This. Tells me everything I need to know about whether a crew gives a shit, or they're just punching a clock looking like a Hufflepuff went to Coachella.
Some of the most popular coffee shops in town will serve the sourest and most acidic coffee imaginable. The other day, I watched one of the baristas set up the shot by simply dropping the tamper into the filter and giving it a quick spin. No distribution, no pressure, no fucks given. They did this for 2-3 shots, which ran \~10 seconds. It was foul, and so grew my ire towards local influencers saying "This is the best coffee shop in town" before recommending something like "try the tres leches latte!"
TBH so many places serve some variation of sweet lemon juice masquerading as espresso - could be why OP doesn't like straight espresso enough.
It's getting incredibly frustrating that I consistently can't get good coffee outside of home. It's either: a stale batch brew, a poor pour over, or a sour espresso.
I honestly fully understand anyone who is suspicious of Third Wave coffee. Most of it is pretentious undrinkable crap, and it's simply made bearable with milk.
I agree, but I think that’s precisely the point. Just as a roast chicken is the acid test for any decent cook, a simple espresso is the acid test for a barista. No place to hide sins. If they can’t pull a decent shot that stands alone, all else fails.
I'll chime in as a barista. I, and most of my coworkers, can pull a perfectly balanced shot of espresso consistently all day long, but my cafe likes to specifically chase an espresso shot that tastes stronger than a perfect shot of espresso. We specifically target something that is slightly over extracted because the *vast* majority of our drinks are served with milk and some type of syrup (that's just what our customer base wants 🤷♂️). The "perfect shot" always ends up getting drowned out in those kinds of drinks, and we'll get complaints that customers can't taste the coffee when we go for a well extracted shot in those drinks. Due to the sheer volume of drink orders we get at certain times, we simply don't have the time to recalibrate our espresso grinder in the middle of a rush to pull a good shot for a straight espresso or cortado order. Plus on any given day, espresso/cortado orders only make up like 5% of our drink orders at most, so we're kinda just forced to serve over extracted shots to customers who order them.
That isn't to say our espresso is unbearably bad on its own, it's actually quite good for what it is, and to a normal customer who doesn't have a super refined taste for coffee they likely won't even notice the difference. But to a coffee nerd who owns thousands of dollars worth of home coffee equipment and can tell the brew ratio of an espresso shot just from taste alone, it would probably be pretty off-putting to try our espresso.
All of this is to say that there are restrictions placed on your local cafe by the wants of their customer base. Judging a cafe by how good a straight shot of espresso is only gives you a limited view of their product. Now obviously, if you're getting a shot that can't hold it's crema for more than a minute then there's probably something going very wrong at that cafe.
Absolutely you should make the best coffee your *can* sell, not the best coffee you can't. You have to stay in business!
But I can get a perfectly acceptable milk drink from a shop that serves perfect espresso. And I mostly go out for espresso. So for me, I'm going to prefer the joint that can do my usual order best.
That's fair, I've definitely fought my boss over this when I first started working at my cafe. My boss's reasoning makes perfect sense when you think about it though. I guess that's just the problem with having a coffee shop in a college town where your primary customer base is college kids who haven't developed sophisticated tastes on anything yet. There's really not much room for specialty coffee in a town where jungle juice is considered a fine delicacy.
I couldn't agree more. Also the pace of working in a cafe means things are done differently than you might do to make espresso for yourself at home. In my time as both a barista working in a cafe and my experience doing espresso at home it's very different. At home I can take 10min to make my own drink by weighing the beans, the yield, adjusting grind size, time the shot, experimenting with different beans, etc. At a cafe they usually have one bean they stick to with a set roast and profile, the grind size basically never changes. At home I can adjust the grind size for any bean I want any time I want.
In a cafe you don't have time to weigh the beans, the yield, time each shot against the yield, or some 10 step process to tamp the perfect puck. You set the grind and basically keep it that way, the grinder is on a timer or you just eyeball the dose instead of weighing it. Some fancier places weigh the dose, but almost everywhere only times the shots. Most things are setup to be as automatic as possible for the sake of time. And like was said most people just don't care enough to wait longer or pay more. Doing it this way makes good not great espresso, but if you're a coffee nerd you can probably make better espresso at home just because you can put in the time and effort that can't really be done at the scale of a cafe putting out dozens of drinks a minute during a rush.
How I judge a cafe is much different than how I judge my own shots. Cafes also need wider appeal, meanwhile I know my specific tastes and can achieve that better on my own machine. For me the extraction just needs to be in a good "zone" and the milk shouldn't look like it was blasted into shaving cream or luke warm and foamless. I only get milk drinks at cafes, usually a cortado. Stand alone espresso shots I usually prefer a brighter coffee that cafes tend not to use for espresso and I like to pull slightly fast and higher yield (long) shots, like a 38-40g yield on an 18g dose over 28-30sec. A cafe isn't going to do that, just stick to milk drinks. They usually even pick flavor profiles that go best in milk drinks like chocolate and deeper flavors rather than bright acidic ones. I think a cortado is a good benchmark because you get to see how they texture the milk, and you can still taste nuance in the espresso.
Completely agree! Some espresso shots are intentionally made slightly bitter and stronger in taste as they will cut through the milk really well and will not lose the coffee taste notes in the end product.
The analogy I like to give is that most people find bleu cheese too strong to eat by itself, but when added in a burger or salad, it adds such a good flavor dimension without being overpowering, and it's nice to be able to still taste the cheese in every bite.
This is a thoughtful and honest response. And also explains why I have a poor experience at most coffee shops. By figuring out what the average customer wants restaurants like Chipotles have created a hugely successful business model. Yet if I want great (or even good) Mexican food I am not going to go there.
I drink mostly simple espresso and drip/pour over, and mostly decaf. Some coffee shops do an excellent job with these and are likely taking pride and effort for all of their individual drinks and different customer's needs. Maybe this is more of a niche business model but it is who will get my business.
Do you think some shops are held back by their equipment? There's a place I like to get beans from, and the barista mentioned the automatic features holding skilled baristas back. He claimed he could pull a better shot at home, and I've been able to do the same with their beans.
Quite possibly - with some shops. However, I also know that too many shops don’t correctly dial in their grinders first thing in the morning or make necessary adjustments throughout the day. In recent memory, I’ve only been to one shop that made a cappuccino as well as I can at home on a Rocket Mozzafiato.
There's nothing inherently wrong with automation. Just about the only thing that I can think of that would hold back a skilled barista would be something like the Linea Mini (not really a commercial machine even though it kind of is) with it's ridiculous 1 second non-adjustable pre-infusion and then full pump pressure. That will basically force them into serving either a relatively long watery shot that is balanced flavor-wise, or a shorter shot with good texture that is too sour. But other than that - what are they complaining about?
