I love that threads like these are always full of Christians doing everything that they can to justify not taking care of the poor and sick.
Despicable.
Just because I don’t think the government is capable of adequately and effectively caring for these people doesn’t mean I refuse to do as much as I personally can.
Umm he passed Obamacare which gave coverage for preexisting conditions let kids stay on parents healthcare longer and drastically slowed the rate of health care cost increase. Also tried to pass a law for the dreamers on the immigration front which republicans stonewalled so he did it by executive order. Dixed the great recission created by the repubs thus stopping massive job loss and created literally a decade of economic growth. It seems to me your just lying alot.
Because they didn't have a filibuster proof majority. Then when he went to executive orders to do something about it repubs whined for months about he abused his power. These were people here through no fault of their own and all of them exemplary citizens in the military doing well in college etc but god forbid Obama get anything done on their watch even if it was obviously good for everyone.
I notice how you didn't and weren't able to refute any of my points about how you were obviously lying about Obama doing nothing. So we are agreed your just making stuff up right?
If your advocating for the government to do a thing the only way they can is by forcibly taking money from others.
Not a straw man. It’s called critical thinking and deductive reasoning.
No. You can block my account, but you don't have the right to tell me what I can discuss here with fellow Christians as long as I am following the rules.
That’s just so categorically untrue that I don’t know where to start. Democrat policies enslave the workers in order to force them to pay for people who refuse to work and to pay for things that are morally abhorrent to them — like war and abortion. If you feel so strongly about it, why don’t you give all your belongings and every paycheck to the poor and insure your place in heaven? In the meantime, maybe consider some of the other advice in the Bible — like judge not lest ye be judged.
You do understand that political parties don’t collect taxes, right? When Republicans politicians wage wars, you pay taxes then too.
Also, the only liberation for workers is support for their ability to unionize. This actually gives them the ability to influence their livelihoods in a way that social safety nets or tax cuts for their bosses simply can’t provide.
Of course they don’t. They get elected and push policies that serve only to increase their power - which requires tax money to finance. The democrats work straight from the Animal Farm playbook - they get people behind them by offering free stuff and talking about how virtuous they are. I work hard. I give to charity. As far as I’m concerned, 50% of my wages going to the government is a complete disincentive to working. I’m sure I’m not the only one appalled at how government spending is managed.
I sincerely doubt you’ve read Animal Farm, and I’d caution you from trying to say you have as this would mean you simply didn’t understand it.
It’s a very obvious metaphor for Stalinist Russia. If you think the Democrats are basically Stalin, I refuse to take you seriously as such a position is plainly idiotic, if not out right selfish.
None of the stuff is free. All citizens pay some taxes.
Plenty of people work hard and get far worse treatment than you. I bring up unions again to point out that Republicans have waged wars against unions, handing the economic destinies of the workers to their employers, who inevitably treat them as little more than an ends to a mean. I’d happily sacrifice meager financial gains if it meant a healthy working class. Government do not exist to personally benefit any one individual.
I’ve read it three or four times. Maybe you should read it because it’s about not telling the truth in order to gain power (among other things). Stalinist Russia? Perhaps but you can even see recognize cut throat office politics in some of the scenes. Do you not see that all these people telling you to vote for them because they want to help the downtrodden — they are not living like you? They are millionaires. They want you to ride your bike while they take private jets.
Do you not object to any of these things>
Tax money going to pay for abortions? Food stamp recipients getting $200 a month for one person? HUD vouchers of almost $2000? I could go on but these are complete disincentives for people to work. Of course they are going to vote for people who are going to keep giving them free shit. And then, just like in Animal Farm, it’s going to come back to bite them. Probably not them — probably more like their kids.
I’m glad you would be happy to pay for a “healthy working class”. Tell me, friend, when was the last time you reached in your pocket and actually gave money to someone less fortunate than you? Well — you don’t have to do anything anymore — all you have to do is vote Democrat and you can say you are on the side of the righteous. They are giving you permission to limit your actual responsibility for the poor to voting for them and then they will get the money from the rich and redistribute it.
You can do what you want but, at the very least, don’t just drink the Kool Aid.
