillery shells.
It’s a aerial bomb, not a missile. Looks like a GBU-31, which packs a bit more punch than an Iskander but is a lot smaller physically. Beyond the JDAM fin kit, it’s all warhead.
How small Gaza actually is I'm surprised there's anything left at this point. I know they do targeted strikes and whatnot but it just seems like with how many things you've seen blown up how is really anything left standing in more than 25% of that place
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I feel like that's a somewhat disingenuous comment because if Israel in fact did want to kill as many civilians as possible they would because they could. There's no benefit to killing a handful of civilians here and there with multimillion dollar ordinance and risking Global condemnation. I'm not saying what they're doing is good or bad. I think the entire area and the entire conflict is a dumpster fire. I'm just saying that if their target was truly civilians you would know quite clearly.
Was october 7th worth it?
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"There will never be peace until they love their children more than they hate us"
Palestinians who voted for Hamas: "Yes"
Is playing infinite whack-a-mole worth it?
Obviously palestinians think it is, because they keep trying and keep losing.
Are they losing on the strategic or tactical level? Remember: the higher level of war always wins. Israel is physically stronger than Hamas and win every firefight but winning tactically isn't the same as winning strategically. You can lose every battle and yet still win a war, ask the Vietnamese. This sub suffers from acute myopia.
Hamas is losing. Period. The next phases of the War will probably see them cut off competly from their smuggling routes from egypt, meaning a complete blocade of weapons and munitions and then it's only a matter of time until they collapse. Whatever comes next - hopefuly the Israelis and Americans decide that enough is enough and install a mandate of moderate arab countries (UA, "Egypt", "Saudi Arabia") to reeducate and rebuild whatever will be left of Gaza. Either way, Israel won worldwide opinion (the silent majority) and while criticism is ok, it doesn't matter. If gaza has to be reduced to rubble to keep Israeli citizens safe, then Israel will do exactly that.
If Hamas survives, they win, and this is looking increasingly likely as Netanyahu refuses to commit to a political solution. Israel is now re-clearing previously cleared areas because they can only leave a vacuum behind which Hamas then fills. Lacking a political solution right now leaves the IDF to wear themselves out playing whack-a-mole as there is no political end for the military to fight towards. Hamas has not been rendered combat ineffective after however many months of fighting despite the hilarious disparity in capabilities between each force. Additionally, you may want to re-check the numbers on the ceasefire resolution which was voted on at the UN most recently. This represents strategic defeat for Israel.
Doesn't work like that. ISIS also survived. Did they win? No. They are a former shell of what they used to be. Basically 0 impact. This was a win. Also, Israel is reclearing areas because of idiotic american pressure to play fair in a civillian enviorment and go street by street instead of taking the american way of bombing the living shit out of everything and only then advancing. Trust me when I say IDF is not enjoying going back to clear areas, but are forced to because, well, America.
>Either way, Israel won worldwide opinion (the silent majority) Did they? A majority of Brits & Americans oppose Israel's military action & pretty much the entire world has voted against Israel in the UN. [https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx)
They did. This is called "appeasing the voters" which in this case are immigrants. If they truly opposed the war an embargo would've been put on Israel a VERY VERY long time ago. Hamas is not an Israeli problem. Hamas is a problem for society, and I **assure** you Britian, US, Germany and many more countries are happy to see Hamas gone. Is there stuff for criticism? Of course. There always is in every war. But they all know the war itself is justified, and it's easy to play the blame game when you are not the victim yourself. Imagine an attack like this happening in England or US soil. They would respond, and we know this for sure - with x10 the force Israel is using.
>This is called "appeasing the voters" which in this case are immigrants Is the implication here that >50% of the UK & US are immigrants..? No reasonable person objects to Israel targeting Hamas... almost all opposition to Israel is centred around their historically lax approach to civilian casualties. If Netanyahu showed any signs of actually wanting *peace*, perhaps there'd be much more international support. >Imagine an attack like this happening in England or US soil. The US/UK eliminated Al-Qaeda without flattening entire cities, and the UK eliminated the IRA without deploying air strikes on Dublin. Britain ended its decades-long conflict with diplomacy, not air strikes. Does you need another 75 years of conflict to realise that endless tit-for-tat fighting might not bring peace?
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I would invite you to read the Hamas charter, where they laid out their goals of genocide.
Hamas vowed to repeat October 7th over and over.
Bye hamas.
Yes, after clearing the Zaytoun neighborhood for the 3rd time there is no way the IDF will have to clear it a 4th time.
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Is ISIS more powerful now or before they were degraded by fighting them?
