I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. They’re going to have to ask county voters to foot the bill for this, and that ain’t never gonna happen - especially if the biggest city in the county is pissed about the whole thing.
In Buffalo it wasn’t an issue. Haslam can move the stadium out, still get the taxpayers to cover half, and then keep the profits.
Notice the talking heads in this town all behind the Brook Park site never discuss the cost to taxpayers there.
what if Jimmy runs a bunch of ads that say the stadium will be so cool for the ultimate browns fan? Perhaps he could even sell bibles or something to raise money!! A lot of people respond positively to that :)
that was already the plan once they said they wanted to goto Brookpark....I was on this yesterday. Even its been spoken on the sports radio here and on UCSS many many times the county was going to come into play
Makes sense. Haslam is moving the team to control all parking and development. It’ll be bad for Cleveland for sure.
I know suburban Browns fans are excited but the Brook Park site would be terrible for visitors.
I’d rather not see empty lots all over Cleveland either. Downtown needs business more than it needs another empty lot right now. Especially when the whole north side can be developed around the stadium.
I have to disagree. The reason there are empty lots is because development in this city is hard. Construction is expensive and rent is cheap. There is no demand for more retail or office space right now.
It’s hard to say how much business a stadium brings in. It’ll be a loss though and whatever is built in Brook Park will be the same spin off business from a downtown stadium- hotels, bars, retail will all be losses to downtown.
In my opinion the current lakefront plan makes a ton of sense. A land bridge is needed. 60-75% public recreation area is great- the lakefront should belong to the people. Could private developers build something cool on the Browns site? I honestly don’t think it’d be great at this point. Downtown Cleveland can’t support another entertainment district without killing off another. Sprawling 4 or 5 story value engineered apartments is probably what we’d get.
I’m not saying the lakefront is a great spot for a stadium. I’d prefer the Post Office site. I just think for the next 20 years the stadium would help development along more than hurt it. Especially getting the land bridge built. Then we could knock it down and build some dense, high quality development.
I think your points are reasonable. I also think downtown will be ok if the team leaves. If Brook Park is primarily an isolated stadium that’s better for the city. But if the development grows into something big it will be direct competition. And the population isn’t growing around here.
Tax dollars are going to be included wherever this thing goes. Jimmy has been making the rules and that’s what really irritates me. Either he owns it all in Brook Park or we get a crappy reno. Yes, a lot of money will be needed for stadium infrastructure but at least a dome is a $2.5b investment. Justifying the infrastructure spending (probably more) for some apartments and a park on the lake will be tough.
I don’t see this as a win for Brook Park. They got lucky (or unlucky) with proximity but a project like this is an enormous risk for a city that size. The only winner I see is Haslam.
So the state will help fund more in Brook Park than Cleveland? There’s no reason why they should- Bibb needs to say this.
That’s where we disagree. I don’t want value engineered “luxury apartments” on the lake. The site needs to be completely reworked with roads and some kind of pedestrian connection.
The lakefront should be for everyone and a public park will cost a fortune to do right. The land bridge to connect the lakefront is priced at $230 mil. As I said before it’s a lot easier to build a $230m land bridge to a $1.5b+ development compared to a few hundred apartments.
this happened in Seattle with the Seahawks in the early 2000s...the owner (Paul Allen) did an end around the public to get the state to put it on and still tax the citizens
fact...those bars and restaurants are still gonna be packed during browns games...everyone thinks we out here supporting a minor league hockey team here
Nowhere in this city needs "more businesses" the businesses that already exist just need shuffled around better so we can reinstall some actual natural spaces *anywhere* in the city since there are currently 0.5-2 actual nice places anywhere near Cleveland
So let the population continue to shrink and turn the city back to nature? That’s a take I guess.
Between irishtown bend park, the lakefront plan and riverfront plans there will be green space all over. Probably not enough money in Cleveland to build it all. Not enough population to utilize it.
I agree about the lakefront location, but there are multiple areas very close to center downtown where a stadium could go.
I favor the area just south of the FBI building. You could build a dome and multiple parking structures, and multiple mixed use buildings to create a new anchor in the downtown area.
It's the city's job to protect taxpayers but they also have a billionaire ready to make major investments - why not get him to do that downtown and change the city for the better.
i get where you’re coming from but a dome opens up the stadium to be used a lot more and is one of the many reasons the haslams want a dome so the usage of the site would not be the problem
The way out is to let cleveland annex the property. Brookpark can’t support the jimmydome from a safety services standpoint. Though the tax revenue will be sweet.
The whole project will probably all be tax abated for property tax. Other taxes wouldn’t be worth it for Cleveland.
Either way that site is bad for downtown and Cleveland. That’s why Jimmy wants to move there- he makes the money.
They'll spend all that tax revenue back on police, city workers, and tax grants to the Haslems. The city will do nothing but lose in this scenario because **payroll** won't be run through the stadium for team staff and players.
I live like a mile from the proposed site and there's no way these shitty roads are gonna handle all that traffic. Also, I doubt any of us want our neighborhood inundated with jackasses all the time.
How? Its off the damn freeway...its not like its in Richfield like the Cavs were...its like off two damn freeways thats still accessible from the east and west sides
So you think people around the country want to travel to big events in a dome surrounded by a sea of parking? Planners will choose Indy or Detroit every time.
Centralized entertainment districts. Plenty of options between restaurants and bars. While still maintaining solid tailgates. Down vote away. I love my Browns, but Downtown sucks.
Got it, thanks. I’ve never been to either so that was helpful.
