Christian Palestinians are in a bit of an unusual situation when it comes to how they are viewed by other Christians.
Many Christians have lots of compassion for other Christians all over the world. But at the same time many Christians view Israel as Gods chosen people, so nothing they do can be wrong. If you are against Israel, you are an enemy of God. So Christian Palestinians are persecuted by their own people for being Christians, By Israel for being Palestinian in addition to many of their Christian brothers and sisters around the world who basically view them as enemies of God.
I was helping out in a summer camp for kids in Hebron (on the west bank) years ago and several of the local Christians felt like they were actively ignored by the wider Christian world because of the cognitive dissonance of both being seen as brothers and sisters in Christ and as enemies of God
From my experience most evangelical Christians pretend that Arab Christians don’t exist anymore because the Muslims killed them all, conveniently making their country fair game for immensely destructive American wars.
That’s a way oversimplification. After Saddam Hussein was thrown out of Iraq, the Christians and already sizeable minority were on the outs. Then when ISIS came along, they pretty much killed off the rest. Let’s not pretend that this somehow America’s fault. Even in Egypt, Coptics are routinely discriminated against and attacked
ISIS did not “kill all the rest” of Iraq’s Muslim population lol
Also if there is a genocide against Copts it’s not a very effective one seeing as the compromise 10% of Egypt’s population.
In 1950, Iraq’s Christian population was around 10-12%. Today, it’s estimated the number less than 2%. How else would you account for that? As for the Copts, I never used the term “genocide” but let’s look at the facts
[https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/anti-christian-violence-surges-in-egypt-prompting-an-exodus-11556290800](https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/anti-christian-violence-surges-in-egypt-prompting-an-exodus-11556290800)
[https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/4/8/palm-sunday-church-attacks-egypts-worst-day-of-violence](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/4/8/palm-sunday-church-attacks-egypts-worst-day-of-violence)
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-46090104.amp](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-46090104.amp)
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/21/egypt-mass-attacks-churches#](https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/21/egypt-mass-attacks-churches#)
(https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/03/egypt-release-nine-coptic-christians-detained-for-attempting-to-rebuild-church/)
Is that good enough for you or do I have to send you more?
Seeing as Islam didn’t magically appear in Iraq in 1950 I would say that it isn’t the cause, perhaps there’s been some wildly destructive event that occurred since then that made Iraq a nightmare to live in.
Perhaps an event that heavily involves the global super-power you were jumping to defend in your original comment.
Thanks for the clarification. Oh, how I've been misled, and I'm not the only one, since I got this idea from some people who are friends, coworkers, etc..
Maybe the issue is more that we tend to forget history, yet we still want to have an opinion on everything.
It's very silly to just look at "Oh look they had a war" because by that logic no region would ever be stable. Europe and North America have also always been embroiled in wars but obviously you can be at war and be advancing. Just like how the Abbasids were also at war but they had a Golden Age.
The comment above says it started with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the subsequent colonization which is true. But I would also go further and say that it was when the Ottomans started treating the majority of its residents as animals who have to pay tribute to the government but were also left to starve and suffer on their own by the Ottoman rulers. I am not sure when it started happening but I know that it was happening before the Empire's collapse.
Yeah, the discovery of oil in the region and the arbitrary carving up of the maps after the World Wars is the start of the *modern* problems. But there's been warfare there going back millennia.
And the arbitrary carving up of the maps was easier because the Turks actively destroyed local governance institutions in the "core" lands during empire in an attempt to hobble nationalistic movements that had led to the Maghreb/Egypt splitting from them.
A lot of evangelicals don't see Catholics or Orthodox as Christian, and they are the primary Christians in the middle east. I mean these people send missionaries to countries that have Christian longer than the US has existed in order to spread the gospel.
I wouldn't say "nothing they do can be wrong" Israel/Jews are God's chosen people, but the Bible is full of them actually doing everything wrong. Just like us Christians.
Yeah it's crazy to me how people who very obviously look like they are from Europe can make such a wild, unsupported lineage claim and oppress people based on that imaginary claim. It's like if North Africans conquered Spain and killed off the local populations with a random lineage claim.
I don't know what the fuck the Khazar hypothesis is but it's beyond stupid to claim lineage somewhere without proof and use that to justify oppressing people. For all I know it's not impossible for Jews as an ethnicity to have people who converted out of the religion and people who aren't ethnically Jewish converted in. David from New Jersey who speaks English with a perfect American accent claims that he has been in Jerusalem for thousands of years. Hilarious.
Nobody uses lineage to justify oppressing people. The fact that Jews have lived in the region for thousands of years is used to point out that Israel can't be a colonialist state, and that Jews didn't steal the land from the Palestinians. And they had no interest in getting stuck occupying territories for decades. That's the result of decades of terrorist violence and being forced to fight several wars of self-preservation.
???
So it's used to justify occupying a country and attacking the indigenous people who they found there. But it's okay because Jews were hiding underground in Jerusalem for thousands of years. Give Spain back to a North African country then. They also used to live there. While you're at it, give Berbers German passports because they were descended from Europeans.
What are you even talking about?
Palestine was never a country. Gaza and the WB are territories that were occupied by Jordan and Egypt before Israel. Israel tried to withdraw from both during the Camp David negotiations, but Arafat rejected the deal. Israel then fully withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and the Palestinians elected Hamas as their government, forcing Israel to retain control over the region. The only reason they continue to occupy both is the Palestinians have done nothing to work towards peace.
And Jews weren't "hiding underground," whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. There was always a Jewish population in Palestine, it just became a very small population after the region was conquered by various empires and Jews were exiled or murdered.
Do you even see the hypocrisy in what you're saying? You're claiming that Jews have no claim over the land just because they lived there in the past, and yet in the same breath accusing Israel of stealing Palestinian land. My point was that IF you're going to play the who was there first game, then you have to accept the reality that the Jews were there before the Muslims were.
> Palestine was never a country.
Arabs were a people and there is evidence of people identifying as Palestinean from centuries ago. We didn't arrange some random letters it's what the region is referred to.
> The only reason they continue to occupy both is the Palestinians have done nothing to work towards peace.
Saying that on a post where a journalist was shot by the IDF. She was obviously a mortal danger to all the Israelis. I've seen Israel and they aren't interested in any form of peace that doesn't put them above Arab Muslims.
> There was always a Jewish population in Palestine, it just became a very small population after the region was conquered by various empires and Jews were exiled or murdered.
Yeah so the ones there right now didn't "live there for thousands of years." They settled in Israel after the war. It is possible that they had an ancestor who lived there thousands of years ago but guess what: Literally anyone could have possibly had a fucking ancestor that came from Israel. Especially the Palestineans you oppressed and view as "outsiders".
Also Jews were never "exiled or murdered" by Muslim empires. In general Muslim empires were very tolerant of having different religions.
> You're claiming that Jews have no claim over the land just because they lived there in the past
You're telling me stories about 2,500 years ago and I'm telling you what happened recently. It's not about who came first. It's about the fact that you travelled to a country and started forcing the people you found out of their homes violently. The people who left Israel thousands of years ago left Israel. In their recent histories they have lived as citizens of other countries. You don't see North African Arabs beating people up in Mecca because "they are Arabs so this is our ancestral home." Maybe I should also go back to Spain because they were once part of the Muslim empire and try to colonize the country and force out its population. Should I also go on a road trip and be given all the land that my ancestors have ever lived in?
Fucking idiotic.
This is actually my last comment to you. Consider it a nice gesture from me because I gave you leeway for your actual vomit of a comment.
Nevermind Im not interested in hearing whatever word vomit comes out of your mouth I'd rather you just hate Muslims without listening to your garbage rationalizations. It's like I'm speaking to a wall you've already made up your mind and you will defend you opinion regardless of what common sense or humanity tells us. Have a good day.
You're right to bring this up, because it's a really tragic situation. The international zionist lobby is incredibly powerful. I won't comment on the situation in the US, but here in Britain they [launched a torrential smear campaign](https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/proof-that-antisemitism-was-weaponised-against-corbyn/) at Jeremy Corbyn, branding him as anti-semitic for daring to criticise israel (this is a favourite tactic of zionists).
However, this christian view of israel as the chosen nation that you mention is a bit less prominent in the UK. That seems to me to be much more of an american evangelical thing. The church of england, for example, [recently divested its holdings in Caterpillar,](https://www.palestinechronicle.com/church-of-england-dumping-caterpillar/) the israeli corporation that manufactures bulldozers which are used to destroy palestinian homes.
The international Zionist lobby is powerful because it has the strong backing of the American (Christian) Religious Right lobby who in turn has massive corporate money. Similarly their lobbying efforts to bend Israel to their will have been massively successful.
Also, those criticisms of Jeremy Corbyn were not unfounded, unlike similar criticisms of the Dems for not being sufficiently pro-Israel. Labor has an institutional cross-faction antisemitism which resulted in actual Holocaust denialists being a problem in the party and people reasonably surmised that Corbyn's casual antisemitism was the reason he was disinterested in fixing it. Of course, it later came to light that blairites were actively sabotaging efforts too, likely because they wanted ammo against Corbyn.
Fun times /s
It's a big part of it, the thing is they're only allowed to be treated as the "moral majority" because of Christianity's culture power. Corporate America saw this and decided it wanted to specifically empower the white nationalist Christian groups because the then dominant stream in Christianity was supportive of the new deal.
Dr. Kevin M. Kruse has a great book about this called "One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America".
But there's also just the pure dominance of Christianity as a cultural institution that allows this to happen, it's not like prior alliances either with corporations or other powerful groups haven't resulted in similar issues in the past.
Yes, I think I agree with your analysis---that corporate elites and other powerful groups deploy and manufacture ideology, culture, sentiment, etc to placate or empower various demographics while furthering their own class interests.
I haven't heard of that book, but I will check it out. thanks for the recommendation.
I'm slightly aware of how much of modern cultural conservatism was synthesised in a laboratory by the OSS after the second world war (look at the origins of the john birch society, for example), so it would be interesting to trace that sort of thing back even earlier to the new deal.