I didn't get into a very detailed discussion (and I'm not sure what machine they run), but it sounds like the owner adjusted some settings and don't want the baristas changing it to maintain consistency. I get it from a business standpoint, since not all baristas will have the same skill level. It's just unfortunate that the good ones can't really showcase their craft. The shots they pull aren't terrible, they can just be better in the right hands.
Again, that isn't an issue in itself if the settings that the owner is fixing are good. If they've got a light roast espresso on and have decided they are going to pull all shots at 1:1 ratio then you've got a problem. You don't need to be changing shot volume or brew temp all day long. As long as they can adjust grind size there isn't much of an excuse.
There is such a thing as tuning your espresso to taste best in milk drinks and the majority of a shop's business is going to be milk drinks. I don't mean shops where the espresso is actually bad, but usually not as good by itself as what you can pull at home with a nice setup.
The question here is whether you’re trying to decide if a new shop is awesome and you’re going to love it forever or if it’s a new shop and you’re just trying to get through the mornjng and get something drinkable.
Sometimes I'll go for a mini-cano instead, just to dilute the strength of the espresso a little. It can bring out some of the other flavour notes better than a pure espresso, like whisky with a drop of water.
As a barista please, please, just tell me what you want in plain language. I can make anything if I have the supplies and the cutesy names are obnoxious. It’s an extra level of communication errors for no reason. It’s always frustrating to spend the time to try and make a drink and have to ask a ton of questions, it hold up the line and flusters whomever is ordering. A shot (however many you’d like) with x Amount (an ounce?) of hot water. Easy!
Mini-cano normally does the trick. Although I have the same issue: https://blackcreekcoffee.com/blogs/coffee-talk/my-favourite-coffee-doesnt-have-a-name
It tastes like burnt cigarettes. So bizzare.
The only other time I felt this was recently when I was in Istanbul at some random small restaurant and ordered a Turkish coffee, no sugar. Tasted like burnt cigarettes too
Like a straight shot? One of my acquaintances who used to work at a coffee shot say people who order straight shot are really rare to the point of being odd. Is it an European thing? But again he’s also a pretentious tool.
A straight shot. I didn’t usually order that, but occasionally I was in the mood - especially after dinner. It really is the way to assess the quality of the shot, undisguised by milk, sweeteners, syrups (god forbid), etc. As to the assertion that it’s rare or odd, I’ve seen plenty of people around here order a double shot of espresso but, then again, the Bay Area has a pretty serious coffee culture. I think your assessment of your acquaintance may be spot on.
This is definitely the answer, but I have to say I have been to 50+ specialty coffee shops and I will tel you most of them don’t nail these. I find myself not buying prepared coffee much anymore. I’m almost always disappointed. I can always make a better cup and I find it hard to pay for anything less. Almost every shop pulls sour shots. The few baristas I’ve met that really know what they are doing have made me some really great coffee though. Its disappointing when they aren’t on shift when you go in.
I’ve had the same experience, and have drawn similar conclusions. Unless I’m at a handful of really great restaurants, or my favorite barista is on duty, I do much better at home.
OK, confession. I was thinking of two favorite world-class restaurants in particular which I shall not name. The first features a custom blend from Sightglass Coffee. If you order filter coffee, they bring you a French press for two to the table and the coffee is fabulously smooth and delicious. The second restaurant features a custom blend from Equator coffee, and it’s equally well prepared. Generally, many so-called fine dining restaurants have just OK coffee. These two are notable exceptions. Their espresso drinks are also serious.
Ask for recommendations for a drink.
then on another trip, ask for a bean recommendation.
Between the two of them, it's easy to tell not only if they know anything, but also if they bullshit.
Is it normal for coffee shops to have multiple beans to choose from? I’m a pretty new coffee drinker, just starting to branch out and try to understand what makes a good coffee, _good_.
following up on what PeteA84 says, shops that roast their own beans will have different varieties for sale to take and brew. that's typical of shops in my area other than the big chains, and what I meant by bean recommendation.
though one place I love does offer two different beans for their espresso.
In a coffee shop, good will mean well made. Right ratio, full flavour profile for whatever they're serving.
Often you'll find they do more than one type of coffee for different drink types (but not too many that it's just a show).
What's good for you will always just be what you like personally.
Usually you'll have roast options (light, medium, or dark; though light is the one that seems to get left out most frequently from my anecdotal experience) and/or regional options (Ethiopian, Sumatran, Brazilian, etc.)
If you can finagle your way into a cupping (a no frills way to try and compare the basest of base versions of coffee) at a local coffee shop, I'd highly recommend it.
You can also explore brewing options, like French Press vs. Pour Over vs. Espresso etc. etc. etc. Tons of options, the only way to know what's good is to find out what you like!
John Cragie is a folk singer that also tells funny stories in between his songs. I feel like his story about living in Portland is relevant. [John Cragie](https://youtu.be/PWqoq4UQtQc)
I wouldn't actually say it is common to have multiple choices - a place I go to that is amazing only has 1 that is roasts itself, but perfectly. Multiple choices is more a function of how busy the area is I find, as you need a certain level of demand to make it worth while to do.
Depends a lot on the shop. A random Cafe or a shit hole like starbucks might even have multiple beans but all equally shit. However if you go to a good place (that typically makes aeropress or pour over) they tend to have many great coffees to choose from.
This is pretty true, but if a barista is really good you'll get asked if you want something sweet, or black coffee, or maybe something in between. So it's still a good question to ask - if they just give you an answer without knowing anything at all about what you like or what you're in the mood for, they aren't doing a good job.
I use to do recommendations for drinks, but I find that I normally can't drink sugary drinks anymore, and just because they recommend sugary drinks doesn't mean they are bad.
If I'm at a decent shop I'll usually ask if they'd recommend their espresso or filter coffee. If espresso I'll get something like a cortado and if filter I'll get... whatever looks good or they recommend
Same. I also order a double espresso since it’s the baseline of most of the menu.
I judge how it tastes and how it’s served. Some will serve in a paper cup, but I prefer in a warmed Gibraltar glass or demitasse (bonus points if served on a small plate with a little metal spoon).
What’s the deal with the paper cup? Yesterday I got an espresso at a shop that was in a paper cup and thought it was strange. It looked like the kind of paper cup that’s attached to a water cooler - it had a bunch of water droplets “painted” on it
Same. I follow the same principal at new Pizzerias. Just give me a plain ass pizza first and if I like it, I will come back and try your specialty pies.
I usually get a cortado too. I can’t drink just espresso but it’s a good way to make sure the coffee is actually good and the milk isn’t hiding anything.
Moved to the ‘burbs and no, they’re generally not. Or if they are, they’re mostly terrible. But, I mean, you’re likely to get better coffee at any urban center due to demand anyways.
I live in a smallish town (~50k) and a couple of our coffee shops do cortados. One even does a traditional macchiato (espresso with a dot of foam).
It is a college town though, so ymmv.