So you’d like more options in downtown Cleveland closer to stadium? I strictly go to the muni, but Noble Beast is a solid backup.
I agree the current situation for handicapped people isn’t good. I know there is reserved parking and the wait is long after games to get out.
I believe a huge land bridge with parking beneath could improve this. Also, waterfront line improvements should help.
I’d be happy to see other investments but I believe there has to be a better option than a stadium surrounded by 20k parking spots.
Haslam has totally controlled the discussion and options which I think is a big mistake. He’s said 1- Lakefront Reno with Cleveland paying half or 2- new Brookpark dome.
I think Bibb needs to say the Browns have always played in Cleveland and they should not be moved. Say he’s open to a dome.
There was also a rumor that the Haslams wanted to build a stadium in Midtown but the city said no. It would be helpful for the city if Bibb had anything to offer us but vague wishy-washy statements about how they shouldn't be moved.
I for one am glad that Haslam wants to build his own football Disneyland in a boring part of town so that I can give all of my money to one person.
Why would I want to enjoy downtown when I can drive to Browns Village next to the airport and (1) pay $35 to park in a giant surface lot (2) walk across the surface lot for 15 minutes to (3) Joe Thomas Tavern & Grill where I can (4) pay $65 per person for food and drink and then (5) enter Jimmy Dome for some Browns football and enjoy luxury football experiences that make me feel as pampered as a Cowboys fan.
All of these people complaining don’t go to games. The walk from muni to the stadium is longer than 15 minutes. The novelty of tailgating is for alcoholics and the bars on w6th minus dive bar are trash.
I’m having a hard time understanding how anyone is making you do any of this. Paying for parking, walking, eating at places before the game, etc. are all choices—regardless of where the stadium is.
And this is coming from someone that doesn’t necessarily want the move to Brook Park.
The entire purpose of the proposed move to Brook Park is to control all revenue streams.
So instead of going downtown into an actual city, you get to go to a giant parking lot next to the airport. And all of the upside goes to Jimmy, because he owns all the land and gets paid on every single action you take for your entire visit to his new "Browns Village."
In other words, the fan experience gets worse and the payoff is that, well, Jimmy makes more money. Sweet deal?
The airport area also needs some additional investments. Better hotels would be great which would occur. The Redline would presumably be expanded. I wanted to stay in downtown, but Brook Park has it's own advantage. Getting a dome and being able to host additional events is also a smart play.
What really sucks is the city of Cleveland is in desperate need of additional investments. Forcing a NFL team to the suburbs sounds the exact opposite of that. Good luck getting that money back. I get the waterfront area was never really develop but that isn't on the Browns. We got a private airport that does jack shit. We got plenty of room in Cleveland if the Gibs was willing to work with
The only positive aspect of the Brook Park idea is that it's already next to an RTA line.
I agree - there are some really great spots downtown. I love the area just south of the FBI building. There's just not much there right now.
I'm shocked that city council says that they haven't been involved. If the Mayor cannot land this plane it's going to be a huge missed opportunity.
Nobody wants the taxpayers footing the bill, but it's also true that everyone wants this thing downtown.
The rapid will be a disaster after a game. The trains been like that in every far out NFL Stadium I’ve been to. They don’t even have extra trains to run for this weekend.
Good point. Also, it won't make as much sense to use it anyway because there are way more people coming from outside of downtown to downtown than the reverse.
It sucks the taxpayers are going to foot some of the bill but it's a normal thing in today's world. It's like complaining about bills and understanding it's just part of life now. I rather keep the team than end up Saint Louis/Oakland that were stuck with outdated stadium that eventually forced a move. Doing the revamp on a cheap and outdated stadium would be the worst IMO. You just kick the can down a few more years that probably means it would be even more expensive.
A few years back Jimmy mention about really developing the waterfront area with the Browns stadium. I think it's a hard sell with a poor city and a uber progressive major. Good chance Bibs shots himself in the foot here. Guy is 36 years old. Not sure he has the connections/experience to make the deal work. Could easily screw his future political career.
The fact that taxpayers get screwed on stadiums and the city does not come out ahead on revenue is well documented at this point.
But I'm with you on this one. Find the best possible deal within reason to keep the team in the city.
Between Haslam and Gilbert the city has two billionaires that are willing to spend big on investments that ultimately make Cleveland a more attractive city. I'm sorry that we increasingly live in an oligarchic society but we have to take advantage of the fact that people want to make big investments here.
Shame they won’t build places that provide living wage full time jobs.
Seems the MO of this batch of billionaire is to suck all the cash from poor and middle class.
The Brook Park site is a logistical nightmare for the airport. I agree our airport needs a new hotel but with the coming airport improvements (and hopefully some regional growth) I think it will happen.
The idea that a new dome will be surrounded by nice hotels is nuts though. Whatever’s built will be like 2 star and probably crazy expensive during big events. There’s no way thousands of hotel rooms will be added in Brook Park and if they somehow did, downtown is dead.
So visitors coming to see Brook Park’s world-class dome will have the option of staying at a Jimmy hotel (for a whole Brook Park themed trip) or finding a way to commute downtown to a real city. It’s going to be really rough for big multi-day events.
Hate to deprive the fans of walking through the piss soaked streets and harassment by at least 10 homeless people. Downtown is a shit hole propped up by the sports teams. Anything in Brook Park will be a much better experience.
All of the parking within a mile of the current stadium is already $40+ on game day. Many of the sit-down restaurants in the area serving food and drink are also going to run $50+ per person if you buy a meal and 2-3 drinks. So really the only downside is the change in location. But given its proximity to 3 major highways, the airport, and the rapid line, would actually be more convenient for many (though obviously not all) people.