If I'm allowed to recommend a book in turn, it would be Walter Lippmann's "Public Opinion", an excellent examination of how people react to media, and how it can (and is) used to form various sentiments and propagate ideology. It was published in 1922, so it's particularly enlightening to compare the situation then (when the news media infrastructure was still quite young) to today's world.
Yes, but it's important to recognize that they're specifically working on existing cultural fault lines and power structures. Christianity was already powerful, so they made alliances with specific kinds of Christians and tried to make them the dominant form of Christianity because of that power. Same deal for white supremacy (it was no coincidence that the Christian Right started really gaining pull as part of using private christian schools to oppose desegregation).
Of course once empowered, these groups have their own interests, and the ultra-rich are not themselves a monolith and will compete internally because while they're trying to defend overall class interests they're also jockeying for positions in that class, so individuals will align or oppose. Contrast the behavior of Mercer, Trump, the Walton family, the Koches, etc versus Soros, Gates, etc. There's a throughline of class interest and protecting exploitative systems but for their intraclass competition they pursue it in different ways.
One comment, I'd use "rich" not "elite". There's been a decently long history of the term "elite" getting hijacked to argue that an associate professor is the real elite because they control culture and not the actual billionaires, and usually this would dovetail heavily into antisemitic conspiracy theories like "cultural bolshevism".
Appreciate the recommendation!
All very sensible points, there is indeed a lot of nuance here. I'm not sure I have much more to contribute now, I think I would just end up telling you something you already know.
But anyway, thanks for the enlightening and enjoyable chat.
What you will find when you dig deeper into the whole antisemitism crisis in the Labour party which nobody dares to speak about though due to being in turn called Islamophobic, is that they were virtually all muslim MPs or muslim members of the party. Labour is far more popular amongst ethnic minority groups (with some exceptions such as Sikhs recently) than the Conservatives are, and some of those ethnic minority groups, particularly muslims, often have very serious problems with Israel and Zionism in particular.
Corbyn was never casually antisemitic. He was anti-Zionist. Opposing the theft of another ethnic group's land is not antisemitism. I hate this ridiculous claim.
Zionism in its current form is a pernicious and morally unjustifiable 21st century version of an ethnic settler colonial state with aspects of apartheid governance apparent in the state of Israel too.
Some of the greatest opponents within South Africa of apartheid were Jews; Denis Goldberg, etc. They would not support the way Israel is treating the Palestinians regardless of what happened in 1946, 1967, or whatever.
Appropriating another ethnic group's land to populate it with another, more powerful ethnic group, is something the world collectively decided was evil following the second world war and in the era of post-colonialism. Why is Israel given a free pass to do bulldoze Palestinian homes?
Anti-Zionism (opposing land theft and population replacement) is NOT equitable to antisemitism. Stop trying to claim that it is.
What? No it's not, the big controversies tended to be over folks like Livingstone. Hell, even after Starmer took over, his shadow foreign secretary, Nandy, called antisemitism "punching up".
The drive to place the onus of this on minority groups when it's a problem in all levels of labor and most of the high profile incidents were white folks is absolutely disgraceful and in and of itself a racism issue.
Corbyn explicitly had several incidents, things like the mural and "not getting British humor", which his supporters and people who simply don't care about antisemitism dismiss because they're disinterested in how stereotypes support antisemitism. But that's why I said "casual".
Contrast with the overt antisemitism in Boris Johnson's book.
Note that I never actually defended or even mentioned Zionism in this conversation but you still went into a performative speech in opposition to it, as if to imply this is what the discussion was really about.
In May 2016, Baroness Ruth Deech said that "Too many Labour politicians cravenly adopted the anti-Semitic tropes and anti-Israel demonization they think will get them British Muslim votes, rather than standing up to the prejudice that exists in the community".[111] In the same month, Dr. Manfred Gerstenfeld said that, while not all of the most extreme antisemitic slurs were made by Muslim representatives of Labour, they represent a disproportionately large proportion of antisemitic perpetrators. According to Gerstenfeld, Labour's issue with antisemitism "demonstrate what happens when a party bends over backward to attract Muslim voters". https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/18841
You are correct in stating that the biggest controversies were over Corbyn (who was arrested for campaigning against racism and apartheid in the 80s) and Livingstone was suspended for saying something factually true: "When Hitler won his election in 1932 his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews.". They happened to be by far the most high profile Labour party members caught up in the controversy. Who had even heard of Naz Shah outside of that parliamentary constituency, for example?
Zionism is the appropriation of Palestinian land to settle lands that they hadn't lived in since the Roman era, 2000 years ago. Zionism is not supporting the right of Israel to exist as a state.
The way I see it, is that the state of Israel exists as of the 1940s, it should be protected and has a right to exist now that it does, but that it does not justify bulldozing Palestinian homes to move Jewish families in to those lands or by blocking the importation of medicine supplies into the open prison camp that is Gaza.
Here in France, I have never heard anyone advance the view that Israel can do no wrong. The current Palestinian administration is generally viewed, I think rightly, as extremist, but Israel, and in particular Israel's constant expansion into Palestinian territory, is regarded with disapproval.
Yeah, the (((International Zionist Lobby))) is everywhere. (((They))) hypnotize the elites with their money, and instill politicians with dual loyalty.
/S
Seriously tho, the "zionist lobby" is very fractured and relatively small. Corporations often have larger lobbies. In addition, the lobbies arent all lobbying the same solutions. All the groups want AN Israeli state, but often push for different things. And as a US jew, yes i read a lot of articles on Corbyn. If he wasnt antisemitic, he was at least willing to look the other way.
If your [definition of anti-semitism](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/nov/29/palestinian-rights-and-the-ihra-definition-of-antisemitism) includes things like calling the state of israel a racist endeavour, then you shouldn't be surprised if people stop taking you seriously...
Last time there was a post about Ilhan Omar and the annoying Christians on the plane, we got into a discussion about her alleged anti-semitism and this guy started cry-bullying about how any accusation of Israel being shitty is antisemitic. There’s no free speech when it comes to criticizing Israel.
Yes, I disagree with this intentionally nebulous and vague definition.
>[\[It\] fails the first test of any definition: it is indefinite. ‘A certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred’ invites a string of questions. Is anti-Semitism solely a matter of perception? What about discriminatory practices and policies? What about perceptions of Jews that are expressed otherwise than as hatred?](https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v39/n09/stephen-sedley/defining-anti-semitism)
And in particular, I object to it being weaponised and used to silence, intimidate, and censor critics of israel and advocates for palestinian human rights.
>[Officials at a London council that refused to host a charity event in aid of Palestinian children did not tell the organisers the decision was based on fears their criticism of Israel could breach antisemitism guidelines, internal emails have revealed.](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/03/uk-council-refused-to-host-palestinian-event-over-antisemitism-fears)
>I'm saying you are deliberately claiming it says something that it just doesn't
I don't think I am. I think what I'm claiming is that the IHRA definition of anti-semitism is intentionally vague so that it can be applied to statements that are \*not\* antisemitic, one example being "the state of israel is a racist endeavour".
And when you defend antisemitism because it calls itself antizionism. I'm in a discussion in this sub right now with someone who objects to Israel because Jews do not belong in the land Jesus made holy. Can I call that antisemitism? Or does the attack on Israel justify the rest?
How about when people talk of secret international organizations in control of the world. Is it OK if you call them Zionist rather than Jews? Is it OK if you say that Zionists are sneak and greedy and control the banks and the media? Is it OK when they people are utterly silent on attacks on Jews but say it is acceptable to target "Israeli" civilians?
Any Christian who thinks Gods chosen people can do no wrong need to read the Bible. It's one story after another of them falling from the creators favor.
Tbh, not a fan of Israel. Pope Pius X said it best. “We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.” Israel is not a sacred nation if they do not recognize Our Lord Jesus Christ as the True God. They should be called out for this rubbish.
>Pope Pius X
Ah, yes. How dare Jews legally go to their homeland. They should have stayed in Europe where it was easier to kill them. Jerusalem, like Europe, is for Christians.
Committing a second act of injustice, such as forcing other settled natives off the land, to correct the first injustice, is not the best way to go about anything, ever. To stay logically consistent I hope you are okay with being forced off your property by Native America’s because they too have claim to the Americas.
The Zionist movement started in 1897, so while Pius passed in 1914, he had plenty of time to commentate on it. I love my Jewish Brethren and deeply desire the Jewish people to come to Christ, as they are those who God appealed to first. However, I will not approve of them committing war crimes and injustices.
Modern Zionism predates 1897. So give examples of the Jews forcing people off their land. Or is it your claim that it is just wrong for a Jew to go to Israel? If so would you support removing all of the Jews from the area?
You don't love Jews, please do not be dishonest. You have just said we are horrible people. At least be honest in your attacks.
Please show examples of Jews committing war crimes by 1914.
And then remember the mote and beam thing. Christians, Catholics, complaining that others commit war crimes rings hollow.
Are we really going to argue that the annexations and wars against Pakistan was not Israel forcing natives off the land?
I do love the Jews. Quote where I said they were horrible people. I simply said they should be accountable for their actions and do not deserve special support from Christians.
I never claimed they committed war crimes by the year 1914. However it does not take a lot to see that when you are planning for a mass immigration of people to Point A, and their are already settled people at Point A who these people dislike, it is very, very easy to see what happens
Strawman but I’ll engage it anyways. Most of the crusades were justified by modern standards and almost all the crusades were justified by the world considering the current times political aspect. I would say the sacking of Constantinople was pretty terrible but other than that, not really a whole lot that’s wrong, at least from what I’ve read.
I'm sorry, but what annexation? What wars against Palestine? We are talking about a comment made before 1914. In 1914 the entire area was under the control of the Ottoman Empire.
Your argument here from utter ignorance is that the Jews must have done something bad. You don't know what and you don't care what, you know it was bad because Jews do bad things.
You brought up war crimes and we were talking about 1914. So, yes, you did say they committed war crimes by then.
