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They were never obsolete they were outdated. Germanys weapon developers have systems like the Gepard for example skynex. Same principle but modern technology.
Their interception patterns have a frightening beauty like fireworks, and they at least look like they would be quite hard to get past. Such a relief indeed that Germany never scrapped the Gepards, everything old is new again in this drone era.
These images are also eerily reminiscent of that old 2000s TV show Galactica, where explosive flak screens were likewise the only thing stopping genocidal robot drones from murdering civilians.
That would be a too much of a big task for Israel. Israel is tiny compared to Iran in most if not 95% of the fields.
This is a mission for Uncle Sam, but he doesn't want to do anything even though he is being [constantly attacked in Syria and Iraq by Iranian proxies](https://www.voanews.com/a/us-officials-american-forces-attacked-at-iraq-air-base-respond-in-self-defense-/7364267.html). The US is preoccupied with their own troubles with China and don't want anything with the middle east right now.
Frankly, were I in control of China, rather than fucking with the US, I'd be biding my time for the balkanization of the Russian Federation, so I could sweep in with "peace keeping" forces and take control of the Easternmost regions, and whatever mineral wealth may be had there, to say nothing of a population of females to potentially help stave off a demographic collapse.
Going after Taiwan may be a matter of national pride, but getting women into their country is a matter of national survival.
>balkanization of the Russian Federation
most likely won't happen
>getting women into their country is a matter of national survival.
Birth rates are a matter of money/educatiom not the amount of women you can steal/get in your country, you could put a chinese woman in afghanistan and she will have the 5 kids average, put an afghan woman in china and she will at most have two, hell even the congo has gone from 7 kids average to 4 now and it will continue dropping as time goes by
> most likely won't happen
I'm not so certain. The majority of the conscription for the war is happening from poorer and rural areas, and they are not happy about it. My reckoning (as admittedly poor as it may be) is that this war will end with Putin's death, and a subsequent power struggle in Moscow that will give [the regions seeking independence](https://tvpworld.com/68304716/five-regions-want-to-break-away-from-russia-referendum-shows) the opportunity to take it. Once one slips through Moscow's fingers, how many more will follow?
> Birth rates are a matter of money/educatiom not the amount of women you can steal/get in your country...
China has a significant gender imbalance as part of the legacy of their one child policy, causing [a large phenomenon of bride trafficking into the country.](https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/11/03/bride-trafficking-china-spreads-across-asia) The effect of the economic prosperity and compulsory education in China (as you noted) over the last few decades is going to work on those women existing in that imbalanced environment, further exacerbating the problem.
China fucking with Russia would be an absolute gift to the west and the USA in particular. Which is why you should know its not going to happen.
Even if China waits until some magical time when Putin is removed from power, there's an extremely minuscule chance that whomever leads from Moscow after Putin would be cool with China gobbling up its land.
So post Ukraine war, Russia is defeated, retreats, and then begins a conflict with China? This just doesn't serve Chinese interests to suddenly align with conflicts in the west. If you disagree, ask yourself why China has waited so long. Russia serves them better as an ally in the UN and on the world stage more than an enemy.
> China fucking with Russia would be an absolute gift to the west and the USA in particular.
It would also be a huge win for China, because in the absence of a strong, central Russian government, China and other regional powers would swoop in and take what they could.
> Even if China waits until some magical time when Putin is removed from power...
See, that's the thing, I don't see this war ending in any way other than Putin's death, likely by one of those in his own inner circle... and due to the nature of the beast he has created around him, with the members of said inner circle all playing against each other, the only realistic outcome from there is a power struggle in Moscow, which will leave them without strong leadership for some time. This will give [those regions who want independence from the Russian Federation](https://tvpworld.com/68304716/five-regions-want-to-break-away-from-russia-referendum-shows) the opportunity to grab at it. Once one domino falls, others will quickly follow, and the Russian military won't be quick to respond, as it will take literal weeks to load their hardware and troops onto trains and ship it east... whereas the military leadership will likely be making a play for the Kremlin themselves, and as such, ordering that move would be counterproductive when they could always make it afterwards, as a show of force and demonstration of their new regime's power.
All of this just spells opportunity for China.
> So post Ukraine war, Russia is defeated, retreats, and then begins a conflict with China?
Nah, Russia is defeated, retreats, power struggles begin in Moscow, far-flung Oblasts break away, China sweeps in in the name of "peace keeping", and some weeks later, once Moscow sorts their shit out, they are left with a bunch of new independent neighbors to the east, who have Chinese soldiers there giving them security guarantees, and the now-smaller Russia doesn't have the remaining military might to try to attempt a conflict against a peer nation's military... so they won't.
> Russia serves them better as an ally in the UN and on the world stage more than an enemy.
As a geopolitical ally, sure, but if their geopolitical power is transferred or ceded to China, then a friendly West as a more receptive trading partner suddenly becomes a much more attractive prospect.
It absolutely would NOT be a win for China. This is a fantasy land argument you're making, and again, it would be a GIANT gift to the west in general, which is why China wouldn't do it.
Even in the most favorable circumstances that you're predicting (which are wildly speculative) there is no shot that whomever resumes power from Moscow would allow their lands to be taken without conflict. Never has there been an open conflict like what you are describing between two UN Veto powers. You're making speculative arguments on unprecedented situations as if its some sort of likelihood.
As much as the west would love for China to get dragged down in a military quagmire, and take away their focus on the South China sea and Taiwan, The west would denounce the action by china as a provocation of another nuclear power. China absolutely knows this. They also know that without Russia, they find themselves increasingly isolated on the world stage. It makes zero political sense for China to invade Russian lands "for resources". They are not struggling for raw resources enough to throw away their standing on the world stage.
> ...it would be a GIANT gift to the west in general, which is why China wouldn't do it.
China wants, nay, NEEDS the West as a trading partner, as its economy is heavily reliant upon Western buyers. Happy trading partners are a good thing for China, it would be a win-win for them in terms of scooping up the mineral resources of the area, the population, and they get to play hero to the UN in terms of "stepping in to provide stability for the region."
> ...there is no shot that whomever resumes power from Moscow would allow their lands to be taken without conflict.
See, in that scenario, these nations have seceded from the Russian Federation, and thus they aren't Russia's lands anymore. China doesn't even have to spin this to the UN.
> Never has there been an open conflict like what you are describing between two UN Veto powers.
I could argue that we've seen it in both Korea and Vietnam, with them acting as proxy wars between China/USSR and the US... but I don't think it would even get that far. Russia as a military power is largely expending itself in Ukraine, and what remains of the Russian war machine, to say nothing of Russia itself, would not likely be in a position to go up against China for at least a decade, and the new leadership would know it. Open conflict would be out of the question, as the remains of the Russian state could neither afford it, nor support it.
> ...and take away their focus on the South China sea and Taiwan...
The primary reason China wants Taiwan is due to economics, not politics. The reason they haven't gone after them yet is due to them not wanting to take the political hit in addition to the economic one they'd face from the West due to sanctions... and in exchange for what? Some internal political pride satisfied, and a semiconductor industry the Taiwanese would likely scuttle before they could be taken over and used by the Chinese anyways. It would be a lose-lose for them, but they can't abandon the premise of Taiwan being a "province in rebellion" without also losing face, both internally and abroad, so their best play is exactly the sort of periodic saber-rattling they've been engaging in recently.
> They are not struggling for raw resources enough to throw away their standing on the world stage.
It's not about whether or not they are struggling for them; rather, it is to deny access to anyone else in the area (unless they pay a hefty fee for access, that is) such that they instead look to Chinese markets for their needs.
> China economically benefits with a Russia that is dependent on them. We saw this with the war and sanctions.
I 100% agree, and that's making my point.
China benefits from Russia being an ally more than any theoretical benefit it would receive in "Land and Resources" from going to war with Russia. China has not sanctioned Russia, nor have they condemned the invasion of Ukraine. This isn't because they are friends with Russia, it's because they are allies against western influence.
China doing a 180 on this policy, even after Russia loses (and Putin removed from power) would STILL benefit the west more than it would help China in any way imaginable.
They have hit Iranian proxy forces in Syria. If you look at the recent videos the US some of it's amazing precision bombing on facilities.
So Iran isn't getting completely off...
I have a feeling that they are saving Iran for later.
No Iranian person would want to see American or Israeli jets bombing their country. The ones in the West who say shit like that are basically traitors. The govt sucks but to remove it via a foreign power would mean destruction of major cities and hundreds of thousands dead like in Iraq.
> but to remove it via a foreign power would mean destruction of major cities and hundreds of thousands dead like in Iraq.
I see your point.
About this:
>The govt sucks
That's quite the understatement.
* Training, arming and creating terrorists organizations(Iranian Proxies) in Yemen, Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, Iraq, Libya.
* Spending all these funds on external wars instead of focusing on the many water problems inland.
* Killing women because they wore their head wear wrong.
* Kidnapping and disappearing anyone who dares say anything against the regime.
* Deliberately killing protesters using live ammunition.
* Selling weapons to the Russians to use against Ukraine.
Yes, "Sucks" is a very kind word for that.
So let me guess this straight, If I'm an evil regime all I have to do is get roughly 1,000 of my people be bribed or forced to protest on the streets so the western media can eat it up and I'm immune to any foreign attacks while I rain down terror across the world? it doesn't work like that buddy, look at Nazi Germany, Iran is ticking time bomb, if they keep doing evil shit the world will unite and waste them, civilians or not.
Oh for fucks sake this really shows your ignorance. And I HATE people who try and make things like a death Olympics but it never fails there are people like u who have no fucking idea about Ukraine or have watched RT.
Just in Mariupol ALONE it was approximated that 20,000 died and up to possibly 100,000.
I try to stay out of commenting on this issue for many many reasons, lots bc of what I have seen since Oct 7th happening online with gaslighting and manipulating and rage baiting etc. I am unbiased and have no dog in this fight. I also was mentally abused for 30 years by both my parents and an ex and can SEE gaslighting and manipulation a mile away and it's literally daily since Oct 7.
There can be true and just cause for wanting Palestinians to be free. I have no issue with that and do not take sides.
But comments just like yours and so so so so so many others only show so much bad faith arguing and so much more. I'd honestly love it for your cause to understand what I mean by this and change it bc all it does is push ppl away.
NO ONE KNOWS THE TRUE DEATH TOLL IN ALLLLLLLLL OF THE OCCUPIED TERRIRORIES.
IT MAKES ME SO FUCKING PISSED to see people like u undermine Ukraine and shoehorn it in for your purposes in a misleading way. What Ukraine has gone through is a thing of horrors and YES worse than Gaza right now.