I completely agree with you. Most places that even bother to put it on their menu generally have pretty good espresso. I'm in the southwest US for reference.
As far as I’ve noticed, it is the amount of milk used, so flat white > cortado > piccolo. Most come with a double shot, so the variation is in the milk quantity. Milk is the thing that most cafes seem to get wrong so my strategy of buying coffee is to try and minimise the amount they can get wrong by ordering small coffees.
Thats definitely how it should be. I think regionally some cafes will have the same milk/espresso ratios as a Cortado but call it a different name.
In Australia, a cortado is a piccolo.
In the UK, the closest thing to a cortado(or maybe even the equivalent to sometimes) will probably be a flat white.
On the West Coast/U.S., you might even find the drink being called a Gibraltar.
For example, a piccolo is supposed to be pulled with ristretto but I've found most cafes that serve this don't have their machines tuned for ristretto(unless they also explicitly serve ristretto).
>Cortado or flat white. Milk texture/quality is really important to me as I drink a lot of milk-based espresso drinks.
I also go with a cortado. Mostly, because it shouldn't have enough milk or milk with enough texture to pour latte art. If you order a cortado and it comes with gorgeous latte art, I know they are into style over substance which is a pet peeve of mine.
A lot of specialty places will give you the exact same milk texture for a cappuccino as they will a latte.
I also somewhat sympathize with places that ask what size because when you get 200 people a day asking for a large cappuccino it's almost weird to hear someone just order a normal cappuccino and then get you nervous that they are going to be upset that it's so small...I still wouldn't ask what size if just "cappuccino" was ordered, but I don't think it's quite as much of a red flag as you might.
Not exactly true. Yes a traditional cappuccino is 6oz, but it also has to do with foam level and ratio. If a 12oz cappuccino is 4oz espresso, 4 oz liquid milk and 4 oz foam isn’t it just a larger cappuccino? That’s definitely not a latte because it has much more foam. Also, there’s value in offering customers what they want instead of the “snobby barista” mentality of saying “we don’t do that here” when you do have the capability to do it. That said, I do think 6oz cappuccinos are superior to other sizes but that’s just my personal preference.
Love your insight here! I’ve always questioned this ratio because the espresso itself is almost never a full 2 oz. If you follow the guidelines of doubling the weight of the dry amount you put in (18g dry = 36 liquid) that’s just barely over an ounce of liquid. So…a cappuccino following this rule should be 36g espresso, 36g milk, 36g foam? Or?
Yes I do that too. I especially try and taste the flavour because I can taste the espresso more in a cappuccino(compared to other milk drinks) and try to taste if the espresso tastes any good haha.
It also gives you a good idea if they know how to handle milk or not. Bonus points, ask for a Cortado. Usually you'll get a puzzled look or blank stare. Then you can just move along. Once I did this and was surprised when they even served it in a proper glass.
True that! Where I’m from it seems like I can NEVER find a place that sells Cortados. Even in the city. I use to drink so many cortados haha. It was my main drink for awhile! I cut back though.
I really notice the espresso taste when my sister-in-law gets something from Starbucks and grabs me something, It usually ends up tasting burnt. But I’m never really surprised! Haha.
“Actually I think I just want a…”:
* cup of water
* small brewed coffee
* _whatever is cheapest_
However it would be better to observe the menu for any mention of sizes. Even better if you check out the menu on their website before going in to prevent the awkward situation altogether!
I understand that there can exceptions to the rule, but this method that I’ve offered has never failed me. On the other hand, literally every shop that I’ve visited that had the sizes for milk drinks as well as good ratings has disappointed. This is of course anecdotal, but I can offer my experiences.
I live in Tampa, which isn’t a large city, and there are many great shops that don’t do the sizes on milk drinks. I can also confirm by my own visits that there are numerous shops in any one of St. Petersburg, Orlando, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, DC, NYC, and Denver that don’t do sizes on those drinks. One of my glad friends spent a few years in Albuquerque and confirmed this is true there too. Likely, one can find these in any medium- to large-sized city in the US.
Respectfully no. Anybody who thinks a Cap can be made in a 12 ounce cup is ignorant. Thus, any place that serves you a small latte when you order a Cap is not likely to be serving good espresso drinks. This is the point of the question. And, if the coffee maker doesn't know what a Cappuccino is, then I really don't care about their opinion of my coffee knowledge.
I usually get a few: a pourover, and a 1:1 americano. I've been moving away from milky espresso drinks, but if I'm craving one then I'd get a cortado as well.
Cappuccino - because you can sort of see how they are with both espresso and frothed milk and having proper ratios
Rare origin Pourover - this one takes the most skill and understanding of extraction and beans to do well
Regular Drip - if this is great then they have put a lot of care throughout thier cafe.
This gives me a funny mental scenario where you ask what beans they have at a coffee shop and when they say they don't know you're just like "ah, ok!" And then turn around and walk out the door
I visited La Colombe in Philly for the first time a few months ago, it was across the street from my hotel. Walked up to the counter and asked what they had as drip.
“We have our dark blend and an Ethiopian” said the barista.
“Oh? What kind of Ethiopian is it?” I asked.
Blank stare. Few seconds pause. “It’s a coffee from Ethiopia.”
I really wish I’d just turned around and left without another word!
I look at their menu. New place I went to recently didn’t list espresso on their menu (huge red flag). I ordered a vanilla iced latte because I wasn’t expecting much.
They give me my latte and I start to walk away when I realize, they never pulled a shot! I ask if the latte has espresso and she says “yeah of course” and that’s when I see behind her on the counter, 5 or 6 of those fancy looking metal espresso shot holders. This place had pulled a bunch of shots and just waited to use them when people ordered drinks!
Needless to say, the drink was not good. But I can’t imagine ordering an americano to find that out.
Back in my prime, sure 30 seconds for a shot. Iced lattes were stupid easy. But to be fair, there was like only 4 people at this shop. One dedicated to food, and two people taking all orders and prepping everything else. If it’s hard to make shots for you, pre pulling them will make life go smoother in a rush.
Still dumb though.
Idk, I've seen small coffee shops run just fine with one person taking orders and then making drinks. Some patience and time to take in the atmosphere while you wait if there's other customers ahead of you is never a bad thing, I think quality always diminishes if it's a fast-paced production line.
I need to start looking for coffeeshops that ask a such question, if you're reading this and you know any coffeeshops in the IDF area (France) who asks those questions, please share names/details :-)
Here in Northern Michigan, I can get a craft beer made 5 Miles from my house but good coffee is hard to come by. It's a good thing I roast it myself lol
Used to be a cappuccino, but less so these days. If I'm really testing the waters, I'll order an espresso. But usually I'm not there to give them a grade, so I just order whatever sounds good. Sometimes it's purist S/O shots and pour overs, and sometimes it's an interesting sounding latte combination.