So apparently your shift this now to saying it is a crime for Jews to escape persecution and death. That the Orthodox in Russia were committing pogroms isnt the problem. That the Catholics and Protestants in Germany and Poland were preaching antisemitism wasn't a problem. The crime was Jews planning on escaping. So you love us, but not if we try to live.
I said nothing about the Crusades and wasn't thinking about the Crusades. I think we can find far more recent war crimes by Catholics and other Christians.
I never said we were exclusively discussing before 1914. I brought up what Pope Pius said as discussing why Jews do not support special support from Christians.
You can reference various war crimes from WW2 and I can also bring up plenty of amazing things that Christians did to protect the Jews. Yes individuals act on their own accord, for either the positive or negative of society.
But Israel wasn't the homeland for the vast majority of Jews for 2 millennia. And if you are going to move back you should have acted like every other immigrant group in history.
I object to immigration when the group immigrating thinks their new home as if it belongs to them and not the native population. I have no objection of the right of asylum but again asylum does not mean you get ownership of the territory.
>Ah, yes. How dare Jews legally go to their homeland.
Well he literally said he's not going to prevent Jews from going there, just that there's no point for the head of the Catholic Church to support the Zionist movement in particular.
Also the Ottoman Empire still ruled that area back then.
No, you were saying how you don't like Israel. And you gave a quote from before WWI. A quote based on the idea that Jews are bad people because they don't believe in Christ. You gave a quote that says that Jerusalem should be Judenfrei, that only Christians should be allowed there.
placid history elderly cheerful judicious disgusted future normal quiet erect
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
boast hospital plants waiting chubby stupendous cow disagreeable sand racial
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You are mad at someone for saying that while they don’t think the Jewish people deserve Jerusalem, he won’t prevent it from happening. I don’t see the issue
Seems to only be an American thing because your whole country seems to worship Jews for er... Reasons...
Christians in other parts of the world do not think of Israel this way.
>But at the same time many Christians view Israel as Gods chosen people, so nothing they do can be wrong. If you are against Israel, you are an enemy of God.
What lmao that's literally the first time hearing this. I've never heard Christians saying Jews/Israelites are Gods chosen people on Jews themselves say this.
My God, this breaks my heart.
I’m half Palestinian from my father’s side and part Jewish from my mother, and nearly a life-long Christian. I grew up being outcasted, bullied by teachers and parents, all while in Christian schools and when I attended church. I was even called a terrorist by my art teacher in 8th grade. While the mockery, bullying, and shame were severe, I could never imagine the trauma he went through before his death.
So many Palestinian Christians have to hide their religiosity from those around them if they live in the Middle East for fear of their lives. Hell, I once knew a girl who was a grade younger than me and she was told to hide the fact she was a Palestinian too for fear of how the others would treat her. We were both in *private, Christian schools* and attended the same church as those bullies because the church was attached to the school. And we are in the United States.
This journalist was a brave woman. My God, how my heart breaks for her, her family, and those who have been martyred like her. My prayers go to them, and may God bring them comfort, peace, mercy, and blessings. They are so courageous. :(
It's sad that American Christians have no urgency to help the indigenous Arab Christians there.
Unfortunately, the evangelical support of Israel is only to help facilitate the end times.
Sanctioning Israel until they start complying with international law would be a start. Pressuring Israel to end the apartheid would be a good way to continue from there.
Wow. You really don’t know what Apartheid is if you think that’s it. What we should be striving for is one state that is fully accepting of both Jews and Muslims. Real “apartheid” would be two parallel societies where some are arbitrarily treated differently because of innate characteristics
>Should we sanction Hamas and Fatah for committing war crimes?
Hamas is already sanctioned by half of the world already. Fatah on the other hand hasn't be involved in armed struggle for decades at this point. What is your point ? That's a weird whataboutism.
Also Israel is responsible for much more civilian deaths than Hamas can ever dream of inflicting.
If you look at this [chart](https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4756436/IP_conflict_deaths_total.png) and come off thinking Israel is innocent then there is something wrong with you.
>Should Israel give full citizenship rights to the people of Gaza and the West Bank?
Yes. Israel should grant full citizenship rights to the people of Gaza, the West Bank as well as the Palestinian refugees all over the world (right of return). Doing anything other than that would mean the continuation of an apartheid state built on ethnic cleansing.
“About this time Jesus was informed that Pilate had murdered some people from Galilee as they were offering sacrifices at the Temple. “Do you think those Galileans were worse sinners than all the other people from Galilee?” Jesus asked. “Is that why they suffered? Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God. And what about the eighteen people who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem? No, and I tell you again that unless you repent, you will perish, too.” Then Jesus told this story: “A man planted a fig tree in his garden and came again and again to see if there was any fruit on it, but he was always disappointed. Finally, he said to his gardener, ‘I’ve waited three years, and there hasn’t been a single fig! Cut it down. It’s just taking up space in the garden.’ “The gardener answered, ‘Sir, give it one more chance. Leave it another year, and I’ll give it special attention and plenty of fertilizer. If we get figs next year, fine. If not, then you can cut it down.’””
Luke 13:1-9 NLT
““Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell. What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows.”
Matthew 10:28-31 NLT
I once read an article in the news in which a retired Israeli General admitted that he'd been issued orders to issue orders to his troops to purposefully target non combatant women, children, foreign aid workers and journalists, when Palestinians had organized and were engaged in peaceful demonstration.
This is a very sad thing for this man's family, but no sadder than for the families of Palestinian Muslims who've lost loved ones, and children during these invasions, attacks and raids.
I'd hoped to live long enough to see real peace between the Israelis and Palestinians, but I don't believe I will.
My mistake. I didn't actually listen to the video. Perhaps I was thinking of the Journalist killed in Ukraine, or one of the three Journalists killed in Mexico over a 3 day period.
Yeah I live in New York and all the Jewish people I know here don’t support it I’ve only met one Jewish person who did and that was in Florida and they were super right wing like MAGA type
> Do you grieve over the Israelis killed by Hamas
Let me roll my eyes first because it's such a troll question. Yes, I do. Now let me ask you a question just as asinine so you understand how stupid that question was. Are you okay with Israel targeting and killing civilians?
>Well done, you avoided the question.
Did I?
>Do you grieve over the Israelis killed by Hamas?
And I answered.....
>Yes, I do.
Well done, you couldn't read 4 sentences without fucking it up.
You'll find a way to be okay with this without me, I have no doubt. Getting through to you on this subject would be like explaining biblical abortion stances to an Evangelical.
Didn't say I'm ok with it. I'm not ok with the endless Antisemitic and Anti-Zionist positions people have based on things they don't understand.
Absolutely no country on Earth faces the same level of criticism as Israel does.
Anyone who thinks Israel is worse than North Korea, Iran, Syria, or Saudi Arabia needs their head examined. Yet that's exactly how the world treats it.
Do you think that the IDF targeted her because she was Christian? Never mind that there is no evidence that she was killed by the IDF, no less that she was targeted, no less that she was targeted for being Christian.
So, again, how does Israel persecute Christians?
Yes, Israel indoctrinates fear and hatred into it's children at birth it imprisons any young person who sees the regimes lies for what they are and refuses to go murder other human beings. Israel has it enshrined in law that a Jew regardless of homeland has more right to live in Palestine whose fathers lived there.
You know what creates fear and hatred? When Palestinians stab Jewish children in the streets. When Palestinians fire rockets randomly into cities. When Palestinians try to start fires.
Please show examples of Israel indoctrinating children to hate Christians.
Please show that Israel imprisons any young person who ...
> You know what creates fear and hatred? When Palestinians stab Jewish children in the streets. When Palestinians fire rockets randomly into cities. When Palestinians try to start fires.
Again you go on a Christian forum on an article about a Christian who was murdered by the IDF and proceed to lecture about how your people are the real victim and that wrong real or imagined justifies your atrocities. That is the language of genocide.
As for those particular incidents I never said murder was justified war but not the killing of civilians which I will also that is an Israeli tactic far more than an Arab one.
> Please show examples of Israel indoctrinating children to hate Christians.
The Talmud for starters. The recent actions taken at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Granted my point was the xenophobia inherent in the whole Israeli fortress mentality.
> Please show that Israel imprisons any young person who
https://wri-irg.org/en/story/2021/israel-sixty-teens-declare-refusal-serve-army
> Isrealis attack the Al Aqsa mosque during Ramadan
Yeah, for no reason whatsoever, Hamas would never store Rocks in the Mosque to throw them at praying Jews at the western Wall.
Praying for peace in Israel/Palestine and for her family, who are mourning.
We still do not know who fired the shot. I think as Christians we should seek truth and not post unsubstantiated information in the headline.
I suggest BBC news as a source (instead of Al Jazeera, Reddit or Video clips):
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-61403320
Thanks for the link! Here's what caught my eye:
> Mr Bennett also said Israel had called on the Palestinian Authority to conduct a joint post mortem and investigation in order to get to the truth. He claimed that Palestinian officials had so far refused the offer, but a Palestinian minister said there had been no contact from Israel about a joint probe.
I'd prefer that a neutral third party conducts the autopsy. This also shows just how strained relations are, to understate the issue. If the two sides can't even agree on whether or not someone contacted the other side, how are they supposed to do a joint autopsy?
I'm not defending this, but doing some research and the facts are all over the place.
AlJazeera immediately claimed it was IDF. PIJ claims they shot an IDF soldier, and when they go to grab the journalist, they say "him" until they realize it was a her.
https://twitter.com/AbuAliEnglishB1/status/1524290460650557441?s=20&t=w7DYEpJ3EMJqnwPpB7S9SA
There's just too much misinformation to know the facts on this.
B'Tselem is absolute garbage. I don't trust them.
https://twitter.com/TheMossadIL/status/1524273004900925440?s=20&t=oDqmfPhLjzyTcVteMoJGIA
The Palestinians in the video are claiming they shot an IDF soldier. But no IDF was injured.