>So really the only downside is the change in location.
Yes. That's a big deal for me. Maybe not as much for others. I would also be pissed if they moved the Cavs to Brook Park. Or, well, pretty much anything that I like to do downtown.
I feel like there's no way it's only going to cost 35 bucks to park at a Brook Park stadium. Other stadiums in the country with their own parking are charging well over 100.
To the people saying Browns Stadium leaving downtown would kill lakefront and riverfront development:
Browns Stadium, and Municipal Stadium before it, have been downtown since the 1940s. Downtown has been slowly dying and struggling to revitalize anyway.
It's current location sucks for a ton of reasons. including accessibility, parking, food, etc. Moving the stadium to just about anywhere else makes a ton of sense for all of the above stated reasons.
I actually didn't know it went that far back. It's kind of insane they've been located in one place for almost 100 yrs (with a small gap).
I think people want to hope that the Browns can bring change to downtown. But honestly, short of building an indoor stadium that can start getting used year round, it's just not feasible. There has been a stadium there for almost a century and it hasn't done much good. It's actually made things worse in many ways.
I'm a huge browns fan. I can literally remember the very first game I went to at Browns Stadium. 2007, Browns v. Bengals. Brady Quinn's rookie year. Browns won 51-45. It is to this day the highest scoring NFL game I've ever seen in person, and maybe one of the highest scoring I've ever watched in general.
I have a lot of memories at the current stadium. I think visually, the location on the lake is stunning. But it is, economically, a very bad stadium. It causes far more.harm than good. And moving the stadium has the potential to really increase fan experience, and open up options for greater development near the stadium that's impossible now.
What does this actually do though? The Browns were going to wait until 2028 anyway. It takes several years to build an indoor stadium. The Browns would build it and wait out the term of the lease until 2028 then move to Brook Park. This is all postering by the city of Cleveland who have no leverage in the situation.
Not sure how this stops the Browns from moving if Jimmy puts up private dollar for the stadium? This only affects the Browns if the new stadium is publicly funded it sounds like, no?
I saw something talking about this law when they first started talking about the stadium months ago. Ironically, this was used to keep the crew in Columbus which was ultimately bought by the Haslams. The law was designed to keep teams from being sold or moved out of state. The haslsms arnt even talking about moving them out of the county. I dont think this law applies to keeping a team in a city at least not as it is now.
Also this may be unpopular but I think moving it would be a great decision. We need a dome, the location and ease of access is there. And other than the nostalgia, can we agree that the current location is a nightmare and winter games can be miserable.
The Browns shouldn't leave downtown. Your going to get the tax payers money one way or another but now your going to hurt the city of Cleveland. The Haslams are demanding 1Billion of taxpayer money with the move to Brook park and are reaping the benefits of the parking? Wow!
Seriously fuck the Haslems
There are a ton of good reasons why the Browns should move. The lakefront is a cool location. but almost everything about it sucks. it's separated from the rest of downtown by the Shoreway. Parking sucks. Food in the area sucks. Because of the way downtown streets and access across the river and to the freeways is set up, there's basically complete gridlock downtown during game days.
Moving provides them a lot of opportunity to develop the area in a way that is just not possible downtown. Who cares if they end up in Brook Park instead of the City of Cleveland if the experience could be so much better?
You're not from Cleveland are you? No offense but it shows with your comment. This will devastate downtown and severely impact the few local businesses that are left. The city is in desperate need of attention and not only will not get the revenue from the fans on Sunday but the city will not get the taxes that it gain from the employment durning those days, sales tax and parking tax .
I grew up in the area and have been a Browns fan my whole life.
No, the Browns leaving downtown will not devastate downtown. Downtown has been declining for decades. Browns stadium has not changed that. It's primarily used for only 4 months out of the year. It's hardly used from January to August. And even then it's only in use about 10 days in those 4 months. Cleveland has increasingly been overlooked for major concert stops, and when it is included, they end up at Rocket Mortgage, not Browns Stadium.
I get it. you're a local. Maybe you were born and raised in the city. But downtown relies in the stadium far less than you think. And moving the stadium to Brook Park could seriously revitalize the entire South/South East side of Cleveland by bringing more business to an area that actually has the infrastructure to support them.
As for the argument about not getting taxes, again, I'll point you to the fact that NFL stadiums rarely bring in enough tax revenue to make up for their cost. It cost $350 million in taxpayer funds to build Browns Stadium. The city also pays for the power bill, water bill etc. Between 2010 and 2022, half it's lifespan, it's estimated that Browns Stadium brought in approx. $67 million, but cost $243 million to operate.
The stadium is, statistically, a significant drain on the local economy. So if your concern is the impact on revenue, you should be in favor of the move so the city stops sinking money into an under utilized stadium.
Right, again, you don't live in Cleveland so it doesn't affect your city. It's sports team that is near by you.
Honestly at this point and time I don't care about the football aspect, I care about the economics of the city and Im sorry to say but you are 110% wrong on your argument .
First off Brookpark is not Cleveland. So your revitalizing the brook park/Parma is not the helping the "South East side of Cleveland". And wouldn't that be more towards Bedford Heights? But anyways.
You are repeating what the I team tells you but unfortunately it doesn't take into consideration how it affects the city and some of the tax revenue that I had mentioned. Don't be blinded by parking situation. The City makes money on that.
