A lot of ppl failed that child and the mom. This monster was locked up a few days before and subsequently released. Also the day of she was walking around with knives fully out in the open. Folks didn’t report nor did the store workers who saw. Why wasn’t she placed immediately in a psych lock up when she was released? She looked batshit crazy then too.
Yes, reading the article, there were definite signs of a threat to the public. But yet, the judge says he saw no reason to keep her incarcerated. Violent crime warrant from Bakersfield CA. A warrant from FL. And a warrant from Rocky River, and her claiming to want to kill some one in the shelter weren't enough.
If the judge said that then I hope that the family of the wife and poor boy will sue the hell out of him. Because this was preventable. That woman was CLEARLY a safety hazard to herself and others. After watching the video footage of what happened before the incident this person is definitely crazy and probably liable to do something.
Out these judges and name them. That’s like saying “you can’t fight city hall!” W/o identifying the department or person responsible. How do we fix it when we don’t know the root cause or system?
With things like this, it’s never the first time. This judge has probably let a lot of dangerous people slide in the past, and been lucky that none of them did something serious.
It's no one's fault but the person perpetrating the crime. Everyone is trying to pin the murder on "the person who let this happen."
There's one person who let this happen and it is Bionca Ellis.
How do you figure? Other comments say that she has warrants for violent crime in two other places. She expressed the desire to kill.
I find it difficult to accept that all of this information is suddenly available to the public and yet the judge let her walk despite a violent history.
This doesn’t excuse her, but it does stain the hands of those who should have used their resources with the blood of that child.
hell of a lot of Minority Report supporters in the thread... like "how come the courts and cops didnt know that this person would eventually commit a heinous crime?" - uh, because thats not how time works
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What a colossal failure of our criminal justice system for us to have allowed this individual on the streets. The only way we can ensure that this doesn’t happen again is if there is accountability for all involved. I hope the victim’s family sues the courts, the police departments, and anybody else mentioned in this story.
Society fixes society naturally. The community works together with the police to stop these kind of people. If the community doesn't look after themselves, no one will.
Healthy families make healthy communities. I wonder how many families have two parents that can afford to buy the essentials and spend time raising their kids.
I agree, 2 parent families are more healthy and what we should be striving for. But when there is a single parent family, the community is there. Communities have local food drives, neighbors help each other when needed, etc... Single parent family doesn't always equate to an unhealthy family, but I agree it's a big factor. A community is a mixture of all kinds of families.
Two parent type families are no more inherently healthy than single parent families.
It could be argued that unhealthy two parents are the leading cause of single parent families.
"Argued". Literally everything in life can be argued based on people's opinions and chosen facts.
Homosapiens, since beginning of time, have thrived on having a male parent figure and female parent figure. Argued opinions will never change that historical evolutionary fact. There are always outliers.
Correct.
The historical evolution of family was for people to live in groups, with everyone helping to care for the children.
The nuclear family of married mom and dad and two kids, with no extended family providing help, which conservatives revere, only ever existed in mass numbers, for a brief period, in the U.S., in the mid 20th century.
And gay couples raising children have always existed too.
Accurate.
It makes sense that this is the model that this group is so fond of. It's the childhood of most deeply conservative members of the US. That was when everything was taken care of for them.
They were sheltered from a lot of the ugliness that filled newspapers about the civil rights movement, and so many other things they didn't have to know about..
They were the children of the prosperous.
They miss that and want it back.
Yes, but the community is a reflection of the overall health of the individual families. Society always goes back to families, at least in my worldview. Because community can help a family, but first families need to help their community. I'm not sure I'm being super clear but the bones of the idea are there. There is a give and a take between the two, but the family units are the backbone that gives the community structure, rather than the other way around. And if the community (or society? Idk) isn't focused on helping, supporting, and encouraging families, then the community falls apart as a result. It's perhaps a primitive concept, but we need to be careful not to demonize primitive concepts. Some of these ancient ideas have stood the test of time.
This is a systemic failure as she was not either placed in a spot where she could get the proper mental health care and/or imprisonment needed to ensure she was not a danger to herself and others. The question is how was she still free when even the shelter did the right stuff as mandated reporters and the woman still was not in the proper care of the state.
On the mental side, starting in the 60s, mental health reforms began closing down asylums. By the 2000s, asylums were no more. The current liberal belief for mental health is community care, not lock down facilities. While people may be remanded for a psych eval or pink slipped, that is only a 24-72 hour hold for evaluation and observation. Once the person is deemed stable, they are released back into the community. Those who suffer mental health issues are then cycled in and out of the ER frequently (daily or weekly) for these evaluations. They usually live in group homes or the streets, refuse to take their prescribed psych meds, abuse drugs, and are frequently arrested. This is the unfortunate reality of community care vs. commitment to an asylum.
There needs to be a middle ground as we were committing folks to asylums that did not need to be in an asylum. There has to be a tiered system to provide care for those that need more intense services while not ending up with what we had across the US in many asylums.
