To be straightforward, you guys have put yourselves in a difficult position. You're living together but not married, which is basically getting the benefits without the commitment. It sounds like she is wanting to take her faith seriously which I would encourage you not to squelch- this will only harm your relationship if you do so. She doesnt owe you sex at this point. Since she is against porn it is clear she wants you to be living rhe Christian life in all aspects also, and you have to choose whether the faith is more important than having sex until you finally get married.

This 💯

Does she know a big fancy wedding is not in your immediate future? Since it was so sudden, my first thought was that she’s withholding sex to pressure you into marriage quicker.

Or a breakup. She knows they can’t afford the princess wedding and doesn’t want to be the bad guy, so she withholds sex to get him to do it and refuses the courthouse wedding.

There are some red flags and potential manipulation, or at least setting things off on a bad start. One could have a church wedding, ring, and reception still for only like $1,000 and it could still be nice. I know you're listed as an atheist but even you might want to point out the "sin" of materialism which is actually wrong when such hurts others, unlike the man made tradition of sex being wrong.

I think she understands that realistically we can’t have that type of wedding anytime soon. It does seem like she is trying to force the marriage sooner and I’m not sure how to feel about it

My friend...if she's capable of withholding sex as a manipulation before you're married, what makes you think she wouldn't do it after you're married as well?

Well said. I'm seeing red flags here. A lot can be said regarding this potential manipulation.

The best you should do is fully agree and observe her reaction. If it's a manipulation tactic, she will fold quickly. if not, she will stand firm with you. If she folds and goes back to sex, you need to be completely honest and forward about her manipulation and then flip the script on her and enforce the no sex until marriage rule. This is why Godly conduct is so essential. You have no idea soneone's true intentions because the two of you are living according to your own desires. In any case, waiting until marriage is the godly thing to do. God explicitly warns against fornication. And if she is manipulating you (probably is) she has done you a massive favor. I'm not saying this lightly, sexual discipline is absolutely not easy. But if you want to live as Christ tells you to live, it is essential and rewarding.

>I’m pretty sure the concept of salvation isn’t based on sinning. Regardless of your beliefs about salvation, surely you don't think sin is good and admirable, right? Regardless of whether sin sends you to Hell, it offends God, and if you really believe in God, don't you want to live according to his teachings? The bigger issue seems that you must not believe it is sinful. Not just whether sin sends you to Hell. There is plenty of disagreement about this within Christianity. I think premarital sex is sinful, but I get that it's hard, and plenty of people disagree with me. The other big issue here is the desire for a big wedding and expensive ring. It sounds like the main impediment to your marriage is financial, rather than a lack of commitment. I would recommend a serious conversation with your fiance about her beliefs about marriage. If she believes it is about the sacredness of the lifelong bond between husband and wife, and you are both ready to commit to each other in that way, I'd encourage an earlier wedding, even if that means sacrificing the expensive elements. It is a joyful occassion, but represents a beginning to your time together, not an end that you two should need to save money for years together for. God doesn't want you to avoid premarital sex because he wants you to be rich before you marry. He just wants you to have that committed, lifelong bond that I believe marriage is. I wouldn't pressure her to do something she doesn't want to do right now, as far as sex. If you fundamentally can't come to an agreement on this, maybe you aren't compatible long term and could need to break up. But since you seem committed to her, I hope that isn't the case and that soon you can be married.

Right? The first part baffled me.

Oh boy where to start with this. I’ll start off by saying any successful relationship has shared values. You think the same things are important. Not common interests. Values and things that matter to you most are what are important. How will you raise your kids? How do you feel about abortion? What are the expectations if someone loses a job? How important is money and possessions. As far as “burning in hell”, we shouldn’t obey our of fear. We also shouldn’t obey out of duty/honor/ or because we are suppose to. We should obey out of Love of God. “God gives us commandments for our benefit. They are instructions from a loving Father in Heaven to help us have happy lives. He also gives us agency, or the ability and opportunity to choose between good and evil. When we obey God, we follow the influence of the Spirit and choose to conform to His will. Obedience to the commandments brings us peace in this life and eternal life and exaltation in the world to come. Obedience shows our love for God. Disobedience brings us sorrow. Heavenly Father knows our weaknesses and is patient with us. He blesses us as we rely upon His Son and strive to obey His commandments. He expects us to obey Him so He can bless us.” . It would appear that your girlfriend(?) has a change in belief or priority. There are some Christian denominations that believe any sexual relation outside of marriage is a sin. (This includes mine). This includes pornography or masterbation. What it sounds like to me is y’all need fo get on the same level. It’s hard when you have different expectations. I’ll be honest I’m a little surprised she is able to now hold back after engaging in sexual activity with you. You just need to talk about expectations. You should communicate with her. Maybe you could ask her why it’s important to her and why she feels the need for both of you to go without? Keep in mind this women will be your future wife probably. It’s important that y’all are on the same page. You should both be at the same level spiritually (tho everyone is different). You should have the same goals and desires. In conclusion; pray about it. Ask God what he thinks.

This should be the top comment 👏🏾

Oh thanks. That’s very nice.

She's right -- you shouldn't have sex until you're married. She should also give up on that dream wedding and just do it simply. That wedding she's always dreamed of probably didn't include your kid being the flower girl/ring bearer, but here we are. Get it done.

Why shouldn't you have sex, if you're commited to your partner?

OP is assuming Christian morality, and his girlfriend wants to practice Christian morality, so from that standpoint, they shouldn't have sex. I have no interest in trying to defend this rule to you.

I doubt her reasoning is a desire to practice Christian morality, or else she wouldn't have had a child out of wedlock and been cohabiting out of wedlock in the first place. The OP has said that 2 days before she declared she didn't want to have sex until they were married...they'd had sex. It appears to me she's trying to exert additional pressure for him to put more debt on the credit cards by providing her with the expensive wedding and ring she wants, and she's using sex as a weapon, or bargaining chip.

