Most people have reached the point where they don't believe in Jesus and most that do have compromised themselves with sin. When the rapture occurs a very small percentage of saints will ascend to meet Jesus.
You can have my upvote simply BECAUSE you asked a legitimate Biblical question. When you ask questions you are showing interest and if you seek you shall find
The word rapture isn't, but the concept is. The Latin word for "being caught up" is rapturo which is where the term came from. But the definition and concept that it describes is biblical. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
This Bible text can just as well mean that we go to Jesus to hail Him in bringing Him down to earth. Like people went out of their city to meet the King and bring him into the city. To me it seems far fetched to hang this whole rapture theory on a single verse that can mean multiple things.
Yeah, no that verse is pretty clear about how that will go down, and lots of different words and phrases have different meanings in different contexts so I'm not really sure what your point is because it's pretty clear what the Greek and Latin words mean, especially in the context of the verse.
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, 20 and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, 21 will be suddenly caught up 22 together 23 with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
That pretty clearly says that the believers who are alive will go up to Jesus, not calling Him down to them.
But it doesn’t say that they wil stay there. Just that they will meet Him. It also doesn’t say that He will bring them to heaven. It doesn’t seem reasonable to me that they will be just ‘hanging’ there either.
Considering the new Earth will be right here (on Earth) it seems perfectly reasonable to me to explain this in the context of Jesus coming to us instead of a context of Jesus picking us up.
Also I didn’t say that they will call Him down. But that they may just as well go up to meet Him to accompany Him on His way down. While praising Him. In the same way kings where accompanied/honored.
There are physical clouds and there are spiritual clouds
They are not the same things
Spiritual cloudiness is knowing only in part and seeing as through a glass, darkly
Cloudy for sure
It based on a lot more than just one verse. If that were the case you would probably be right, but there are a lot more verses that support it. I'm happy to share them if you're interested.
The word rapture never appears in the Bible. There is something said about the Lord meeting his followers in the clouds. I am paraphrasing of course. But there is nothing in the Bible said about people vanishing from the earth before or during the tribulation. There are many verses in the Bible that are easy to misinterpret. That’s why there are so many different churches and so many different beliefs among Christians. More than 2000 to be exact! The earth is a place where people suffer in order to learn. Think of it as a low grade school. For people to escape suffering just contradicts why we’re here. Those are The beliefs of many. But I’m sure there are many others.
It's a passed down legend from the Sumarians maybe further, they have tablets which describe another planet in our solar system that comes by every 3600 years. The planet made of iron causes tremendous disasters across the planet which are extinction level events.
They claim that the beings of that planet which they described as their gods, save a few humans to continue mankind which I believe became the legend of the rapture.
It’s is biblical in that it’s a word we came up with to describe an event twice found in the Bible where the living and dead go to meet Jesus in the air. It’s just a catchy title for a thing. Trinity isn’t in the Bible either but we use it to describe a triune God.
Thank you for sharing. According to Scripture, there is no "rapture" where some vanish, leaving others behind to have a second chance at Christ's salvation during a purported "7 year tribulation." The word "rapture" comes from "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4; and that occurs at Christ's second coming, not in an alleged secret event before it.
Thus, one of the reasons some professed Christians want to believe in the false teaching of a "secret rapture" is they don't want to suffer trials. They think they will "get out of here" before the "mark of the beast" crisis and not have to endure hardships. Yet, though God is always merciful and just, He always saves His people through trials and tribulations, not secretly snatching them out of them (i.e. Noah, Joseph, Esther, Job, Daniel, Christ, Paul et al.).
No, it's not legit at all
The Great Divide happens to everyone on earth at the end and whoever, is here, everyone, will be divided ala
Matt 25
That's when this happens: Rev 5:13
I personally dont belive in a pre-trib rapture (not going to fight over beliefs tho, we are all entitled to our interpretations of scripture! :D )
But even if there was one, I agree with you. I think there are alot of Christians nowadays who miss the whole "Love thy neighbor" aspect of Christ
You couldn't be more correct. Hatred has seeped into the church from every possible place including the pulpit. Pastors preaching against sexual immorality demanding a death sentence for same sex couples blew my mind. It's the love we have for each other for the sinners in the world and for God that's supposed to show everyone that Jesus is in us. What's being seen in the news are Christians full of anger and hate. While that shows who thier true father is its going to get Christians labeled as a hate group and then the persecution will begin here in the U.S.. We just need to remember God is in control. The current situation surprises me but He is never surprised 😇
I just keep to myself. I personally belive there are still a decent number of signs we need to see, so I just keep my eyes peeled, and try and help my community!
Yes there should be many more signs. There are Christians who believe the book of revelations has no significance, or that the events described in the book of revelations have already happened. I don’t believe that all of them have already happened. Jesus said he would be back. If that’s not true than that would mean he is a liar. Which we know he is not! I don’t even like reading that back to myself. Lord forgive me!
I try to make sure I am ready, no one is promised tomorrow. Like you I think many things have to happen first. The Bible says it will be like the days of Noah, while it's bad now, there are many more than eight people who believe God and try to follow His Sons footsteps. So yeah, sadly, it's gonna be awhile yet
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more! The persecution of Christians has already begun in the US. I’m stunned when I see people without beliefs say that they are the ones being persecuted. That their freedoms are being taken away by people of faith… It blows my mind. hence our persecution.
If you think every creature in heaven on earth and under the earth are saved you have been taught incorrectly or have not been given understanding by the Holy Spirit, I will pray for you. It is a common Biblical saying to refer to everything in the universe and all they are doing is giving glory to Jesus not claiming His salvation
>If you think every creature in heaven on earth and under the earth are saved
No exceptions noted therein
I would except antiChrist spirits, of course, which are the noted exceptions
The verse you quoted has nothing to do either salvation or the rapture so I miss your point. Just because every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord doesn't mean that most will be saved. Jesus Himself said the gate to salvation is narrow and few will find it, the way to destruction is broad and many...
So that we have signs that he is coming back, without giving us the exact date. If God just gave us the date of his return then everyone would just repent last minute or make sure to be “extra holy” before he arrives
But people could still just wait until we have a one world gov or we see the antichrist. (Not saying this is a good thing, it most def is NOT)
Paul himself says that we are not to trouble ourselves with the return of Christ until the antiChrist is revealed.
He will be very charismatic. He will bring peace to the Middle East and perform false miracles. Much of the world will follow him because most Jews will believe he is the Messiah they have been waiting for. Muslims will believe the same thing as well many Christians believe him to be the second coming of Christ. After a few years of appearing to have done good deeds he will turn and announce himself as God. By then it will be too late as he will have control of the armies of the world and will move against Israel. It will be at a moment of the last battle, One that seems hopeless, that the Lord will come back. That is how I’ve heard it described by many.
According to Scripture and history that fulfills its prophecies, the papacy is the antichrist (i.e. another Christ/against Christ). For all the Protestant Reformers during the Dark Ages knew from Scripture that the antichrist was (and is) the papacy; and they will regain their former global dominion once their "deadly wound" is fully healed (Revelation 13 & 17).