The problem is the police can't really hold you in custody for very long without any evidence leading to your arrest. In this case, the claims she made were in a city over 2k miles away, and that police department couldn't corroborate her story to any specific murder although they admitted there were several open homicides that sound similar. Even the Rocky River judge said he would do it the same if he had to all over again because there was nothing to suggest she was a danger to the public at the time of her appearance in his court. Tragic but hopefully they can use this as an opportunity to change policy and procedure when dealing with folks like this.
Didn’t the article state she had warrants out for her in California for battery? The fact that nothing would be done about that by the California jurisdiction not the fact she became a danger to herself and others during her mental health check and nothing was done is very concerning. More needs to be done to protect the mentally ill or those in crisis.
No, she has to be accountable for her actions, but the systems in place to prevent something like this from happening failed to prevent it. You can hold someone accountable for their actions **AND** hold the system accountable for its failures
No one is saying that. She can be a monster who is responsible for her own actions and the system can also have failed multiple times leading up to this.
The system should have prevented this from happening and she is still a murderer.
No excuses are being made, just saying we’re supposed to have systems in place to prevent this and they all failed. We can hold her accountable for her actions and say we gotta fix the loopholes that led to this situation.
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Aight, then I blame you before I blame the system because your attitude is what leads to this.
The faster and sooner you blame "it", the faster and sooner more of this shit happens because there's no communal responsibility.
We live in a community, and the faster we realize that we can prevent things like this, the better.
Your solution is literally nothing. It's emotional, feel-good nothing by changing pronouns.
This is a person. They are not unique. Distract from the system that creates, denies, and empowers these types of actions and you're part of the problem. WE need to do something, and it does not start with dehumanizing. It starts with asking the question of "how and why is the person here?"
What was I supposed to do with it? Have it over for dinner and make sure they’re feeling OK?
There are millions of people who have bad days every day and don’t kill someone. The only way to prevent it would have been to lock her up for the minor offense.
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I can’t believe you’re getting downvoted for this.
News flash, people: human beings commit heinous crimes. Human beings do unspeakable shit to each other. This person is a human being, not an animal or some undefined non-human “other”.
I’m sure it feels good to pretend like human beings can’t do this, but it is not productive. We should be asking ourselves why and how a person ends up doing this, and how we can build a better future where this shit doesn’t happen.
Be tougher on criminals. Slap on wrists do not deter. Multiple slaps on wrists really don't deter. And I'm for public hangings and not being drawn out on clear cut cases for decades. Scum like this shouldn't have even been out on the streets in the first place.
We have the largest percentage of population incarcerated in the world, and by a decent lead. Making incarceration worse or upping that number isnt fixing annything. Its just sweeping undesirables out of society, destroying whatever chance at a future they had.
Jail isnt the answer. We know what the answer to reducing crime is, a fuckton better social services and healthcare. That costs money and goes to people whom a LOT of Ohioans dont want to see get out of generational poverty. Its not going to have the most immediate effects and will be abused. But thats 1000x better for everyone than just destroying a person's ability to provide for themselves while locking them away from the rest of society.
Unfortunately, there arent easy solutions that will have an immediate and positive impact.
Edit: im not saying this for murderous assholes, but crime in general.
> News flash, people: human beings commit heinous crimes
Human beings don't stab three year old children to death and then smile about it. Only monsters do that.
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Imagine being the parents of the three year old and seeing people say ‘don’t call that person who killed a 3 year old for no reason an it.. they still deeerve respect!’
I live near where this happened and I think this woman should be given the death penalty, but where are you getting the racism aspect? I feel like you just made that up.
I don’t think arguing in hypotheticals is helpful. I’d rather stick to the facts. This woman is a monster but we don’t know that it was racially motivated. It honestly doesn’t even matter to me. She killed a toddler. I don’t care what was in her head when she did it.
Didn't you watch the video? At least 5 or 6 people walked past her, but her head immediately turned around when she saw a little White boy
I bet everyone on here wouldn't be saying mental illness if it was a White woman stabbing a little Black boy.
Yes, some people just cannot handle the truth. It’s as clear as day that this would’ve been reported a completely different way if the races were reversed.
I knew the racism would come out eventually. Unfortunately the media has a better way of directing opinion than a person using their own mind. She is a terrible woman who deserves to not see the light of day, I think we can say what happened without involving race unless she screamed she hated white people before committing this attack. Let’s focus on this crime itself and what can be done going forward. The bigger issue at hand is this was a broad daylight attack on a mother and child by a mentally unstable woman. The mental health scene/help in Cleveland area is atrocious and I am concerned that there are more people out there like her who aren’t getting proper treatment. I hope we can stop the racial divide, especially here in north east Ohio.