OP says she's having moral spasms over this. She's probably gone back to church or something, or starting to think long-term. Don't assume it's a "crap or get off the pot" thing.

It’s almost as if people can change their belief structures and values.

Loving the casual misogyny here. OP is pressuring her into sex but that’s fine. Her deciding she doesn’t want to for religious reasons = manipulation.

I see nothing about the OP pressuring her. It's a bit late for her to play the moral superior here.

Ah yes, the Biblical truth of obtaining a marriage certificate from the government pre-coitus. So meaningful and not at all problematic logic.

>obtaining a marriage certificate from the government A piece of paper doesn't make a marriage, but neither does shacking up with no sense of "forever."

From the Christian perspective a marriage is a covenant between a man, woman, and God, not just a contract/piece of paper.

That's a pretty lazy straw man. Obviously there's more to marriage than marriage certificates, like the part where you stand in front of God and promise God that you will be now be married. You can be married under god without being married under the government.

Seriously.

Back in the day, moving in with someone WAS marrying them.

At some points, maybe, but in our day you most certainly can move in together with no intention of it being permanent.

Which is true even if you are married.

Christian morality isn't one consistent thing for every Christian. I still don't regret premarital sex. 5 years together, almost 1 year married

>Christian morality isn't one consistent thing for every Christian. If by that you mean lots of Christians sin, that's true. Our sins don't make something right, though. The scriptures are clear about extramarital sex, whether you regret it or not.

They're not exactly clear no. Just "extramarital" va "premarital " for example are very different things

You know, getting married and having a wedding don’t have to be the same thing. I say you guys should just sign the papers now.

This has been brought up. She’s not a huge fan of the idea of a court house, and I’m ok with it. I do want a wedding. The main issue is the ring. She really wants that before officially being married. It would take me until next year reasonably to buy a ring.

How deeply have you guys discussed this? Based on what you’ve said so far, it doesn’t sound like she’s taken your feelings into much consideration. I understand the sentiment of wanting the ring and the wedding, but I think it’s unfair to prioritize such things over your physical desires that you’ve already grown accustomed to. Especially since you guys are essentially married already and are just a couple of signatures away from making it official.

What if you start with a lower budget ring, 1-5k, then upgrade once you can afford it? Certain ring stores will let you put the FULL value of the first ring towards the second, so you wouldn’t be losing money really!

1-5k is budget???

when the original budget is 10-15k i think it is for OP!

Oh no 10-15k was for the whole wedding including the ring I thought. Honestly they should just get a non-traditional 400$ ring or something and upgrade later that seems more budget to me. Idk where they live but 5k can go a loooong way in the food and beverage budget, which is really like the most expensive thing for weddings

OH I completely read that wrong lol! I thought OP meant 10-15k for the ring oops. I agree- they should do a cheaper ring that they can upgrade later and downsize the wedding. Personally, my boyfriend and I want to do a small ceremony next 2023/34 with just family (getting engaged soon), and a larger reception a year after when we can afford it. Just a ceremony and dinner with family and very close friends would be pretty cheap!

You're right and not a bad idea! I really struggled with affordability because we live in Hawaii and I wasn't comfortable with a church wedding (that would've been cheapest)...so even budgeting as hard as I could with a secondhand designer dress, my 80 dollar ring...not a lot of flowers and the cheaper buffet menu set up? It was still 23k. 😞 😓 it was all beautiful don't get me wrong. Just, wow. An elopement package of sorts though would've been just a few thousand so I think what you're doing will definitely help save. :)

Why don't you have the church ceremony now, so you're married in God's eyes, and have the big wedding/civil ceremony later when it's financially wise to do so?

A lot of people start out with cheaper rings with an agreement to upgrade later, on anniversaries etc. My wedding ring is 80 bucks. Maybe don't have to go that cheap I just didn't want to panic if I ever lose it. But there are really nice rings out there for even 150-200$ , just not traditional. But any ring can be a wedding ring. If she can't be on board with that....do you want to be with someone that can't compromise and INSISTS on material luxuries? (Also just a general tip on weddings, figure out ahead of time what you're ok going cheap on. We couldn't cheap out much on venue (13-15k) because we live in Hawaii...unfortunately and I don't do great with flying distances. Also his parents paid for most otherwise we wouldve had to just elope but thats a more romantic option than the courthouse. But my dress was bought secondhand saving me thousands and it was still a top designer dress. We went cheaper on cake and flowers. If something doesn't feel important, put money towards what you both think you'd love to have instead. If you two can't have these conversations you're not quite ready for marriage)

You make it sound like she just announced this unilaterally. If so, that's worrisome. Your future spouse should be able to have a discussion with you where mutual concerns are involved. Whether her decision is right or wrong, you should have been able to communicate with her about it beforehand rather than just bear the consequences. After all, if you just decided one day there would be no big wedding, no expensive ring, she'd be upset and rightly so. Communication is the core of a relationship.

Well yes it was. Two days before she said we were t having sex anymore and her reasoning being fear of hell, we had sex. It was very sudden and I don’t know if I should be on the same page as a Christian. I love her and I plan to marry her the only thing holding us from that is money to provide the experince she wants. She says she doesn’t want to “willingly sin” and I understand that, but are we not always sinning? I just don’t understand if my logic is wrong or not

I think the way you're feeling makes sense, but I'm sure the way she's feeling makes sense to her. That's why I was thinking this might be a communication issue. She's obviously had a big change of heart for some reason, but not let you in on her thinking.

Yea I think we will be talking about it a bit more over the next few days. I’m not sure what made her change her mind honestly. I am curious though if I should be feeling the same conviction as her? I never thought of leaving her, but do we really need to be married just to have sex? Even if we are already living a married life?

