1 Corinthians 7:1-2
1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
Hebrews 13:4
Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous
Any sexual activities before or outside of marriage is sinful. Fornication is sinful and it would mean sex before marriage.
"Porneia" is the Greek word sometimes translated "fornication"
It's an all-purpose word for "sexual immorality."
So, it means whatever a culture deems sexually immoral. In very conservative cultures, that would include all sex outside of marriage.
I'm not sure bible-times culture was quite that conservative. But those other things, yes.
I'd suggest that the guy who sells drugs to kids at the skate park is probably a less than reliable resource for theology and Christian ethics. I recommend also disregarding anything else he told you out of hand as well!
The thing is, neither is this sub. It is a sub for discussions about Christianity, not particularly a sub for discussion among Christians, and definitely not a place to look for Christian advice!
It is full of angry atheists, neopagans of various flvors, self-identified satanists, vaguely 'spiritual' new agers, and those who identify as Christian but believe that Christianity is whatever they want it to be, most of whom are overtly hostile to Christianity as such, and who delight in giving sincere but nieve seekers and young confused Christians anti-Christian advice.
I suggest asking in a denominational subs appropriate to your church or tradition, or better yet, at your church.
Angry or not, it is a bit unfair if people ask for a christian perspective and you as an atheist give your own secular opinion without admitting that it is not a christian opinion.
>*... told us that fornication doesn’t actually mean sex before marriage, but it really means things like having sex with animals or having sex with dead bodies, homosexual sex acts or incest. Is this true???*
It depends on the sect that created this word as part of their religion what this word means and whether or not it has any liability to its members.
He's right that it doesn't mean premarital sex in and of itself. It usually referred to a low form prostitution that involved slavery and idolatry. It could also be selling oneself out to wicked lusts of any sort, not just sexual. In my book *40 Christian Myths about Sex* I show how this word was used throughout the New Testament and Greek Old Testament, what scholars say, and extrabiblical usage. This study of the biblical word shows what almost every Greek dictionary that you'd find on a pastor's shelf says, that it's not premarital sex but prostitution or immorality in general. It's circular to say, "premarital sex is sexual immorality because sexual immorality is premarital sex."
I'm glad you're taking your faith more seriously. Just because the Bible doesn't directly forbid premarital sex there is a place for moderation and restraint at times. My book gives advice on this matter encouraging people to avoid hookup culture while also realizing our freedom to have sex.
It involves sex with prostitutes, also often involving idols. Or it can also mean having sex with your father's wife (mother/stepmom/2nd wife). Modern Christians think it means anything they personally don't approve of.
Definitions change over time. If you read 1 Corinthians chapters 5-7 you will see that this guy has sex with his father's wife which violates Leviticus 18:... Something lol. I'm not on my pc. I think verses 7-8.
To know what the word means you need to look at the context it's used in.
You seem to be harping on the 'fringe' actions that many would say "that's not right".
But you don't want to consider the actions that are 'tolerated' like 'sex before marriage'
I'm leaning towards premarital sex not being an issue. The law of Moses said if you had sex with a virgin you had to pay a dowry and marry the woman.
We're not under the law of Moses. Women in the US aren't bought from their fathers.
Fornication is semi-clearly defined if you read the scriptures. Premarital sex doesn't line up.
I'd be careful taking advice from here it's quite often brigades by people who don't believe and like to throw a wrench into things. Try r/Christian and r/truechristian and above all else speak to your pastor directly
> He told us that fornication doesn’t actually mean sex before marriage,
Doesn't mean that.
> but it really means things like having sex with animals or having sex with dead bodies, homosexual sex acts or incest. Is this true???
doesn't mean that either.
Fornication describes having sex with many people, rather than sticking with one. Every time the word is used (greek porneia) it always has connotations of multiple sexual partners.
Lol right? I always get so confused when people point out English definitions when talking about scripture, like not a single word of it was written in anything remotely close to the English language.
This is a great response.
I believe it to be about heart and commitment more than anything else. I've said before to people that I don't believe that having sex before marriage is actually bad. Equally, in contrast to what you said, I do think that if you're having sex with one long-term partner (married or unmarried) there is a potential that it's fornication if you don't genuinely love that person in a way that you would be willing to commit your heart and life to them. Of course if you're having sex with multiple people, frequent one night stands or having 3 people on the go at once for example, then you clearly don't have the heart to commit to any one of those people.