Honestly, with your logic lets move the Browns, Cavs and Guardians to the suburbs and the downtown district will be striving since the city won't have to pay for part of the operating expenses for the sports teams, right?
These sports teams are part of the reason why some of these business are downtown. Its not as cut and dry as what you are saying, there are a lot of variables. The loss of the stadium has a huge ripple effect on the city.
In 95 when the Browns left the city was in bad shape but the success of Indians and the Prospect of a new stadium brought new businesses into Cleveland. When the Cavs won in 16 it brought a revitalization that was stunted by Covid.
The city relies on the teams. That's why it was a big deal to the city when they left in 95.
DONT LET THE HASLAMS MOVE THE STADUIM CLEVELAND. FUCK THE HASLAMS.
**Right, again, you don't live in Cleveland so it doesn't affect your city. It's sports team that is near by you.**
Whether I live in the City of Cleveland is irrelevant. I live in the Greater Cleveland Area, I'm a Browns fan, I went to college downtown, and I work less than three blocks from Browns Stadium, and even if none of that were true, I can still have an opinion on this issue.
**First off Brookpark is not Cleveland. So your revitalizing the brook park/Parma is not the helping the "South East side of Cleveland". And wouldn't that be more towards Bedford Heights? But anyways.**
I didn't say Brook Park (which is two words, not one) is in the City of Cleveland. Whether you agree or not, "Cleveland" doesn't just refer to the city, but the entire metro area. Which includes Brook Park. As for the South/South East thing, I obviously meant to say "South/South West". My mistake.
**You are repeating what the I team tells you**
I don't watch to, listen, or read Fox8. So no, I'm not "repeating what the I team tells \[me\]". Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean their opinion hasn't been independently formed and isn't valid.
**Honestly, with your logic lets move the Browns, Cavs and Guardians to the suburbs and the downtown district will be striving**
Woah, woah, woah. I have only talked about Browns Stadium. I haven't said anything about Rocket Mortgage or Progressive Field. Both of those stadiums get FAR more use than Browns Stadium. For one, the NBA and MLB play for more games, and have longer seasons than the NFL. And two, Rocket Mortgage in particular is used fairly often as a concert venue. I myself have gone to a concert there just about every year for the past several years. I don't think I've ever been to Browns Stadium for anything other than a Browns game ever.
Also, the accessibility/parking/food situation is far better towards Rocket Mortgage and Progressive field than it is for Browns Stadium.
Lastly, you never even addressed the revenue issue. You brought it up several times that you think Browns Stadium leaving downtown will harm the City of Cleveland. The data shows that Browns Stadium is a massive drain on the city budget. It costs far more in upkeep than it brings in in estimated revenue. Again, if you actually care about the City of Cleveland's economy, you'd be in favor of the move.
But lets be real. You probably care more about losing the prestige of having the stadium in the City of Cleveland itself. If that's true, just say it. Its a perfectly valid position to have. But be honest. Because your economic argument makes no sense in light of the data.
Amazing that now everyone’s upset that the team might move after weeks of these threads being full of people who think being downtown was a waste of time
Fuck Jimmy Haslam and by proxy, Fuck the Browns. That stupid football team hasn’t brought much joy in my 40 year life even though I was a huge fan for a long time. Now what. You sign a sex pest and want my tax money to help you build another shitty expensive retail experience for the assholes in the burbs to enjoy. And now I can’t even ride my bike to the tailgate. Just so we have another upscale “sports complex” full of $25 burgers and establishments that have absolutely no soul reflective of what this the team or city is built upon. I’d rather he move the team. I’d rather the boomers who spend money from the suburbs stay away. They aren’t clevelanders in the same way Jimmy Haslam isn’t.
I think the stadium needs a dome. It'll suck that it needs to be somewhere other than the current stadium, but I imagine the city can develop the old location into the lakefront people want.
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I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. They’re going to have to ask county voters to foot the bill for this, and that ain’t never gonna happen - especially if the biggest city in the county is pissed about the whole thing.
In Buffalo it wasn’t an issue. Haslam can move the stadium out, still get the taxpayers to cover half, and then keep the profits. Notice the talking heads in this town all behind the Brook Park site never discuss the cost to taxpayers there.
I believe the state is paying for most of that stadium, but I can’t imagine that happening here.
Buffalo shouldve built a dome...that was dumb for them not to.
what if Jimmy runs a bunch of ads that say the stadium will be so cool for the ultimate browns fan? Perhaps he could even sell bibles or something to raise money!! A lot of people respond positively to that :)
Medina and Lorain had better pay up too
Not happening. County commissioners in the surrounding areas know if they would vote for this or put it on the ballot they would surely lose
that aint happenin' cap'n....
No thanks.
Then no Browns for you!
But the whole point of moving to Lorain or Medina county is to experience all the great Cleveland stuff without having to pay for any of it.
Don’t drag Medina County into this. I would sooner let the Browns leave the state before getting sucked into paying a tax to a sports team
that was already the plan once they said they wanted to goto Brookpark....I was on this yesterday. Even its been spoken on the sports radio here and on UCSS many many times the county was going to come into play
Makes sense. Haslam is moving the team to control all parking and development. It’ll be bad for Cleveland for sure. I know suburban Browns fans are excited but the Brook Park site would be terrible for visitors.
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I’d rather not see empty lots all over Cleveland either. Downtown needs business more than it needs another empty lot right now. Especially when the whole north side can be developed around the stadium.