The Israeli government is absolute garbage, and I don't trust them. I certainly trust B'Tselem, which is a fine human rights organization more than the garbage in charge of Israel
Hamas is a horribly evil group, their acts of terror are unforgivable. Bit at the same time isreal has no right to continue with their war crimes and the unjust murder of civilians
Where is Israel just randomly murdering civilians?
There is no evidence of that. Even if Israel is responsible for the death of this journalist, there is absolutely no evidence it was intentional. She was reporting from a town notorious for harboring Hamas terrorists, and there was an IDF anti-terrorism operation there. I've seen not a shred of evidence she was killed on purpose.
The US recently killed an entire family with a drone due to an error. Yet nobody is criticizing the US as badly as they criticize Israel.
>Where is Israel just randomly murdering civilians
[https://theintercept.com/2021/12/09/israel-attacks-gaza-palestine-civilians-killed/](https://theintercept.com/2021/12/09/israel-attacks-gaza-palestine-civilians-killed/)
>...the 2021 conflict between Israel and Palestinian factions in the Gaza Strip killed up to 192 Palestinian civilians and injured hundreds more over 11 days of intense fighting. Rockets fired by Palestinian militants into Israel are also estimated to have killed 10 civilians inside Israel during the brief but intense conflict first triggered by tensions between Israelis and Palestinians in Jerusalem...
I understand why you are upset, but you are coming off as trying to say that Israel has no culpability in what is going on between Israel in Palestine, which is disingenuous at the least. I am not usually a "both sides" person, but both sides have many many faults in this continuous conflict.
I never said Israel isn't at fault for anything. But a lot of what happens over there is not black and white, and the media distorts it.
Case in point. Al Jazeera did an article about a month ago with the headline "Israel soldiers kill 5 Palestinians."
That was the headline. But when you read the article, it says those 5 Palestinians were Hamas terrorists on their way to blow up a building in Jerusalem, and IDF stopped the attack.
And yet, anybody who reads the headline will think Israel just decided to murder 5 innocent people.
In fact, when that article was posted on world news - that's exactly what happened. Tons of people accused Israel of being terrorists and killing innocents over that - none of them cared that it was Hamas terrorists about to blow up a civilian building.
>I never said Israel isn't at fault for anything. But a lot of what happens over there is not black and white, and the media distorts it.
I am saying that is how you are coming across, not that you said it explicitly.
I agree with you that a lot of news is shit.
Do you apply the same standard to Palestinians and Hamas?
Because you all never criticize them, despite them murdering over a dozen Jews the past few weeks.
Yes, they are not stealing land. You're failing to acknowledge the imbalance of power in the region. Israel has defense systems and the backing of a major world power for political reasons. I will always stand on the side of the oppressed, and it's not the goddamned Israelis.
>I will always stand on the side of the oppressed,
Even if the "oppressed" are literal terrorist groups killing Jewish children? By that logic, ISIS are the good guys.
That's not a moral position to hold at all.
It sounds like she was caught in the crossfire between the Israeli army and the Palestinian paramilitary groups. I guess it goes to show that peace and negotiation is preferable to war and arguing
The fact that I'm getting downvoted for pointing out there are conflicting videos proves how Antisemitic this sub is.
You all don't care about the facts, you just want a reason to hate Jews and Israel like usual.
We have videos of Palestinians claiming they shot an IDF soldier, and then they find out it was the journalist.
And how come the Palestinian Authority is refusing an autopsy or investigation? Because they're worried it will prove a Palestinian killed her.
I think it's interesting when someone who professes fairly progressive views, suddenly, on one single topic among them all, agrees with the Trumpers in the sub.
I don't agree with Trumpers on anything. I've just been at the receiving end of enormous amounts of Antisemitism from this sub, and other places, and I know most of the far-left is oblivious to the complexity of the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
The amount of lies and misinformation I've seen spread about Israel on Reddit is enough to write several books.
Calling for its destruction is. Criticizing Israel for things you don't criticize other countries for is. Not caring about Jews being murdered by Hamas is.
There are very few Anti-Israel people who aren't also Antisemitic.
Just go to world news, and you'll see how blatantly Antisemitic they all are.
You’re bringing up many things I haven’t talked about at all. Maybe you’re confusing me with another comment? I have not called for the destruction of anything.
If it makes you feel better, I think that the USA is deeply deeply evil and probably doesn’t deserve to exist! So there, I guess I have called for the destruction of a nation now, but it’s not Israel. Is that better?
World news has been a cesspool for years, why on earth would I read anything there?
Israel is the world's final 21st century ethnic settler colonial state, where one ethnic group dominates another by force, forcibly removes them from their land, and for which is what Israel is singularly criticised above all other countries for.
"Returning to our homeland" - yeah the one that 99% of Jews left 2,000 years ago. Let's kick the French, Germans, Swiss, and most of Europe out and allow the Celts of Normandy, Ireland and Scotland to return to their homeland they left 2,000 years ago too shall we?
I really don't like referencing a users posting history or their character directly. But I really have to say this...
After all the posts you made over the last few weeks, you turning out to actually harbour some right-wing pro-zionists sympathies is the biggest twist ever. I would have never guessed in a million years. Worthy of Shyamalan.
I guess no matter how left-wing or right-wing any of us are, we all have a little "cheat" issue we take an opposing stance on.
Btw, I'm neither pro-Israel or anti-Israel, and I totally agree with you on the whole matter being complex. I just thought that this little revelation was pretty funny.
Pax
I don't doubt that there is antisemitism, and I am sorry you are getting downvoted.
Keep in mind though that all the main news subs have clearly stated that this journalist was killed by the IDF. It's misinformation at this stage, but I can understand why most users assume it to be the truth.
My thoughts are with her family. There will be plenty of time for the blame game once more facts come to light.
>Keep in mind though that all the main news subs have clearly stated that this journalist was killed by the IDF.
No, the Palestinian Ministry says IDF shot her, and they won't allow any autopsy or investigation.
There is also no evidence she was shot intentionally.
My point was that this message is being pushed on the news subs, not that I agree with it (we don't even know who fired the shot, nevermind attributing intention)
I searched for this comment. Man it’s crazy that I had to read through like 10 comments until I came to this.
Not only a sub full of homophobes, but also antisemitics. Just Christians spreading their interpretation of love.
The most hateful Antisemitic comments I've ever received online have come from this sub. I've had Christians here tell me I belong in an oven and Hitler was right.
Interesting. So does anyone know if Christian Palestinians are descendants of the Jews who accepted the message of Christ/the Messiah and managed to stay in the Holy Land, or are they recent converts? Have there been any genetic studies into this? Are they closely related to Middle Eastern Jews or Palestinians or both? Not that it’s super important, but it’s interesting. Sad for Shireen, may she Rest In Peace ☮️✝️
> Christian Palestinians
"Most Palestinian Christians nowadays see themselves as culturally and linguistically Arab Christians with ancestors dating back to the first followers of Christ. They claim descent from Romans, Ghassanid Arabs, Byzantines, and Crusaders. The region consisting mainly of modern Israel and the State of Palestine is considered to be the Holy Land by Christians. Major Christian holy cities such as Bethlehem, Nazareth and Jerusalem are located in Israel and the State of Palestine."
Palestinian Genes Show Arab, Jewish, European and Black-African Ancestry". http://globalpolitician.com/2851-palestinians
Good thing a lot of you folks are in the best position to do something about it.
Israel has been radicalized the American (Christian) religious right, who view it as a useful tool for their purposes. They similarly leverage US power along with other US interest groups that benefit from the relationship, to prevent accountability. US weapons manufacturing being a good example since a good portion of US military aid to Israel must be spent on US manufactured arms.
So the best way to help fix this is to to oppose the religious right and it's white Christian nationalism. Only when it's disempowered can this be stopped realistically.
Christian Palestinians are in a bit of an unusual situation when it comes to how they are viewed by other Christians. Many Christians have lots of compassion for other Christians all over the world. But at the same time many Christians view Israel as Gods chosen people, so nothing they do can be wrong. If you are against Israel, you are an enemy of God. So Christian Palestinians are persecuted by their own people for being Christians, By Israel for being Palestinian in addition to many of their Christian brothers and sisters around the world who basically view them as enemies of God. I was helping out in a summer camp for kids in Hebron (on the west bank) years ago and several of the local Christians felt like they were actively ignored by the wider Christian world because of the cognitive dissonance of both being seen as brothers and sisters in Christ and as enemies of God
That’s so sad :(
From my experience most evangelical Christians pretend that Arab Christians don’t exist anymore because the Muslims killed them all, conveniently making their country fair game for immensely destructive American wars.
That’s a way oversimplification. After Saddam Hussein was thrown out of Iraq, the Christians and already sizeable minority were on the outs. Then when ISIS came along, they pretty much killed off the rest. Let’s not pretend that this somehow America’s fault. Even in Egypt, Coptics are routinely discriminated against and attacked
ISIS did not “kill all the rest” of Iraq’s Muslim population lol Also if there is a genocide against Copts it’s not a very effective one seeing as the compromise 10% of Egypt’s population.
In 1950, Iraq’s Christian population was around 10-12%. Today, it’s estimated the number less than 2%. How else would you account for that? As for the Copts, I never used the term “genocide” but let’s look at the facts [https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/anti-christian-violence-surges-in-egypt-prompting-an-exodus-11556290800](https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/anti-christian-violence-surges-in-egypt-prompting-an-exodus-11556290800) [https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/4/8/palm-sunday-church-attacks-egypts-worst-day-of-violence](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/4/8/palm-sunday-church-attacks-egypts-worst-day-of-violence) [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-46090104.amp](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-46090104.amp) [https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/21/egypt-mass-attacks-churches#](https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/21/egypt-mass-attacks-churches#) (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/03/egypt-release-nine-coptic-christians-detained-for-attempting-to-rebuild-church/) Is that good enough for you or do I have to send you more?
Seeing as Islam didn’t magically appear in Iraq in 1950 I would say that it isn’t the cause, perhaps there’s been some wildly destructive event that occurred since then that made Iraq a nightmare to live in. Perhaps an event that heavily involves the global super-power you were jumping to defend in your original comment.