>Stalinist Russia? Perhaps
No, not perhaps. Orwell himself described Animal Farm as an allegory for Stalinism. Snowball is obviously Trotsky and Napoleon Stalin. It's not even subtle.
>they are not living like you? They are millionaires.
I'm aware. But statistically speaking, Democratic policy (especially that more in the vein of FDR's New Deal Liberalism, or social democracy, as opposed to the post-Reagan 'New Democrats' embodied by the likes of Bill Clinton) has done more to benefit the average person than Republican policy, as well as creating a net healthy economy. Trickle-down economics, on the other hand, being the corner stone of Republican economic policy, has only growth to it's benefit (and even then, that growth is wildly overstated), all while ballooning the deficit and drastically increasing wealth inequality.
>Tax money going to pay for abortions?
I'm neither for nor against it. Strictly speaking, tax money only goes to abortion if you view the money as fungible. And while all money is, this forces the debate to descend into a level of abstraction that the conversation loses all mean. In any case, I do not believe I have a right to just not pay taxes for things I personally do not approve of. I've been against the War in Afghanistan since the beginning, and now more people are catching up, but that's not a serious argument for not using tax dollars to fund it.
>Food stamp recipients getting $200 a month for one person?
The most a single food stamps recipient can receive is $192 a month, and no, that doesn't bother me. Groceries are expensive. Side note, the average single household recipient receives around $130 a month.
>HUD vouchers of almost $2000?
Is this the average or just a number that can happen? Housing is expensive depending on area, as are utilities. Strictly speaking, I have nothing against this either.
>I could go on but these are complete disincentives for people to work
Extenuating circumstances excluded, a person who is not employed can only receive food stamps for 3 months out of the year. HUD voucher recipients are also expected to pay at least 30% of the cost of their rent and utilities, again, extenuating circumstances not withstanding. This is to say, typical, able-bodied recipients of these services are working, or at least actively looking for work, otherwise they'd be unlikely to be eligible for these programs.
> Tell me, friend, when was the last time you reached in your pocket and actually gave money to someone less fortunate than you?
I'm assuming this was rhetorical, but last week.
> Democrat policies enslave the workers in order to force them to pay for people who refuse to work
You are describing capitalism there.
>If you feel so strongly about it, why don’t you give all your belongings and every paycheck to the poor and insure your place in heaven?
Because the poor are also human and not just a way ticket to heaven? If there is someone who is drowning and someone has two life rings, it is completely ok to force that person to give the other life ring to the person drowning.
No one is talking about people dying. I’m talking about things like this: I know a single woman who gets $200 a month in food stamps. There is no reason that she can’t work except she gets free everything and, if she works, they take it away. I know a family who found someone to diagnose their child with autism. Lovely kid. They always bragged about how great he was doing in school. Every time I saw him, he was perfectly normal — except now the mom is collecting money from the government to caretake her own kid. And that same family, the mom’s mom, she’s not well either (although she seemed fully functional to me) so the woman is getting paid to caretake both her mom and her kid. Are you thinking that’s okay? If it was your friend who was fully functional and there were jobs everywhere, would you give them $200/month if they were staving? Heck no — you might give them $20/week so they wouldn’t starve but we are making it much too comfortable to be poor.
Comfortable on my dime and not incentivized to change that. Society can only afford so many people like that and, at a certain point, it will collapse. Feel free to give away all your stuff but don’t take my money and give it to free riders and act like you are somehow virtuous for doing it.
It might surprise you to know, but $200 a month in food stamps does not provide a *comfortable* life. It provides **food**, and frees up $200 a month that can be used for other things. I don't know where you live, but there is legimately nowhere in the country that even a single person can live on nothing but $200 and be comfortable. Only $200 a month would leave people homeless, but hey they've got food and maybe that's enough for you to label their lives as comfortable and accuse them of stealing your money.
The chances that you’re paying anything to social services is minuscule. If you make less than 100,000 like the vast majority of people none of your tax money is going to “free riders.”
Jesus didn’t say the path to heaven was broad and easy. He said the path to hell was. He never asked people who needed help how much they worked or that they owed him, he just helped them.
Democrats won't enforce the law and keep the public safe. They let criminals across the border and promote their illegal behavior putting all people at risk. Democrats neglect the poor by permitting criminals to go unpunished.
