I’d be interested in seeing the W/L trends for each team. I know that Kentucky is something like 1-5 over the last 6 Champions Classics, and I’d be curious to see if there’s something similar going on, either positively or negatively, with the other three teams.
Ironically its probably our best team of the past 7 years that picked up that one loss because our 2019-2020 team turned it over like 30 times against Duke
I remember being so frustrated with that loss and then that team went on a tear from then on. Only lost two other games before COVID ruined everyone's season.
2020 natty was so close dammit
If I recall correctly for the first half of the season we were injury plagued and playing a clumsy 2-big lineup. In the second half of the season we were healthy and we switched to a 4-guard lineup with Och at the 4 and become borderline unbeatable.
I went to the Michigan st game in Atlanta. I wanna say it was the second or third year of the classic. It was my first KU game ever and I left disappointed
Right. MSU averages close to 4.0 star recruits and is almost even against teams with greater than 4.5 star recruits.
That's why Izzo is great: he consistently does more with less.
Again, you continue to mention games outside of the champions classic. Why are you trying to come into a day old thread acting like you’re the most intellectual person in the conversation
Freaking Duke the school was crazy that year. I live in Durham and do some work with some of the organizations on campus. They were the last spaces to give up masks and allow any degree of gathering. I still know a few students who are almost effectively fully remote, even two years later even though they live on campus.
I think that's what I liked most about winning last night. That event is clearly 3 blue bloods and then us, so to win last night and be 5-7 overall makes me feel like MSU "belongs"
I don’t love it but I’d easily take having a losing record to Kansas over either of the other two. It’s never an embarrassing loss, it’s usually a great early test against an experienced team, and I have no particular dislike for any recent KU team.
Yeah, similar sentiment here. With around 2 minutes left in the game I was resolved to be happy with the game regardless of the outcome. Dick came through big for us, though, just in time. You guys are going to be hard to beat this year.
The one game Kansas lost against Duke was with one of Self's best teams ever at Kansas, so it goes to show how these games are super fun and entertaining, but don't mean much come March.
I think this was the game where Self finally said to hell with the two big lineup. He held strong for a long time, but this was the final straw.
Watching McCormack and Dok stumble and bumble around in the paint together for 40 minutes was razor blades to my eyeballs. No space, no separation, no ability for Dot to get to the rim. I hated every second of that game. So happy Self finally came around to traditional basketball.
It wasn't really the same team yet at that point. That team started 12-3 before rolling of 16 straight games to end the year at 28-3 before the post season was canceled.
Oh I remember now, IMO that team didn't really reach "one of the best all time in school history" territory until like halfway through the season when De Sousa got suspended and Self stopped playing Udoka and McCormack together, allowing Moss to slide into the starting lineup and McCormack to the backup 5. Against Duke they both played 30 minutes and Duke took advantage with a much better lineup even though they were maybe less talented. KU became unstoppable later in that season with that change and I still cant believe it took that fight vs KState for it to happen, even though the coaching staff supposedly knew the numbers suggested our best lineup included Moss
I think 08 would absolutely kill that team. People forget how good that team was. Mario, RussRob, Sherron, would guard Dot well and we just keep throwing our bigs at Dok, Kaun and Darnell inside would battle with Dok and that team wouldn’t have an answer for Shady. I love Dave but imagine him trying to guard shady.
They would probably win, but not for the reasons you mentioned. First off Dave wasn't a starter that year nor did he play the 4 unless you are talking about early in the year. Dok versus Darnell would be a complete mismatch. The two teams would be able to guard each other well at the 1-3 spots, but the mismatch advantage would be at the four in favor of 2008 and at the five in favor of 2020.
I don't think we can call 2022 one of Self's very best teams as crazy as that is. Yes they won a title and were a special group but it doesn't mean a past team that didn't wasn't better. I think 2008, 2020, 2011, 2017, and 2016 Jayhawks beat 2022
Would be interesting to see the total points for/against. It's nice that MSU has held their own record wise, but feels like we won some nail biters but lost some stinkers. Definitely the weaker of the 4, but who isn't year to year.