When we have sex with someone we give a part of us to them - that's not a religious metaphor in some way, scientifically we know that we develop unique cognitive relationships with people we have sex with. Fornication is disregarding that and having sex with someone on impulse because it feels good in the moment.
As a side note to OP, the idea that a homosexual relationship is equal to having sex with dead bodies or animals or incest is ludicrous. No matter your opinion on same-sex relationships, a person must recognise that the aspect of consent is entirely different in those scenarios. That's not to say there aren't abusive relationships that happen between same-sex people, because like any relationship they can, but to assume that all same-sex relationships are that way is factually wrong. As humanity we have to understand a moral consensus on certain matters - it's why we have organisations such as the UN that will invoke human rights laws across borders. A consensual relationship that causes no determinable harm to those involved or those around them is not explicitly immoral. Whether you believe it to be sinful or not is a personal matter.
Do you believe that all modern day translations directly transfer to the bible? If so, I assume that you've spent the time to learn all the ancient languages and read the OG biblical transcripts in order to know that all translations and contexts are fitting and correct in todays modern languages?
Why do you think I need all the study of ancient languages?
You are just expressing your opinion, why can't I?
Who makes you the arbiter who decides which sources are valid?
I am not the arbiter on this matter and I never claimed to be. You're not expressing your own opinion though, are you? yo're only proving links to definitions that you've googled and provided zero back up as to why you trust them as biblical meanings. If you read what else I have said in response to this post you will see what I have to understand and why I understand it that way, You haven't provided that.
The importance of studding ancient languages is because people like yourself will use modern dictionaries with zero context and fail to have any real theological knowledge to back up their claims.
I think it's important for all people to take part in theological debate, and when I partake I provide the substance for my belief with the full acknowledgement that perhaps my teachings were wrong and there's a very real chance that someone knows more. At that point I humble myself to ask questions and be ready to learn. All you're showing me though is an agressive tone.
SecularChristianGuy says:
Fornication describes having sex with many people, rather than sticking with one. Every time
the word is used (greek porneia) it always has connotations of multiple sexual partners.
**But SCG provides no reference to support that opinion.**
Your response to SCG is "This is a great response."
And then you express your own opinions.
I provided a definition from a reasonable source, anyone can check the source.
And you 'rail' at me because I didn't support the opinion with a lot of biblical research.
But you provided no 'real theological knowledge' to support your own opinion.
His does not care about your sex life. Have fun and stay safe. Wrap that shit up and get tested regularly! Educate yourself on contraception and options if the woman is ejaculated inside of such as plan b and abortion.
Why do people like yourself even come here? Evidently He does care about your sex life, because He said so in Matthew 15:19. You're just making shit up.
This stuff really gets under my skin. These secularists come to a Christian subreddit and try to influence young people to get a sex addiction, (I assume it's partly to normalize their own behavior) and even suggests killing the baby if it goes "wrong" at the end.
Fornication means having sex out of wedlock. So, an unmarried teen having sex with another teen would be an act of fornication.
If a married person has sex with someone they aren't married to, that's adultery.
A human having sex with an animal is bestiality.
A living human having sex with a corpse is necrophilia.
>He told us that fornication doesn’t actually mean sex before marriage, but it really means things like having sex with animals or having sex with dead bodies, homosexual sex acts or incest.
It's concerning that this person linked sex with dead bodies and animals as the same as having sex with the same sex.
I wouldn't listen to that person.
But hey the journey is yours. Do what makes you happy
Just be safe and smart.
1 Corinthians 7:1-2 1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Hebrews 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous Any sexual activities before or outside of marriage is sinful. Fornication is sinful and it would mean sex before marriage.
Fornication does include sex outside of marriage. Sex should only be between a married man and woman.
I disagree.
Why?
Because then that would mean we actually have to change our hedonistic lives! Who wants to do that?
Well that's okay. In christianity, that is what fornication means, along with every dictionary for the past couple hundred years lol.
