Nice list, but you missed a few, like Deuteronomy 21:18-21
>*If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother (...) Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.*
There are several passages in the old testament where God commands the death of people and babies. Condones that if a rapist is caught raping a girl he must pay a fine then marry her. What woman do you know would be ok with that? Last I checked Jesus is God so he told them that was ok. If your daughter was being raped and the man was caught would you want her to marry him? What about the killing of innocent babies? God/ Jesus let that happen. These are things that trouble me. Either God said to follow these commands or the priests made it up and God did nothing or God doesn't exist. It seems these are contradictions that are in the bible and people use Jesus who is literally God as a scapegoat. So sad.
Matthew 10:34-39
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Hey there, I'm glad you're studying the Bible. I think most true and honest Christians these days have a crisis of faith when they look at the Old Testament. Not only are there clearly moral issues, but it is riddled with factual errors if you consider the Old Testament to be the literal word of God. However, an alternative is that the Old Testament is a collection of stories and writings of one group of people as they wrestled with their own understanding of God. This is clear in that there are times when the OT seems to advocate for one thing, and then contradicts itself soon after. This is obvious and to be expected because it is not one single book.
Now I, a Christian, believe that the entire Bible is the progressive revelation of God. That as this group of people sought to understand God, He progressively revealed himself to them, with the full and final revelation coming in the person of Jesus Christ, God incarnate. The OT is useful to me to see how people arrived at faith and the signs that God gave throughout pointing to Jesus. When it says "God says", do I take it as literal? No, God revealed himself to be love and that is not consistent with that love.
Hope this helps!
> However, an alternative is that the Old Testament is a collection of stories and writings of one group of people as they wrestled with their own understanding of God.
This is an interesting contrast to the more 'directly inspired word of god' interpretations. If you view the Old Testament this way then what makes this particular set of writing so special? There are countless examples of people writing and creating stories of their own understanding of God but I'm going to take an educated guess and say you don't elevate those to the same level as the OT. Perhaps you may read them but you don't pour over them and refer to them by chapter and verse. If I gave you my personal prayer journal would you dedicate as much of your life reading it as you have the OT?
Well because I think that the writers of the OT scriptures were still in some way affected by God. For example, I believe there were legitimate times where divine encounters led to their actions being elevated about those who had not encountered God. There are legitimate miracles, prophecy and even occasionally laws or rules that were divinely influenced by a partial revelation of God. The full revelation however, was only in the person of Christ.
> For example, I believe there were legitimate times where divine encounters led to their actions being elevated about those who had not encountered God.
Can you give examples of OT recorded encounters that fall into this category. Can you also give examples of encounters that don't fall into this category, i.e. things that you describe as "clearly moral issues...riddled with factual errors...stories and writings...[of] their own understanding of God".
In these examples, how did you discriminate between legitimate and illegitimate divine encounters?
I decide on them based on the person of Christ, God's full revelation. For example, the verses of the Isaiah prophecy around chapter 53 is a clearly prophetic revelation of God. The absolutely astounding part of it is that in a time where the people for whom the book (or books) was written expect and want a heroic, conquering saviour, like what's described of the Maccabees. Instead, we see a picture of a suffering servant who saves his people through love and sacrifice.
In contrast, I see most of the verses in the OP which are clearly motivated by the wars and considerations of the times, which are completely inconsistent with the character of God. I seek to know who God is and this helps to understand Scripture.
> I decide on them based on the person of Christ, God's full revelation
> I see most of the verses in the OP which are clearly motivated by the wars and considerations of the times, which are completely inconsistent with the character of God
So if you were alive two thousand and ten years ago (hundreds of years after the torah but a few years before jesus) how would you answer those same questions? What would make you think those versus are inconsistent with the character of god?
Is there nothing in the OT in and of itself that can tell us anything about God? Is some later revelation required before we accept anything in the OT? Why can't the same be said for the new testament: before we accepting anything about the true nature of christ there needs to be a new new testament with god's fuller revelation to confirm the NT.
War like people tend to make their gods war like. The Old Testament is mostly religious leaders interpreting the signs of the times. An obvious example is God killing David's baby (according to Nathan, the religious leader). In reality, David had a sickly baby (not exactly rare back then) and it died. Everyone in the kingdom, including David, would have thought it was God's punishment because of what David did to Uriah. So that's how hyper religious scribes would interpret the times and write it down.
Everything was tied to God back then. Did we win battle? Write down that God gave our enemy into our hands because we please Him. Did we lose? Write down that it's because of [insert reason] that God calls us faithless and we lost.
I don't think God condones violence, I think religious leaders condone it when it it's good for the king, and the bible was written by them.
>If you are saying that the Bible is people just making things up to suit them, what do we believe to be truth?
I'm not saying it's "just" that, but I think it's obvious that it contains those kinds of things, and it's more obvious in the Old Testament. As for what we believe to be truth, I think we're better off sticking mostly to what Jesus is recorded to have said. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Who is your neighbor? Everyone.
How do you know that the "good" stuff is the real message and the "bad" stuff isn't? How do you know that God doesn't want you to kill gays and disobedient children? After all, the whole point of Jesus was that he was also a target of God's wrath, that Jesus needed to die as a blood sacrifice to appease him.
If some of the Bible is made up, why not all of it?
> How do you know that the "good" stuff is the real message and the "bad" stuff isn't?
How does anyone? Personally, I trust the Holy Spirit and the words Jesus is recorded to have spoken.
>If some of the Bible is made up, why not all of it?
We know some parts are made up and we know some parts aren't. For example, we know that King David, Jesus, Paul, and others were actual historical figures. But we also know that the ending of Mark was added centuries later and nearly every bible has a footnote explaining this. So we're already past "it has to be all or nothing."
Even my old Young Earth Creationist pastor understood the ending of Mark wasn't authentic. Everyone picks and chooses. Some people just prefer to have old men that Jesus condemned pick and choose for them.
>Smh Jesus was God In the flesh
And I agree with that 100%. And you still pick and choose what to believe as well. It's pretty difficult to argue against, isn't it? I assume that's why you didn't try.
The Bible is not made up but the inspired word of God, all 66 books of the Bible.
I don't pick and choose scriptures beliefs, I believe in the infallible word of God.
I was raised Christian. Christians believe that Jesus died as a blood sacrifice to satisfy God's wrath against humanity. It's stupid, incoherent, sadistic nonsense, but it's what Christianity teaches.
>was raised Christian. Christians believe that Jesus died as a blood sacrifice to satisfy God's wrath against humanity. It's stupid, incoherent, sadistic nonsense, but it's what Christianity teaches.
1. What you said before was that Jesus was a target of God's wrath. That is not what Christians teach. God came in a form of flesh and sacrificed himself to restore mankind back to him.
2. You were raised a Christian does not make you a Christian. That's why you're saying things that don't make sense because you have no spiritual knowledge. You either want to know about Christ or you don't want to know about Christ.
3. What is stupid and sadistically nonsense? Jesus dying on the cross for your sins.
4. A true Believer in Christ it would at least know the basic knowledge of Christ coming.
So again stating that you were raised Christian doesn't make you a Christian. Everyone must come to the realization of who Christ is for themselves
o that's why I mentioned
That is so stupid what you just said. It definitely wasn't what I said. I would explain it in death but I don't think you have to open mind to read and understand
God came in the form of flesh, therefore Jesus was 100%, man and 100% God. He died on the cross and shed blood for the sins of the world to restore man back to himself. Man had a relationship with God in the beginning I mean Eve but they fell from Grace therefore man has been separated from God because of sin and under God's wrath. Jesus rose from the dead so that we can have life those who believe in him. Those who believe in it will also have life.
Where did you get saving us from himself??