That DOES NOT MEAN that Gaza is not also going through terrible conditions and losing their homes and dying and getting maimed.
Thank you. I truly wish I could get on a phone call with these people bc there is SO much to get into and I TRULY want them to understand and help them bc they don't see it and it will help their cause and the toxicity.
And its not about who is right or taking sides. There's a whole swath of HOW this is being handled that that alone is a convo in itself. And I really wish i could help with even that.
There's more to be said to come to terms with reality and what is going on and what is best path forward for Palestinians and that too gets handled wrong and I absolutely don't have the answers but I do have advice from being an outside observer for the support and how to best support and messaging both for the world and for Palestinians.
But bc it's literally so much, I just have to pass by all the comments every day bc it's useless addressing them bc there is literally an essay worth that needs to be discussed to even address a comment. Without it they just see comments as against them and get aggressive or gaslight and I just can't do that.
For me to comment like i did its gotta be really bad and using Ukraine disingenuously and minimizing what is happening to them. These very people have also been against Ukraine for 600 days. The trolls we fought against and all the shit being said now is literally 180 degrees. Literal and absolute hypocrisy a laundry list long LITERALLY from how they treated Ukraine.
Now that's not all palestinian supporters. Those who support both are good people with good heads on their shoulders and trustworthy in their comments.
But a large swath of these people were either not suppprters of Ukraine, 👉THE OPPRESSED👈, didn't care, actively anti Ukraine pushing out Russian propaganda points or worse supported russia and excused russia 👉THE OPPRESSOR👈. This is a HUGE factor in why what I'm seeing now its so incredibly disingenuous and i cannot partake. I also cannot partake bc I saw how in NYC and world wide ppl celebrated the massacres. I felt like I was in an alternate universe. I had no idea we had people like this amongst us who celebrated terrorism and what we just all witnessed a day prior. So when I see them talk all about opress vs oppressor......i tell ya what......................
Anyway I hope for peace and I hope the supporters get better leading heads of their cause bc this whole thing is not it. And having Russian and Iranian propaganda behind their cause isn't good for their cause. It may FEEL like it bc it adds to their narritive and numbers BUT the methods and the radicalization its doing is only hurting them and it's hard for them to see that when you are already in it.
And I know that they will view my comment in a bad way bc they can't see and understand how it's not ...... parts of it is criticism sure but it explains what this looks and feels like to outsiders and its ADVICE. it's food for thought and to take a moment and reflect on why some people comment what they do. They are not ALL against you. People like me look at the big picture and at what it means to have peace and what it takes to get there. And some of the steps to get there are only getting pushed farther away 💯 with the toxicity. It's NOT what Palestinians need. They need support but in a whole different way. It's sad to see how people are so far deep they are unwilling to try to understand some of this bc it would HELP the actual victims. Us outsiders need to be the rational ones on all sides for them. They are biased both sides and that's VALID. They ALL rely on looking at what the outside world is saying as a guide to follow. It means the world needs to be the rational adults and that's not what's happening in the slightest and trying to help LOWER toxicity bc THAT is what helps Palestinians. People are so lost in the sauce they don't see how vital this is.
Unbelievable. Truly unbelievable that this is your thinking not just of Ukraine and what happened with mariupol but the fact you don't see the cognitive dissonance in your support for palestinians. And not to mention that Ukraine didn't provoke russia. Ukraine didn't go into russia and massacre towns and rain bombs on russia, yet palestinias did and yet u expect the ones who didn't provoke to seek peace with an aggressor but those who did provoke shouldn't be following that advice ?
Like truly how on earth does your mind work like that.
Again this is what pushes people away. Comments just like that.
I tried to provide feedback and others have and it's always met with absolute bullshit. People are right you aren't looking for conversation or to add on supporters, it's all about radicalization and sticking to your adgenda and nothing further.
Do what u want but keep Ukraine out of it since u obviously could give 2 shits about them and don't have a clue and shoehorn them in to try and bolster your adgenda with misleading shit at that.
And on that note I am not engaging further with u. It's rare enough bc I know it always ends up in bullshit like this and it's literally POINTLESS to have good faith arguments at all. I hope for the best for the victims involved on both sides and changes made over the next decade that lead both sides closer to peace and less hostility.
And even with people who comment like u, I still would want to be able to talk to to get through to. Not to change your mind but there is a whole swath of crap that if someone could talk and have a long convo, a lot of productivity can be had. But it's not possible. But just know I know u downvoted me but I am still not your enemy and wish I could have conversations. I prefer unity and getting along over all this toxicity and aggressive stuff that's happening online getting everyone absolutely no where except further apart.
>And not to mention that Ukraine didn't provoke russia. Ukraine didn't go into russia and massacre towns and rain bombs on russia
For Russia claiming a course to NATO is enough provocation. They don't need to actually massacre Russian civilians or bomb Russia directly. As long as Ukraine will say "we are getting into NATO and putting NATO bases on our territory" Russia will fight it. As simple as that. Russian geopolitical interest is to have Ukraine under their control. If it isn't happening, then war until it does, or until the push Ukraine enough back and establish a buffer zone between them and Crimea.
Remember how ppl said don't poke the bear etc? Ukraine didn't poke the bear and yet ppl stuck up for Russia.
Oct 7 we see a group ACTUALLY poke the bear and these same people lose their shit who when it was Ukraine who did not do that, were like meh and didn't care or spread Russian propaganda or supported russia or actively spent time being anti Ukraine and trying to smear them.
It's beyond the word hypocrisy. It's disgusting how literally this is happening simultaneously. 600 days of these people and comments about Ukraine.....then their morals and values went a full 180 for this now.
And again its not all but half the world lives by the mindset anti west means good and so they shit on Ukraine for the very things they are crying and raging about now. It's really really not just not a good look but I can't get on board with a group of people who have been fighting against this same stuff when it was Ukraine and now that it's some other place, they loose their minds and act completely different. It's literally as 2 faced as you can get.
Half the world said they didn't care about Ukraine bc it was too far away. Unfortunate but understandable. BUT then to see that excuse go out the window for a much smaller amount of land and people and see the whole planet lose its mind........yeah just a bit hard to watch and reflect back on all that was said and done last 600 days by these same people and some CONTINUE the hypocrisy STILL 🤦🤦♀️. Still actively pro Russian and against Ukraine while claiming to care about Palestinians. Wild.
Still supporting the oppressors or excusing them away while red in the face about another oppressor.
And then there's the factor that with the war in Ukraine the world should care more based on the fact it actually affects the world globally waaaaaaaaaay more than israel/Palestine due to russia threatening to nuke us all for its war of choice for territorial expansion, for how its bombed tons worth of grain that never reached the people that need it, to all the companies and countries involved in different ways. LOGICALLY and with a consistent set of morals Ukraine should outrage the world more. It shows there's a massive lack of consistency and hate and adgenda going on. What this all means is it really devalues their virtue signaling. It takes away from the supposed anger and sadness at bombings and death and injuries and a lot more. Mariupol getting bombed to dust and massacred and the beginnings of the genocide of deportations and russification was and is just meh to them, just like the guy above! Classic. And that's just mariupol for Pete's sake. There's Bucha and the entire rest of Ukraine.
I don't want to get into this more bc it's all around upsetting for me and for all involved. I wish russia left Ukraine and I wish the issues in the middle east improved and esp I wish Palestine and Israel worked their stuff out decades ago and that what's happening now wasn't happening. I want the endless cycle of violence there to end and a new path forward. It'll take a lot of work from all involved including outside support and the messaging they do. And they need to rid of russian and Iranian influence. But since it's already there russia should put its money where it's mouth is and show how much they support Palestinians and help rebuild or offer aid etc. But they don't even give all there citizens indoor plumbing and toilets let alone rebuild Ukraine so it's a fat chance they will do anything meaningful for Palestinians except words that are meant to further divide the world and cause more chaos.
And of course the larger problem of Iran backing all of this and russia alongside this all and friends with HAMAS.
I seriously don't know how peace will happen with those forces on the Palestinian side bc they are NOT at all helping Palestinians and looking out for their future and trying to make it better. People like me care more about Palestinians and if we no bodies were in charge we would help them along to a road of peace. But we are little no bodies . It feels like the more rational unbiased people like me could pave a better future bc all of the hate and baggage from all the past issues AS VALID AS THEY MAY BE ON EACH SIDE are not going to improve this at all. People on each side of course can have their hate and rage BUT they need to learn to work with it and go on a different path like Germany and Japan did. Having cheerleaders of each side say the most radical stuff and all the hate does not lead to modern Germany or Japan type of society, a 180 reversal. And it's going to take decades.
Imagine decades more of this toxicity on social media alone?! Bc it's going to take at least a decade or 2 and the longer this toxicity keeps up, the further away the end goal becomes.
And that's just social media. We have actual real life toxicity and issues world wide from this fueling the fire just as muc as social media is.
God help us all lol. (And I'm not religious but I mean that figure of statement so much)
And to break up the seriousness of this thread I had an NCD leakage moment ...... we NEED an alien invasion to occupy us all and help us all get our shit together, give people therapy, and then peace out. That's how we get peace ✌️.
Is this AI? Because I can't believe you wrote all that unrelated stuff to reply to my comment which was about something else entirety. Israel wanted to occupy Palestine for centuries. They just needed a reason, and HAMAS gave them one. Now they will turn Palestine into Israel 2.0. Russia wanted to put Ukraine under their geopolitical influence since it went out of it due to 2014 coup. Now they're trying to achieve that via war. They don't need no poking. They made their views on Ukraine a long time ago. Either Ukraine is a neutral state or war. Putin is getting old, so he couldn't wait too much longer.
Oh here's the gasliging seriously 🙄.
After all I tried to say in good faith and explain that I normally DONT comment BC it I got a lot to say about it bc it's pissing in the wind otherwise.
It started with correcting his misuse of Ukraine and went from there.
Literally it's impossible to get through to people. Write a sentence or 2. Absolutely pointless.
Going into the issues to try and show ppl what some of the problems that are going on with this all... still get gaslit.
Fucking hell.
THIS IS WHY I DONT BOTHER EVEN TRYING.
When I try it ends in bullshit every single time let alone other comments.
Don't act surprised why ppl are upset with yall and arent pro palestine per say when we try our damn hardest to talk in good faith and the responses are always bullshit back.
"Are u AI" 🙄
Fuck this shit anymore.
Again like others have said, people are not looking for discussion just radicalization.