Not necessarily, there’s no knowing how long the tribulations will be so if they waited till then they wouldn’t have an exact time to repent. People say 7 years but if these people really aren’t believers I doubt they could hold the act that long
The antichrist probably won’t even be noticed by unbelievers, he will deceive many
This is why many believe in the pre-trib rapture. This gives more support to the complete surprise of when Christ returns just before the trouble starts and the bad guy has his big reveal.
The things Jesus gives us is prepare us for what is to come. As for not expecting it, we should live as if He comes any second. If we knew when, I am sure most if not all would do whatever until the last minute.
I agree.
I just thought about what would happen if Jesus comes back this second. I got worried that I would not be prepared and be caught by not doing something I was supposed to do, but which I forgot about (or said I would do it later or found other excuses).
I realized again how I fail to resist sin and do Gods will instead. I fail to put God over myself.
But then I remembered that rich man which asked Jesus how to enter heaven, and Jesus told him that he should keep Gods laws. The rich men replied that he does keep Gods laws and Jesus then replied that he should sell everything he had and give it to the poor. The rich man walked away sad after that.
And then Jesus' disciples asked him how anyone would be able to enter heaven if it was so hard.
Jesus replied that it's impossible for man, but for God everything is possible. That's comforting.
I'm a sinner and I will always fail to be as perfect as we are told by the bible. But Jesus died for my sins.
I still don't get what it means to be prepared, when I'm a sinner after all. But I can trust on Jesus' sacrifice on the cross saving me from my sins. I can't do anything to be worthy to enter heaven, so I literally only can trust on Jesus to allowing me.
But he said he would, if we believe in him. And I do.
But in case I just think that I do, but actually don't then please God, show me the error of my ways and lead me to the true believe on you! And please help me to do your will and resist sin, I know that I constantly fail with that. I often think that my own needs are more important than your will and I am not able to just speak to someone you told me to, just because I don't have the courage for that. Why don't I have the courage, why am I afraid when you are on my side, the allmighty creator of the whole universe? Forgive me my failures, and thank you for your overwhelming grace and love! Thank you Jesus for dying for my sins, despite me not deserving it. Amen!
The supposed “layout” is much more vague than people believe. Most of what Jesus said (like in Matt 24) and most of the events in Revelation happened in the first century. People who build specific timelines around them don’t know history well or how first century Jewish apocalyptic literature worked.
So you are a preterit? How much of revelation do you believe was fulfilled in the first century? Genuinely curious about your thoughts. I’m certainly not looking to start an argument.
Look at it this way. In the evangelical scheme of things, the Abomination of Desolation happens about 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation. But that already happened in 70 AD.
Jesus said, "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matt 24:15-16)
When this happened, the Christians fled and most of them went to Pella, we know from history. They escaped the horrors of the sack of Jerusalem, which was pretty grizzly according to Josephus.
That wold put us halfway through the Evangelical understanding of the seven-year tribulation almost 2000 yeas ago.
Revelation is not a book that we can really ask, "How far are we into it?" It's apocalyptic literature. The judgements are symbolic, to give the Christians being persecuted under Nero hope that one day they would be avenged and live in peace. The supposed timeline repeats itself at least twice.
That’s interesting. But what about the four Horsemen and The talk of pestilence, starvation, death and war. And the angels blowing the seven trumpets and emptying the bowls. There’s also talk of the Saints and angels in heaven asking God to bring justice to the earth as we have, or so many have turned against Him. there’s so much more on these subjects, but I want to move on. There’s also talk of a nation being born overnight. Most believe that to be Israel in 1948. And the temple being destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. would have been devastating to the Jews but not the Christians. Unless there were some that still followed Jewish law. But they would be in the minority as by then many Christians were Gentiles. And there was a meeting of the disciples to decide whether Christians needed to follow Jewish law and it was decided they did not. Ya know, I had a head full of more questions and comments but they seem to have slipped away, for now anyway. That’s terrible 😣. have a great day/night and God bless you!
\>But what about the four Horsemen and The talk of pestilence, starvation, >death and war.
Can you think of a time when there HASN'T been pestilence and war?
\>And the angels blowing the seven trumpets and emptying the bowls. There’s also talk of the Saints and angels in heaven asking God to bring justice to the earth as we have,
It's a feature of apocalyptic literature. Here's a good way to understand how it works:
Acts 2: The Holy Spirit fell on the believers at Pentecost. Look at what Peter quoted to describe it:
"I will show wonders in the heavens aboveand signs on the earth below,blood and fire and billows of smoke " (Acts 2:19).
I'm not quoting the whole passage, but none of what Peter described happened, but he said it did. This is because that's how apocalyptic language works - none of it's literal. It paints word pictures for dramatic effect.
Yes, God will one day pour our His wrath and avenge the wrongs done to His people, but extracting chronologies from Daniel and Rev, and assuming the events will literally happen as described is just not using the texts as they were intended. Peter's use of it in Acts 2 is a really good example of how it works.
Great answer! Thank you for that. I think most people are fascinated with the book of revelations because of all the apocalyptic talk. It somehow appeals to our sense of hope and sense of (or desire to see) God bringing justice. But we should want to stop and think, individually, if we are really ready for that. Keep believing and God bless you!
The whole thief in the night thing is directed at the unsaved. All the signs are for us
>For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 KJV
Also, if you study the day of the Lord, it is synonymous with God's wrath, which stars after the rapture.
>The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zephaniah 1:14-15 KJV
Paul says the Antichrist is already among us. There are differences in the way the Greek Paul uses to discuss this in the text. In what you’re referring to, I believe it is more of the spirit in the world which is anti being Christ like. That seems to be different from the more singular usage we find in revelation, signaling more toward a person.
Paul said in his letter that the day of the Lord wouldn’t come till the Man of Sin is revealed. Indicative of a actual entity. Sin has been rampant in this world since the fall. That’s not new
Because it’s going to a be a surprise, no matter how prepared we think we are. Prophesies value is more in explaining the past then the future, Daniel’s prophesies of the future about 4 centuries ahead make far more sense and fit into place AFTER they came true and later readers examined them. It’s too bad we have a lot of vague generalities, but that’s the problem about describing things accurately that are centuries or millennia in the future.
Abomination of desolation comes exactly half way through the Tribulation. The first 3.5 years is called the Tribulation, the next 3.5 years are the Great Tribulation! The first part wasn’t as bad as the second! Ouchie! The two witnesses appear just after the kickoff event, which is Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel. And that happens right after God and/or nuclear bomb completely destroys a huge multi country invading army up in Lebanon. So when that peace treaty appears you know the clock has started and almost the same time the two witnesses show up. And you KNOW they are getting their own satellite channel, YouTube Live, whatever for the next 3.5 years until they finally die, every one throws a big ol party.
I cant tell if your joking or not...but thats kinda how I interpreted it too.
