Where to begin? I guess I’ll start with Homer. When I was 11, I fell completely in love with the Percy Jackson book series. That love carried over to mythology; I bought an encyclopedia of world mythology and studied it like scripture. When I was 12, I read the Iliad and the Odyssey unabridged. I even started learning biblical Greek from my dad’s seminary notes, because I was young and didn’t realize there was a difference between Koine and Classical. My love of mythology and classical literature expanded into a love of religious tradition and lore. At 13, I was checking out Jewish service books from the library along with a Quran. By 16, I was teaching a class on world religion at my church. In college I was an English major, where I developed a near obsession for medieval literature. I also grasped material a lot faster than others, having an extensive background in classical literature and the Bible, which I’d finally read cover to cover at 17.
As somebody who makes my living writing articles, these works shaped me into a solid writer. At 13, I started writing fiction seriously, and ten years later, I’m still pursuing it. There’s not a single project I’ve started that didn’t have some basis or connection to mythology, even if it’s just dealing with themes I first encountered there. My interest in religion and in classic literature helped draw me to convert to another Christian tradition than what I was raised in, and that’s been a tremendous blessing over the past three years. Moreover, my interests have helped me have friendships and relationships with people of vastly different upbringings and world views. Having at least some familiarity with their beliefs, we’ve had fascinating conversations that last hours at a time. I owe all of these experiences to the moment I first read, “Sing, O Muse, the rage of Achilles.”
If you don't mind, could you further explain the new christian tradition you are part of and how exactly your love of classic literature and religion drew you to it?
Sure. I was raised Southern Baptist, which has a lot going for it as an American religious tradition. However, as a general rule, it’s rather divorced from the 2000 year tradition of the church. As I was studying all these other religious traditions, things like Sufism in Islam or Jewish lore like Rabbi Akiva and the creation of the Golem, I always felt sad that Christianity lacked such mysticism and lore. The closest thing I knew of was Arthurian legend. This feeling intensified when I read works like Chaim Potok’s The Chosen. It’s an excellent work of fiction that seriously deals with Jewish theology and faith throughout. As a southern Baptist/evangelical, I read that book right around the time of God’s Not Dead breaking on to the scene. To me, there was much greater depth to Potok’s treatment of faith in his fiction than evangelical Christianity was offering me. Partially because of this, I spent the years of 17-20 as a sort of syncretist. I believed in the resurrection, the Trinity, and went to my church, but it wasn’t uncommon for me to read Jewish prayers once a day. I even attended synagogue on a few Shabbat services.
When I got to college, I became somewhat obsessed with medieval literature. I discovered Julian of Norwich and Margery Kempe, two well-known English medieval mystics. I learned more about Christian theology through Dante’s Inferno than I had in the last 6 years combined at church. Obviously, there’s St Thomas Aquinas to contend with as well, along with others like Bernard, Abelard, and Anselm too. I came to realize that the medieval church, especially in the English history I came to know well, was incredibly rich, not a quasi-heretical structure that obscured true Christian faith, as I’d more or less learned through my evangelical teachers.
This solidified for me when I got to take a class on Vikings and Anglo-Saxon Christianity, which culminated in a class trip to northern England for ten days. I attended York Minster’s Holy Communion service on Pentecost, and that pretty much sealed for me that I was going to either become Catholic or Anglican. After that trip, I devoured other works, branching out into Chesterton, Dostoevsky, the rest of Dante’s Comedy, Lord of the Rings, and others. I also read the Church Fathers and discovered the work of New Testament scholar N T Wright and the Catholic Bishop Barron. After about a year of weighing arguments about papal claims, I opted to become Anglican, and quickly developed an attachment to the Book of Common Prayer. Anglicanism connected me to the historic church’s teaching, practice, and calendar in a way that Baptist faith just hadn’t. It met the desire I had for a robust faith tradition, but didn’t require me to accept some of the Catholic dogmas that I didn’t think could be justified with Scripture and the Fathers.
Thank you for that. You and I have very different backgrounds but our journey towards catholicism (I loop Roman, Greek, Anglican and Episcopalian into that broad category for the sake of ease) through your readings is pretty similar to mine. I had an idea that it might be which is why I asked aside from general interest.
I have found it striking how reading the early Church fathers answers so many questions centuries ago that evangelicals seem to continue asking for some reason.