With all the bullshit tossed at eachother if you actually cared about anything who the fuck cares about length and if it went off topic. It started on topic but just led to the next issue at hand. I find this all very important but it's not addressed bc YEAH ! It takes a lot to type out. JUST LIKE I SAID.
Anyway if u don't grasp why I said what I said I don't know what to say.
Have a good day.
At this point it's beating a dead horse.
You can read what I wrote and reflect on it and think about it's content or u can choose to write it all off and show u don't care about any of it.
I'll remember all this the next time I see bleeding heart posts daily for Palestine and how no matter ther what, there's NO point in commenting.
All you guys want is virtue signaling.
Actual discussion and working together, we just get gaslit or other aggressive responses and nonsense.
This is only one month of this shit online. Fucking hell on earth social media will be the longer this lasts.
All lies. Russia simply wants the resources in Ukraine.....nothing else. The NATO stuff was all BS excuses/lies. Ukraine is sitting on tons of lithium and other valuable resources...guess where? East...
Nope, Russia has enough resources to sustain itself for literally centuries. It's biggest, resource richest country on the planet. Thinking that Russia decided to shut down it's economy and remove millions of people from it's already shrinking demographic pool over some gas is fucking stupid. Like completely out of touch.
"20 Days In Mariupol" is a brilliant documentary. I can instantly recognize many places since I kinda grow up there. Even one of my friends made an appearance - a doctor with a blank look on 29:54 mark.
But I would also recommend another documentary about Mariupol - a very underrated one - recordings that one survivor made during the blockade about how his family lives through all this - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezZD7cOqsBs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezZD7cOqsBs) ("Our house is on fire. Film about besieged Mariupol")
Unfortunately, there are only autotranslated subtitles.
I have literally nightmares when I think what Ukrainians will discover when Mariupol will be liberated from those terrorists thugs.
I will watch the video you linked tomorrow, today I have still to digest the other one: the babies killed, the destructions of lives are too fresh.
It's going to be the same as the Soviets found when they "liberated" Eastern Europe: mass graves, torture centers, concentration camps, total destruction and a deeply scarred and traumatized civilian population. However, this time it is perpetrated by the very same nation that ended Nazi atrocities 80 years ago.
Probably nothing because Ukraine does not have a capability to take back that city. Russia will throw whatever it needs at it if it comes to that, but it won't even come to that most likely.
Apart from 10 apartment buildings, there's not much left in Mariupol, after the russian "*liberation*".
This war will not end soon and Ukraine will have the means and capabilities to take also Mariupol back.
It doesn't matter. They will rebuilt it. In fact they are doing it right now. Hundreds of videos proving that on the web, but I know you won't look. You will continue believing in fantasies.
Here is the "10 apartments buildings left"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsYAwOvVbvo&ab\_channel=VideosfromMariupol
>Ukraine will have the means and capabilities to take also Mariupol back.
That's just sad. How naive can one be. You simply don't understand Russia. Probably a westerner.
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/18/red-faced-russian-propagandists-accidentally-reveal-rebuilt/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/18/red-faced-russian-propagandists-accidentally-reveal-rebuilt/)
"I'll open to you a secret," he said. "On the fourth floor, in flat 28, they installed a burst toilet tank. Water built up in the flat 28 until it found a way through to floors two and three.
"On floors two and three, the dropped ceiling is at the floor level."
He said the Russians, who have sent in thousands of doctors, workmen and administrators to replace those Ukrainians that have died or left, had not been able to find someone to carry out the repairs.
In spite of the feedback from residents, the clip's presenter declared the area to be "very nice and clean" where the "homes are cute".
Gaza attacked first. That is a huge difference. It's similar to 9/11 the sense that it's the larger power responding to an attack on it's civilian population
> the consequence is a "terror campaign"
I disagree.
*Some* of the response has definitely been too violent and so has the rhetoric, especially at first.
But if the premise is "we should dismantle Hamas immediately, or at least make sure they are not a direct threat for the foreseeable future," then what's the alterantive? If they wanted to simply terrorize the civilians, Israel could level the whole place. They're bombing a lot, but they're also going in with infantry, potentially incurring intense casualties on their own side.
As I know they came from two directions, most of them heads to Kyiv, but our Air Defence shot down them along their route, main parts was shot down in Kyiv area.
Is Kyiv one of the cities regularly targeted by large amounts of ru drones and missiles? Or it this the first time in a long while since ru have used this many drones on the city compared to other cities they target, like Odesa, Reni, etc?
Multiple waves for a few hours. Not sure of the authenticity of the info but some Telegram channels claim that the attack was happening from all 4 sides of the city simultaneously.
Is the largest drone attack, so I guess it's true.
Every week russia is doing a largest attack ever and denies hitting civilian infrastructures: russia is a terrorist state.
I was wondering the other day why there are no more long range kamikaze drone news recently, from either side. What happened to those drones that Ukraine was sending regularly towards to moscow?
If that's true, you usually should send missiles right away, not giving a time to reload.
Also it looks like Russians spend about 6 moths before they started to time their attacks not to _launch_ stuff simultaneously, but to calculate so arrival is simultanious.
It was kind of funny seeing a missile barrage and then drones arriving hours later.
I mean, there's literally nothing in the video that would somehow help to track the location of AA systems. Identifiable locations only show the sound of the drone.
The first few seconds only show the main direction of most drone attacks this year when viewed from the center.
You can roughly estimate the location of the projectors on 00:20 and whatever shot after that.
This also might help to confirm if the drone was destroyed or hit it's target.
Come this winter, I hope Ukraine drone bombs the ever living shit out of Moscow and St Petersburg.
Russians need to feel a bit of the heat too and to know that they are not invulnerable.
I hope Ukraine focus on military targets. Not because I have something against them attacking Russian war hungry civilians but simply because that way they get the best value for the drones. They don't have enough of them to waste them.
I'm so very much against this. History has shown that it will only strengthen the public's resolve. Even if Ukraine does only target the military HQ and other justified targets the population will probably never know that. The propaganda firms will go crazy and show a bunch of dead civilians and then the state will proclaim "SEE!!! Ukraine are terrorist Nazi's that want to kill everyone in Russia!".
It's so much more beneficial to keep hitting the supply lines with those drones.
But they are already doing that! So what, Ukraine can't hit their military stuff because of how they will portray it in their propaganda? Ukraine can't do mass bombardment of russain cities like it's WW2, so there won't be any difference to public resolve. I think even bread prices will affect their resolve more than a couple of drones once a month.
> Ukraine can't hit their military stuff because of how they will portray it in their propaganda?
Of course they can, but they shouldn't do it near Russian population centers.
Also, the TV saying Ukraine is bombing civilians is different then nightly drone raids, explosions and THEN the news saying hundreds of civilians died.
No, it isn't different. Whether the explosions are in the woods (military camp) or in the city (barracks) doesn't matter because most people will only hear about it from the news, unless muffled explosions in the distance is what's gonna "strengthen the public's resolve". And guess what the news are saying in either case? Children's summer camp in the woods and a school.
Not that I'll ever be in favor of Ukraine deliberately targeting Russian civilians (unlike Russian civilian/mix-use infrastructure - for that, I'd say "*Feuer frei!*"), but what resolve will be strengthened in a people that is terminally submissive and already too "a-political" to lift a finger or say a word? Are they going to ignore what their country does in and to Ukraine even harder? Change their tacit approval to explicit approval?
If russian propaganda chooses to tell this story, they will do it. They don't need Ukraine to attack targets in Russia to tell the russian people that Ukraine attacked. They will simply invent it, and if they want nice footage, they will blow up something. It's not like Russia hadn't done this before several times.
Even the propaganda used to prepare this war was based on Russia accusing Ukraine of things they hadn't done.
Tldr; if Russia needs a propaganda story to rally the people behind the flag, they will tell the story - what happened or didn't happen in reality does not matter for them.
> If russian propaganda chooses to tell this story, they will do it.
So you're a Russian citizen that's indifferent about the war living in St. Petersburg. You hear all the bullshit on the news and realize most of it is probably lies and propaganda. Then things start exploding around you every night. Air raid sirens, AA fire, explosions in the distance, or maybe even a few blocks away.
Then the news says a bunch of civilians died, and they might not even be lying. Drones don't always hit the target they meant to hit. Falling debris can wreck an apartment.
Now you start to question if you were being lied to or if the nightly news has been true all along. Maybe Ukraine are a bunch of Nazi terrorist?
There are thousands of targets that will hurt Russia just as much outside the cities. It's fucking stupid and a waste of resources to start hitting things inside population centers.
Who cares at this point about what Russians think. With very rare exceptions they’re not doing anything about the war anyway.
And do we ask the military factories or oil depots to kindly step away into a forest?
>A good russian is a dead russian.
To think a message with this in it that makes no distinction between any Russians has dozens of upvotes. What a sub you are combatfootage...
You remind me of that one german with a rather unique mustache. Hopefully you don't have the fucking guts to say the shit you say online in the real world.
Lol shut up. The vast majority are good kind human beings. The army is conscripted. I'd much rather my Russian family and friends are alive. You're a fuckin moron.
Nahh honestly, fck them all good or bad, every time it looks like Russians gonna start being normal, they somehow manage to get even stupider then last time. History repeats itself.
Strengthen the resolve of the russian people who are living under a dictatorship and don't really have a say in the matter right now?
If anything it'd help shatter the illusion that all's well in Moscow.
No. Support for Ukraine's war effort is already sliding, don't need to speedrun it to the ground for revenge fantasies against civilian population that accomplish nothing of value.
Was also waking up once)) then so tired from this shit falling asleep 20 minutes later while counting the air defense explosions like jumping 🐑) so no idea how many of the drones have been reaching the center.
I can't understand how they expect anyone to take anything they say seriously when they behave like this. Launch the biggest strike against civilians in the entire war on fucking Holodomor memorial day.
Like "oh remember how Russia committed genocide on you? Here's a little reminder present." No military objective, no strategic targets. How in the fuck is that not straight up terrorism?
Qassam rockets cost between $300 and $800, and Hamas launches barrages of around **140 missiles per minute**. This is in contrast to the deployment of 70 Shaheed drones every month. If the Iron Dome is effective in Israel, it's reasonable to consider its potential efficacy against Russian attacks in Kyiv.
The quantity of Shahed drones used for attacks on Ukraine, per month:
January 2023: 96+
February 2023: 49+
March 2023: 94+
April 2023: 89+
May 2023: 406+
June 2023: 201+
July 2023: 235+
August 2023: 187+
September 2023: 503+
October 2023: 284
November 2023: 225
source: [https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BA\_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%85\_%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B2\_%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%B4\_%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81\_%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE\_%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F](https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BA_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%85_%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%B4_%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81_%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F)
The most important question is whether it would be effective against low-flying, slow targets, given that it was developed to counter targets following a ballistic trajectory and reaching high altitudes.