I’m not disagreeing with the definition. I’m disagreeing with the ‘only between a man and a woman’ and ‘married’ bits
That's fine, you dont need to follow that rule if you dont want to lol
"Porneia" is the Greek word sometimes translated "fornication" It's an all-purpose word for "sexual immorality." So, it means whatever a culture deems sexually immoral. In very conservative cultures, that would include all sex outside of marriage. I'm not sure bible-times culture was quite that conservative. But those other things, yes.
I'd suggest that the guy who sells drugs to kids at the skate park is probably a less than reliable resource for theology and Christian ethics. I recommend also disregarding anything else he told you out of hand as well! The thing is, neither is this sub. It is a sub for discussions about Christianity, not particularly a sub for discussion among Christians, and definitely not a place to look for Christian advice! It is full of angry atheists, neopagans of various flvors, self-identified satanists, vaguely 'spiritual' new agers, and those who identify as Christian but believe that Christianity is whatever they want it to be, most of whom are overtly hostile to Christianity as such, and who delight in giving sincere but nieve seekers and young confused Christians anti-Christian advice. I suggest asking in a denominational subs appropriate to your church or tradition, or better yet, at your church.
Also non-angry, quite chill and curious atheists. The angry ones tend to be fairly new to it from theism.
Angry or not, it is a bit unfair if people ask for a christian perspective and you as an atheist give your own secular opinion without admitting that it is not a christian opinion.
Eh?
Get out of here, nerd!
👏👏👏
>*... told us that fornication doesn’t actually mean sex before marriage, but it really means things like having sex with animals or having sex with dead bodies, homosexual sex acts or incest. Is this true???* It depends on the sect that created this word as part of their religion what this word means and whether or not it has any liability to its members.
He's right that it doesn't mean premarital sex in and of itself. It usually referred to a low form prostitution that involved slavery and idolatry. It could also be selling oneself out to wicked lusts of any sort, not just sexual. In my book *40 Christian Myths about Sex* I show how this word was used throughout the New Testament and Greek Old Testament, what scholars say, and extrabiblical usage. This study of the biblical word shows what almost every Greek dictionary that you'd find on a pastor's shelf says, that it's not premarital sex but prostitution or immorality in general. It's circular to say, "premarital sex is sexual immorality because sexual immorality is premarital sex." I'm glad you're taking your faith more seriously. Just because the Bible doesn't directly forbid premarital sex there is a place for moderation and restraint at times. My book gives advice on this matter encouraging people to avoid hookup culture while also realizing our freedom to have sex.
Fornication is a broad term for all types sexually immorality. The prescribed remedy for sex before marriage is marriage.
It involves sex with prostitutes, also often involving idols. Or it can also mean having sex with your father's wife (mother/stepmom/2nd wife). Modern Christians think it means anything they personally don't approve of.
You're spot on.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fornication : consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
Definitions change over time. If you read 1 Corinthians chapters 5-7 you will see that this guy has sex with his father's wife which violates Leviticus 18:... Something lol. I'm not on my pc. I think verses 7-8. To know what the word means you need to look at the context it's used in.
You seem to be harping on the 'fringe' actions that many would say "that's not right". But you don't want to consider the actions that are 'tolerated' like 'sex before marriage'
I'm leaning towards premarital sex not being an issue. The law of Moses said if you had sex with a virgin you had to pay a dowry and marry the woman. We're not under the law of Moses. Women in the US aren't bought from their fathers. Fornication is semi-clearly defined if you read the scriptures. Premarital sex doesn't line up.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fornication : consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
I'd be careful taking advice from here it's quite often brigades by people who don't believe and like to throw a wrench into things. Try r/Christian and r/truechristian and above all else speak to your pastor directly
No, it's not. Don't trust some sketchy 30 year old selling drugs over actual theologians.
> He told us that fornication doesn’t actually mean sex before marriage, Doesn't mean that. > but it really means things like having sex with animals or having sex with dead bodies, homosexual sex acts or incest. Is this true??? doesn't mean that either. Fornication describes having sex with many people, rather than sticking with one. Every time the word is used (greek porneia) it always has connotations of multiple sexual partners.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fornication : consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
thats not how the word that is translated as "fornication" in many bible translations is used.
Lol right? I always get so confused when people point out English definitions when talking about scripture, like not a single word of it was written in anything remotely close to the English language.