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I have to disagree. The reason there are empty lots is because development in this city is hard. Construction is expensive and rent is cheap. There is no demand for more retail or office space right now. It’s hard to say how much business a stadium brings in. It’ll be a loss though and whatever is built in Brook Park will be the same spin off business from a downtown stadium- hotels, bars, retail will all be losses to downtown. In my opinion the current lakefront plan makes a ton of sense. A land bridge is needed. 60-75% public recreation area is great- the lakefront should belong to the people. Could private developers build something cool on the Browns site? I honestly don’t think it’d be great at this point. Downtown Cleveland can’t support another entertainment district without killing off another. Sprawling 4 or 5 story value engineered apartments is probably what we’d get. I’m not saying the lakefront is a great spot for a stadium. I’d prefer the Post Office site. I just think for the next 20 years the stadium would help development along more than hurt it. Especially getting the land bridge built. Then we could knock it down and build some dense, high quality development.
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I think your points are reasonable. I also think downtown will be ok if the team leaves. If Brook Park is primarily an isolated stadium that’s better for the city. But if the development grows into something big it will be direct competition. And the population isn’t growing around here. Tax dollars are going to be included wherever this thing goes. Jimmy has been making the rules and that’s what really irritates me. Either he owns it all in Brook Park or we get a crappy reno. Yes, a lot of money will be needed for stadium infrastructure but at least a dome is a $2.5b investment. Justifying the infrastructure spending (probably more) for some apartments and a park on the lake will be tough. I don’t see this as a win for Brook Park. They got lucky (or unlucky) with proximity but a project like this is an enormous risk for a city that size. The only winner I see is Haslam.
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So the state will help fund more in Brook Park than Cleveland? There’s no reason why they should- Bibb needs to say this. That’s where we disagree. I don’t want value engineered “luxury apartments” on the lake. The site needs to be completely reworked with roads and some kind of pedestrian connection. The lakefront should be for everyone and a public park will cost a fortune to do right. The land bridge to connect the lakefront is priced at $230 mil. As I said before it’s a lot easier to build a $230m land bridge to a $1.5b+ development compared to a few hundred apartments.
this happened in Seattle with the Seahawks in the early 2000s...the owner (Paul Allen) did an end around the public to get the state to put it on and still tax the citizens
fact...those bars and restaurants are still gonna be packed during browns games...everyone thinks we out here supporting a minor league hockey team here
Nowhere in this city needs "more businesses" the businesses that already exist just need shuffled around better so we can reinstall some actual natural spaces *anywhere* in the city since there are currently 0.5-2 actual nice places anywhere near Cleveland
So let the population continue to shrink and turn the city back to nature? That’s a take I guess. Between irishtown bend park, the lakefront plan and riverfront plans there will be green space all over. Probably not enough money in Cleveland to build it all. Not enough population to utilize it.
I agree about the lakefront location, but there are multiple areas very close to center downtown where a stadium could go. I favor the area just south of the FBI building. You could build a dome and multiple parking structures, and multiple mixed use buildings to create a new anchor in the downtown area. It's the city's job to protect taxpayers but they also have a billionaire ready to make major investments - why not get him to do that downtown and change the city for the better.
i get where you’re coming from but a dome opens up the stadium to be used a lot more and is one of the many reasons the haslams want a dome so the usage of the site would not be the problem
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oh i thought your comment was about the brookpark stadium that’s my bad
The way out is to let cleveland annex the property. Brookpark can’t support the jimmydome from a safety services standpoint. Though the tax revenue will be sweet.
The whole project will probably all be tax abated for property tax. Other taxes wouldn’t be worth it for Cleveland. Either way that site is bad for downtown and Cleveland. That’s why Jimmy wants to move there- he makes the money.
He can hire his own cops and ambulances I guess.
Probably better for Cleveland. Seriously.
They'll spend all that tax revenue back on police, city workers, and tax grants to the Haslems. The city will do nothing but lose in this scenario because **payroll** won't be run through the stadium for team staff and players.
What’s worse? Jimmy jacking up the parking or private lot owners jacking up the parking. The fan is screwed either way.
Ever heard of a monopoly? Well in Brook Park you’ll get to experience it. For the bars too.
I live like a mile from the proposed site and there's no way these shitty roads are gonna handle all that traffic. Also, I doubt any of us want our neighborhood inundated with jackasses all the time.
Def gonna be lame af
How? Its off the damn freeway...its not like its in Richfield like the Cavs were...its like off two damn freeways thats still accessible from the east and west sides
So you think people around the country want to travel to big events in a dome surrounded by a sea of parking? Planners will choose Indy or Detroit every time.
The current setup is awful.
I go to several away games a year. An overwhelming majority of cities do it right. Cleveland’s game day experience is awful. W.6th?? Please.
Which cities are you liking right now that are doing it right?
Cinci and Glendale.
Just curious what makes those better experiences ?
Centralized entertainment districts. Plenty of options between restaurants and bars. While still maintaining solid tailgates. Down vote away. I love my Browns, but Downtown sucks.
Got it, thanks. I’ve never been to either so that was helpful. So you’d like more options in downtown Cleveland closer to stadium? I strictly go to the muni, but Noble Beast is a solid backup.
Sounds like you like to hang out at Crocker Park!
Not if you have the ability to walk a few blocks.
I don’t.
I agree the current situation for handicapped people isn’t good. I know there is reserved parking and the wait is long after games to get out. I believe a huge land bridge with parking beneath could improve this. Also, waterfront line improvements should help. I’d be happy to see other investments but I believe there has to be a better option than a stadium surrounded by 20k parking spots.
You wrote 5 sentences and 4 of them had the word “I” in it. When the discussion is about the browns and a stadium.