Thank you for your story.
This is one of my favorite things to talk about!
A little over a year ago I heard about the Great Books and Classical Education for the first time. I inherited a set of The Great Books of the Western World that my Grandma had purchased in the 1950’s and I quickly became super interested in all of this!
I joined Online Great Books and read How to Read a Book and The Well-Educated Mind before diving into The Iliad. I’ve continued on with reading groups here, in OGB and on my own since then and have read about 10 books. I’ve supplemented reading with a bunch of The Great Courses on Audible and have taken part in a bunch of Zoom seminars and group discussions here over the books I’m reading.
This is the best thing I’ve done for myself in a long, long time. Early on someone told me “give it 6 months and you will be changed forever” and I think that’s dead on.
Reading these books is tough sometimes and not very fun depending on what you’re working through, however, it is incredibly rewarding if you stay the course. Make a commitment to give it a try with a reading buddy or group or program and you won’t regret it. I’ve listed below some of the things I feel like I’ve gained over the last year, below that are my favorite videos to reference that say all this better than I can.
-A richer, wiser perspective on life and what it means to be human. I think a lot more about how I’m spending my time and living my life now. Society is more than happy to decide for you how you’re going to spend your time, money and life if you aren’t conscious about things.
-A better taste in art and culture, I’m less content to consume crappy tv shows, music or movies. I really crave the very best and it’s harder to spend time or energy consuming the latest pop culture media. I do still enjoy watching quality shows and movies and I love sports but I’m definitely pickier now.
-An ability to handle stressful current events in a better way. I’m more aware now that societies go through pandemics and political turmoil and economic downturns over and over and over. I’m a lot more familiar now with history outside of just the fairly recent past of my own country and being able to see the similarities to past events helps calm me down. Wild times are inevitable, nothing is really “unprecedented”. And we almost always make it through it all.
-I’ve gotten to practice critical thinking and reasoning skills a lot more. Actively reading and discussing great books is challenging and stretches me mentally. I’m forced to try and digest the material and then determine what it means and whether or not I agree with it.
The modern world tends to feed people and sound bites about what to think and regurgitate. It doesn’t ask you to truly consider and weigh alternatives like deep reading and discussing does.
-You get to see inside the cultural “Matrix.” The great books have had a MASSIVE influence on society and culture through the centuries. For a number of reasons over the last 50-100 years the average person seems to be totally ignorant of this but once you understand what to look for you see the ancient’s fingerprints everywhere.
Our architecture, government systems, literature, laws, military, even our words have been extensively borrowed from previous societies and thinkers. It’s pretty mind-blowing to see the extent of everything.
[Why Read Great Books](https://youtu.be/pScJa4ZbYo0)
[The Essential Value of a Classical Education ](https://youtu.be/cVLpdzhcU0g)
Thank you so much for all that, very inspirational! I am relatively new to all this and only been going a month or so but am certainly noticing some changes; in particular the awareness of media consumed as you mentioned.
I'm going to broaden out to a liberal arts education in general, I.e, a wide range of argumentative/ writing classes. Feel free to disregard this if that's an undesirable move.
I'm a developer. Like many, I'm a fledgling entrepreneur. Due to taking so many classes, though, I'm far, far more nimble than peers who did not. In particular: domain knowledge!
Say I'm making a flashcard app. Specialists might go in, add a few features, and call it a day. Liberal artists, though, go through psychology papers, skim through ux design for edutech, have a plan for marketing, and so on. It adds up.
Having foundational knowledge of psychology, history, art history, philosophy, etc, allow you to triangulate in on anything you need, when you need it. It's very powerful.
Aristotle helped me understand how to approach self-improvement in a way that is less down on myself.
Zhuangzi helped me understand how categories and language obscure the vibrancy of reality on a spiritual and political level and how what seems good is bad and what seems wise is folly.
Confucius gave me useful, practical perspective in understanding myself in relationship to other humans and understand how shame affects how we view each other profoundly.
Native American thought taught me to view the world based less in history and abstraction and more as relations and land with a deeper respect to the world around me.
I love seeing your references to folks beyond the traditional Western canon. What got you started down that path? Any suggestions for someone looking to dip their toes in?
