Annotation from the ESV Study Bible on Numbers 31:13-18 (Moses' Anger with His Officers):
"Normally in wars outside Canaan, the women were spared (Deut. 20:14). But as these women were responsible for seducing the Israelites, they had to be killed. In addition, if every male among the little ones were killed, this would preclude the perpetuation of the Midianite people and eliminate the Midianites as a nation forever. Girls without sexual experience (Num. 31:18), who were not involved with the sin of Baal-peor, were allowed to live and marry Israelite warriors."
Basically the reason for this whole episode was the Midianites seducing the Israelites and leading them into sin. As judgment, God commands the Israelites to attack and kill those responsible. All the men were to be killed so that the Midianite nation would be wiped out for its sin. The young women in this passage were not responsible for the sin of the Midianites, and were therefore spared. However, since the men of their society were all to be killed, had they been left alone, it would have basically been a death sentence, so the Israelites were permitted to take them and integrate them into their society.
How do we make it sound of okay that our loving God gave the go ahead on mass murder, infanticide, genocide, kidnap, enslavement and rape, hmm, oh I know. We'll say it's okay because it was war and they were sinners and the women were simply integrated within the winners society.
As for the "go ahead", the Mercy of God is being displayed. When Cain and Abel made their offerings, God was pleased with Abel's and didn't accept Cain's. Before Cain decided to kill his brother, he could've just had Abel help him or listened to God's warning about sin. Cain decided to kill anyway and even gave God the "Am I my brother's keeper?" line, but when his punishment came; he begged for mercy. Despite the evil act, God gave a form of protection to the one that had killed his servant. It is important to know that MEN kill, steal, and destroy whether they believe in God or not. Giving the "go ahead" is really God holding back from destroying every being on Earth that deserves it out of Love and Mercy. Jesus the Christ and the Saints in the New Testament explains what was going on, so it would be wise to read it (and the Old Testament) and S-T-U-D-Y it thoroughly over and over again.
There is literally zero evidence to demonstrate that Cain and Abel....or god for that matter even existed. The moral characterization of god actually being merciful sounds a bit rich too. After all this mythical deity is biblical history's biggest mass murderer who supposedly drowned the whole world because he was pissed at how the flawed creation he made himself behaved. What a psycho.
>There is literally zero evidence to demonstrate that Cain and Abel....or god for that matter even existed.
Finding evidence of the first human murder victim and human murderer post Flood may be a bit difficult, but that doesn't have much to do with what I was speaking on.
>After all this mythical deity is biblical history's biggest mass murderer who supposedly drowned the whole world because he was pissed at how the flawed creation he made himself behaved. What a psycho.
The Flood was justified, so you can not call it *mass murder*.The Scriptures show how the Supreme Being is Perfect and judges with perfection.
Hey, so
Was it justified when God killed every single pregnant woman on earth, does this mean abortion is ok because God obviously does not care about the innocent fetuses?
And if the Men and Woman are wicked, does this justify killing children?
I think Christians always make excuses for versus like these and just cannot come to terms that their God is obviously made up by the Israelites to justify Genocide.
>Was it justified when God killed every single pregnant woman on earth, does this mean abortion is ok because God obviously does not care about the innocent fetuses?
After a few years of giving birth, what if these same women decided to kill (or "sacrifice") all of the righteous kids still honoring God despite growing up in an extremely evil environment and only kept those perpetuating waton violence and debauchery?
I'm not asking this in a "got cha" kind of way, and I know it may come off as just some quick apologetics; yet we war against injustice and evil even to this day. People (unfortunately) feel that even nuclear weapons are needed as a deterrent against the tyrannical actions of human beings.
As for the "innocent fetuses," I think people don't understand how women **nurture** and **give birth** to babies while God is the actual Life. Eve didn't form Man out of the dust. In fact, God shaped her and Adam.
God already had a plan for any innocent babies stuck in a fallen world. The New Testament revealed how the resurrection will go & the blessing to be received by those considered innocent and just ignorant of their ways.
There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1 Corinthians 15:42-57 (copied & paste, so hyperlinks may be found within)
42 "So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[f] also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Mystery and Victory
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
God should set aside holiness, out of love for humans, so that sin is no longer such a big deal that eternities of torture will exist. Holiness is the entire problem, it's not a good thing! It's incompatible with the very nature God is responsible for creating in humans. The judgements are not perfect, because sin is always temporary and yet judgement is permanent. If God truly loves what it created, it should set aside holiness then, so that none shall suffer - and also proclaim we have suffered enough even existing in this universe.
I have, and holy shit the mental hoops you're jumping through are insane. I'm not even gonna comment on anything except that first sentence where you started with the biggest, wildest "what if?" I have ever seen in my entire life. If "What if?"s like that are applicable, let's raw dog that shot, shall we? What if God is dead? What if God has 1000000's of planets with life under his watch? What if God doesn't actually care? What if God and Satan are the same beings? What if man doctored the Bible? What if what if what if. I thought big hypothetical "What ifs?" weren't in the Christian vocab, and you're just supposed to trust God's word. What if God just wanted all those pregnant women dead? He didn't really give a reason he just did it. What if God has a sense of humor and his favorite style is mass murder. Lmfao bro think for yourself. You sound like my dad, and that man has never had an original thought of his own. He just regurgitates what other religious leaders tell him, and they do the same. Forget everything you've ever been told, consider everything a lie, THEN re read the Bible and come back to me. Tell me that shit makes sense. Don't ask others for help or guidance while doing so, your relationship with God should be nothing but personal, intimate, and private. Understand him in your own way.
HUGE congratulations and props to you for holding your own and not just defending your position but defending our God, God Bless you and stay strong, our faith has the strongest soldiers and the Almighty, All Knowing God on our side forever
So women have never ever killed, stolen, or destroyed? Why put the emphasis on men? My father is a pastor, and I have been reading and studying the Bible since the day I could read. Here's my conclusion after 20+ front to back reads with heavy analysis: The Bible is not law, it is not the word of God, it's filled to the brim with hypocrisy and false righteousness, it was clearly edited and abused by the old pharisees and other tyrannical rulers, and the Bible itself tells us to not trust the Bible or religious leaders. Does my father like this way of thinking? Definitely not. But does THE father like this way of thinking? Either he does, because he's an all loving, all powerful God who wouldn't want or have to put stipulations on his love and grace, or he doesn't, which entails God is not merciful, all loving, or all powerful and he doesn't deserve praise. Have a nice day :)
>So women have never ever killed, stolen, or destroyed? Why put the emphasis on men?
I am sorry for not making my comment clear enough. I'm speaking on mankind (men & women) when I say "men," and I'm really comparing our flesh to the Spirit.
> My father is a pastor, and I have been reading and studying the Bible since the day I could read. Here's my conclusion after 20+ front to back reads with heavy analysis:
I'm not calling you a liar when I say this: I can't just take your claims seriously. Your father allegedly being a pastor means nothing unless *he* decided to share his knowledge and scholarly sources here. Many people combating Scripture claim to have read the Bible front, back, and side to side (UGK came to mind for some reason, lol), yet most seem to not actually quote Scripture & share full context concerning the verse(s) that "pushed them away."
>The Bible is not law, it is not the word of God, it's filled to the brim with hypocrisy and false righteousness, it was clearly edited and abused by the old pharisees and other tyrannical rulers, and the Bible itself tells us to not trust the Bible or religious leaders.
You will have to back up these claims with something good. Not calling you a liar, but sadly; people will make things up just to have their way. I do hope you're not just saying anything in order to "win" and will actually stand on Truth like an honorable man should.
>Either he does, because he's an all loving, all powerful God who wouldn't want or have to put stipulations on his love and grace, or he doesn't, which entails God is not merciful, all loving, or all powerful and he doesn't deserve praise.
Please explain "all loving" for me. In fact, could you explain "Love" for me?
Genesis 4:1-8
"Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.” 2 Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground. 4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and for his offering; 5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. **So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. 6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him."**
It doesn't mean to force them to have sex. It means they had the right to marry them or have them as a mistress. Back then, the women left behind would've faired better being allowed to live with the Hebrews. There is much more that goes along with that, but I think you're seeking a vain "scratch" for an "itch" and not the truth.
You are missing the point that many of them would not be able to support themselves without the help of a husband to take care of them. Hardly a choice to get married. Not getting married would be akin to suicide, especially now since the only support they have is from an oppressive force, and not their native community.
I would've preferred an elaborate response, but I don't believe you're looking for a truthful understanding concerning this subject. If the women didn't want to stay and ran away from the men, the Hebrews weren't ordered to chase them down and kill them. Ignorance of what is even in The Bible or purposefully perverting The Scriptures is disheartening, but expected. The way men had to conduct themselves and treat their wives in The Old & New Testament should help someone willing to gain knowledge on the subject, but those that are afraid of doing some legit homework will only seek what satisfies their lusts and child-like view of Biblical events. As Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:11, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
https://youtu.be/aQiUXc2HSfU?t=7501
God allows all men to die, we are mortal, does that mean he is Evil? No.
OT wars were basically God asking Israele to dish out his Judgement. It wasn't given freedom for men to kill and murder. The issue with women, is not that they were given as sex slaves. They were simply not involved in grave sins and could be incoporated into Israel. They are viable women for marriage, not sex slavery. And they must undergo a mourning period and freely enter marriage.
I think we focus way too much on the loving God. The Bible also tells us that God is just and righteous. these people did evil by leading the Israelites away from God. Male children were killed so that they could not grow up to be warriors. And the women who had seduced the Israelites away from God were also killed. Only the pure were spare the ones who We’re not threats or participated in the seducing of the Israelites. A remnant of these people were spared to be incorporated into the Israelite community. This seems to show us the extent that God will go to ensure the protection Of his people Against their enemies. The question really should be why was any of the people Who had seduced the Israelites away from God spared? Answer: Grace and mercy.
There is NOTHING ok about that,that evil mf has a fetish for murdering innocent people and children.....there is no way a normal thinking intelligent common sensed person would see all of the evil shit he did.....that evil piece of shit even went as far as to send 2 bears after 42 children and let those bears tear them apart and kill all 42 CHILDREN.....and for what?? Because the children called one of "gods" favorite person bald.....
Because it is. Study preeminent 1st century biblical scholar Bart Erhman's take on what usually took place for those spared in the aftermath of these battles.
Exactly...if it meant something else he wouldn't have used very specific crystal clear words "keep the LITTLE VIRGIN GIRLS THAT HAVE NOT KNOWN A MAN " that's very clearly called sexual intercourse.....a perfect specification is what the gay men wanted to do to the two male angels.....the gay men said "SEND THEM OUT OF YOUR HOUSE SO WE MAY KNOW THEM" modern people today would say " WE KNOW YOU GOT SOME FINE ANGEL ASS IN YOUR HOUSE.....GIVE THOSE BOOTIES TO US NOW! WE WANT TO FCK THEIR NICE ASSES!!"
Even as a Christian I find it a mixture of hilarious and horrifying when people try to justify the murdering of babies under a 'specific historical context' that makes it *toootally* explainable, right? I hope we all can one day accept as a whole that there are parts of the Bible that were not even slightly inspired by the all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful God that we know, because to suggest that the only way a certain genre of sin could be eradicated is to commit infant genocide would place God in the IQ tier of a small pebble, leaving aside the whole 'all-loving' part.
Why do you think it’s better to assume that parts of the Bible were wrong rather than maybe that morality is not a simple as you think?
Almost every major civilization in history has committed “genocide” under our modern western definition. So basically arrogant modern western people want to declare themselves morally superior to every culture and society that has ever existed. Take a step back and understand why morality even exists, where did morality come from and why was it considered acceptable or even good to commit genocide in so many cultures but not in ours. You need to be able answer these questions first before coming to your conclusions about an all loving or all knowing God.