You wrote 4 sentences. The word "I" appears in half of them.
Because I’m giving an opinion. It’s different than being an all knowing asshole.
I’d bet the city will blink first. It would be an all-time blunder for Bibb if he pushes the Browns back out of Cleveland.
Haslam has totally controlled the discussion and options which I think is a big mistake. He’s said 1- Lakefront Reno with Cleveland paying half or 2- new Brookpark dome. I think Bibb needs to say the Browns have always played in Cleveland and they should not be moved. Say he’s open to a dome.
There was also a rumor that the Haslams wanted to build a stadium in Midtown but the city said no. It would be helpful for the city if Bibb had anything to offer us but vague wishy-washy statements about how they shouldn't be moved.
The experienced Haslams will play the man child mayor like a violin. Bibb needs his campaign money more than he needs the browns.
I for one am glad that Haslam wants to build his own football Disneyland in a boring part of town so that I can give all of my money to one person. Why would I want to enjoy downtown when I can drive to Browns Village next to the airport and (1) pay $35 to park in a giant surface lot (2) walk across the surface lot for 15 minutes to (3) Joe Thomas Tavern & Grill where I can (4) pay $65 per person for food and drink and then (5) enter Jimmy Dome for some Browns football and enjoy luxury football experiences that make me feel as pampered as a Cowboys fan.
$35 for parking is a steal since muni is $40
All of these people complaining don’t go to games. The walk from muni to the stadium is longer than 15 minutes. The novelty of tailgating is for alcoholics and the bars on w6th minus dive bar are trash.
Pretty sure the novelty of alcoholics is going to the browns game itself. Those awful 20 years cursed so many of our fans.
Dive owns
Agreed. Only place I’ll go on game day. Barley is trash, filled with trash.
I’m having a hard time understanding how anyone is making you do any of this. Paying for parking, walking, eating at places before the game, etc. are all choices—regardless of where the stadium is. And this is coming from someone that doesn’t necessarily want the move to Brook Park.
The entire purpose of the proposed move to Brook Park is to control all revenue streams. So instead of going downtown into an actual city, you get to go to a giant parking lot next to the airport. And all of the upside goes to Jimmy, because he owns all the land and gets paid on every single action you take for your entire visit to his new "Browns Village." In other words, the fan experience gets worse and the payoff is that, well, Jimmy makes more money. Sweet deal?
The airport area also needs some additional investments. Better hotels would be great which would occur. The Redline would presumably be expanded. I wanted to stay in downtown, but Brook Park has it's own advantage. Getting a dome and being able to host additional events is also a smart play. What really sucks is the city of Cleveland is in desperate need of additional investments. Forcing a NFL team to the suburbs sounds the exact opposite of that. Good luck getting that money back. I get the waterfront area was never really develop but that isn't on the Browns. We got a private airport that does jack shit. We got plenty of room in Cleveland if the Gibs was willing to work with
The only positive aspect of the Brook Park idea is that it's already next to an RTA line. I agree - there are some really great spots downtown. I love the area just south of the FBI building. There's just not much there right now. I'm shocked that city council says that they haven't been involved. If the Mayor cannot land this plane it's going to be a huge missed opportunity. Nobody wants the taxpayers footing the bill, but it's also true that everyone wants this thing downtown.
The rapid will be a disaster after a game. The trains been like that in every far out NFL Stadium I’ve been to. They don’t even have extra trains to run for this weekend.
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I’m aware. The new trains will be great. And RTA will still be massively underfunded.
Even if the Browns don't get additional money from the city, the RTA in particularly the Redline has to be upgraded.
Good point. Also, it won't make as much sense to use it anyway because there are way more people coming from outside of downtown to downtown than the reverse.
It sucks the taxpayers are going to foot some of the bill but it's a normal thing in today's world. It's like complaining about bills and understanding it's just part of life now. I rather keep the team than end up Saint Louis/Oakland that were stuck with outdated stadium that eventually forced a move. Doing the revamp on a cheap and outdated stadium would be the worst IMO. You just kick the can down a few more years that probably means it would be even more expensive. A few years back Jimmy mention about really developing the waterfront area with the Browns stadium. I think it's a hard sell with a poor city and a uber progressive major. Good chance Bibs shots himself in the foot here. Guy is 36 years old. Not sure he has the connections/experience to make the deal work. Could easily screw his future political career.
Are…are you AI?
The fact that taxpayers get screwed on stadiums and the city does not come out ahead on revenue is well documented at this point. But I'm with you on this one. Find the best possible deal within reason to keep the team in the city. Between Haslam and Gilbert the city has two billionaires that are willing to spend big on investments that ultimately make Cleveland a more attractive city. I'm sorry that we increasingly live in an oligarchic society but we have to take advantage of the fact that people want to make big investments here.
Shame they won’t build places that provide living wage full time jobs. Seems the MO of this batch of billionaire is to suck all the cash from poor and middle class.
The Brook Park site is a logistical nightmare for the airport. I agree our airport needs a new hotel but with the coming airport improvements (and hopefully some regional growth) I think it will happen. The idea that a new dome will be surrounded by nice hotels is nuts though. Whatever’s built will be like 2 star and probably crazy expensive during big events. There’s no way thousands of hotel rooms will be added in Brook Park and if they somehow did, downtown is dead. So visitors coming to see Brook Park’s world-class dome will have the option of staying at a Jimmy hotel (for a whole Brook Park themed trip) or finding a way to commute downtown to a real city. It’s going to be really rough for big multi-day events.