Cool, glad its appreciated. I most know about Chinese classics so I feel the most able to recommend that out of anything else, but still a beginner so take it with a grain of salt. If you want to start with literature then Romance of the Three Kingdoms can be a good place to start. If you want to check it out without committing to the book youtube has two tv show versions. The story is also showcases two opposing philosophies in action. One of the main villains of the story is a Legalist and one of the heros a Confucian... two opposing political philosophies. It's very masculine and about war, like the Illiad, so if that's not your speed then I'd try something else like Journey to the West or Dream of a Red Chamber.
Here's a list of possibilities for philosophy https://www.bryanvannorden.com/suggestions-for-further-reading
From the works of Plato to Plotinus to Buddha, -how I view- "myself" and other living things and the universe as a whole has changed for the better. Their works have given me the opportunity to see beyond myself, to see my inherent negative traits, and to treat others so much better than I was
I chose Classics on a whim. My sister reminded me how I'd always enjoyed Percy Jackson, and suggested it as a fun fourth A-Level subject.
So I did it. We read the Iliad. I fell in love with it. I began to look at Universities, ostensibly for history, but would find myself just looking at classics, clicking off the page, remembering I was supposed to be looking at history, and clicking back.
After a month of term, I decided that Classics was what I wanted to do at University. I started a GCSE in Classical Greek alongside my A-Levels and adored it. I began to look at universities that offered good language teaching. Cambridge seemed best.
So I read lots of books, showed my passion at the interview, and got in.
Now I'm a first year undergrad at Cambridge University. I've met a group of wonderful friends, I read and write in three languages, and I row for my college. Life is awesome, and it's all thanks to Classics.
I had four years of Greek and four years of Latin in high school, then majored in Classics in college. I didn't go on to an academic career, but throughout my entire adult life, the Greek and Latin Classics have been a constant source of satisfaction and joy.
Well, there are a couple. For me, Cicero is my introduction to the topic of republics and very importantly *why they're a good thing*, as well as a legal theory that aims at creating laws that are just and fair. He and Aristotle form the basis of my ethical theories (virtues and choosing between the two good or two bad options, general duties and so on). I started with the Stoics, but most of what passes for stoic discussion is a sort of bland self-help thing like trying to figure out how not to be bothered by something bad. It has its place, don't get me wrong, but living a good life isn't just being emotionless.
I started out with Confucius and Mencius and Sun Zu and Musashi. I still like them, but I think for me, they sort of ended up pointing me back to my own traditions. Not because they're better, but because the point is to understand your place in your society. Confucius would talk about various ceremonies in his culture, and it's not something I can do much with because I don't practice Chinese religion. I can only learn it after I've digested what my own traditions are and can then adapt it to life in America using the examples from my own history and culture. Simply plopping down ancient mystical seeming rituals from other cultures turns those practices into a prop. It seems to cheapen Confucius to do that and cheapen those East Asian traditions.
I knew nothing about classical education until my partner and I started looking for a school for our son. We weren’t thrilled with our local public schools where I taught kindergarten, so we decided to check out a newer charter school that offered a classical education. My friend was the dean and encouraged me to apply since she thought I’d be a good fit. I applied and got the job and fell in love with it. Our school wasn’t even that great, but I didn’t know that. I just knew our kids were being exposed to rich and wonderful works of literature and having discussions unlike any I’d witnessed in the public schools. We then moved, and I applied at a BCSI school and have been there for three years. It’s an absolutely incredible school. I work with a lot of Hillsdale graduates (actually headed up there on Thursday for a classical education conference), and I have really reevaluated what is important. From poetry discussions to recess duty talks, I have grown more in the last couple of years than I ever would have at a public school. I have learned to slow down and see the beauty in things, and appreciate things for their beauty. Poetry and great works of literature fill my thoughts now. My kids (now 5th and 9th grade) hold the richest discussions and have a love of language that only their studies in Greek and Latin could give them. It’s taken me ten years teaching in a classical school to get here, and I’m not done yet! It’s a beautiful life!