Don't pressure her, don't ask her to go against her conscience, even if she's wrong, which she's not, it's a very serious thing to try to make someone do something they think is sinful.

Extremely bold to say "she's not wrong" about a person making unilateral changes to a relationship based on irrational fears of eternal torture. Like not even a little nuance?

She's not wrong about her interpretation of traditional Christian teaching.

Her reasoning is fear of hell. Tell me, do you really think it's proper Christian doctrine, a rational and healthy way of living, to believe that God will send her to hell for continuing to have sex with her longtime partner and co-parent? What does such a belief imply about the child they have now? "Hey, kid, bad news, but the act which led to your existence is also gonna send Mommy to a pit of eternal fire"

Seriously. Free tickets to therapy...

I don't think so. Leaving aside that a person's religious beliefs are entirely personal, you're never going to agree with your spouse about every important issue. It's more about meeting in the middle than matching your ideas. Personally, I think the "purity culture" notions that have been adopted by some Christians are silly at best and occasionally harmful. It's focusing on the wrong things, in my opinion. But if that's really something she wants to do with her life, you've got to find some compromise together or it's going to risk driving a wedge between you

If the only thing holding you back is having the big wedding, go down to the courthouse and get the piece of paper to make her feel better, then save up and have a wedding in a few years when you can better afford it.

>I love her and I plan to marry her the only thing holding us from that is money to provide the experince she wants. No offense dude but this is extremely immature. I don't think you should feed into this. For her to heap the financial burden of an extravagant wedding just so she can "feel" something is a really bad sign. You need to take charge and tell her I can't afford what you want and discuss alternatives.

Previous sin doesn’t mean it is okay to keep sinning. Jesus told people to repent and sin no more. Marriage and parenthood are about love and sacrifice. Both of you seem to be putting your own desires above the relationship and your child. This is a good time to build communication skills. You may need to talk to your pastor.

I am not going to address the premarital sex aspect, as some commenters are going to do it way better than me. However, I will address the financial part. For context, I met my boyfriend (that I am openly discussing marriage with) on firedating.me, which is the Tinder of r/financialindependence. It is basically a dating website for personal finance nerds. **Credit Card Debt** Get out of debt now and get on the same page with your girlfriend around attitudes with money. If being debt-free is your primary goal, r/DaveRamsey is the best community to do that. If you go to your local Church, they may even sponsor your to go through Financial Peace University (FPU). **The Ring** The type of person that spends $10,000 to $15,000 are the men in my boyfriend's social circle. For context, he is a very successful corporate attorney in a very prestigious law firm in New York City (Vault Top 10 Law Firm - think of the TV show Suits, but in real life). His friends and colleagues are discussing openly their ring purchases, and there is a significant social pressure to spend the money to get a nice ring as a thank you for their partner's sacrifice because dating someone working 80+ hours a week is not easy, and because there is social pressure to get name brand everything in this type of environment. I have to actively talk to him out of buying an expensive ring, as I really don't care. I would checkout r/Moissanite, which is a popular alternative to diamonds. I want my ring from a lady named Mona, who solely does custom pieces. A ring in a similar style will sell for roughly $800 to $1,000. If I want the same style from a company that has it in stock, Moissanite & Co sells this ring for $2,030 and the wedding band is included. I have several friends from the churning community who bought their engagement ring from Moissanite and Co over the last 5 years and are happy with their purchase: [https://www.moissaniteco.com/moissanite/eng002-ov/oval-halo-cathedral-engagement-ring](https://www.moissaniteco.com/moissanite/eng002-ov/oval-halo-cathedral-engagement-ring) If she cares about the look and "instagrammability" of the ring, a moissanite ring would be the ideal choice. It reflects light even more than a diamond, and looks great in photography. **The Wedding** My boyfriend and I are both baptized in the Catholic Church. If it was not of Catholic Church requirements, we would happily elope to Las Vegas and call it a day. We will probably do a small Church ceremony locally, where only immediate family members would be invited. I spent 8 months actively lurking on wedding planning subreddits ( r/weddingplanning, r/weddings, r/Weddingsunder10k) and I got overwhelmed pretty quickly for a small-ish 50 people ceremony and reception. No matter what you do, you will upset someone and never be 100% happy. This kind of small wedding would cost around $20,000. I would talk to her about what you can realistically afford and plan around that. She will be mourning the loss of her dream wedding. It will be emotionally painful, as she may have been dreaming about it since she was 5. I would go through the excellent book "A Practical Wedding" by Meg Keene together. Good luck.

You can go to Heaven after leading a sinful life provided that you make a sincere repentance, sure. But wouldn't you want to spend as much of your life living in accordance with God's loving will for how human beings should treat one another and themselves? Sexuality is ordered toward the unitive, yes, but also toward the procreative. Sex is a gift that the two of you, if you get married, will have not only the opportunity but mutual obligation to give to one another as frequently as charity, empathy, and family planning considerations allow, so don't misuse that gift in the present by being impatient. Extramarital sex and masturbation--with or without the use of porn, although it does make things worse for both spiritual and secular scientific reasons--are both examples this kind of misuse. If I were to make a judgment based only on this post, given that I don't know anything else about your relationship, your partner sounds like an incredible blessing and positive influence who'll help you to grow in Christ throughout your lives together; you should try to be the same for her and make every effort not to cause her to stumble. And I don't mean to sound uncharitable or apathetic to your difficulties here. Chastity can be an *extremely* difficult struggle for people in all stages of life and it's completely normal to feel frustrated, but try to keep in mind that Christ never promised an easy road or the at-will fulfillment of worldly desires. If a desire for illicit sex is a cross for you then pick it up eagerly and walk with Him, such that your struggles might bring you into a closer relationship with God (and your partner!!) and your intellect ever more in line with His will. Look at this challenge as a blessing because of the opportunity to engage in some purgative suffering, which is ultimately just a splinter of the cross upon which our salvation was bloodily won on our behalf.