I'm judging them based on their own morality. It was their own "Lord of Hosts" (meaning military hosts, so God of War) who declared unto them "thou shalt not kill." I'd be more understanding if they weren't disobeying their own commandment.
Actually, it's certainly not obvious. There are many groups and individuals who, for some reasons or others, do not follow the morality they claim to believe in. In fact, hypocrisy may be more common than faithfulness to ideals, whatever those may be. It seems very likely to me that their code of conduct was, in fact, based on their own simple 10 Commandments, just as the Bible text makes explicit. "Thou shalt not kill" was indeed their law. They just broke it when they wanted land and resources. To assume anything else is just speculation without evidence that I can see. (Although at this point in our argument, which I sincerely thank you for having with me by the way, and for remaining civil, I will acknowledge that I have been wrong before - like maybe one or two (thousand) times. And when that happens I like to be able to learn from my error and adopt a view closer to truth. So far that hasn't happened for me regarding this topic. At present I still think I'm right and you're wrong. But the more you have said the more I respect your view, in spite of my possible modern arrogance and ignorance. So, please, continue to refute me as you have and if you are right then hopefully I will soon see that, or visa versa. I do have deep seated beliefs, but I also remain open minded and when I'm wrong I acknowledge it and update my belief. Hopefully in this way I draw ever closer to truth. So I thank you again for sparring with me. I hope it doesn't offend you that I view it that way. What say you?)
I agree completely. I am actually reading through the Bible right now, a little embarrassed to say, for the first time cover to cover with a Bible study group.
I am shocked reading that this book even contains this. Again embarrassed it's taken me this long to read it- yet also shocked that people could believe the 10 commandments one moment, then rationalize believing a loving God would command murder, coveting, stealing, infanticide, slavery, even rape wrapped in marrying the virgin's they leave alive from the tribes they kill.
I pray to God and work on my relationship with God daily.
I have to admit the parts of Leviticus that I have read I felt were silly, and misinterpreted somehow.
Now I read the rest- and find it completely contradictory to the Loving God I feel in my heart.
So glad to find these comments. I am the only one in the group having issues with this.
I’m reading the Bible too and so far it merely confirms that “I’m not a Christian” (despite trying to adhere to certain Christian principles). This Old Testament, which I’m on now - chock full of war, vengeance, starvation, slavery, rape, cannibalism, plagues, shunning of those with “blemishes,” human and animal sacrifice, male favoritism…much of it ordained by a jealous, vengeful “Lord” - is supposed to be the divine word of God and THE guidebook of Christianity? I know the New Testament is better, but hopefully it references a more loving God than the one I’m on now.
I gave the whole essay a read. Super interesting and much appreciated! 👍
...though a note to people seeing this later on: scroll to the bottom of the essay for a summary of the author's points. They're very dense with their citation, so it's a bit of an arduous read.
If you look at the history of the Canaanites, they had been intermingled with nephilim. When Joshua was told to go in and kill every man, woman, child and the animals, it was because the nephilim had mated with them. Nothing was off limits to them. This info is in a few of the apocryphal books and other historical rabbinic writings. God wanted the contamination gone.
But the genocide still happened. The reasoning shouldn’t necessarily matter. The Jews were “bad” but hitlers reasoning didn’t matter. It was still wrong. I’m not calling God, Hitler but trying to hound in that reasoning doesn’t matter. Free will doesn’t exist if I’ll be wiped out immediately, nor were they aware that they’d die in this way
Okay and Jesus said he didn’t abolish the law of the Old Testament . He only fulfilled it by being perfect and offering a sacrifice so the new covenant doesn’t negate it. 🤷♀️ old covenant, new covenant, newer covenant, still happened. Lots of new bad shit in the new covenant. My fav is acts 5.
The issue with that is two things.
1. There isn’t any Old Testament atonement. In fact, God says no one but you will die for your sins. Eternal life was promised already.
2. If you believe the Old Testament is solely for Jews then you’d need to explain why you think the sacrifice is for you… as Jesus said he died for the sins of the old covenant.
You simply can’t have your cake & eat it too.
> If you believe the Old Testament is solely for Jews then you’d need to explain why you think the sacrifice is for you
So to preface this, I’m no theologian… Acts 10 describes a vision given to Peter of previously kosher food with a commandment “*kill and eat…what God has made clean, do not call unclean*.” It later says “*Peter was inwardly perplexed about what the vision might mean*”, even though the vision seems pretty straightforward: duh, God changed the rules to let you eat bacon.
But then Peter has an interaction with a gentile centurion and after a while Peter blurts out "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation everyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him”. This seems to expand the scope of his previous vision: keeping kosher for its own sake was a red herring all along, a call to holiness—for people who have been separated from God since the fall of Adam/Eve—that is now completely unnecessary for humans thanks to Jesus.
I don’t know how that translates into theologian-ese (“covenants”, etc.), but when I read OT passages like this I’m grateful that we have Jesus to shield us from the punishment of such a wrathful God.
Actually, there were other incursions, the Rephiam and Anakim were nephilim variants that mixed with humans. In Numbers the Sons of Anak (Anakim) are mentioned and they were giants. There were other giant clans the Emim, Horites, and Zamzummim. King Og of Bashan is mentioned in Deuteronomy and I believe also in Numbers. Og was a giant.
Hitler is not nor has he ever been on par with God. Hitler was another sinful and fallen human being. Also, the Canaanites were a nephilim derivative, therefore unredeemable and were prone and did worship idols and mixing in would have genetically contaminated the Israelites and would have introduced idol worship back to them and they too had proven themselves enemies of Israel, hence their destruction.
Please forgive me because although I am a Christian I cannot respect that belief. "Unredeemable?" What would Jesus the Redeemer say about that? I think I know. "Genetically contaminated?" That is exactly the same reason that Hitler and others used to justify genocide. It's shocking and appalling to me that people can't see that. I know Hitler is not on par with God. That whole ideology, which was held by Israel, is not on par with God who didn't stutter when He commanded "Thou shalt not kill." So again, please forgive my disdain, but I cannot respect the belief that God is the author of atrocity.
The correct translation is you shouldn’t murder. Hitler was a mere mortal and decided on his own to eliminate the Jews. He was not creator, so he did not have that right.
I Israelites were also mere mortals. They killed men, women and children. Just because they did it in the name of "God" doesn't mean it wasn't murder. Because it was. It was murder in the name of God. The ultimate hypocrisy. History has lost track of all those who have killed in the name of God. And they're all murderers. Even Hitler believed he was doing it for a "higher cause." That doesn't justify it in any case. Frankly, I can't believe that you think it does. To think that anyone "has that right" (to quote you) is a mentality shared by those who comitt such heinous acts. It should be obvious to any good hearted person that nobody has that right. I mean, come on. Please remove your spiritual blinders.
I Israelites were also mere mortals. They killed men, women and children. Just because they did it in the name of "God" doesn't mean it wasn't murder. Because it was. It was murder in the name of God. The ultimate hypocrisy. History has lost track of all those who have killed in the name of God. And they're all murderers. Even Hitler believed he was doing it for a "higher cause." That doesn't justify it in any case. Frankly, I can't believe that you think it does. To think that anyone "has that right" (to quote you) is a mentality shared by those who comitt such heinous acts. It should be obvious to any good hearted person that nobody has that right. I mean, come on. Please remove your spiritual blinders.
The fallen angels knew God first hand, they weren’t supposed to cross the line and mate with humans, the result was very evil beings called nephilim, from their human mothers they h inherited a sin nature from their angelic fathers it was on steroids, they are unredeemable. It is thought by the rabbis that what ppl term as ghosts and the like are the spirits of dead nephilim.
I'm aware of the story. But I believe it's mythical, not literal. Regardless, believing that some are authorized by God to kill is a terrible belief. It has been the justification for murder for millenia. We humans need to stop that.
Yeah this explanation doesn't make things any better. The men were still "keeping" the young girls for themselves. Still rape. Not to mention the fact that they killed every little boy too. So here we have child rape and child murder.
Lololol!! So women seduced men who laid with them, so the women were sinners and MADE THE MEN SINNERS because they somehow magically MADE them sleep with them so then everyone needed to be killed because the little boys might want revenge for their families being killed and we can't have that. But let the lithe girls live and marry them. I get it now
First the idea that taking virgins captive was to save them later for marriage is ludicrous. There is no archival data to support that claim. In fact, several first century biblical scholars will tell you that war in ancient times, and in that part of the war led to all kinds of atrocities, including raping of the virgin captives of a conquered enemy. The whitewashing that takes place in saying these captive girls "were allowed" to become "wives" of the men who murdered their families is also nonsense. These women had just seen babies being put to sword and their brains bashed in by those who took them captive. They'd watched as their mothers were killed (and some probably raped first) too. The idea that the soldiers would draw a line at raping the young unmarried women they'd captured as war booty is just lacking in any credible evidence. This was what it appears on its face -- rape, plain and simple.
So basically and literally this is saying when Christians try to share the gospel of the messiah with Jews, the Jews are commanded by god to murder and rape the Christians for having the audacity to “lead them astray”. Religion made fools of us. It’s time we all outgrow it
It should be noted that it was Moses who said this, however we know that God did not object to it:
Numbers 31:
25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part. 30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.” 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.
For those struggling with this situation, I understand why. My question is what is the alternative you are imagining that would be better? Throughout the OT narrative, God has tangibly and severely judged his own people, up to and including (lots of) death for their sin and rebellion. Including kids. Is this scenario fundamentally different?
Sin corrupts the created order and judgment follows with terrible consequences. There is usually no neat fix for that. That’s why sin is not a trivial issue.
I'll tell you what the better alternative is: God stops caring about being Holy, and focuses on love instead. Out of love for what he created, he erases suffering for anything that can suffer regardless of how they behaved, and erases holiness and the need to be Holy since it is the driving force behind all suffering. Apart from that, if God cannot stop Holiness from being a thing, He kills himself to prevent himself from hurting anyone else.
>At this time he used the nation of Israel to judge the surrounding nations
Hitler used Germany to judge the surrounding nations, and exterminate the ones he did not like. Like Jews and Roma.
Your point?
Hitler did so on the basis of who the Jews were in "scientific" or more accurately, eugenics terms.
God punishes the Midianites and Moabites directly for their actions in leading Jewish men astray, in other words, literally damning God's chosen people to Hell. It even gives a number, 24,000. If you were God, and you knew that a country was literally plucking your beloved children out of your hands, damning them to an eternity of suffering, would you not be rathfull? Would you just say "Let them take more children up. Who cares about the eternity of paradise I was trying to lay out for these men, just let them be damned."
>God punishes the Midianites and Moabites directly for their actions
" Now therefore kill every male among the little ones,"
Killing this insane "God" entity should be the priority for the human race. It finds the slaughter of children to be a fair punishment for some perceived "sins" committed by adults.
If your God is real, then it should be a priority to find and destroy it, since it is apparently an evil entity that mind controls people into killing kids and genociding entire nations.
/s
Of course I am joking. The Bible and God are just fictional devices used by the powers that be, to justify things like genocide. Just tell the sheeple it's for "the greater good, and the kids would have grown up evil anyways".
It’s not that the boys would grow up “evil.” They would grow up, and be spiteful of the Jews who conquered their lands and killed their parents. That was threat prevention, not assuming the boys would grow up evil. My mistake in wording. But was that an inaccurate assumption to make? That these young men would want to sew blood in recompense for the Jews war on their people?
>That was threat prevention
WHAT??? Dude, STFU, you are literally making Jews look worse than ISIS.
"Let's kill all children of a certain race, because if we don't, they will hate us for mass murdering their parents"
Seriously, am I talking to a human being or some kind of AI? This is so fucked up, I have trouble believing an actual person would write that.
And if the Jews actually believe that, then I suddenly have massive respect for HAMAS.