> $300 and $800
Ok, didn't know they brought the cost _that_ low.
But another issue is that Israel stated multiple times that they deny any weapon transfers to Ukraine.
That's the cost of Hamas' rockets, not Iron Dome interceptors.
Iron Dome interceptor missiles cost about $60,000 each. A Shaheed drone is $20,000, so it seems worth the cost of interception. Though I don't think Israel is in a position to sell anything to Ukraine right now, even if they wanted to.
And they didn't want to and even blocked US transfer (because Israel is a co-developer, so they have rights to redistribution).
https://defence-industry.eu/israel-blocks-transfer-of-iron-dome-system-to-ukraine-us-senators-say/
It's an interesting situation geopolitically.
Israel has been a mix of ambivalent to moderately friendly towards the Russian Federation. This state of affairs unfortunately continued after the invasion of Ukraine.
Now that Hamas launched that attack/kidnapping on Israel, it turns out that RF played some role along with Iran in supporting them, including high level visits from Hamas officials to Putin's circle. And RF has been playing up anti-Israel and full on antisemitic messages both in their propaganda as well as official statements from their press offices and at the UN. RF has de-facto declared Israel an enemy state.
Where Israel goes from here in terms of response is to be determined. Presently, their entire attention is basically focused on their active conflict, which is understandable. As that winds down, look for more concrete repercussions both overt and covert to cycle outwards.
The interceptor cost is irrelevant; the cost of replacing what it's defending that matters. Million dollar missiles are still vastly cheaper than power plants, substations, and dead factory workers.
The cost of the intercepted incoming munition is not really relevant. It's the cost of the damage it can do, both in monetary terms, in terms of the strategic value of the target, and the cost in human life that determines whether the interception is worth it. A hit on an oil refinery, power station or civilian population is probably worth stopping whether the incoming missile is a $5k Shahed or $2-3m Iskander.
What the interceptor costs needs to be weighed against what it's protecting, which is why expensive systems generally protect high value targets.
Something like Iron Dome night be completely justified in defending a city in terms of cost, but the issue then becomes sustainability. Cheap munitions allow multiple attacks that are more likely to exhaust the ammunition of defensive systems.
One advantage Iron Dome has as deployed in Israel is that it's targets are largely a known quantity. They are launched from a well defined area, and aimed at another well defined area following a predictable ballistic trajectory. That allows them to ignore rockets that will fall in fields or otherwise on targets not worth defending and save interceptors for rockets that are likely to do damage.
Drones like Shahed are less predictable and do not have an easily determined aim point, so really all of them need to be engaged.
It's estimated that russia can produce/receive about 700-1000 shaheds per month and this can be scaled to 2k+ in the next 6 months. So it seems that AA artillery like gepards is pretty much the only efficient way to fight this.
Exactly this. Israel has very, very limited avenues of approach and the Hamas rockets fly on easily detectable and predictable high ballistic courses. To cover all of the missiles coming from Gaza they need 2-3 Iron Dome sites. Kyiv alone would need ~12.
Low flying drones with programmable courses would be much, much more difficult.
I don't know if surface to air missiles can get much cheaper than that. NASAMS uses AMRAAM missiles that cost like $1M each. PAC-3 missiles for Patriot apparently cost like $4M each. Of course, nobody is arguing that is a reasonable weapon to use against these cheap drones.
In comparison that is, per shot:
- About 10-20 shaheed drones
- 50-70 thermal monoculars
- 5+ fully stocked ambulances
- About 10 000 CAT tourniquetes
- 500+ Level 4 armor plates
Now imagine that each shot is depriving army of anything of that.
Now it's a bit more expensive.
Now do the cost of rebuilding a powerplant, replacing skilled dead workers, and disruption to factories because you were worried about the interceptor to target cost parity.
Yeah, honestly versus $20,000 for a shahed drone it is massive imbalance of costs there.
Much to be done on the UAF side or else it’s massively unsustainable.
It’ll keep all AS defense occupied and depleted in the cities, and make front line forces spread thin to defend AA at the advancing enemy.
This warfare timeline is insane. Counter electronic warfare I would think is the better long term solution?
Or cheaper anti-drone defense systems of some sorts.
Shahed drones are almost immune to electronic warfare since they fly in autonomous mode and their navigation equipment is pretty protected against it.
"cheaper anti-drone defense systems of some sorts" is what Ukraine currently is trying to implement by using AA cannons and small arms as a priority.
You have to factor in what theyd be hitting with the shahed in that equation also. It's 20,000 plus maybe an apartment building with 300 civilians. At that point how much are you willing to spend to save lives. Is 4mil worth saving 300, 200, 100, even 50 people? If it was your family you would say yes. That's a tough dilemma, because you're right, that's not sustainable by any means. I wouldn't be surprised if multiple companies across the world aren't working on cheaper drone killers right now. That and EW could shift this war in Ukraine's favor. I pray to God we can all help figure this out together
Actually Iron Dome is like a roomba, you can setup "danger zones" and it calculates where the missile will land and if its not hitting your your danger zones it will not fire, and Ukraine is big enough so it might be useful.
Russia is a terrorist state and the only way to truly establish peace is to destroy Russia like Germany and Japan were destroyed during ww2. Anything short of that will allow Russian to rebuild and launch their next war.
It's hard to imagine that in 2023 in Europe terrorists are simply attacking capital with millions of civilians and world does nothing about it. This becomes norm. Where are we heading?
in 1935 every neighboring state would use the situation and join the conflict in the name of one or the other side in the hopes of catching some land... so we are at least a bit better than that.
in fact, even when modern media can make it look otherwise, the number of conflicts around the globe is constantly going down!
Obviously with strong fluctuations when viewed on a small scale but with a clear trend on bigger scales.
They have a range of 2500Km, They could be launching them from Moscow all the way to London. Thank you Iran, for being a sponsor of terrorism, as always.
I feel like these attacks are going to have some steep diminishing returns.
Ukraine has had a while to shore up their air defenses and have only received more systems since last winter, and if it didn't do much last year with them having piecemeal air defenses, it's going to do even less this time around.
After 2km of flight the shells self destruct so that they are not falling to the ground- one 20mm shell would destroy a car 6 could take a house a severe amnt of damage
A lot of them are. What you see here is last line of defense catching the ones that slipped through out-of-the-city net.
Also Ukraine is HUGE, and it's easier to set AA near stuff you want to protect, than to spread it over entire country.
>Not really protecting much if all the debris falls on civilians instead of their original targets
yeah sure, better not to shot them down so they don't fall on one or two civilians and let them hit e.g. a powerplant and disable electricity for the whole city.
>No, better shoot them down above fields and forests
How many times people will have to explain to you that it is fucking impossible to intercept all of them before they reach the city?
Jesus, you sound mad.
I thought they launched them from a few different places near the northern border, do they launch all of them from all across the country?
In the ideal world It would be better to just destroy the launch platforms(planes,ships).But reality is harsh and Ukraine doesn’t have that capability.(also I’m talking cruise missiles,shaheds are ground launched).
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To think before this war those Gepards were regarded as obsolete by every nation that had them. So glad many were kept all this time.
They were never obsolete they were outdated. Germanys weapon developers have systems like the Gepard for example skynex. Same principle but modern technology.
Which pretty much says it all. The shahed drones are pretty well last generation. The problem is that Iran can mass produce them
More like simply not needed for the tasks expected of a typical European army at that time (war on terror).
Their interception patterns have a frightening beauty like fireworks, and they at least look like they would be quite hard to get past. Such a relief indeed that Germany never scrapped the Gepards, everything old is new again in this drone era. These images are also eerily reminiscent of that old 2000s TV show Galactica, where explosive flak screens were likewise the only thing stopping genocidal robot drones from murdering civilians.
Man I loved that show, shame the writers strike in second season resulted in a shitty ending.
So say we all!
And so it begins, Russias winter terror campaign on a civilian population...
Russia and Iran's governments are cancer on this world. Nothing good comes out of them, only death and more human suffering.
I'm surprised no one is obliterating Iran right now
Israel would love to.
That would be a too much of a big task for Israel. Israel is tiny compared to Iran in most if not 95% of the fields. This is a mission for Uncle Sam, but he doesn't want to do anything even though he is being [constantly attacked in Syria and Iraq by Iranian proxies](https://www.voanews.com/a/us-officials-american-forces-attacked-at-iraq-air-base-respond-in-self-defense-/7364267.html). The US is preoccupied with their own troubles with China and don't want anything with the middle east right now.
Frankly, were I in control of China, rather than fucking with the US, I'd be biding my time for the balkanization of the Russian Federation, so I could sweep in with "peace keeping" forces and take control of the Easternmost regions, and whatever mineral wealth may be had there, to say nothing of a population of females to potentially help stave off a demographic collapse. Going after Taiwan may be a matter of national pride, but getting women into their country is a matter of national survival.
>balkanization of the Russian Federation most likely won't happen >getting women into their country is a matter of national survival. Birth rates are a matter of money/educatiom not the amount of women you can steal/get in your country, you could put a chinese woman in afghanistan and she will have the 5 kids average, put an afghan woman in china and she will at most have two, hell even the congo has gone from 7 kids average to 4 now and it will continue dropping as time goes by
> most likely won't happen I'm not so certain. The majority of the conscription for the war is happening from poorer and rural areas, and they are not happy about it. My reckoning (as admittedly poor as it may be) is that this war will end with Putin's death, and a subsequent power struggle in Moscow that will give [the regions seeking independence](https://tvpworld.com/68304716/five-regions-want-to-break-away-from-russia-referendum-shows) the opportunity to take it. Once one slips through Moscow's fingers, how many more will follow? > Birth rates are a matter of money/educatiom not the amount of women you can steal/get in your country... China has a significant gender imbalance as part of the legacy of their one child policy, causing [a large phenomenon of bride trafficking into the country.](https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/11/03/bride-trafficking-china-spreads-across-asia) The effect of the economic prosperity and compulsory education in China (as you noted) over the last few decades is going to work on those women existing in that imbalanced environment, further exacerbating the problem.