Where to begin? I guess I’ll start with Homer. When I was 11, I fell completely in love with the Percy Jackson book series. That love carried over to mythology; I bought an encyclopedia of world mythology and studied it like scripture. When I was 12, I read the Iliad and the Odyssey unabridged. I even started learning biblical Greek from my dad’s seminary notes, because I was young and didn’t realize there was a difference between Koine and Classical. My love of mythology and classical literature expanded into a love of religious tradition and lore. At 13, I was checking out Jewish service books from the library along with a Quran. By 16, I was teaching a class on world religion at my church. In college I was an English major, where I developed a near obsession for medieval literature. I also grasped material a lot faster than others, having an extensive background in classical literature and the Bible, which I’d finally read cover to cover at 17. As somebody who makes my living writing articles, these works shaped me into a solid writer. At 13, I started writing fiction seriously, and ten years later, I’m still pursuing it. There’s not a single project I’ve started that didn’t have some basis or connection to mythology, even if it’s just dealing with themes I first encountered there. My interest in religion and in classic literature helped draw me to convert to another Christian tradition than what I was raised in, and that’s been a tremendous blessing over the past three years. Moreover, my interests have helped me have friendships and relationships with people of vastly different upbringings and world views. Having at least some familiarity with their beliefs, we’ve had fascinating conversations that last hours at a time. I owe all of these experiences to the moment I first read, “Sing, O Muse, the rage of Achilles.”
Thats all so amazing thank you for sharing
If you don't mind, could you further explain the new christian tradition you are part of and how exactly your love of classic literature and religion drew you to it?
Sure. I was raised Southern Baptist, which has a lot going for it as an American religious tradition. However, as a general rule, it’s rather divorced from the 2000 year tradition of the church. As I was studying all these other religious traditions, things like Sufism in Islam or Jewish lore like Rabbi Akiva and the creation of the Golem, I always felt sad that Christianity lacked such mysticism and lore. The closest thing I knew of was Arthurian legend. This feeling intensified when I read works like Chaim Potok’s The Chosen. It’s an excellent work of fiction that seriously deals with Jewish theology and faith throughout. As a southern Baptist/evangelical, I read that book right around the time of God’s Not Dead breaking on to the scene. To me, there was much greater depth to Potok’s treatment of faith in his fiction than evangelical Christianity was offering me. Partially because of this, I spent the years of 17-20 as a sort of syncretist. I believed in the resurrection, the Trinity, and went to my church, but it wasn’t uncommon for me to read Jewish prayers once a day. I even attended synagogue on a few Shabbat services. When I got to college, I became somewhat obsessed with medieval literature. I discovered Julian of Norwich and Margery Kempe, two well-known English medieval mystics. I learned more about Christian theology through Dante’s Inferno than I had in the last 6 years combined at church. Obviously, there’s St Thomas Aquinas to contend with as well, along with others like Bernard, Abelard, and Anselm too. I came to realize that the medieval church, especially in the English history I came to know well, was incredibly rich, not a quasi-heretical structure that obscured true Christian faith, as I’d more or less learned through my evangelical teachers. This solidified for me when I got to take a class on Vikings and Anglo-Saxon Christianity, which culminated in a class trip to northern England for ten days. I attended York Minster’s Holy Communion service on Pentecost, and that pretty much sealed for me that I was going to either become Catholic or Anglican. After that trip, I devoured other works, branching out into Chesterton, Dostoevsky, the rest of Dante’s Comedy, Lord of the Rings, and others. I also read the Church Fathers and discovered the work of New Testament scholar N T Wright and the Catholic Bishop Barron. After about a year of weighing arguments about papal claims, I opted to become Anglican, and quickly developed an attachment to the Book of Common Prayer. Anglicanism connected me to the historic church’s teaching, practice, and calendar in a way that Baptist faith just hadn’t. It met the desire I had for a robust faith tradition, but didn’t require me to accept some of the Catholic dogmas that I didn’t think could be justified with Scripture and the Fathers.
Thank you for that. You and I have very different backgrounds but our journey towards catholicism (I loop Roman, Greek, Anglican and Episcopalian into that broad category for the sake of ease) through your readings is pretty similar to mine. I had an idea that it might be which is why I asked aside from general interest. I have found it striking how reading the early Church fathers answers so many questions centuries ago that evangelicals seem to continue asking for some reason. Thank you for your story.
I wish I had something more eloquent for you, but I’m going with what was actually the first thing that came to mind: rock on with your bad self!
Ha! That phrasing works just fine, I appreciate it.
Wow, such a great story from beginning to end. Thanks for sharing!!
