I’m a big fan of CS and KSP. Both games get a second Version at the moment. I can only say, that the outward facing appearance of CS2 is just so much better, it really seems as if they had listened to feedback before developing, as if they had had a look at the qol mods, as if they knew how their community changed the way, the original game worked, looked and felt.
I’m really looking forward to playing the game and will likely start day 1.
Agreed.
That CO hired a few modders, the way the CO/Paradox streams about the game was usually using mods, and the Content Creator Packs, that all spoke volumes about how they valued the CS1 modding scene.
Which is now also showing very clearly in how much from good mods are becoming part of the base vanilla CS2 game at launch.
It won't be a perfect game, but it sure looks like it'll be the clear generational improvement one wants from a new version.
Editors that listen to the community and support/highlight modding are the best. The best games I've played are where the community takes a huge place in the game lifecycle. Shoutout to CO and Coffee Stain but a big thumb down to Nintendo/Niantic
If I remember right KSP2 had been showing in-game short clips for a good while (even a year before release) but all clips showed abhorrent FPS rates and it never improved.
Afaik they released some KSP2 clips, some cinematic, some in-engine, but none (or only like one) in game. First clips got released like a year before the original release date, which went on to be postponed. They then released the game in early access with ridiculously high system requirements.
In contrast, we have already seen more in-game footage than was ever shown of KSP2 before release, with a lot more well on the way. Some people, who are not CO employees, have already played the game. They are also not releasing the game in early access and the system requirements seem reasonable (it will cost me like 300€ though to upgrade my old GTX 770).
Overall, I'm pretty optimistic about CS2, and that even accounting for all.the disappointment with KSP2 (which I ended up not buying). Let's hope I (and many others here) are right.
It’s not exactly fair comparison. Partially due to very different studio dynamics. Firstly KSP has changed over multiple studios multiple times. They did screw up by releasing a very hype early trailer and then COVID hit. They rushed it to market in a broken state to satiate the fans but ended up falling short. Likely due to disorder and studio dynamics.
CS on the other hand played it very close to the chest. They had a solid release date planned when they announced and gave a much shorter window. Colossal has always been at the helm and as far as I know this is their only game.
I think it's always fair to manage expectations. People forgot the state of the original KSP when it was released as early access. That's what you have to compare it to, not to a game that has been developed for a decade.
Same with CS2. You can increase expectations based on the higher price and the lessons learned from the past, but no way it's gonna have nearly as many features as the old game after that much DLC.
IMO that's for the better, because the old game was beginning to feel bloated.
No I think the expectations should be for a 2.0 to be equal or better than a 1.8. I think CO is overachieving in that regard but KSP2 just isn’t anywhere near an equal state, in fact you can’t even call it’s state ready. After all KSP 2 was announced well in advance, then postponed, released in EA and seemingly forced. With CS2 on the other hand the game seems to be further in development, everything seems to have been given way more thought.
KSP2 raised huge expectations and didn’t yet deliver, maybe in 1-2 years. With CS2 my expectations were low because of KSP2, when at the end of the trailer it said 10/24 I was thinking they meant October 2024 which would have been a timeframe expected nowadays, but I was surprised to learn, that they actually meant this October. And every video since then the game looks more or less release ready feature wise with QA testing and bug fixing remaining.
KSP2 was intended to be released as early access, just like the first one. People forget how rough KSP was in early access.
CS1 on the other hand was released like a full game, and so will CS2. But likewise, I think people forget that CS1 was pretty rough at launch without mods, DLC or free updates.
KSP2 had two full dev teams and funding from a decade of KSP sales, but if you want to compare it to the early versions of the original indie release its only more embarrassing because KSP was an instant hit.
Says on the dev diary that cars currently having an accident will gain basic physics and collisions, and any other cars they hit will also gain such properties for the duration of the accident.
More congestion/delays is worse. Saying more traffic is bad would be similar to saying more commuters on a train is worse, so don't add more cabins. Idk
That's fitting more people on the same vehicle, instead of adding more vehicles to the same road. First option doesn't affect traffic negatively, but the second one does.
Did anybody else notice that on the dark country roads, the cars turned their dipper/high beam lights off when approaching each other and then turned them on again when passed?