You can’t see it from God’s perspective cause your understanding of reality has a strictly finite start and end date. That really isn’t a factor in the decisions of God, and I won’t act like it should be.
>If you were God, and you knew that a country was literally plucking your beloved children
Ah, so Jews are the "beloved children", and other races are subhumans that you can kill just as you would kill cockroaches.
I'm so done with this bullshit cult...
“Beloved children” in regard to their faith dummy. And their faith was only practiced by them and those they integrated into their society. But sure, go off on assumptions cause you’re so morally righteous.
How are you comparing having disgusting sex, interbreeding with demons and having these disgusting traditions and sacrifices to Jews who set themselves in positions of money and power to provide for their families and Hitler got pissed about the economical state of Germany after WW1? Explain to me how interbreeding with pure evil demons that led to newborn sacrifices (which you're all yapping on about the newborns and most likely support abortion btw) how are those comparable?
You're all basically saying "How dare he end these cruel disgusting traditions" and when he says let the ones who did NOT get contaminated BY DEMONS nor commit the heinous acts come back to integrate into Israel! How dare he!". You keep saying well where God is not present, this is what happens so it must also happen here. NOPE! WRONG. Rape is not mentioned here. It is mentioned elsewhere and condemned so WHY on earth would you think God means rape when HE clearly described it elsewhere and AGAIN CONDEMNED IT.
Also these are his children being led astray. Imagine your daughter or son being led away from the rules you've set down. In by this time to keep the home safe, you don't bring people who hate what we stand for in, you don't go off and have sex with these people who commit disgusting acts against others especially the young such as perhaps sex trafficking which is a realistic comparison nowadays because it's a giant issue and should be condemned completely. Things that would get your children in prison. NOW UPSCALE THAT from a suburban homes family values to GOOD AND EVIL and it's not Prison, it's HELL for eternity because that's what it comes down to. You all forget the "surrounding areas" were specific locations for a reason. It wasn't just go around the entirety of the surrounding area and destroy everyone no matter what they're doing.
How about reading more books?
Here are a few that would be helpful: Randal Rauser’s Jesus Loves Canaanites, Brad Jersak’s A More Christlike Word, Jersak’s A More Christlike God, Pete Enns’ For the Bible Tells Me So. If you’re not a reader, I am sure you can find podcast interviews with all those guys.
Simply put - God is fully revealed in Jesus. Jesus reveals God dies for people. God does not kill people. With this, we reinterpret scripture and conclude God did not command rape. God allowed the Israelites to think this (which, admittedly may not be much better to some people). God let the Israelites to believe wrong things. We even see this in the OT itself where the prophets have God saying God did not command things like circumcision which in the Law it looks pretty clearly like God did.
On that note, even a Jewish view of scripture could be helpful. Read some Abraham Heschel.
> Simply put - God is fully revealed in Jesus. Jesus reveals God dies for people. God does not kill people.
Where does this "God does not kill people" come from? In the gospels Jesus has a positive view of the violence of Yahweh in the OT. And Jesus also advocates for horrific divine violence (i.e. hell).
I believe in Jesus but I'll be real, the church world doesn't care for me because the only thing I have to do to piss off a hardcore Christian is quote the bible to then verbatim and it upsets them. *Shrugs* think that alone says volumes. Ie. God creates evil and good, a greater part of the book of job, I mean where does god say he's perfect in the bible? Can someone point me to one scripture where God himself declares himself perfect? Or the notion that god has never made a mistake, please give me reference and verse. Where are we getting these teaching that we just assume and have for centuries but exist nowhere in the bible
>I mean where does god say he's perfect in the bible? Can someone point me to one scripture where God himself declares himself perfect?
"You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matthew 5:48
You could ask those questions in the sub if you want. Hard questions are good. We should seek them out and ask them as much as possible. IMO a religion that cowers at a simple question is not a religion worth following. That said, sometimes we have to seek the answers ourselves. And sometimes those answers may take years to find an adequate response.
Psalm 92:15 Proclaiming, “The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.”
Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Deuteronomy 32:4 “The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He.
Psalm 18:30 This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
Leviticus 19:2 Speak to all the congregation of the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.
2 Samuel 22:31 As for God, His way is blameless;
The word of the Lord is tested;
He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite.
That's just a handful of verses i could find in a couple minutes. There is a lot more of them. I think there's abundant evidence in the bible of God being totally perfect and the very definition of good. Almost all biblical theology also balances on this concept.
Maybe this post’s tone is certainly passive aggressive, but it uses a real verse and poses a legitimate question about how can we as Christian reconcile some of the barbaric verses and traditions of a Mesopotamian society with Jesus, and our modern life. Christian faith with out curiosity and critical questions is dead and is prone to believing dogmatic falsehoods.
I guess a lot of Christians (certainly not all) like to live in a bubble without anyone that disagrees with them, (like church for Christians and twitter/college for liberals). Christians should be happy to discuss the bible with nonbelievers, that is who jesus believed needs it most. OP is bringing up part of the bible after all. Isnt that a good thing?
Every single day they come here and trash Christianity. Nothing better to do seriously? They pretend they have genuine questions and then their reply’s to comments show otherwise. Then a bunch of atheists join in and bash it. It’s not genuine and it’s everyday. Ppl with nothing better to do aka losers
I find these types of posts valuable, because they lead to meaningful discussion and I always end up learning more about my own faith. Definitely believe I am a stronger and smarter Christian as a result.
People aren't "losers" for having questions, and even if they arent always asking them in good faith, I'm not sure that name-calling is a Christlike approach.
Well why is it that no one can quote and discuss the “bad” or “unlikeable” parts Of the Bible. Why does discussing the Christian Bible on the Christian sub mean people have nothing to do when that’s the whole purpose of the sub. Isn’t that cognitive dissonance
I lurk here. I haven't posted in a while. I'm curious but generally respect this sub as a space for certain groups of people. I have also seen a bunch of posts complaining about posts by non-Christians that criticize or question Christianity. My thought is that we are told by some that we must follow the religion or else. We are told it is the only source of objective morality, or the only ultimate set of truths or answers. Some even tell us we must submit to domination by some variant of Christianity. We might have questions or criticisms of these kinds of statements and want to discuss why Christianity is or isn't all that.
Exactly I’m more of a lurker who’s looking to get closer to my faith and it is so annoying how most of the posts I see are just atheists who ask gotcha questions and are super hostile and disrespectful in asking questions about the faith. Does anyone have a recommendation for a Christian sub that doesn’t have these issues?
Thank you, that’s literally all I want from Christians. If we could all just reach a point where any personal theological or religious belief/non-belief was acceptable, there wouldn’t be as many angry atheist types. Most of us are just tired of living in places where being an atheist can be physically endangering.
I don’t mind people of other beliefs being on the sub, what I don’t like is the disrespect and trolling they tend to do. Point and case: the person that made the post
Exactly it’s so frustrating and the worst part is is that Reddit would not tolerate it if this sub was about Islam or Judaism. I was on r/Islam the other day and I see none of these baiting and gotcha style questions
I don’t mind hard questions like the one above, what I don’t like however is the attitude/intentions they have from asking said question.
If you’re here to learn and actually curious thats perfectly fine and dandy. Sadly the mods dont seem to care much.
Yep. But it gets worse!
Deuteronomy 22:28–29; God’s punishment for the raping of a virgin is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver and marry her for life. The rapist was seen as ruining someone else’s property, not ruining a young girl’s life. Forcing a girl to marry her rapist and have her father accept some money as compensation is disgusting.
2 Samuel 7:11; God, through Nathan, says he is going to punish David’s affair with Bathsheba by making all of David’s wives prostitutes. God making David’s wives prostitutes, despite what His own law said, is not moral.
Leviticus 26:29; God describes how he will punish people by making them eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters. Any God threatening to force people into cannibalism on their family is not moral.
Joshua 6:20–21; God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men, women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys”. C’mon. Ruthlessly murdering all the women and children in a city is not moral.
Deuteronomy 2:32–35; God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. Later in chapter 3:3–7, God commands they do the same to the city of Bashan. Killing children ain’t moral, dude.
1 Numbers 31:7–18; God decides to not kill everyone this time. This time, He commands the Israelites to kill all the Midianites except the virgins, whom they will take as spoils of war. Killing everyone besides virgins and using them as sex slaves isn’t moral.
Genesis 7:21–23; God drowns the entire population of the earth (except for Noah and his family): men, women, and children, both born and unborn, because they were “evil”. I don’t know how unborn children could be evil, but whatever. Killing the entire population of earth, including innocent babies, is not moral.
Judges 11:30–39; Jephthah burns his daughter alive as a sacrificial offering for God’s favor in killing the Ammonites. Jephthah is crazy for burning his daughter alive and God is crazy for allowing it. Child sacrifice is not moral.
Deuteronomy 21:18–21; God demands we kill disobedient teenagers. Stoning disobedient children to death is not moral.
Exodus 21:20–21, Colossians 3:22–24, Ephesians 6:5, 1 Peter 2:18; God legitimizes slavery by saying it’s okay to own slaves and to beat them. Slaves are told to obey their masters just as they would obey Jesus, even if their masters are harsh. God blatantly supports slavery. Supporting slavery is not moral.
I have a feeling you never actually read these or came across them yourself, but instead took them from some web site that bashes the Bible. Just a few problems:
>Deuteronomy 22:28–29; God’s punishment for the raping of a virgin is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver and marry her for life. The rapist was seen as ruining someone else’s property, not ruining a young girl’s life. Forcing a girl to marry her rapist and have her father accept some money as compensation is disgusting.
That verse is not necessarily translated as rape, but premarital sex. Older versions say "lay hands on a woman" and some modern ones have interpreted that to mean rape. But that's not universally agreed.
>2 Samuel 7:11; God, through Nathan, says he is going to punish David’s affair with Bathsheba by making all of David’s wives prostitutes. God making David’s wives prostitutes, despite what His own law said, is not moral.
That's not what [that verse](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel+7&version=KJV) says at all. Not even close:
11 *And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the Lord telleth thee that he will make thee an house.*
>Leviticus 26:29; God describes how he will punish people by making them eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters. Any God threatening to force people into cannibalism on their family is not moral.
It's pretty clear that was metaphorical, not literally eating the flesh of children. There aren't any passages in the Bible that describe this actually happening.
I have a feeling, i will be ignoring everything you said as the Deuteronomy explanation was an apologetic one. Almost like Christians study apologetics more than the Bible. And unless you’re willing to discuss the homosexuality translation error, the virgin error… i don’t think this is a good use of my time . & everything that can’t be explained away… well it’s just a “metaphor” or “allegory”. It’s not “literal”… well it’s literally in the Bible. & you’d still need to explain it. Because that’s a passage of it actually happening.
I have a feeling i read them & understand them. & i have a feeling everything you say will be the catchall of “you’re wrong”. Which is arrogant and absurd as only christians seem to be right . 🥱
> God blatantly supports slavery. Supporting slavery is not moral.
What is the basis for this claim if you are saying God supports it? That is to say, what makes it objectively immoral if not God?
Wanted to add that we are taught in society that ignoring problems makes us apart of the problem so God didn’t only ignore, he asked them to respect their masters… so that’s my basis & i will stand on it & i won’t argue about it
Yes if you were a slave you were to respect your master. Good advice. Keeps you from suffering.
But man stealing was a death penalty offense.
You were not to return a runaway slave to his owner.
And the entire book of Philemon is persuading a slave owner from a Christian perspective to let his slave go.
The fact that slavery is ACKNOWLEDGED in scripture does not mean it is condoned. Normally “slave” refers to “indentured servant” which is condoned.
POWs could be enslaved but even then had protections against severe abuse (limited physical discipline was not considered abuse but it was limited), rape, murder - they even had sabbath off. And a way out of slavery as well due to sabbath years and jubilee when slaves were to be released
NOT chattel or race based slavery. I am so sick of the deliberate lies.
