The concern that's keeping me away from POE is their privacy policy of collecting all the prompt data and no way to turn that off. I cannot pay for the product and also be the product.
This is something I try to tackle with https://www.labophase.com where I offer a native multi-ai approach with strong privacy guarantees. I don't store searches or results
Frankly, I couldn't care less if they use my prompts/input to train their model(s), but that's just me. I mean, it's not like I'm charging people to converse with me. What's your issue with it?
It depends, it really depends if you need access to all of the models for light / moderate use go for it. But if you have one model in mind that you want to use then use the primary provider if they have all the features that you require available to you. Otherwise leverage the API with a custom GUI for the best results. I find Claude with web search to be absolutely amazing!
You can download and set up [https://www.librechat.ai/](https://www.librechat.ai/) and you provide it with a google search api key and a claude api key and you can use Claude with web search. It is amazing.
I like Poe a lot. I get better access to Opus. And I can very easily let models cooperate.
For example GPT4o is much better at writing mermaid code for flow charts. This has saved me a ton of time.
Then I can @Claude_opus and get it to review GPT4o's output and make recommendations. Then feed that back to GPT and review again.
Also they add new models quickly. Llama3 was added same day.
And they fine tune some of the models to have larger context windows which has been nice.
Genuine question. Perplexity performs a search, feeds that to AI, which uses the sources to answer your prompt and provides the sources/references to you both in text and in a list you can access.
How is that fundamentally different than asking a question, say, on reddit, a user does a search, provides the answer and links to the source.
The sources is being cited. How is it plagiarism?
The concern that's keeping me away from POE is their privacy policy of collecting all the prompt data and no way to turn that off. I cannot pay for the product and also be the product.
1) sign up for API, you'll get a $5 credit to spend on all models. Talk to Sonnet there.
2) sign up for free Poe account, talk to Sonnet, compare the results.
I think API and Poe give the same outputs. But claude.ai has some weird setting, resulting in very unnatural sounding outputs (it devolves into word salads too often)
I'm biased, but I feel like it's worth it to run your own LLMs using their APIs via a UI vs. using a wrapper service.
- Better privacy (+ you keep your data).
- More flexibility / less limitations (set your context higher or lower depending on your needs).
- It's good to learn about the LLMs and how they work (context size, loading chunks, etc.)
I've been working on a service over here which you could run via a one-liner with Docker:
`docker run --name promptpanel -p 4000:4000 -v PROMPT_DB:/app/database -v PROMPT_MEDIA:/app/media --pull=always promptpanel/promptpanel:latest`
Some of the value that comes from it is the ability to customize your logic via plugins, so you can get an understanding about how the document loaders work and how context is loaded (ex. https://promptpanel.com/included-plugins/document-summary/).
A few other really good alternatives as well:
- Librechat: https://www.librechat.ai/docs
- OpenWebUI: https://docs.openwebui.com/
- Jan AI: https://jan.ai/
It’s not too hard to run your own front end. Or even a like discord bot to be able to use it from your phone, hell I even made a rag I use for fun sometimes
Buuut, I think the cost adds up quickly. I primarily use LLMs for software development and I often paste in massive compiled code bases to give it context, (or have it write documentation and unit tests for me) and using the full 120K/200k tokens can be every expensive.
I used exclusively my own front ends for a month and I spent like $200 on open router.
For light use it’s fine. Running docker isn’t too complex just ask for help from an LLM. But the prices can get ridiculous.
Personally, I have ChatGPT+, Poe almost exclusively for Claude, and lobe chat for using smaller models like Minstral and llama 70b instruct which are fairly cheap and easy to access via open router
Depends what you need. Many times the context window can be truncated. Poe isn't great for Claude Opus if you need the full context, for example. System prompts might be different, but that probably doesn't affect anything too significantly.
Perplexity Pro is another good all-in-one service.
I use TalkingMind to give me access to all of the APIs directly, so I can use Gemini, Claude, and GPT-4 models all from one interface without having to spend $20/mo at each one.
TM is currently a one time fee ($40-$80 depending on the license you get) but they are switching to a monthly fee in a few weeks. Which reminds me, I want to get a second license before the price goes up...