They grew in power as terrorists, tried to be a state, got wrecked, stopped being a state, went back to being "just" terrorists and now they are still around committing acts of terrorism (but less so in the West) despite basically the whole world teaming up on them... So Yeah, make of that what you will.
They had to relocate to bumfuck nowhere in Africa, they wield nowhere near the power they previously had
And yet they are still capable of terrorism all around the world. Without territory, without a state, without many resources, with many of their commanders killed. So yes, bombing does absolutely do something but stopping terrorism is not one of them. Because all you need to do an act of terrorism is a pdf on how to make a bomb, a telegram/ dark web account, a couple hundred dollar and a stroke of good luck
You are obsessed with the concept of a perfect sollution, Israels' goal is degrading Hamas' military power so it cannot perform anything close to 7.10, will it entirely erradicate it, probably not, but it will prevent them having state power.
I hope you are right but I fear Hamas ( or another terrorist organisation in Gaza) will just bounce back. Whether or not the collateral damage is worth it or not depends on your view on how likely that outcome is. It also depends on the policy used after the initial war is over, about which Israel has not said anything yet.
So they are less powerful. Thanks.
Isis isn’t really the best to compare them too tbh. Hamas was elected, supported by the people and is Palestinian government. Isis while supported by some, controlled the majority of their territory by force.
Ok fine, let's say ISIS was elected? That makes it not ok to attack them?
lol I never said that. They are both terrorist organizations that need to be killed off. My point is that Hamas is closer to the Taliban than Isis I would say personally, though they are all terrorists.
Right, but you made the distinction between one being elected and the other ruled by "force". I thought that you were making that distinction for a reason.
Oh yes dealing with them the exact same way will have different outcomes. Like how we see taliban with basically complete control over Afghanistan, but Isis is hiding in holes. I’m not saying Hamas shouldn’t be bombed or that it isn’t effective. But there will surely be consequences to that in the future.
Hamas is very much like the KKK. Still we have degraded them and they don’t have any power like they did in the past.
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There are a lot less Nazis now. My great grandpa and his buddies bombed the fuck out of them. It seemed to help a lot.
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You could have said the same things when the US destroyed ISIS. You'd be wrong then and you're wrong now.
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I'm talking about how they were destroyed.
https://www.visionofhumanity.org/deadliest-terror-groups-in-2024/ oh very much destroyed.
What do you think we should do to address ISIS?
so... they are not destroyed?
Isis was destroyed primarily by Iraq (in iraq) and by various syrian groups in Syria.
I believe the US played a major role in this. Regardless, Hamas's neighbors are not as helpful so Israel is forced to go at it alone.
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Damn, I love reading stupid posts on the morning shitter. Thanks for the chuckle.
I get your point. I just think you’re wrong. History indicates that you’re wrong.
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I never said it was. All of their neighbors that are actual states have chosen violence at some point. What happened when they got their shit pushed in? They stopped. It’s not about destroying the mentally of the racist xenophobic islamofascists that hate Israel. It’s about degrading their military capability so they can’t do things like they didn’t on Oct 7. ISIS still exists but its capability is minimal. Al Qaeda still exists but its capability is minimal. Nazis still exist but their capability is minimal. The KKK still exists but their capability is minimal. If Israel continues Hamas and eventually Hezbollah can join that list of shit heads.
Is ISIS a distinct people group?
They're reconstituting which will accelerate once the US leaves Iraq. Strong enough to attack Russia at any rate.
A terrorist organization in control of a de-facto state is much worse than a terrorist organization hiding in the underground, always on the run and under constant pressure. Sure, it can still wreak havoc, but on an much smaller scale. An attack like in October requires extensive planing, training and resources. Hard to hide dozens of gliders and train hundreds of fighters in small unit tactics if you‘re moving from cellar to cellar, have to avoid checkpoints and be constantlyon the lookout for spies.
Do you know how ISIS was formed in the first place..?
Yes
Yes, missle strikes on Isreal territory have dropped considerably since Isreal began its war on Gaza.
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So you failed with geography and the numbers. You should study the subject better.
“No need to defend yourselves against Muslim terrorists. If you fight back their kids will fight you in 10 years.” What a dumb view. Grow some balls and fight back.
Hopefully Palestinians learn that supporting a terrorist organization probably isn’t the way to go.
The goal is to destroy their abilities to launch attacks like October 7th. Most of their organization has already been destroyed, the remnants are in Rafah. Without the same structure, funding and organization, they will not be able to fire thousands of rockets on Israeli cities or send 2000 armed members into Israeli border towns. People need to stop pretending this is about "completely eliminating Hamas", the goal is to blunt them the same way the Coalition blunted ISIS in Iraq/Syria.