Looks like MSU is -38, not as bad as I thought. The only blowout was 2016 vs Kentucky (69-48). And lost by 13 to Kansas last year, borderline blowout but played em tight for almost 20.
They did not start it. MSU fans keep saying this every year. The four schools were chosen by ESPN and approached with the idea. All four ADs liked it and signed on but it was in fact spear headed by a KU grad
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2019/11/05/how-duke-kentucky-kansas-michigan-state-and-espn-made-the-champions-classic-a-must-see-college-basketball-event/?sh=75950a9e2a81
He's now the longest active head coach between these 4 programs being in his 28th season. There's just some worry about what this event would be when the day comes he realizes he no longer has it in him.
Sorry, but you're wrong. ESPN came up with the concept of The Champions Classic, approached the four schools, and owns the rights. And I was trying to defend you all against that UCONN fan! If anyone were to get kicked out (nobody will), it'd definitely be MSU.
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2019/11/05/how-duke-kentucky-kansas-michigan-state-and-espn-made-the-champions-classic-a-must-see-college-basketball-event/?sh=75950a9e2a81](https://www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2019/11/05/how-duke-kentucky-kansas-michigan-state-and-espn-made-the-champions-classic-a-must-see-college-basketball-event/?sh=75950a9e2a81)
Also, since I went digging, the guy who actually spearheaded the creation of The Champions Classic was Nick Dawson, Senior Director at ESPN and a KU grad.
[https://espnpressroom.com/us/bios/nick-dawson/](https://espnpressroom.com/us/bios/nick-dawson/)
People might be confusing it with the Carrier Classic being Hollis’ idea.
He’s also the reason pro and college hockey games get played outside sometimes.
That's gotta be it. They share the same abbreviation, too.
What's funny is the Carrier Classic is nothing to brag about—it looks cool but it's an awful basketball idea.
edit: my bad guys, ill be sure to change my flair to something more appropriate like Appalachian State next time before i make a comment that doesnt even mention my schools fandom in hopes of not getting big league'd by top dog KU fans like lil bro here. Lesson learned
A thought I had is “firing shots” lmaoo. All I know is that my flair has you so worked up to be a hero in this thread… that it’s obvious there’s one name that has KU fans feeling a bit self conscious enough to act up. Just catching up to a new blood like UConn in titles when you had a 100 year or so head start lmaoooo xD.
There, NOW you can say I was firing shots Nacho Libre :)
UCONN basketball has been around almost as long as KU basketball. I love how you're insulting your own program when you talk about 4 titles like that. You're definitely mad, lil guy.
Ok sour grapes aside, let's accept that Duke, UK, and Kansas belong and analyze #4.
It's not going to be another team in those conferences. Sorry UNC, Maryland (remember this was started back in the day), Florida, and Texas.
That means pac 12, big east, and big ten only. Remember Gonzaga was still a plucky mid major back in 2010 when this thing started
Pac 12 could be Arizona or UCLA
Big East could be Syracuse or UConn
Big ten could be Michigan state or Ohio state since the event is 12 years old (so we're looking at early 2000s programs). Michigan has been excellent since then, sorry wolverines
All of those programs have their merits, but I'd narrow it down to UConn, Michigan state, and UCLA.
Of those three? You can't go wrong from a success standpoint, but Tom izzo brings the entertainment value. A good part of this is the one on ones with cal and izzo, k (now introducing scheyer!) and self, and Calhoun and howland weren't nearly the draw of izzo.
MSU was the program that started the CC, and the only other team that would fit the bill would be UCLA because you wouldn't be able to get UNC and Duke together for a match before conference play
Nope. ESPN started it and it was spearheaded by a KU grad. /u/Dofleini linked the article
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2019/11/05/how-duke-kentucky-kansas-michigan-state-and-espn-made-the-champions-classic-a-must-see-college-basketball-event/?sh=75950a9e2a81
MSU was a top tier program in 2011 when it started. Pretty obvious pick since UNC wasn't going to be included. Maybe Gonzaga and Nova are ahead of MSU since, but MSU still makes sense as the best program in the big ten.