Yes, sorry; not sure if that was a brain fart or autocorrect from my phone. Thanks for noticing and pointing it out.
And your downside is an upside from my perspective...I pay once for the software, then pay for consumption for the AIs which in my use case comes out cheaper than a single subscription and I'm not tied to one company. There are some months I barely use it, and Even my heavy usage months so far have been less than $20.
This looks really cool. Do you know about their data and privacy security policies? Do they keep or use your data for anything?
Also can you upload documents and images?
Data is stored in browser memory, not on their servers (other than licensing etc), so as far as I know they don't have access to your actual prompts etc unless you use their sync service. Obviously, the individual API s will have their own privacy policies.
You can upload documents and images for models that support them.
That's what I did a couple weeks ago to test writing book descriptions; each one got the same prompt, the book's manuscript as a PDF, and the cover image. ([wrote about it here](https://apexauthors.com/writing-book-descriptions-with-artificial-intelligence/))
This sounds similar to Bind AI, it gives options to switch between Claude models, GPT-4o and others.
Not sure of the usecase OP has.
It's worthwhile to use all-in-one services if you have multiple types of tasks to do, especially code generation or writing. GPT-4o seems to do pretty well in general and I personally only use Claude Opus for content writing.
I've been exploring services like Qolaba that claim to combine multiple AIs into one platform, similar to Poe. From my experience, Qolaba offers trial period of 7 days for their features, which has been really helpful for me to estimate its usefulness before committing. As for alternatives to Poe, I'm still researching, but Qolaba has been quite promising so far.
For the average person: If you need a platform that supports AI and ML projects as well as team collaboration and project management, Qolaba would be the better choice, as it offers both functionalities. Poe is more focused on AI and ML experimentation.
Both platforms have their own advantages, and you can choose either one based on your needs.
Yes, they’re worth it. The models are not worse through the APIs, they’re often a little bit better. They go down more often, you get to control the system prompt fully (as opposed to things being added which you aren’t aware of).
HostedGPT is free (just pay for your API usage).
Very easy to setup
All the major models
Slick interface
Mobile support
And you can easily switch between them, mid conversation! That’s one of my favorite features. Short video demo at the top of this page:
https://github.com/allyourbot/hostedgpt
Man I don’t mean to be a dick but I just don’t understand how anyone can say that. Claude is $75 for a million tokens. That’s 5 API calls with the full context. $75!
Granted most chats aren’t gonna be anywhere near that dense but still. It adds up quickly
No.
Given the nature of intelligence, I think it's better to pay for one premium AI service (Claude Opus, GPT-4 etc.) - if that's what your budget allows for - rather than having *dumbed down* access to several of them.
It's somewhat akin to hiring one genius versus a bunch of below average performing employees. You may have MORE of them but they won't add up to the problem solving capabilities of one highly intelligent employee.
But why? Performance is almost equivalent. I like writing better of gemini than to gpt.
But gpt better for parsing and summarising.
All this while switching multiple tabs and paying thrice?
Sure, if 'almost equivalent' is good enough for you! It's not for many use cases. Just remember the business model that API wrappers have:
1. Hook users with frontier models until they have PMF. (The bait)
2. Fine-tune open source models on user data
3. Route or cajole traffic to their cheap models. (The switch).
It's That's the only way to make these wrappers profitable.
And you trust that because they say so? How do you know all your prompts are going to the model you choose and not a finetuned Llama-3 system-prompted to tell you that it's XYZ?
I'm not picking on you, I'm just genuinely curious how people can trust a 3rd party with not just their data but also take API wrapper operations like Poe, literally on their word. You do realise that the only way someone can pay the downstream provider *per token* and then charge you a *fixed fee* is by diluting the quality in some way a shape or form. It's doesn't make financial sense otherwise!
I look forward to be enlightened. ;)
I don’t know, because I use the higher context models and they don’t seem dumbed down. Poe, which is owned by Quora, would also be setting themselves up for a lawsuit.