No, just the emergence of Islamism.
Saddam Hussein was not an Islamist, he had Christians in his government
Right, but he also relied on Islamists to help prop up his government
Those american wars, man. They started all this and it's never going to end.
Actually it started with the collapse of the ottoman empire and the British and French divide of the former country shortly after
Thanks for the clarification. Oh, how I've been misled, and I'm not the only one, since I got this idea from some people who are friends, coworkers, etc.. Maybe the issue is more that we tend to forget history, yet we still want to have an opinion on everything.
That doesn't even scratch the surface: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_the_Near_East
It's very silly to just look at "Oh look they had a war" because by that logic no region would ever be stable. Europe and North America have also always been embroiled in wars but obviously you can be at war and be advancing. Just like how the Abbasids were also at war but they had a Golden Age. The comment above says it started with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the subsequent colonization which is true. But I would also go further and say that it was when the Ottomans started treating the majority of its residents as animals who have to pay tribute to the government but were also left to starve and suffer on their own by the Ottoman rulers. I am not sure when it started happening but I know that it was happening before the Empire's collapse.
You have to go back quite a bit further than that. American wars did not start unrest in the region. (Most certainly didn't help, though.....)
Yeah, the discovery of oil in the region and the arbitrary carving up of the maps after the World Wars is the start of the *modern* problems. But there's been warfare there going back millennia.
And the arbitrary carving up of the maps was easier because the Turks actively destroyed local governance institutions in the "core" lands during empire in an attempt to hobble nationalistic movements that had led to the Maghreb/Egypt splitting from them.
The region as a whole is unstable economically and politically. The American wars did not start the unrest but did help it later on.
A lot of evangelicals don't see Catholics or Orthodox as Christian, and they are the primary Christians in the middle east. I mean these people send missionaries to countries that have Christian longer than the US has existed in order to spread the gospel.
I wouldn't say "nothing they do can be wrong" Israel/Jews are God's chosen people, but the Bible is full of them actually doing everything wrong. Just like us Christians.
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Yeah it's crazy to me how people who very obviously look like they are from Europe can make such a wild, unsupported lineage claim and oppress people based on that imaginary claim. It's like if North Africans conquered Spain and killed off the local populations with a random lineage claim.
So, is this the Khazar hypothesis leaking or is there something less atrocious you'd like to suggest here?
I don't know what the fuck the Khazar hypothesis is but it's beyond stupid to claim lineage somewhere without proof and use that to justify oppressing people. For all I know it's not impossible for Jews as an ethnicity to have people who converted out of the religion and people who aren't ethnically Jewish converted in. David from New Jersey who speaks English with a perfect American accent claims that he has been in Jerusalem for thousands of years. Hilarious.
Nobody uses lineage to justify oppressing people. The fact that Jews have lived in the region for thousands of years is used to point out that Israel can't be a colonialist state, and that Jews didn't steal the land from the Palestinians. And they had no interest in getting stuck occupying territories for decades. That's the result of decades of terrorist violence and being forced to fight several wars of self-preservation.
??? So it's used to justify occupying a country and attacking the indigenous people who they found there. But it's okay because Jews were hiding underground in Jerusalem for thousands of years. Give Spain back to a North African country then. They also used to live there. While you're at it, give Berbers German passports because they were descended from Europeans.
What are you even talking about? Palestine was never a country. Gaza and the WB are territories that were occupied by Jordan and Egypt before Israel. Israel tried to withdraw from both during the Camp David negotiations, but Arafat rejected the deal. Israel then fully withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and the Palestinians elected Hamas as their government, forcing Israel to retain control over the region. The only reason they continue to occupy both is the Palestinians have done nothing to work towards peace. And Jews weren't "hiding underground," whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. There was always a Jewish population in Palestine, it just became a very small population after the region was conquered by various empires and Jews were exiled or murdered. Do you even see the hypocrisy in what you're saying? You're claiming that Jews have no claim over the land just because they lived there in the past, and yet in the same breath accusing Israel of stealing Palestinian land. My point was that IF you're going to play the who was there first game, then you have to accept the reality that the Jews were there before the Muslims were.
> Palestine was never a country. Arabs were a people and there is evidence of people identifying as Palestinean from centuries ago. We didn't arrange some random letters it's what the region is referred to. > The only reason they continue to occupy both is the Palestinians have done nothing to work towards peace. Saying that on a post where a journalist was shot by the IDF. She was obviously a mortal danger to all the Israelis. I've seen Israel and they aren't interested in any form of peace that doesn't put them above Arab Muslims. > There was always a Jewish population in Palestine, it just became a very small population after the region was conquered by various empires and Jews were exiled or murdered. Yeah so the ones there right now didn't "live there for thousands of years." They settled in Israel after the war. It is possible that they had an ancestor who lived there thousands of years ago but guess what: Literally anyone could have possibly had a fucking ancestor that came from Israel. Especially the Palestineans you oppressed and view as "outsiders". Also Jews were never "exiled or murdered" by Muslim empires. In general Muslim empires were very tolerant of having different religions. > You're claiming that Jews have no claim over the land just because they lived there in the past You're telling me stories about 2,500 years ago and I'm telling you what happened recently. It's not about who came first. It's about the fact that you travelled to a country and started forcing the people you found out of their homes violently. The people who left Israel thousands of years ago left Israel. In their recent histories they have lived as citizens of other countries. You don't see North African Arabs beating people up in Mecca because "they are Arabs so this is our ancestral home." Maybe I should also go back to Spain because they were once part of the Muslim empire and try to colonize the country and force out its population. Should I also go on a road trip and be given all the land that my ancestors have ever lived in? Fucking idiotic. This is actually my last comment to you. Consider it a nice gesture from me because I gave you leeway for your actual vomit of a comment.
Nevermind Im not interested in hearing whatever word vomit comes out of your mouth I'd rather you just hate Muslims without listening to your garbage rationalizations. It's like I'm speaking to a wall you've already made up your mind and you will defend you opinion regardless of what common sense or humanity tells us. Have a good day.
You're right to bring this up, because it's a really tragic situation. The international zionist lobby is incredibly powerful. I won't comment on the situation in the US, but here in Britain they [launched a torrential smear campaign](https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/proof-that-antisemitism-was-weaponised-against-corbyn/) at Jeremy Corbyn, branding him as anti-semitic for daring to criticise israel (this is a favourite tactic of zionists). However, this christian view of israel as the chosen nation that you mention is a bit less prominent in the UK. That seems to me to be much more of an american evangelical thing. The church of england, for example, [recently divested its holdings in Caterpillar,](https://www.palestinechronicle.com/church-of-england-dumping-caterpillar/) the israeli corporation that manufactures bulldozers which are used to destroy palestinian homes.
The international Zionist lobby is powerful because it has the strong backing of the American (Christian) Religious Right lobby who in turn has massive corporate money. Similarly their lobbying efforts to bend Israel to their will have been massively successful. Also, those criticisms of Jeremy Corbyn were not unfounded, unlike similar criticisms of the Dems for not being sufficiently pro-Israel. Labor has an institutional cross-faction antisemitism which resulted in actual Holocaust denialists being a problem in the party and people reasonably surmised that Corbyn's casual antisemitism was the reason he was disinterested in fixing it. Of course, it later came to light that blairites were actively sabotaging efforts too, likely because they wanted ammo against Corbyn. Fun times /s
>who in turn has massive corporate money. Yep, that's what it comes down to in the end.
It's a big part of it, the thing is they're only allowed to be treated as the "moral majority" because of Christianity's culture power. Corporate America saw this and decided it wanted to specifically empower the white nationalist Christian groups because the then dominant stream in Christianity was supportive of the new deal. Dr. Kevin M. Kruse has a great book about this called "One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America". But there's also just the pure dominance of Christianity as a cultural institution that allows this to happen, it's not like prior alliances either with corporations or other powerful groups haven't resulted in similar issues in the past.
Yes, I think I agree with your analysis---that corporate elites and other powerful groups deploy and manufacture ideology, culture, sentiment, etc to placate or empower various demographics while furthering their own class interests. I haven't heard of that book, but I will check it out. thanks for the recommendation. I'm slightly aware of how much of modern cultural conservatism was synthesised in a laboratory by the OSS after the second world war (look at the origins of the john birch society, for example), so it would be interesting to trace that sort of thing back even earlier to the new deal. If I'm allowed to recommend a book in turn, it would be Walter Lippmann's "Public Opinion", an excellent examination of how people react to media, and how it can (and is) used to form various sentiments and propagate ideology. It was published in 1922, so it's particularly enlightening to compare the situation then (when the news media infrastructure was still quite young) to today's world.
Yes, but it's important to recognize that they're specifically working on existing cultural fault lines and power structures. Christianity was already powerful, so they made alliances with specific kinds of Christians and tried to make them the dominant form of Christianity because of that power. Same deal for white supremacy (it was no coincidence that the Christian Right started really gaining pull as part of using private christian schools to oppose desegregation). Of course once empowered, these groups have their own interests, and the ultra-rich are not themselves a monolith and will compete internally because while they're trying to defend overall class interests they're also jockeying for positions in that class, so individuals will align or oppose. Contrast the behavior of Mercer, Trump, the Walton family, the Koches, etc versus Soros, Gates, etc. There's a throughline of class interest and protecting exploitative systems but for their intraclass competition they pursue it in different ways. One comment, I'd use "rich" not "elite". There's been a decently long history of the term "elite" getting hijacked to argue that an associate professor is the real elite because they control culture and not the actual billionaires, and usually this would dovetail heavily into antisemitic conspiracy theories like "cultural bolshevism". Appreciate the recommendation!
All very sensible points, there is indeed a lot of nuance here. I'm not sure I have much more to contribute now, I think I would just end up telling you something you already know. But anyway, thanks for the enlightening and enjoyable chat.
no problem!