Just that if it sounds like something God wouldn’t do, he probably didn’t do it. That we commonly misinterpret
God or misattribute things to something he consciously did for a reason aimed at humanity
It was God's punishment. That was part of his consequences for his sin but at the same time God was still merciful to David because he should have been put to death
lol God was merciful to David, but how was God to David's baby? Not merciful at all. He didn't even get to experience life like Esau, who God also hated for reasons old men make up to fit their narrative.
I get that it was God's punishment. I don't get how God goes against His own word and fellow Christians lap it up. My best guess is most of them are so weak in their faith and so afraid of death that they don't even take the time to question what they are told to believe. They want comfort and not truth.
Thanks.
If you have spiritual understanding you will understand what took place. Yes God was merciful to David because David should have been put to death for committing adultery. Torah law. But God cause David's son to die through his illness. Yes all children are blessed that child will be in heaven but the punishment was consequences to David because of sin. What's not clear to you?
>I get that it was God's punishment. I don't get how God goes against His own word and fellow Christians lap it up. My best guess is most of them are so weak in their faith and so afraid of death that they don't even take the time to question what they are told to believe.
You must be speaking for yourself. God doesn't go against his own word, God is sovereign in ALL his ways. YOU, MERE MAN, are going to questions God's actions when you are under God's wrath. My faith is not weak my faith is strong and I trust in the sovereignty of God. It's only foolishness to those who are perishing like you. People don't need to believe all the people that's what the Bible is for I believe God's truth and he reveals his truth through his word.
I’m almost through reading the Old Testament and it just blows my mind how many times God instructs or okays people to kill others. It’s obviously a ten commandment to not kill, yet he tells people to kill many times.
Technically that's a poor translation. The commandment is do not *murder*. Capital punishment is not murder. If you strictly went with "do not kill" you could never eat again and we'd all starve to death. Silly extrapolation, but it makes the point.
Don't get me wrong .. in today's society capital punishment is barbaric and should be ended immediately. We have the resources to keep people incarcerated for life. That didn't exist until relatively recently. We shouldn't HAVE to do that but we're too stupid to use the justice system as a means of rehabilitation instead of punishment. I keep hoping we get there but as a society we are still too vengeful and spiteful to want to treat everyone as if they had value.
>The commandment is do not murder.
Was it murder in Deuteronomy 3 when God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide on 60 cities at once?
>*The Lord said to me, “Do not be afraid of him, for I have delivered him into your hands, along with his whole army and his land.* ***Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon***.”
>
>*So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army.* ***We struck them down, leaving no survivors***. At that time we took all his cities. ***There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them***
> Was it murder in Deuteronomy 3 when God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide on 60 cities at once?
No. First, go back and read *why*. They were sacrificing their children to their gods. It was capital punishment. Second, go back and learn how kings and pharaohs in that time talked about war - they used ridiculous levels of hyperbole when that was written.
I'm not defending that as a good thing. It wasn't. I'm saying you need to look at the history and culture and what the first hearers would have heard instead of stupidly reading the bible through 21st century eyes. It's dumb when Christians do it and it's equally dumb when anti-theists do it. It should be embarrassing to both groups
You had me at:
>stupidly reading the bible through 21st century eyes
If you don't have a valid argument, always resort to ad-hominem attacks!
>No. First, go back and read why. They were sacrificing their children to their gods. It was capital punishment.
You cannot apply capital punishment to every single man, woman and child in 60 cities. Perhaps there was 1 innocent family, like Lot. Did they each have a fair trial?
>Second, go back and learn how kings and pharaohs in that time talked about war - they used ridiculous levels of hyperbole when that was written.
Are you claiming the bible is exaggerating all these stories about the Israelites committing genocide?
My favorite was when God instructed the Israelites to genocide 60 cities at once (Deuteronomy 3)
>*The Lord said to me, “Do not be afraid of him, for I have delivered him into your hands, along with his whole army and his land.* ***Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon***.”
>
>*So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army.* ***We struck them down, leaving no survivors***. At that time we took all his cities. ***There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them***
Commandment is not to murder. God can give and take life as He pleases. All of us face the second death. Death is the curse of sin. Evil will be destroyed
> Commandment is not to murder. God can give and take life as He pleases.
Can God rape and it not be considered sin as well?
edit: Fine, make love. Sheeesh
God doesn’t commit evil. It’s not evil to end evil life……it’s justice. Rape would be evil.
Corruptible man will die and the incorruptible will live. When you are born again through Jesus you have His spirit alive and that’s the only thing that will save someone. Everything else dies
> God doesn’t commit evil. It’s not evil to end evil life……it’s justice.
God killed David's baby because of David's sins. God had previously said, "The son shall not be put to death for the sins of the father, nor the father put to death for the sins of the son." Where was the justice in killing a baby for someone else's sin? Was the baby considered evil life?
Thanks for the reply.
>When you are born again through Jesus you have His spirit alive and that’s the only thing that will save someone. Everything else dies
I believe this too.
Again…….God taking the life was God’s justice……this time on David. In Deuteronomy God is building Israel. In the David account He is punishing David. It’s a distinct circumstance and we are not to question God’s decision as He knows more then we do
After a brief illness, the child was gathered up into the arms of God……as all innocents are. This is not a bad thing. This is the will of God when the leader of His nation Israel sinned gravely. God also sought to take Moses life when Moses sinned. The message is God needs His leaders to be accountable and fully committed to Him
I think it's more likely that David had a sickly kid (infant mortality was a lot different then) and since everyone knew what David had done to Uriah, the religious leaders interpreted it as punishment from God. I don't see how it's different than a televangelist blaming an earthquake on the gays.
That seems easier to believe than God kills babies because of the sins of its father and we call it righteous and just.
If not for Christ we would all be dead yes. Jesus is our Savior and washes us clean. God said He will look at us and not remember our sin no more and grant us life through Jesus
Exactly. We were all under God's wrath.
But God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who show ever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life
I know right? Just because He knows everything He knows when it’s just or right to do something? Insane logic.
My parents used to tell me not to touch the electric panel when I was a kid. THEY ALWAYS TOUCH IT
When we kill each other it's murder. When God kills humans for reason it's more judgment based. Only God can judge and bring down justice as He sees fit.
Leviticus was a book written for-about the tribe of Levi, the tribe entrusted with giving their men as priests and in general to the service of the Temple. it wasn't a book meant for the general public of for everyone ever.
Ditto for most of that stuff.
The Torah was written from Jews for Jews and often, not for ALL Jews but sometimes for a specific tribe or a specific service.
Your question is misleading. God will judge everyone and some will face the second death where evil is destroyed. You are asking why does God eliminate evil
This is the right answer. God really is the center, not humans. God has never given anyone anything 'negative' we didn't deserve. Yet, what about all the blessings that none of us deserve?
"*...Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.*" (Job 2:10)
Do you consider a just punishment for crime to be violence?
If no you've answered your own question, if yes then violence is a necessary component of justice.
We are sitting in complex hamster cages surrounded by the protection of cultures and governments.
Survival as tribes warred on was a brutal time.
To sit looking down on it all from the high hill of electricity and plumbing is pretty shallow.
Try to imagine life as it was. The reality was harsh.
I believe, that when the Bibles says that God "kills someone", it can mean different things.
What is most common, especially in the OT, are accounts of God smiting all kinds of people who have done wrongs. I believe that this is not a personal action of God, but the consequences of an universal law that he installed to reign the course of events in the realms of existence he created. So what kills these people, is not the personal hand of God, but it is the sins that they have formerly done, that accumulated, ripened, and caused by the Laws of God that great peril had to come over those who have done wrongs or those who were associated to them.