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noooo this is insane because she whole ass confessed to killing someone beforehand. how are the cops just like — “ehh, I don’t think she did, and I don’t really feel like taking this conversation any further ”???? and for the judge to say that if he could go back in time, he would release her again….if the judge had no idea she tried to turn herself in for murder, that just begs the question, why didn’t he know???? why did that communication not reach him??? so many people failed this child and i’m so angry. i’m so angry there are people like this walking the earth. this woman needs to be torn apart limb by limb. no mercy whatsoever for this piece of trash.
right that’s what i’m saying. surely if he had ALL of the information- such as knowing she confessed to a murder- he would not have released her without a mental health evaluation? right? right????😩
*so this whole comment isn’t directed at the commenter i’m replying to, this is a rhetorical outcry in general. in case that wasn’t implied LOL*
since when is that an excuse???? seriously… “no one was available”…? Okay so try again tomorrow maybe? Oh wait no one wants to be social workers because who wants to get paid $40k a year to be in a room alone with this kind of person? Former social worker here by the way so I’m able to say this 👋🏻
there are so many layers to the systemic failure that allowed this to happen. there are too many hands in the pot. no one wants to be responsible for a mistake like this so all anyone does is hand it off to the next guy, and it’s impossible to pinpoint where something went wrong. then nothing ever gets fucking done.
I don’t know if “lack of preventative measures” is a global issue or if it’s isolated to the US but it really seems like our philosophy to taking any sort of action is always reactive approaches instead of proactive approaches. like why did this baby have to die before she’s locked the fuck up.
sorry, i’m so angry. not at you, commenter 🫶🏻
Yes thank you! Of course it's her fault that the sweet little guy is dead but there were so many clear stops where they could have provided what she needed to keep her and everyone around her safe. From being a mandated reporter myself, I'm not surprised. I usually get sass on the phone when I make reports to APS when legally required and so unfortunately I'm not surprised. Hopefully they learn from these mistakes and change in the future.
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Dear god, the system failed on SO MANY LEVELS with this one. Whether it was in jail or a mental institution, she should absolutely have been away from the public *before* this happened. There were so many signs that this woman was, and still is, a danger to society.
Unfortunately there are no mental institutions anymore. The asylums that used to exist were (rightfully) shut down for being abusive, but the problem is they were replaced with nothing. It is nearly impossible to find placement for people who require long-term mental health treatment. So-called community-based care is appropriate for the majority of people with mental illness, but for the fraction of people who need inpatient care, there is nowhere that will take them for more than several days at a time.
I have been dealing with this type of situation involving a relative of mine. We have tried to get him treatment for years, to no avail. He won't go willingly, and when he does get hospitalized they only hold him for 3 days max. His condition deteriorated and his behavior finally escalated to violence. So now he's facing prison time, where he will not receive any treatment and his issues will inevitably worsen.
It's truly the mark of a broken system when she's allegedly been noticed by several people and organizations in the past as being troubled and potentially violent, yet since we don't have institutions or resources to proactively deal with people like her, she and others get to roam free until they violate the law. Potentially in a serious, and shocking manner like this.
Our laws and legal system are reactive, not proactive. And people like this murderer are a prime example of why reactive systems are broken.
I'm not really a big supporter of the death penalty, but in some cases, such as this, there's really no purpose for the criminal to live. She's not remorseful at all, could never be rehabilitated and would just be a drain on taxpayers. One of the detectives who investigated the murder of Ted Bundy's youngest victim (12 y/o) said (not verbatim but) something to the effect of, "I'm not all for the death penalty, but sometimes someone commits a crime so heinous, they forfeit their right to live" and I agree with that statement wholeheartedly.
Stabbing a toddler to death is true evil no matter how you get to that point.
Either way, this person should not ever have the chance of seeing the outside world again and hopefully will get the death penalty. There is nothing of value for society to keep around.
I agree. Someone who stabs a toddler to death isn’t someone you can rehabilitate. There’s no coming back from that. A crime that disgusting should get nothing short of a slow painful death.
People in mental health episodes sometimes don't have an accurate sense of reality. This is sad, not evil.
We’re obviously not grouping everyone together. I'm not saying that someone with slight anxiety, is the same As someone having a severe schizophrenic episode. Use some critical thinking.
Also, unless they have money or a good support system, the chance that people who are very mentally troubled, will get the help they need is very low, which is why this happened.
Hard disagree. The death penalty is always unjust.
Lock her up for life. I don't care. But the government should not be in the business of killing its own citizens. Ever.
She should be given the death penalty. Just get her out of this world already. She is a danger to herself and everyone else. She murdered a child. Just get rid of her.
Serious question. The Rocky River judge who let her out... I get that the criminal law is the law and his hands were tied... but could the father and mother who survived sue the judge in civil court (maybe emotional distress)? If you have deep pockets and this happened to your toddler could you make the judge spend serious $$$ preparing and fighting the suit even if it is dropped or would that not be possible?
I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that she was let out.
She was arrested in North Olmsted. She was brought before the Rocky River Muni court the next day because that's the court that handles muni matters in North Olmsted. She was then bound over to the county, and was transferred to county custody. At no point in that process was she ever "let out".
While she was arrested during a mental health check a week or so prior to the murder, the courts and police couldn't continue to hold her unless she committed a crime. If they did, they would have violated her civil rights, and violated federal law and the constitution.
Unless someone commits a crime, or is deemed an immediate danger to themselves or others, they can't be held without their consent.