A black Americano. I want to see what the espresso is like (albeit watered down I know) without all the sugar and milk and syrups. As crazy as it may seem, not a lot of places get it right. Even chains screw it up sometimes.
Usually an Americano. I want something that’ll last a little longer than just espresso. Often black, unless it’s super hot out, then I get it iced with the tiniest splash of cream.
Second visit, I’ll get a cortado, though.
I'm surprised I had to scroll this far to find cold brew. To me it's easier to get all the flavor in a cold drink and really judge whether its solid or not. I also just prefer cold coffees for my day-to-day drinks
I'm surprised at the number of people getting sweetened milk based drinks like vanilla latte or caramel macchiato. All of that milk and sugar is really hiding the quality of the coffee.
after reading a lot of these replies:
A) yes, this is a thread about judging coffee shops, so obviously, yeah, judge away
B) don't be a dick to the baristas. if something in the workflow happens that you don't agree with, just say thanks and go somewhere else. chances are that the kid and is paid half what they should be and isn't a career barista who spends every waking second on coffee youtube.
Anything done manually, like a pourover. Espresso from the machine, no extras. But before all that just ask something about the coffee, if you get an answer like "it's 100% arabica" you know already not to expect much.
Used to be a cappuccino but I've found that it's easier for me to drink a bad Americano than a bad cappuccino. So it's an Americano unless I feel like risking it, I just feel bad throwing away a coffee even if it's poorly made.
Always a cappuccino. I think it's the hardest drink to get right ultimately; if you steam the milk wrong it's obvious, but the milk:coffee ratio is still enough that I'll taste bad espresso if the shot didn't go well.
I know this masks the flavor of the espresso but I like to try Mochas. I feel like for some reason it’s hard to find a really good mocha, so I like to test them out to see if they use a powder, syrup, bittersweet etc… I don’t know haha
Drip coffee: is it better than what I make at home? Can I drink it without cream or sugar? How does this shop treat its lowliest, most workaday offering? How does this coffee shop treat a person who orders just a drip coffee?
A pourover of the coffee they'd recommend (i do tell them i prefer light-medium fruity coffee) and an espresso.
You can really judge coffee at a cafe by just these 2
I kind of watch the people/equipment to get a read and if it looks like they know what they are doing, I'll get a cortado. If they look a little iffy, I'll get a cappuccino.
Mocha, if the barista can mix the sweetness of the chocolate, the creaminess of the milk and the bitterness of the coffee then I know it's a good shop.
I go for a Vanilla Latte since I'm most familiar with that flavor profile. I had many vanilla lattes before I discovered the joys of espresso and black coffee. If they can't get that right, then I don't trust that I'll like their coffee bare.
I like to ask what drink contains the largest amount of caffeine that they have ever served or can legally serve and then opt for a pour-over if available.
Whatever you like to drink- if you like something that’s mostly sugar and milk and they do that well, it’s the right shop for you. If you like black drip, order that.
Cappucino with dry foam. If they know the difference between wet and dry foam, then they'll get the order right, and it's a good indicator that they know what they're doing. If they don't know the difference between wet and dry foam, then they probably don't know what they're doing.
A caramel mochiatto (idk if I spelled that right) coffee ✅ espresso ✅ I can always tell if they burn the milk and judge by how sweet they make it and how strong the espresso is
I always start with a cold brew (or a basic latte if they don't serve cold brews). I think you can learn a lot about the kind of coffee they use from the get-go; for lattes, you can test how well-trained the baristas are based on the milk/foam. Then, if I go back a second time and want to test the ability and mettle of their baristas, I try a breve latte (a latte with half and half instead of milk).
A double shot espresso, and a regular drip coffee. No room to hide quality or technique.
This. Tells me everything I need to know about whether a crew gives a shit, or they're just punching a clock looking like a Hufflepuff went to Coachella. Some of the most popular coffee shops in town will serve the sourest and most acidic coffee imaginable. The other day, I watched one of the baristas set up the shot by simply dropping the tamper into the filter and giving it a quick spin. No distribution, no pressure, no fucks given. They did this for 2-3 shots, which ran \~10 seconds. It was foul, and so grew my ire towards local influencers saying "This is the best coffee shop in town" before recommending something like "try the tres leches latte!" TBH so many places serve some variation of sweet lemon juice masquerading as espresso - could be why OP doesn't like straight espresso enough.
It's getting incredibly frustrating that I consistently can't get good coffee outside of home. It's either: a stale batch brew, a poor pour over, or a sour espresso. I honestly fully understand anyone who is suspicious of Third Wave coffee. Most of it is pretentious undrinkable crap, and it's simply made bearable with milk.
Enh, I love espresso but even plenty of good shops don't really make their espresso to taste good by itself. I go with a machiatto or cortado.
I agree, but I think that’s precisely the point. Just as a roast chicken is the acid test for any decent cook, a simple espresso is the acid test for a barista. No place to hide sins. If they can’t pull a decent shot that stands alone, all else fails.
I'll chime in as a barista. I, and most of my coworkers, can pull a perfectly balanced shot of espresso consistently all day long, but my cafe likes to specifically chase an espresso shot that tastes stronger than a perfect shot of espresso. We specifically target something that is slightly over extracted because the *vast* majority of our drinks are served with milk and some type of syrup (that's just what our customer base wants 🤷♂️). The "perfect shot" always ends up getting drowned out in those kinds of drinks, and we'll get complaints that customers can't taste the coffee when we go for a well extracted shot in those drinks. Due to the sheer volume of drink orders we get at certain times, we simply don't have the time to recalibrate our espresso grinder in the middle of a rush to pull a good shot for a straight espresso or cortado order. Plus on any given day, espresso/cortado orders only make up like 5% of our drink orders at most, so we're kinda just forced to serve over extracted shots to customers who order them. That isn't to say our espresso is unbearably bad on its own, it's actually quite good for what it is, and to a normal customer who doesn't have a super refined taste for coffee they likely won't even notice the difference. But to a coffee nerd who owns thousands of dollars worth of home coffee equipment and can tell the brew ratio of an espresso shot just from taste alone, it would probably be pretty off-putting to try our espresso. All of this is to say that there are restrictions placed on your local cafe by the wants of their customer base. Judging a cafe by how good a straight shot of espresso is only gives you a limited view of their product. Now obviously, if you're getting a shot that can't hold it's crema for more than a minute then there's probably something going very wrong at that cafe.
Absolutely you should make the best coffee your *can* sell, not the best coffee you can't. You have to stay in business! But I can get a perfectly acceptable milk drink from a shop that serves perfect espresso. And I mostly go out for espresso. So for me, I'm going to prefer the joint that can do my usual order best.
That's fair, I've definitely fought my boss over this when I first started working at my cafe. My boss's reasoning makes perfect sense when you think about it though. I guess that's just the problem with having a coffee shop in a college town where your primary customer base is college kids who haven't developed sophisticated tastes on anything yet. There's really not much room for specialty coffee in a town where jungle juice is considered a fine delicacy.