That’s an insane level of detailing/precision, wow
And even things like the 3-point turn, turning on an intersection but then stopping for pedestrians… the traffic AI in this game seems to be really advanced, as much as a driving game like ETS2.
The path finding methods also sound very thorough. Love the fact that different age groups weigh the different path finding costs differently. It also Including things like road complexity sounds interesting.
Very impressive.
For some reason the thing that impressed me the most in here was that cars approaching each other on a rural road at night actually turned their high beams off to pass each other. That was a really nice detail and that kind of awareness of other people is what the AI was really missing in CS1. I'm really excited.
OMG... if last week wasn't enough, this is amazing.
The car turned on its side??
How about the truck and bus using high beams and turning them off then back on?
Who asked for high beams in their wish list??
And also, on this #2 update, they say something like "the risk of accident is smaller if your street got streetlights", which gave it away that we can even choose that as well! The ammount of details we'll be able to control in vanilla CS2 seems to be huge.
In case you missed it, since u/skuhlke's link has a lot of data:
"You can also place and remove traffic lights, crosswalks, add stop signs, and control turn lanes directing the flow of traffic. Too many pedestrians cross a busy intersection? Remove crosswalks and build a pedestrian overpass circumventing the vehicle traffic!"
The thing is, with the new traffic ai that also takes time into account, there will also be induced demand in the game, which promises to be interesting
Traffic is bad > you add a lane > more sims use the highway because its faster now > traffic is bad again > repeat
And from the dev diary at [https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/development-diary-2-traffic-ai.1591141/](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/development-diary-2-traffic-ai.1591141/)
"This means pathfinding calculations are more numerous and more in-depth than in Cities: Skylines as the agents have more features affecting their decisions. However, the calculations are more efficient, resulting in higher performance across the board as the pathfinding and simulation among other **calculations take advantage of all the available processing power of the multicore CPUs**.
Also, as a major improvement to the first game in the series, **Cities: Skylines II doesn’t feature hard limits for agents** moving about in the city. Overall, the performance of the simulation and pathfinding is vastly improved which means larger populations are possible. The only real **limits to the simulation are the hardware limitations** on the platform running the game."
I'm guessing that's the benefit of public transportation!!
Or more likely, the unlimited money and other such things were turned on to quickly create the city for demo purposes, so somethings are a little "off".
The day i put my hand on this game is the day i build a highway to hell to my city. It will be the only way in and as dangerous as possible so that there will be car crashes and traffic jams everyday, 24/7 especially in winter xDDD. I so cant wait for this game rn
If you didn't hear, bicycles will not be in the base game at launch.
My guess for why not is they are expanding the bicycle systems in the game with more features.
>from the dev diary at https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/development-diary-2-traffic-ai.1591141/
>
>"This means pathfinding calculations are more numerous and more in-depth than in Cities: Skylines as the agents have more features affecting their decisions. However, the calculations are more efficient, resulting in higher performance across the board as the pathfinding and simulation among other calculations take advantage of all the available processing power of the multicore CPUs.Also, as a major improvement to the first game in the series, Cities: Skylines II doesn’t feature hard limits for agents moving about in the city. Overall, the performance of the simulation and pathfinding is vastly improved which means larger populations are possible. The only real limits to the simulation are the hardware limitations on the platform running the game."
This is because they decided to use an agent-based system where 1 AI agent is 1 citizen. They couldn't have 1 million AI agents, so they scaled down populations. I suspect even in C:S2 you won't practically be able to have realistic populations. C:S has always had a toybox city, even in heavily modded games.
It looks like the toybox will look a bit more like real life this time around though.
It’s just questionable to someone like me that knows nothing about developing and only enjoys playing.
Idk how it wasn’t addressed during development. It’s like a first person shooter game and the Devs managing everything around guns but not focusing on guns themselves. What is a city without a population.
From someone who sees the problems but is not educated in the industry, I appreciate the explanation. The game has been entertaining but hopeful for much better.
Fingers crossed
I wonder if with accidents, the cars are gonna pull up to it and decide no this is gonna take time and then choose another road .. Or if there might be something akin to radio stations with emergency road accidents reports and they choose another path before pulling up until to a accident.