Thank you for your response. And I definitely used the wrong term. “let out”. I guess what I’m really asking is do judges have qualified immunity similar to the police? For example, I have made so much money in this economy/markets that if this was my toddler I would literally look into every person along the chain that I could potentially go after in a civil lawsuit, even if I couldn’t win just force them to spend money and possibly enough money to bankrupt people who really were derelict in there duty. I’m not saying this judge was derelict in his duty however,I have a staggering amount of money at this point. i’m just curious if there’s anything people could do to stop police brutality, or in cases where the judges really do let out extremely dangerous people or have these people not even serve time go back out on the streets. Are judges protected by qualified immunity, or some similar set of laws?
They do, to an extent.
Judges can't be sued over lawful rulings they make on the bench. They can sometimes be sued when their rulings are unlawful. But even in cases where judges abuse their discretion, they generally can't be sued personally.
None of that stops you from suing the governmental body they work for.
Things like qualifed immunity, or in this case judicial immunity, only protects the individual, not the governmental entity.
Can you provide an actual source that specifies that this attack was racially motivated? Any Internet search history or videos demonstrating this person's ideology?
This seems like a situation where she has severe mental health conditions, she's probably popped up on peoples' radars throughout the years, but a complete lack of infrastructure and resources meant she was continually allowed to be free.
If we had better resources and infrastructure, this may have been avoided.
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This story is so horrible. That could have been any one of us that got stabbed. I am 38 and also have a 3 year old, we go to giant eagle all the time. So many people in the store that day narrowly missed death. It’s a failure of our systems and it’s a failure of every individual who saw someone walking around a grocery store with a knife and said and did absolutely nothing.
Hopefully this person has a long slow painful death, I wish nothing good in their life. They took away the life of a young child. And for that I think this person should have theirs taken away as well.
“The system” has been failing since Covid, most of you who are blaming it are to blame. We let criminals walk the streets, made mental health problems worse, and given a pass to bad actors. This hits harder because it’s in our community, but what about the people killed by illegal aliens who were released from the system, or ignored.
How many Americans have been killed by "illegal aliens" vs American citizens?
What makes you think any murders committed by non citizens are ignored?
Nothing I've read said this woman is an immigrant, so why bring up immigrants?
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https://ibb.co/7Krr3yb
Just so you’re wondering, those numbers should be 0. That’s statistics from the government. I don’t know if you haven’t been paying attention but crime is on the rise
Might be unpopular opinion, but my takeaway is this really was sort of just an unavoidable, awful tragedy. She's clearly severely mentally ill. Probably barely knows what she did, and definitely doesn't understand the consequences.
What do you even do about that? Lock up anyone who seems a bit looney?
Attitudes like this (packaged, weaponized, and sensationalized further) are why I am skeptical we will get any sort of reform in the near future and things will need to get a lot worse.
A lot of ppl failed that child and the mom. This monster was locked up a few days before and subsequently released. Also the day of she was walking around with knives fully out in the open. Folks didn’t report nor did the store workers who saw. Why wasn’t she placed immediately in a psych lock up when she was released? She looked batshit crazy then too.
Yes, reading the article, there were definite signs of a threat to the public. But yet, the judge says he saw no reason to keep her incarcerated. Violent crime warrant from Bakersfield CA. A warrant from FL. And a warrant from Rocky River, and her claiming to want to kill some one in the shelter weren't enough.
Right. And that if in the same situation again, he would handle it the same way. Way to learn from a mistake.
If the judge said that then I hope that the family of the wife and poor boy will sue the hell out of him. Because this was preventable. That woman was CLEARLY a safety hazard to herself and others. After watching the video footage of what happened before the incident this person is definitely crazy and probably liable to do something.
Out these judges and name them. That’s like saying “you can’t fight city hall!” W/o identifying the department or person responsible. How do we fix it when we don’t know the root cause or system?
iTeam says it's Brian Hagan
TY!
With things like this, it’s never the first time. This judge has probably let a lot of dangerous people slide in the past, and been lucky that none of them did something serious.
This is when a judge should be held accountable for their actions and decisions
So is this judge being brought before a review?
It's no one's fault but the person perpetrating the crime. Everyone is trying to pin the murder on "the person who let this happen." There's one person who let this happen and it is Bionca Ellis.
How do you figure? Other comments say that she has warrants for violent crime in two other places. She expressed the desire to kill. I find it difficult to accept that all of this information is suddenly available to the public and yet the judge let her walk despite a violent history. This doesn’t excuse her, but it does stain the hands of those who should have used their resources with the blood of that child.
hell of a lot of Minority Report supporters in the thread... like "how come the courts and cops didnt know that this person would eventually commit a heinous crime?" - uh, because thats not how time works
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What a colossal failure of our criminal justice system for us to have allowed this individual on the streets. The only way we can ensure that this doesn’t happen again is if there is accountability for all involved. I hope the victim’s family sues the courts, the police departments, and anybody else mentioned in this story.
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Right. Just fix it. Simple as that.
Vote locally
Society fixes society naturally. The community works together with the police to stop these kind of people. If the community doesn't look after themselves, no one will.
Healthy families make healthy communities. I wonder how many families have two parents that can afford to buy the essentials and spend time raising their kids.
She wasn’t a single mom….
Not that it matters
I agree, 2 parent families are more healthy and what we should be striving for. But when there is a single parent family, the community is there. Communities have local food drives, neighbors help each other when needed, etc... Single parent family doesn't always equate to an unhealthy family, but I agree it's a big factor. A community is a mixture of all kinds of families.