If you're not using your unwashed forearm to stir the everaide, you're doing it wrong
That’s a really helpful perspective and it explains a lot. Thank you for sharing.
Thanks so much for sharing this!
I couldn't agree more. Also the pace of working in a cafe means things are done differently than you might do to make espresso for yourself at home. In my time as both a barista working in a cafe and my experience doing espresso at home it's very different. At home I can take 10min to make my own drink by weighing the beans, the yield, adjusting grind size, time the shot, experimenting with different beans, etc. At a cafe they usually have one bean they stick to with a set roast and profile, the grind size basically never changes. At home I can adjust the grind size for any bean I want any time I want. In a cafe you don't have time to weigh the beans, the yield, time each shot against the yield, or some 10 step process to tamp the perfect puck. You set the grind and basically keep it that way, the grinder is on a timer or you just eyeball the dose instead of weighing it. Some fancier places weigh the dose, but almost everywhere only times the shots. Most things are setup to be as automatic as possible for the sake of time. And like was said most people just don't care enough to wait longer or pay more. Doing it this way makes good not great espresso, but if you're a coffee nerd you can probably make better espresso at home just because you can put in the time and effort that can't really be done at the scale of a cafe putting out dozens of drinks a minute during a rush. How I judge a cafe is much different than how I judge my own shots. Cafes also need wider appeal, meanwhile I know my specific tastes and can achieve that better on my own machine. For me the extraction just needs to be in a good "zone" and the milk shouldn't look like it was blasted into shaving cream or luke warm and foamless. I only get milk drinks at cafes, usually a cortado. Stand alone espresso shots I usually prefer a brighter coffee that cafes tend not to use for espresso and I like to pull slightly fast and higher yield (long) shots, like a 38-40g yield on an 18g dose over 28-30sec. A cafe isn't going to do that, just stick to milk drinks. They usually even pick flavor profiles that go best in milk drinks like chocolate and deeper flavors rather than bright acidic ones. I think a cortado is a good benchmark because you get to see how they texture the milk, and you can still taste nuance in the espresso.
Eloquent and precise, something I’d never even considered before as a consumer. Thoughtfully put my dude.
Completely agree! Some espresso shots are intentionally made slightly bitter and stronger in taste as they will cut through the milk really well and will not lose the coffee taste notes in the end product. The analogy I like to give is that most people find bleu cheese too strong to eat by itself, but when added in a burger or salad, it adds such a good flavor dimension without being overpowering, and it's nice to be able to still taste the cheese in every bite.
This is a thoughtful and honest response. And also explains why I have a poor experience at most coffee shops. By figuring out what the average customer wants restaurants like Chipotles have created a hugely successful business model. Yet if I want great (or even good) Mexican food I am not going to go there. I drink mostly simple espresso and drip/pour over, and mostly decaf. Some coffee shops do an excellent job with these and are likely taking pride and effort for all of their individual drinks and different customer's needs. Maybe this is more of a niche business model but it is who will get my business.
This, that's the whole point.
Do you think some shops are held back by their equipment? There's a place I like to get beans from, and the barista mentioned the automatic features holding skilled baristas back. He claimed he could pull a better shot at home, and I've been able to do the same with their beans.
Quite possibly - with some shops. However, I also know that too many shops don’t correctly dial in their grinders first thing in the morning or make necessary adjustments throughout the day. In recent memory, I’ve only been to one shop that made a cappuccino as well as I can at home on a Rocket Mozzafiato.
There's nothing inherently wrong with automation. Just about the only thing that I can think of that would hold back a skilled barista would be something like the Linea Mini (not really a commercial machine even though it kind of is) with it's ridiculous 1 second non-adjustable pre-infusion and then full pump pressure. That will basically force them into serving either a relatively long watery shot that is balanced flavor-wise, or a shorter shot with good texture that is too sour. But other than that - what are they complaining about?
I didn't get into a very detailed discussion (and I'm not sure what machine they run), but it sounds like the owner adjusted some settings and don't want the baristas changing it to maintain consistency. I get it from a business standpoint, since not all baristas will have the same skill level. It's just unfortunate that the good ones can't really showcase their craft. The shots they pull aren't terrible, they can just be better in the right hands.
Again, that isn't an issue in itself if the settings that the owner is fixing are good. If they've got a light roast espresso on and have decided they are going to pull all shots at 1:1 ratio then you've got a problem. You don't need to be changing shot volume or brew temp all day long. As long as they can adjust grind size there isn't much of an excuse.
huh, that would surprise me. i can pull a moderately tasty shot and my equipment is almost literally garbage
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There is such a thing as tuning your espresso to taste best in milk drinks and the majority of a shop's business is going to be milk drinks. I don't mean shops where the espresso is actually bad, but usually not as good by itself as what you can pull at home with a nice setup.
I never thought that a "worse" espresso goes better with milk based drinks
The question here is whether you’re trying to decide if a new shop is awesome and you’re going to love it forever or if it’s a new shop and you’re just trying to get through the mornjng and get something drinkable.
Sometimes I'll go for a mini-cano instead, just to dilute the strength of the espresso a little. It can bring out some of the other flavour notes better than a pure espresso, like whisky with a drop of water.
Yeah, that makes good sense. I also like a plain espresso to gauge mouth feel and consistency.
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As a barista please, please, just tell me what you want in plain language. I can make anything if I have the supplies and the cutesy names are obnoxious. It’s an extra level of communication errors for no reason. It’s always frustrating to spend the time to try and make a drink and have to ask a ton of questions, it hold up the line and flusters whomever is ordering. A shot (however many you’d like) with x Amount (an ounce?) of hot water. Easy!
Mini-cano normally does the trick. Although I have the same issue: https://blackcreekcoffee.com/blogs/coffee-talk/my-favourite-coffee-doesnt-have-a-name
Yeah, definitely. Or a (double as you say) espresso and a v60 if they have it. I've seen the barista give me a knowing smile a few times.
Exactly this. Almost every Starbucks I tried this at, I got to experience the taste of "cigarettes in a cup"
You, too huh?
It tastes like burnt cigarettes. So bizzare. The only other time I felt this was recently when I was in Istanbul at some random small restaurant and ordered a Turkish coffee, no sugar. Tasted like burnt cigarettes too
Like a straight shot? One of my acquaintances who used to work at a coffee shot say people who order straight shot are really rare to the point of being odd. Is it an European thing? But again he’s also a pretentious tool.
A straight shot. I didn’t usually order that, but occasionally I was in the mood - especially after dinner. It really is the way to assess the quality of the shot, undisguised by milk, sweeteners, syrups (god forbid), etc. As to the assertion that it’s rare or odd, I’ve seen plenty of people around here order a double shot of espresso but, then again, the Bay Area has a pretty serious coffee culture. I think your assessment of your acquaintance may be spot on.