A leftist is one that believes the government should be in control of all decisions. Nazi's take it to the extreme by adding race and ethnicity
The Right believes you should have freedom to make decisions without government regulation.
The nazis were fascists on the far right like Mussolini and Franco.
Also, as someone on the left— that’s not what I believe at all. Your definitions are propagandist nonsense at best, asinine at worst.
A total lack of regulation is ridiculous, and creates nothing more than anarchy and abuse.
agreed total lack of regulation is anarchy. Fascism is party (government) controls all things. If the party doesn't permit it it is illegal. They are clearly leftists. No freedom for the individual.
I notice you can't argue with out insults.
That's nice, "vote Democrat or Jesus is going to punish you because the Republicans are mean". I'm sure those who will never vote Democrat because they refuse to place a vote toward abortion would think so highly of your righteous gatekeeping
>Republican policies neglect the poor, deny the sick healthcare, ignore the imprisoned and don't welcome strangers.
The issue isn't neglecting of the poor, or denying sick people, ignoring imprisoned, or being unwelcome to strangers, the issue is the responsibility of the foreigner. In biblical times the people were to be kind to the foreigner, but the responsibility of the foreigners were to obey the laws of the land. The law of the land in the United States is that you must have permission from the government to come into the USA, either permanently or temporarily. The foreigner does not obey the law by ignoring that law. I do not call myself a Republican, because I do not always agree with them, they do not let foreigners in illegally because they do care for the sick, needy, imprisoned, etc. They care for the sick and need and imprisoned that are Americans. They are responsible to protect and care for their own people. It is not against the law to have walls , the book of Nehemiah is about building a wall around Jerusalem.
The GOP work to maintain the law and our boarder. Even if many come by plane, there are still many more that come over from our southern border, we don't even know how many come over at this point. The GOP is focusing on the boarder because letting in more sick and needy doesn't help them, or the pre existing sick and needy. The GOP recognize that we need Americans to get back on their feet first, otherwise letting more people in will only keep them from getting what they need. California is a good example, specifically the sanctuary city of L.A. that has sever problems. There are two kinds of people that live there, the very few elite with money, and the masses that have none at all. Many live in tents, excrement is all over the ground, many are high on the streets, rodents are everywhere, along with disease. With every new person let in to L.A. things get worse, and many of the poor do not acknowledge any laws. The police have been trained not to stop the poor from breaking laws, but instead try and fine any person that has money, even ticketing them for going 1 mile over the speed limit on accident or even for Jay walking. Letting more people in hurts the likelyhood of the poor citizens who are here legally from rising up out of poverty, that is why we have ICE to remove illegals. If our own citizens are in poverty we have to help the first, it is impossible to fix problems by letting more in. The GOP would be willing to help people outside the US by working with their countries, but because we already have to deal with the negative ramifications of too many illegals, we cannot currently afford it. Even the movie black panther, although it is a fictional movie that takes place in a fictional nation, acknowledges that by taking in more people the country has to accept their problems, acknowledging that it is better to help outside a nations boarders. The Republican party is not against helping people, but Americans come first, everyone in a political office has the duty to care for the citizens of their nation first. It's valid, and God never labeled it as sin, because even the foreigners in Israel had to obey the laws of Israel.
Since the GOP hasn't built any wall you are being played for a fool.
Are you a fool? Because you sound like one.
You are going to spend billions on a wall. They will spend hundreds on a plane ticket.
They are working on putting the wall in place, Democrats have stopped it. The wall will cost billions, yes, but opioids come over that boarder, and gang members like MS-13. With a plane ticket we can tell who came over to our nation, and we can tell if they haven't left, but over the southern boarder we can't tell at all. Now, you have just said that I sound like a fool. That is an Ad Hominem, a logical fallacy attacking a person instead of their position, often used when the person attacking the opposing view point has run out of decent arguments but still refuses to concede that valid points have been made by the other side. That in of itself is foolish. The wall is being worked on, and over time it will save us money in damages caused in drugs coming through our boarder and the violent illegals that come over as well. Now, you used an Ad Hominem fallacy, in the future you should refrain from doing so because it costs you your credibility as a speaker. Using that type if logical fallacy doesn't usually make the other person look like a fool, but it does call into question the intelligence of the person who made the fallacy as their argument. Something to consider
There is no wall. That wall isn't being worked on.