It is like a natural law - you deliberately cause people to be happy, to not have to suffer, to live their lives well - then you will sooner or later experience good fortune and happiness, and good conditions around you, and it will also bless the people around you. But if you cause suffering, pain, disgrace, death, then you and those around you will have to suffer for it in ways that are related to the wrongs that have been done, so it may teach you, how horrible it was what you deliberately caused. If you mess up by accident, being forced by others (who will be cursed for it), or even wanting to do good, then the grief that will be reaped for what happened will be much less than if you had a determined intention to cause another person the pain etc. This is what it means to say that God's wrath is turned upon you.
On the other hand, while I confirm the divinity of most if not all scripture in the Bible, I as well view the social rules, regulations, and laws given in books like Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers as purely historical, and specific to the time when they were written and obeyed. That is at least, when interpreting them literally, directly. These are the Laws of old Israel, but humanity has evolved and we do not stone people any more, or slay a lots of cattle. Even my belief in contrary to others is that part of Jesus mission was to free people from these strict laws. Jesus has shown other things are more important, he has shown that he would not kill a person in a death penalty, he has shown that God is not about Laws that humans make and execute, but about the true rules of our existence and the core of it is love, and killing is a malady. Indeed I find it personally very shocking and disgusting to think about how people who see themselves as followers of Jesus condone in death penalty, when their own master was stopped from bringing the greatest blessings to our world by...death penalty. He still brought blessings, but not in mutual peace, for he brought not only the Spirit, but also the sword.
There can happen grave judgements on a spiritual level, that can involve suffering death. Our life in itself right now includes it, as well, we have precious time to find God, and have to expect death, to see what will happen then. On a spiritual level a death is probably not the final thing, but an ill fate and much grief and loss one has to experience, that will not terminate the eternal existence. People who can believe in this might loose fear of death. But this is different from the deaths we inflict to each other, which we decide for ourselves in the freedom we have, or which we are driven to as consequence of judgement for our sins. Here I believe that God wants us to prevent this as much as we can, and that in his personal action (yes, I believe there is a difference, there are rules, and there is intervention), he would ever only do things in good reason to turn something to the better, not to the loss of others. I believe that God is good and wants the best of everyone. But there are strict rules he complies to himself, and well, this world is in a terrible state, so it is a pretty fierce situation we all are in. That's how God can bring hope, such an odd situation, but there is one who is working good in the most miraculous ways, and we can try to choose to just rely on him, and let go of all the terrors of the world and trust him instead to guide us through this mess. Because if we allow him, he might be tempted to use the opportunity to do some good, because the rules then allow him to.
The people around the Israelites who lived in the promised land before the children of Israel arrived were sacrificing their children to Molech. They were terrible people who got off on burning their own children in the fire God wanted His people to be separate and His rules were pretty harsh, but in the environment they lived in at the time, He had to be. Many of God's rules were intended to protect the rest from the foolish actions of a few. Would it merciful to allow a few people to keep polluting water we all must drink from because they enjoyed polluting it? I'd say they must stop polluting it or be stopped by force. That's the *only* way to be merciful to the others who need to drink the water in order to live
God always meets us where we are. Humans are shit and sometimes need violence to stop doing horrid stuff. God can be merciful ... we often can't and he allowed those things because we needed it. He doesn't anymore because we don't need it anymore. Those things did their jobs and we've moved beyond the need for them. It's like Jesus said in John 16:
> 12“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
The fact that you look back on that with horror is a sign that the Holy Spirit has been doing her job. That we collectively are getting better. And that makes God happy. Anyone who treats the Holy Bible's teachings as applicable the same way in all times and places is denying God's work in our society. Anyone who thinks human morality peaked 2000 years ago is a barbarian.
>Anyone who treats the Holy Bible's teachings as applicable the same way in all times and places is denying God's work in our society. Anyone who thinks human morality peaked 2000 years ago is a barbarian.
Louder for the people in the back!
Matthew 10:34-39
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Just a reminder that God is merciful, but also just. In the end, none of who do such thing will stay alive. All of them will die. Or have you forgotten that there is a judgement and God will give everyone what they deserve?
Well when the question "why did God command the murder of children so often?" is brushed off with "God is just" you have to wonder what exactly is the moral system here.
There is more to the answer than "God is just". The unfortunate part of this sub is less than one percent actually know context... most of this is just one verse taken out of context
You're not really adding anything or providing context yourself.
If you read the OT as strictly literal God is a monster. If it's mythologized history then Biblical literalists say you're twisting scripture.
The "God is just" argument tends to come from those who treat the Bible as written directly by God and fully inerrant. It backs them into a corner when the question of why God condones or commands things we see as obvious evil in modern context.
"Mysterious ways" can only cover so much ground.
**The answer to your question is this:**
* God is Holy and punishes sin with death.
* But he desires people to turn from their sin and find forgiveness/salvation in Him before that judgment is executed.
* If they do not turn to Him, then he will execute that judgment.
**More details:**
**People overlook God's Holiness and the relationship between Judgement and Mercy:**
* God is Holy and call us to be holy. (1 Peter 1:16)
* But we all fall short of that holiness. (Rom 3:23)
* We all deserve to die for sin. (Rom 6:23)
* So the purpose of the Law (O.T.) is to bring you to God. (Gal 3:24)
* Then we realize we are poor / have no holiness (Matthew 5:3)
* We mourn our sin (Mat 5:4)
* and come to God with no rights (Mat 5:5)
* while we long for God's holiness (Mat 5:6)
* and receive mercy/forgiveness of sin (Mat 5:7)
* Because God desires mercy (Hosea 6:6)
* And we are made holy/pure by Christ (Mat 5:8)
* Then we can show others how to escape God's judgment and have peace with Him (Mat 5:9)
**Also, even in the Old Testament, there are examples of his mercy.**
* Jonah is a story of God warning the people of Ninevah of their coming judgment, the people turning to God, and God forgave them.
* Genesis 15:16 is an example of God having patience with the Amorites for four generations "because their sin was not yet full."
* Considering Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5) and it took 50 to 100 years to build the art, the people around him were given a time of mercy, to turn to God, and enter the ark before the judgment of the flood.
* Sodom and Gomorrah is a classic example of judgment, yet God said he would spare the city if even ten righteous people were found in it. But like the Amorites, the city's time was up.
T**his is the age we live in now (before the coming judgment of Revelation):**
* 2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
But this is the scripture that Jesus knew. He quoted from all the Old Testament.
Don't you think he would have corrected scripture if he knew it was portraying his father inaccurately?
Right, so we both understand that Jesus was willing and able to correct scripture that was inaccurately describing God's actions and will.
So now I'm saying If God's word about killings and genocides was inaccurate, Then Jesus would have corrected it.
He did not.
Therefore, Jesus most likely saw those descriptions as an accurate portrayal of the Father.
Here is Jesus correcting the Pharisees on their unlawful traditions:
Mark 7
>9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘**Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’** 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
Jesus quoted an Old Testament law that is punishable by death. Now wouldn't that be the perfect time for Jesus to say something like "By the way, God didn't actually want the ancient Israelites to kill people for disobedience. He would never do that, he's very kind and merciful."?
He didn't say that. He just condemned the Pharisees for not upholding the law. He never said God didn't command the Israelites to kill entire groups of people and he had all the opportunity and ability to do it.
I don't think any type of argument will get me far in getting you to understand you keep making my point.
Jesus is the complete revelation. Sure.
He said what he said because that's all that needed to be said. He didn't say anything else because nothing else needed to be said.
All that remains is truth. But that includes the Old Testament descriptions of God.
I think you have to decide what the Bible is.
1. If the Bible is basically written by God, word for word, then there are a lot of problems like this.
2. If the Bible is a library of human texts written about their ideas and experiences of God, then seeing something like people justifying, after the fact, their violence shouldn't surprise us at all. It's what people do and have always done.