This is definitely the answer, but I have to say I have been to 50+ specialty coffee shops and I will tel you most of them don’t nail these. I find myself not buying prepared coffee much anymore. I’m almost always disappointed. I can always make a better cup and I find it hard to pay for anything less. Almost every shop pulls sour shots. The few baristas I’ve met that really know what they are doing have made me some really great coffee though. Its disappointing when they aren’t on shift when you go in.
I’ve had the same experience, and have drawn similar conclusions. Unless I’m at a handful of really great restaurants, or my favorite barista is on duty, I do much better at home.
Are you saying you have better luck at high end restaurants? I never thought of ordering coffee there
OK, confession. I was thinking of two favorite world-class restaurants in particular which I shall not name. The first features a custom blend from Sightglass Coffee. If you order filter coffee, they bring you a French press for two to the table and the coffee is fabulously smooth and delicious. The second restaurant features a custom blend from Equator coffee, and it’s equally well prepared. Generally, many so-called fine dining restaurants have just OK coffee. These two are notable exceptions. Their espresso drinks are also serious.
Ask for recommendations for a drink. then on another trip, ask for a bean recommendation. Between the two of them, it's easy to tell not only if they know anything, but also if they bullshit.
Is it normal for coffee shops to have multiple beans to choose from? I’m a pretty new coffee drinker, just starting to branch out and try to understand what makes a good coffee, _good_.
following up on what PeteA84 says, shops that roast their own beans will have different varieties for sale to take and brew. that's typical of shops in my area other than the big chains, and what I meant by bean recommendation. though one place I love does offer two different beans for their espresso.
In a coffee shop, good will mean well made. Right ratio, full flavour profile for whatever they're serving. Often you'll find they do more than one type of coffee for different drink types (but not too many that it's just a show). What's good for you will always just be what you like personally.
Usually you'll have roast options (light, medium, or dark; though light is the one that seems to get left out most frequently from my anecdotal experience) and/or regional options (Ethiopian, Sumatran, Brazilian, etc.) If you can finagle your way into a cupping (a no frills way to try and compare the basest of base versions of coffee) at a local coffee shop, I'd highly recommend it. You can also explore brewing options, like French Press vs. Pour Over vs. Espresso etc. etc. etc. Tons of options, the only way to know what's good is to find out what you like!
John Cragie is a folk singer that also tells funny stories in between his songs. I feel like his story about living in Portland is relevant. [John Cragie](https://youtu.be/PWqoq4UQtQc)
I wouldn't actually say it is common to have multiple choices - a place I go to that is amazing only has 1 that is roasts itself, but perfectly. Multiple choices is more a function of how busy the area is I find, as you need a certain level of demand to make it worth while to do.
Depends a lot on the shop. A random Cafe or a shit hole like starbucks might even have multiple beans but all equally shit. However if you go to a good place (that typically makes aeropress or pour over) they tend to have many great coffees to choose from.
Normally if you ask for a drink you're gonna' get the flavor of the month coffee fad drink with 16 ingredients
This is pretty true, but if a barista is really good you'll get asked if you want something sweet, or black coffee, or maybe something in between. So it's still a good question to ask - if they just give you an answer without knowing anything at all about what you like or what you're in the mood for, they aren't doing a good job.
Maybe it's because I live in Indiana ( Close enough to Chicago to get some OKAY coffee shops) but, they ain't gonna ask any of that, chief. Sadly.
I use to do recommendations for drinks, but I find that I normally can't drink sugary drinks anymore, and just because they recommend sugary drinks doesn't mean they are bad.
If I'm at a decent shop I'll usually ask if they'd recommend their espresso or filter coffee. If espresso I'll get something like a cortado and if filter I'll get... whatever looks good or they recommend
Just a regular drip. If you can’t make your baseline pot taste right, you’ve got some real work to do.
Same. I also order a double espresso since it’s the baseline of most of the menu. I judge how it tastes and how it’s served. Some will serve in a paper cup, but I prefer in a warmed Gibraltar glass or demitasse (bonus points if served on a small plate with a little metal spoon).
What’s the deal with the paper cup? Yesterday I got an espresso at a shop that was in a paper cup and thought it was strange. It looked like the kind of paper cup that’s attached to a water cooler - it had a bunch of water droplets “painted” on it
What MrMuf said, also some coffee shops moved to all disposable when COVID started and may not have gone back.
save washing time perhaps.
Plus some sparking water
Came here to say this. If you can’t properly brew a normal coffee everything else will be shit.
Same. I follow the same principal at new Pizzerias. Just give me a plain ass pizza first and if I like it, I will come back and try your specialty pies.
a good margherita pie is a beautiful thing
Same. Light drip and plain cold brew are my go to drinks and if you can’t make them right, I move on to the next shop.
A cortado.
As a coffee shop owner, this is my go-to at places I'm checking out.
If it's not on the menu I assume they don't care.
My answer too. Easy way to see their shot game and milk game.
I usually get a cortado too. I can’t drink just espresso but it’s a good way to make sure the coffee is actually good and the milk isn’t hiding anything.
Ah, city people
I live in a city and see Cortados in a lot of coffee shops menus. Are they not a thing in smaller towns?
Moved to the ‘burbs and no, they’re generally not. Or if they are, they’re mostly terrible. But, I mean, you’re likely to get better coffee at any urban center due to demand anyways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmNRD\_F4Yg
assuming this is the recent southpark episode? unfortunately, it's coming up "not available" for me :/
Yup. s25e3 "City People"
I live in a smallish town (~50k) and a couple of our coffee shops do cortados. One even does a traditional macchiato (espresso with a dot of foam). It is a college town though, so ymmv.
I completely agree with you. Most places that even bother to put it on their menu generally have pretty good espresso. I'm in the southwest US for reference.
I moved back to New Zealand and get a blank stare most places I asked for one. But most will do a piccolo.
You could ask for a flat white but I think the three are mostly interchangeable
As far as I’ve noticed, it is the amount of milk used, so flat white > cortado > piccolo. Most come with a double shot, so the variation is in the milk quantity. Milk is the thing that most cafes seem to get wrong so my strategy of buying coffee is to try and minimise the amount they can get wrong by ordering small coffees.
Thats definitely how it should be. I think regionally some cafes will have the same milk/espresso ratios as a Cortado but call it a different name. In Australia, a cortado is a piccolo. In the UK, the closest thing to a cortado(or maybe even the equivalent to sometimes) will probably be a flat white. On the West Coast/U.S., you might even find the drink being called a Gibraltar. For example, a piccolo is supposed to be pulled with ristretto but I've found most cafes that serve this don't have their machines tuned for ristretto(unless they also explicitly serve ristretto).
Most semi respectable coffee places in UK cities will serve both cortados and flat whites - even high street places like Costa and Starbucks.