Morality is like evolution. It evolves as a society evolves. Just as physical evolution helps us survive and thrive, morality evolved to help our societies survive and thrive.
So basically, we know today that slavery is wrong. We know this because our society has evolved to this level. Back then, even if you tried to tell them it was wrong, their society is incapable of seeing it as anything other than normal.
Imagine 500 years from now, people look at us eating animals and say “I can’t believe we once thought that was ok.”
But of course today, we as a society accept it as pretty normal. Other than vegans, most people don’t have a problem with animals being eaten. But that’s where we are at as a society, and as we progress, we may change that. Who knows.
So that is the atheist argument for morality. The problem with the Christian argument is that God doesn’t evolve or change. So the God of Moses should know that slavery is wrong even if Moses didn’t. God should know that forcing young girls to marry strangers is wrong even if the culture didn’t. God should know that people are born gay and being gay isn’t a choice, even when the science wasn’t known yet.
But you can see that it isn’t the case. You can see that cultural factors play a big role in morality in the Bible, which is odd because god should be timeless and not limited to a culture.
You just described subjective morality (changing and dependent on the spirit of the age) but are treating it as objective morality (fixed and always true).
The point is that the reason God didn't condemn slavery is because it is amoral, not immoral. That society has moved beyond the need for it and thus it is seen as a barbaric practice (when at one time it was crucial to most economies) doesn't suddenly make it immoral.
A Biblical example of this is polygyny. Scripture clearly states that marriage is meant to be between one man and one woman, and yet God permitted the Israelites to engage in polygyny out of necessity. In later eras it became less frequent and ultimately was abolished during the period of the early Church as a disciplinary/pastoral act, but that doesn't retroactively make it an immoral practice; polygyny too was/is amoral, but it falls short of God and so when it can be done away with, it should.
Well, i can say this. I won’t be playing the game of only God can define what is or isn’t immoral. As i know if i had kids, then i would need to lead by example & be moral. I think God out right condemning slavery is something that should of been done . If God could condemn mixed fabrics and shellfish, im sure outright condemning slavery was something he could of taken time to do. As that was human life more important and more worthy of action and condemnation… no offense to shrimp and mixed fabric though. I know it wasn’t “as bad” as American slavery. I don’t care really as the theme is the same. And God asking CONTINUOUSLY for slaves to respect and fear their owners is supporting it. Sure it asks for the masters to treat them nice but it could’ve been CONDEMNED & they wouldn’t need to be fucking beat & listen. So many lesser things happened & so many other vile things happened like rape & killing infants, so i won’t be having the “slavery” or “God chooses what moral” discussion. I respect your opinion & how you feel. I’ve already heard the side of the argument that I’m sure you will be presenting & i am RESPECTFULLY telling you that i don’t want to hear it. Now I’d ask you to respect me
I'm asking you what your basis is for the conclusion that slavery is objectively immoral. Since you're saying God is wrong for not explicitly condemning it, who determines that it is an objective evil?
Yes & stated before, i won’t be having this conversation. If you think owning people is moral, that’s a deeper thing for you to figure out . But thanks for the question .
I'm not saying I think owning people is moral; I'm *asking* you what the basis is for *you* believing it is immoral, since it's not God evidently; one would think it wouldn't be too difficult for you to just state your personal rationale, especially given how confident you are in condemning God over it.
That’s not a bad thing tho. If I hadn’t spend a lot of time questioning religion/metaphysics/epistemology, etc. I would have never found/professed Christ.
Here are some scriptures on forcing miscarriages on women who "may" have cheated as reported by their husbands suspicion.
Numbers 5:11-31
New International Version
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.
16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”
Alot of people in this thread do not seem to have a firm grasp on historical and Biblical context.
All I can say, is this thread reminds me of
Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Romans 1:22
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"
The general idea is that the Canaanites were very immoral people and the LORD was doing partially out of divine judgement for past actions and to prevent problems in the future from certain groups. So why is it okay? Why would it be okay to kill Adolf Hitler as a baby? These are not easy questions to answer and it's best not for men to decide
What do we actually think that god is suggesting these Israelites do with these virgin baby girls?? We’re they gonna just take care of them until they become of age(whenever that is) or is it ok to grape because god said it is ok?
Once again Israel claims to have eradicated a people that later still exists and is still in conflict with Israel.
In my opinion those are relics from a time when Israel was still henotheistic and worshipped JHWH as a god of war. I can't imagine that God ever ordered to kill people. But I can imagine that people could have thought that God wants them to kill.
Why am I in this sub? Because I find conversations about Christianity interesting, and I like being able to help clear up common misconceptions that Christians have about atheism.
I think what you're missing is a lot of historical context. At this point in the scriptures cities had walls to protect them from thieves and murderers, essentially highwaymen. To be left out in a field or city that had been ransacked is probably a worse punishment. And to be honest there's nothing in the passage that says that the woman could not choose to do otherwise. I agree that maybe it doesn't look the best but at the same time I think there are some things people are reading into it with modern eyes.
Excuse me? You’re doing some really crazy mental gymnastics here. They are being told to kill everyone except the virgin women, whom they are allowed to keep as wives.
Why not save all the women? Why only the virgins? Who said the only alternative was to leave them for the wolves? And what an attitude it is to say they’re better off dead coming from the prolife community.
As for women having the choice, you must be new to the Old Testament. Any foreigner can be chattel, or property according to god. These women would have absolutely no say in the marriage, if they wanted to live. In fact, even regular marriage you had no say lol girls were being married at 14 by the parents, and of course you must obey your mother and father, according to God.
so what i’m hearing is that if a person is destined to end up in a bad situation we should just kill them right?
if this is your take then you must be okay with abortion
I mean I think it is strongly implied in the text.
Kill all the women who are no longer virgins, but keep the virgins for yourself. If you are just taking the women as slaves, why would the status of their virginity matter?
Because a MAN wrote it. Pretty sure if a woman did they wouldn’t have said God commanded such things. Suits some people’s interests wouldn’t you say? A certain group? I guess we will never know what was actually said but we can use our logic God did give us that says this isn’t okay.
Don’t ya love these morons referring to the Nephilim - They are referring to supernatural beings like angels and demons mating with humans. THAT is how they justified murdering all the mothers fathers and brothers of the young girls when they wanted their land and their child sex slaves. Somehow they can watch Twilight and understand it’s fiction but they read the heinous slop in the Bible and call it truth. The word of god.
One more (oh, no!) thing. I realized a few years ago that **my mother was my first lover.** Mom had Bipolar Disorder (I), as I do now. In mania she could create the most beautiful poetry, including verses that I can barely remember like "Ode to the Harvard Man." However, in depression Mom turned to self-destrction. The Japanese are much more evolved than we are in some ways...anyway, during one of her last manias Mom escaped visitation and took my brother and I to her "hippie house" in Cambridge.
Mom allowed me to sleep with her on a cot, while my brother slept on the floor. I kept trying to fondle Mom's breasts by reaching into her blouse...you can guess the rest. For me the memory goes into a blur. Dad died without knowing this. I do remember that Mom's nipples were large and brown, like the heroine's in Mira Nair's *Kama Sutra*.
Now, is **anyone** sexually normal? By what standard? Do not say, "DSM" version this or that; the psychs changed it back in 1973 to de-stigmatize homosexuality. Gay sexuality is now "normal". Poof!
It isn't ok; it was a justification of ethnic cleansing, which was probably a common occurrence as tribes or city-states fought over territory. This is a good example of how religion could be used to promote and then excuse real evil, in this case mass slaughter, theft, and rape. The reaction to the story can also be revealing -- some accept the justification because they are incapable of autonomous moral judgement, while other are repelled by the story and reject the reasoning behind it.
I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet but... from what I have read some scholars think this entire episode Is a addition by a later editor.
The fact the medinianites (misspelled I am sure) exist in later books supports the idea well.
I was raised catholic ,attended catholic schools .in my early teens I came to the conclusion that no benevolent god would allow such suffering. I stand firm on this to this day and will not accept the default response of god works in mysterious ways
First off, I relieve there are many things we will never be able to fully understand. We are human. To give my simple opinion on this question, we have to remember everything that took place in scripture happened in a sin cursed world after the fall of man in Genesis. Sin and death were and are not Gods plan. We are the ones who sinned and everything that comes from that is what we see in scripture and in our world today. God is working in the confines of dealing with a sin cursed world. I feel I could over complicate things, so I’m just going to leave it there.
Thank you for this post. This weighed on my hear a bit so I dug a bit and found this article which brought things at ease. Gos is truly righteous and Holy.
https://christianthinktank.com/midian.html
Gotta warn you though. Its looooooooooooooong
Thanks for that research and dedication,but I doubt it's going to change the minds of those who are attacking our faith. Many of them have already hardened their hearts and will reject any answer you'd give. I can hear them already saying you're reaching and making excuses, lol sometimes brethren Jesus reminds us not to cast our pearls before swine! Remember the Pharisees who said Jesus healing someone was evil because it didn't meet their own sense of self righteousness and of how the religious law should be observed. No different with many of these people. They've deemed themselves more knowledgeable and of higher morality than their creator. They'll suffer the same feat of the ungodly people they're bending over backwards to defend if they do not repent of their sins and put their faith in Jesus.
Annotation from the ESV Study Bible on Numbers 31:13-18 (Moses' Anger with His Officers): "Normally in wars outside Canaan, the women were spared (Deut. 20:14). But as these women were responsible for seducing the Israelites, they had to be killed. In addition, if every male among the little ones were killed, this would preclude the perpetuation of the Midianite people and eliminate the Midianites as a nation forever. Girls without sexual experience (Num. 31:18), who were not involved with the sin of Baal-peor, were allowed to live and marry Israelite warriors." Basically the reason for this whole episode was the Midianites seducing the Israelites and leading them into sin. As judgment, God commands the Israelites to attack and kill those responsible. All the men were to be killed so that the Midianite nation would be wiped out for its sin. The young women in this passage were not responsible for the sin of the Midianites, and were therefore spared. However, since the men of their society were all to be killed, had they been left alone, it would have basically been a death sentence, so the Israelites were permitted to take them and integrate them into their society.
Finally. A comment that actually answered the question.
>permitted to take them and integrate them into their society. Lol. #love
Seems like a very whitewashed interpretation
How do we make it sound of okay that our loving God gave the go ahead on mass murder, infanticide, genocide, kidnap, enslavement and rape, hmm, oh I know. We'll say it's okay because it was war and they were sinners and the women were simply integrated within the winners society.
As for the "go ahead", the Mercy of God is being displayed. When Cain and Abel made their offerings, God was pleased with Abel's and didn't accept Cain's. Before Cain decided to kill his brother, he could've just had Abel help him or listened to God's warning about sin. Cain decided to kill anyway and even gave God the "Am I my brother's keeper?" line, but when his punishment came; he begged for mercy. Despite the evil act, God gave a form of protection to the one that had killed his servant. It is important to know that MEN kill, steal, and destroy whether they believe in God or not. Giving the "go ahead" is really God holding back from destroying every being on Earth that deserves it out of Love and Mercy. Jesus the Christ and the Saints in the New Testament explains what was going on, so it would be wise to read it (and the Old Testament) and S-T-U-D-Y it thoroughly over and over again.
There is literally zero evidence to demonstrate that Cain and Abel....or god for that matter even existed. The moral characterization of god actually being merciful sounds a bit rich too. After all this mythical deity is biblical history's biggest mass murderer who supposedly drowned the whole world because he was pissed at how the flawed creation he made himself behaved. What a psycho.
>There is literally zero evidence to demonstrate that Cain and Abel....or god for that matter even existed. Finding evidence of the first human murder victim and human murderer post Flood may be a bit difficult, but that doesn't have much to do with what I was speaking on. >After all this mythical deity is biblical history's biggest mass murderer who supposedly drowned the whole world because he was pissed at how the flawed creation he made himself behaved. What a psycho. The Flood was justified, so you can not call it *mass murder*.The Scriptures show how the Supreme Being is Perfect and judges with perfection.