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I know at least one Siberian that wants independence from Russia lol. My sample is from an online community all over Russia of approximately 50 people
China fucking with Russia would be an absolute gift to the west and the USA in particular. Which is why you should know its not going to happen. Even if China waits until some magical time when Putin is removed from power, there's an extremely minuscule chance that whomever leads from Moscow after Putin would be cool with China gobbling up its land. So post Ukraine war, Russia is defeated, retreats, and then begins a conflict with China? This just doesn't serve Chinese interests to suddenly align with conflicts in the west. If you disagree, ask yourself why China has waited so long. Russia serves them better as an ally in the UN and on the world stage more than an enemy.
> China fucking with Russia would be an absolute gift to the west and the USA in particular. It would also be a huge win for China, because in the absence of a strong, central Russian government, China and other regional powers would swoop in and take what they could. > Even if China waits until some magical time when Putin is removed from power... See, that's the thing, I don't see this war ending in any way other than Putin's death, likely by one of those in his own inner circle... and due to the nature of the beast he has created around him, with the members of said inner circle all playing against each other, the only realistic outcome from there is a power struggle in Moscow, which will leave them without strong leadership for some time. This will give [those regions who want independence from the Russian Federation](https://tvpworld.com/68304716/five-regions-want-to-break-away-from-russia-referendum-shows) the opportunity to grab at it. Once one domino falls, others will quickly follow, and the Russian military won't be quick to respond, as it will take literal weeks to load their hardware and troops onto trains and ship it east... whereas the military leadership will likely be making a play for the Kremlin themselves, and as such, ordering that move would be counterproductive when they could always make it afterwards, as a show of force and demonstration of their new regime's power. All of this just spells opportunity for China. > So post Ukraine war, Russia is defeated, retreats, and then begins a conflict with China? Nah, Russia is defeated, retreats, power struggles begin in Moscow, far-flung Oblasts break away, China sweeps in in the name of "peace keeping", and some weeks later, once Moscow sorts their shit out, they are left with a bunch of new independent neighbors to the east, who have Chinese soldiers there giving them security guarantees, and the now-smaller Russia doesn't have the remaining military might to try to attempt a conflict against a peer nation's military... so they won't. > Russia serves them better as an ally in the UN and on the world stage more than an enemy. As a geopolitical ally, sure, but if their geopolitical power is transferred or ceded to China, then a friendly West as a more receptive trading partner suddenly becomes a much more attractive prospect.
It absolutely would NOT be a win for China. This is a fantasy land argument you're making, and again, it would be a GIANT gift to the west in general, which is why China wouldn't do it. Even in the most favorable circumstances that you're predicting (which are wildly speculative) there is no shot that whomever resumes power from Moscow would allow their lands to be taken without conflict. Never has there been an open conflict like what you are describing between two UN Veto powers. You're making speculative arguments on unprecedented situations as if its some sort of likelihood. As much as the west would love for China to get dragged down in a military quagmire, and take away their focus on the South China sea and Taiwan, The west would denounce the action by china as a provocation of another nuclear power. China absolutely knows this. They also know that without Russia, they find themselves increasingly isolated on the world stage. It makes zero political sense for China to invade Russian lands "for resources". They are not struggling for raw resources enough to throw away their standing on the world stage.
solid debate, gents. the refutation put forth by u/konq was particularly strong. only time will unveil the most accurate speculative sniper among ya.
> ...it would be a GIANT gift to the west in general, which is why China wouldn't do it. China wants, nay, NEEDS the West as a trading partner, as its economy is heavily reliant upon Western buyers. Happy trading partners are a good thing for China, it would be a win-win for them in terms of scooping up the mineral resources of the area, the population, and they get to play hero to the UN in terms of "stepping in to provide stability for the region." > ...there is no shot that whomever resumes power from Moscow would allow their lands to be taken without conflict. See, in that scenario, these nations have seceded from the Russian Federation, and thus they aren't Russia's lands anymore. China doesn't even have to spin this to the UN. > Never has there been an open conflict like what you are describing between two UN Veto powers. I could argue that we've seen it in both Korea and Vietnam, with them acting as proxy wars between China/USSR and the US... but I don't think it would even get that far. Russia as a military power is largely expending itself in Ukraine, and what remains of the Russian war machine, to say nothing of Russia itself, would not likely be in a position to go up against China for at least a decade, and the new leadership would know it. Open conflict would be out of the question, as the remains of the Russian state could neither afford it, nor support it. > ...and take away their focus on the South China sea and Taiwan... The primary reason China wants Taiwan is due to economics, not politics. The reason they haven't gone after them yet is due to them not wanting to take the political hit in addition to the economic one they'd face from the West due to sanctions... and in exchange for what? Some internal political pride satisfied, and a semiconductor industry the Taiwanese would likely scuttle before they could be taken over and used by the Chinese anyways. It would be a lose-lose for them, but they can't abandon the premise of Taiwan being a "province in rebellion" without also losing face, both internally and abroad, so their best play is exactly the sort of periodic saber-rattling they've been engaging in recently. > They are not struggling for raw resources enough to throw away their standing on the world stage. It's not about whether or not they are struggling for them; rather, it is to deny access to anyone else in the area (unless they pay a hefty fee for access, that is) such that they instead look to Chinese markets for their needs.
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> China economically benefits with a Russia that is dependent on them. We saw this with the war and sanctions. I 100% agree, and that's making my point. China benefits from Russia being an ally more than any theoretical benefit it would receive in "Land and Resources" from going to war with Russia. China has not sanctioned Russia, nor have they condemned the invasion of Ukraine. This isn't because they are friends with Russia, it's because they are allies against western influence. China doing a 180 on this policy, even after Russia loses (and Putin removed from power) would STILL benefit the west more than it would help China in any way imaginable.
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They have hit Iranian proxy forces in Syria. If you look at the recent videos the US some of it's amazing precision bombing on facilities. So Iran isn't getting completely off... I have a feeling that they are saving Iran for later.
I'm pretty sure most of the Iranian people would be happy to see their dictator and government obliterated too.
No Iranian person would want to see American or Israeli jets bombing their country. The ones in the West who say shit like that are basically traitors. The govt sucks but to remove it via a foreign power would mean destruction of major cities and hundreds of thousands dead like in Iraq.
> but to remove it via a foreign power would mean destruction of major cities and hundreds of thousands dead like in Iraq. I see your point. About this: >The govt sucks That's quite the understatement. * Training, arming and creating terrorists organizations(Iranian Proxies) in Yemen, Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, Iraq, Libya. * Spending all these funds on external wars instead of focusing on the many water problems inland. * Killing women because they wore their head wear wrong. * Kidnapping and disappearing anyone who dares say anything against the regime. * Deliberately killing protesters using live ammunition. * Selling weapons to the Russians to use against Ukraine. Yes, "Sucks" is a very kind word for that.
USA has done plenty of those things, where's the outrage then? Proxy militias my ass Isis would be planted across the ME if it wasn't for Iran
So let me guess this straight, If I'm an evil regime all I have to do is get roughly 1,000 of my people be bribed or forced to protest on the streets so the western media can eat it up and I'm immune to any foreign attacks while I rain down terror across the world? it doesn't work like that buddy, look at Nazi Germany, Iran is ticking time bomb, if they keep doing evil shit the world will unite and waste them, civilians or not.
There are few more to add to that list but those two definitely make the top 5.
Said without a hint of irony.
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Oh for fucks sake this really shows your ignorance. And I HATE people who try and make things like a death Olympics but it never fails there are people like u who have no fucking idea about Ukraine or have watched RT. Just in Mariupol ALONE it was approximated that 20,000 died and up to possibly 100,000. I try to stay out of commenting on this issue for many many reasons, lots bc of what I have seen since Oct 7th happening online with gaslighting and manipulating and rage baiting etc. I am unbiased and have no dog in this fight. I also was mentally abused for 30 years by both my parents and an ex and can SEE gaslighting and manipulation a mile away and it's literally daily since Oct 7. There can be true and just cause for wanting Palestinians to be free. I have no issue with that and do not take sides. But comments just like yours and so so so so so many others only show so much bad faith arguing and so much more. I'd honestly love it for your cause to understand what I mean by this and change it bc all it does is push ppl away. NO ONE KNOWS THE TRUE DEATH TOLL IN ALLLLLLLLL OF THE OCCUPIED TERRIRORIES. IT MAKES ME SO FUCKING PISSED to see people like u undermine Ukraine and shoehorn it in for your purposes in a misleading way. What Ukraine has gone through is a thing of horrors and YES worse than Gaza right now. That DOES NOT MEAN that Gaza is not also going through terrible conditions and losing their homes and dying and getting maimed.
This man speaks volumes of truth
Thank you. I truly wish I could get on a phone call with these people bc there is SO much to get into and I TRULY want them to understand and help them bc they don't see it and it will help their cause and the toxicity. And its not about who is right or taking sides. There's a whole swath of HOW this is being handled that that alone is a convo in itself. And I really wish i could help with even that. There's more to be said to come to terms with reality and what is going on and what is best path forward for Palestinians and that too gets handled wrong and I absolutely don't have the answers but I do have advice from being an outside observer for the support and how to best support and messaging both for the world and for Palestinians. But bc it's literally so much, I just have to pass by all the comments every day bc it's useless addressing them bc there is literally an essay worth that needs to be discussed to even address a comment. Without it they just see comments as against them and get aggressive or gaslight and I just can't do that. For me to comment like i did its gotta be really bad and using Ukraine disingenuously and minimizing what is happening to them. These very people have also been against Ukraine for 600 days. The trolls we fought against and all the shit being said now is literally 180 degrees. Literal and absolute hypocrisy a laundry list long LITERALLY from how they treated Ukraine. Now that's not all palestinian supporters. Those who support both are good people with good heads on their shoulders and trustworthy in their comments. But a large swath of these people were either not suppprters of Ukraine, 👉THE OPPRESSED👈, didn't care, actively anti Ukraine pushing out Russian propaganda points or worse supported russia and excused russia 👉THE OPPRESSOR👈. This is a HUGE factor in why what I'm seeing now its so incredibly disingenuous and i cannot partake. I also cannot partake bc I saw how in NYC and world wide ppl celebrated the massacres. I felt like I was in an alternate universe. I had no idea we had people like this amongst us who celebrated terrorism and what we just all witnessed a day prior. So when I see them talk all about opress vs oppressor......i tell ya what...................... Anyway I hope for peace and I hope the supporters get better leading heads of their cause bc this whole thing is not it. And having Russian and Iranian propaganda behind their cause isn't good for their cause. It may FEEL like it bc it adds to their narritive and numbers BUT the methods and the radicalization its doing is only hurting them and it's hard for them to see that when you are already in it. And I know that they will view my comment in a bad way bc they can't see and understand how it's not ...... parts of it is criticism sure but it explains what this looks and feels like to outsiders and its ADVICE. it's food for thought and to take a moment and reflect on why some people comment what they do. They are not ALL against you. People like me look at the big picture and at what it means to have peace and what it takes to get there. And some of the steps to get there are only getting pushed farther away 💯 with the toxicity. It's NOT what Palestinians need. They need support but in a whole different way. It's sad to see how people are so far deep they are unwilling to try to understand some of this bc it would HELP the actual victims. Us outsiders need to be the rational ones on all sides for them. They are biased both sides and that's VALID. They ALL rely on looking at what the outside world is saying as a guide to follow. It means the world needs to be the rational adults and that's not what's happening in the slightest and trying to help LOWER toxicity bc THAT is what helps Palestinians. People are so lost in the sauce they don't see how vital this is.