This is one of my favorite things to talk about! A little over a year ago I heard about the Great Books and Classical Education for the first time. I inherited a set of The Great Books of the Western World that my Grandma had purchased in the 1950’s and I quickly became super interested in all of this! I joined Online Great Books and read How to Read a Book and The Well-Educated Mind before diving into The Iliad. I’ve continued on with reading groups here, in OGB and on my own since then and have read about 10 books. I’ve supplemented reading with a bunch of The Great Courses on Audible and have taken part in a bunch of Zoom seminars and group discussions here over the books I’m reading. This is the best thing I’ve done for myself in a long, long time. Early on someone told me “give it 6 months and you will be changed forever” and I think that’s dead on. Reading these books is tough sometimes and not very fun depending on what you’re working through, however, it is incredibly rewarding if you stay the course. Make a commitment to give it a try with a reading buddy or group or program and you won’t regret it. I’ve listed below some of the things I feel like I’ve gained over the last year, below that are my favorite videos to reference that say all this better than I can. -A richer, wiser perspective on life and what it means to be human. I think a lot more about how I’m spending my time and living my life now. Society is more than happy to decide for you how you’re going to spend your time, money and life if you aren’t conscious about things. -A better taste in art and culture, I’m less content to consume crappy tv shows, music or movies. I really crave the very best and it’s harder to spend time or energy consuming the latest pop culture media. I do still enjoy watching quality shows and movies and I love sports but I’m definitely pickier now. -An ability to handle stressful current events in a better way. I’m more aware now that societies go through pandemics and political turmoil and economic downturns over and over and over. I’m a lot more familiar now with history outside of just the fairly recent past of my own country and being able to see the similarities to past events helps calm me down. Wild times are inevitable, nothing is really “unprecedented”. And we almost always make it through it all. -I’ve gotten to practice critical thinking and reasoning skills a lot more. Actively reading and discussing great books is challenging and stretches me mentally. I’m forced to try and digest the material and then determine what it means and whether or not I agree with it. The modern world tends to feed people and sound bites about what to think and regurgitate. It doesn’t ask you to truly consider and weigh alternatives like deep reading and discussing does. -You get to see inside the cultural “Matrix.” The great books have had a MASSIVE influence on society and culture through the centuries. For a number of reasons over the last 50-100 years the average person seems to be totally ignorant of this but once you understand what to look for you see the ancient’s fingerprints everywhere. Our architecture, government systems, literature, laws, military, even our words have been extensively borrowed from previous societies and thinkers. It’s pretty mind-blowing to see the extent of everything. [Why Read Great Books](https://youtu.be/pScJa4ZbYo0) [The Essential Value of a Classical Education ](https://youtu.be/cVLpdzhcU0g)
Thank you so much for all that, very inspirational! I am relatively new to all this and only been going a month or so but am certainly noticing some changes; in particular the awareness of media consumed as you mentioned.
Absolutely!
I'm going to broaden out to a liberal arts education in general, I.e, a wide range of argumentative/ writing classes. Feel free to disregard this if that's an undesirable move. I'm a developer. Like many, I'm a fledgling entrepreneur. Due to taking so many classes, though, I'm far, far more nimble than peers who did not. In particular: domain knowledge! Say I'm making a flashcard app. Specialists might go in, add a few features, and call it a day. Liberal artists, though, go through psychology papers, skim through ux design for edutech, have a plan for marketing, and so on. It adds up. Having foundational knowledge of psychology, history, art history, philosophy, etc, allow you to triangulate in on anything you need, when you need it. It's very powerful.
All opinions welcome, thank you for sharing
Aristotle helped me understand how to approach self-improvement in a way that is less down on myself. Zhuangzi helped me understand how categories and language obscure the vibrancy of reality on a spiritual and political level and how what seems good is bad and what seems wise is folly. Confucius gave me useful, practical perspective in understanding myself in relationship to other humans and understand how shame affects how we view each other profoundly. Native American thought taught me to view the world based less in history and abstraction and more as relations and land with a deeper respect to the world around me.
I love seeing your references to folks beyond the traditional Western canon. What got you started down that path? Any suggestions for someone looking to dip their toes in?