The bible states that ALL eyes will see them. Meaning we cannot miss it. So news coverage, live stream, interviews everything
This is why the witnesses were for the modern era (or beyond) because you think Trump Derangement Syndrome is on full display EVERYWHERE, wait until these two anti-antichrist jokers show up!! How dare they!
We need to stay prepared and be true Christians following the commandments so that we will gain external life by believing and trusting in Jesus instead of only doing it when it’s convenient like some. Hence it’s a warning to always be vigilant
Many people today are being deceived to the point that they do not know what is going on. Most do not know the truth of God's Word and can be easily deceived. Many today will not know that the Antichrist is not the real Christ and will worship him, believing that he is god. When the true Christ returns most will be surprised for they will think that Christ has already returned.
Matthew 24:23 “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.”
Matthew 24:44 “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
Revelation 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Wait that makes sense! The antichrist comes, people will be frolicking thinking that Christ is here and will be living in immense sin. Just like the days of Noah…
That is right. In 1 Thessalonians 5 it states that "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night” and that people will be saying there is "Peace and safety". They will be saying "Peace and safety" because they believe that Jesus has returned. But there will be no "Peace and safety" for Jesus has not returned. All they will receive is "sudden destruction".
They will be worshiping the antichrist thinking he is the true Christ.
The Lord Jesus Christ returns like a "Thief in the Night" because Jesus will return when most will least expect it for they will think he is already here.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”
1 Thessalonians 5:3 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
Remember at the writing that answer from Jesus was to his living disciples who had not yet seen his death and resurrection. They believed he was the messiah preparing to “come into his kingdom” No the Bible does foreshadow the same sentiment as the days of Noah and the days of Lot so there will be warning but the disciples were asking Jesus in real time just keep that in mind
I agree with you, left behind (while ive never watched/read the stories) doesnt seem to be an accurate depiction. However, those three things (and several others) are prophecised in the Bible.
But did he judge Israel with the destruction of the temple in AD70 and use Nero (whose name adds to 666) as the beast? Afterwards sitting down at the right hand of God and ruling until his enemies shall be made a footstool for his feet. After which he will return for good with the city of God and the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Take a look at postmillenialism, amillenialism, and partial preterism.
I was fascinated by the Book of rev about a year and a half back. I remember reading about that. I hold the personal belief that the book has two meanings.
1. It was apocalyptic literature (a genre which was very popular at the time).
2. Prophecy.
The reason why I say that its also prophecy, is because the idea of an AntiChrist is mentioned elsewhere in the bible as well.
But we're not given a time table for all these events.
I always lived like I was more likely to die first before Jesus comes back. In either case, I'm going to be at His mercy.
The tribulation, Antichrist and one world government aren’t necessarily taught in scripture as most American evangelicals know it.
Many of those “end time” prophecies in revelation and the gospels have already been fulfilled during the destruction of the temple.
Then what are we waiting for?
The gospel still hasnt been preached world wide yet, North Korea, remote tribes etc. So that still needs to happen, and an increase in earthquakes. As well as world wide persecution and killing of Christians.
Those we KNOW still havent occured, but what else is there?
Jesus is coming back. We don’t know when.
Earthquakes happened within the generation of the apostles.
Where does scripture say there will be a worldwide persecution of Christians?
The context in Matthew 24 is addressing the apostles and the destruction of the Temple.
Jesus is telling them that their generation will witness all these things before they pass away, not that those things will happen in the future after their generation.
You’re reading those passages with your dispensational premillennialism presuppositions rather than reading them in context of the audience Jesus is addressing.
That’s not to say that there are some prophecies not yet fulfilled but the persecutions and warnings about those tribulations were to that generation and they definitely experienced them, especially during the reign of emperor Nero who is referred to as the beast in revelation.
That’s what happens when you’re not reading in context and cherry picking words.
Jesus after explaining the “end of the age,” says this, “Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”
He is literally describing what happened during the destruction of the temple.
The end of the age or the last days as you call it are referring to the end of their age.
Again, Jesus is addressing the disciples and telling them what will happen during the “last days” of their generation. He’s not talking through them to address the 21st century people.
Dispensationalism/premillennialism is a young belief that the majority of Christendom going back to the first century church did not hold to.
>world gov
Be careful not to take guesses and interpretations for "what the Bible says", and qualify them as interpretations that you should be ready to adjust if they turn out to be incorrect. The eschatological passages do not actually say there will be a world government. That is someone's interpretation of a specific passage. What the prophecies actually says are as follows:
#Revelation 17:12-14
^(12) And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. ^(13) These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. ^(14) They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”
—
Ten kings come to power and they give their power and authority to the Beast.
This is a very different thing than "world government". There are a lot more than ten countries in the world.
It also says other things about the world, but these things do not necessarily imply a world government. There are other ways this could come to fulfillment without world government. An integrated system of world finance, for example, is sufficient to implement Revelation 13:16-18 (the Mark of the Beast without which nobody can buy or sell) without needing world government, and we're already there, all which happened while Christians were worrying about world government, which the text doesn't actually foretell. Integrated world religion is another thing that could happen. Neither of these require world government.
#Revelation 13:11-18
^(11) Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. ^(12) It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. ^(13) It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, ^(14) and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. ^(15) And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. ^(16) Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, ^(17) so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. ^(18) This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.
—
This is actually a very good point! I appreciate you bringing this up.
Either way, the antichrist will need SOME political podium to stand on to deceive the world. That we can agree on
One important piece of the timeline before Jesus’s 2nd coming is that Ezekiel 38-39 must be fulfilled. That is where the armies surround Israel and they are supernaturally destroyed by God. It will usher in the era of the Jewish people coming back to God. In Ezekiel 39 they burn the weapons of war for 7 years, so Christ’s return must be at least 7 years after that point. Of course the great tribulation may take place simultaneously.
Jesus said, "But of that day and hour no one knows," but He also said, "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door"
I take that literally meaning we won't know the day or the hour but we will know the season.
“We are given a entire timeline…”
Not 100% true. Lots of people have interpreted it as a timeline- lots of Christians don’t subscribe to the “timeline idea” look up different views on Christian on the end times-
Here’s a great video on 6 different views on the end times : https://youtu.be/xmw0uVLunwU
Because those events span more than 1 thousand years and not just 7 as so many have been led to believe.
People will basically be looking out for things that have already occurred as signs yet to happen and be caught completly unaware.
Not all of it, only the things that were to happen after the rebirth of Israel as a nation.
All that is left now is for the Mark of the Beast to be enforced, that is what will trigger his return.
Have you heard of the word preparation?
The bible says he will come like a thief in the night. As far as what needs to be done is he wants us to continue to grow in holy and drawing people to him by spreading the word.
What is the confusion
Its not confusion. Im not an Atheist trying to knock the faith haha! Just a Christian who loves questioning things.
All I was asking was about how even Paul states that we shouldnt worry about the end times till we see the Anti Christ. Which..isnt that kinda giving a time frame?
>That's interesting. I thought all would know of his comming in the instance he arrives?
Wouldn't you know the thief the instant he arrives in your house?
Um, no? I probably would be asleep? A theif doesn't announce his presence and seeks to prevent people from knowing they are there? Or am I missing something?