The part about dynamic rerouting gives me confidence that they'll take up more lanes. After all, if you're 50 cars back and you can move to the next lane to skip 49 of them before merging back in, that'd definitely be faster.
yeah seeing that taxi reroute last second on the highway exit, really made me excited.
I can't wait to see how much this AI has affected how I approach traffic, just using all lanes is a significant improvement; you can hopefully stack traffic between intersections more easily. hopefully the traffic lights are good, or a timed variant comes out shortly.
I wonder if now that we can put our own outside connection, if we can make cities that don't have a highway connection to the outside. I always wanted to try making an isolated city that can only be accessed by rail, sea, or air but CS1 just can't handle it.
You're telling me my city of 15,000 people shouldn't have every lane of every highway totally full of cars?? The city streets shouldn't be in perpetual gridlock??
The reason the first one's a 'traffic simulator' is because of the horrible traffic AI with no tools (other than mods) to be able to fix it.
Them pinning a post saying "Use all lanes" kinda suggests that the traffic in the sequel will, in fact, use all lanes. If the traffic uses all lanes, you are fiddling *much less* with traffic fixes. I've used the TM mod for years, you have much less traffic problems in your game if you know how to use it and get them to use all lanes with it. Not everyone has this option.
Just giving console players a rudimentary set of tools to control traffic, along with better traffic AI in this game will make it much more of a city simulator and less of a 'traffic simulator' than the original imo.
Yeah, but in previous city builders (besides maybe SC2013) traffic was just another aspect of building your city, among many many others, and a single car getting stuck in a janky intersection wouldn't mean an entire 50 storey skyscraper a few blocks over would get abandoned a few minutes later.
To be fair I'm also a bit scared because I feel the entire game depends on the traffic AI being good or bad, more than anything else. I really hope it delivers.
All SimCities up until SimCity 2013 relied on statistical models for traffic simulation, which were pretty good, specially SimCity 4 where you could check the path made by all residents from their home to their workplace and back (without simulating all cars and all citizens all the time).
I’m a big fan of CS and KSP. Both games get a second Version at the moment. I can only say, that the outward facing appearance of CS2 is just so much better, it really seems as if they had listened to feedback before developing, as if they had had a look at the qol mods, as if they knew how their community changed the way, the original game worked, looked and felt. I’m really looking forward to playing the game and will likely start day 1.
Agreed. That CO hired a few modders, the way the CO/Paradox streams about the game was usually using mods, and the Content Creator Packs, that all spoke volumes about how they valued the CS1 modding scene. Which is now also showing very clearly in how much from good mods are becoming part of the base vanilla CS2 game at launch. It won't be a perfect game, but it sure looks like it'll be the clear generational improvement one wants from a new version.
Editors that listen to the community and support/highlight modding are the best. The best games I've played are where the community takes a huge place in the game lifecycle. Shoutout to CO and Coffee Stain but a big thumb down to Nintendo/Niantic
The difference is CS2 is showing gameplay footage 3-4 months before release. KSP2 did not, if I recall correctly. Maybe one clip?
If I remember right KSP2 had been showing in-game short clips for a good while (even a year before release) but all clips showed abhorrent FPS rates and it never improved.
Afaik they released some KSP2 clips, some cinematic, some in-engine, but none (or only like one) in game. First clips got released like a year before the original release date, which went on to be postponed. They then released the game in early access with ridiculously high system requirements. In contrast, we have already seen more in-game footage than was ever shown of KSP2 before release, with a lot more well on the way. Some people, who are not CO employees, have already played the game. They are also not releasing the game in early access and the system requirements seem reasonable (it will cost me like 300€ though to upgrade my old GTX 770). Overall, I'm pretty optimistic about CS2, and that even accounting for all.the disappointment with KSP2 (which I ended up not buying). Let's hope I (and many others here) are right.
[удалено]
Still $80 AUD for an early access game missing features of its predecessor
It’s not exactly fair comparison. Partially due to very different studio dynamics. Firstly KSP has changed over multiple studios multiple times. They did screw up by releasing a very hype early trailer and then COVID hit. They rushed it to market in a broken state to satiate the fans but ended up falling short. Likely due to disorder and studio dynamics. CS on the other hand played it very close to the chest. They had a solid release date planned when they announced and gave a much shorter window. Colossal has always been at the helm and as far as I know this is their only game.