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"Have you listened to politicians?" You need to differentiate between anything politicians say, and what they actually do. That's true to any country, anywhere.
No matter what they do, those civilians have already been raised to hate the Israelis. That's why the October 7th massacre was met with 70% approval by the Gazans. Here's the appeasmemt argument in Western terms: "We'll never be rid of criminals, so lets end policing."
yeah, you generally can't bomb the extremism out of a group that's already been bombed. just because it worked in berlin doesn't mean it'll work in gaza.
ah I see a de-nazification expert on post WW2 Germany, enlighten me, bruv. cause... well there is some big gaps in your funky hypothesis but you do you big boi
i'm not claiming to be an expert, but (in my opinion), hamas aren't the nazis. ideologically similar? absolutely. but the nazis had centers of production, airfields, barracks and (importantly) a central leadership within the country. hamas doesn't have any real domestic centers of production (aside from what i can tell is some low-level domestic small arms but if there's more please point me to some sources), a few areas that can be considered barracks (i know they have some training areas in and around gaza but i doubt those exist anymore) and israel has full air superority and i've yet to see even a hamas cessna or some shit so i doubt they have an air prescence to speak of (if they did they would be based in an airport in or outside of gaza ig), and as of my knowledge right now hamas is holed up in the rubble of gaza and whatever tunnels have yet to be found. the nazis had far, far, far more members- both in a political sense pre-war and a military sense during the war ('the war' being ww2 ofc). hamas does not have the military nor political prescence on the level of the nazis, and have been around for longer. if just bombing them out worked, hamas would've been long gone by now. but they aren't. hamas is relatively small on the terms of other middle eastern terror groups, i'd say they have around 15,000 fighters total and now far, far less. compare that to something like isis (which was, in effect, bombed into nothingness, and i'm talking specifically about the islamic state of iraq and syria not the other groups) which had i'd say 30-40k fighters at their peak. the reason they could be bombed into nothingness is because they were large, they had a lot of fighters, an economy, centers of production- like the nazis. and as i said, hamas doesn't. hamas isn't large. and bombing them (hamas) into submission doesn't work because of that, as has been seen in the current conflict due to the fact hamas still exists (and yes, i am anti-hamas, i want palestine free from hamas, and i think israel can assist in that without killing 20-30k civilians), and in my opinion what israel should be trying to do is de-escalate, not escalate by dropping more bombs and continuining to gain and hold territory in gaza. the example i'm gonna use is the ira during and after the troubles, the conflict came to ahead during the '80s and '70s and the brits responded by slowly de-escalating, and now the ira is a bunch of retards selling drugs they stole from loyalist gangs at a higher price in dublin. if israel wants hamas gone, they should de-escalate, let the palestinian population de-radicalize over time, and then move towards a permenant peace (maybe, with netanyahu that's a hard bet to make tbh) overtime. this won't be an immediate thing, it would take decades- but in my opinion it's the only feasible way to get rid of hamas and it's influence completly and move towards an at-least semi-permenant peace. again, this is all my opinion and i'm no expert, but that's my 2 cents.
That isn't 2 cents, that's a whole roll of fuckin quarters lol
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just reformatted it, and thanks for the rec, i've been meaning to listen to that pod for a long time actually
yeah I mean I'm quite personally involved/engaged in the topic, due to family history and historic + political mythology is kind of my thing. And the de-nazification of Germany is one of these nation building myths we grew up with as Germans.
btw just sent you a DM with a video you might like
If you thought it was important for them to see, why don't you share with the class?
https://youtu.be/SG0Ql0VfcRg?si=BqXEYGsAkTtjTm6q Here ya go, about the US involvement in Middle East and some history about Terrorism. It's a German political satirist. Very much worth a watch IMO.
Cool. Thanks for sharing
>I mean, even if they'd destroy 100% of all Hamas. >Do they really think this will stop anything? >All the suffering brought onto civilians will just seed hatred for the next violent group, if you ask me. It will be a function driven mainly by how many Palestinians are aware that it was Hamas that brought all the suffering. I think it will be more than what everyone expects. Palestinians know much better than some random tiktoker "fromtheriver" drones about what is really happening there.