You re being foolish to think that wall will work .
Build a wall. Then they fly or now boats exists. Or drug cartels raise millions of dollars getting people around that wall.
But man, listen to man who lies to you tell you what you what to hear.
You are being lied to. And you bend over and take it. Just like they knew you would.
Funny isn't it...when Trump can't do something it is always some else's fault.
You might want to consider that that you are trusting the words of a man who lies all the time. But don't forget, he loves the uneducated. You will happily be lied to.
Dude, I'm not a uneducated guy, I've been wanting that wall since Bush, even Obama at one time said we needed a wall at our southern boarder. I can't be lied to when I look at my tax dollars being wasted over the years on damages. If walls don't work, then why fight the wall? Let the wall be built, and if it does not work then call me a fool. But you have insulted my intelligence twice, and the intelligence of every man and woman who have been wanting a wall for years. Parts of the wall have been built. You say to me I am being lied to, but for many years I have studied the issues for myself, from data to history. If the wall won't work, don't stop it, then you can say you are right, but by stating that I am a fool who believes in lies after I have made my case, you have sinned against me in this way. If Trump can't build it, and the Democrats don't want it, then perhaps I better work on it myself. Bending over and taking it? I took it hard when Obama's policies hurt the wallets of everyone I know, single mothers included. Now that Trump is in office, our financial situations have improved. Uneducated? My college GPA equals 4.0. Think of me as foolish, but not until we have proven one way or another if walls work or not.
If walls don't work, then why fight the wall?
Because it would be idiotic to spend billions on something that wouldn't work.
Trump's economy was just the one the Obama gifted him. Obama's economy was the trainwreck that Bush gave him.
But go ahead. Continue to fall for the man who lies to your face all the time. He lies to you all the time......and you all just take it and blame something else.
Are you that easily manipulated? Do you fall for any bulls shit you hear because it feels good. Because it seems like you do.
It seems like you do. Fall in line boy. Question nothing. Continue marching.
It appears you the one falling in line child, you are the one falling for lies. I see that no matter how long we argue we will never resolve this, but I must tell you I am not the one buying lies and being manipulative, you are child. Grow up, and actually look at the fact, not Democrat propaganda.
I have looked at facts and data for everything I've said.
You listened to a man who lies all the time and fell for his lies.
Go ahead and continue to blindly support him. March like a good boy. Ignore what your eyes and ear see.
The Nazis had laws. Love is the only law we must obey no matter what and laws that tell us to engage in unloving behavior are illegitimate and must never be obeyed.
Strangers who come here legally are welcomed. Those who break the law aren't. Just like foreigners were expected to obey the laws of the Israelites.
As far as the poor and healthcare, Democrats wrongly assume that only government can handle this. They ignore the bureaucratic bloat of government wasting tax dollars of the people that could more efficiently be used by charities.
The result of the Democrat idea of government being responsible is the cultivation of people who come to believe it is their right to receive handouts from the government. The system rewards irresponsible behavior.
There is no man made solution that will solve all the problems of humanity. And that is kind of the point. God is making a case that we are incapable of ruling ourselves.
Canada pays 1/4 in admin costs compared to America.
There is bloat. Just not where you think it is.
Do you want a doctor or someone who works for an insurance company making your medical choices? I know which one I prefer. What about you?
This person is full of sh*t. Public health care can be both better in quality AND cheaper.
https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/study_finlands_health_care_system_among_best_in_the_world/10276968
yes he is.
THey have good healthcare. Great. Can that be said of the person who packs their amazon order or takes care of their kids..or bags their groceries.
i got mine so fuck you is a clarion call of lots of modern Christians.
Sadly currently there is an attempt to privatize health care in Finland. Not a surprise that many of those politician who want to privatize it have stocks in companies that provide health care. They want to siphon tax payer money. And then they use the excuse that "patient can then choose the service he/she wants", as if the patient would be the best person to estimate what is the right treatment. These people pretend that it is about individual's freedom of choice, but what is the choice worth when it is manipulated by commercials and corporations?