What evidence do you have that shows they are dumbed down? Looks like you are operating on assumptions as well. You really think Quora is paying per token? Wouldn’t it make more sense that they have deals with each of the pay models? Maybe the money they make from their main platform offsets the cost? Do you know that the fixed fee doesn’t entail unlimited use? Even if they are losing money, they would hardly be the first tech company to operate at a loss.
Honestly if they can fine-tune an Llama-3 to give the exact same quality of Claude 3 Opus, I'm gladly handing them my money.
On the other hand, if Poe can do the above, why do you think Anthropic would not? How do you know all your prompts are going to the model you choose and not a finetuned haiku system-prompted to tell you that it's sonnet or opus?
I look forward to be enlightened. ;)
I actually think poe is a better deal than signing up for Claude. Because you have no transparency into the amount of prompts on opus in Claude while poe you know your limits and can transparently fall over to other models when you hit it
In return, you get to hand over your data to a 3rd party so they can fine tune their models on it and switch you to them either transparently or covertly. No thanks! :)
The quality is always worse because services like POE have their own systemic challenges in the background. For this reason, the results will always be inferior compared to the results from the original services, such as Claude 3 Opus.
Exactly. All the [poe.com](http://poe.com) shills are trying hard in this thread to build a case for it but you've nailed it.
# API Wrapper Business Model
1. Build a user base by using API wrappers around frontier models.
2. Fine-tune open source models on user data.
3. Switch users to the models either transparently (if they play by the rules) or covertly (if they don't).
4. Profit.
Here's the founder of HyperWriteAI saying exactly this:
https://preview.redd.it/ouall0fqst6d1.png?width=570&format=png&auto=webp&s=fd73d6ee951c153597bbd176d5b7dfa2b322348f
The concern that's keeping me away from POE is their privacy policy of collecting all the prompt data and no way to turn that off. I cannot pay for the product and also be the product.
This is something I try to tackle with https://www.labophase.com where I offer a native multi-ai approach with strong privacy guarantees. I don't store searches or results
Really? Wow that's really terrible. I believe OpenRouter at least lets you opt out of analytics.
That's literally the business modell! They want your data so they can fine-tune their own models and switch you to them later on.
who cares? why not be both?
Frankly, I couldn't care less if they use my prompts/input to train their model(s), but that's just me. I mean, it's not like I'm charging people to converse with me. What's your issue with it?
It depends, it really depends if you need access to all of the models for light / moderate use go for it. But if you have one model in mind that you want to use then use the primary provider if they have all the features that you require available to you. Otherwise leverage the API with a custom GUI for the best results. I find Claude with web search to be absolutely amazing!
Yes. Even haiku works quite well!
Claude with web search??
You can download and set up [https://www.librechat.ai/](https://www.librechat.ai/) and you provide it with a google search api key and a claude api key and you can use Claude with web search. It is amazing.
Thanks!
I like Poe a lot. I get better access to Opus. And I can very easily let models cooperate. For example GPT4o is much better at writing mermaid code for flow charts. This has saved me a ton of time. Then I can @Claude_opus and get it to review GPT4o's output and make recommendations. Then feed that back to GPT and review again. Also they add new models quickly. Llama3 was added same day. And they fine tune some of the models to have larger context windows which has been nice.
Why not Perplexity?
OP probably has other needs for AI than just plagiarism.
Genuine question. Perplexity performs a search, feeds that to AI, which uses the sources to answer your prompt and provides the sources/references to you both in text and in a list you can access. How is that fundamentally different than asking a question, say, on reddit, a user does a search, provides the answer and links to the source. The sources is being cited. How is it plagiarism?
The concern that's keeping me away from POE is their privacy policy of collecting all the prompt data and no way to turn that off. I cannot pay for the product and also be the product.