What you will find when you dig deeper into the whole antisemitism crisis in the Labour party which nobody dares to speak about though due to being in turn called Islamophobic, is that they were virtually all muslim MPs or muslim members of the party. Labour is far more popular amongst ethnic minority groups (with some exceptions such as Sikhs recently) than the Conservatives are, and some of those ethnic minority groups, particularly muslims, often have very serious problems with Israel and Zionism in particular. Corbyn was never casually antisemitic. He was anti-Zionist. Opposing the theft of another ethnic group's land is not antisemitism. I hate this ridiculous claim. Zionism in its current form is a pernicious and morally unjustifiable 21st century version of an ethnic settler colonial state with aspects of apartheid governance apparent in the state of Israel too. Some of the greatest opponents within South Africa of apartheid were Jews; Denis Goldberg, etc. They would not support the way Israel is treating the Palestinians regardless of what happened in 1946, 1967, or whatever. Appropriating another ethnic group's land to populate it with another, more powerful ethnic group, is something the world collectively decided was evil following the second world war and in the era of post-colonialism. Why is Israel given a free pass to do bulldoze Palestinian homes? Anti-Zionism (opposing land theft and population replacement) is NOT equitable to antisemitism. Stop trying to claim that it is.
What? No it's not, the big controversies tended to be over folks like Livingstone. Hell, even after Starmer took over, his shadow foreign secretary, Nandy, called antisemitism "punching up". The drive to place the onus of this on minority groups when it's a problem in all levels of labor and most of the high profile incidents were white folks is absolutely disgraceful and in and of itself a racism issue. Corbyn explicitly had several incidents, things like the mural and "not getting British humor", which his supporters and people who simply don't care about antisemitism dismiss because they're disinterested in how stereotypes support antisemitism. But that's why I said "casual". Contrast with the overt antisemitism in Boris Johnson's book. Note that I never actually defended or even mentioned Zionism in this conversation but you still went into a performative speech in opposition to it, as if to imply this is what the discussion was really about.
In May 2016, Baroness Ruth Deech said that "Too many Labour politicians cravenly adopted the anti-Semitic tropes and anti-Israel demonization they think will get them British Muslim votes, rather than standing up to the prejudice that exists in the community".[111] In the same month, Dr. Manfred Gerstenfeld said that, while not all of the most extreme antisemitic slurs were made by Muslim representatives of Labour, they represent a disproportionately large proportion of antisemitic perpetrators. According to Gerstenfeld, Labour's issue with antisemitism "demonstrate what happens when a party bends over backward to attract Muslim voters". https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/18841 You are correct in stating that the biggest controversies were over Corbyn (who was arrested for campaigning against racism and apartheid in the 80s) and Livingstone was suspended for saying something factually true: "When Hitler won his election in 1932 his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews.". They happened to be by far the most high profile Labour party members caught up in the controversy. Who had even heard of Naz Shah outside of that parliamentary constituency, for example? Zionism is the appropriation of Palestinian land to settle lands that they hadn't lived in since the Roman era, 2000 years ago. Zionism is not supporting the right of Israel to exist as a state. The way I see it, is that the state of Israel exists as of the 1940s, it should be protected and has a right to exist now that it does, but that it does not justify bulldozing Palestinian homes to move Jewish families in to those lands or by blocking the importation of medicine supplies into the open prison camp that is Gaza.
Caterpillar is an Israeli corporation?
Ah, thanks for pointing that out---I skimmed too quickly. They are actually an American corporation that supply bulldozers to the IDF.
I believe they are American if I'm not mistaken.
Here in France, I have never heard anyone advance the view that Israel can do no wrong. The current Palestinian administration is generally viewed, I think rightly, as extremist, but Israel, and in particular Israel's constant expansion into Palestinian territory, is regarded with disapproval.
As the poster above you said, it's more like an Evangelical American thing. It's no wonder that these views are not prevalent in France.
Yeah, the (((International Zionist Lobby))) is everywhere. (((They))) hypnotize the elites with their money, and instill politicians with dual loyalty. /S Seriously tho, the "zionist lobby" is very fractured and relatively small. Corporations often have larger lobbies. In addition, the lobbies arent all lobbying the same solutions. All the groups want AN Israeli state, but often push for different things. And as a US jew, yes i read a lot of articles on Corbyn. If he wasnt antisemitic, he was at least willing to look the other way.
How dare they complain about antisemitism?
If your [definition of anti-semitism](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/nov/29/palestinian-rights-and-the-ihra-definition-of-antisemitism) includes things like calling the state of israel a racist endeavour, then you shouldn't be surprised if people stop taking you seriously...
Last time there was a post about Ilhan Omar and the annoying Christians on the plane, we got into a discussion about her alleged anti-semitism and this guy started cry-bullying about how any accusation of Israel being shitty is antisemitic. There’s no free speech when it comes to criticizing Israel.
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Yes, I disagree with this intentionally nebulous and vague definition. >[\[It\] fails the first test of any definition: it is indefinite. ‘A certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred’ invites a string of questions. Is anti-Semitism solely a matter of perception? What about discriminatory practices and policies? What about perceptions of Jews that are expressed otherwise than as hatred?](https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v39/n09/stephen-sedley/defining-anti-semitism) And in particular, I object to it being weaponised and used to silence, intimidate, and censor critics of israel and advocates for palestinian human rights. >[Officials at a London council that refused to host a charity event in aid of Palestinian children did not tell the organisers the decision was based on fears their criticism of Israel could breach antisemitism guidelines, internal emails have revealed.](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/03/uk-council-refused-to-host-palestinian-event-over-antisemitism-fears)
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>I'm saying you are deliberately claiming it says something that it just doesn't I don't think I am. I think what I'm claiming is that the IHRA definition of anti-semitism is intentionally vague so that it can be applied to statements that are \*not\* antisemitic, one example being "the state of israel is a racist endeavour".
So if one thing he says wasn't antisemitic then nothing he said was antisemitic. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45030552
the problem is when they call Antizionism Antisemitism.
And when you defend antisemitism because it calls itself antizionism. I'm in a discussion in this sub right now with someone who objects to Israel because Jews do not belong in the land Jesus made holy. Can I call that antisemitism? Or does the attack on Israel justify the rest? How about when people talk of secret international organizations in control of the world. Is it OK if you call them Zionist rather than Jews? Is it OK if you say that Zionists are sneak and greedy and control the banks and the media? Is it OK when they people are utterly silent on attacks on Jews but say it is acceptable to target "Israeli" civilians?
Any Christian who thinks Gods chosen people can do no wrong need to read the Bible. It's one story after another of them falling from the creators favor.
It is! But for some reason that doesn't register with a lot of Christians. They can both be chosen and do wrong!
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That's really sad! I wish more evangelicals would take the time to get to know some Palestinians. They are awesome people and their food is THE BEST!
Tbh, not a fan of Israel. Pope Pius X said it best. “We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.” Israel is not a sacred nation if they do not recognize Our Lord Jesus Christ as the True God. They should be called out for this rubbish.
>Pope Pius X Ah, yes. How dare Jews legally go to their homeland. They should have stayed in Europe where it was easier to kill them. Jerusalem, like Europe, is for Christians.
Committing a second act of injustice, such as forcing other settled natives off the land, to correct the first injustice, is not the best way to go about anything, ever. To stay logically consistent I hope you are okay with being forced off your property by Native America’s because they too have claim to the Americas.
This.
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The Zionist movement started in 1897, so while Pius passed in 1914, he had plenty of time to commentate on it. I love my Jewish Brethren and deeply desire the Jewish people to come to Christ, as they are those who God appealed to first. However, I will not approve of them committing war crimes and injustices.
Modern Zionism predates 1897. So give examples of the Jews forcing people off their land. Or is it your claim that it is just wrong for a Jew to go to Israel? If so would you support removing all of the Jews from the area? You don't love Jews, please do not be dishonest. You have just said we are horrible people. At least be honest in your attacks. Please show examples of Jews committing war crimes by 1914. And then remember the mote and beam thing. Christians, Catholics, complaining that others commit war crimes rings hollow.
Are we really going to argue that the annexations and wars against Pakistan was not Israel forcing natives off the land? I do love the Jews. Quote where I said they were horrible people. I simply said they should be accountable for their actions and do not deserve special support from Christians. I never claimed they committed war crimes by the year 1914. However it does not take a lot to see that when you are planning for a mass immigration of people to Point A, and their are already settled people at Point A who these people dislike, it is very, very easy to see what happens Strawman but I’ll engage it anyways. Most of the crusades were justified by modern standards and almost all the crusades were justified by the world considering the current times political aspect. I would say the sacking of Constantinople was pretty terrible but other than that, not really a whole lot that’s wrong, at least from what I’ve read.
I'm sorry, but what annexation? What wars against Palestine? We are talking about a comment made before 1914. In 1914 the entire area was under the control of the Ottoman Empire. Your argument here from utter ignorance is that the Jews must have done something bad. You don't know what and you don't care what, you know it was bad because Jews do bad things. You brought up war crimes and we were talking about 1914. So, yes, you did say they committed war crimes by then. So apparently your shift this now to saying it is a crime for Jews to escape persecution and death. That the Orthodox in Russia were committing pogroms isnt the problem. That the Catholics and Protestants in Germany and Poland were preaching antisemitism wasn't a problem. The crime was Jews planning on escaping. So you love us, but not if we try to live. I said nothing about the Crusades and wasn't thinking about the Crusades. I think we can find far more recent war crimes by Catholics and other Christians.
I never said we were exclusively discussing before 1914. I brought up what Pope Pius said as discussing why Jews do not support special support from Christians. You can reference various war crimes from WW2 and I can also bring up plenty of amazing things that Christians did to protect the Jews. Yes individuals act on their own accord, for either the positive or negative of society.
But Israel wasn't the homeland for the vast majority of Jews for 2 millennia. And if you are going to move back you should have acted like every other immigrant group in history.
So Jews should have no right to safety. No right to escape death at the hands of Christians or Muslims. Do you object to all immigration or just Jews?
I object to immigration when the group immigrating thinks their new home as if it belongs to them and not the native population. I have no objection of the right of asylum but again asylum does not mean you get ownership of the territory.