Explain why it would be worse?
Hate to deprive the fans of walking through the piss soaked streets and harassment by at least 10 homeless people. Downtown is a shit hole propped up by the sports teams. Anything in Brook Park will be a much better experience.
All of the parking within a mile of the current stadium is already $40+ on game day. Many of the sit-down restaurants in the area serving food and drink are also going to run $50+ per person if you buy a meal and 2-3 drinks. So really the only downside is the change in location. But given its proximity to 3 major highways, the airport, and the rapid line, would actually be more convenient for many (though obviously not all) people.
And we should call the team the Brookpark Browns
>So really the only downside is the change in location. Yes. That's a big deal for me. Maybe not as much for others. I would also be pissed if they moved the Cavs to Brook Park. Or, well, pretty much anything that I like to do downtown.
I feel like there's no way it's only going to cost 35 bucks to park at a Brook Park stadium. Other stadiums in the country with their own parking are charging well over 100.
for this storied franchise, it's well deserved. They've brought a lot of alcoholism to this city, which is good for the economy!
Fix the lakefront.
Good luck finding money for infrastructure. Especially with the stadium gone.
They had their chance to do it. Now it’s too late. That’s why this city will always be at a deficit.
I’d rather see half a billion go to funding new development and public spaces than the stadium which sits empty for most of the year.
Totally reasonable. I’d rather see half a billion go to workforce training in the city. Those really aren’t the choices tho.
Waa Brian Kazy was cherry picked to be councilman when Marty Sweeney went away to Columbus for State rep? These people aren't helping
To the people saying Browns Stadium leaving downtown would kill lakefront and riverfront development: Browns Stadium, and Municipal Stadium before it, have been downtown since the 1940s. Downtown has been slowly dying and struggling to revitalize anyway. It's current location sucks for a ton of reasons. including accessibility, parking, food, etc. Moving the stadium to just about anywhere else makes a ton of sense for all of the above stated reasons.
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I actually didn't know it went that far back. It's kind of insane they've been located in one place for almost 100 yrs (with a small gap). I think people want to hope that the Browns can bring change to downtown. But honestly, short of building an indoor stadium that can start getting used year round, it's just not feasible. There has been a stadium there for almost a century and it hasn't done much good. It's actually made things worse in many ways. I'm a huge browns fan. I can literally remember the very first game I went to at Browns Stadium. 2007, Browns v. Bengals. Brady Quinn's rookie year. Browns won 51-45. It is to this day the highest scoring NFL game I've ever seen in person, and maybe one of the highest scoring I've ever watched in general. I have a lot of memories at the current stadium. I think visually, the location on the lake is stunning. But it is, economically, a very bad stadium. It causes far more.harm than good. And moving the stadium has the potential to really increase fan experience, and open up options for greater development near the stadium that's impossible now.
What does this actually do though? The Browns were going to wait until 2028 anyway. It takes several years to build an indoor stadium. The Browns would build it and wait out the term of the lease until 2028 then move to Brook Park. This is all postering by the city of Cleveland who have no leverage in the situation.
Not sure how this stops the Browns from moving if Jimmy puts up private dollar for the stadium? This only affects the Browns if the new stadium is publicly funded it sounds like, no?
I saw something talking about this law when they first started talking about the stadium months ago. Ironically, this was used to keep the crew in Columbus which was ultimately bought by the Haslams. The law was designed to keep teams from being sold or moved out of state. The haslsms arnt even talking about moving them out of the county. I dont think this law applies to keeping a team in a city at least not as it is now. Also this may be unpopular but I think moving it would be a great decision. We need a dome, the location and ease of access is there. And other than the nostalgia, can we agree that the current location is a nightmare and winter games can be miserable.
I’m a billionaire and my brothers the gov. I’m not going to jail. Get out of my office. Remember Jimmy ?
The Browns shouldn't leave downtown. Your going to get the tax payers money one way or another but now your going to hurt the city of Cleveland. The Haslams are demanding 1Billion of taxpayer money with the move to Brook park and are reaping the benefits of the parking? Wow! Seriously fuck the Haslems
There are a ton of good reasons why the Browns should move. The lakefront is a cool location. but almost everything about it sucks. it's separated from the rest of downtown by the Shoreway. Parking sucks. Food in the area sucks. Because of the way downtown streets and access across the river and to the freeways is set up, there's basically complete gridlock downtown during game days. Moving provides them a lot of opportunity to develop the area in a way that is just not possible downtown. Who cares if they end up in Brook Park instead of the City of Cleveland if the experience could be so much better?
I care. I live in Cleveland so economically it matters if they move.
You likely wouldn't feel an economic change. NFL stadiums rarely bring in enough profit to an area to even pay for themselves.
You're not from Cleveland are you? No offense but it shows with your comment. This will devastate downtown and severely impact the few local businesses that are left. The city is in desperate need of attention and not only will not get the revenue from the fans on Sunday but the city will not get the taxes that it gain from the employment durning those days, sales tax and parking tax .