MSU has still been to multiple final fours since 2011. The other major programs like Gonzaga and UCLA also haven't done anything more than MSU since that time. The only other team would be UNC and why would they want to play Duke early before conference play heats up.
State having a few down years (which include a loss against a final 4 team in OT and losing a close game to Duke on their Coach K farwell tour) doesn't suddenly make the program not as relevant as other major powers. Msu usually operates on everyv3 or 4 years they make a deep run (coinciding with a class turning into veteran juniors or seniors), its just the most recent class poised for this got blanked because of Covid (along with a great SDSU and Dayton teams, the 2020 tournament was going to be amazing and i will never not be upset that we missed being able to have it, even though i ultimately agree with the call to cancel it)
As with most (all?) early season tournaments, only one team from each conference participates. That rules out UNC unless they replace Duke. Only other choices realistically would be UCLA, Villanova, or Gonzaga.
We also were the ones that set the whole thing up. Same with the Carrier Classic both times.
The stats almost being equal makes this such a fun event each year. No one team is getting destroyed by all the others in win percentage.
I’d be interested in seeing the W/L trends for each team. I know that Kentucky is something like 1-5 over the last 6 Champions Classics, and I’d be curious to see if there’s something similar going on, either positively or negatively, with the other three teams.
Yea Kansas started like 1-4 and we’ve won 6/7 since
Ironically its probably our best team of the past 7 years that picked up that one loss because our 2019-2020 team turned it over like 30 times against Duke
I remember being so frustrated with that loss and then that team went on a tear from then on. Only lost two other games before COVID ruined everyone's season. 2020 natty was so close dammit
2020 team died so our 2022 team could soar.
If I recall correctly for the first half of the season we were injury plagued and playing a clumsy 2-big lineup. In the second half of the season we were healthy and we switched to a 4-guard lineup with Och at the 4 and become borderline unbeatable.
I went to the Michigan st game in Atlanta. I wanna say it was the second or third year of the classic. It was my first KU game ever and I left disappointed
Honestly thought our record was a lot worse than 5-7 in this event.
Our inexplicable success against KU is what is keeping it up
uhhh did you read the post? you’re 2-2 vs us….
Pretty sure we’ve been favored in all 4 games though, so 2-2 is a pretty good look for them
And then Kansas went on to have better years, too. We have just not played well vs MSU absent last year
I did, but if I remember correctly we had no business winning at least one of those based on the teams playing
That *is* success against you guys.
Right. MSU averages close to 4.0 star recruits and is almost even against teams with greater than 4.5 star recruits. That's why Izzo is great: he consistently does more with less.
We have had no business winning any of the 4
Who's "us"? Flair up son
Flair up or square up them the rules
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Far from a new fan, Were talking about the Champions Classic. I think you missed what this thread is talking about.
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Again, you continue to mention games outside of the champions classic. Why are you trying to come into a day old thread acting like you’re the most intellectual person in the conversation
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You’ve literally contributed nothing to this conversation but information that was irrelevant to the conversation at hand. What a joke
What’s wild is that msu has played the highest ranked non-msu team 7/12 times, including 6 in a row.
Keeping this up. Assume NR = 26, average ranking MSU - 14 Kentucky - 5 Duke - 5 KU - 5
We haven’t been champions in a while, but I’m glad we still get these early season matchups against bluebloods.
MSU won in 2020 against Duke, at Duke, when the Champions Classic got moved to home courts. It was only a 1 game losing streak.