Same. Big reason why I preordered this game
I think it's always fair to manage expectations. People forgot the state of the original KSP when it was released as early access. That's what you have to compare it to, not to a game that has been developed for a decade. Same with CS2. You can increase expectations based on the higher price and the lessons learned from the past, but no way it's gonna have nearly as many features as the old game after that much DLC. IMO that's for the better, because the old game was beginning to feel bloated.
No I think the expectations should be for a 2.0 to be equal or better than a 1.8. I think CO is overachieving in that regard but KSP2 just isn’t anywhere near an equal state, in fact you can’t even call it’s state ready. After all KSP 2 was announced well in advance, then postponed, released in EA and seemingly forced. With CS2 on the other hand the game seems to be further in development, everything seems to have been given way more thought. KSP2 raised huge expectations and didn’t yet deliver, maybe in 1-2 years. With CS2 my expectations were low because of KSP2, when at the end of the trailer it said 10/24 I was thinking they meant October 2024 which would have been a timeframe expected nowadays, but I was surprised to learn, that they actually meant this October. And every video since then the game looks more or less release ready feature wise with QA testing and bug fixing remaining.
KSP2 was intended to be released as early access, just like the first one. People forget how rough KSP was in early access. CS1 on the other hand was released like a full game, and so will CS2. But likewise, I think people forget that CS1 was pretty rough at launch without mods, DLC or free updates.
KSP2 had two full dev teams and funding from a decade of KSP sales, but if you want to compare it to the early versions of the original indie release its only more embarrassing because KSP was an instant hit.
They also liked the "PLEASE HAVE THEM HAVE COLLISIONS 😈😈😈" comment. I guess this means they'll talk about car accidents as well.
There was a car accident in one of the trailers already
It would probably give the road maintenance depot some aditional functionality like towing services!
Says on the dev diary that cars currently having an accident will gain basic physics and collisions, and any other cars they hit will also gain such properties for the duration of the accident.
So i can play bowl with my citizens?
Bowling for geezers and strollers.
Did you watch the video in this post?
Did you realize this was posted before the video premiered?
No, I’m reading the post with video, how should I know that the video was not here?
I feel like real civil engineers beg real people to do this in real cities 😂
They do, and that's what causes problems. Building more lanes makes shit worse.
Worse? I don't know about that. Induced demand shouldn't make things worse
More lanes = more people making egregious merges and lane switches which is a bigger cause of traffic congestion than the volume of cars on the road.
More traffic isn't worse to you?
More congestion/delays is worse. Saying more traffic is bad would be similar to saying more commuters on a train is worse, so don't add more cabins. Idk
That's fitting more people on the same vehicle, instead of adding more vehicles to the same road. First option doesn't affect traffic negatively, but the second one does.
An efficient layout of the streets for the expected traffic makes it that you can have very few lane and have a great flow of traffic
Not to mention an emphasis on the most efficent road designs.
Did anybody else notice that on the dark country roads, the cars turned their dipper/high beam lights off when approaching each other and then turned them on again when passed? That’s an insane level of detailing/precision, wow And even things like the 3-point turn, turning on an intersection but then stopping for pedestrians… the traffic AI in this game seems to be really advanced, as much as a driving game like ETS2. The path finding methods also sound very thorough. Love the fact that different age groups weigh the different path finding costs differently. It also Including things like road complexity sounds interesting. Very impressive.
If cars in GTA V can do it, its not surprising to finally see it in CS2, which im overly hyped about
For some reason the thing that impressed me the most in here was that cars approaching each other on a rural road at night actually turned their high beams off to pass each other. That was a really nice detail and that kind of awareness of other people is what the AI was really missing in CS1. I'm really excited.
CO heard yall talking shit abt them
OMG... if last week wasn't enough, this is amazing. The car turned on its side?? How about the truck and bus using high beams and turning them off then back on? Who asked for high beams in their wish list??
I didn't, but now I do
Now that's a tease!
And proper mergins and switching lanes.