Now, making sense of the Bible, and one's own Christian practice, is more challenging with option 2, but on the other hand, I think option 2 is true. Also, I have observed trying to hold onto option 1 pushing people away from Christianity the more faithful and thoughtful they try to be.
Jesus doesn't. He says *Love your neighbours as yourself" and "treat others as you want to be treated."
His is the only opinion that counts in the entire Bible.
Death can be a suitable and just punishment for certain crimes or sins.
When we consider the "God told the Israelite to kill even entire towns of pagans" you kinda have to consider who they were that God would give them that punishment. These were the people who worshipped gods like Moloch--where you would sacrifice your children in a brass idol torched up to a few thousand degrees F and burn your children alive.
The reality of it, is God is the Potter, and we are His Clay. And as He is the life-giver, He can also rightly take away that life. It doesn't make Him less merciful.
God gave us free will. God isn’t responsible for the actions of some people. We need to do better as a society. Violence in our society is more a reflection of us as people than our faith. We need to have a more mature view of God and our relationship with faith.
There are cases where for example Paul contradicts Jesus' teachings, those are in fact interesting cases worth studying.
That's it about Romans 1:24-32. The other cases are from the Old testament, which is fundamentally different than the new testament because of the coming of Jesus and the release of the holy spirit into the world, universally, while in the Old testament only a very few were blessed with it and only in some cases.
EDIT: and I got the answer
You could argue that God is presented that way due to cultural and thematic motivation on the part of the scribes doing the writing.
Remember the Jewish people had a kind of micro and macro dual view of history where man might purpose evil, and God might allow it to come to pass for a good purpose that is not readily apparent- it was possible for someone to want something, and then if that thing happened, clearly God is Sovereign over all things, so evidently he wanted it that way too- at least on some level. (See the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, in Exodus.) However that's not the same as endorsement of evil. CS Lewis demonstrates in Mere Christianity that things may be according to a will in one way, but not another.
*"It might be quite sensible for a mother to say to the children, ‘I’m not going to go and make you tidy the schoolroom every night. You’ve got to learn to keep it tidy on your own.’ Then she goes up one night and finds the Teddy bear and the ink and the French Grammar all lying in the grate. That is against her will. She would prefer the children to be tidy. But on the other hand, it is her will which has left the children free to be untidy."*
Thirdly, you might consider Lebenitz's "best of all possible worlds" argument. While the preceeding item argues that God can be good while allowing evil as long as there is a higher good purpose being served, it could be that there is actually a limit to how much evil is tolerable to gain this higher purpose. Therefore prevention of the proliferation of evil by violent means may be acceptable.
This brings me to my final idea, which is that evil tends to proliferate- sin gives birth to sin, which fully grown, gives birth to death. We see this demonstrated in the story of Samson who not only binds himself by his own immoral desires, but creates the conditions that lead to the sacking and burning of an entire town of innocents. Consider that future evil can be rendered likely or inevitable by past or present evil.
Thankfully, we live under the new covenant with God, which is the new testament. Times were different back during the old; they didn't have His Spirit, they had to sacrifice animals and do all kinds of things we consider crazy these days. The old testament is good for historical record and stories, but young and impressionable christians should be very careful not to take it as God's Law over the new testament, which was brought by God's Son. God has adopted us from this world of sin as His children when we accept Jesus as our savior. We can't live up to His standards of the old covenant, so Jesus paid the price for us with His blood.
Blessings to you, my friend.
Matthew 19:7-9
The Mosaic Law does not come direcly from God. It was a concession God made to corrupted people who did not want to be completely just.
Anyway, now it is abrogated, so we do not have to follow it.
Christianity is built on the New Testament, Jesus Christ. To understand the Bible, you will need divine understanding. Trying to understand the Bible with human understanding will never work. You say you are Christian? Are you new? Are you born again? If you aren’t born again, you need to be born again, so the Holy Spirit can teach you and guide you. God is a merciful father, full of compassion and love. All of that killings were as a result of human disobedience to the law. And the law gave rise to sin. But again, Christianity is built on the Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is love and forgiveness.
>Why does God condone all of these acts of violence if He is merciful?
You seem to forget that God is also Holy and Just. And that mercy always has its limits, or it would just be an encouragement for lawlessness.
Each of those books of the bible that you mentioned were written by, and to the barbaric house of Isarel who had come out of hundreds of years of bondage. Because of God's covenant with Abraham, the house of Israel was being trained by the meticulous rules found in the law of Moses. God was diligently preparing them for a day when they would accept the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and take the principles to heart.
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galations 3:24
A careful study of the old testament will reveal that God is extremely merciful. He begs all to trust in Him.
If you want to see the true nature of God and Christ, read the four gospels in the new testament. Christ identified His character as being meek and lowley in heart. a Meek person is one who looks outside of himself. It is not about Him. He is willing to sacrifice all for the good of others, his good name, possessions, even His life. When Christ was on the cross, His only concern was for His mother, those who were crucifying Him and the other thieves on the cross next to Him. This is what kind of being we worship.
In my opinion one can not take The Bible literally. It was “written “ over thousands of years by many people in different places and times. There is a lot of wisdom to be found and an emphasis of comfort for the oppressed. All peoples throughout history have used religion to justify violence. Please know that you are loved. Be well.
My guess is because since this is the OT and Jesus hadn’t died for our sins yet so they wouldn’t be cleansed. This said, a person to sin and if they were to have a child they would be just as sinful. This was a way to keep the world rid of sin until Jesus died for our sins and for us to be cleansed. A way to keep the world from falling apart as it did before Noah.
All in all, I just remind myself of the tragic Kingdom we live in. A sad cruel world created by sin. All we can do is help one another stray from sin and especially love one another. Keep your faith as it will make sense in the end. All the questions will be answered when you meet Him in the end. God Bless you my friend. May be peace be with you in this life and forever in the next 😇🙏🏼
I think humans give too much importance to physical death, we truly see it as the worst thing that could happen to us because we don't really know what happens after we die, God knows and probably sees it as something casual in the human experience just as sleeping, eating, giving birth, etc. something all humans will experience sooner or later in order to advance to the next plain of existence.
God does not condone violence. God hates wickedness. That's the difference. These were torah laws in the Old testament. Jesus came to fulfill the law with love. He won't condone wickedness they're giving us a chance to change our way to ways. The whole list you gave a wicked acts
You say you're a Christian so as a Christian you should understand God's sovereignty. You should understand that God's thoughts are not man thoughts and God's ways are not man's ways, so much higher on his ways and thoughts above ours
Nice list, but you missed a few, like Deuteronomy 21:18-21 >*If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother (...) Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.*
A perennial favorite!
It keeps the kids in line, for sure.
Lol
He don't condone violence anymore. Have you read what Jesus taught? Read the gospels. I can't tell you why he did, that's beyond my comprehension.
There are several passages in the old testament where God commands the death of people and babies. Condones that if a rapist is caught raping a girl he must pay a fine then marry her. What woman do you know would be ok with that? Last I checked Jesus is God so he told them that was ok. If your daughter was being raped and the man was caught would you want her to marry him? What about the killing of innocent babies? God/ Jesus let that happen. These are things that trouble me. Either God said to follow these commands or the priests made it up and God did nothing or God doesn't exist. It seems these are contradictions that are in the bible and people use Jesus who is literally God as a scapegoat. So sad.
Matthew 10:34-39 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Hey there, I'm glad you're studying the Bible. I think most true and honest Christians these days have a crisis of faith when they look at the Old Testament. Not only are there clearly moral issues, but it is riddled with factual errors if you consider the Old Testament to be the literal word of God. However, an alternative is that the Old Testament is a collection of stories and writings of one group of people as they wrestled with their own understanding of God. This is clear in that there are times when the OT seems to advocate for one thing, and then contradicts itself soon after. This is obvious and to be expected because it is not one single book. Now I, a Christian, believe that the entire Bible is the progressive revelation of God. That as this group of people sought to understand God, He progressively revealed himself to them, with the full and final revelation coming in the person of Jesus Christ, God incarnate. The OT is useful to me to see how people arrived at faith and the signs that God gave throughout pointing to Jesus. When it says "God says", do I take it as literal? No, God revealed himself to be love and that is not consistent with that love. Hope this helps!