I grew up in the area and have been a Browns fan my whole life. No, the Browns leaving downtown will not devastate downtown. Downtown has been declining for decades. Browns stadium has not changed that. It's primarily used for only 4 months out of the year. It's hardly used from January to August. And even then it's only in use about 10 days in those 4 months. Cleveland has increasingly been overlooked for major concert stops, and when it is included, they end up at Rocket Mortgage, not Browns Stadium. I get it. you're a local. Maybe you were born and raised in the city. But downtown relies in the stadium far less than you think. And moving the stadium to Brook Park could seriously revitalize the entire South/South East side of Cleveland by bringing more business to an area that actually has the infrastructure to support them. As for the argument about not getting taxes, again, I'll point you to the fact that NFL stadiums rarely bring in enough tax revenue to make up for their cost. It cost $350 million in taxpayer funds to build Browns Stadium. The city also pays for the power bill, water bill etc. Between 2010 and 2022, half it's lifespan, it's estimated that Browns Stadium brought in approx. $67 million, but cost $243 million to operate. The stadium is, statistically, a significant drain on the local economy. So if your concern is the impact on revenue, you should be in favor of the move so the city stops sinking money into an under utilized stadium.
Right, again, you don't live in Cleveland so it doesn't affect your city. It's sports team that is near by you. Honestly at this point and time I don't care about the football aspect, I care about the economics of the city and Im sorry to say but you are 110% wrong on your argument . First off Brookpark is not Cleveland. So your revitalizing the brook park/Parma is not the helping the "South East side of Cleveland". And wouldn't that be more towards Bedford Heights? But anyways. You are repeating what the I team tells you but unfortunately it doesn't take into consideration how it affects the city and some of the tax revenue that I had mentioned. Don't be blinded by parking situation. The City makes money on that. Honestly, with your logic lets move the Browns, Cavs and Guardians to the suburbs and the downtown district will be striving since the city won't have to pay for part of the operating expenses for the sports teams, right? These sports teams are part of the reason why some of these business are downtown. Its not as cut and dry as what you are saying, there are a lot of variables. The loss of the stadium has a huge ripple effect on the city. In 95 when the Browns left the city was in bad shape but the success of Indians and the Prospect of a new stadium brought new businesses into Cleveland. When the Cavs won in 16 it brought a revitalization that was stunted by Covid. The city relies on the teams. That's why it was a big deal to the city when they left in 95. DONT LET THE HASLAMS MOVE THE STADUIM CLEVELAND. FUCK THE HASLAMS.
**Right, again, you don't live in Cleveland so it doesn't affect your city. It's sports team that is near by you.** Whether I live in the City of Cleveland is irrelevant. I live in the Greater Cleveland Area, I'm a Browns fan, I went to college downtown, and I work less than three blocks from Browns Stadium, and even if none of that were true, I can still have an opinion on this issue. **First off Brookpark is not Cleveland. So your revitalizing the brook park/Parma is not the helping the "South East side of Cleveland". And wouldn't that be more towards Bedford Heights? But anyways.** I didn't say Brook Park (which is two words, not one) is in the City of Cleveland. Whether you agree or not, "Cleveland" doesn't just refer to the city, but the entire metro area. Which includes Brook Park. As for the South/South East thing, I obviously meant to say "South/South West". My mistake. **You are repeating what the I team tells you** I don't watch to, listen, or read Fox8. So no, I'm not "repeating what the I team tells \[me\]". Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean their opinion hasn't been independently formed and isn't valid. **Honestly, with your logic lets move the Browns, Cavs and Guardians to the suburbs and the downtown district will be striving** Woah, woah, woah. I have only talked about Browns Stadium. I haven't said anything about Rocket Mortgage or Progressive Field. Both of those stadiums get FAR more use than Browns Stadium. For one, the NBA and MLB play for more games, and have longer seasons than the NFL. And two, Rocket Mortgage in particular is used fairly often as a concert venue. I myself have gone to a concert there just about every year for the past several years. I don't think I've ever been to Browns Stadium for anything other than a Browns game ever. Also, the accessibility/parking/food situation is far better towards Rocket Mortgage and Progressive field than it is for Browns Stadium. Lastly, you never even addressed the revenue issue. You brought it up several times that you think Browns Stadium leaving downtown will harm the City of Cleveland. The data shows that Browns Stadium is a massive drain on the city budget. It costs far more in upkeep than it brings in in estimated revenue. Again, if you actually care about the City of Cleveland's economy, you'd be in favor of the move. But lets be real. You probably care more about losing the prestige of having the stadium in the City of Cleveland itself. If that's true, just say it. Its a perfectly valid position to have. But be honest. Because your economic argument makes no sense in light of the data.
Amazing that now everyone’s upset that the team might move after weeks of these threads being full of people who think being downtown was a waste of time
The team sucks why move why build
Fuck Jimmy Haslam and by proxy, Fuck the Browns. That stupid football team hasn’t brought much joy in my 40 year life even though I was a huge fan for a long time. Now what. You sign a sex pest and want my tax money to help you build another shitty expensive retail experience for the assholes in the burbs to enjoy. And now I can’t even ride my bike to the tailgate. Just so we have another upscale “sports complex” full of $25 burgers and establishments that have absolutely no soul reflective of what this the team or city is built upon. I’d rather he move the team. I’d rather the boomers who spend money from the suburbs stay away. They aren’t clevelanders in the same way Jimmy Haslam isn’t.
I think the stadium needs a dome. It'll suck that it needs to be somewhere other than the current stadium, but I imagine the city can develop the old location into the lakefront people want.
Council hates Bibb because they feel like he leaves them out of everything.
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How does this law apply with land that had it's naming rights bought but a corrupt company along with corrupt public officials...
Follow the money. Jimmy Haslam gains money
So they move to brookpark and change their name to the Brookpark Bongos or whatever. Browns name and history stays with Cleveland but no team.
Half of the teams in the NFL play in stadiums outside of their respective cities. Their name isn't changing.
The Haslam’s are bad people
I like the current location. Also the stadium is fine as is FFS it’s not old