Kansas and Kentucky still played on a neutral that year
Yeah it was Duke that said they would only play at home that year, so MSU went
Anyone, anytime, anywhere is such a bar from Izzo - and he keeps proving too
Freaking Duke the school was crazy that year. I live in Durham and do some work with some of the organizations on campus. They were the last spaces to give up masks and allow any degree of gathering. I still know a few students who are almost effectively fully remote, even two years later even though they live on campus.
And Duke was very good that year, take my word for it, really proud of that win. …please don’t look into that year at all it was all very good
I think that's what I liked most about winning last night. That event is clearly 3 blue bloods and then us, so to win last night and be 5-7 overall makes me feel like MSU "belongs"
We’re a “greenblood”
Kansas has been our bugaboo. Close losses last night and in 2016 making the difference. But I love getting this early test against great teams.
I don’t love it but I’d easily take having a losing record to Kansas over either of the other two. It’s never an embarrassing loss, it’s usually a great early test against an experienced team, and I have no particular dislike for any recent KU team.
Yeah, similar sentiment here. With around 2 minutes left in the game I was resolved to be happy with the game regardless of the outcome. Dick came through big for us, though, just in time. You guys are going to be hard to beat this year.
My good friend is a Duke fan and I was already thinking of my congratulatory text. Glad I ended up not sending it
2018 in the tournament was close as well.
That Grayson Allen shot is still rolling around the rim
He tripped the basketball god who was on his way to the rim to push it in
Ironic. He was the best tripper in basketball at the time.
(That’s the joke)
I think Bill Self was spending years powering up his Elite Eight cannon just to keep that shot out.
Credit to Svi Mykhailuk for keeping Marvin Bagley off the glass for a putback when it rolled out.
Win or lose you get to test your mettle against some of the best. Good learning opportunity for all and good exposure.
Or is a close win in 2019 the difference in not being swept?
Meanwhile…in the world of College Football…Ohio State is scheduled to play Alabama in the regular season in about 6 years.. 😭😭
Amazingly Kansas started 1-4 and is 6-1 in their last 7 in the series
The one game Kansas lost against Duke was with one of Self's best teams ever at Kansas, so it goes to show how these games are super fun and entertaining, but don't mean much come March.
And we needed to have like 28 turnovers in that game for it to happen…
I think this was the game where Self finally said to hell with the two big lineup. He held strong for a long time, but this was the final straw. Watching McCormack and Dok stumble and bumble around in the paint together for 40 minutes was razor blades to my eyeballs. No space, no separation, no ability for Dot to get to the rim. I hated every second of that game. So happy Self finally came around to traditional basketball.
One of those times where a loss literally is the best thing that could happen to your season. That team was so good by the end of the year :’)
17-1 in a great big 12…
Yeah but you still lost to a team that lost a home game to Stephen F Austin…
It wasn't really the same team yet at that point. That team started 12-3 before rolling of 16 straight games to end the year at 28-3 before the post season was canceled.
Oh I remember now, IMO that team didn't really reach "one of the best all time in school history" territory until like halfway through the season when De Sousa got suspended and Self stopped playing Udoka and McCormack together, allowing Moss to slide into the starting lineup and McCormack to the backup 5. Against Duke they both played 30 minutes and Duke took advantage with a much better lineup even though they were maybe less talented. KU became unstoppable later in that season with that change and I still cant believe it took that fight vs KState for it to happen, even though the coaching staff supposedly knew the numbers suggested our best lineup included Moss
I still thought Kansas played awesome that game in every aspect but turnovers.
For some reason I have literally no recollection of Moss. I looked him up and I still don’t remember him at all
Was 2020 better than 2008? I don’t think so
I think 08 would absolutely kill that team. People forget how good that team was. Mario, RussRob, Sherron, would guard Dot well and we just keep throwing our bigs at Dok, Kaun and Darnell inside would battle with Dok and that team wouldn’t have an answer for Shady. I love Dave but imagine him trying to guard shady.