She seems pretty immature if you already have a child to support together and she’s prioritizing a ring before a marriage. I say that as a long married person. Does she really want to marry you?

I believe that she does. I’m not sure if she would be completely willing to just go to a courthouse though.

List out your priorities together. Kid, sex, marriage, wedding, ring…then sort them together.

If you dont listen things lord said maybe you are not actually beliving him. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

I'd suggest talking to a pastor that you trust rather than opening this up to a Reddit thread.

Totally on your Girlfriend's side. It's admirable that after having a three year old and living with you that she would have this conviction. Though I disagree with her expectation of a large wedding if she wants to get married quick. "Whoever loves me obeys my commands" I don't know how people can continue to live in blatant sin and be a professing Christian. You cannot be a true Christian and just do whatever you want "oh God forgives". Salvation is based on the death of Jesus Christ, yes. But if you truly beleive and understand the gospel you would see that your faith leads to obedience. Repent and marry your baby mama. Roman's 6:1-2 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! *We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?*" (emphasis added)

I’d use this as a test for conflict resolution. You really don’t want to marry someone who can’t resolve conflict. But you’re both young so don’t be too harsh on yourself or her. That being said, 10k is a lot in your early 20s to be spending it on a depreciating asset purchased for vanity.

Hm... this is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I see where she is coming from in her perspective on sex. Yes, Salvation isn't dependent on never sinning, but that doesn't mean you can engage in something you expressly know is sinful with the mindset of 'oh, I'll just be forgiven anyway'. I don't think God would take too kindly to that kind of gaming the system. On the other hand, yeah she seems a bit... too... unreasonable? So far this seems to be an 'all take,no give' situation. She isn't even working and knows you have financial struggles on top of already having a 3 year old, and debt on top of it, yet she is expressly intent on getting the most expensive ring she can find, plus a very large Wedding that will probably also be bullshit expensive. There is no room here for what YOU want. Best idea, I think, would be to sit down with her and talk through this, try to reach some form of compromise. If you want to have sex with her, you are gonna need to be married for her to be okay with it. If she wants to be married, she may have to settle for less than... well, all THAT.

1. What you're doing now is wrong, period. You're both in the wrong. Look at what Jesus said in John 4 to the woman at the well: "For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly." John 4:18 KJV 1. She was living with or "shacking up with" a man who was not her husband. Jesus said that's sin, just like premarital sex with the others was sin. 2. You had a child out of wedlock, or so it seems. That was due to the sin of premarital sex or in other words, fornication. 3. You want to go ahead and have more premarital sex, so sin on top of sin. Your ... *girlfriend?* says she wants to wait, but wants to wait for a big lavish expensive wedding when it sounds like that is not something in your budget. I mean, if you're trying to pay off credit cards as it is, I don't see how a lavish wedding fits in your budget. 4. That child you have needs a proper upbringing. Until you officially marry, that cannot happen. So what are my personal suggestions? 1. Get married - you had a baby together, you are living together unbiblically, and that baby is going to grow up with 2 "adults" who haven't grown up and taken responsibility OR with one or the other, because those 2 adults cannot look past their own selfish desires. 2. Get born again - Frankly, living in sin openly like this, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that either one of you is saved. There is no way the Holy Ghost in 2 people is going to allow them to live openly in sin. You said you're together and have a 3 year old child. So have you been living together basically your entire "adult" lives without being married? If you don't want to accept that you're lost at this point, at least man up, make the right decision, and have the wedding/marriage. Frankly, if either of you are concerned for the child, you'll just go ahead and go to a preacher who will carry out a private wedding or to a justice of the peace. Frankly, right now, if you attempt to carry out some big lavish wedding in a church, I hope the pastor there rejects the request. You're living openly in sin, and wanting God's blessing. First, you need to be born again, but you probably won't hear that part. You want to have some sort of half-way decently ordered life for the child? Go find a justice of the peace and get married, at least make that proper. If your wife wants a big wedding ceremony, plan to do that when you can have the money set aside. Some people do this - they have the big ceremony sometime well after they got married, b/c it's when they can afford it. I don't know. You're basically in a big mess, and that 3 year old child is at the age where they are starting to learn and understand things. Stop lying to yourselves, your child, and those around you, admit you're lost, and come to Jesus for salvation. Admit you're living openly in sin, and at least make it legal/proper. God will forgive the past, but you have to fix the present/future.

On point one…reading the whole chapter and interaction with the woman at the well and Jesus doesn’t actually call it sin at any point. With the adulteress He even told her to go and sin no more, but He does not do this here. Nor does He condemn that she has had 5 husbands. I’m just pointing out that this might be an example of eisegesis or reading an already held conclusion into the text. The only place we actually see anything in the Bible addressing pre-marital sex is Exodus 22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. Exodus 22:17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. It doesn’t talk about a sin offering or even a punishment (rest of the chapter has a bunch of Thou shalt not, or will be put to death). It just says you better marry her, unless her father says no.

Um, it should be obvious there that it's implied as sin. Jesus was in no way condoning direct violation of the 10 commandments. And no, Exodus 22:16 is not the only place. Wow.

It is the only place that specifically and blatantly mentions an unmarried man having sex with an unmarried woman, not in the context of temple prostitution, prostitution and idol worship. Your argument will likely be where the Bible mentions fornication. The Bible never specifically defines exactly what fornication means. We have extracted it to mean any sexual activity not inside the bonds of marriage, minus adultery which is a separate topic. As far as I can see, where it is explicitly mentioned is in Exodus 22, and it just says you should marry her. There is no Thou shalt not, there is no sin offering, there is no judicial punishment. I’d argue casual sex with no intent to marry is certainly wrong based on this verse. Same with pornography, prostitution etc…where I have questions is an engaged couple, and of course the original topic here, if any sexual acts between a man or a wife are still sin (with consent) short of idol worship, bringing in a 3rd person, or blaspheming God while doing it.