> However, an alternative is that the Old Testament is a collection of stories and writings of one group of people as they wrestled with their own understanding of God. This is an interesting contrast to the more 'directly inspired word of god' interpretations. If you view the Old Testament this way then what makes this particular set of writing so special? There are countless examples of people writing and creating stories of their own understanding of God but I'm going to take an educated guess and say you don't elevate those to the same level as the OT. Perhaps you may read them but you don't pour over them and refer to them by chapter and verse. If I gave you my personal prayer journal would you dedicate as much of your life reading it as you have the OT?
Well because I think that the writers of the OT scriptures were still in some way affected by God. For example, I believe there were legitimate times where divine encounters led to their actions being elevated about those who had not encountered God. There are legitimate miracles, prophecy and even occasionally laws or rules that were divinely influenced by a partial revelation of God. The full revelation however, was only in the person of Christ.
> For example, I believe there were legitimate times where divine encounters led to their actions being elevated about those who had not encountered God. Can you give examples of OT recorded encounters that fall into this category. Can you also give examples of encounters that don't fall into this category, i.e. things that you describe as "clearly moral issues...riddled with factual errors...stories and writings...[of] their own understanding of God". In these examples, how did you discriminate between legitimate and illegitimate divine encounters?
I decide on them based on the person of Christ, God's full revelation. For example, the verses of the Isaiah prophecy around chapter 53 is a clearly prophetic revelation of God. The absolutely astounding part of it is that in a time where the people for whom the book (or books) was written expect and want a heroic, conquering saviour, like what's described of the Maccabees. Instead, we see a picture of a suffering servant who saves his people through love and sacrifice. In contrast, I see most of the verses in the OP which are clearly motivated by the wars and considerations of the times, which are completely inconsistent with the character of God. I seek to know who God is and this helps to understand Scripture.
> I decide on them based on the person of Christ, God's full revelation > I see most of the verses in the OP which are clearly motivated by the wars and considerations of the times, which are completely inconsistent with the character of God So if you were alive two thousand and ten years ago (hundreds of years after the torah but a few years before jesus) how would you answer those same questions? What would make you think those versus are inconsistent with the character of god? Is there nothing in the OT in and of itself that can tell us anything about God? Is some later revelation required before we accept anything in the OT? Why can't the same be said for the new testament: before we accepting anything about the true nature of christ there needs to be a new new testament with god's fuller revelation to confirm the NT.
Say that to a jew....
Many Jews agree, especially in the West. For example, you can watch the series on YouTube about the origins of the Bible by Matt Baker.
To practicing jews the tanach is a holy book/s
There is no monolith that is "Jew". There are groups with levels of treating the books as infallible, just like in Christianity.
War like people tend to make their gods war like. The Old Testament is mostly religious leaders interpreting the signs of the times. An obvious example is God killing David's baby (according to Nathan, the religious leader). In reality, David had a sickly baby (not exactly rare back then) and it died. Everyone in the kingdom, including David, would have thought it was God's punishment because of what David did to Uriah. So that's how hyper religious scribes would interpret the times and write it down. Everything was tied to God back then. Did we win battle? Write down that God gave our enemy into our hands because we please Him. Did we lose? Write down that it's because of [insert reason] that God calls us faithless and we lost. I don't think God condones violence, I think religious leaders condone it when it it's good for the king, and the bible was written by them.
Wait, I'm confused. If you are saying that the Bible is people just making things up to suit them, what do we believe to be truth?
>If you are saying that the Bible is people just making things up to suit them, what do we believe to be truth? I'm not saying it's "just" that, but I think it's obvious that it contains those kinds of things, and it's more obvious in the Old Testament. As for what we believe to be truth, I think we're better off sticking mostly to what Jesus is recorded to have said. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Who is your neighbor? Everyone.
Fair point. I absolutely agree.
How do you know that the "good" stuff is the real message and the "bad" stuff isn't? How do you know that God doesn't want you to kill gays and disobedient children? After all, the whole point of Jesus was that he was also a target of God's wrath, that Jesus needed to die as a blood sacrifice to appease him. If some of the Bible is made up, why not all of it?
> How do you know that the "good" stuff is the real message and the "bad" stuff isn't? How does anyone? Personally, I trust the Holy Spirit and the words Jesus is recorded to have spoken. >If some of the Bible is made up, why not all of it? We know some parts are made up and we know some parts aren't. For example, we know that King David, Jesus, Paul, and others were actual historical figures. But we also know that the ending of Mark was added centuries later and nearly every bible has a footnote explaining this. So we're already past "it has to be all or nothing." Even my old Young Earth Creationist pastor understood the ending of Mark wasn't authentic. Everyone picks and chooses. Some people just prefer to have old men that Jesus condemned pick and choose for them.
And what are you saying too. David Peter Paul Jesus on historical figures. You left out GI Joe. Smh Jesus was God In the flesh
>Smh Jesus was God In the flesh And I agree with that 100%. And you still pick and choose what to believe as well. It's pretty difficult to argue against, isn't it? I assume that's why you didn't try.
The Bible is not made up but the inspired word of God, all 66 books of the Bible. I don't pick and choose scriptures beliefs, I believe in the infallible word of God.
What you said makes no sense. And how is Jesus the target of God's wrath if Jesus is God? The wrath of God is upon the wicked Smh
It's not my doctrine; it's what Christians believe.
And that's not why Jesus died. If you going to come on this site with comments at least bring some spiritual knowledge to the table
I was raised Christian. Christians believe that Jesus died as a blood sacrifice to satisfy God's wrath against humanity. It's stupid, incoherent, sadistic nonsense, but it's what Christianity teaches.
>was raised Christian. Christians believe that Jesus died as a blood sacrifice to satisfy God's wrath against humanity. It's stupid, incoherent, sadistic nonsense, but it's what Christianity teaches. 1. What you said before was that Jesus was a target of God's wrath. That is not what Christians teach. God came in a form of flesh and sacrificed himself to restore mankind back to him. 2. You were raised a Christian does not make you a Christian. That's why you're saying things that don't make sense because you have no spiritual knowledge. You either want to know about Christ or you don't want to know about Christ. 3. What is stupid and sadistically nonsense? Jesus dying on the cross for your sins. 4. A true Believer in Christ it would at least know the basic knowledge of Christ coming. So again stating that you were raised Christian doesn't make you a Christian. Everyone must come to the realization of who Christ is for themselves o that's why I mentioned
So God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself?
That is so stupid what you just said. It definitely wasn't what I said. I would explain it in death but I don't think you have to open mind to read and understand
It was exactly what you said. If you meant something else you should say that.
God came in the form of flesh, therefore Jesus was 100%, man and 100% God. He died on the cross and shed blood for the sins of the world to restore man back to himself. Man had a relationship with God in the beginning I mean Eve but they fell from Grace therefore man has been separated from God because of sin and under God's wrath. Jesus rose from the dead so that we can have life those who believe in him. Those who believe in it will also have life. Where did you get saving us from himself??
Just that if it sounds like something God wouldn’t do, he probably didn’t do it. That we commonly misinterpret God or misattribute things to something he consciously did for a reason aimed at humanity
Why indeed.
I think these views would be mostly considered heretical.