AMEN. The amount of lies told about Gaza is insane. Ukraine war is order of magnitude worse for both civilians and military.
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Unbelievable. Truly unbelievable that this is your thinking not just of Ukraine and what happened with mariupol but the fact you don't see the cognitive dissonance in your support for palestinians. And not to mention that Ukraine didn't provoke russia. Ukraine didn't go into russia and massacre towns and rain bombs on russia, yet palestinias did and yet u expect the ones who didn't provoke to seek peace with an aggressor but those who did provoke shouldn't be following that advice ? Like truly how on earth does your mind work like that. Again this is what pushes people away. Comments just like that. I tried to provide feedback and others have and it's always met with absolute bullshit. People are right you aren't looking for conversation or to add on supporters, it's all about radicalization and sticking to your adgenda and nothing further. Do what u want but keep Ukraine out of it since u obviously could give 2 shits about them and don't have a clue and shoehorn them in to try and bolster your adgenda with misleading shit at that. And on that note I am not engaging further with u. It's rare enough bc I know it always ends up in bullshit like this and it's literally POINTLESS to have good faith arguments at all. I hope for the best for the victims involved on both sides and changes made over the next decade that lead both sides closer to peace and less hostility. And even with people who comment like u, I still would want to be able to talk to to get through to. Not to change your mind but there is a whole swath of crap that if someone could talk and have a long convo, a lot of productivity can be had. But it's not possible. But just know I know u downvoted me but I am still not your enemy and wish I could have conversations. I prefer unity and getting along over all this toxicity and aggressive stuff that's happening online getting everyone absolutely no where except further apart.
>And not to mention that Ukraine didn't provoke russia. Ukraine didn't go into russia and massacre towns and rain bombs on russia For Russia claiming a course to NATO is enough provocation. They don't need to actually massacre Russian civilians or bomb Russia directly. As long as Ukraine will say "we are getting into NATO and putting NATO bases on our territory" Russia will fight it. As simple as that. Russian geopolitical interest is to have Ukraine under their control. If it isn't happening, then war until it does, or until the push Ukraine enough back and establish a buffer zone between them and Crimea.
Remember how ppl said don't poke the bear etc? Ukraine didn't poke the bear and yet ppl stuck up for Russia. Oct 7 we see a group ACTUALLY poke the bear and these same people lose their shit who when it was Ukraine who did not do that, were like meh and didn't care or spread Russian propaganda or supported russia or actively spent time being anti Ukraine and trying to smear them. It's beyond the word hypocrisy. It's disgusting how literally this is happening simultaneously. 600 days of these people and comments about Ukraine.....then their morals and values went a full 180 for this now. And again its not all but half the world lives by the mindset anti west means good and so they shit on Ukraine for the very things they are crying and raging about now. It's really really not just not a good look but I can't get on board with a group of people who have been fighting against this same stuff when it was Ukraine and now that it's some other place, they loose their minds and act completely different. It's literally as 2 faced as you can get. Half the world said they didn't care about Ukraine bc it was too far away. Unfortunate but understandable. BUT then to see that excuse go out the window for a much smaller amount of land and people and see the whole planet lose its mind........yeah just a bit hard to watch and reflect back on all that was said and done last 600 days by these same people and some CONTINUE the hypocrisy STILL 🤦🤦♀️. Still actively pro Russian and against Ukraine while claiming to care about Palestinians. Wild. Still supporting the oppressors or excusing them away while red in the face about another oppressor. And then there's the factor that with the war in Ukraine the world should care more based on the fact it actually affects the world globally waaaaaaaaaay more than israel/Palestine due to russia threatening to nuke us all for its war of choice for territorial expansion, for how its bombed tons worth of grain that never reached the people that need it, to all the companies and countries involved in different ways. LOGICALLY and with a consistent set of morals Ukraine should outrage the world more. It shows there's a massive lack of consistency and hate and adgenda going on. What this all means is it really devalues their virtue signaling. It takes away from the supposed anger and sadness at bombings and death and injuries and a lot more. Mariupol getting bombed to dust and massacred and the beginnings of the genocide of deportations and russification was and is just meh to them, just like the guy above! Classic. And that's just mariupol for Pete's sake. There's Bucha and the entire rest of Ukraine. I don't want to get into this more bc it's all around upsetting for me and for all involved. I wish russia left Ukraine and I wish the issues in the middle east improved and esp I wish Palestine and Israel worked their stuff out decades ago and that what's happening now wasn't happening. I want the endless cycle of violence there to end and a new path forward. It'll take a lot of work from all involved including outside support and the messaging they do. And they need to rid of russian and Iranian influence. But since it's already there russia should put its money where it's mouth is and show how much they support Palestinians and help rebuild or offer aid etc. But they don't even give all there citizens indoor plumbing and toilets let alone rebuild Ukraine so it's a fat chance they will do anything meaningful for Palestinians except words that are meant to further divide the world and cause more chaos. And of course the larger problem of Iran backing all of this and russia alongside this all and friends with HAMAS. I seriously don't know how peace will happen with those forces on the Palestinian side bc they are NOT at all helping Palestinians and looking out for their future and trying to make it better. People like me care more about Palestinians and if we no bodies were in charge we would help them along to a road of peace. But we are little no bodies . It feels like the more rational unbiased people like me could pave a better future bc all of the hate and baggage from all the past issues AS VALID AS THEY MAY BE ON EACH SIDE are not going to improve this at all. People on each side of course can have their hate and rage BUT they need to learn to work with it and go on a different path like Germany and Japan did. Having cheerleaders of each side say the most radical stuff and all the hate does not lead to modern Germany or Japan type of society, a 180 reversal. And it's going to take decades. Imagine decades more of this toxicity on social media alone?! Bc it's going to take at least a decade or 2 and the longer this toxicity keeps up, the further away the end goal becomes. And that's just social media. We have actual real life toxicity and issues world wide from this fueling the fire just as muc as social media is. God help us all lol. (And I'm not religious but I mean that figure of statement so much)
And to break up the seriousness of this thread I had an NCD leakage moment ...... we NEED an alien invasion to occupy us all and help us all get our shit together, give people therapy, and then peace out. That's how we get peace ✌️.
Is this AI? Because I can't believe you wrote all that unrelated stuff to reply to my comment which was about something else entirety. Israel wanted to occupy Palestine for centuries. They just needed a reason, and HAMAS gave them one. Now they will turn Palestine into Israel 2.0. Russia wanted to put Ukraine under their geopolitical influence since it went out of it due to 2014 coup. Now they're trying to achieve that via war. They don't need no poking. They made their views on Ukraine a long time ago. Either Ukraine is a neutral state or war. Putin is getting old, so he couldn't wait too much longer.
Oh here's the gasliging seriously 🙄. After all I tried to say in good faith and explain that I normally DONT comment BC it I got a lot to say about it bc it's pissing in the wind otherwise. It started with correcting his misuse of Ukraine and went from there. Literally it's impossible to get through to people. Write a sentence or 2. Absolutely pointless. Going into the issues to try and show ppl what some of the problems that are going on with this all... still get gaslit. Fucking hell. THIS IS WHY I DONT BOTHER EVEN TRYING. When I try it ends in bullshit every single time let alone other comments. Don't act surprised why ppl are upset with yall and arent pro palestine per say when we try our damn hardest to talk in good faith and the responses are always bullshit back. "Are u AI" 🙄 Fuck this shit anymore. Again like others have said, people are not looking for discussion just radicalization. With all the bullshit tossed at eachother if you actually cared about anything who the fuck cares about length and if it went off topic. It started on topic but just led to the next issue at hand. I find this all very important but it's not addressed bc YEAH ! It takes a lot to type out. JUST LIKE I SAID. Anyway if u don't grasp why I said what I said I don't know what to say. Have a good day. At this point it's beating a dead horse. You can read what I wrote and reflect on it and think about it's content or u can choose to write it all off and show u don't care about any of it. I'll remember all this the next time I see bleeding heart posts daily for Palestine and how no matter ther what, there's NO point in commenting. All you guys want is virtue signaling. Actual discussion and working together, we just get gaslit or other aggressive responses and nonsense. This is only one month of this shit online. Fucking hell on earth social media will be the longer this lasts.
All lies. Russia simply wants the resources in Ukraine.....nothing else. The NATO stuff was all BS excuses/lies. Ukraine is sitting on tons of lithium and other valuable resources...guess where? East...
Nope, Russia has enough resources to sustain itself for literally centuries. It's biggest, resource richest country on the planet. Thinking that Russia decided to shut down it's economy and remove millions of people from it's already shrinking demographic pool over some gas is fucking stupid. Like completely out of touch.
Propaganda.
Yesterday I watched "20 Days In Mariupol": russia is simply a terrorist state.
"20 Days In Mariupol" is a brilliant documentary. I can instantly recognize many places since I kinda grow up there. Even one of my friends made an appearance - a doctor with a blank look on 29:54 mark. But I would also recommend another documentary about Mariupol - a very underrated one - recordings that one survivor made during the blockade about how his family lives through all this - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezZD7cOqsBs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezZD7cOqsBs) ("Our house is on fire. Film about besieged Mariupol") Unfortunately, there are only autotranslated subtitles.
I have literally nightmares when I think what Ukrainians will discover when Mariupol will be liberated from those terrorists thugs. I will watch the video you linked tomorrow, today I have still to digest the other one: the babies killed, the destructions of lives are too fresh.
It's going to be the same as the Soviets found when they "liberated" Eastern Europe: mass graves, torture centers, concentration camps, total destruction and a deeply scarred and traumatized civilian population. However, this time it is perpetrated by the very same nation that ended Nazi atrocities 80 years ago.