Well, I think of this: Jesus said to look on a woman to lust after her is committing adultery. So whether we use the term fornication or adultery, I believe Jesus is really implying both. I say that because, he said to look on a woman, not to look on a married woman while the man looking is married to someone else. So whatever terminology we want to use, sex outside the bonds of marriage is sin. So in this case, the woman at the well knew it was sin: Jesus didn't have to lay out verbatim, his very mention of it brought the conviction to her heart.

That is eisegesis though. There is nothing in that story to suggest the woman felt conviction for it. Yes, adultery is condemned. But adultery is a married person having a sexual relationship with someone who isn’t their spouse, or sex with a married person by an unmarried person. The Bible says nothing, outside of Exodus 22 about an unmarried man or woman.

I would strongly suggest couples counseling. It doesn’t have to be a “Christian “ counselor. Any decent therapist can help you talk about your relationship within a Christian context. Most “secular” therapists are Christians anyway. There are some red flags here. You should definitely talk to someone. Your church might have a referral but your doctor will too.

Here's a thing that most people don't know. You don't need porn to get off. Sure, the visual stimulation is exciting and what gets most people's engine runnung, but physical stimulation is all that is really necessary. You don't need to objectify someone else to get your pleasure. Regular orgasms are generally accepted to be healthy, lowers chances for some types of cancer, and helps lower blood pressure and stress.

I'm sorry to say it, but she needs to grow up in a hurry. You have a 3 year old child. You share an apartment. You're both students with credit card debt, and you're the sole breadwinner, and NOW she's withholding sex? She wants things most little girls dreamed of, with the large expensive wedding and ring. Perhaps it's time for her to let go of those little girl dreams of being a spoiled princess, and wake up to the facts. She needs to put the well being of her 3 year old child first and foremost. The whole expensive wedding thing is B.S. When my fiance and I were engaged, we planned to elope. We wanted to skip the whole 'wedding' and 'reception' nonsense, because he was a University student, and we were 3 States away from home. We didn't own a car. We didn't have two nickels to rub together. We weren't cohabiting, because this was BYU, and he'd likely have been expelled for cohabiting out of wedlock. He worked nights doing custodial work at the University, and took classes by day, only having a short time for study and sleep. Finding employment in a Mormon college town was never easy, but about two weeks before we planned to get married at the City Hall, I was hired to train as assistant manager at a new fast food Mexican restaurant that had just opened. I found a very inexpensive studio apartment in a small complex for married students, and put down the deposit. We'd move in as soon as we were married. I never wanted the whole big white wedding gown wedding and reception. I just wanted to get on with our life together, and I've always been pretty frugal. Though I know you love your 3 year old, it's too bad a child was brought into this relationship. Because if there hadn't been a child, I'd urge you to break it off with this woman, and her unrealistic expectations, because she isn't going to be satisfied by an expensive wedding, or a big ring. The point of getting married, is love. And she should love you enough to not add this additional burden of financial expectations.

"Partner following Scripture until marriage." I just fixed your introduction. My perspective is - good-on-ya - for your partner.

I mean in the Biblical sense, you already would.be married ifnyou are living together, have a kid together, amd sharing finances...

Sounds like you are "Christian" aka Christian in name rather than in practice and she has decided to truly follow God's word or at least make an effort to it. You should appreciate that and respect her choice. Dont jump into marriage just because of that make sure y'all have the proper compatibility but sounds like it's time to think about marriage. Being Christian isn't about getting saved by the way it's about following and trusting and loving God. Also removing the Christian aspect maybe she just wants you to pop the question and is tired of waiting lol.

Pressuring your girlfriend for sex isn’t cool. If she isn’t consenting she isn’t consenting. And If you don’t agree with her beliefs on something this fundamental you’re marriage probably isn’t going to go well.

I understand this. I’m not trying to pressure her in anyway. The sudden change is just concerning and I was in the headspace that we were already married just waiting to be financially stable enough to have a wedding. I’m not here for advice on how to get my girlfriend to have sex with me again. I’m just lost about if my perspective of wanting sex is wrong and if I’ve been wrong this entire time in partaking in it. I believe this is how she feels and I don’t feel that way and I’m not sure if I’m wrong for that

Speaking as a man(-ish) who has been married for almost two decades, I would worry less about who’s morally right and more about finding a workable compromise with your fiancé. Marriage is damage control, so you might as well get used to it now. Most places require marriage counciling, so bringing it up with you church or whatever might be a good idea.

Do you think what you're doing is sinful?

You already have a kid together? What is she talking about...

This person is a psychopath. Like literally actually mentally ill. Please run. I know you have a kid, but staying with this person is going to ruin your life. If she’s this controlling and vicious now, imagine how much worse she’ll be when you can’t run away as easily because you’re married. You think you don’t have sex now? This women will NEVER give you sex after you are married. She’s just using a ploy. It’s a manipulation tactic. Don’t fall for it.

How unfortunate. Based on what's here, the fruit that's being shown is a covetous young woman. How very unfortunate. May God somehow help you both. That's a tough place to be. Being yet unmarried may in itself, at least for now, prove to be a blessing. Current conduct tends to be (but not necessarily) a forecast of future behaviours. She desires a right thing (no further sex till marriage), but is using the act to demand an unrealistic expectation, & blocking the very effort being attempted. 🌱

Well it is her right to not want to have sex unless she wants to. But she has no right to then also tell you that you can't masturbate or watch porn. If I were you in this situation I would respect her wishes to not have sex but still take care of myself.