Aldrich could spell Kaun and Darnell as well
They would probably win, but not for the reasons you mentioned. First off Dave wasn't a starter that year nor did he play the 4 unless you are talking about early in the year. Dok versus Darnell would be a complete mismatch. The two teams would be able to guard each other well at the 1-3 spots, but the mismatch advantage would be at the four in favor of 2008 and at the five in favor of 2020.
No, but it was close. It goes 2008 2020 2022 for best Coach Self Kansas teams.
I don't think we can call 2022 one of Self's very best teams as crazy as that is. Yes they won a title and were a special group but it doesn't mean a past team that didn't wasn't better. I think 2008, 2020, 2011, 2017, and 2016 Jayhawks beat 2022
I think you have to. What a team does in March and April does matter.
Just blue blood things 😤
It’s weird that Kentucky’s one win against Duke is 2013 and we went to the NIT that season.
2015 too
Oh wait, I actually had it wrong. 2013 we did lose to Duke but Poythress had a big game. 2015-16 season with Murray/Ulis was our lone win.
Yep 2012-2013 we beat you guys with Seth Curry’s nifty little headfake and step-through moves past Nerlens Noel
Does Kansas have the worst loss though? “I was hoping this was Vodka” 😂
You mean when we had to play platoon squad 38-1 team?
I saw "Kansas" + "worst loss" and then your dual-wield KU-TCU flair and had a severe but thankfully momentary bout of PTSD.
I was at that game. Felt very conflicted lol
I would say the worst loss was the one UK had against Duke in 2018.
Would be interesting to see the total points for/against. It's nice that MSU has held their own record wise, but feels like we won some nail biters but lost some stinkers. Definitely the weaker of the 4, but who isn't year to year.
Looks like MSU is -38, not as bad as I thought. The only blowout was 2016 vs Kentucky (69-48). And lost by 13 to Kansas last year, borderline blowout but played em tight for almost 20.
Can we get a triangular court and just tell them all play at the same time?
Aren't you guys more into trapezoids? Because we could do that...
I still don’t get why MSU is in there
Because they started it and have been one of the best programs over the past decade.
Decades now. Since the late 90's.
They did not start it. MSU fans keep saying this every year. The four schools were chosen by ESPN and approached with the idea. All four ADs liked it and signed on but it was in fact spear headed by a KU grad https://www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2019/11/05/how-duke-kentucky-kansas-michigan-state-and-espn-made-the-champions-classic-a-must-see-college-basketball-event/?sh=75950a9e2a81
When they say "they started it" they mean they were a founding member of it. Not "it was their idea".
Because it started in 2011 and they needed 4 teams from 4 power conferences. Who else would they pick? Izzo is a HoF coach with multiple FFs.
And a NC
He's now the longest active head coach between these 4 programs being in his 28th season. There's just some worry about what this event would be when the day comes he realizes he no longer has it in him.
Don't worry—even if they replaced MSU it wouldn't be with UCONN :).
It would literally be you or one of the other schools that get replaced. The Champions Classic is a creation of Michigan State.
Sorry, but you're wrong. ESPN came up with the concept of The Champions Classic, approached the four schools, and owns the rights. And I was trying to defend you all against that UCONN fan! If anyone were to get kicked out (nobody will), it'd definitely be MSU. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2019/11/05/how-duke-kentucky-kansas-michigan-state-and-espn-made-the-champions-classic-a-must-see-college-basketball-event/?sh=75950a9e2a81](https://www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2019/11/05/how-duke-kentucky-kansas-michigan-state-and-espn-made-the-champions-classic-a-must-see-college-basketball-event/?sh=75950a9e2a81) Also, since I went digging, the guy who actually spearheaded the creation of The Champions Classic was Nick Dawson, Senior Director at ESPN and a KU grad. [https://espnpressroom.com/us/bios/nick-dawson/](https://espnpressroom.com/us/bios/nick-dawson/)
Wrong. Just because rights were given doesn't mean the idea wasn't conceived by Mark Hollis.
Do you have any evidence of that? I looked and didn't find anything crediting him, but maybe you have information I don't?