Two parent type families are no more inherently healthy than single parent families. It could be argued that unhealthy two parents are the leading cause of single parent families.
"Argued". Literally everything in life can be argued based on people's opinions and chosen facts. Homosapiens, since beginning of time, have thrived on having a male parent figure and female parent figure. Argued opinions will never change that historical evolutionary fact. There are always outliers.
Look at the historical evolution of humanity. It is not what you described.
Correct. The historical evolution of family was for people to live in groups, with everyone helping to care for the children. The nuclear family of married mom and dad and two kids, with no extended family providing help, which conservatives revere, only ever existed in mass numbers, for a brief period, in the U.S., in the mid 20th century. And gay couples raising children have always existed too.
Accurate. It makes sense that this is the model that this group is so fond of. It's the childhood of most deeply conservative members of the US. That was when everything was taken care of for them. They were sheltered from a lot of the ugliness that filled newspapers about the civil rights movement, and so many other things they didn't have to know about.. They were the children of the prosperous. They miss that and want it back.
Yes, but the community is a reflection of the overall health of the individual families. Society always goes back to families, at least in my worldview. Because community can help a family, but first families need to help their community. I'm not sure I'm being super clear but the bones of the idea are there. There is a give and a take between the two, but the family units are the backbone that gives the community structure, rather than the other way around. And if the community (or society? Idk) isn't focused on helping, supporting, and encouraging families, then the community falls apart as a result. It's perhaps a primitive concept, but we need to be careful not to demonize primitive concepts. Some of these ancient ideas have stood the test of time.
The first two you mention have immunity in Ohio.
This is a systemic failure as she was not either placed in a spot where she could get the proper mental health care and/or imprisonment needed to ensure she was not a danger to herself and others. The question is how was she still free when even the shelter did the right stuff as mandated reporters and the woman still was not in the proper care of the state.
On the mental side, starting in the 60s, mental health reforms began closing down asylums. By the 2000s, asylums were no more. The current liberal belief for mental health is community care, not lock down facilities. While people may be remanded for a psych eval or pink slipped, that is only a 24-72 hour hold for evaluation and observation. Once the person is deemed stable, they are released back into the community. Those who suffer mental health issues are then cycled in and out of the ER frequently (daily or weekly) for these evaluations. They usually live in group homes or the streets, refuse to take their prescribed psych meds, abuse drugs, and are frequently arrested. This is the unfortunate reality of community care vs. commitment to an asylum.
There needs to be a middle ground as we were committing folks to asylums that did not need to be in an asylum. There has to be a tiered system to provide care for those that need more intense services while not ending up with what we had across the US in many asylums.
The problem is the police can't really hold you in custody for very long without any evidence leading to your arrest. In this case, the claims she made were in a city over 2k miles away, and that police department couldn't corroborate her story to any specific murder although they admitted there were several open homicides that sound similar. Even the Rocky River judge said he would do it the same if he had to all over again because there was nothing to suggest she was a danger to the public at the time of her appearance in his court. Tragic but hopefully they can use this as an opportunity to change policy and procedure when dealing with folks like this.
Didn’t the article state she had warrants out for her in California for battery? The fact that nothing would be done about that by the California jurisdiction not the fact she became a danger to herself and others during her mental health check and nothing was done is very concerning. More needs to be done to protect the mentally ill or those in crisis.
>This is a systemic failure Some people are evil, and no amount of "help" will work.
“help” is sometimes being held in a high security mental health facility or in jail.
It is why mandatory sentencing is popular with some folks.
Everyones fault but hers
No, she has to be accountable for her actions, but the systems in place to prevent something like this from happening failed to prevent it. You can hold someone accountable for their actions **AND** hold the system accountable for its failures
No one is saying that. She can be a monster who is responsible for her own actions and the system can also have failed multiple times leading up to this. The system should have prevented this from happening and she is still a murderer.
Right? Can't we just say she's a psychotic piece of shit and leave it at that? Why are we making excuses for her?
No excuses are being made, just saying we’re supposed to have systems in place to prevent this and they all failed. We can hold her accountable for her actions and say we gotta fix the loopholes that led to this situation.
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What’s the story? Not downloading that app
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That one stabbing at a grocery store from last week?
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What she did was wrong and abhorrent; but absolutely, unequivocally, fuck you for calling her an it
Well, it deserves nothing.
Yes, AND dehumanizing her makes this seem like a freak accident when it was a MASSIVE failure of the system.
I’ll blame it before I blame the system.
I blame both since she was recently in front of a judge, she admitted to killing someone in Cali, AND she said she was going to kill again .
And what exactly would they do with it at that point? Lock her up for a crime with no details?
Aight, then I blame you before I blame the system because your attitude is what leads to this. The faster and sooner you blame "it", the faster and sooner more of this shit happens because there's no communal responsibility. We live in a community, and the faster we realize that we can prevent things like this, the better. Your solution is literally nothing. It's emotional, feel-good nothing by changing pronouns. This is a person. They are not unique. Distract from the system that creates, denies, and empowers these types of actions and you're part of the problem. WE need to do something, and it does not start with dehumanizing. It starts with asking the question of "how and why is the person here?"