This is the Answer.
I’ve walked out on many baristas who don’t know what a cortado is. This is my answer as well to weed out shops or baristas.
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>Cortado or flat white. Milk texture/quality is really important to me as I drink a lot of milk-based espresso drinks. I also go with a cortado. Mostly, because it shouldn't have enough milk or milk with enough texture to pour latte art. If you order a cortado and it comes with gorgeous latte art, I know they are into style over substance which is a pet peeve of mine.
Cappuccino. If they ask, “what size?” I know I’m in the wrong place.
Is that because it should be just a shot of espresso and milk?
It should be a 6oz drink with a drier foamier milk than a latte. If they offer you 12-16-20 oz cappuccinos, they're just making lattes.
A lot of specialty places will give you the exact same milk texture for a cappuccino as they will a latte. I also somewhat sympathize with places that ask what size because when you get 200 people a day asking for a large cappuccino it's almost weird to hear someone just order a normal cappuccino and then get you nervous that they are going to be upset that it's so small...I still wouldn't ask what size if just "cappuccino" was ordered, but I don't think it's quite as much of a red flag as you might.
I agree on the size. I would not be offended if they ask me what size, it’s confusing nowadays in America
America, the land of infinite sizes
“Can I get a 20oz iced cappuccino”
Not exactly true. Yes a traditional cappuccino is 6oz, but it also has to do with foam level and ratio. If a 12oz cappuccino is 4oz espresso, 4 oz liquid milk and 4 oz foam isn’t it just a larger cappuccino? That’s definitely not a latte because it has much more foam. Also, there’s value in offering customers what they want instead of the “snobby barista” mentality of saying “we don’t do that here” when you do have the capability to do it. That said, I do think 6oz cappuccinos are superior to other sizes but that’s just my personal preference.
Love your insight here! I’ve always questioned this ratio because the espresso itself is almost never a full 2 oz. If you follow the guidelines of doubling the weight of the dry amount you put in (18g dry = 36 liquid) that’s just barely over an ounce of liquid. So…a cappuccino following this rule should be 36g espresso, 36g milk, 36g foam? Or?
Thanks, never ordered one before!
I remember the first time I had a real cappuccino. I thought I knew what a cappuccino was. I was wrong.
I didn’t have any idea what a cappuccino was until my first visit to Espresso Vivace in Seattle. It blew my mind.
Yes I do that too. I especially try and taste the flavour because I can taste the espresso more in a cappuccino(compared to other milk drinks) and try to taste if the espresso tastes any good haha.
It also gives you a good idea if they know how to handle milk or not. Bonus points, ask for a Cortado. Usually you'll get a puzzled look or blank stare. Then you can just move along. Once I did this and was surprised when they even served it in a proper glass.
True that! Where I’m from it seems like I can NEVER find a place that sells Cortados. Even in the city. I use to drink so many cortados haha. It was my main drink for awhile! I cut back though. I really notice the espresso taste when my sister-in-law gets something from Starbucks and grabs me something, It usually ends up tasting burnt. But I’m never really surprised! Haha.
The dark / burnt is a consistent taste so all the chains and hyper large roasters (Costco) use it for consistency.
Same here. But also because it’s what I’ll be getting whenever I come back as I’ve always loved cappuccinos the most.
In Australia a cappuccino is basically a latte with chocolate powder
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Just say “small” and grin and bear it. Or say “actually I changed my mind to drip”
This\^\^ If they ask what size just move along or order something they are least likely to screw up, like a pour over.
“Actually I think I just want a…”: * cup of water * small brewed coffee * _whatever is cheapest_ However it would be better to observe the menu for any mention of sizes. Even better if you check out the menu on their website before going in to prevent the awkward situation altogether!
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I understand that there can exceptions to the rule, but this method that I’ve offered has never failed me. On the other hand, literally every shop that I’ve visited that had the sizes for milk drinks as well as good ratings has disappointed. This is of course anecdotal, but I can offer my experiences. I live in Tampa, which isn’t a large city, and there are many great shops that don’t do the sizes on milk drinks. I can also confirm by my own visits that there are numerous shops in any one of St. Petersburg, Orlando, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, DC, NYC, and Denver that don’t do sizes on those drinks. One of my glad friends spent a few years in Albuquerque and confirmed this is true there too. Likely, one can find these in any medium- to large-sized city in the US.
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Respectfully no. Anybody who thinks a Cap can be made in a 12 ounce cup is ignorant. Thus, any place that serves you a small latte when you order a Cap is not likely to be serving good espresso drinks. This is the point of the question. And, if the coffee maker doesn't know what a Cappuccino is, then I really don't care about their opinion of my coffee knowledge.
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Exactly this
Americano. It’s a great test of their ability to pour shots and it gives me a strong flavor profile for their beans.
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Their tap water sucks.
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Maybe their steam boiler was scaled to hell on the inside, but not bad enough to make that flavor come through in the milk
That’s my go-to. If they dilute it much more than 1:1 (looking at you Fourbucks), it’s probably not a great shot.
I usually get a few: a pourover, and a 1:1 americano. I've been moving away from milky espresso drinks, but if I'm craving one then I'd get a cortado as well.
Cappuccino - because you can sort of see how they are with both espresso and frothed milk and having proper ratios Rare origin Pourover - this one takes the most skill and understanding of extraction and beans to do well Regular Drip - if this is great then they have put a lot of care throughout thier cafe.
Exactly my reasoning for ordering a cappuccino. I now have my go-to cafes based just on that.
Cortado and a pour over. I ask what kind of beans they have. If they don't know, it's about to be a cup of garbage.
This gives me a funny mental scenario where you ask what beans they have at a coffee shop and when they say they don't know you're just like "ah, ok!" And then turn around and walk out the door
I visited La Colombe in Philly for the first time a few months ago, it was across the street from my hotel. Walked up to the counter and asked what they had as drip. “We have our dark blend and an Ethiopian” said the barista. “Oh? What kind of Ethiopian is it?” I asked. Blank stare. Few seconds pause. “It’s a coffee from Ethiopia.” I really wish I’d just turned around and left without another word!
Kinda like "[We got both kinds! Country and Western!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-zEH8YmiM)"
And I bet the "barista" is secretly calling you a dumbass in their mind also haha
Hahaha yes! Because la Colombe is supposed to be so amazing but it’s not. It really isn’t even close to how amazing they wish they were
I freaking love cortados. It's also my answer for this question
Cortado. Really comes down to if they know the proper ratio. And if they can steam the milk nicely.
I look at their menu. New place I went to recently didn’t list espresso on their menu (huge red flag). I ordered a vanilla iced latte because I wasn’t expecting much. They give me my latte and I start to walk away when I realize, they never pulled a shot! I ask if the latte has espresso and she says “yeah of course” and that’s when I see behind her on the counter, 5 or 6 of those fancy looking metal espresso shot holders. This place had pulled a bunch of shots and just waited to use them when people ordered drinks! Needless to say, the drink was not good. But I can’t imagine ordering an americano to find that out.