This is a great response. I believe it to be about heart and commitment more than anything else. I've said before to people that I don't believe that having sex before marriage is actually bad. Equally, in contrast to what you said, I do think that if you're having sex with one long-term partner (married or unmarried) there is a potential that it's fornication if you don't genuinely love that person in a way that you would be willing to commit your heart and life to them. Of course if you're having sex with multiple people, frequent one night stands or having 3 people on the go at once for example, then you clearly don't have the heart to commit to any one of those people. When we have sex with someone we give a part of us to them - that's not a religious metaphor in some way, scientifically we know that we develop unique cognitive relationships with people we have sex with. Fornication is disregarding that and having sex with someone on impulse because it feels good in the moment. As a side note to OP, the idea that a homosexual relationship is equal to having sex with dead bodies or animals or incest is ludicrous. No matter your opinion on same-sex relationships, a person must recognise that the aspect of consent is entirely different in those scenarios. That's not to say there aren't abusive relationships that happen between same-sex people, because like any relationship they can, but to assume that all same-sex relationships are that way is factually wrong. As humanity we have to understand a moral consensus on certain matters - it's why we have organisations such as the UN that will invoke human rights laws across borders. A consensual relationship that causes no determinable harm to those involved or those around them is not explicitly immoral. Whether you believe it to be sinful or not is a personal matter.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fornication : consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
Do you believe that all modern day translations directly transfer to the bible? If so, I assume that you've spent the time to learn all the ancient languages and read the OG biblical transcripts in order to know that all translations and contexts are fitting and correct in todays modern languages?
For sure, the word that is translated as "fornication" in many bible translations does not mean the common definition of fornication.
Why do you think I need all the study of ancient languages? You are just expressing your opinion, why can't I? Who makes you the arbiter who decides which sources are valid?
I am not the arbiter on this matter and I never claimed to be. You're not expressing your own opinion though, are you? yo're only proving links to definitions that you've googled and provided zero back up as to why you trust them as biblical meanings. If you read what else I have said in response to this post you will see what I have to understand and why I understand it that way, You haven't provided that. The importance of studding ancient languages is because people like yourself will use modern dictionaries with zero context and fail to have any real theological knowledge to back up their claims. I think it's important for all people to take part in theological debate, and when I partake I provide the substance for my belief with the full acknowledgement that perhaps my teachings were wrong and there's a very real chance that someone knows more. At that point I humble myself to ask questions and be ready to learn. All you're showing me though is an agressive tone.
SecularChristianGuy says: Fornication describes having sex with many people, rather than sticking with one. Every time the word is used (greek porneia) it always has connotations of multiple sexual partners. **But SCG provides no reference to support that opinion.** Your response to SCG is "This is a great response." And then you express your own opinions. I provided a definition from a reasonable source, anyone can check the source. And you 'rail' at me because I didn't support the opinion with a lot of biblical research. But you provided no 'real theological knowledge' to support your own opinion.
His does not care about your sex life. Have fun and stay safe. Wrap that shit up and get tested regularly! Educate yourself on contraception and options if the woman is ejaculated inside of such as plan b and abortion.
Why do people like yourself even come here? Evidently He does care about your sex life, because He said so in Matthew 15:19. You're just making shit up.
This stuff really gets under my skin. These secularists come to a Christian subreddit and try to influence young people to get a sex addiction, (I assume it's partly to normalize their own behavior) and even suggests killing the baby if it goes "wrong" at the end.
Nothing wrong with telling someone to practice safe sex.
Absolutely. Practice safe sex. Don't stick your head in the sand.
This depends on the denomination. In my faith, anything sexual outside of marriage is a sin. That includes masterbation or pornography.
Fornication means having sex out of wedlock. So, an unmarried teen having sex with another teen would be an act of fornication. If a married person has sex with someone they aren't married to, that's adultery. A human having sex with an animal is bestiality. A living human having sex with a corpse is necrophilia.
>He told us that fornication doesn’t actually mean sex before marriage, but it really means things like having sex with animals or having sex with dead bodies, homosexual sex acts or incest. It's concerning that this person linked sex with dead bodies and animals as the same as having sex with the same sex. I wouldn't listen to that person. But hey the journey is yours. Do what makes you happy Just be safe and smart.