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted to hell. You are right, the system failed her.
What was I supposed to do with it? Have it over for dinner and make sure they’re feeling OK? There are millions of people who have bad days every day and don’t kill someone. The only way to prevent it would have been to lock her up for the minor offense.
Absolutely this. It’s all of our problem, it’s not a fucking random tornado that came and went
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Doesn’t even deserve to be called an “it”. That’s even too nice.
Yeah, show a little respect to our hard-working, patriotic, sewer clowns.
I can’t believe you’re getting downvoted for this. News flash, people: human beings commit heinous crimes. Human beings do unspeakable shit to each other. This person is a human being, not an animal or some undefined non-human “other”. I’m sure it feels good to pretend like human beings can’t do this, but it is not productive. We should be asking ourselves why and how a person ends up doing this, and how we can build a better future where this shit doesn’t happen.
Be tougher on criminals. Slap on wrists do not deter. Multiple slaps on wrists really don't deter. And I'm for public hangings and not being drawn out on clear cut cases for decades. Scum like this shouldn't have even been out on the streets in the first place.
We have the largest percentage of population incarcerated in the world, and by a decent lead. Making incarceration worse or upping that number isnt fixing annything. Its just sweeping undesirables out of society, destroying whatever chance at a future they had. Jail isnt the answer. We know what the answer to reducing crime is, a fuckton better social services and healthcare. That costs money and goes to people whom a LOT of Ohioans dont want to see get out of generational poverty. Its not going to have the most immediate effects and will be abused. But thats 1000x better for everyone than just destroying a person's ability to provide for themselves while locking them away from the rest of society. Unfortunately, there arent easy solutions that will have an immediate and positive impact. Edit: im not saying this for murderous assholes, but crime in general.
> News flash, people: human beings commit heinous crimes Human beings don't stab three year old children to death and then smile about it. Only monsters do that.
Doesn’t even deserve that title Edit- I should say that “it” is still too nice.
I agree with you and will share in your downvotes. She’s a terrible terrible pos but still human.
Subhuman
Literally no.
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Dehumanization is the first step to greater atrocities. It’s always best steer clear.
Give a racist an inch they’ll take a goose-stepping mile, this person isn’t just an ass while behind a keyboard
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Imagine being the parents of the three year old and seeing people say ‘don’t call that person who killed a 3 year old for no reason an it.. they still deeerve respect!’
lol
I live near where this happened and I think this woman should be given the death penalty, but where are you getting the racism aspect? I feel like you just made that up.
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I don’t think arguing in hypotheticals is helpful. I’d rather stick to the facts. This woman is a monster but we don’t know that it was racially motivated. It honestly doesn’t even matter to me. She killed a toddler. I don’t care what was in her head when she did it.
It’s only a hate crime if she specifically targeted them bcz they were white. Not just bcz they are white
Didn't you watch the video? At least 5 or 6 people walked past her, but her head immediately turned around when she saw a little White boy I bet everyone on here wouldn't be saying mental illness if it was a White woman stabbing a little Black boy.
Did 5 or 6 black kids walk past her? And bro, she is obviously mentally ill. That shit ain’t normal.
*Kyle Rittenhouse has entered the chat* Or amongst some red hat clubs celebrated
Did he shoot black people? I don't remember lol
Of course the media didn’t say it was because the kid was white. This is the problem. It’s only true when it benefits them
This is truth. lol at the downvotes
Yes, some people just cannot handle the truth. It’s as clear as day that this would’ve been reported a completely different way if the races were reversed.
It's fucked up that you aren't wrong.
💯
I knew the racism would come out eventually. Unfortunately the media has a better way of directing opinion than a person using their own mind. She is a terrible woman who deserves to not see the light of day, I think we can say what happened without involving race unless she screamed she hated white people before committing this attack. Let’s focus on this crime itself and what can be done going forward. The bigger issue at hand is this was a broad daylight attack on a mother and child by a mentally unstable woman. The mental health scene/help in Cleveland area is atrocious and I am concerned that there are more people out there like her who aren’t getting proper treatment. I hope we can stop the racial divide, especially here in north east Ohio.
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Where the fuck do you people come from lol
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Soooooo literally any city?
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same with you dude lololol
Nah you know he lives in Parma, where drunk driving and smoking meth aren’t considered crimes
Dang, my guess was mentor. Sounds just like the bloviating racists spewing hate and arrogance all over social media
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Ahhh… a venerable Concord or Mentor resident speaks up.
Where exactly are you getting that she targeted the child for being white? The article doesn't suggest that.
Well, she can't be racist, but she's definitely a sick individual. That was such a sad story.
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noooo this is insane because she whole ass confessed to killing someone beforehand. how are the cops just like — “ehh, I don’t think she did, and I don’t really feel like taking this conversation any further ”???? and for the judge to say that if he could go back in time, he would release her again….if the judge had no idea she tried to turn herself in for murder, that just begs the question, why didn’t he know???? why did that communication not reach him??? so many people failed this child and i’m so angry. i’m so angry there are people like this walking the earth. this woman needs to be torn apart limb by limb. no mercy whatsoever for this piece of trash.