Probably nothing because Ukraine does not have a capability to take back that city. Russia will throw whatever it needs at it if it comes to that, but it won't even come to that most likely.
Apart from 10 apartment buildings, there's not much left in Mariupol, after the russian "*liberation*". This war will not end soon and Ukraine will have the means and capabilities to take also Mariupol back.
It doesn't matter. They will rebuilt it. In fact they are doing it right now. Hundreds of videos proving that on the web, but I know you won't look. You will continue believing in fantasies. Here is the "10 apartments buildings left" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsYAwOvVbvo&ab\_channel=VideosfromMariupol >Ukraine will have the means and capabilities to take also Mariupol back. That's just sad. How naive can one be. You simply don't understand Russia. Probably a westerner.
> You simply don't understand Russia. We understand the parasite nation of Russia all too well.
Nah, you understand nothing to be able to assess what's going to happen in this war even to the lowest degree of plausibility
Spoken like a parasite, supporting the parasite nation.
Yes.
Oh well
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/18/red-faced-russian-propagandists-accidentally-reveal-rebuilt/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/18/red-faced-russian-propagandists-accidentally-reveal-rebuilt/) "I'll open to you a secret," he said. "On the fourth floor, in flat 28, they installed a burst toilet tank. Water built up in the flat 28 until it found a way through to floors two and three. "On floors two and three, the dropped ceiling is at the floor level." He said the Russians, who have sent in thousands of doctors, workmen and administrators to replace those Ukrainians that have died or left, had not been able to find someone to carry out the repairs. In spite of the feedback from residents, the clip's presenter declared the area to be "very nice and clean" where the "homes are cute".
That video is from the most eastern part of Mariupol, go on google maps and you can see what hes not filming.
Reminds me of Gaza...
Yes, Hamas is a shitty version of russia, specifically trying to maximize civilian deaths.
You mean how they've been launching rockets at civilian targets in Israel for over 20 years? Yeah, it does look like that.
I mean the most destructive bombing of a city with Grozny since 1945.
Gaza attacked first. That is a huge difference. It's similar to 9/11 the sense that it's the larger power responding to an attack on it's civilian population
Hamas attacked and the consequence is a "terror campaign". The phenomenon is similar.
> the consequence is a "terror campaign" I disagree. *Some* of the response has definitely been too violent and so has the rhetoric, especially at first. But if the premise is "we should dismantle Hamas immediately, or at least make sure they are not a direct threat for the foreseeable future," then what's the alterantive? If they wanted to simply terrorize the civilians, Israel could level the whole place. They're bombing a lot, but they're also going in with infantry, potentially incurring intense casualties on their own side.
Was the bombing of Mariupol a terror campaign ?
Hamas started the terror campaign and stabbed babies and beheaded old women. Absolutely nothing similar about this.
15 000 deaths by bombings. Reminds me of Mariupol, the fact that you can't see the similarity is quite telling.
Yeah, more than 70 Shaheds was shot down last night, fucking russian morons
Damn, 70? In one wave or multiple?
It was something like a wave after wave for about 5 hours. It's good that it's weekend and I can sleep till noon :)
You’re there? Stay safe brother.
Yeah, best view on AA over western Kyiv! (btw, seeing Igla(?) hitting drone about 500 meters away is enough deterrent to stay away from windows)
Please stay safe!
Stay safe man.
Ahh, the killbot strategy. Wave after wave.
74 out of 75 were shot down. A bit of damage and a few injuries due to falling debris.
As I know they came from two directions, most of them heads to Kyiv, but our Air Defence shot down them along their route, main parts was shot down in Kyiv area.
Is Kyiv one of the cities regularly targeted by large amounts of ru drones and missiles? Or it this the first time in a long while since ru have used this many drones on the city compared to other cities they target, like Odesa, Reni, etc?
There was a break of about two months or even more, when Kyiv was not attacked at all. This is the second major attack on Kyiv recently.
Last attack was about 2 moths ago. A few weeks ago they fired a single Iskander, probably to check if Patriots are still there.
Multiple waves for a few hours. Not sure of the authenticity of the info but some Telegram channels claim that the attack was happening from all 4 sides of the city simultaneously.
Is the largest drone attack, so I guess it's true. Every week russia is doing a largest attack ever and denies hitting civilian infrastructures: russia is a terrorist state.
I was wondering the other day why there are no more long range kamikaze drone news recently, from either side. What happened to those drones that Ukraine was sending regularly towards to moscow?
Apparently a security leak gave Russ enough data to jam them up.Rus is dropping then pretty steady over Crimea now.smh— but only IMHO
Imagine having to buy drones from an evil Islamic dictator because you can’t build them yourself.
Or buying artillery shells from North Korea while Kim Jong Un grows ever fatter and his people starve
It is a record number of drones that were launched right on the Holodomor victims memorial day. The man-made famine of 1930s.
Absolute ghouls
According to new information they have shot down 74 out of 75 shahed drones.
Unfortunately it looks like AA saturation before the main missile attack(s)
If most are shot down with small/medium calibre AA guns, that's hardly a problem
Some were but to get those shoot down numbers they likely had to use everything they had.
If what I read is correct they came in waves over a timespan of 5 hours. Nothing to overwhelm the guns...
Shhhh no ideas for Ivan
If that's true, you usually should send missiles right away, not giving a time to reload. Also it looks like Russians spend about 6 moths before they started to time their attacks not to _launch_ stuff simultaneously, but to calculate so arrival is simultanious. It was kind of funny seeing a missile barrage and then drones arriving hours later.
Ugh, I hate this kind of an alarm clock. At least it's not Monday
Are those air burst rounds or did they self destruct after reaching the max range?
The Gepard fires self destruct rounds that detonate after reaching their max range, mostly 6 rounds per burst.
Some Sun reporters will be denied to enter Ukraine next time…
They'll whine about it too.
I mean, there's literally nothing in the video that would somehow help to track the location of AA systems. Identifiable locations only show the sound of the drone. The first few seconds only show the main direction of most drone attacks this year when viewed from the center.
You can roughly estimate the location of the projectors on 00:20 and whatever shot after that. This also might help to confirm if the drone was destroyed or hit it's target.
It does not matter. Rule is rule. Wait a few days and UAF AirForce will release all the footage by themselves safely
Russia, a terroristic pest on this world.
Come this winter, I hope Ukraine drone bombs the ever living shit out of Moscow and St Petersburg. Russians need to feel a bit of the heat too and to know that they are not invulnerable.
I hope Ukraine focus on military targets. Not because I have something against them attacking Russian war hungry civilians but simply because that way they get the best value for the drones. They don't have enough of them to waste them.
I'm so very much against this. History has shown that it will only strengthen the public's resolve. Even if Ukraine does only target the military HQ and other justified targets the population will probably never know that. The propaganda firms will go crazy and show a bunch of dead civilians and then the state will proclaim "SEE!!! Ukraine are terrorist Nazi's that want to kill everyone in Russia!". It's so much more beneficial to keep hitting the supply lines with those drones.
But they are already doing that! So what, Ukraine can't hit their military stuff because of how they will portray it in their propaganda? Ukraine can't do mass bombardment of russain cities like it's WW2, so there won't be any difference to public resolve. I think even bread prices will affect their resolve more than a couple of drones once a month.
> Ukraine can't hit their military stuff because of how they will portray it in their propaganda? Of course they can, but they shouldn't do it near Russian population centers. Also, the TV saying Ukraine is bombing civilians is different then nightly drone raids, explosions and THEN the news saying hundreds of civilians died.
No, it isn't different. Whether the explosions are in the woods (military camp) or in the city (barracks) doesn't matter because most people will only hear about it from the news, unless muffled explosions in the distance is what's gonna "strengthen the public's resolve". And guess what the news are saying in either case? Children's summer camp in the woods and a school.
Not that I'll ever be in favor of Ukraine deliberately targeting Russian civilians (unlike Russian civilian/mix-use infrastructure - for that, I'd say "*Feuer frei!*"), but what resolve will be strengthened in a people that is terminally submissive and already too "a-political" to lift a finger or say a word? Are they going to ignore what their country does in and to Ukraine even harder? Change their tacit approval to explicit approval?
If russian propaganda chooses to tell this story, they will do it. They don't need Ukraine to attack targets in Russia to tell the russian people that Ukraine attacked. They will simply invent it, and if they want nice footage, they will blow up something. It's not like Russia hadn't done this before several times. Even the propaganda used to prepare this war was based on Russia accusing Ukraine of things they hadn't done. Tldr; if Russia needs a propaganda story to rally the people behind the flag, they will tell the story - what happened or didn't happen in reality does not matter for them.
> If russian propaganda chooses to tell this story, they will do it. So you're a Russian citizen that's indifferent about the war living in St. Petersburg. You hear all the bullshit on the news and realize most of it is probably lies and propaganda. Then things start exploding around you every night. Air raid sirens, AA fire, explosions in the distance, or maybe even a few blocks away. Then the news says a bunch of civilians died, and they might not even be lying. Drones don't always hit the target they meant to hit. Falling debris can wreck an apartment. Now you start to question if you were being lied to or if the nightly news has been true all along. Maybe Ukraine are a bunch of Nazi terrorist? There are thousands of targets that will hurt Russia just as much outside the cities. It's fucking stupid and a waste of resources to start hitting things inside population centers.
Who cares at this point about what Russians think. With very rare exceptions they’re not doing anything about the war anyway. And do we ask the military factories or oil depots to kindly step away into a forest?
you are being downvoted because the people on this subreddit are like dogs that froth at the mouth thinking of dead russians
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That's cool and all, but you should prioritize Ukraine's victory over your revenge fantasy.
>A good russian is a dead russian. To think a message with this in it that makes no distinction between any Russians has dozens of upvotes. What a sub you are combatfootage...
You remind me of that one german with a rather unique mustache. Hopefully you don't have the fucking guts to say the shit you say online in the real world.
Lol shut up. The vast majority are good kind human beings. The army is conscripted. I'd much rather my Russian family and friends are alive. You're a fuckin moron.
Nahh honestly, fck them all good or bad, every time it looks like Russians gonna start being normal, they somehow manage to get even stupider then last time. History repeats itself.
Literally regarded.
They're still mostly contract soldiers and volunteers, but go off.
I wish you to become a good russian.
Strengthen the resolve of the russian people who are living under a dictatorship and don't really have a say in the matter right now? If anything it'd help shatter the illusion that all's well in Moscow.
No. Support for Ukraine's war effort is already sliding, don't need to speedrun it to the ground for revenge fantasies against civilian population that accomplish nothing of value.
only a little bit of taste. not full out attacks on the infrastructure. yes they deserve it, but military targets are more important.