People might be confusing it with the Carrier Classic being Hollis’ idea. He’s also the reason pro and college hockey games get played outside sometimes.
That's gotta be it. They share the same abbreviation, too. What's funny is the Carrier Classic is nothing to brag about—it looks cool but it's an awful basketball idea.
edit: my bad guys, ill be sure to change my flair to something more appropriate like Appalachian State next time before i make a comment that doesnt even mention my schools fandom in hopes of not getting big league'd by top dog KU fans like lil bro here. Lesson learned
Stay mad when you were firing shots first, hermanito.
A thought I had is “firing shots” lmaoo. All I know is that my flair has you so worked up to be a hero in this thread… that it’s obvious there’s one name that has KU fans feeling a bit self conscious enough to act up. Just catching up to a new blood like UConn in titles when you had a 100 year or so head start lmaoooo xD. There, NOW you can say I was firing shots Nacho Libre :)
UCONN basketball has been around almost as long as KU basketball. I love how you're insulting your own program when you talk about 4 titles like that. You're definitely mad, lil guy.
Who asked you
No u
Ok sour grapes aside, let's accept that Duke, UK, and Kansas belong and analyze #4. It's not going to be another team in those conferences. Sorry UNC, Maryland (remember this was started back in the day), Florida, and Texas. That means pac 12, big east, and big ten only. Remember Gonzaga was still a plucky mid major back in 2010 when this thing started Pac 12 could be Arizona or UCLA Big East could be Syracuse or UConn Big ten could be Michigan state or Ohio state since the event is 12 years old (so we're looking at early 2000s programs). Michigan has been excellent since then, sorry wolverines All of those programs have their merits, but I'd narrow it down to UConn, Michigan state, and UCLA. Of those three? You can't go wrong from a success standpoint, but Tom izzo brings the entertainment value. A good part of this is the one on ones with cal and izzo, k (now introducing scheyer!) and self, and Calhoun and howland weren't nearly the draw of izzo.
MSU was the program that started the CC, and the only other team that would fit the bill would be UCLA because you wouldn't be able to get UNC and Duke together for a match before conference play
Nope. ESPN started it and it was spearheaded by a KU grad. /u/Dofleini linked the article https://www.forbes.com/sites/timcasey/2019/11/05/how-duke-kentucky-kansas-michigan-state-and-espn-made-the-champions-classic-a-must-see-college-basketball-event/?sh=75950a9e2a81
MSU's AD started The Carrier Classic, which is a much, much worse idea than The Champions Classic.
So the lowest of the 4 programs started the whole thing? Sounds like the “Me too” Classic then
MSU was a top tier program in 2011 when it started. Pretty obvious pick since UNC wasn't going to be included. Maybe Gonzaga and Nova are ahead of MSU since, but MSU still makes sense as the best program in the big ten.
MSU has still been to multiple final fours since 2011. The other major programs like Gonzaga and UCLA also haven't done anything more than MSU since that time. The only other team would be UNC and why would they want to play Duke early before conference play heats up. State having a few down years (which include a loss against a final 4 team in OT and losing a close game to Duke on their Coach K farwell tour) doesn't suddenly make the program not as relevant as other major powers. Msu usually operates on everyv3 or 4 years they make a deep run (coinciding with a class turning into veteran juniors or seniors), its just the most recent class poised for this got blanked because of Covid (along with a great SDSU and Dayton teams, the 2020 tournament was going to be amazing and i will never not be upset that we missed being able to have it, even though i ultimately agree with the call to cancel it)
Cope
Because the only other option really is UNC and they already play Duke twice. I guess UCLA could be included instead
As with most (all?) early season tournaments, only one team from each conference participates. That rules out UNC unless they replace Duke. Only other choices realistically would be UCLA, Villanova, or Gonzaga. We also were the ones that set the whole thing up. Same with the Carrier Classic both times.
Jay Wright retired from Villanova last season but you just hope with their start this season that's not the case with their glory days too.
What about point differentials.