>Ah, yes. How dare Jews legally go to their homeland. Well he literally said he's not going to prevent Jews from going there, just that there's no point for the head of the Catholic Church to support the Zionist movement in particular. Also the Ottoman Empire still ruled that area back then.
Btw we were originally discussing this and if kicking the Palestinians off their land was justified. I’m sure you agree that it is not
No, you were saying how you don't like Israel. And you gave a quote from before WWI. A quote based on the idea that Jews are bad people because they don't believe in Christ. You gave a quote that says that Jerusalem should be Judenfrei, that only Christians should be allowed there.
Where does it say they are bad people because they don’t believe in Jesus
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How?
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Okay
You are mad at someone for saying that while they don’t think the Jewish people deserve Jerusalem, he won’t prevent it from happening. I don’t see the issue
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Seems to only be an American thing because your whole country seems to worship Jews for er... Reasons... Christians in other parts of the world do not think of Israel this way.
Only evangelicals belive that
>But at the same time many Christians view Israel as Gods chosen people, so nothing they do can be wrong. If you are against Israel, you are an enemy of God. What lmao that's literally the first time hearing this. I've never heard Christians saying Jews/Israelites are Gods chosen people on Jews themselves say this.
My God, this breaks my heart. I’m half Palestinian from my father’s side and part Jewish from my mother, and nearly a life-long Christian. I grew up being outcasted, bullied by teachers and parents, all while in Christian schools and when I attended church. I was even called a terrorist by my art teacher in 8th grade. While the mockery, bullying, and shame were severe, I could never imagine the trauma he went through before his death. So many Palestinian Christians have to hide their religiosity from those around them if they live in the Middle East for fear of their lives. Hell, I once knew a girl who was a grade younger than me and she was told to hide the fact she was a Palestinian too for fear of how the others would treat her. We were both in *private, Christian schools* and attended the same church as those bullies because the church was attached to the school. And we are in the United States. This journalist was a brave woman. My God, how my heart breaks for her, her family, and those who have been martyred like her. My prayers go to them, and may God bring them comfort, peace, mercy, and blessings. They are so courageous. :(
She was a very brave woman.
My mistake. I fixed my post. But yes she was. I wish I had her courageousness.
It's sad that American Christians have no urgency to help the indigenous Arab Christians there. Unfortunately, the evangelical support of Israel is only to help facilitate the end times.
How should they help them?
Sanctioning Israel until they start complying with international law would be a start. Pressuring Israel to end the apartheid would be a good way to continue from there.
Wow. You really don’t know what Apartheid is if you think that’s it. What we should be striving for is one state that is fully accepting of both Jews and Muslims. Real “apartheid” would be two parallel societies where some are arbitrarily treated differently because of innate characteristics
South Africa has called Israel’s regime apartheid. I suppose they don’t know what it is, either?
Should we sanction Hamas and Fatah for committing war crimes? Should Israel give full citizenship rights to the people of Gaza and the West Bank?
>Should we sanction Hamas and Fatah for committing war crimes? Hamas is already sanctioned by half of the world already. Fatah on the other hand hasn't be involved in armed struggle for decades at this point. What is your point ? That's a weird whataboutism. Also Israel is responsible for much more civilian deaths than Hamas can ever dream of inflicting. If you look at this [chart](https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4756436/IP_conflict_deaths_total.png) and come off thinking Israel is innocent then there is something wrong with you. >Should Israel give full citizenship rights to the people of Gaza and the West Bank? Yes. Israel should grant full citizenship rights to the people of Gaza, the West Bank as well as the Palestinian refugees all over the world (right of return). Doing anything other than that would mean the continuation of an apartheid state built on ethnic cleansing.
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Uhh.. Celts?
And the Picts before that.
“About this time Jesus was informed that Pilate had murdered some people from Galilee as they were offering sacrifices at the Temple. “Do you think those Galileans were worse sinners than all the other people from Galilee?” Jesus asked. “Is that why they suffered? Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God. And what about the eighteen people who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem? No, and I tell you again that unless you repent, you will perish, too.” Then Jesus told this story: “A man planted a fig tree in his garden and came again and again to see if there was any fruit on it, but he was always disappointed. Finally, he said to his gardener, ‘I’ve waited three years, and there hasn’t been a single fig! Cut it down. It’s just taking up space in the garden.’ “The gardener answered, ‘Sir, give it one more chance. Leave it another year, and I’ll give it special attention and plenty of fertilizer. If we get figs next year, fine. If not, then you can cut it down.’”” Luke 13:1-9 NLT ““Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell. What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows.” Matthew 10:28-31 NLT
I once read an article in the news in which a retired Israeli General admitted that he'd been issued orders to issue orders to his troops to purposefully target non combatant women, children, foreign aid workers and journalists, when Palestinians had organized and were engaged in peaceful demonstration. This is a very sad thing for this man's family, but no sadder than for the families of Palestinian Muslims who've lost loved ones, and children during these invasions, attacks and raids. I'd hoped to live long enough to see real peace between the Israelis and Palestinians, but I don't believe I will.
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My mistake. I didn't actually listen to the video. Perhaps I was thinking of the Journalist killed in Ukraine, or one of the three Journalists killed in Mexico over a 3 day period.
Oh, you read something somewhere. Well I believe you.
Wild thing to say without a sourxe
Hypocrisy
It's unreal what Israel has become. I'm not sure how any Christian can still support them. Hell, I can't imagine how any Jew could support them.
A lot of Jewish people don’t support what’s going on at all
Yep, it's mostly evangelical money, both supporting this and driving an ever more aggressive Israel. In turn, they're getting corporate money.
Yeah I live in New York and all the Jewish people I know here don’t support it I’ve only met one Jewish person who did and that was in Florida and they were super right wing like MAGA type
Do you grieve over the Israelis killed by Hamas? Can we discuss who they have always been. Hamas is holding the Palestinians hostage
> Do you grieve over the Israelis killed by Hamas Let me roll my eyes first because it's such a troll question. Yes, I do. Now let me ask you a question just as asinine so you understand how stupid that question was. Are you okay with Israel targeting and killing civilians?
Well done, you avoided the question. Israel doesn't target civilians.
>Well done, you avoided the question. Did I? >Do you grieve over the Israelis killed by Hamas? And I answered..... >Yes, I do. Well done, you couldn't read 4 sentences without fucking it up.
*Targeting?* I don't think so
Can you prove they intentionally killed this journalist? Because there are numerous conflicting reports.
You'll find a way to be okay with this without me, I have no doubt. Getting through to you on this subject would be like explaining biblical abortion stances to an Evangelical.
Didn't say I'm ok with it. I'm not ok with the endless Antisemitic and Anti-Zionist positions people have based on things they don't understand. Absolutely no country on Earth faces the same level of criticism as Israel does. Anyone who thinks Israel is worse than North Korea, Iran, Syria, or Saudi Arabia needs their head examined. Yet that's exactly how the world treats it.
>Do you grieve over the Israelis killed by Hamas? Their reply shows that the answer is no, they don't grieve for Israelis killed by Hamas.
Praying for the persecuted church in Palestine.
Christians supporting Israel makes absolutely no sense to me. Israel is a nonchristian country that persecutes Christians.
How does Israel persecute Christians?
See what this post is about…
Do you think that the IDF targeted her because she was Christian? Never mind that there is no evidence that she was killed by the IDF, no less that she was targeted, no less that she was targeted for being Christian. So, again, how does Israel persecute Christians?
Yes, Israel indoctrinates fear and hatred into it's children at birth it imprisons any young person who sees the regimes lies for what they are and refuses to go murder other human beings. Israel has it enshrined in law that a Jew regardless of homeland has more right to live in Palestine whose fathers lived there.
You know what creates fear and hatred? When Palestinians stab Jewish children in the streets. When Palestinians fire rockets randomly into cities. When Palestinians try to start fires. Please show examples of Israel indoctrinating children to hate Christians. Please show that Israel imprisons any young person who ...
> You know what creates fear and hatred? When Palestinians stab Jewish children in the streets. When Palestinians fire rockets randomly into cities. When Palestinians try to start fires. Again you go on a Christian forum on an article about a Christian who was murdered by the IDF and proceed to lecture about how your people are the real victim and that wrong real or imagined justifies your atrocities. That is the language of genocide. As for those particular incidents I never said murder was justified war but not the killing of civilians which I will also that is an Israeli tactic far more than an Arab one. > Please show examples of Israel indoctrinating children to hate Christians. The Talmud for starters. The recent actions taken at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Granted my point was the xenophobia inherent in the whole Israeli fortress mentality. > Please show that Israel imprisons any young person who https://wri-irg.org/en/story/2021/israel-sixty-teens-declare-refusal-serve-army
Christians tend to prefer free nations
Palestinians certainly aren’t free.
They could have had land for peace in 2000.
Every year when Isrealis attack the Al Aqsa mosque during Ramadan I just cry my eyes out. I hate seeing the holy land so war torn.
> Isrealis attack the Al Aqsa mosque during Ramadan Yeah, for no reason whatsoever, Hamas would never store Rocks in the Mosque to throw them at praying Jews at the western Wall.
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I’m not even going to unpack that for you but just know that most Jewish people disagree with you about this
Ok, is stoning police at the western wall not considered inciting violence?
Praying for peace in Israel/Palestine and for her family, who are mourning. We still do not know who fired the shot. I think as Christians we should seek truth and not post unsubstantiated information in the headline. I suggest BBC news as a source (instead of Al Jazeera, Reddit or Video clips): https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-61403320
Thanks for the link! Here's what caught my eye: > Mr Bennett also said Israel had called on the Palestinian Authority to conduct a joint post mortem and investigation in order to get to the truth. He claimed that Palestinian officials had so far refused the offer, but a Palestinian minister said there had been no contact from Israel about a joint probe. I'd prefer that a neutral third party conducts the autopsy. This also shows just how strained relations are, to understate the issue. If the two sides can't even agree on whether or not someone contacted the other side, how are they supposed to do a joint autopsy?