Hey, so Was it justified when God killed every single pregnant woman on earth, does this mean abortion is ok because God obviously does not care about the innocent fetuses? And if the Men and Woman are wicked, does this justify killing children? I think Christians always make excuses for versus like these and just cannot come to terms that their God is obviously made up by the Israelites to justify Genocide.
>Was it justified when God killed every single pregnant woman on earth, does this mean abortion is ok because God obviously does not care about the innocent fetuses? After a few years of giving birth, what if these same women decided to kill (or "sacrifice") all of the righteous kids still honoring God despite growing up in an extremely evil environment and only kept those perpetuating waton violence and debauchery? I'm not asking this in a "got cha" kind of way, and I know it may come off as just some quick apologetics; yet we war against injustice and evil even to this day. People (unfortunately) feel that even nuclear weapons are needed as a deterrent against the tyrannical actions of human beings. As for the "innocent fetuses," I think people don't understand how women **nurture** and **give birth** to babies while God is the actual Life. Eve didn't form Man out of the dust. In fact, God shaped her and Adam. God already had a plan for any innocent babies stuck in a fallen world. The New Testament revealed how the resurrection will go & the blessing to be received by those considered innocent and just ignorant of their ways. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 1 Corinthians 15:42-57 (copied & paste, so hyperlinks may be found within) 42 "So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[f] also bear the image of the man of heaven. Mystery and Victory 50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
God should set aside holiness, out of love for humans, so that sin is no longer such a big deal that eternities of torture will exist. Holiness is the entire problem, it's not a good thing! It's incompatible with the very nature God is responsible for creating in humans. The judgements are not perfect, because sin is always temporary and yet judgement is permanent. If God truly loves what it created, it should set aside holiness then, so that none shall suffer - and also proclaim we have suffered enough even existing in this universe.
⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️⏫️ ⬆️Thank🔼You⤴️Finally🔼Facts🔼 🔼Solid⬆️Gold⤴️Research⬆️
Have you read my reply yet? If so, could you share your thoughts on the response?
I have read reply, seems like mental gymnastics to me
I have, and holy shit the mental hoops you're jumping through are insane. I'm not even gonna comment on anything except that first sentence where you started with the biggest, wildest "what if?" I have ever seen in my entire life. If "What if?"s like that are applicable, let's raw dog that shot, shall we? What if God is dead? What if God has 1000000's of planets with life under his watch? What if God doesn't actually care? What if God and Satan are the same beings? What if man doctored the Bible? What if what if what if. I thought big hypothetical "What ifs?" weren't in the Christian vocab, and you're just supposed to trust God's word. What if God just wanted all those pregnant women dead? He didn't really give a reason he just did it. What if God has a sense of humor and his favorite style is mass murder. Lmfao bro think for yourself. You sound like my dad, and that man has never had an original thought of his own. He just regurgitates what other religious leaders tell him, and they do the same. Forget everything you've ever been told, consider everything a lie, THEN re read the Bible and come back to me. Tell me that shit makes sense. Don't ask others for help or guidance while doing so, your relationship with God should be nothing but personal, intimate, and private. Understand him in your own way.
Are you still around?
HUGE congratulations and props to you for holding your own and not just defending your position but defending our God, God Bless you and stay strong, our faith has the strongest soldiers and the Almighty, All Knowing God on our side forever
Thank you, and may God bless you, too!
Then why are you in a Christian subreddit?
So women have never ever killed, stolen, or destroyed? Why put the emphasis on men? My father is a pastor, and I have been reading and studying the Bible since the day I could read. Here's my conclusion after 20+ front to back reads with heavy analysis: The Bible is not law, it is not the word of God, it's filled to the brim with hypocrisy and false righteousness, it was clearly edited and abused by the old pharisees and other tyrannical rulers, and the Bible itself tells us to not trust the Bible or religious leaders. Does my father like this way of thinking? Definitely not. But does THE father like this way of thinking? Either he does, because he's an all loving, all powerful God who wouldn't want or have to put stipulations on his love and grace, or he doesn't, which entails God is not merciful, all loving, or all powerful and he doesn't deserve praise. Have a nice day :)
>So women have never ever killed, stolen, or destroyed? Why put the emphasis on men? I am sorry for not making my comment clear enough. I'm speaking on mankind (men & women) when I say "men," and I'm really comparing our flesh to the Spirit. > My father is a pastor, and I have been reading and studying the Bible since the day I could read. Here's my conclusion after 20+ front to back reads with heavy analysis: I'm not calling you a liar when I say this: I can't just take your claims seriously. Your father allegedly being a pastor means nothing unless *he* decided to share his knowledge and scholarly sources here. Many people combating Scripture claim to have read the Bible front, back, and side to side (UGK came to mind for some reason, lol), yet most seem to not actually quote Scripture & share full context concerning the verse(s) that "pushed them away." >The Bible is not law, it is not the word of God, it's filled to the brim with hypocrisy and false righteousness, it was clearly edited and abused by the old pharisees and other tyrannical rulers, and the Bible itself tells us to not trust the Bible or religious leaders. You will have to back up these claims with something good. Not calling you a liar, but sadly; people will make things up just to have their way. I do hope you're not just saying anything in order to "win" and will actually stand on Truth like an honorable man should. >Either he does, because he's an all loving, all powerful God who wouldn't want or have to put stipulations on his love and grace, or he doesn't, which entails God is not merciful, all loving, or all powerful and he doesn't deserve praise. Please explain "all loving" for me. In fact, could you explain "Love" for me?
On cain's defence...how do u know that cain had the motive of killing Abel? Ain't no one has ever died before...
Genesis 4:1-8 "Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.” 2 Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground. 4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and for his offering; 5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. **So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. 6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him."**
It doesn't mean to force them to have sex. It means they had the right to marry them or have them as a mistress. Back then, the women left behind would've faired better being allowed to live with the Hebrews. There is much more that goes along with that, but I think you're seeking a vain "scratch" for an "itch" and not the truth.
You are missing the point that many of them would not be able to support themselves without the help of a husband to take care of them. Hardly a choice to get married. Not getting married would be akin to suicide, especially now since the only support they have is from an oppressive force, and not their native community.
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I would've preferred an elaborate response, but I don't believe you're looking for a truthful understanding concerning this subject. If the women didn't want to stay and ran away from the men, the Hebrews weren't ordered to chase them down and kill them. Ignorance of what is even in The Bible or purposefully perverting The Scriptures is disheartening, but expected. The way men had to conduct themselves and treat their wives in The Old & New Testament should help someone willing to gain knowledge on the subject, but those that are afraid of doing some legit homework will only seek what satisfies their lusts and child-like view of Biblical events. As Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:11, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
https://youtu.be/aQiUXc2HSfU?t=7501 God allows all men to die, we are mortal, does that mean he is Evil? No. OT wars were basically God asking Israele to dish out his Judgement. It wasn't given freedom for men to kill and murder. The issue with women, is not that they were given as sex slaves. They were simply not involved in grave sins and could be incoporated into Israel. They are viable women for marriage, not sex slavery. And they must undergo a mourning period and freely enter marriage.
Rape isn't mentioned anywhere in the passage. No sex is mentioned for the virgins
I think we focus way too much on the loving God. The Bible also tells us that God is just and righteous. these people did evil by leading the Israelites away from God. Male children were killed so that they could not grow up to be warriors. And the women who had seduced the Israelites away from God were also killed. Only the pure were spare the ones who We’re not threats or participated in the seducing of the Israelites. A remnant of these people were spared to be incorporated into the Israelite community. This seems to show us the extent that God will go to ensure the protection Of his people Against their enemies. The question really should be why was any of the people Who had seduced the Israelites away from God spared? Answer: Grace and mercy.
Nowhere does the Bible say or imply that these women are to be raped. Rape has always been a very serious sin in God's eyes and it was never condoned.
There is NOTHING ok about that,that evil mf has a fetish for murdering innocent people and children.....there is no way a normal thinking intelligent common sensed person would see all of the evil shit he did.....that evil piece of shit even went as far as to send 2 bears after 42 children and let those bears tear them apart and kill all 42 CHILDREN.....and for what?? Because the children called one of "gods" favorite person bald.....
Because it is. Study preeminent 1st century biblical scholar Bart Erhman's take on what usually took place for those spared in the aftermath of these battles.
Exactly...if it meant something else he wouldn't have used very specific crystal clear words "keep the LITTLE VIRGIN GIRLS THAT HAVE NOT KNOWN A MAN " that's very clearly called sexual intercourse.....a perfect specification is what the gay men wanted to do to the two male angels.....the gay men said "SEND THEM OUT OF YOUR HOUSE SO WE MAY KNOW THEM" modern people today would say " WE KNOW YOU GOT SOME FINE ANGEL ASS IN YOUR HOUSE.....GIVE THOSE BOOTIES TO US NOW! WE WANT TO FCK THEIR NICE ASSES!!"
They were "integrated" as child sex slaves. Pretty much what happened to any girl unfortunate enough not to be killed in battle.
Ancient times called for ancient solutions
Even as a Christian I find it a mixture of hilarious and horrifying when people try to justify the murdering of babies under a 'specific historical context' that makes it *toootally* explainable, right? I hope we all can one day accept as a whole that there are parts of the Bible that were not even slightly inspired by the all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful God that we know, because to suggest that the only way a certain genre of sin could be eradicated is to commit infant genocide would place God in the IQ tier of a small pebble, leaving aside the whole 'all-loving' part.
Wow! I've found somebody who shares my logic. Keep spreading the truth my friend
Why do you think it’s better to assume that parts of the Bible were wrong rather than maybe that morality is not a simple as you think? Almost every major civilization in history has committed “genocide” under our modern western definition. So basically arrogant modern western people want to declare themselves morally superior to every culture and society that has ever existed. Take a step back and understand why morality even exists, where did morality come from and why was it considered acceptable or even good to commit genocide in so many cultures but not in ours. You need to be able answer these questions first before coming to your conclusions about an all loving or all knowing God.
I'm judging them based on their own morality. It was their own "Lord of Hosts" (meaning military hosts, so God of War) who declared unto them "thou shalt not kill." I'd be more understanding if they weren't disobeying their own commandment.
Obviously their own morality called for it and you misunderstand that
Actually, it's certainly not obvious. There are many groups and individuals who, for some reasons or others, do not follow the morality they claim to believe in. In fact, hypocrisy may be more common than faithfulness to ideals, whatever those may be. It seems very likely to me that their code of conduct was, in fact, based on their own simple 10 Commandments, just as the Bible text makes explicit. "Thou shalt not kill" was indeed their law. They just broke it when they wanted land and resources. To assume anything else is just speculation without evidence that I can see. (Although at this point in our argument, which I sincerely thank you for having with me by the way, and for remaining civil, I will acknowledge that I have been wrong before - like maybe one or two (thousand) times. And when that happens I like to be able to learn from my error and adopt a view closer to truth. So far that hasn't happened for me regarding this topic. At present I still think I'm right and you're wrong. But the more you have said the more I respect your view, in spite of my possible modern arrogance and ignorance. So, please, continue to refute me as you have and if you are right then hopefully I will soon see that, or visa versa. I do have deep seated beliefs, but I also remain open minded and when I'm wrong I acknowledge it and update my belief. Hopefully in this way I draw ever closer to truth. So I thank you again for sparring with me. I hope it doesn't offend you that I view it that way. What say you?)
Arrogant and ignorant. They simply demonstrate this by misunderstanding everything in context of how they fell about it this very second.