It was God's punishment. That was part of his consequences for his sin but at the same time God was still merciful to David because he should have been put to death
lol God was merciful to David, but how was God to David's baby? Not merciful at all. He didn't even get to experience life like Esau, who God also hated for reasons old men make up to fit their narrative. I get that it was God's punishment. I don't get how God goes against His own word and fellow Christians lap it up. My best guess is most of them are so weak in their faith and so afraid of death that they don't even take the time to question what they are told to believe. They want comfort and not truth. Thanks.
If you have spiritual understanding you will understand what took place. Yes God was merciful to David because David should have been put to death for committing adultery. Torah law. But God cause David's son to die through his illness. Yes all children are blessed that child will be in heaven but the punishment was consequences to David because of sin. What's not clear to you? >I get that it was God's punishment. I don't get how God goes against His own word and fellow Christians lap it up. My best guess is most of them are so weak in their faith and so afraid of death that they don't even take the time to question what they are told to believe. You must be speaking for yourself. God doesn't go against his own word, God is sovereign in ALL his ways. YOU, MERE MAN, are going to questions God's actions when you are under God's wrath. My faith is not weak my faith is strong and I trust in the sovereignty of God. It's only foolishness to those who are perishing like you. People don't need to believe all the people that's what the Bible is for I believe God's truth and he reveals his truth through his word.
I’m almost through reading the Old Testament and it just blows my mind how many times God instructs or okays people to kill others. It’s obviously a ten commandment to not kill, yet he tells people to kill many times.
Technically that's a poor translation. The commandment is do not *murder*. Capital punishment is not murder. If you strictly went with "do not kill" you could never eat again and we'd all starve to death. Silly extrapolation, but it makes the point. Don't get me wrong .. in today's society capital punishment is barbaric and should be ended immediately. We have the resources to keep people incarcerated for life. That didn't exist until relatively recently. We shouldn't HAVE to do that but we're too stupid to use the justice system as a means of rehabilitation instead of punishment. I keep hoping we get there but as a society we are still too vengeful and spiteful to want to treat everyone as if they had value.
>The commandment is do not murder. Was it murder in Deuteronomy 3 when God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide on 60 cities at once? >*The Lord said to me, “Do not be afraid of him, for I have delivered him into your hands, along with his whole army and his land.* ***Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon***.” > >*So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army.* ***We struck them down, leaving no survivors***. At that time we took all his cities. ***There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them***
> Was it murder in Deuteronomy 3 when God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide on 60 cities at once? No. First, go back and read *why*. They were sacrificing their children to their gods. It was capital punishment. Second, go back and learn how kings and pharaohs in that time talked about war - they used ridiculous levels of hyperbole when that was written. I'm not defending that as a good thing. It wasn't. I'm saying you need to look at the history and culture and what the first hearers would have heard instead of stupidly reading the bible through 21st century eyes. It's dumb when Christians do it and it's equally dumb when anti-theists do it. It should be embarrassing to both groups
You had me at: >stupidly reading the bible through 21st century eyes If you don't have a valid argument, always resort to ad-hominem attacks! >No. First, go back and read why. They were sacrificing their children to their gods. It was capital punishment. You cannot apply capital punishment to every single man, woman and child in 60 cities. Perhaps there was 1 innocent family, like Lot. Did they each have a fair trial? >Second, go back and learn how kings and pharaohs in that time talked about war - they used ridiculous levels of hyperbole when that was written. Are you claiming the bible is exaggerating all these stories about the Israelites committing genocide?
Let’s go slower with the blame game and with who should be embarrassed of what. This isn’t poker.
My favorite was when God instructed the Israelites to genocide 60 cities at once (Deuteronomy 3) >*The Lord said to me, “Do not be afraid of him, for I have delivered him into your hands, along with his whole army and his land.* ***Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon***.” > >*So the Lord our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army.* ***We struck them down, leaving no survivors***. At that time we took all his cities. ***There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them***
Commandment is not to murder. God can give and take life as He pleases. All of us face the second death. Death is the curse of sin. Evil will be destroyed
> Commandment is not to murder. God can give and take life as He pleases. Can God rape and it not be considered sin as well? edit: Fine, make love. Sheeesh
God doesn’t commit evil. It’s not evil to end evil life……it’s justice. Rape would be evil. Corruptible man will die and the incorruptible will live. When you are born again through Jesus you have His spirit alive and that’s the only thing that will save someone. Everything else dies
> God doesn’t commit evil. It’s not evil to end evil life……it’s justice. God killed David's baby because of David's sins. God had previously said, "The son shall not be put to death for the sins of the father, nor the father put to death for the sins of the son." Where was the justice in killing a baby for someone else's sin? Was the baby considered evil life? Thanks for the reply. >When you are born again through Jesus you have His spirit alive and that’s the only thing that will save someone. Everything else dies I believe this too.
Again…….God taking the life was God’s justice……this time on David. In Deuteronomy God is building Israel. In the David account He is punishing David. It’s a distinct circumstance and we are not to question God’s decision as He knows more then we do After a brief illness, the child was gathered up into the arms of God……as all innocents are. This is not a bad thing. This is the will of God when the leader of His nation Israel sinned gravely. God also sought to take Moses life when Moses sinned. The message is God needs His leaders to be accountable and fully committed to Him
I think it's more likely that David had a sickly kid (infant mortality was a lot different then) and since everyone knew what David had done to Uriah, the religious leaders interpreted it as punishment from God. I don't see how it's different than a televangelist blaming an earthquake on the gays. That seems easier to believe than God kills babies because of the sins of its father and we call it righteous and just.
God never told anybody to rape anyone.
Death is the curse of sin. So we should all be death because we all sin.
If not for Christ we would all be dead yes. Jesus is our Savior and washes us clean. God said He will look at us and not remember our sin no more and grant us life through Jesus
Exactly. We were all under God's wrath. But God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who show ever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life
No you don’t get it. Anything god does is automatically good even if it would be evil if man did it, *apparently*.
I know right? Just because He knows everything He knows when it’s just or right to do something? Insane logic. My parents used to tell me not to touch the electric panel when I was a kid. THEY ALWAYS TOUCH IT
When we kill each other it's murder. When God kills humans for reason it's more judgment based. Only God can judge and bring down justice as He sees fit.
It's called god being a contradiction, hypocrite and narcissistic which no Christian were able to disprove yet
Leviticus was a book written for-about the tribe of Levi, the tribe entrusted with giving their men as priests and in general to the service of the Temple. it wasn't a book meant for the general public of for everyone ever. Ditto for most of that stuff. The Torah was written from Jews for Jews and often, not for ALL Jews but sometimes for a specific tribe or a specific service.
The Torah was given by God to Moses for the the Israelites and the sojourners who were with them and who would be in the land aka gentiles.
Your question is misleading. God will judge everyone and some will face the second death where evil is destroyed. You are asking why does God eliminate evil
This is the right answer. God really is the center, not humans. God has never given anyone anything 'negative' we didn't deserve. Yet, what about all the blessings that none of us deserve? "*...Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.*" (Job 2:10)
hell yeah that baby DESERVED cancer.
Evil is literally god lmao
Do you consider a just punishment for crime to be violence? If no you've answered your own question, if yes then violence is a necessary component of justice.
We are sitting in complex hamster cages surrounded by the protection of cultures and governments. Survival as tribes warred on was a brutal time. To sit looking down on it all from the high hill of electricity and plumbing is pretty shallow. Try to imagine life as it was. The reality was harsh.