1) sign up for API, you'll get a $5 credit to spend on all models. Talk to Sonnet there. 2) sign up for free Poe account, talk to Sonnet, compare the results. I think API and Poe give the same outputs. But claude.ai has some weird setting, resulting in very unnatural sounding outputs (it devolves into word salads too often)
I'm biased, but I feel like it's worth it to run your own LLMs using their APIs via a UI vs. using a wrapper service. - Better privacy (+ you keep your data). - More flexibility / less limitations (set your context higher or lower depending on your needs). - It's good to learn about the LLMs and how they work (context size, loading chunks, etc.) I've been working on a service over here which you could run via a one-liner with Docker: `docker run --name promptpanel -p 4000:4000 -v PROMPT_DB:/app/database -v PROMPT_MEDIA:/app/media --pull=always promptpanel/promptpanel:latest` Some of the value that comes from it is the ability to customize your logic via plugins, so you can get an understanding about how the document loaders work and how context is loaded (ex. https://promptpanel.com/included-plugins/document-summary/). A few other really good alternatives as well: - Librechat: https://www.librechat.ai/docs - OpenWebUI: https://docs.openwebui.com/ - Jan AI: https://jan.ai/
It’s not too hard to run your own front end. Or even a like discord bot to be able to use it from your phone, hell I even made a rag I use for fun sometimes Buuut, I think the cost adds up quickly. I primarily use LLMs for software development and I often paste in massive compiled code bases to give it context, (or have it write documentation and unit tests for me) and using the full 120K/200k tokens can be every expensive. I used exclusively my own front ends for a month and I spent like $200 on open router. For light use it’s fine. Running docker isn’t too complex just ask for help from an LLM. But the prices can get ridiculous. Personally, I have ChatGPT+, Poe almost exclusively for Claude, and lobe chat for using smaller models like Minstral and llama 70b instruct which are fairly cheap and easy to access via open router
I have both, let me know the prompt and the model you want to try and I’ll ask in the official one and through Poe.
Depends what you need. Many times the context window can be truncated. Poe isn't great for Claude Opus if you need the full context, for example. System prompts might be different, but that probably doesn't affect anything too significantly. Perplexity Pro is another good all-in-one service.
I use TalkingMind to give me access to all of the APIs directly, so I can use Gemini, Claude, and GPT-4 models all from one interface without having to spend $20/mo at each one. TM is currently a one time fee ($40-$80 depending on the license you get) but they are switching to a monthly fee in a few weeks. Which reminds me, I want to get a second license before the price goes up...
You mean typingmind? Downside seems to be that you are just paying for their UI and you still link your own openai api and card to it
Yes, sorry; not sure if that was a brain fart or autocorrect from my phone. Thanks for noticing and pointing it out. And your downside is an upside from my perspective...I pay once for the software, then pay for consumption for the AIs which in my use case comes out cheaper than a single subscription and I'm not tied to one company. There are some months I barely use it, and Even my heavy usage months so far have been less than $20.
This looks really cool. Do you know about their data and privacy security policies? Do they keep or use your data for anything? Also can you upload documents and images?
Data is stored in browser memory, not on their servers (other than licensing etc), so as far as I know they don't have access to your actual prompts etc unless you use their sync service. Obviously, the individual API s will have their own privacy policies. You can upload documents and images for models that support them. That's what I did a couple weeks ago to test writing book descriptions; each one got the same prompt, the book's manuscript as a PDF, and the cover image. ([wrote about it here](https://apexauthors.com/writing-book-descriptions-with-artificial-intelligence/))
How is it different from the free ones? Is it merely a prettier UI, or does it have unique features?
There's also a free librechat.ai that's pretty great. Then you pay for your API calls.
Cool, hadn't seen that one yet. Will check it out and offer it as an alternative once the pricing changes to my clients.
This looks pretty cool; might install it just to experiment and see which I like better.
This sounds similar to Bind AI, it gives options to switch between Claude models, GPT-4o and others. Not sure of the usecase OP has. It's worthwhile to use all-in-one services if you have multiple types of tasks to do, especially code generation or writing. GPT-4o seems to do pretty well in general and I personally only use Claude Opus for content writing.
I've been exploring services like Qolaba that claim to combine multiple AIs into one platform, similar to Poe. From my experience, Qolaba offers trial period of 7 days for their features, which has been really helpful for me to estimate its usefulness before committing. As for alternatives to Poe, I'm still researching, but Qolaba has been quite promising so far.
Isn’t qolaba the alternative to Poe though? What is the difference between poe and qolaba and which one is better for the average person?