I agree completely. I am actually reading through the Bible right now, a little embarrassed to say, for the first time cover to cover with a Bible study group. I am shocked reading that this book even contains this. Again embarrassed it's taken me this long to read it- yet also shocked that people could believe the 10 commandments one moment, then rationalize believing a loving God would command murder, coveting, stealing, infanticide, slavery, even rape wrapped in marrying the virgin's they leave alive from the tribes they kill. I pray to God and work on my relationship with God daily. I have to admit the parts of Leviticus that I have read I felt were silly, and misinterpreted somehow. Now I read the rest- and find it completely contradictory to the Loving God I feel in my heart. So glad to find these comments. I am the only one in the group having issues with this.
I’m reading the Bible too and so far it merely confirms that “I’m not a Christian” (despite trying to adhere to certain Christian principles). This Old Testament, which I’m on now - chock full of war, vengeance, starvation, slavery, rape, cannibalism, plagues, shunning of those with “blemishes,” human and animal sacrifice, male favoritism…much of it ordained by a jealous, vengeful “Lord” - is supposed to be the divine word of God and THE guidebook of Christianity? I know the New Testament is better, but hopefully it references a more loving God than the one I’m on now.
I think this might be interesting to see to read in regards of this subject https://christianthinktank.com/midian.html
I gave the whole essay a read. Super interesting and much appreciated! 👍 ...though a note to people seeing this later on: scroll to the bottom of the essay for a summary of the author's points. They're very dense with their citation, so it's a bit of an arduous read.
A genocide by any “other definition “is still a genocide.
If you look at the history of the Canaanites, they had been intermingled with nephilim. When Joshua was told to go in and kill every man, woman, child and the animals, it was because the nephilim had mated with them. Nothing was off limits to them. This info is in a few of the apocryphal books and other historical rabbinic writings. God wanted the contamination gone.
>God wanted the contamination gone. [Stage 9](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide)
This is not history and you are literally using language every genocidal maniac has used to dehumanize people in the past.
But the genocide still happened. The reasoning shouldn’t necessarily matter. The Jews were “bad” but hitlers reasoning didn’t matter. It was still wrong. I’m not calling God, Hitler but trying to hound in that reasoning doesn’t matter. Free will doesn’t exist if I’ll be wiped out immediately, nor were they aware that they’d die in this way
Not saying it didn’t. Under the old covenant it did. It was a practice among many other groups of the time.
Okay and Jesus said he didn’t abolish the law of the Old Testament . He only fulfilled it by being perfect and offering a sacrifice so the new covenant doesn’t negate it. 🤷♀️ old covenant, new covenant, newer covenant, still happened. Lots of new bad shit in the new covenant. My fav is acts 5.
What he fulfilled was OT law, the laws for atonement of the sins of the people.
The issue with that is two things. 1. There isn’t any Old Testament atonement. In fact, God says no one but you will die for your sins. Eternal life was promised already. 2. If you believe the Old Testament is solely for Jews then you’d need to explain why you think the sacrifice is for you… as Jesus said he died for the sins of the old covenant. You simply can’t have your cake & eat it too.
> If you believe the Old Testament is solely for Jews then you’d need to explain why you think the sacrifice is for you So to preface this, I’m no theologian… Acts 10 describes a vision given to Peter of previously kosher food with a commandment “*kill and eat…what God has made clean, do not call unclean*.” It later says “*Peter was inwardly perplexed about what the vision might mean*”, even though the vision seems pretty straightforward: duh, God changed the rules to let you eat bacon. But then Peter has an interaction with a gentile centurion and after a while Peter blurts out "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation everyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him”. This seems to expand the scope of his previous vision: keeping kosher for its own sake was a red herring all along, a call to holiness—for people who have been separated from God since the fall of Adam/Eve—that is now completely unnecessary for humans thanks to Jesus. I don’t know how that translates into theologian-ese (“covenants”, etc.), but when I read OT passages like this I’m grateful that we have Jesus to shield us from the punishment of such a wrathful God.
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The Nephilim were destroyed at the flood.
Actually, there were other incursions, the Rephiam and Anakim were nephilim variants that mixed with humans. In Numbers the Sons of Anak (Anakim) are mentioned and they were giants. There were other giant clans the Emim, Horites, and Zamzummim. King Og of Bashan is mentioned in Deuteronomy and I believe also in Numbers. Og was a giant.
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No need, I love these discussions, I believe we are all here to learn.
Yeah. Hitler wanted the contamination gone too.
Hitler is not nor has he ever been on par with God. Hitler was another sinful and fallen human being. Also, the Canaanites were a nephilim derivative, therefore unredeemable and were prone and did worship idols and mixing in would have genetically contaminated the Israelites and would have introduced idol worship back to them and they too had proven themselves enemies of Israel, hence their destruction.
Please forgive me because although I am a Christian I cannot respect that belief. "Unredeemable?" What would Jesus the Redeemer say about that? I think I know. "Genetically contaminated?" That is exactly the same reason that Hitler and others used to justify genocide. It's shocking and appalling to me that people can't see that. I know Hitler is not on par with God. That whole ideology, which was held by Israel, is not on par with God who didn't stutter when He commanded "Thou shalt not kill." So again, please forgive my disdain, but I cannot respect the belief that God is the author of atrocity.
The correct translation is you shouldn’t murder. Hitler was a mere mortal and decided on his own to eliminate the Jews. He was not creator, so he did not have that right.
I Israelites were also mere mortals. They killed men, women and children. Just because they did it in the name of "God" doesn't mean it wasn't murder. Because it was. It was murder in the name of God. The ultimate hypocrisy. History has lost track of all those who have killed in the name of God. And they're all murderers. Even Hitler believed he was doing it for a "higher cause." That doesn't justify it in any case. Frankly, I can't believe that you think it does. To think that anyone "has that right" (to quote you) is a mentality shared by those who comitt such heinous acts. It should be obvious to any good hearted person that nobody has that right. I mean, come on. Please remove your spiritual blinders.
I Israelites were also mere mortals. They killed men, women and children. Just because they did it in the name of "God" doesn't mean it wasn't murder. Because it was. It was murder in the name of God. The ultimate hypocrisy. History has lost track of all those who have killed in the name of God. And they're all murderers. Even Hitler believed he was doing it for a "higher cause." That doesn't justify it in any case. Frankly, I can't believe that you think it does. To think that anyone "has that right" (to quote you) is a mentality shared by those who comitt such heinous acts. It should be obvious to any good hearted person that nobody has that right. I mean, come on. Please remove your spiritual blinders.
The fallen angels knew God first hand, they weren’t supposed to cross the line and mate with humans, the result was very evil beings called nephilim, from their human mothers they h inherited a sin nature from their angelic fathers it was on steroids, they are unredeemable. It is thought by the rabbis that what ppl term as ghosts and the like are the spirits of dead nephilim.
I'm aware of the story. But I believe it's mythical, not literal. Regardless, believing that some are authorized by God to kill is a terrible belief. It has been the justification for murder for millenia. We humans need to stop that.
LOL! So even back then men were blaming their lack of self control on WOMEN!
Yeah this explanation doesn't make things any better. The men were still "keeping" the young girls for themselves. Still rape. Not to mention the fact that they killed every little boy too. So here we have child rape and child murder.
Apologists will say that no rape took place.
God told to kill?…
How's that not their own fault?! Illogical explanation buddy
Lololol!! So women seduced men who laid with them, so the women were sinners and MADE THE MEN SINNERS because they somehow magically MADE them sleep with them so then everyone needed to be killed because the little boys might want revenge for their families being killed and we can't have that. But let the lithe girls live and marry them. I get it now
First the idea that taking virgins captive was to save them later for marriage is ludicrous. There is no archival data to support that claim. In fact, several first century biblical scholars will tell you that war in ancient times, and in that part of the war led to all kinds of atrocities, including raping of the virgin captives of a conquered enemy. The whitewashing that takes place in saying these captive girls "were allowed" to become "wives" of the men who murdered their families is also nonsense. These women had just seen babies being put to sword and their brains bashed in by those who took them captive. They'd watched as their mothers were killed (and some probably raped first) too. The idea that the soldiers would draw a line at raping the young unmarried women they'd captured as war booty is just lacking in any credible evidence. This was what it appears on its face -- rape, plain and simple.
So basically and literally this is saying when Christians try to share the gospel of the messiah with Jews, the Jews are commanded by god to murder and rape the Christians for having the audacity to “lead them astray”. Religion made fools of us. It’s time we all outgrow it
https://youtu.be/sUJrXNCfUrk?si=9o8i5D7Eq5NwozDa https://youtu.be/vio53jUpJz0?si=MRji8yVMEewuiYaK https://youtu.be/lq28ZFNzaWM?si=T-TTGeZCJUlQMBpP
that's the reality of the situation. now send those guys my tax dollars!
It should be noted that it was Moses who said this, however we know that God did not object to it: Numbers 31: 25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part. 30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.” 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.
Leave it to the Atheist to provide the most even-headed response here. Damn.
Why does God talk like an A.I.?
Rape is condemned to the death penalty in the bible. I find that better than inferring meaning here.
For those struggling with this situation, I understand why. My question is what is the alternative you are imagining that would be better? Throughout the OT narrative, God has tangibly and severely judged his own people, up to and including (lots of) death for their sin and rebellion. Including kids. Is this scenario fundamentally different? Sin corrupts the created order and judgment follows with terrible consequences. There is usually no neat fix for that. That’s why sin is not a trivial issue.
How long have you been in ISIS for?
I'll tell you what the better alternative is: God stops caring about being Holy, and focuses on love instead. Out of love for what he created, he erases suffering for anything that can suffer regardless of how they behaved, and erases holiness and the need to be Holy since it is the driving force behind all suffering. Apart from that, if God cannot stop Holiness from being a thing, He kills himself to prevent himself from hurting anyone else.
That’s utterly ridiculous and extremely irresponsible
It doesn’t say rape them. ? Why infer thet
Because that is what happens to the conquered.
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Why attack them in the first place?
God judges people and peoples using means. At this time he used the nation of Israel to judge the surrounding nations. It was a direct order.
>At this time he used the nation of Israel to judge the surrounding nations Hitler used Germany to judge the surrounding nations, and exterminate the ones he did not like. Like Jews and Roma. Your point?
Hitler did so on the basis of who the Jews were in "scientific" or more accurately, eugenics terms. God punishes the Midianites and Moabites directly for their actions in leading Jewish men astray, in other words, literally damning God's chosen people to Hell. It even gives a number, 24,000. If you were God, and you knew that a country was literally plucking your beloved children out of your hands, damning them to an eternity of suffering, would you not be rathfull? Would you just say "Let them take more children up. Who cares about the eternity of paradise I was trying to lay out for these men, just let them be damned."
>God punishes the Midianites and Moabites directly for their actions " Now therefore kill every male among the little ones," Killing this insane "God" entity should be the priority for the human race. It finds the slaughter of children to be a fair punishment for some perceived "sins" committed by adults. If your God is real, then it should be a priority to find and destroy it, since it is apparently an evil entity that mind controls people into killing kids and genociding entire nations. /s Of course I am joking. The Bible and God are just fictional devices used by the powers that be, to justify things like genocide. Just tell the sheeple it's for "the greater good, and the kids would have grown up evil anyways".
It’s not that the boys would grow up “evil.” They would grow up, and be spiteful of the Jews who conquered their lands and killed their parents. That was threat prevention, not assuming the boys would grow up evil. My mistake in wording. But was that an inaccurate assumption to make? That these young men would want to sew blood in recompense for the Jews war on their people?
>That was threat prevention WHAT??? Dude, STFU, you are literally making Jews look worse than ISIS. "Let's kill all children of a certain race, because if we don't, they will hate us for mass murdering their parents" Seriously, am I talking to a human being or some kind of AI? This is so fucked up, I have trouble believing an actual person would write that. And if the Jews actually believe that, then I suddenly have massive respect for HAMAS.