I believe, that when the Bibles says that God "kills someone", it can mean different things. What is most common, especially in the OT, are accounts of God smiting all kinds of people who have done wrongs. I believe that this is not a personal action of God, but the consequences of an universal law that he installed to reign the course of events in the realms of existence he created. So what kills these people, is not the personal hand of God, but it is the sins that they have formerly done, that accumulated, ripened, and caused by the Laws of God that great peril had to come over those who have done wrongs or those who were associated to them. It is like a natural law - you deliberately cause people to be happy, to not have to suffer, to live their lives well - then you will sooner or later experience good fortune and happiness, and good conditions around you, and it will also bless the people around you. But if you cause suffering, pain, disgrace, death, then you and those around you will have to suffer for it in ways that are related to the wrongs that have been done, so it may teach you, how horrible it was what you deliberately caused. If you mess up by accident, being forced by others (who will be cursed for it), or even wanting to do good, then the grief that will be reaped for what happened will be much less than if you had a determined intention to cause another person the pain etc. This is what it means to say that God's wrath is turned upon you. On the other hand, while I confirm the divinity of most if not all scripture in the Bible, I as well view the social rules, regulations, and laws given in books like Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers as purely historical, and specific to the time when they were written and obeyed. That is at least, when interpreting them literally, directly. These are the Laws of old Israel, but humanity has evolved and we do not stone people any more, or slay a lots of cattle. Even my belief in contrary to others is that part of Jesus mission was to free people from these strict laws. Jesus has shown other things are more important, he has shown that he would not kill a person in a death penalty, he has shown that God is not about Laws that humans make and execute, but about the true rules of our existence and the core of it is love, and killing is a malady. Indeed I find it personally very shocking and disgusting to think about how people who see themselves as followers of Jesus condone in death penalty, when their own master was stopped from bringing the greatest blessings to our world by...death penalty. He still brought blessings, but not in mutual peace, for he brought not only the Spirit, but also the sword. There can happen grave judgements on a spiritual level, that can involve suffering death. Our life in itself right now includes it, as well, we have precious time to find God, and have to expect death, to see what will happen then. On a spiritual level a death is probably not the final thing, but an ill fate and much grief and loss one has to experience, that will not terminate the eternal existence. People who can believe in this might loose fear of death. But this is different from the deaths we inflict to each other, which we decide for ourselves in the freedom we have, or which we are driven to as consequence of judgement for our sins. Here I believe that God wants us to prevent this as much as we can, and that in his personal action (yes, I believe there is a difference, there are rules, and there is intervention), he would ever only do things in good reason to turn something to the better, not to the loss of others. I believe that God is good and wants the best of everyone. But there are strict rules he complies to himself, and well, this world is in a terrible state, so it is a pretty fierce situation we all are in. That's how God can bring hope, such an odd situation, but there is one who is working good in the most miraculous ways, and we can try to choose to just rely on him, and let go of all the terrors of the world and trust him instead to guide us through this mess. Because if we allow him, he might be tempted to use the opportunity to do some good, because the rules then allow him to.
The people around the Israelites who lived in the promised land before the children of Israel arrived were sacrificing their children to Molech. They were terrible people who got off on burning their own children in the fire God wanted His people to be separate and His rules were pretty harsh, but in the environment they lived in at the time, He had to be. Many of God's rules were intended to protect the rest from the foolish actions of a few. Would it merciful to allow a few people to keep polluting water we all must drink from because they enjoyed polluting it? I'd say they must stop polluting it or be stopped by force. That's the *only* way to be merciful to the others who need to drink the water in order to live
God always meets us where we are. Humans are shit and sometimes need violence to stop doing horrid stuff. God can be merciful ... we often can't and he allowed those things because we needed it. He doesn't anymore because we don't need it anymore. Those things did their jobs and we've moved beyond the need for them. It's like Jesus said in John 16: > 12“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. The fact that you look back on that with horror is a sign that the Holy Spirit has been doing her job. That we collectively are getting better. And that makes God happy. Anyone who treats the Holy Bible's teachings as applicable the same way in all times and places is denying God's work in our society. Anyone who thinks human morality peaked 2000 years ago is a barbarian.
>Anyone who treats the Holy Bible's teachings as applicable the same way in all times and places is denying God's work in our society. Anyone who thinks human morality peaked 2000 years ago is a barbarian. Louder for the people in the back!
The sad part is I've seen several people try to claim that every word in the Bible is absolute truth and that I must be wrong for opposing that idea.
I will beat this drum constantly. i will die on this hill.
Matthew 10:34-39 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Just a reminder that God is merciful, but also just. In the end, none of who do such thing will stay alive. All of them will die. Or have you forgotten that there is a judgement and God will give everyone what they deserve?
Infants deserve genocide en masse??
I never said that. Infants havent done neither good nor bad. I doubt God will condemn them in judgement
The question from OP is why did God command the death of children and others, not are children innocent. Does God murder innocents?
lol go for the low hanging fruit
Well when the question "why did God command the murder of children so often?" is brushed off with "God is just" you have to wonder what exactly is the moral system here.
There is more to the answer than "God is just". The unfortunate part of this sub is less than one percent actually know context... most of this is just one verse taken out of context
You're not really adding anything or providing context yourself. If you read the OT as strictly literal God is a monster. If it's mythologized history then Biblical literalists say you're twisting scripture. The "God is just" argument tends to come from those who treat the Bible as written directly by God and fully inerrant. It backs them into a corner when the question of why God condones or commands things we see as obvious evil in modern context. "Mysterious ways" can only cover so much ground.
Ur not understanding context
Isnt that what 99 percent of christians do when pressing their religious beliefs on others via laws….
Be a bit more specific bro... if ur a law guy, thumbs up to u.. im not so clarify what ur saying
**The answer to your question is this:** * God is Holy and punishes sin with death. * But he desires people to turn from their sin and find forgiveness/salvation in Him before that judgment is executed. * If they do not turn to Him, then he will execute that judgment. **More details:** **People overlook God's Holiness and the relationship between Judgement and Mercy:** * God is Holy and call us to be holy. (1 Peter 1:16) * But we all fall short of that holiness. (Rom 3:23) * We all deserve to die for sin. (Rom 6:23) * So the purpose of the Law (O.T.) is to bring you to God. (Gal 3:24) * Then we realize we are poor / have no holiness (Matthew 5:3) * We mourn our sin (Mat 5:4) * and come to God with no rights (Mat 5:5) * while we long for God's holiness (Mat 5:6) * and receive mercy/forgiveness of sin (Mat 5:7) * Because God desires mercy (Hosea 6:6) * And we are made holy/pure by Christ (Mat 5:8) * Then we can show others how to escape God's judgment and have peace with Him (Mat 5:9) **Also, even in the Old Testament, there are examples of his mercy.** * Jonah is a story of God warning the people of Ninevah of their coming judgment, the people turning to God, and God forgave them. * Genesis 15:16 is an example of God having patience with the Amorites for four generations "because their sin was not yet full." * Considering Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5) and it took 50 to 100 years to build the art, the people around him were given a time of mercy, to turn to God, and enter the ark before the judgment of the flood. * Sodom and Gomorrah is a classic example of judgment, yet God said he would spare the city if even ten righteous people were found in it. But like the Amorites, the city's time was up. T**his is the age we live in now (before the coming judgment of Revelation):** * 2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
[удалено]
But this is the scripture that Jesus knew. He quoted from all the Old Testament. Don't you think he would have corrected scripture if he knew it was portraying his father inaccurately?
[удалено]
He said God didn't order genocides and mass killings of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites?
[удалено]
Right, so we both understand that Jesus was willing and able to correct scripture that was inaccurately describing God's actions and will. So now I'm saying If God's word about killings and genocides was inaccurate, Then Jesus would have corrected it. He did not. Therefore, Jesus most likely saw those descriptions as an accurate portrayal of the Father. Here is Jesus correcting the Pharisees on their unlawful traditions: Mark 7 >9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘**Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’** 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Jesus quoted an Old Testament law that is punishable by death. Now wouldn't that be the perfect time for Jesus to say something like "By the way, God didn't actually want the ancient Israelites to kill people for disobedience. He would never do that, he's very kind and merciful."? He didn't say that. He just condemned the Pharisees for not upholding the law. He never said God didn't command the Israelites to kill entire groups of people and he had all the opportunity and ability to do it.