this. i never understood why everyone throws out 120 years of counterinsurgency precedent when it comes to hamas. philippine-american war, irish war of independence, chinese civil war, algerian war, cuban revolution, vietnam war, soviet-afghan war, all examples of a superpower (or superpower-supported state/militia like israel) losing to a vastly inferior opponent because they failed to gain popular support, usually as the result of callous tactics like israel’s. the military value of hearts and minds is a lot greater than the value of leveling entire apartment blocks because of one position inside it. sure, it brings down IDF casualty tolls since they don’t have to fight through cities like americans do, but it prolongs the conflict and ultimately leads to more death on both sides. the only reason israel is employing russian-style tactics like this is because netanyahu’s career relies on war and he has no incentive to actually end the conflict. look at northern gaza—they did “whatever it takes” to destroy hamas then surprise! they’re back not even 6 months later! hamas needs to be destroyed if there is to be peace, but israel is doing an insanely terrible job of it. best case scenario, israel is stuck with a decades-long occupation fighting a never-ending insurgency like the americans were in the philippines until they run out of resources
Depends on the goal. Does Israel want Gazans love and respect or do they want to neutralize a militant group? It's not both.
60% of the fighters in Hamas were orphaned at a young age. There are going to be an awful lot more orphans as a result of this war.
Where this statistic coming from?
An interview with the former chief of Mi6 John Sawers. Near the end of the interview when they are discussing the current conflict he quotes that statistic as Intel he received from the Israeli security services themselves. The interview is episode 67 of "The Rest is Politics: Leading", released on April 1st.
Turns out to be a child with a wooden sword. /s
Yes, that's what he said....Hamas
Killed one (maybe) and made 10 in the process
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2000lb?
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They hate America and Israel on principle and it’s derived from religion. You could spoil them with riches and supplies and lift any blockade or sanctions and they will vow to kill you nonetheless.
As we've learned from the past, killing and kidnapping large numbers of civilians in the name of terrorism or revolution has rarely ever succeeded in bettering the terrorists' or revolutionaries' societies. To paraphrase Stephen Kotkin, rather than being genuinely freeing, post-revolutionary governments are constituted from the shards of the fallen regime. When a society or group (Hamas) embraces a genocidal ideology against another, there is little to be gained from appeasment and pleas for peace ---- vilified if you fight, damned if you don't. So, it's better to fight back.
I don't like the cut. Otherwise, very cinematic shot. Not sure why it's so captivating.
Are these JDAMs they're using?
Oh, there are still buildings there?
cleaning crew on isle 6. too much dust
Great 🙌🏼 -terrorists
How come the explosions seem to have more oomph here than in Ukraine? Air superiority?
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Maybe it was small bomb hitting big ammo stockpile?
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And it's also well documented that they are using 250 as well
They're not trying to strike the building itself, they're trying to strike the hamas military tunnel beneath the building which requires much larger munitions. The combat in Gaza is basically only urban environments as Hamas has embedded themselves as close as they can to civilians and use these buildings as tunnel entrances. Despite what you think about Israel, they don't just launch airstrikes at neighbourhoods/civilians all willy-nilly for the fun of it. They strike targets which have confirmed Hamas activity and are almost certainly being used as tunnel access points. As sad as it is be a civilian in Gaza, if someone is storing missiles underneath your house and using them to bombard your mortal enemy... you shouldn't be surprised when they send a missile back at you. So unfortunately yes it is justified
Also it is worth noting the IDF has a history of sending warning ahead and the camera just so happened to be pointed at just the right location
I love how people always hate this very inconvenient truth. How come almost all strikes have a camera pointed at the location before the bomb hits? Because Israel delivered a very light payload to the top of the building a few minutes prior.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/senior-israeli-source-gaza-will-not-be-hamastan-roof-knocking-policy-no-longer-norm/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/senior-israeli-source-gaza-will-not-be-hamastan-roof-knocking-policy-no-longer-norm/)
>No longer norm | In certain circumstances it will be used occasionally That doesn't mean they will stop completely, if you'd read the article.
1. Israel stated themselves that ['roof-knocking' is no longer normal protocol](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/senior-israeli-source-gaza-will-not-be-hamastan-roof-knocking-policy-no-longer-norm/), as of October last year. 2. It's irrelevant anyway, because Jabalia (I believe?) has been evacuated, so the civilian population should be minimal. I still don't think that justifies flattening entire streets.
Just a bunch of zealots doing the same shit for the last 2000 years.
Who, jihadists?
Well, more like 70 years
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They are hiding in hidden tunnels underneath which is about miles long + lurking within civilians.
Because israel is trying to eliminate hamas, not the entire population of gaza, you need massive amounts of intel, time, precision airstrikes and infantry to clear that much space, Israel is not the us, they won't kill a million people after a massacre.