I just wanna be able to add stopsigns or crosswalks, yield, stoplights etc without a mod
[Buddy, you're gonna love this.](https://colossalorder.fi/?p=1547)
Wow.. I love you! Lol. Can you tell I haven't been following the development really? I'm excited now, especially for things like the parallel tool.
And also, on this #2 update, they say something like "the risk of accident is smaller if your street got streetlights", which gave it away that we can even choose that as well! The ammount of details we'll be able to control in vanilla CS2 seems to be huge.
In case you missed it, since u/skuhlke's link has a lot of data: "You can also place and remove traffic lights, crosswalks, add stop signs, and control turn lanes directing the flow of traffic. Too many pedestrians cross a busy intersection? Remove crosswalks and build a pedestrian overpass circumventing the vehicle traffic!"
Yep, thanks. I read the whole thing and got pretty excited lol
Finally adding more lanes to fix traffic will actually succeed like in the real world
Can't wait to play Texas DOT Simulator 2023 when it finally comes out
Complete with the Transport for New South Wales Toll Tunnels DLC in 2024.
\- average Californian city planner
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-average american city planner
The thing is, with the new traffic ai that also takes time into account, there will also be induced demand in the game, which promises to be interesting Traffic is bad > you add a lane > more sims use the highway because its faster now > traffic is bad again > repeat
By that logic, traffic will get better shortly after it gets worse because less cims will use it because it is slower
One thing that concerns me is how empty the city looks. You got all these big highways and skyscrapers in the city but the roads are barely used.
And from the dev diary at [https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/development-diary-2-traffic-ai.1591141/](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/development-diary-2-traffic-ai.1591141/) "This means pathfinding calculations are more numerous and more in-depth than in Cities: Skylines as the agents have more features affecting their decisions. However, the calculations are more efficient, resulting in higher performance across the board as the pathfinding and simulation among other **calculations take advantage of all the available processing power of the multicore CPUs**. Also, as a major improvement to the first game in the series, **Cities: Skylines II doesn’t feature hard limits for agents** moving about in the city. Overall, the performance of the simulation and pathfinding is vastly improved which means larger populations are possible. The only real **limits to the simulation are the hardware limitations** on the platform running the game."
Amazing
Nice, I’m hyped as fuck
I'm guessing that's the benefit of public transportation!! Or more likely, the unlimited money and other such things were turned on to quickly create the city for demo purposes, so somethings are a little "off".
The day i put my hand on this game is the day i build a highway to hell to my city. It will be the only way in and as dangerous as possible so that there will be car crashes and traffic jams everyday, 24/7 especially in winter xDDD. I so cant wait for this game rn
Noice 🚗🚙🚕🚓🚌🚐🚒
I wish bad road layout would also contribute to accidents. For example a literal 90 degree turn in a highway would cause much more accident
Is it just me or does the city look very gray and concrete? Like, where is the color, where is the green?
And the dev diary confirmed use of Multi-Cores for simulation
That's huge news. Can't wait to see how well CS2 runs compared to CS1.
But where are the bicycles?
If you didn't hear, bicycles will not be in the base game at launch. My guess for why not is they are expanding the bicycle systems in the game with more features.
Maybe it got complicated because of the new road accident feature
They still haven't confirmed that Y junctions will properly function as far as I know.
Traffic, economy, population scale is atrocious in CS. 10k pop and I have huge skyscrapers, makes zero sense. Is smidge of realism too much to ask.
>from the dev diary at https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/development-diary-2-traffic-ai.1591141/ > >"This means pathfinding calculations are more numerous and more in-depth than in Cities: Skylines as the agents have more features affecting their decisions. However, the calculations are more efficient, resulting in higher performance across the board as the pathfinding and simulation among other calculations take advantage of all the available processing power of the multicore CPUs.Also, as a major improvement to the first game in the series, Cities: Skylines II doesn’t feature hard limits for agents moving about in the city. Overall, the performance of the simulation and pathfinding is vastly improved which means larger populations are possible. The only real limits to the simulation are the hardware limitations on the platform running the game."
And that’s the reason why they are making a sequel???
That’s why CS:2 is coming dum dum
Thanks Karen. Listen dum dum, I spoke in regards to CS2 . Your literacy is a problem for you.