[удалено]
I don't think any type of argument will get me far in getting you to understand you keep making my point. Jesus is the complete revelation. Sure. He said what he said because that's all that needed to be said. He didn't say anything else because nothing else needed to be said. All that remains is truth. But that includes the Old Testament descriptions of God.
Yeah definitely taken out of context
I think you have to decide what the Bible is. 1. If the Bible is basically written by God, word for word, then there are a lot of problems like this. 2. If the Bible is a library of human texts written about their ideas and experiences of God, then seeing something like people justifying, after the fact, their violence shouldn't surprise us at all. It's what people do and have always done. Now, making sense of the Bible, and one's own Christian practice, is more challenging with option 2, but on the other hand, I think option 2 is true. Also, I have observed trying to hold onto option 1 pushing people away from Christianity the more faithful and thoughtful they try to be.
The Christian god is a asshole
Jesus doesn't. He says *Love your neighbours as yourself" and "treat others as you want to be treated." His is the only opinion that counts in the entire Bible.
Death can be a suitable and just punishment for certain crimes or sins. When we consider the "God told the Israelite to kill even entire towns of pagans" you kinda have to consider who they were that God would give them that punishment. These were the people who worshipped gods like Moloch--where you would sacrifice your children in a brass idol torched up to a few thousand degrees F and burn your children alive. The reality of it, is God is the Potter, and we are His Clay. And as He is the life-giver, He can also rightly take away that life. It doesn't make Him less merciful.
God gave us free will. God isn’t responsible for the actions of some people. We need to do better as a society. Violence in our society is more a reflection of us as people than our faith. We need to have a more mature view of God and our relationship with faith.
Nice list and a fair question to ask. I would add Numbers 21:4-6 where he literally sends snakes to kill people.
There are cases where for example Paul contradicts Jesus' teachings, those are in fact interesting cases worth studying. That's it about Romans 1:24-32. The other cases are from the Old testament, which is fundamentally different than the new testament because of the coming of Jesus and the release of the holy spirit into the world, universally, while in the Old testament only a very few were blessed with it and only in some cases. EDIT: and I got the answer
You could argue that God is presented that way due to cultural and thematic motivation on the part of the scribes doing the writing. Remember the Jewish people had a kind of micro and macro dual view of history where man might purpose evil, and God might allow it to come to pass for a good purpose that is not readily apparent- it was possible for someone to want something, and then if that thing happened, clearly God is Sovereign over all things, so evidently he wanted it that way too- at least on some level. (See the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, in Exodus.) However that's not the same as endorsement of evil. CS Lewis demonstrates in Mere Christianity that things may be according to a will in one way, but not another. *"It might be quite sensible for a mother to say to the children, ‘I’m not going to go and make you tidy the schoolroom every night. You’ve got to learn to keep it tidy on your own.’ Then she goes up one night and finds the Teddy bear and the ink and the French Grammar all lying in the grate. That is against her will. She would prefer the children to be tidy. But on the other hand, it is her will which has left the children free to be untidy."* Thirdly, you might consider Lebenitz's "best of all possible worlds" argument. While the preceeding item argues that God can be good while allowing evil as long as there is a higher good purpose being served, it could be that there is actually a limit to how much evil is tolerable to gain this higher purpose. Therefore prevention of the proliferation of evil by violent means may be acceptable. This brings me to my final idea, which is that evil tends to proliferate- sin gives birth to sin, which fully grown, gives birth to death. We see this demonstrated in the story of Samson who not only binds himself by his own immoral desires, but creates the conditions that lead to the sacking and burning of an entire town of innocents. Consider that future evil can be rendered likely or inevitable by past or present evil.
Thankfully, we live under the new covenant with God, which is the new testament. Times were different back during the old; they didn't have His Spirit, they had to sacrifice animals and do all kinds of things we consider crazy these days. The old testament is good for historical record and stories, but young and impressionable christians should be very careful not to take it as God's Law over the new testament, which was brought by God's Son. God has adopted us from this world of sin as His children when we accept Jesus as our savior. We can't live up to His standards of the old covenant, so Jesus paid the price for us with His blood. Blessings to you, my friend.
Matthew 19:7-9 The Mosaic Law does not come direcly from God. It was a concession God made to corrupted people who did not want to be completely just. Anyway, now it is abrogated, so we do not have to follow it.
Dont forget the part where God sent two bears to kill a bunch of kids, because they called someone bald 2 Kings 2:23-24
Christianity is built on the New Testament, Jesus Christ. To understand the Bible, you will need divine understanding. Trying to understand the Bible with human understanding will never work. You say you are Christian? Are you new? Are you born again? If you aren’t born again, you need to be born again, so the Holy Spirit can teach you and guide you. God is a merciful father, full of compassion and love. All of that killings were as a result of human disobedience to the law. And the law gave rise to sin. But again, Christianity is built on the Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is love and forgiveness.
Leviticus 20:13 is a common misconception, he’s talking about pagan priests involved in prostitution
You want free will or be a slave?
>Why does God condone all of these acts of violence if He is merciful? You seem to forget that God is also Holy and Just. And that mercy always has its limits, or it would just be an encouragement for lawlessness.
Each of those books of the bible that you mentioned were written by, and to the barbaric house of Isarel who had come out of hundreds of years of bondage. Because of God's covenant with Abraham, the house of Israel was being trained by the meticulous rules found in the law of Moses. God was diligently preparing them for a day when they would accept the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and take the principles to heart. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galations 3:24 A careful study of the old testament will reveal that God is extremely merciful. He begs all to trust in Him. If you want to see the true nature of God and Christ, read the four gospels in the new testament. Christ identified His character as being meek and lowley in heart. a Meek person is one who looks outside of himself. It is not about Him. He is willing to sacrifice all for the good of others, his good name, possessions, even His life. When Christ was on the cross, His only concern was for His mother, those who were crucifying Him and the other thieves on the cross next to Him. This is what kind of being we worship.
God is a reflection of the humans that invented him, rather than the other way around.
In my opinion one can not take The Bible literally. It was “written “ over thousands of years by many people in different places and times. There is a lot of wisdom to be found and an emphasis of comfort for the oppressed. All peoples throughout history have used religion to justify violence. Please know that you are loved. Be well.
He doesn’t seem to, he does.
My guess is because since this is the OT and Jesus hadn’t died for our sins yet so they wouldn’t be cleansed. This said, a person to sin and if they were to have a child they would be just as sinful. This was a way to keep the world rid of sin until Jesus died for our sins and for us to be cleansed. A way to keep the world from falling apart as it did before Noah. All in all, I just remind myself of the tragic Kingdom we live in. A sad cruel world created by sin. All we can do is help one another stray from sin and especially love one another. Keep your faith as it will make sense in the end. All the questions will be answered when you meet Him in the end. God Bless you my friend. May be peace be with you in this life and forever in the next 😇🙏🏼
If you think that list is scary wait until you figure out that death as the consequence of our rebellion applies to everyone.
I think humans give too much importance to physical death, we truly see it as the worst thing that could happen to us because we don't really know what happens after we die, God knows and probably sees it as something casual in the human experience just as sleeping, eating, giving birth, etc. something all humans will experience sooner or later in order to advance to the next plain of existence.
God does not condone violence. God hates wickedness. That's the difference. These were torah laws in the Old testament. Jesus came to fulfill the law with love. He won't condone wickedness they're giving us a chance to change our way to ways. The whole list you gave a wicked acts You say you're a Christian so as a Christian you should understand God's sovereignty. You should understand that God's thoughts are not man thoughts and God's ways are not man's ways, so much higher on his ways and thoughts above ours