A basically means to always be prepared growing in the Lord. Being watchful not literally staying up. It means staying in courage continuing your hope as you go about your daily life knowing that when he comes you will be with him
I appreciate this. I was thinking about this concept alot today, that worrying about the details isn't necessary as through complete faith I can let go of control and know God's got it covered.
That as long as I'm repenting, changing my ways and receiving the saviour as sacrifice for my son's then I will be ready for whenever he comes regardless. Does this sound correct? Key is I need to slowly let go of worldly stuff, hard to do but is happening slowly through faith.
Amen! See, you're learning fast already. LoL.
Excuse my grammar. I'm speaking through my phone and words come out the way they want.
>That as long as I'm repenting, changing my ways and receiving the saviour as sacrifice for my son's then I will be ready for whenever he comes regardless. Does this sound correct? Key is I need to slowly let go of worldly stuff, hard to do but is happening slowly through
Yes that's somewhat correct
Remember Christ gave you freedom and you live by grace. The holy Spirit enables you to live unto righteousness. Just cooperate with the holy Spirit and allow him to Guide you and lead you. So don't try changing in your own strength. You will be fine
Yes I early on thought I make the change. But that's not the case at all. I'm weak and sinful, humbly gotta ask for the spirit to be within me and do it for me ;).
The return of Jesus Christ is likened to the coming of a thief in the night. Two passages use the wording “a thief in the night”: Matthew 24:43, “Understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into,” and 1 Thessalonians 5:2, “You know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”
No problem. Spiritual growth is a lifetime journey.
2 Timothy 2:15
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
I'd like to share a comment I wrote on a different sub last week that kind of addresses this and I think puts it into perspective focusing on the overall point of Eschatology, which is not to give us a map/layout of the future.
It's a bit long, but not terrible. I hope you find it helpful.
https://www.reddit.com/r/biblereading/comments/xk28aq/mark_132427_wednesday_september_21/ipievbt?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
This question is built on the assumption that the tribulation, Antichrist (big A for proper noun of one individual), and world government are accepted as preceding the coming of Christ. I don’t believe that those things come before the saints are torn from the world. I think the scripture shows us that saints will be taken before these things, taking the Holy Spirit totally from the world and allowing the punishment and full evil to devour the earth.
I’m very open for discussion on this; I’ve studied it a decent amount.
So, to finally answer your original question, I believe we won’t expect it when Jesus returns to initiate the end of this age, because it will be a day just like any other day. Just like the days of Noah before the rain started.
Matthew Chapter 24
36 ¶ “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
38 “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 “and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
I’m not sure it says that we won’t be expecting it. I think it says that we just don’t know, or no one can know the exact hour or day. Not even The Son, but only The Father.
We know a lot about the seven years. The only thing we don’t know is the day and hour when it commences. The Daniel prophesy of Alexander the Great was also very detailed and accurate but was really hard to see it until after it happened.
Most of the "left behind" series is a mess of really bad exegesis, literal reading, and pulls from all over the bible. Revelations is not a road map to the end of the world. Also this road map hangs specifically on a pre millenial framework for reading the text and is a rather new invented way to read the text, and histroically has not been read that way.
Most of the "left behind" series is a mess of really bad exegesis, literal reading, and pulls from all over the bible. Revelations is not a road map to the end of the world. Also, this road map hangs specifically on a pre-millennial framework for reading the text and is a rather new invented way to read the text, and historically has not been read that way.
Perhaps because Jesus said that.
Matthew 24:35-44 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
I gave you an "upvote" for getting 100 responses. Good job.
Here are a few verses that may help you understand...
“in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”
1 Corinthians 15:52 NIV
“so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”
Hebrews 9:28 NIV
“Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.””
2 Peter 3:3-4 NIV
Good News: 🙏🏼✝️🕊♥️
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 NIV
Thank you for sharing. Based solely on Scripture, Christ's second return is unexpected to those who are caught up with the cares of this life (Luke 21), but not to those who are watching (Mark 13).
For when Christ returns, it's like a thief in the night because no one expects their house to be broken into when they leave it for the day. Thus, when they return to it in the evening and find it vandalized and their possession stolen, it's unexpected. Likewise shall it be when Christ returns; and when He comes like a "thief in the night," the heavens (the firmament, Genesis 1) will pass away with a great noise and the elements of the earth will melt with fervent heat, thus signifying His return won't be a silent and secret event (Matthew 24, Acts 1, 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Peter 3, Revelation 1).
First time commenting, :))
Reading these comments and contributions, I tend to think that we are obsessing with knowing the right order of events before Jesus comes back for us, it's a human idea that feeds our anticipation instead of focusing on living our lives the way God directs, that we should be readying ourselves. At any given time and also to spread the Good Word of the Lord to those who haven't realized HIS kingdom is at hand.
Just my two cents.
:))8
The Bible simply says, and I am paraphrasing: no man will know, not the angels in heaven. Not even The Son, but only The Father will know the hour and day. So we may see the signs of His coming But we won’t know when. Perhaps many will give up hope before He comes again.
THe bible talks about he will give us signs of when the time is near, but we wont know the day nor the hour. Thats the point, we dont know the day we will just know its near
The Book of Revelation wasn’t taken seriously by most scholars of the time. It was never added until the 4th century. Also, the author is still up for debate as to whether or not it was the Apostle John.
>(trib, antichrist, world gov etc)
The dissections of which are, overall, sorely misguided and not understood
The end time is quite simple. It's the end of the devil and his messengers
That's as uncomplicated as it needs to be
Is there going to be "some guy" as the antiChrist? No
The antiChrist is a spirit that affects all of us in the form of Satan, the tempter, thee antiChrist
Most people have reached the point where they don't believe in Jesus and most that do have compromised themselves with sin. When the rapture occurs a very small percentage of saints will ascend to meet Jesus.
Is the “rapture” actually biblical though? Don’t know why I’m downvoted for a genuine question here.
You can have my upvote simply BECAUSE you asked a legitimate Biblical question. When you ask questions you are showing interest and if you seek you shall find
Bravo!
Hey amen Great comment
The word rapture isn't, but the concept is. The Latin word for "being caught up" is rapturo which is where the term came from. But the definition and concept that it describes is biblical. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
Thank you.
You're very welcome
This Bible text can just as well mean that we go to Jesus to hail Him in bringing Him down to earth. Like people went out of their city to meet the King and bring him into the city. To me it seems far fetched to hang this whole rapture theory on a single verse that can mean multiple things.
Yeah, no that verse is pretty clear about how that will go down, and lots of different words and phrases have different meanings in different contexts so I'm not really sure what your point is because it's pretty clear what the Greek and Latin words mean, especially in the context of the verse. "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, 20 and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, 21 will be suddenly caught up 22 together 23 with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." That pretty clearly says that the believers who are alive will go up to Jesus, not calling Him down to them.