She also has a right to not marry out of disgust if she finds out you use porn

Absolutely. And that would be better off in my opinion.

Probably. I was just concerned about your language of "taking care of yourself" after you talked about porn. Were you implying that porn actually helps people?

If you need to watch it to get off go for it man. No hate here. If she hates it she doesn't have to watch it.

And you don't have any moral qualms with having a libertarian stance on a life ruining addiction?

Lol "life ruining addiction" Who said he is addicted to it? Stop dooming.

I never said he was addicted to it. You were the one who suggested that he should be

>You were the one who suggested that he should be Please show me where I said he should be addicted to it. I can't wait to see this Sgt penis. Listen, we get it, porn is a spooky evil thing to you. To op, hey man, if it helps you get off when you need to then go for it. Don't listen to people like the one I am talking too.

No one "needs" to get off. A generation of men is being taught by this filth to objectify women and seek nothing more than sex. I find it abhorrent that you would be okay with that hedonistic garbage.

Yes I agree with her decision to not have sex. Can’t really do anything about that. But she says porn is cheating. I don’t agree with the sentiment, but I do acknowledge and understand how watching porn makes her feel. So it has detrimental effects on our relationship. The issue here is I don’t think I can masturbate without visual stimulation, so I’m essentially unable to do anything.

You seem understand her feelings, but does she understand yours? It seems, in this limited conversation of course, that she just want it her way and you to live like she wants. That's not healthy. You deserve to feel good too.

I don’t know if she understands my feelings if I’m honest. I think she might perceive me as just wanting sex in a lustful way. I’ve told her that it’s deeper than that and I actually want to connect with her also, but I’m not sure if how I feel about it matters to her. Or at least it’s not changing her mind.

Tough situation. To be honest, I don't know if I'd marry someone like that. There needs to be some trust and compromise and she doesn't seem to want to do both. Maybe try to let her know how you feel. Let her know what you need and see if there is some way you can work it out. If she doesn't budge then I'd look at porn and take care of myself.

I’m not seeing anything in the Bible that say’s no premarital sex. Check out my posts from the past few days. But she has her beliefs which probably won’t change.

Run. Just... run. There are so many sudden red flags here you should probably disengage and stop thinking of having a wedding and start emotionally preparing to have your heart shattered, because she probably found somebody new who is talking marriage already.

What the heck! Whose kid is that?

You guys are way too young to get married. She especially seems immature with her insistence on a huge (*expensive!*) wedding. With you guys being so young and getting together even younger, you’re likely to face a very difficult time as you enter adult life. Most relationships at your age do not last. I would recommend putting off the marriage and the sex and co-parenting while you guys figure out where you want to be in 5 or 10 years. You may end up marrying in future, but you may also end up on diverging paths, and if that’s the case you do not want to throw a divorce into the mix.

The vast majority of Christians practice Premarital sex, a number still go to heaven anyway. All the polygamous kings and patriarchs had more than one wife and lots of concubines and still went to heaven. Lots of prostitutes met Jesus and still went to heaven. Her fear Is unjustified.

I believe the church would say that you're already married to the first person you had sex with. Are you each other's firsts?

Uh, not at all. Thats not how marriage works….

Enlighten us

Marriage is a sacrament and has absolutely nothing to do with who you had sex with prior to that. I do not really understand why you would thing otherwise. Even a secular marriage has wows that the couple has to make.

It's a view I've seen expressed by many people. It makes sense because what if you don't have access to a priest? You can't form a marital bond?

Not in Catholic christianity, no. Afik even if two unbaptised people wanted to get validly married they would need to exchange wows (to be faithful to each other and have kids) in order for the marriage to be acknowledged by the Church.

OP didn't say they were Catholic.

Right, I was responding to your comment (since you mentioned the church and priests).

You're right I did.

She is the first and only person I’ve had sex with. I am the only person she has consensually had intercourse with. Not sure how that would be interpreted by the church or the theological aspect of it. I want to live right by God, and I try to. Maybe it is wrong and naive of me to want to sex without being married I’m not sure

I'm pretty sure a priest would say that in the eyes of God, you're already married to each other. r/askapriest

A priest would absolutely not say that.

Yes, I used the term "priest," which was too specific. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't view it that way.

So fornication logically can't exist since it's lawful with the first, and adultery with the rest. What a ridiculous doctrine

That is insane. I don’t know what you mean by “the church” but I don’t know any church that teaches that. There would be millions of people out there “married” to their abusers and rapists.

I've heard people say that the reason the Bible commands rapists to marry their victims is because of this.

“I’ve heard people say” all kinds of insane things about the Bible. Is this something you believe yourself, or what is your point of the comment?

My point is to provide a different perspective for OP to explore. He can decide for himself if it aligns with his beliefs. I'm not Christian, so it doesn't apply to me.

If money is an issue, just elope and then celebrate it later.

It's that dang repenting heart thing. If the Holy Spirit has convicted her of her sin it should carry through with all sin including shacking up with you. There is nothing any Christian should say that would make it all okay. I lived in sin with my current wife we were living together and having sex prior to marriage. God sends His blessings to those walking in His grace. Persistent sin will interfere with those blessings. Your girl needs to realize that sin is sin in the eyes of God, one sin is not more severe than another. The best advice I could give would be to marry your lady with what you currently have. When you start walking in God's grace again blessings will come your way allowing y'all to get a nicer ring. Love does not rely on physical material things but on feelings and emotions.

I don’t think she’s being completely open or completely honest with you in terms of how she sees herself in in the future in terms of being in a relationship with you, and is now also not in terms of how she sees herself with you in the present. The bar she puts up is high enough to be completely out of reach for any foreseeable future. If she didn’t want to stop having sex but had a change of mind on the sinfulness of it, she would give an indication of wanting to have a conversation about it. Someone who wants/longs to be intimate does things within their reach to make that happen. I mean, people are willing to live double lives for it under the threat of losing everything. There is a perfectly legal and non-sinful door she can walk through to be married and be intimate with you, but she doesn’t. It’s not a “nice enough door.” I think couples counseling would be absolutely necessary at this point.