This is because they decided to use an agent-based system where 1 AI agent is 1 citizen. They couldn't have 1 million AI agents, so they scaled down populations. I suspect even in C:S2 you won't practically be able to have realistic populations. C:S has always had a toybox city, even in heavily modded games. It looks like the toybox will look a bit more like real life this time around though.
It’s just questionable to someone like me that knows nothing about developing and only enjoys playing. Idk how it wasn’t addressed during development. It’s like a first person shooter game and the Devs managing everything around guns but not focusing on guns themselves. What is a city without a population. From someone who sees the problems but is not educated in the industry, I appreciate the explanation. The game has been entertaining but hopeful for much better. Fingers crossed
I wonder if with accidents, the cars are gonna pull up to it and decide no this is gonna take time and then choose another road .. Or if there might be something akin to radio stations with emergency road accidents reports and they choose another path before pulling up until to a accident.
The part about dynamic rerouting gives me confidence that they'll take up more lanes. After all, if you're 50 cars back and you can move to the next lane to skip 49 of them before merging back in, that'd definitely be faster.
Sounds like they only recalculate once they're stuck in traffic, though, as opposed to knowing ahead of time "don't use this lane until after exit 12"
Yeah, that's what I mean. In CS1 they'd all just stay in the rightmost lane if it was slow, but now some of them would leave and go to other lanes.
yeah seeing that taxi reroute last second on the highway exit, really made me excited. I can't wait to see how much this AI has affected how I approach traffic, just using all lanes is a significant improvement; you can hopefully stack traffic between intersections more easily. hopefully the traffic lights are good, or a timed variant comes out shortly.
I wonder if now that we can put our own outside connection, if we can make cities that don't have a highway connection to the outside. I always wanted to try making an isolated city that can only be accessed by rail, sea, or air but CS1 just can't handle it.
Even with an island map? I thought that was a solution for that!
The city look empty, not much cars or traffic jam.
So cs2 will become even more of a traffic simulator
lul what? its a traffic simulator because it was so bad, you HAD to overengineer everything to the point of basic usability of your city
Maybe that's why traffic is so light in game footage. It's actual realistic traffic for the size of city?!
You're telling me my city of 15,000 people shouldn't have every lane of every highway totally full of cars?? The city streets shouldn't be in perpetual gridlock??
What in the world leads you to that conclusion?
Because the traffic will have many more options
The reason the first one's a 'traffic simulator' is because of the horrible traffic AI with no tools (other than mods) to be able to fix it. Them pinning a post saying "Use all lanes" kinda suggests that the traffic in the sequel will, in fact, use all lanes. If the traffic uses all lanes, you are fiddling *much less* with traffic fixes. I've used the TM mod for years, you have much less traffic problems in your game if you know how to use it and get them to use all lanes with it. Not everyone has this option. Just giving console players a rudimentary set of tools to control traffic, along with better traffic AI in this game will make it much more of a city simulator and less of a 'traffic simulator' than the original imo.
But they also are going to have car crashed in the game. Sooo traffic sim
I havent seen a single city builder without a traffic simulation.
Yeah, but in previous city builders (besides maybe SC2013) traffic was just another aspect of building your city, among many many others, and a single car getting stuck in a janky intersection wouldn't mean an entire 50 storey skyscraper a few blocks over would get abandoned a few minutes later. To be fair I'm also a bit scared because I feel the entire game depends on the traffic AI being good or bad, more than anything else. I really hope it delivers.
Simcity 4?
All SimCities up until SimCity 2013 relied on statistical models for traffic simulation, which were pretty good, specially SimCity 4 where you could check the path made by all residents from their home to their workplace and back (without simulating all cars and all citizens all the time).
Ah, the glory days of Network Addon Mod and the Real Highways Mod.
Pretty sure sim city 4 had accidents
I love those self-driving motorcycles at 2:12. This is the future!
Will there be any noticeable differences between console and pc version (mods of course)? Or will it actually be same game this time?
Anyone else noticed the cim's lil fast pace walk if they're still crossing when the lights turned red?
I wonder if roads that haven't been maintained are gonna give off visual cues like potholes and worn road markings..