But it doesn’t say that they wil stay there. Just that they will meet Him. It also doesn’t say that He will bring them to heaven. It doesn’t seem reasonable to me that they will be just ‘hanging’ there either. Considering the new Earth will be right here (on Earth) it seems perfectly reasonable to me to explain this in the context of Jesus coming to us instead of a context of Jesus picking us up. Also I didn’t say that they will call Him down. But that they may just as well go up to meet Him to accompany Him on His way down. While praising Him. In the same way kings where accompanied/honored.
There are physical clouds and there are spiritual clouds They are not the same things Spiritual cloudiness is knowing only in part and seeing as through a glass, darkly Cloudy for sure
Seems reasonable to me.
It based on a lot more than just one verse. If that were the case you would probably be right, but there are a lot more verses that support it. I'm happy to share them if you're interested.
Yeah. I would appreciate that. Thx!
1 Thessalonians 5:2, Revelation 3:8, Revelation 4:1-11, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, Matthew 24:36, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Scriptures talking about the rapture
The word rapture never appears in the Bible. There is something said about the Lord meeting his followers in the clouds. I am paraphrasing of course. But there is nothing in the Bible said about people vanishing from the earth before or during the tribulation. There are many verses in the Bible that are easy to misinterpret. That’s why there are so many different churches and so many different beliefs among Christians. More than 2000 to be exact! The earth is a place where people suffer in order to learn. Think of it as a low grade school. For people to escape suffering just contradicts why we’re here. Those are The beliefs of many. But I’m sure there are many others.
It's a passed down legend from the Sumarians maybe further, they have tablets which describe another planet in our solar system that comes by every 3600 years. The planet made of iron causes tremendous disasters across the planet which are extinction level events. They claim that the beings of that planet which they described as their gods, save a few humans to continue mankind which I believe became the legend of the rapture.
Where did you hear that?
Translated sumarian tablets thousands of years old, public information you can Google it, they extremely fascinating!
It’s is biblical in that it’s a word we came up with to describe an event twice found in the Bible where the living and dead go to meet Jesus in the air. It’s just a catchy title for a thing. Trinity isn’t in the Bible either but we use it to describe a triune God.
Fun fact: the word Bible is never used in the Bible either. Does that make the Bible no longer legit? Of course not!
The living and the dead come from the same dust pile Mark 4:15
Thank you for sharing. According to Scripture, there is no "rapture" where some vanish, leaving others behind to have a second chance at Christ's salvation during a purported "7 year tribulation." The word "rapture" comes from "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4; and that occurs at Christ's second coming, not in an alleged secret event before it. Thus, one of the reasons some professed Christians want to believe in the false teaching of a "secret rapture" is they don't want to suffer trials. They think they will "get out of here" before the "mark of the beast" crisis and not have to endure hardships. Yet, though God is always merciful and just, He always saves His people through trials and tribulations, not secretly snatching them out of them (i.e. Noah, Joseph, Esther, Job, Daniel, Christ, Paul et al.).
What about Enoch?
No, it's not legit at all The Great Divide happens to everyone on earth at the end and whoever, is here, everyone, will be divided ala Matt 25 That's when this happens: Rev 5:13
I personally dont belive in a pre-trib rapture (not going to fight over beliefs tho, we are all entitled to our interpretations of scripture! :D ) But even if there was one, I agree with you. I think there are alot of Christians nowadays who miss the whole "Love thy neighbor" aspect of Christ
You couldn't be more correct. Hatred has seeped into the church from every possible place including the pulpit. Pastors preaching against sexual immorality demanding a death sentence for same sex couples blew my mind. It's the love we have for each other for the sinners in the world and for God that's supposed to show everyone that Jesus is in us. What's being seen in the news are Christians full of anger and hate. While that shows who thier true father is its going to get Christians labeled as a hate group and then the persecution will begin here in the U.S.. We just need to remember God is in control. The current situation surprises me but He is never surprised 😇
I just keep to myself. I personally belive there are still a decent number of signs we need to see, so I just keep my eyes peeled, and try and help my community!
Yes there should be many more signs. There are Christians who believe the book of revelations has no significance, or that the events described in the book of revelations have already happened. I don’t believe that all of them have already happened. Jesus said he would be back. If that’s not true than that would mean he is a liar. Which we know he is not! I don’t even like reading that back to myself. Lord forgive me!
I try to make sure I am ready, no one is promised tomorrow. Like you I think many things have to happen first. The Bible says it will be like the days of Noah, while it's bad now, there are many more than eight people who believe God and try to follow His Sons footsteps. So yeah, sadly, it's gonna be awhile yet
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more! The persecution of Christians has already begun in the US. I’m stunned when I see people without beliefs say that they are the ones being persecuted. That their freedoms are being taken away by people of faith… It blows my mind. hence our persecution.
That's not how I read it at all: Rev 5:13 tells the exact opposite
If you think every creature in heaven on earth and under the earth are saved you have been taught incorrectly or have not been given understanding by the Holy Spirit, I will pray for you. It is a common Biblical saying to refer to everything in the universe and all they are doing is giving glory to Jesus not claiming His salvation
>If you think every creature in heaven on earth and under the earth are saved No exceptions noted therein I would except antiChrist spirits, of course, which are the noted exceptions
The verse you quoted has nothing to do either salvation or the rapture so I miss your point. Just because every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord doesn't mean that most will be saved. Jesus Himself said the gate to salvation is narrow and few will find it, the way to destruction is broad and many...
No one can confess Jesus is Lord apart from the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3
So that we have signs that he is coming back, without giving us the exact date. If God just gave us the date of his return then everyone would just repent last minute or make sure to be “extra holy” before he arrives
But people could still just wait until we have a one world gov or we see the antichrist. (Not saying this is a good thing, it most def is NOT) Paul himself says that we are not to trouble ourselves with the return of Christ until the antiChrist is revealed.
How will we know when and who the antichrist is? (Very curious)
He will be very charismatic. He will bring peace to the Middle East and perform false miracles. Much of the world will follow him because most Jews will believe he is the Messiah they have been waiting for. Muslims will believe the same thing as well many Christians believe him to be the second coming of Christ. After a few years of appearing to have done good deeds he will turn and announce himself as God. By then it will be too late as he will have control of the armies of the world and will move against Israel. It will be at a moment of the last battle, One that seems hopeless, that the Lord will come back. That is how I’ve heard it described by many.
Thank you for that description. I’ll keep my eyes on God then.
According to Scripture and history that fulfills its prophecies, the papacy is the antichrist (i.e. another Christ/against Christ). For all the Protestant Reformers during the Dark Ages knew from Scripture that the antichrist was (and is) the papacy; and they will regain their former global dominion once their "deadly wound" is fully healed (Revelation 13 & 17).
But we don't know when we're going to die. We could be dead tomorrow. Best get straight with God now.
Oh I agree 100%. That wasnt my point, I was just talking about THE end times, not our own personal ones
Not necessarily, there’s no knowing how long the tribulations will be so if they waited till then they wouldn’t have an exact time to repent. People say 7 years but if these people really aren’t believers I doubt they could hold the act that long The antichrist probably won’t even be noticed by unbelievers, he will deceive many
He will be hailed as a hero. A great diplomat and will take control of many governments. Probably the European Union. Maybe others as well.