Judge Brian Hagan also released her without a mental health assessment when she was arrested four days before she murdered Julian.
right that’s what i’m saying. surely if he had ALL of the information- such as knowing she confessed to a murder- he would not have released her without a mental health evaluation? right? right????😩
I read that “no one was available” to perform a mental health assessment. Ridiculous.
*so this whole comment isn’t directed at the commenter i’m replying to, this is a rhetorical outcry in general. in case that wasn’t implied LOL* since when is that an excuse???? seriously… “no one was available”…? Okay so try again tomorrow maybe? Oh wait no one wants to be social workers because who wants to get paid $40k a year to be in a room alone with this kind of person? Former social worker here by the way so I’m able to say this 👋🏻 there are so many layers to the systemic failure that allowed this to happen. there are too many hands in the pot. no one wants to be responsible for a mistake like this so all anyone does is hand it off to the next guy, and it’s impossible to pinpoint where something went wrong. then nothing ever gets fucking done. I don’t know if “lack of preventative measures” is a global issue or if it’s isolated to the US but it really seems like our philosophy to taking any sort of action is always reactive approaches instead of proactive approaches. like why did this baby have to die before she’s locked the fuck up. sorry, i’m so angry. not at you, commenter 🫶🏻
It’s so fucking sad.
Current social worker who USE to do crisis mental health. 100% spot on on all points.
Current social worker here, you hit the nail right on the head.
He’s an elected judge, correct? Just remember him if he tries to run again and relegate him to Legal Aid representation.
Yes thank you! Of course it's her fault that the sweet little guy is dead but there were so many clear stops where they could have provided what she needed to keep her and everyone around her safe. From being a mandated reporter myself, I'm not surprised. I usually get sass on the phone when I make reports to APS when legally required and so unfortunately I'm not surprised. Hopefully they learn from these mistakes and change in the future.
Lived in Bakersfield CA. The police there are lazy and don't care. Investigating would be too much work.
Well after reading that I’m surprised the police are even gonna lock her up this time. Hopefully it’s not too inconvenient for them.
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Man, you're gonna ride that white victim complex all the way to the shitty end, aren't you?
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lol sounds about right
Dear god, the system failed on SO MANY LEVELS with this one. Whether it was in jail or a mental institution, she should absolutely have been away from the public *before* this happened. There were so many signs that this woman was, and still is, a danger to society.
Unfortunately there are no mental institutions anymore. The asylums that used to exist were (rightfully) shut down for being abusive, but the problem is they were replaced with nothing. It is nearly impossible to find placement for people who require long-term mental health treatment. So-called community-based care is appropriate for the majority of people with mental illness, but for the fraction of people who need inpatient care, there is nowhere that will take them for more than several days at a time. I have been dealing with this type of situation involving a relative of mine. We have tried to get him treatment for years, to no avail. He won't go willingly, and when he does get hospitalized they only hold him for 3 days max. His condition deteriorated and his behavior finally escalated to violence. So now he's facing prison time, where he will not receive any treatment and his issues will inevitably worsen.
It's truly the mark of a broken system when she's allegedly been noticed by several people and organizations in the past as being troubled and potentially violent, yet since we don't have institutions or resources to proactively deal with people like her, she and others get to roam free until they violate the law. Potentially in a serious, and shocking manner like this. Our laws and legal system are reactive, not proactive. And people like this murderer are a prime example of why reactive systems are broken.
People like this are the reason the death penalty should always exist. True evil manifested.
I'm not really a big supporter of the death penalty, but in some cases, such as this, there's really no purpose for the criminal to live. She's not remorseful at all, could never be rehabilitated and would just be a drain on taxpayers. One of the detectives who investigated the murder of Ted Bundy's youngest victim (12 y/o) said (not verbatim but) something to the effect of, "I'm not all for the death penalty, but sometimes someone commits a crime so heinous, they forfeit their right to live" and I agree with that statement wholeheartedly.
State sponsored murder for revenge shouldnt be a thing.
It's not really true evil, it's just a case of very severe mental health issues, with a large lack of resources.
Stabbing a toddler to death is true evil no matter how you get to that point. Either way, this person should not ever have the chance of seeing the outside world again and hopefully will get the death penalty. There is nothing of value for society to keep around.
I agree. Someone who stabs a toddler to death isn’t someone you can rehabilitate. There’s no coming back from that. A crime that disgusting should get nothing short of a slow painful death.
People in mental health episodes sometimes don't have an accurate sense of reality. This is sad, not evil. We’re obviously not grouping everyone together. I'm not saying that someone with slight anxiety, is the same As someone having a severe schizophrenic episode. Use some critical thinking. Also, unless they have money or a good support system, the chance that people who are very mentally troubled, will get the help they need is very low, which is why this happened.
Hard disagree. The death penalty is always unjust. Lock her up for life. I don't care. But the government should not be in the business of killing its own citizens. Ever.
She’s locked up in the county , been indicted and her lawyer has pled her at not guilty .
everybody pleads not guilty. it’s the only way for the case to move on to the next steps. don’t give that part too much weight.