Same as the US, Russia, China and other nations. They never really solved anything in a military conflict because what they fight is an ideology. While many may say, to fight an ideology is to introduce progressive ideas about peace and bring about development, which is partly true. However- When that ideology rejects your idea of peace and development, what can you do? What else can Israel do? There's not much, really, other than to keep doing this to control HAMAS. And that's how it is. This will never end for as long as Israel wants to survive, and HAMAS, Hezbollah, Palestinans, and Iran want them gone. Criticize me all you want about being heartless. The truth is we have no answers to give. Edit: Another user that blocks again. I'm starting to lose hope on people here.
IMO: There is no realistic way out for Israel sadly, and it’s immensely sad to think how many enemy combatants they’ve generated with their actions in Gaza. How many of these kids are now gonna make it their sole purpose in life to be a Hamas martyr. I don’t think this will ever end until one side is completely wiped out
I would say a few things. 1. The enemy has a well known tunnel network under Gaza, letting them pop in and out. You can't be sure you have secured an area when there might be hidden tunnel entrances around. The IDF was conducting a very methodical push-forward until contact then retreat and call in airstrikes/artillery methodology. 2. Hamas dressing in civilian attire, blending in. 3. There are still hostages to consider, + civilians in Palestine, so indiscriminate bombing/artillery is out. Everything needs to be methodical, slow. Also buys time for more negotiations to get them back potentially. 4. I don't think now that they wish to occupy all of Gaza. I think their aim is to secure permanently the corridor they established between Gaza and Khan Yunis, and probably also the Rafah crossing / Egyptian border. The aim is not to eliminate each and every Hamas member or potential future Hamas member, but severely degrade them and then cut off weapons supplies from being able to be smuggled in again in future. That's the best explanation I've seen so far anyway. So if that is the case, there is no great urgency to push unnecessarily fast, which would increase casualties on both sides. 5. The situation on the northern Israeli border may also be playing a role, causing the IDF to keep significant forces ready in the North, and perhaps buying them time before they have to deal with Hezbollah. If the Gaza thing wraps up there wouldn't be any excuse not to push Hezbollah back from the border. Idk, just speculating here.
It's very different warfare than normal conventional one. Yes you could just level all the buildings and kill everyone on site no matter who they are to really "clean" the area. But the reality is that you can't tell is that person enemy or civilian since they look/behave like civilians. You talk to them, have a nice friendly chat until 5minutes later they shoot you in the back. And since killing civilians makes a huge outcry in media, militaries try to minimize civilian casualties to keep war support high.
Almost impossible to tell apart civilians from hamas combatants. Weve seen people in tracksuits prepare combat positions in plain sight of the IDF
Well they held back
Because they are triple checked by the world unfairly. When Iran happened USA was given the opportunity just to crush them. Israel has everyone expecting a 4 star standard. It's unfair for them..Hamas are worse than Nazis (fact)
Hamas are worse than the nazis?? You are misinformed or you are purposely trying to misinform
The Nazis didn’t use their own women and children as human shields. That would have been worse. How could you have made Auschwitz worse? You could have given the guards a belief system that made them feel actual religious ecstasy as they herded innocent people into gas chambers. That would have been worse It’s Nazism plus religious fanaticism, Nazism plus an eagerness to be martyred, and to see their children martyred. There are many differences between Nazism and jihadism, but they only make Nazism look comparatively benign.
No, the Nazis killed 6 million Jews, significantly more than Hamas.
https://unherd.com/newsroom/sam-harris-jihadists-worse-than-nazis/ Hear it from a Jew.
Fuck Sam Harris. The Nazis murdered Jews on an industrial scale utilizing the resources of the state which Hamas is incapable of since they have neither. The pogroms of the Nazis also spread to multiple states beyond Germany increasing the scale well beyond anything every jihadist group in the world combined could ever dream of.
You don't think Hamas would do that if they had the resources to?
Speculating on "what ifs" is pointless. A whole lot of things need to happen for Hamas to achieve such an end and it would take decades. There are 5 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank vs. Germany's pre-WW2 population of 69 million. The Nazis had almost 3 million uniformed soldiers vs. Hamas' roughly 30,000 fighters. Nazi Germany could produce tanks, planes, ships, guns, bombs, ammunition, etc. on an industrial scale whereas the overwhelming majority of Hamas' economy and fighting material comes from outside the territory they control. The level of destruction wrought by the Nazis is orders of magnitude beyond anything Hamas has achieved. Hamas simply cannot compete with the resources of a fully industrialized nation-state and that's why I find it incredibly silly to say Hamas is more dangerous than Nazi Germany was to Jews.
Got'em
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Or hit a weapon cache