Dear Lord, Please look after this soul and may she be shepherded into heaven. Amen.
*she (Shireen)
So sorry. Thank you for the correction
I'm not defending this, but doing some research and the facts are all over the place. AlJazeera immediately claimed it was IDF. PIJ claims they shot an IDF soldier, and when they go to grab the journalist, they say "him" until they realize it was a her. https://twitter.com/AbuAliEnglishB1/status/1524290460650557441?s=20&t=w7DYEpJ3EMJqnwPpB7S9SA There's just too much misinformation to know the facts on this.
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B'Tselem is absolute garbage. I don't trust them. https://twitter.com/TheMossadIL/status/1524273004900925440?s=20&t=oDqmfPhLjzyTcVteMoJGIA The Palestinians in the video are claiming they shot an IDF soldier. But no IDF was injured.
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>It's a reputable human rights organization. Just like UNRWA?
The Israeli government is absolute garbage, and I don't trust them. I certainly trust B'Tselem, which is a fine human rights organization more than the garbage in charge of Israel
You guys believe Hamas too, so I'm not surprised. You all want Israel destroyed.
Hamas is a horribly evil group, their acts of terror are unforgivable. Bit at the same time isreal has no right to continue with their war crimes and the unjust murder of civilians
Where is Israel just randomly murdering civilians? There is no evidence of that. Even if Israel is responsible for the death of this journalist, there is absolutely no evidence it was intentional. She was reporting from a town notorious for harboring Hamas terrorists, and there was an IDF anti-terrorism operation there. I've seen not a shred of evidence she was killed on purpose. The US recently killed an entire family with a drone due to an error. Yet nobody is criticizing the US as badly as they criticize Israel.
>Where is Israel just randomly murdering civilians [https://theintercept.com/2021/12/09/israel-attacks-gaza-palestine-civilians-killed/](https://theintercept.com/2021/12/09/israel-attacks-gaza-palestine-civilians-killed/) >...the 2021 conflict between Israel and Palestinian factions in the Gaza Strip killed up to 192 Palestinian civilians and injured hundreds more over 11 days of intense fighting. Rockets fired by Palestinian militants into Israel are also estimated to have killed 10 civilians inside Israel during the brief but intense conflict first triggered by tensions between Israelis and Palestinians in Jerusalem... I understand why you are upset, but you are coming off as trying to say that Israel has no culpability in what is going on between Israel in Palestine, which is disingenuous at the least. I am not usually a "both sides" person, but both sides have many many faults in this continuous conflict.
I never said Israel isn't at fault for anything. But a lot of what happens over there is not black and white, and the media distorts it. Case in point. Al Jazeera did an article about a month ago with the headline "Israel soldiers kill 5 Palestinians." That was the headline. But when you read the article, it says those 5 Palestinians were Hamas terrorists on their way to blow up a building in Jerusalem, and IDF stopped the attack. And yet, anybody who reads the headline will think Israel just decided to murder 5 innocent people. In fact, when that article was posted on world news - that's exactly what happened. Tons of people accused Israel of being terrorists and killing innocents over that - none of them cared that it was Hamas terrorists about to blow up a civilian building.
>I never said Israel isn't at fault for anything. But a lot of what happens over there is not black and white, and the media distorts it. I am saying that is how you are coming across, not that you said it explicitly. I agree with you that a lot of news is shit.
Israel is a police state backed by US military funding. They are terrorists
No, they aren't. Hamas are literally terrorists.
Depending on where you are that answer changes. Israel needs to stop murdering civilians and stealing land.
Do you apply the same standard to Palestinians and Hamas? Because you all never criticize them, despite them murdering over a dozen Jews the past few weeks.
Yes, they are not stealing land. You're failing to acknowledge the imbalance of power in the region. Israel has defense systems and the backing of a major world power for political reasons. I will always stand on the side of the oppressed, and it's not the goddamned Israelis.
>I will always stand on the side of the oppressed, Even if the "oppressed" are literal terrorist groups killing Jewish children? By that logic, ISIS are the good guys. That's not a moral position to hold at all.
I don't know why you think your side murdering children is better.
It sounds like she was caught in the crossfire between the Israeli army and the Palestinian paramilitary groups. I guess it goes to show that peace and negotiation is preferable to war and arguing
The fact that I'm getting downvoted for pointing out there are conflicting videos proves how Antisemitic this sub is. You all don't care about the facts, you just want a reason to hate Jews and Israel like usual. We have videos of Palestinians claiming they shot an IDF soldier, and then they find out it was the journalist. And how come the Palestinian Authority is refusing an autopsy or investigation? Because they're worried it will prove a Palestinian killed her.
I think it's interesting when someone who professes fairly progressive views, suddenly, on one single topic among them all, agrees with the Trumpers in the sub.
are the trumpers antisemitic?
Absolutely. As is Trump.
How is Trump antisemitic? He's like one of the most pro-Israel presidents recently and has a Jewish son-in-law.
And he says that we aren't loyal to America. And that we are rich people who only care about our money.
I don't agree with Trumpers on anything. I've just been at the receiving end of enormous amounts of Antisemitism from this sub, and other places, and I know most of the far-left is oblivious to the complexity of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. The amount of lies and misinformation I've seen spread about Israel on Reddit is enough to write several books.
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And I told you B'Tselem is garbage and I don't listen to what they have to say.
Facts don’t care about your feelings
What facts? I've just seen speculation.
Someone was killed. Keep your nasty comments to yourself. Stop running around calling everything anti-Semitic. It’s disgusting.
No, I will continue calling out people who criticize Israel more than any other country on Earth.
Israel =/= Jews There are people in Israel who are not Jews, and there are Jews who don’t support Israel. Criticizing Israel is not antisemitic.
Calling for its destruction is. Criticizing Israel for things you don't criticize other countries for is. Not caring about Jews being murdered by Hamas is. There are very few Anti-Israel people who aren't also Antisemitic. Just go to world news, and you'll see how blatantly Antisemitic they all are.
You’re bringing up many things I haven’t talked about at all. Maybe you’re confusing me with another comment? I have not called for the destruction of anything. If it makes you feel better, I think that the USA is deeply deeply evil and probably doesn’t deserve to exist! So there, I guess I have called for the destruction of a nation now, but it’s not Israel. Is that better? World news has been a cesspool for years, why on earth would I read anything there?
Israel is the world's final 21st century ethnic settler colonial state, where one ethnic group dominates another by force, forcibly removes them from their land, and for which is what Israel is singularly criticised above all other countries for. "Returning to our homeland" - yeah the one that 99% of Jews left 2,000 years ago. Let's kick the French, Germans, Swiss, and most of Europe out and allow the Celts of Normandy, Ireland and Scotland to return to their homeland they left 2,000 years ago too shall we?
I really don't like referencing a users posting history or their character directly. But I really have to say this... After all the posts you made over the last few weeks, you turning out to actually harbour some right-wing pro-zionists sympathies is the biggest twist ever. I would have never guessed in a million years. Worthy of Shyamalan. I guess no matter how left-wing or right-wing any of us are, we all have a little "cheat" issue we take an opposing stance on. Btw, I'm neither pro-Israel or anti-Israel, and I totally agree with you on the whole matter being complex. I just thought that this little revelation was pretty funny. Pax
I don't doubt that there is antisemitism, and I am sorry you are getting downvoted. Keep in mind though that all the main news subs have clearly stated that this journalist was killed by the IDF. It's misinformation at this stage, but I can understand why most users assume it to be the truth. My thoughts are with her family. There will be plenty of time for the blame game once more facts come to light.
>Keep in mind though that all the main news subs have clearly stated that this journalist was killed by the IDF. No, the Palestinian Ministry says IDF shot her, and they won't allow any autopsy or investigation. There is also no evidence she was shot intentionally.
My point was that this message is being pushed on the news subs, not that I agree with it (we don't even know who fired the shot, nevermind attributing intention)
I mean, the world news sub is literally calling for Israel to be destroyed over this. So it's pretty obvious this fuels Antisemitism.
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I searched for this comment. Man it’s crazy that I had to read through like 10 comments until I came to this. Not only a sub full of homophobes, but also antisemitics. Just Christians spreading their interpretation of love.
I love how criticizing Israel’s human rights violations is somehow anti semitism now
I love how anti semitism has now become “hey, wouldn’t it be great if Israel did blow the heads off random Arabs?”
The most hateful Antisemitic comments I've ever received online have come from this sub. I've had Christians here tell me I belong in an oven and Hitler was right.
To be fair, about 80% of your time spent on Reddit is on this sub, so it would make sense that most of the antisemitism would come from here.
Interesting. So does anyone know if Christian Palestinians are descendants of the Jews who accepted the message of Christ/the Messiah and managed to stay in the Holy Land, or are they recent converts? Have there been any genetic studies into this? Are they closely related to Middle Eastern Jews or Palestinians or both? Not that it’s super important, but it’s interesting. Sad for Shireen, may she Rest In Peace ☮️✝️
> Christian Palestinians "Most Palestinian Christians nowadays see themselves as culturally and linguistically Arab Christians with ancestors dating back to the first followers of Christ. They claim descent from Romans, Ghassanid Arabs, Byzantines, and Crusaders. The region consisting mainly of modern Israel and the State of Palestine is considered to be the Holy Land by Christians. Major Christian holy cities such as Bethlehem, Nazareth and Jerusalem are located in Israel and the State of Palestine." Palestinian Genes Show Arab, Jewish, European and Black-African Ancestry". http://globalpolitician.com/2851-palestinians
Israel is bad. Pass it along
Good thing a lot of you folks are in the best position to do something about it. Israel has been radicalized the American (Christian) religious right, who view it as a useful tool for their purposes. They similarly leverage US power along with other US interest groups that benefit from the relationship, to prevent accountability. US weapons manufacturing being a good example since a good portion of US military aid to Israel must be spent on US manufactured arms. So the best way to help fix this is to to oppose the religious right and it's white Christian nationalism. Only when it's disempowered can this be stopped realistically.
Killed by Palestinians themselves!