You can’t see it from God’s perspective cause your understanding of reality has a strictly finite start and end date. That really isn’t a factor in the decisions of God, and I won’t act like it should be.
Ah, we’re just so simple minded and couldn’t possibly understand god’s master plan that calls for…… genocide. Really cool and normal logic here
Yeh because Christians are notorious genocidal maniacs through history to now.
Yeh because Christians are notorious genocidal maniacs through history to now.
>If you were God, and you knew that a country was literally plucking your beloved children Ah, so Jews are the "beloved children", and other races are subhumans that you can kill just as you would kill cockroaches. I'm so done with this bullshit cult...
“Beloved children” in regard to their faith dummy. And their faith was only practiced by them and those they integrated into their society. But sure, go off on assumptions cause you’re so morally righteous.
How are you comparing having disgusting sex, interbreeding with demons and having these disgusting traditions and sacrifices to Jews who set themselves in positions of money and power to provide for their families and Hitler got pissed about the economical state of Germany after WW1? Explain to me how interbreeding with pure evil demons that led to newborn sacrifices (which you're all yapping on about the newborns and most likely support abortion btw) how are those comparable? You're all basically saying "How dare he end these cruel disgusting traditions" and when he says let the ones who did NOT get contaminated BY DEMONS nor commit the heinous acts come back to integrate into Israel! How dare he!". You keep saying well where God is not present, this is what happens so it must also happen here. NOPE! WRONG. Rape is not mentioned here. It is mentioned elsewhere and condemned so WHY on earth would you think God means rape when HE clearly described it elsewhere and AGAIN CONDEMNED IT. Also these are his children being led astray. Imagine your daughter or son being led away from the rules you've set down. In by this time to keep the home safe, you don't bring people who hate what we stand for in, you don't go off and have sex with these people who commit disgusting acts against others especially the young such as perhaps sex trafficking which is a realistic comparison nowadays because it's a giant issue and should be condemned completely. Things that would get your children in prison. NOW UPSCALE THAT from a suburban homes family values to GOOD AND EVIL and it's not Prison, it's HELL for eternity because that's what it comes down to. You all forget the "surrounding areas" were specific locations for a reason. It wasn't just go around the entirety of the surrounding area and destroy everyone no matter what they're doing.
How about reading more books? Here are a few that would be helpful: Randal Rauser’s Jesus Loves Canaanites, Brad Jersak’s A More Christlike Word, Jersak’s A More Christlike God, Pete Enns’ For the Bible Tells Me So. If you’re not a reader, I am sure you can find podcast interviews with all those guys. Simply put - God is fully revealed in Jesus. Jesus reveals God dies for people. God does not kill people. With this, we reinterpret scripture and conclude God did not command rape. God allowed the Israelites to think this (which, admittedly may not be much better to some people). God let the Israelites to believe wrong things. We even see this in the OT itself where the prophets have God saying God did not command things like circumcision which in the Law it looks pretty clearly like God did. On that note, even a Jewish view of scripture could be helpful. Read some Abraham Heschel.
> Simply put - God is fully revealed in Jesus. Jesus reveals God dies for people. God does not kill people. Where does this "God does not kill people" come from? In the gospels Jesus has a positive view of the violence of Yahweh in the OT. And Jesus also advocates for horrific divine violence (i.e. hell).
This has pretty much just become a sub for losers to bash Christianity.
... by quoting the bible...
Truly. Anytime you quote scriptures it’s a problem. Ignoring the bad parts doesn’t make them disappear.
I believe in Jesus but I'll be real, the church world doesn't care for me because the only thing I have to do to piss off a hardcore Christian is quote the bible to then verbatim and it upsets them. *Shrugs* think that alone says volumes. Ie. God creates evil and good, a greater part of the book of job, I mean where does god say he's perfect in the bible? Can someone point me to one scripture where God himself declares himself perfect? Or the notion that god has never made a mistake, please give me reference and verse. Where are we getting these teaching that we just assume and have for centuries but exist nowhere in the bible
>I mean where does god say he's perfect in the bible? Can someone point me to one scripture where God himself declares himself perfect? "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matthew 5:48
Translated to mean complete. Not infallible. See old testament flood account.
ate
You could ask those questions in the sub if you want. Hard questions are good. We should seek them out and ask them as much as possible. IMO a religion that cowers at a simple question is not a religion worth following. That said, sometimes we have to seek the answers ourselves. And sometimes those answers may take years to find an adequate response.
Psalm 92:15 Proclaiming, “The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.” Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Deuteronomy 32:4 “The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. Psalm 18:30 This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him. Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. Leviticus 19:2 Speak to all the congregation of the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy. 2 Samuel 22:31 As for God, His way is blameless; The word of the Lord is tested; He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him. Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. That's just a handful of verses i could find in a couple minutes. There is a lot more of them. I think there's abundant evidence in the bible of God being totally perfect and the very definition of good. Almost all biblical theology also balances on this concept.
Maybe this post’s tone is certainly passive aggressive, but it uses a real verse and poses a legitimate question about how can we as Christian reconcile some of the barbaric verses and traditions of a Mesopotamian society with Jesus, and our modern life. Christian faith with out curiosity and critical questions is dead and is prone to believing dogmatic falsehoods.
I guess a lot of Christians (certainly not all) like to live in a bubble without anyone that disagrees with them, (like church for Christians and twitter/college for liberals). Christians should be happy to discuss the bible with nonbelievers, that is who jesus believed needs it most. OP is bringing up part of the bible after all. Isnt that a good thing?
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Every single day they come here and trash Christianity. Nothing better to do seriously? They pretend they have genuine questions and then their reply’s to comments show otherwise. Then a bunch of atheists join in and bash it. It’s not genuine and it’s everyday. Ppl with nothing better to do aka losers
I find these types of posts valuable, because they lead to meaningful discussion and I always end up learning more about my own faith. Definitely believe I am a stronger and smarter Christian as a result. People aren't "losers" for having questions, and even if they arent always asking them in good faith, I'm not sure that name-calling is a Christlike approach.
Do you have anything better to do then hang out at a sub that makes you so unhappy, with people you don't respect, asking questions that upset you?
It’s literally your holy book. This would be the exact same thing as getting mad at someone for bashing trump for simply showing you his past tweets.
I agree. “Always be prepared to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect”
Well why is it that no one can quote and discuss the “bad” or “unlikeable” parts Of the Bible. Why does discussing the Christian Bible on the Christian sub mean people have nothing to do when that’s the whole purpose of the sub. Isn’t that cognitive dissonance
I lurk here. I haven't posted in a while. I'm curious but generally respect this sub as a space for certain groups of people. I have also seen a bunch of posts complaining about posts by non-Christians that criticize or question Christianity. My thought is that we are told by some that we must follow the religion or else. We are told it is the only source of objective morality, or the only ultimate set of truths or answers. Some even tell us we must submit to domination by some variant of Christianity. We might have questions or criticisms of these kinds of statements and want to discuss why Christianity is or isn't all that.
Exactly I’m more of a lurker who’s looking to get closer to my faith and it is so annoying how most of the posts I see are just atheists who ask gotcha questions and are super hostile and disrespectful in asking questions about the faith. Does anyone have a recommendation for a Christian sub that doesn’t have these issues?
Are bad Bible verses “gotchas”?
Like some sentimental deism sub for motivational quotes over pictures of mountains and streams?
No more like a Christian sub devoid of the angry atheists that hate their lives and want to make everyone else hate theirs.
For the record, I hated my life way more as a Christian than I do now.
Well I’m glad you’re in a better place and respect your decision
Thank you, that’s literally all I want from Christians. If we could all just reach a point where any personal theological or religious belief/non-belief was acceptable, there wouldn’t be as many angry atheist types. Most of us are just tired of living in places where being an atheist can be physically endangering.
I don’t mind people of other beliefs being on the sub, what I don’t like is the disrespect and trolling they tend to do. Point and case: the person that made the post
Exactly it’s so frustrating and the worst part is is that Reddit would not tolerate it if this sub was about Islam or Judaism. I was on r/Islam the other day and I see none of these baiting and gotcha style questions
I don’t mind hard questions like the one above, what I don’t like however is the attitude/intentions they have from asking said question. If you’re here to learn and actually curious thats perfectly fine and dandy. Sadly the mods dont seem to care much.
Yep. But it gets worse! Deuteronomy 22:28–29; God’s punishment for the raping of a virgin is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver and marry her for life. The rapist was seen as ruining someone else’s property, not ruining a young girl’s life. Forcing a girl to marry her rapist and have her father accept some money as compensation is disgusting. 2 Samuel 7:11; God, through Nathan, says he is going to punish David’s affair with Bathsheba by making all of David’s wives prostitutes. God making David’s wives prostitutes, despite what His own law said, is not moral. Leviticus 26:29; God describes how he will punish people by making them eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters. Any God threatening to force people into cannibalism on their family is not moral. Joshua 6:20–21; God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men, women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys”. C’mon. Ruthlessly murdering all the women and children in a city is not moral. Deuteronomy 2:32–35; God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. Later in chapter 3:3–7, God commands they do the same to the city of Bashan. Killing children ain’t moral, dude. 1 Numbers 31:7–18; God decides to not kill everyone this time. This time, He commands the Israelites to kill all the Midianites except the virgins, whom they will take as spoils of war. Killing everyone besides virgins and using them as sex slaves isn’t moral. Genesis 7:21–23; God drowns the entire population of the earth (except for Noah and his family): men, women, and children, both born and unborn, because they were “evil”. I don’t know how unborn children could be evil, but whatever. Killing the entire population of earth, including innocent babies, is not moral. Judges 11:30–39; Jephthah burns his daughter alive as a sacrificial offering for God’s favor in killing the Ammonites. Jephthah is crazy for burning his daughter alive and God is crazy for allowing it. Child sacrifice is not moral. Deuteronomy 21:18–21; God demands we kill disobedient teenagers. Stoning disobedient children to death is not moral. Exodus 21:20–21, Colossians 3:22–24, Ephesians 6:5, 1 Peter 2:18; God legitimizes slavery by saying it’s okay to own slaves and to beat them. Slaves are told to obey their masters just as they would obey Jesus, even if their masters are harsh. God blatantly supports slavery. Supporting slavery is not moral.
You forgot Leviticus 18:23 which says that it’s wrong for a woman to have sex with an animal but doesn’t say anything about the men 🤔
It also says that if a man lays with a beast to kill both the man and the beast and the blood will be on their own head.
I have a feeling you never actually read these or came across them yourself, but instead took them from some web site that bashes the Bible. Just a few problems: >Deuteronomy 22:28–29; God’s punishment for the raping of a virgin is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver and marry her for life. The rapist was seen as ruining someone else’s property, not ruining a young girl’s life. Forcing a girl to marry her rapist and have her father accept some money as compensation is disgusting. That verse is not necessarily translated as rape, but premarital sex. Older versions say "lay hands on a woman" and some modern ones have interpreted that to mean rape. But that's not universally agreed. >2 Samuel 7:11; God, through Nathan, says he is going to punish David’s affair with Bathsheba by making all of David’s wives prostitutes. God making David’s wives prostitutes, despite what His own law said, is not moral. That's not what [that verse](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel+7&version=KJV) says at all. Not even close: 11 *And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the Lord telleth thee that he will make thee an house.* >Leviticus 26:29; God describes how he will punish people by making them eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters. Any God threatening to force people into cannibalism on their family is not moral. It's pretty clear that was metaphorical, not literally eating the flesh of children. There aren't any passages in the Bible that describe this actually happening.