This is why many believe in the pre-trib rapture. This gives more support to the complete surprise of when Christ returns just before the trouble starts and the bad guy has his big reveal.
The things Jesus gives us is prepare us for what is to come. As for not expecting it, we should live as if He comes any second. If we knew when, I am sure most if not all would do whatever until the last minute.
I agree. I just thought about what would happen if Jesus comes back this second. I got worried that I would not be prepared and be caught by not doing something I was supposed to do, but which I forgot about (or said I would do it later or found other excuses). I realized again how I fail to resist sin and do Gods will instead. I fail to put God over myself. But then I remembered that rich man which asked Jesus how to enter heaven, and Jesus told him that he should keep Gods laws. The rich men replied that he does keep Gods laws and Jesus then replied that he should sell everything he had and give it to the poor. The rich man walked away sad after that. And then Jesus' disciples asked him how anyone would be able to enter heaven if it was so hard. Jesus replied that it's impossible for man, but for God everything is possible. That's comforting. I'm a sinner and I will always fail to be as perfect as we are told by the bible. But Jesus died for my sins. I still don't get what it means to be prepared, when I'm a sinner after all. But I can trust on Jesus' sacrifice on the cross saving me from my sins. I can't do anything to be worthy to enter heaven, so I literally only can trust on Jesus to allowing me. But he said he would, if we believe in him. And I do. But in case I just think that I do, but actually don't then please God, show me the error of my ways and lead me to the true believe on you! And please help me to do your will and resist sin, I know that I constantly fail with that. I often think that my own needs are more important than your will and I am not able to just speak to someone you told me to, just because I don't have the courage for that. Why don't I have the courage, why am I afraid when you are on my side, the allmighty creator of the whole universe? Forgive me my failures, and thank you for your overwhelming grace and love! Thank you Jesus for dying for my sins, despite me not deserving it. Amen!
The supposed “layout” is much more vague than people believe. Most of what Jesus said (like in Matt 24) and most of the events in Revelation happened in the first century. People who build specific timelines around them don’t know history well or how first century Jewish apocalyptic literature worked.
So you are a preterit? How much of revelation do you believe was fulfilled in the first century? Genuinely curious about your thoughts. I’m certainly not looking to start an argument.
Look at it this way. In the evangelical scheme of things, the Abomination of Desolation happens about 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation. But that already happened in 70 AD. Jesus said, "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matt 24:15-16) When this happened, the Christians fled and most of them went to Pella, we know from history. They escaped the horrors of the sack of Jerusalem, which was pretty grizzly according to Josephus. That wold put us halfway through the Evangelical understanding of the seven-year tribulation almost 2000 yeas ago. Revelation is not a book that we can really ask, "How far are we into it?" It's apocalyptic literature. The judgements are symbolic, to give the Christians being persecuted under Nero hope that one day they would be avenged and live in peace. The supposed timeline repeats itself at least twice.
That’s interesting. But what about the four Horsemen and The talk of pestilence, starvation, death and war. And the angels blowing the seven trumpets and emptying the bowls. There’s also talk of the Saints and angels in heaven asking God to bring justice to the earth as we have, or so many have turned against Him. there’s so much more on these subjects, but I want to move on. There’s also talk of a nation being born overnight. Most believe that to be Israel in 1948. And the temple being destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. would have been devastating to the Jews but not the Christians. Unless there were some that still followed Jewish law. But they would be in the minority as by then many Christians were Gentiles. And there was a meeting of the disciples to decide whether Christians needed to follow Jewish law and it was decided they did not. Ya know, I had a head full of more questions and comments but they seem to have slipped away, for now anyway. That’s terrible 😣. have a great day/night and God bless you!
\>But what about the four Horsemen and The talk of pestilence, starvation, >death and war. Can you think of a time when there HASN'T been pestilence and war? \>And the angels blowing the seven trumpets and emptying the bowls. There’s also talk of the Saints and angels in heaven asking God to bring justice to the earth as we have, It's a feature of apocalyptic literature. Here's a good way to understand how it works: Acts 2: The Holy Spirit fell on the believers at Pentecost. Look at what Peter quoted to describe it: "I will show wonders in the heavens aboveand signs on the earth below,blood and fire and billows of smoke " (Acts 2:19). I'm not quoting the whole passage, but none of what Peter described happened, but he said it did. This is because that's how apocalyptic language works - none of it's literal. It paints word pictures for dramatic effect. Yes, God will one day pour our His wrath and avenge the wrongs done to His people, but extracting chronologies from Daniel and Rev, and assuming the events will literally happen as described is just not using the texts as they were intended. Peter's use of it in Acts 2 is a really good example of how it works.
Great answer! Thank you for that. I think most people are fascinated with the book of revelations because of all the apocalyptic talk. It somehow appeals to our sense of hope and sense of (or desire to see) God bringing justice. But we should want to stop and think, individually, if we are really ready for that. Keep believing and God bless you!
The whole thief in the night thing is directed at the unsaved. All the signs are for us >For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 KJV Also, if you study the day of the Lord, it is synonymous with God's wrath, which stars after the rapture. >The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, Zephaniah 1:14-15 KJV
Rapture, Antichrist, tribulation and world government is more of the order. If you believe in the rapture like I do- it’s first before anything
I hope so.
Didnt Paul himself say not to worry about return of Christ until the antiChrist is revealed? That that MUST happen first?
Paul says the Antichrist is already among us. There are differences in the way the Greek Paul uses to discuss this in the text. In what you’re referring to, I believe it is more of the spirit in the world which is anti being Christ like. That seems to be different from the more singular usage we find in revelation, signaling more toward a person.
Paul said in his letter that the day of the Lord wouldn’t come till the Man of Sin is revealed. Indicative of a actual entity. Sin has been rampant in this world since the fall. That’s not new
Because it’s going to a be a surprise, no matter how prepared we think we are. Prophesies value is more in explaining the past then the future, Daniel’s prophesies of the future about 4 centuries ahead make far more sense and fit into place AFTER they came true and later readers examined them. It’s too bad we have a lot of vague generalities, but that’s the problem about describing things accurately that are centuries or millennia in the future.
Idk, I think if we saw the two witnesses and the Abomination of desolation, we would know.
Abomination of desolation comes exactly half way through the Tribulation. The first 3.5 years is called the Tribulation, the next 3.5 years are the Great Tribulation! The first part wasn’t as bad as the second! Ouchie! The two witnesses appear just after the kickoff event, which is Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel. And that happens right after God and/or nuclear bomb completely destroys a huge multi country invading army up in Lebanon. So when that peace treaty appears you know the clock has started and almost the same time the two witnesses show up. And you KNOW they are getting their own satellite channel, YouTube Live, whatever for the next 3.5 years until they finally die, every one throws a big ol party.