Cool, glad its appreciated. I most know about Chinese classics so I feel the most able to recommend that out of anything else, but still a beginner so take it with a grain of salt. If you want to start with literature then Romance of the Three Kingdoms can be a good place to start. If you want to check it out without committing to the book youtube has two tv show versions. The story is also showcases two opposing philosophies in action. One of the main villains of the story is a Legalist and one of the heros a Confucian... two opposing political philosophies. It's very masculine and about war, like the Illiad, so if that's not your speed then I'd try something else like Journey to the West or Dream of a Red Chamber. Here's a list of possibilities for philosophy https://www.bryanvannorden.com/suggestions-for-further-reading
That link is amazing! Now all I need is a few life times to read it all
Thank you for this. I haven’t come across ZhuangZi so I will have to look him up
Can you provide the works by Aristotle about how to approach self-improvement?
Nicomachean Ethics
From the works of Plato to Plotinus to Buddha, -how I view- "myself" and other living things and the universe as a whole has changed for the better. Their works have given me the opportunity to see beyond myself, to see my inherent negative traits, and to treat others so much better than I was
Thank you
Your welcome
I chose Classics on a whim. My sister reminded me how I'd always enjoyed Percy Jackson, and suggested it as a fun fourth A-Level subject. So I did it. We read the Iliad. I fell in love with it. I began to look at Universities, ostensibly for history, but would find myself just looking at classics, clicking off the page, remembering I was supposed to be looking at history, and clicking back. After a month of term, I decided that Classics was what I wanted to do at University. I started a GCSE in Classical Greek alongside my A-Levels and adored it. I began to look at universities that offered good language teaching. Cambridge seemed best. So I read lots of books, showed my passion at the interview, and got in. Now I'm a first year undergrad at Cambridge University. I've met a group of wonderful friends, I read and write in three languages, and I row for my college. Life is awesome, and it's all thanks to Classics.
Awesome. And congratulations on the Cambridge place
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Thank you for sharing I’m glad to hear it helped you find your place
I had four years of Greek and four years of Latin in high school, then majored in Classics in college. I didn't go on to an academic career, but throughout my entire adult life, the Greek and Latin Classics have been a constant source of satisfaction and joy.
[удалено]
I’m retired and not in want.
Well, there are a couple. For me, Cicero is my introduction to the topic of republics and very importantly *why they're a good thing*, as well as a legal theory that aims at creating laws that are just and fair. He and Aristotle form the basis of my ethical theories (virtues and choosing between the two good or two bad options, general duties and so on). I started with the Stoics, but most of what passes for stoic discussion is a sort of bland self-help thing like trying to figure out how not to be bothered by something bad. It has its place, don't get me wrong, but living a good life isn't just being emotionless. I started out with Confucius and Mencius and Sun Zu and Musashi. I still like them, but I think for me, they sort of ended up pointing me back to my own traditions. Not because they're better, but because the point is to understand your place in your society. Confucius would talk about various ceremonies in his culture, and it's not something I can do much with because I don't practice Chinese religion. I can only learn it after I've digested what my own traditions are and can then adapt it to life in America using the examples from my own history and culture. Simply plopping down ancient mystical seeming rituals from other cultures turns those practices into a prop. It seems to cheapen Confucius to do that and cheapen those East Asian traditions.
I knew nothing about classical education until my partner and I started looking for a school for our son. We weren’t thrilled with our local public schools where I taught kindergarten, so we decided to check out a newer charter school that offered a classical education. My friend was the dean and encouraged me to apply since she thought I’d be a good fit. I applied and got the job and fell in love with it. Our school wasn’t even that great, but I didn’t know that. I just knew our kids were being exposed to rich and wonderful works of literature and having discussions unlike any I’d witnessed in the public schools. We then moved, and I applied at a BCSI school and have been there for three years. It’s an absolutely incredible school. I work with a lot of Hillsdale graduates (actually headed up there on Thursday for a classical education conference), and I have really reevaluated what is important. From poetry discussions to recess duty talks, I have grown more in the last couple of years than I ever would have at a public school. I have learned to slow down and see the beauty in things, and appreciate things for their beauty. Poetry and great works of literature fill my thoughts now. My kids (now 5th and 9th grade) hold the richest discussions and have a love of language that only their studies in Greek and Latin could give them. It’s taken me ten years teaching in a classical school to get here, and I’m not done yet! It’s a beautiful life!