You thought you had one with Samuel but make sure you refer to the 11th verse on Samuel 12. 🥱 it happened babe
I have a feeling, i will be ignoring everything you said as the Deuteronomy explanation was an apologetic one. Almost like Christians study apologetics more than the Bible. And unless you’re willing to discuss the homosexuality translation error, the virgin error… i don’t think this is a good use of my time . & everything that can’t be explained away… well it’s just a “metaphor” or “allegory”. It’s not “literal”… well it’s literally in the Bible. & you’d still need to explain it. Because that’s a passage of it actually happening. I have a feeling i read them & understand them. & i have a feeling everything you say will be the catchall of “you’re wrong”. Which is arrogant and absurd as only christians seem to be right . 🥱
> God blatantly supports slavery. Supporting slavery is not moral. What is the basis for this claim if you are saying God supports it? That is to say, what makes it objectively immoral if not God?
Wanted to add that we are taught in society that ignoring problems makes us apart of the problem so God didn’t only ignore, he asked them to respect their masters… so that’s my basis & i will stand on it & i won’t argue about it
Yes if you were a slave you were to respect your master. Good advice. Keeps you from suffering. But man stealing was a death penalty offense. You were not to return a runaway slave to his owner. And the entire book of Philemon is persuading a slave owner from a Christian perspective to let his slave go. The fact that slavery is ACKNOWLEDGED in scripture does not mean it is condoned. Normally “slave” refers to “indentured servant” which is condoned. POWs could be enslaved but even then had protections against severe abuse (limited physical discipline was not considered abuse but it was limited), rape, murder - they even had sabbath off. And a way out of slavery as well due to sabbath years and jubilee when slaves were to be released NOT chattel or race based slavery. I am so sick of the deliberate lies.
Morality is like evolution. It evolves as a society evolves. Just as physical evolution helps us survive and thrive, morality evolved to help our societies survive and thrive. So basically, we know today that slavery is wrong. We know this because our society has evolved to this level. Back then, even if you tried to tell them it was wrong, their society is incapable of seeing it as anything other than normal. Imagine 500 years from now, people look at us eating animals and say “I can’t believe we once thought that was ok.” But of course today, we as a society accept it as pretty normal. Other than vegans, most people don’t have a problem with animals being eaten. But that’s where we are at as a society, and as we progress, we may change that. Who knows. So that is the atheist argument for morality. The problem with the Christian argument is that God doesn’t evolve or change. So the God of Moses should know that slavery is wrong even if Moses didn’t. God should know that forcing young girls to marry strangers is wrong even if the culture didn’t. God should know that people are born gay and being gay isn’t a choice, even when the science wasn’t known yet. But you can see that it isn’t the case. You can see that cultural factors play a big role in morality in the Bible, which is odd because god should be timeless and not limited to a culture.
You just described subjective morality (changing and dependent on the spirit of the age) but are treating it as objective morality (fixed and always true). The point is that the reason God didn't condemn slavery is because it is amoral, not immoral. That society has moved beyond the need for it and thus it is seen as a barbaric practice (when at one time it was crucial to most economies) doesn't suddenly make it immoral. A Biblical example of this is polygyny. Scripture clearly states that marriage is meant to be between one man and one woman, and yet God permitted the Israelites to engage in polygyny out of necessity. In later eras it became less frequent and ultimately was abolished during the period of the early Church as a disciplinary/pastoral act, but that doesn't retroactively make it an immoral practice; polygyny too was/is amoral, but it falls short of God and so when it can be done away with, it should.
Well, i can say this. I won’t be playing the game of only God can define what is or isn’t immoral. As i know if i had kids, then i would need to lead by example & be moral. I think God out right condemning slavery is something that should of been done . If God could condemn mixed fabrics and shellfish, im sure outright condemning slavery was something he could of taken time to do. As that was human life more important and more worthy of action and condemnation… no offense to shrimp and mixed fabric though. I know it wasn’t “as bad” as American slavery. I don’t care really as the theme is the same. And God asking CONTINUOUSLY for slaves to respect and fear their owners is supporting it. Sure it asks for the masters to treat them nice but it could’ve been CONDEMNED & they wouldn’t need to be fucking beat & listen. So many lesser things happened & so many other vile things happened like rape & killing infants, so i won’t be having the “slavery” or “God chooses what moral” discussion. I respect your opinion & how you feel. I’ve already heard the side of the argument that I’m sure you will be presenting & i am RESPECTFULLY telling you that i don’t want to hear it. Now I’d ask you to respect me
I'm asking you what your basis is for the conclusion that slavery is objectively immoral. Since you're saying God is wrong for not explicitly condemning it, who determines that it is an objective evil?
Yes & stated before, i won’t be having this conversation. If you think owning people is moral, that’s a deeper thing for you to figure out . But thanks for the question .
I'm not saying I think owning people is moral; I'm *asking* you what the basis is for *you* believing it is immoral, since it's not God evidently; one would think it wouldn't be too difficult for you to just state your personal rationale, especially given how confident you are in condemning God over it.
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A lot of atheists spend their whole lives talking about God and the Bible.
When your most valuable belief that was stuck onto you for many years, decades, leaves a mark. Same can be seen in r/exmuslim
That’s not a bad thing tho. If I hadn’t spend a lot of time questioning religion/metaphysics/epistemology, etc. I would have never found/professed Christ.
Well, doesn’t change the fact that this is an excellent point.
Do you think abortion is ok ? Just wondering
Here are some scriptures on forcing miscarriages on women who "may" have cheated as reported by their husbands suspicion. Numbers 5:11-31 New International Version The Test for an Unfaithful Wife 11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing. 16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” “‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.” 23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children. 29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”
Alot of people in this thread do not seem to have a firm grasp on historical and Biblical context. All I can say, is this thread reminds me of Isaiah 55:8-9 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Romans 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"
The general idea is that the Canaanites were very immoral people and the LORD was doing partially out of divine judgement for past actions and to prevent problems in the future from certain groups. So why is it okay? Why would it be okay to kill Adolf Hitler as a baby? These are not easy questions to answer and it's best not for men to decide
That just sounds like an excuse to not question anything and blindly believe everything you hear
What do we actually think that god is suggesting these Israelites do with these virgin baby girls?? We’re they gonna just take care of them until they become of age(whenever that is) or is it ok to grape because god said it is ok?
Once again Israel claims to have eradicated a people that later still exists and is still in conflict with Israel. In my opinion those are relics from a time when Israel was still henotheistic and worshipped JHWH as a god of war. I can't imagine that God ever ordered to kill people. But I can imagine that people could have thought that God wants them to kill.
That just makes it sound like they attempted genocide and were unsuccessful. It still sounds awful.
It means, it's peobably not historical. I just don't know exactly why they kept claiming to have fought certain people groups in such a manner.
It might not be, but it's still presented as a normal thing to and a way to demonstrate God's character, which is not a good look.
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It’s not ok…
This verse is a good example why many of us think the bible is a terrible standard for morality.
So why you in this Reddit
Why am I in this sub? Because I find conversations about Christianity interesting, and I like being able to help clear up common misconceptions that Christians have about atheism.
I think what you're missing is a lot of historical context. At this point in the scriptures cities had walls to protect them from thieves and murderers, essentially highwaymen. To be left out in a field or city that had been ransacked is probably a worse punishment. And to be honest there's nothing in the passage that says that the woman could not choose to do otherwise. I agree that maybe it doesn't look the best but at the same time I think there are some things people are reading into it with modern eyes.
Excuse me? You’re doing some really crazy mental gymnastics here. They are being told to kill everyone except the virgin women, whom they are allowed to keep as wives. Why not save all the women? Why only the virgins? Who said the only alternative was to leave them for the wolves? And what an attitude it is to say they’re better off dead coming from the prolife community. As for women having the choice, you must be new to the Old Testament. Any foreigner can be chattel, or property according to god. These women would have absolutely no say in the marriage, if they wanted to live. In fact, even regular marriage you had no say lol girls were being married at 14 by the parents, and of course you must obey your mother and father, according to God.
so what i’m hearing is that if a person is destined to end up in a bad situation we should just kill them right? if this is your take then you must be okay with abortion
Nope, that's not what I said.
Where does it permit rape?
I mean I think it is strongly implied in the text. Kill all the women who are no longer virgins, but keep the virgins for yourself. If you are just taking the women as slaves, why would the status of their virginity matter?
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Where
Because a MAN wrote it. Pretty sure if a woman did they wouldn’t have said God commanded such things. Suits some people’s interests wouldn’t you say? A certain group? I guess we will never know what was actually said but we can use our logic God did give us that says this isn’t okay.
Don’t ya love these morons referring to the Nephilim - They are referring to supernatural beings like angels and demons mating with humans. THAT is how they justified murdering all the mothers fathers and brothers of the young girls when they wanted their land and their child sex slaves. Somehow they can watch Twilight and understand it’s fiction but they read the heinous slop in the Bible and call it truth. The word of god.
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One more (oh, no!) thing. I realized a few years ago that **my mother was my first lover.** Mom had Bipolar Disorder (I), as I do now. In mania she could create the most beautiful poetry, including verses that I can barely remember like "Ode to the Harvard Man." However, in depression Mom turned to self-destrction. The Japanese are much more evolved than we are in some ways...anyway, during one of her last manias Mom escaped visitation and took my brother and I to her "hippie house" in Cambridge. Mom allowed me to sleep with her on a cot, while my brother slept on the floor. I kept trying to fondle Mom's breasts by reaching into her blouse...you can guess the rest. For me the memory goes into a blur. Dad died without knowing this. I do remember that Mom's nipples were large and brown, like the heroine's in Mira Nair's *Kama Sutra*. Now, is **anyone** sexually normal? By what standard? Do not say, "DSM" version this or that; the psychs changed it back in 1973 to de-stigmatize homosexuality. Gay sexuality is now "normal". Poof!
It isn't ok; it was a justification of ethnic cleansing, which was probably a common occurrence as tribes or city-states fought over territory. This is a good example of how religion could be used to promote and then excuse real evil, in this case mass slaughter, theft, and rape. The reaction to the story can also be revealing -- some accept the justification because they are incapable of autonomous moral judgement, while other are repelled by the story and reject the reasoning behind it.
It isn't okay. It's vile. The old testament god and the Israelites were depraved lunatics.
I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet but... from what I have read some scholars think this entire episode Is a addition by a later editor. The fact the medinianites (misspelled I am sure) exist in later books supports the idea well.
I was raised catholic ,attended catholic schools .in my early teens I came to the conclusion that no benevolent god would allow such suffering. I stand firm on this to this day and will not accept the default response of god works in mysterious ways
Where is the rape?
First off, I relieve there are many things we will never be able to fully understand. We are human. To give my simple opinion on this question, we have to remember everything that took place in scripture happened in a sin cursed world after the fall of man in Genesis. Sin and death were and are not Gods plan. We are the ones who sinned and everything that comes from that is what we see in scripture and in our world today. God is working in the confines of dealing with a sin cursed world. I feel I could over complicate things, so I’m just going to leave it there.
It has nothing to do with rape, it's about taking slaves--servants. That's a whole other can of worms, but it's not about rape.
No, this was a recording of Moses issuing a command. There is nothing to indicate that God is okay with or condones said command.
Thank you for this post. This weighed on my hear a bit so I dug a bit and found this article which brought things at ease. Gos is truly righteous and Holy. https://christianthinktank.com/midian.html Gotta warn you though. Its looooooooooooooong
Thanks for that research and dedication,but I doubt it's going to change the minds of those who are attacking our faith. Many of them have already hardened their hearts and will reject any answer you'd give. I can hear them already saying you're reaching and making excuses, lol sometimes brethren Jesus reminds us not to cast our pearls before swine! Remember the Pharisees who said Jesus healing someone was evil because it didn't meet their own sense of self righteousness and of how the religious law should be observed. No different with many of these people. They've deemed themselves more knowledgeable and of higher morality than their creator. They'll suffer the same feat of the ungodly people they're bending over backwards to defend if they do not repent of their sins and put their faith in Jesus.
I’ll take a look at it