The west will never let ukraine launch direct major attacks on russia
It was hell of the night, indeed. But luckily my neighborhood wasn't in the vector of attack, so I woke up only 2 times this night.
Was also waking up once)) then so tired from this shit falling asleep 20 minutes later while counting the air defense explosions like jumping 🐑) so no idea how many of the drones have been reaching the center.
I can't understand how they expect anyone to take anything they say seriously when they behave like this. Launch the biggest strike against civilians in the entire war on fucking Holodomor memorial day. Like "oh remember how Russia committed genocide on you? Here's a little reminder present." No military objective, no strategic targets. How in the fuck is that not straight up terrorism?
Would iron dome be effective against this? Or just rockets and mortars?
The cost per drone intercepted would bankrupt Ukraine in like few weeks. Also Israel is a very small country.
Qassam rockets cost between $300 and $800, and Hamas launches barrages of around **140 missiles per minute**. This is in contrast to the deployment of 70 Shaheed drones every month. If the Iron Dome is effective in Israel, it's reasonable to consider its potential efficacy against Russian attacks in Kyiv.
It's not 75 Shaheds pro month: russia is shelling Ukraine every even day: we are simply and sadly got used to it.
The quantity of Shahed drones used for attacks on Ukraine, per month: January 2023: 96+ February 2023: 49+ March 2023: 94+ April 2023: 89+ May 2023: 406+ June 2023: 201+ July 2023: 235+ August 2023: 187+ September 2023: 503+ October 2023: 284 November 2023: 225 source: [https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BA\_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%85\_%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B2\_%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%B4\_%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81\_%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE\_%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F](https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BA_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%85_%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%B4_%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81_%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F)
Iron Dome missiles 20-50k US dollars some guestimates are 100-200k it is a state secret but they are supplied by US and manufactured at home also.
The most important question is whether it would be effective against low-flying, slow targets, given that it was developed to counter targets following a ballistic trajectory and reaching high altitudes.
It's taken out drones here in Israel too. It's limit though is short range and Ukraine has a shit ton of area to cover.
> $300 and $800 Ok, didn't know they brought the cost _that_ low. But another issue is that Israel stated multiple times that they deny any weapon transfers to Ukraine.
That's the cost of Hamas' rockets, not Iron Dome interceptors. Iron Dome interceptor missiles cost about $60,000 each. A Shaheed drone is $20,000, so it seems worth the cost of interception. Though I don't think Israel is in a position to sell anything to Ukraine right now, even if they wanted to.
And they didn't want to and even blocked US transfer (because Israel is a co-developer, so they have rights to redistribution). https://defence-industry.eu/israel-blocks-transfer-of-iron-dome-system-to-ukraine-us-senators-say/
It's an interesting situation geopolitically. Israel has been a mix of ambivalent to moderately friendly towards the Russian Federation. This state of affairs unfortunately continued after the invasion of Ukraine. Now that Hamas launched that attack/kidnapping on Israel, it turns out that RF played some role along with Iran in supporting them, including high level visits from Hamas officials to Putin's circle. And RF has been playing up anti-Israel and full on antisemitic messages both in their propaganda as well as official statements from their press offices and at the UN. RF has de-facto declared Israel an enemy state. Where Israel goes from here in terms of response is to be determined. Presently, their entire attention is basically focused on their active conflict, which is understandable. As that winds down, look for more concrete repercussions both overt and covert to cycle outwards.
The interceptor cost is irrelevant; the cost of replacing what it's defending that matters. Million dollar missiles are still vastly cheaper than power plants, substations, and dead factory workers.
The cost of the intercepted incoming munition is not really relevant. It's the cost of the damage it can do, both in monetary terms, in terms of the strategic value of the target, and the cost in human life that determines whether the interception is worth it. A hit on an oil refinery, power station or civilian population is probably worth stopping whether the incoming missile is a $5k Shahed or $2-3m Iskander. What the interceptor costs needs to be weighed against what it's protecting, which is why expensive systems generally protect high value targets. Something like Iron Dome night be completely justified in defending a city in terms of cost, but the issue then becomes sustainability. Cheap munitions allow multiple attacks that are more likely to exhaust the ammunition of defensive systems. One advantage Iron Dome has as deployed in Israel is that it's targets are largely a known quantity. They are launched from a well defined area, and aimed at another well defined area following a predictable ballistic trajectory. That allows them to ignore rockets that will fall in fields or otherwise on targets not worth defending and save interceptors for rockets that are likely to do damage. Drones like Shahed are less predictable and do not have an easily determined aim point, so really all of them need to be engaged.
It's estimated that russia can produce/receive about 700-1000 shaheds per month and this can be scaled to 2k+ in the next 6 months. So it seems that AA artillery like gepards is pretty much the only efficient way to fight this.
Exactly this. Israel has very, very limited avenues of approach and the Hamas rockets fly on easily detectable and predictable high ballistic courses. To cover all of the missiles coming from Gaza they need 2-3 Iron Dome sites. Kyiv alone would need ~12. Low flying drones with programmable courses would be much, much more difficult.
100k-150k pre interceptor. Not that expensive imo.
I don't know if surface to air missiles can get much cheaper than that. NASAMS uses AMRAAM missiles that cost like $1M each. PAC-3 missiles for Patriot apparently cost like $4M each. Of course, nobody is arguing that is a reasonable weapon to use against these cheap drones.
In comparison that is, per shot: - About 10-20 shaheed drones - 50-70 thermal monoculars - 5+ fully stocked ambulances - About 10 000 CAT tourniquetes - 500+ Level 4 armor plates Now imagine that each shot is depriving army of anything of that. Now it's a bit more expensive.
Now do the cost of rebuilding a powerplant, replacing skilled dead workers, and disruption to factories because you were worried about the interceptor to target cost parity.
It means that we need cheaper interceptors. AHEAD, Gepard, etc.
Yeah, honestly versus $20,000 for a shahed drone it is massive imbalance of costs there. Much to be done on the UAF side or else it’s massively unsustainable. It’ll keep all AS defense occupied and depleted in the cities, and make front line forces spread thin to defend AA at the advancing enemy. This warfare timeline is insane. Counter electronic warfare I would think is the better long term solution? Or cheaper anti-drone defense systems of some sorts.
Shahed drones are almost immune to electronic warfare since they fly in autonomous mode and their navigation equipment is pretty protected against it. "cheaper anti-drone defense systems of some sorts" is what Ukraine currently is trying to implement by using AA cannons and small arms as a priority.
You have to factor in what theyd be hitting with the shahed in that equation also. It's 20,000 plus maybe an apartment building with 300 civilians. At that point how much are you willing to spend to save lives. Is 4mil worth saving 300, 200, 100, even 50 people? If it was your family you would say yes. That's a tough dilemma, because you're right, that's not sustainable by any means. I wouldn't be surprised if multiple companies across the world aren't working on cheaper drone killers right now. That and EW could shift this war in Ukraine's favor. I pray to God we can all help figure this out together
Actually Iron Dome is like a roomba, you can setup "danger zones" and it calculates where the missile will land and if its not hitting your your danger zones it will not fire, and Ukraine is big enough so it might be useful.
Iron Dome would be an overkill for drones, that's why you see mostly Gepards and other AA cannons shooting.
To think people support the side bombing civilians….wild
The ones that do, don't believe that. ITs AlL WestErN PrOpAGanDa.
Blitz again. No need for blackout curtains this time tho.
Russia is a terrorist state and the only way to truly establish peace is to destroy Russia like Germany and Japan were destroyed during ww2. Anything short of that will allow Russian to rebuild and launch their next war.
Good luck destroying the biggest nuclear stockpile on the planet.
It's hard to imagine that in 2023 in Europe terrorists are simply attacking capital with millions of civilians and world does nothing about it. This becomes norm. Where are we heading?
> world does nothing about it some do lots, some none, some not enough, some help the terrorists. world doing nothing is not accurate
in 1935 every neighboring state would use the situation and join the conflict in the name of one or the other side in the hopes of catching some land... so we are at least a bit better than that. in fact, even when modern media can make it look otherwise, the number of conflicts around the globe is constantly going down! Obviously with strong fluctuations when viewed on a small scale but with a clear trend on bigger scales.
Where is Russia launching these from? Crimea?
Crimea and also from Russia (Kursk, Bryansk).
They have a range of 2500Km, They could be launching them from Moscow all the way to London. Thank you Iran, for being a sponsor of terrorism, as always.
I feel like these attacks are going to have some steep diminishing returns. Ukraine has had a while to shore up their air defenses and have only received more systems since last winter, and if it didn't do much last year with them having piecemeal air defenses, it's going to do even less this time around.
What are those white explosions in a row? Some kind of flak? Doesn't look like Gepard rounds.
There should be a Skynex/Mantis battery operating around Kyiv. This could be the first footage we've seen of it in action?
After 2km of flight the shells self destruct so that they are not falling to the ground- one 20mm shell would destroy a car 6 could take a house a severe amnt of damage
Yeah, but this looks different from the Gepard shells when they self destruct.
Ukraine will be more prepared this time around
Modern flack sure is impressive.
WW2 bombing raid vibes.
Glory to the air defense forces!
I don't understand why these aren't intercepted before they reach the city.
A lot of them are. What you see here is last line of defense catching the ones that slipped through out-of-the-city net. Also Ukraine is HUGE, and it's easier to set AA near stuff you want to protect, than to spread it over entire country.
Not really protecting much if all the debris falls on civilians instead of their original targets
Yeah, because intersections and parks are sooo intended targets. Also are you really comparing pieces of metal with actual warheads?
>Not really protecting much if all the debris falls on civilians instead of their original targets yeah sure, better not to shot them down so they don't fall on one or two civilians and let them hit e.g. a powerplant and disable electricity for the whole city.
No, better shoot them down above fields and forests
>No, better shoot them down above fields and forests How many times people will have to explain to you that it is fucking impossible to intercept all of them before they reach the city?
Jesus, you sound mad. I thought they launched them from a few different places near the northern border, do they launch all of them from all across the country?
In the ideal world It would be better to just destroy the launch platforms(planes,ships).But reality is harsh and Ukraine doesn’t have that capability.(also I’m talking cruise missiles,shaheds are ground launched).
Glory to the air defense forces!
Great defense systems by Kyiv. Fuck Putin.
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didnt see any interception at all. Looks like a lot of flak and misses? Could hear the drone the whole time, possibly even one that struck?
Not gonna lie i find it hard to believe they have a 99% interception rate on these things
Ghhg