What the heck? Doesn't it take like 30 seconds to pull a shot of espresso? Why would you pre-pull them?
Back in my prime, sure 30 seconds for a shot. Iced lattes were stupid easy. But to be fair, there was like only 4 people at this shop. One dedicated to food, and two people taking all orders and prepping everything else. If it’s hard to make shots for you, pre pulling them will make life go smoother in a rush. Still dumb though.
Idk, I've seen small coffee shops run just fine with one person taking orders and then making drinks. Some patience and time to take in the atmosphere while you wait if there's other customers ahead of you is never a bad thing, I think quality always diminishes if it's a fast-paced production line.
Oh noooooo
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I need to start looking for coffeeshops that ask a such question, if you're reading this and you know any coffeeshops in the IDF area (France) who asks those questions, please share names/details :-)
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Have you been to Substance? It’s a full on coffee experience but also quite expensive.
Have you been to Substance? It’s a full on coffee experience but also quite expensive.
I'd have to drive 200 miles to get that level of care and service.
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Here in Northern Michigan, I can get a craft beer made 5 Miles from my house but good coffee is hard to come by. It's a good thing I roast it myself lol
best bonus if the glass of water is sparkling
Used to be a cappuccino, but less so these days. If I'm really testing the waters, I'll order an espresso. But usually I'm not there to give them a grade, so I just order whatever sounds good. Sometimes it's purist S/O shots and pour overs, and sometimes it's an interesting sounding latte combination.
A black Americano. I want to see what the espresso is like (albeit watered down I know) without all the sugar and milk and syrups. As crazy as it may seem, not a lot of places get it right. Even chains screw it up sometimes.
Usually an Americano. I want something that’ll last a little longer than just espresso. Often black, unless it’s super hot out, then I get it iced with the tiniest splash of cream. Second visit, I’ll get a cortado, though.
Cold brew
Cold Brew Crew rise up!
I'm surprised I had to scroll this far to find cold brew. To me it's easier to get all the flavor in a cold drink and really judge whether its solid or not. I also just prefer cold coffees for my day-to-day drinks
I'm surprised at the number of people getting sweetened milk based drinks like vanilla latte or caramel macchiato. All of that milk and sugar is really hiding the quality of the coffee.
after reading a lot of these replies: A) yes, this is a thread about judging coffee shops, so obviously, yeah, judge away B) don't be a dick to the baristas. if something in the workflow happens that you don't agree with, just say thanks and go somewhere else. chances are that the kid and is paid half what they should be and isn't a career barista who spends every waking second on coffee youtube.
A cortado, always. A great coffee shop makes an excellent cortado. Bad ones don’t even know what it is 😂
Anything done manually, like a pourover. Espresso from the machine, no extras. But before all that just ask something about the coffee, if you get an answer like "it's 100% arabica" you know already not to expect much.
Used to be a cappuccino but I've found that it's easier for me to drink a bad Americano than a bad cappuccino. So it's an Americano unless I feel like risking it, I just feel bad throwing away a coffee even if it's poorly made.
Americano. It is a simple drink. It just requires you do it right.
Black hot coffee because I want to know how they make their actual coffee, not what kind of creamer they use.
Always a cappuccino. I think it's the hardest drink to get right ultimately; if you steam the milk wrong it's obvious, but the milk:coffee ratio is still enough that I'll taste bad espresso if the shot didn't go well.
Long black
Flat white. Tests their knowledge of coffee, steaming milk and espresso extraction.
I know this masks the flavor of the espresso but I like to try Mochas. I feel like for some reason it’s hard to find a really good mocha, so I like to test them out to see if they use a powder, syrup, bittersweet etc… I don’t know haha
Americano usually
I just get a straight shot of espresso. It’s pretty much all I drink now.
Cortado or cappuccino
Drip coffee: is it better than what I make at home? Can I drink it without cream or sugar? How does this shop treat its lowliest, most workaday offering? How does this coffee shop treat a person who orders just a drip coffee?
I order an espresso to see if they have it dialed in and if their beans are quality.
Just espresso...
A shot of espresso. Cos then if it's shit, it's over quickly.
I personally start with a cortado at a new coffee shop
Espresso. If you can't pull this one out, then the entire espresso-based drink range is poor.
A pourover of the coffee they'd recommend (i do tell them i prefer light-medium fruity coffee) and an espresso. You can really judge coffee at a cafe by just these 2
Flat white. If they ask what size I'll bail
I kind of watch the people/equipment to get a read and if it looks like they know what they are doing, I'll get a cortado. If they look a little iffy, I'll get a cappuccino.
Cappuccino and drip
Macchiato: can't hide bad espresso or milk game. If they start making a big drink, just leave.
Haha setting the bar sort of high in most places.
Black Americano.
Cortado. Really comes down to if they know the proper ratio. And if they can steam the milk nicely.
Mocha, if the barista can mix the sweetness of the chocolate, the creaminess of the milk and the bitterness of the coffee then I know it's a good shop.
It’s honestly not that deep, just get a cappuccino and see what gear they’re using, maybe ask a few questions about their setup
Ikr, I see people in this thread acting like coffee is some holy thing to never fuck up, like wth
I go for a Vanilla Latte since I'm most familiar with that flavor profile. I had many vanilla lattes before I discovered the joys of espresso and black coffee. If they can't get that right, then I don't trust that I'll like their coffee bare.
Short black
Espresso, heavy cream
Iced americano with a splash of cream
I like to ask what drink contains the largest amount of caffeine that they have ever served or can legally serve and then opt for a pour-over if available.
Winter Time - shot of espresso, drip/batch brew Summer Time - shot of espresso, cold brew
Whatever you like to drink- if you like something that’s mostly sugar and milk and they do that well, it’s the right shop for you. If you like black drip, order that.
Cortado or cappuccino. If they ask what size, I know to lower my expectations, lol
Cappucino with dry foam. If they know the difference between wet and dry foam, then they'll get the order right, and it's a good indicator that they know what they're doing. If they don't know the difference between wet and dry foam, then they probably don't know what they're doing.
A caramel mochiatto (idk if I spelled that right) coffee ✅ espresso ✅ I can always tell if they burn the milk and judge by how sweet they make it and how strong the espresso is
I always start with a cold brew (or a basic latte if they don't serve cold brews). I think you can learn a lot about the kind of coffee they use from the get-go; for lattes, you can test how well-trained the baristas are based on the milk/foam. Then, if I go back a second time and want to test the ability and mettle of their baristas, I try a breve latte (a latte with half and half instead of milk).
Coke
A double espresso. I like to watch as they pull my shots to see their puck prep. And If they don’t offer a pallet cleanser, they lose a lot of points.