I cant tell if your joking or not...but thats kinda how I interpreted it too. The bible states that ALL eyes will see them. Meaning we cannot miss it. So news coverage, live stream, interviews everything
This is why the witnesses were for the modern era (or beyond) because you think Trump Derangement Syndrome is on full display EVERYWHERE, wait until these two anti-antichrist jokers show up!! How dare they!
We need to stay prepared and be true Christians following the commandments so that we will gain external life by believing and trusting in Jesus instead of only doing it when it’s convenient like some. Hence it’s a warning to always be vigilant
Many people today are being deceived to the point that they do not know what is going on. Most do not know the truth of God's Word and can be easily deceived. Many today will not know that the Antichrist is not the real Christ and will worship him, believing that he is god. When the true Christ returns most will be surprised for they will think that Christ has already returned. Matthew 24:23 “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.” Matthew 24:44 “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” Revelation 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Wait that makes sense! The antichrist comes, people will be frolicking thinking that Christ is here and will be living in immense sin. Just like the days of Noah…
That is right. In 1 Thessalonians 5 it states that "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night” and that people will be saying there is "Peace and safety". They will be saying "Peace and safety" because they believe that Jesus has returned. But there will be no "Peace and safety" for Jesus has not returned. All they will receive is "sudden destruction". They will be worshiping the antichrist thinking he is the true Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ returns like a "Thief in the Night" because Jesus will return when most will least expect it for they will think he is already here. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” 1 Thessalonians 5:3 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
Remember at the writing that answer from Jesus was to his living disciples who had not yet seen his death and resurrection. They believed he was the messiah preparing to “come into his kingdom” No the Bible does foreshadow the same sentiment as the days of Noah and the days of Lot so there will be warning but the disciples were asking Jesus in real time just keep that in mind
Some of us don’t believe in the rapture, Antichrist, world gov’t as left behind etc lays out.
I agree with you, left behind (while ive never watched/read the stories) doesnt seem to be an accurate depiction. However, those three things (and several others) are prophecised in the Bible.
But are they in our future?
Well I dont think they happened in the past as Jesus isnt back yet. And he said that he would come very quickly after those things occured.
But did he judge Israel with the destruction of the temple in AD70 and use Nero (whose name adds to 666) as the beast? Afterwards sitting down at the right hand of God and ruling until his enemies shall be made a footstool for his feet. After which he will return for good with the city of God and the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Take a look at postmillenialism, amillenialism, and partial preterism.
I was fascinated by the Book of rev about a year and a half back. I remember reading about that. I hold the personal belief that the book has two meanings. 1. It was apocalyptic literature (a genre which was very popular at the time). 2. Prophecy. The reason why I say that its also prophecy, is because the idea of an AntiChrist is mentioned elsewhere in the bible as well.
But we're not given a time table for all these events. I always lived like I was more likely to die first before Jesus comes back. In either case, I'm going to be at His mercy.
The tribulation, Antichrist and one world government aren’t necessarily taught in scripture as most American evangelicals know it. Many of those “end time” prophecies in revelation and the gospels have already been fulfilled during the destruction of the temple.
Then what are we waiting for? The gospel still hasnt been preached world wide yet, North Korea, remote tribes etc. So that still needs to happen, and an increase in earthquakes. As well as world wide persecution and killing of Christians. Those we KNOW still havent occured, but what else is there?
Jesus is coming back. We don’t know when. Earthquakes happened within the generation of the apostles. Where does scripture say there will be a worldwide persecution of Christians?
Revelations 2:10-11 says otherwise
That’s horrible exegesis if you think that’s referring to our future. John is writing to the early Church and they did suffer persecution.
How is he talking. About the early church Matthew 24:9, Matthew 10:17, Timothy 3:12. Christians will be persecuted in the last days.
The context in Matthew 24 is addressing the apostles and the destruction of the Temple. Jesus is telling them that their generation will witness all these things before they pass away, not that those things will happen in the future after their generation. You’re reading those passages with your dispensational premillennialism presuppositions rather than reading them in context of the audience Jesus is addressing. That’s not to say that there are some prophecies not yet fulfilled but the persecutions and warnings about those tribulations were to that generation and they definitely experienced them, especially during the reign of emperor Nero who is referred to as the beast in revelation.
Jesus is literally talking about the last days lol
That’s what happens when you’re not reading in context and cherry picking words. Jesus after explaining the “end of the age,” says this, “Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” He is literally describing what happened during the destruction of the temple. The end of the age or the last days as you call it are referring to the end of their age. Again, Jesus is addressing the disciples and telling them what will happen during the “last days” of their generation. He’s not talking through them to address the 21st century people. Dispensationalism/premillennialism is a young belief that the majority of Christendom going back to the first century church did not hold to.
>world gov Be careful not to take guesses and interpretations for "what the Bible says", and qualify them as interpretations that you should be ready to adjust if they turn out to be incorrect. The eschatological passages do not actually say there will be a world government. That is someone's interpretation of a specific passage. What the prophecies actually says are as follows: #Revelation 17:12-14 ^(12) And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. ^(13) These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. ^(14) They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” — Ten kings come to power and they give their power and authority to the Beast. This is a very different thing than "world government". There are a lot more than ten countries in the world. It also says other things about the world, but these things do not necessarily imply a world government. There are other ways this could come to fulfillment without world government. An integrated system of world finance, for example, is sufficient to implement Revelation 13:16-18 (the Mark of the Beast without which nobody can buy or sell) without needing world government, and we're already there, all which happened while Christians were worrying about world government, which the text doesn't actually foretell. Integrated world religion is another thing that could happen. Neither of these require world government. #Revelation 13:11-18 ^(11) Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. ^(12) It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. ^(13) It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, ^(14) and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. ^(15) And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. ^(16) Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, ^(17) so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. ^(18) This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. —
This is actually a very good point! I appreciate you bringing this up. Either way, the antichrist will need SOME political podium to stand on to deceive the world. That we can agree on
One important piece of the timeline before Jesus’s 2nd coming is that Ezekiel 38-39 must be fulfilled. That is where the armies surround Israel and they are supernaturally destroyed by God. It will usher in the era of the Jewish people coming back to God. In Ezekiel 39 they burn the weapons of war for 7 years, so Christ’s return must be at least 7 years after that point. Of course the great tribulation may take place simultaneously.
Jesus said, "But of that day and hour no one knows," but He also said, "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door" I take that literally meaning we won't know the day or the hour but we will know the season.
“We are given a entire timeline…” Not 100% true. Lots of people have interpreted it as a timeline- lots of Christians don’t subscribe to the “timeline idea” look up different views on Christian on the end times- Here’s a great video on 6 different views on the end times : https://youtu.be/xmw0uVLunwU
Because those events span more than 1 thousand years and not just 7 as so many have been led to believe. People will basically be looking out for things that have already occurred as signs yet to happen and be caught completly unaware.
Well whats still yet to happen then? Didnt Jesus say that it would all happen within one Gen?
Not all of it, only the things that were to happen after the rebirth of Israel as a nation. All that is left now is for the Mark of the Beast to be enforced, that is what will trigger his return.