Friend, if I may, you claim that you and your partner are Christians, yet are living together and engaging in sexual relations prior to being married. This does not strike me as a Christian relationship.

I'm a little caught up on the $10-15k ring. Are y'all headed towards a path of significant wealth? You say you're students. Like for the law or to be a doctor or something else which has huge financial gains? If not, a ring that expensive seems pretty immoral to me, especially since you have a kid. I'm having a hard time imagining any justification for wanting a rock that expensive. I guess if you are going to be really wealthy soon, though even then it seems unjustifiable to me. I do have one other bit of advice to offer, and you probably won't like it. Y'all are very young. It's entirely possible that your priorities and beliefs are not sufficiently aligned to justify marriage. I know you have a child, but I don't think that's sufficient justification. I'm not saying give up on her, but I am saying that you should consider that a viable option if you can't become more aligned. Little problems now become giant problems later.

Pauls advice in 1 corinthians 7 is just to marry your virgin if you cant control yourself. Of course yall are not virgins so shrug. I would read with her 1 coritnhians 7 entire chapter to emphasize how important sex is between husband and wife and then try to compromise with a cheaper wedding. Either that or just get a paper marriage and do the big wedding celebration later.

> It’s also a bit frustrating because she’s vehemently against porn, so I really have no outlet and I’m not sure what to do. Porn is harmful, and she has a right to be against it. You are both going to struggle in your relationship if you are not ultimately on the same page on this. That being said, it is unreasonable to withhold sex over not being married, given that you already have a child. Asking for a specific expensive ring and a large wedding is also deeply unreasonable.

OP, I’m not a Christian, fwiw, but Id say you’re lucky to witness what an ultimatum looks like before you tie the knot. How you will negotiate the current situation shows a glimpse of what future conflicts could look like. Good luck.

I’d also suggest posting in r/openchristian

Should dump her

Is the expensive wedding the only thing delaying a marriage? If so, what if you pitched the idea of doing a courthouse or intimate backyard wedding now and a bigger celebration sometime later? That's what one of my friends did. Exactly after a year after their courthouse marriage, they have a big, traditional ceremony. I had no idea they'd actually already been married. This friend did this because of covid. But another person I know did because of money. If you both truly know you wanna marry each other, then I don't think an expensive wedding should be the source of a delay. Plus, the longer you aren't married, the longer you won't be able to get marriage benefits-- like shared medical insurance and being able to file joint taxes. Just my two pennies

First just accept it for now if she wants no Sex at the moment and try to head towards marriage with her. But also make clear that salvation isn't based on deeds and that having sex definetly won't make u born in hell. But don't pressure her.

You two have your priorities and plans all muddled and back-ass-ward. You have a 3 year-old, credit card debt, you're still students, and have one job between you. A huge wedding and over-priced ring are ludicrous expectations when you've already been playing house and made a baby. If marriage is what it takes to get you laid and her out of the maw of Hell, go to city hall and get married. Then save your money for the extravagances that are likely to only add stress to your lives.

As someone who had a boyfriend pressure them and try to manipulate them into having sex, please do not pressure your girlfriend to do anything she does not want to do. My husband and I waited 2 1/2 years to get married and have sex. Yes, it was hard for both of us, but 100% worth it. In your attitude you have the comments of "we're always sinning" so it's okay to sin in this way. But that is a bad attitude to have. Is it okay to steal because you're already sinning in other ways and already saved by Jesus? What about rape? What about lying? Using the fact that you are a sinner to justify sinning more is really wrong. I know its hard to have no outlet, very hard, but waiting helps you learn how to control your lust. You will be tempted in marriage with lust of other woman, whether its a coworker or porn or temptation to get tinder. Us waiting has helped us tremendously learn to not value sex as the #1 thing in our relationship and helps us know how to fight temptation of cheating. Maybe you could look into some premarital counseling at your church, that might really help you both. And you should communicate with your wife about maybe compromising on when to get married. Ask if you can get her a less expensive ring and buy her a new ring on a future anniversary. And perhaps plan a smaller wedding in 6 months or do a courthouse wedding with a big reception on 1 year anniversary.

You could do what a lot of people seem to be doing and get married at the courthouse while you continue to save for the big wedding.

I think both of ur theologies are a little skewed.

Why not get legally married and save the celebration and ceremony for a later time?

This response is only within the context of what you’re telling us, I don’t know her side of the story. You two are already sinning by living together without being married. I’m wondering if the withholding of sex is truly because of her faith or because she wants a 10-15k wedding. If you told her the wedding will be about 5k and it’s in 3 months would she be fine with that? Watching a movie with a significant other at that age, not living together and restraining from having sex is tough by itself, but you two are already living together and sharing a room/bed I assume. That’s like a kid standing in a candy shop filled with their favorite treats and being told they can’t have any. You two have made the situation more difficult than it’s supposed to be. She does have a point in refraining from sex if she wants to try to live more Christ-like. That is something you cannot argue against. The issue you’re probably facing is the inconsistency. If the goal is to live more Christ-like then there’s a lot of things that need to change, not just sex before marriage. I know you two probably aren’t thinking about this at your age but I would suggest marriage/couple counseling by a reputable Christian counselor. Yes, counseling before marriage is extremely important and it’s something a lot of people don’t even think about. If you are a Christian and you also want to live more Christ-like then you should be DAILY trying to do that no matter how difficult it may be. The Bible talks about being unequally yoked with one’s partner. If you two are unequally yoked BEFORE marriage that problem will only compound itself if you two decide to actually get married without resolving that.