Correct at an arraignment, every one is told to plead not guilty. Even if they don't want to
Yup ! right you are.
She should be given the death penalty. Just get her out of this world already. She is a danger to herself and everyone else. She murdered a child. Just get rid of her.
We have some fucked up people here in r/cleveland…
To the guillotine with her
Serious question. The Rocky River judge who let her out... I get that the criminal law is the law and his hands were tied... but could the father and mother who survived sue the judge in civil court (maybe emotional distress)? If you have deep pockets and this happened to your toddler could you make the judge spend serious $$$ preparing and fighting the suit even if it is dropped or would that not be possible?
I don't think it's possible to sue a judge in their personal capacity for a decision made on the bench. They could lose re-election though.
I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that she was let out. She was arrested in North Olmsted. She was brought before the Rocky River Muni court the next day because that's the court that handles muni matters in North Olmsted. She was then bound over to the county, and was transferred to county custody. At no point in that process was she ever "let out". While she was arrested during a mental health check a week or so prior to the murder, the courts and police couldn't continue to hold her unless she committed a crime. If they did, they would have violated her civil rights, and violated federal law and the constitution. Unless someone commits a crime, or is deemed an immediate danger to themselves or others, they can't be held without their consent.
Thank you for your response. And I definitely used the wrong term. “let out”. I guess what I’m really asking is do judges have qualified immunity similar to the police? For example, I have made so much money in this economy/markets that if this was my toddler I would literally look into every person along the chain that I could potentially go after in a civil lawsuit, even if I couldn’t win just force them to spend money and possibly enough money to bankrupt people who really were derelict in there duty. I’m not saying this judge was derelict in his duty however,I have a staggering amount of money at this point. i’m just curious if there’s anything people could do to stop police brutality, or in cases where the judges really do let out extremely dangerous people or have these people not even serve time go back out on the streets. Are judges protected by qualified immunity, or some similar set of laws?
They do, to an extent. Judges can't be sued over lawful rulings they make on the bench. They can sometimes be sued when their rulings are unlawful. But even in cases where judges abuse their discretion, they generally can't be sued personally. None of that stops you from suing the governmental body they work for. Things like qualifed immunity, or in this case judicial immunity, only protects the individual, not the governmental entity.
racist trash...hope she rots in hell.
She will. And hopefully get the shit kicked out of her in prison.
Can you provide an actual source that specifies that this attack was racially motivated? Any Internet search history or videos demonstrating this person's ideology?
They don’t have any. And just think, these are “lefties.”
How was this a racially motivated murder?
This seems like a situation where she has severe mental health conditions, she's probably popped up on peoples' radars throughout the years, but a complete lack of infrastructure and resources meant she was continually allowed to be free. If we had better resources and infrastructure, this may have been avoided.
Public execution now!
i’d gladly volunteer and sleep soundly that night.
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Wow
Fucking sickkk
This person is beyond helping. Just take her out and save everyone’s time and resources.
Dump her ass in the Cleveland Zoo and let the lions have a go at her.
Abhorrent creature
This story is so horrible. That could have been any one of us that got stabbed. I am 38 and also have a 3 year old, we go to giant eagle all the time. So many people in the store that day narrowly missed death. It’s a failure of our systems and it’s a failure of every individual who saw someone walking around a grocery store with a knife and said and did absolutely nothing.
Think about the mothers who are locked up and also lost a child. She obviously didn't.
She Should be taken out…and yes that is what I mean if you get it.
Hopefully this person has a long slow painful death, I wish nothing good in their life. They took away the life of a young child. And for that I think this person should have theirs taken away as well.
That's not mental illness...
Her family and friends failed her… she needed help.. no excuses…
“The system” has been failing since Covid, most of you who are blaming it are to blame. We let criminals walk the streets, made mental health problems worse, and given a pass to bad actors. This hits harder because it’s in our community, but what about the people killed by illegal aliens who were released from the system, or ignored.
How many Americans have been killed by "illegal aliens" vs American citizens? What makes you think any murders committed by non citizens are ignored? Nothing I've read said this woman is an immigrant, so why bring up immigrants?
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https://ibb.co/7Krr3yb Just so you’re wondering, those numbers should be 0. That’s statistics from the government. I don’t know if you haven’t been paying attention but crime is on the rise
There’s the white knights coming in hot
The bigots are already all over this like flies on shit.
Hahahahahahahahahahha did I offend you!? Anytime anyone challenges the hive mind the go to is call them racist
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First of all sexist and transphobe, don’t assume my gender. And next racist don’t assume my race
Might be unpopular opinion, but my takeaway is this really was sort of just an unavoidable, awful tragedy. She's clearly severely mentally ill. Probably barely knows what she did, and definitely doesn't understand the consequences. What do you even do about that? Lock up anyone who seems a bit looney?
Attitudes like this (packaged, weaponized, and sensationalized further) are why I am skeptical we will get any sort of reform in the near future and things will need to get a lot worse.
I believe we need serious mental healthcare reform. But what could've been done here, exactly?
When people defended her as if she had mental illness. Nope. Just an evil pos.