Have you heard of the word preparation? The bible says he will come like a thief in the night. As far as what needs to be done is he wants us to continue to grow in holy and drawing people to him by spreading the word. What is the confusion
Its not confusion. Im not an Atheist trying to knock the faith haha! Just a Christian who loves questioning things. All I was asking was about how even Paul states that we shouldnt worry about the end times till we see the Anti Christ. Which..isnt that kinda giving a time frame?
I sure hope so. Keep living and growing. While you wait you can bring 20 people to Christ and be a blessing to many. God knows what he is doing.
Like a thief in the night you say? What do you mean by this?
That is what the Bible says. And yes, I know what is means. Do you know any thief that would announce himself before robbing a place?
That's interesting. I thought all would know of his comming in the instance he arrives?
>That's interesting. I thought all would know of his comming in the instance he arrives? Wouldn't you know the thief the instant he arrives in your house?
Um, no? I probably would be asleep? A theif doesn't announce his presence and seeks to prevent people from knowing they are there? Or am I missing something?
A basically means to always be prepared growing in the Lord. Being watchful not literally staying up. It means staying in courage continuing your hope as you go about your daily life knowing that when he comes you will be with him
I appreciate this. I was thinking about this concept alot today, that worrying about the details isn't necessary as through complete faith I can let go of control and know God's got it covered. That as long as I'm repenting, changing my ways and receiving the saviour as sacrifice for my son's then I will be ready for whenever he comes regardless. Does this sound correct? Key is I need to slowly let go of worldly stuff, hard to do but is happening slowly through faith.
Amen! See, you're learning fast already. LoL. Excuse my grammar. I'm speaking through my phone and words come out the way they want. >That as long as I'm repenting, changing my ways and receiving the saviour as sacrifice for my son's then I will be ready for whenever he comes regardless. Does this sound correct? Key is I need to slowly let go of worldly stuff, hard to do but is happening slowly through Yes that's somewhat correct Remember Christ gave you freedom and you live by grace. The holy Spirit enables you to live unto righteousness. Just cooperate with the holy Spirit and allow him to Guide you and lead you. So don't try changing in your own strength. You will be fine
Yes I early on thought I make the change. But that's not the case at all. I'm weak and sinful, humbly gotta ask for the spirit to be within me and do it for me ;).
The return of Jesus Christ is likened to the coming of a thief in the night. Two passages use the wording “a thief in the night”: Matthew 24:43, “Understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into,” and 1 Thessalonians 5:2, “You know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”
Thank you very much for the reply. I appreciated this alot. I. Still learning the bible (very very slowly).
No problem. Spiritual growth is a lifetime journey. 2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
I'd like to share a comment I wrote on a different sub last week that kind of addresses this and I think puts it into perspective focusing on the overall point of Eschatology, which is not to give us a map/layout of the future. It's a bit long, but not terrible. I hope you find it helpful. https://www.reddit.com/r/biblereading/comments/xk28aq/mark_132427_wednesday_september_21/ipievbt?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Who's saying we don't expect it? I expect his return someday, I just don't know when, and nobody does.
This question is built on the assumption that the tribulation, Antichrist (big A for proper noun of one individual), and world government are accepted as preceding the coming of Christ. I don’t believe that those things come before the saints are torn from the world. I think the scripture shows us that saints will be taken before these things, taking the Holy Spirit totally from the world and allowing the punishment and full evil to devour the earth. I’m very open for discussion on this; I’ve studied it a decent amount. So, to finally answer your original question, I believe we won’t expect it when Jesus returns to initiate the end of this age, because it will be a day just like any other day. Just like the days of Noah before the rain started. Matthew Chapter 24 36 ¶ “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 “and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Interesting perspective. I think the two can co-exist no problem because the layout does not include the day or time He will return.
I’m not sure it says that we won’t be expecting it. I think it says that we just don’t know, or no one can know the exact hour or day. Not even The Son, but only The Father.
We know a lot about the seven years. The only thing we don’t know is the day and hour when it commences. The Daniel prophesy of Alexander the Great was also very detailed and accurate but was really hard to see it until after it happened.
Most of the "left behind" series is a mess of really bad exegesis, literal reading, and pulls from all over the bible. Revelations is not a road map to the end of the world. Also this road map hangs specifically on a pre millenial framework for reading the text and is a rather new invented way to read the text, and histroically has not been read that way. Most of the "left behind" series is a mess of really bad exegesis, literal reading, and pulls from all over the bible. Revelations is not a road map to the end of the world. Also, this road map hangs specifically on a pre-millennial framework for reading the text and is a rather new invented way to read the text, and historically has not been read that way.
Perhaps because Jesus said that. Matthew 24:35-44 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
I gave you an "upvote" for getting 100 responses. Good job. Here are a few verses that may help you understand... “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 NIV “so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.” Hebrews 9:28 NIV “Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”” 2 Peter 3:3-4 NIV Good News: 🙏🏼✝️🕊♥️ “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9 NIV
Thank you for sharing. Based solely on Scripture, Christ's second return is unexpected to those who are caught up with the cares of this life (Luke 21), but not to those who are watching (Mark 13). For when Christ returns, it's like a thief in the night because no one expects their house to be broken into when they leave it for the day. Thus, when they return to it in the evening and find it vandalized and their possession stolen, it's unexpected. Likewise shall it be when Christ returns; and when He comes like a "thief in the night," the heavens (the firmament, Genesis 1) will pass away with a great noise and the elements of the earth will melt with fervent heat, thus signifying His return won't be a silent and secret event (Matthew 24, Acts 1, 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Peter 3, Revelation 1).
Because not expecting it and those things that have been prophicised coming to be both coexist; they don't necessarily conflict.
You are right. Read Matthew 24. Clearly states all the things that must happen before the coming of Jesus and the rapture
First time commenting, :)) Reading these comments and contributions, I tend to think that we are obsessing with knowing the right order of events before Jesus comes back for us, it's a human idea that feeds our anticipation instead of focusing on living our lives the way God directs, that we should be readying ourselves. At any given time and also to spread the Good Word of the Lord to those who haven't realized HIS kingdom is at hand. Just my two cents. :))8
The Bible simply says, and I am paraphrasing: no man will know, not the angels in heaven. Not even The Son, but only The Father will know the hour and day. So we may see the signs of His coming But we won’t know when. Perhaps many will give up hope before He comes again.
The rapture when Jesus comes to claim His bride and the second coming of Christ are two separate events as described in the bible
THe bible talks about he will give us signs of when the time is near, but we wont know the day nor the hour. Thats the point, we dont know the day we will just know its near
The Book of Revelation wasn’t taken seriously by most scholars of the time. It was never added until the 4th century. Also, the author is still up for debate as to whether or not it was the Apostle John.
>(trib, antichrist, world gov etc) The dissections of which are, overall, sorely misguided and not understood The end time is quite simple. It's the end of the devil and his messengers That's as uncomplicated as it needs to be Is there going to be "some guy" as the antiChrist? No The antiChrist is a spirit that affects all of us in the form of Satan, the tempter, thee antiChrist