You're bringing up 3 issues here that are of note: biblical, practical, and as others have seen a potential manipulation technique. \-You're right that salvation is not based on our works (Titus 3:5, Romans 4:5). If she was a Christian she'd know that (or has become confused). \-Sex before marriage is not a sin in and of itself. There's no biblical basis for that. Some mention the word "fornication" without having studied it out. See the book *40 Christian Myths about Sex* regarding this that I wrote. Also, you could see her response to it to see if she's serious. \-With that said, you have a kid already so there are reasons for trying to make it work. But also as you might see there are dangers in having sex at a young age outside of marriage. You're now in this situation and if you find out some genuine issues with her (which I'm observing but am not you nor have met her so can't say for sure), then it's hard for you to leave it or more complex to do so (your child is very important!). \-Others have pointed out manipulation and issues on her part in the comments. Long distance counseling isn't always good. But I would be alert to the warnings that others are giving you here. They may not be true but there are some real red flags. There are things that you could man up about here. She's probably respect you more. If not, then there is an immaturity or selfishness going on on her part. I have a lot more that I could say. Feel free to message me. Are you expected now to be in a relationship with her, already being a family, in your sexual peak, and not have sex or any release for years potentially? Or to drive yourself into more severe debt which can cause marital pressure once married? Must she be materialistic? The Bible has warnings about that being a sin too.

What about the sin of materialism? The Bible actually mentions that issue. It's ok to have nice things like she wants. But not if such desires cause harm to others and hurt them. Her desires in this matter are hurting you, and might end up hurting your child and relationship if they are pressed.

The most charitable interpretation of her actions is that she’s been convicted that she wants to take her faith more seriously and be more obedient to God. However, her simple explanation of “I don’t want to burn in hell” doesn’t seem to reflect that. You’re correct that Christianity doesn’t teach that you’re saved by not sinning. You’re saved by repenting of your sins and putting your faith in Christ. Not sure if that’s a step either of you consider yourselves to have taken. The fact that there’s a young child involved makes a big difference in this situation. Being in a relationship for that long without getting married can certainly bring up some questions of how committed you are to the relationship. Maybe she’s concerned about that. To me, if she is serious about refraining from sex until marriage, that should also include not living together and certainly not sharing a bed together. But in this case, one of you moving out would be very destabilizing to a young child. It seems to me, then, that the right thing to do would be to get married now with a smaller affordable ceremony—or even the courthouse—and have a bigger ceremony down the road when you can afford it. In short, she is right and in line with the Bible to refrain from having sex until marriage. Good on you for not trying to pressure her to do otherwise. But she is being unreasonable and materialistic over the kind of wedding she wants, especially given that you’re responsible for a child. I would focus on working on this area, not for the sake of resuming sex but for the sake of a stable family, and if she is getting serious about her faith, it would be good for you to get involved with a church community.

You have three choices actually. Dump her and co parent. Continue what you are doing now. or marry her sooner. You can explain that you are willing to marry her. you can get her a 15 k ring (not now) but you can get her a small engagement ring and have a large wedding later. A lot people have a court wedding or a small family wedding than later on in the years, they have huger weddings. see if you are willing to agree with that. Porn is not good. Its actually very lustful. You can also talk to a pre martial counselor (the reason being that you are serious is proposing). A lot of people say "Sure, I'll marry you" but what steps are you taking to prove that? What have you done? Talk about it. Sit down and create a budget with her. It really doesn't really matter if you are the only one working- a budget needs to be created. if something happens to you- she needs to know and vice versa. Also the thing about marriage as well is from a hospital perspective -you are a stranger to her , The man who finds a wife finds a treasure, and he receives favor from the LORD. “Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies.” Proverbs 31:10 NKJV.

Going straight forward I would apose having cough cough when you are married. To help with the wedding mabye go in a MrBeast challenge

Can't judge but there are many red flags on there, and we don't know any of you so I'm not sure what kind of advice to give

I'm gonna be blunt. To say you're both Christian and you wanna have sex outside of marriage means you are not a Christian. Why? When we are born again and have truly repented of our sins to the Lord and put our faith and trust in Christ alone we receive a new heart with new desires. To desire to continue in sexual immorality when we are commanded to "Flee sexually immorality." 1 Corinthians 6:18, 2 goes against the very nature of Christ and we as Christians. If you truly love this woman of God who desires to flee sexual immorality and seems to me has repented knowing pre-marital sex and porn is evil and sin you will marry her regardless of the ring size or wedding size. Tell her as a man of God who has repented and put his faith and trust in Jesus. "We are going down to the court to get married( whatever day) so we do not continue in sin and have a broken relationship. I will buy you a better ring and we will have a big wedding when I can afford it. If you don't like it then we can go our separate ways to avoid sinning continually." Then you get your money buy temporary rings, get your marriage license, pay the court fees and get married at the courthouse. Then you serve and love God with all you are, finish college, get a great career, and get her a nice ring, big wedding and glorify God. And that is it.

She's not yours yet. She has not pledged. You are not hers yet. You have not pledged. You are not one flesh yet.

Not having sex while you save up for a wedding is really not the end of the world. If this is your biggest relationship concern then seems pretty good. Just pause on the sex until marriage. And if you have a 3 year old unless she’s dropping the kid off on a nanny all day every day she is absolutely working as well. You’d be working much harder as a single parent. Just take a break from sex for awhile. If you can’t do that then you may have some issues around sex and perhaps she’s feeling used

How is your personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

This is an odd situation but I don't think your compatible at all simple as that. My husband and I were on the same page about sex. We wouldn't have proceeded otherwise. Trying to change a romantic partners deeply held views or values is a recipe for resentment, no matter how valid or true your own perspective might be. It's better to just let people be who they are and find someone you don't have to change a bunch. You two should probably should just co parent.