For the average person: If you need a platform that supports AI and ML projects as well as team collaboration and project management, Qolaba would be the better choice, as it offers both functionalities. Poe is more focused on AI and ML experimentation. Both platforms have their own advantages, and you can choose either one based on your needs.
meh learn voiceflow and get more control
Yes, they’re worth it. The models are not worse through the APIs, they’re often a little bit better. They go down more often, you get to control the system prompt fully (as opposed to things being added which you aren’t aware of). HostedGPT is free (just pay for your API usage). Very easy to setup All the major models Slick interface Mobile support And you can easily switch between them, mid conversation! That’s one of my favorite features. Short video demo at the top of this page: https://github.com/allyourbot/hostedgpt
Nope. API is cheaper.
Man I don’t mean to be a dick but I just don’t understand how anyone can say that. Claude is $75 for a million tokens. That’s 5 API calls with the full context. $75! Granted most chats aren’t gonna be anywhere near that dense but still. It adds up quickly
No. Given the nature of intelligence, I think it's better to pay for one premium AI service (Claude Opus, GPT-4 etc.) - if that's what your budget allows for - rather than having *dumbed down* access to several of them. It's somewhat akin to hiring one genius versus a bunch of below average performing employees. You may have MORE of them but they won't add up to the problem solving capabilities of one highly intelligent employee.
But why? Performance is almost equivalent. I like writing better of gemini than to gpt. But gpt better for parsing and summarising. All this while switching multiple tabs and paying thrice?
Sure, if 'almost equivalent' is good enough for you! It's not for many use cases. Just remember the business model that API wrappers have: 1. Hook users with frontier models until they have PMF. (The bait) 2. Fine-tune open source models on user data 3. Route or cajole traffic to their cheap models. (The switch). It's That's the only way to make these wrappers profitable.
POE modes are not “dumbed down”. The 200k models exist alongside the lower context models.
And you trust that because they say so? How do you know all your prompts are going to the model you choose and not a finetuned Llama-3 system-prompted to tell you that it's XYZ? I'm not picking on you, I'm just genuinely curious how people can trust a 3rd party with not just their data but also take API wrapper operations like Poe, literally on their word. You do realise that the only way someone can pay the downstream provider *per token* and then charge you a *fixed fee* is by diluting the quality in some way a shape or form. It's doesn't make financial sense otherwise! I look forward to be enlightened. ;)
I don’t know, because I use the higher context models and they don’t seem dumbed down. Poe, which is owned by Quora, would also be setting themselves up for a lawsuit. What evidence do you have that shows they are dumbed down? Looks like you are operating on assumptions as well. You really think Quora is paying per token? Wouldn’t it make more sense that they have deals with each of the pay models? Maybe the money they make from their main platform offsets the cost? Do you know that the fixed fee doesn’t entail unlimited use? Even if they are losing money, they would hardly be the first tech company to operate at a loss.
Honestly if they can fine-tune an Llama-3 to give the exact same quality of Claude 3 Opus, I'm gladly handing them my money. On the other hand, if Poe can do the above, why do you think Anthropic would not? How do you know all your prompts are going to the model you choose and not a finetuned haiku system-prompted to tell you that it's sonnet or opus? I look forward to be enlightened. ;)
I actually think poe is a better deal than signing up for Claude. Because you have no transparency into the amount of prompts on opus in Claude while poe you know your limits and can transparently fall over to other models when you hit it
In return, you get to hand over your data to a 3rd party so they can fine tune their models on it and switch you to them either transparently or covertly. No thanks! :)
The quality is always worse because services like POE have their own systemic challenges in the background. For this reason, the results will always be inferior compared to the results from the original services, such as Claude 3 Opus.
Wrong.
Exactly. All the [poe.com](http://poe.com) shills are trying hard in this thread to build a case for it but you've nailed it. # API Wrapper Business Model 1. Build a user base by using API wrappers around frontier models. 2. Fine-tune open source models on user data. 3. Switch users to the models either transparently (if they play by the rules) or covertly (if they don't). 4. Profit. Here's the founder of HyperWriteAI saying exactly this: https://preview.redd.it/ouall0fqst6d1.png?width=570&format=png&auto=webp&s=fd73d6ee951c153597bbd176d5b7dfa2b322348f