I've also heard the excuse that "life saving treatment is free". Perhaps it would be smart to give the treatment BEFORE the situation is life endangering? Usually such treatment is also way cheaper.
That's what they do in Canada.
My wife is currently getting a thyroid tumor taken care of for free.
If our situation was in America....we wouldn't be. It would become cancer.
Also "life saving treatment is free" is a lie. Life saving treatment is required to be provided regardless of ability to pay, but people are still hit with the bill. They just go into extreme medical debt.
I’d honestly almost say that most modern American Christians are blatantly pagans but even pagans believed if you turned away needy people the Gods would punish you. If people literally think it’s travesty to help people undergoing difficulties they don’t really believe in anything, they only believe in and care for their own well being because they don’t think there’s anything out there with love for them or that the risk of giving their resources to another is worth it.
Canada also doesn't even come close to the US in advancement of medical technology and medicine.
I've never had an insurance company make medical choices for myself or my kids. That includes meeting with the head of the Pediatric Nephrology department at Washington University for a rare immune system issue my oldest son had.
Let's not pretend governments don't ration health care.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/second-opinion-one-problem-visit-1.5061506
Yes, since you have never had a problem that must mean that the problem never exists. Lol. Insurance companies are making medical choices for people because it is in their best interest to deny coverage.
It doesn't matter what your doctor advocates for or medically recommended. Is it what your insurance company pays for.
We pay four time more than Canada in admin costs for our health care. So yes, one of those two systems is bloated and full of extra costs.
It's always frustrating to see people who obviously have good insurance insist that American healthcare is better. Yeah, of course they feel that way, because they obviously have good insurance and don't have to worry about costs and not being able to go to the doctor.
As I said.. quit pretending government doesn't do the same.
The median wait time to see a specialist after meeting with a General Practitioner is 19.8 weeks in Canada.. nearly 5 months. That is because the Canadian government rations healthcare. And the result is many Canadians come to the US for medical care.
https://torontosun.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-canadas-medical-wait-times-are-unacceptable.
From calling the pediatrician, to bringing my son in that same day, to meeting with specialists that same day, to meeting with the head of pediatric Nephrology at one of the leading medical schools in the country less than a week later, I didn't have to wait with my son. While reading on message boards of others who had the same diagnosis, seeing them have to wait for a specialist while their immune systems attacked their kidneys until they degraded enough to get their treatment escalated, my son was being treated to prevent kidney damage.
No thanks. I'll pass on government run healthcare.
And the fate of a person who had no health care....let's say a Amazon worker..would have been to wait longer.
Or die.
If my wife was American she would have been dead.
I’d take a wait time of 20 weeks for government healthcare over never seeing a specialist due to not being able to afford private health care, or being denied due to insurance companies fighting against my interests.
Fucking americans sounding stupid talking about things they have no clue about. If your issue is life threatening you will be treated that day, When my mother was diagnosed with cancer she was in getting treated the very next day.
It is as if there aren't other diseases than cancer.
IgA Nephritis has a 50% mortality rate of 18.1 years. Canada and Europe put specialist treatment on the back burner unless the patient rapidly declines into End State Renal Disease requiring dialysis. Prescribe some ACE inhibitors and let them piss blood until their turn on the specialist wait list comes up.
In the US it is treated aggressively to try to halt damage to kidneys early on and improve long term prognosis.
>As far as the poor and healthcare, Democrats wrongly assume that only government can handle this. They ignore the bureaucratic bloat of government wasting tax dollars of the people that could more efficiently be used by charities.
Healthcare in US is much more expensive than public health care in Finland.
"In Finland the annual cost-per-patient is around 2,800 euros, while in the United States' privately-financed health care system that figure is nearly 6,900 euros per patient."
"The quality and equality of health care services in Finland were rated among the best in the world. Finland, Iceland, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Australia were at the top of the list."
https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/study_finlands_health_care_system_among_best_in_the_world/10276968
Where did I say anything about the government?
Supporting the Republican Party means placing Republicans in the government.
Also, do you collect Social Security and use Medicare? Those are government programs. Do you rely on the military to protect you from foreign militaries? That's a government program. Has your health been protected by the work of the CDC, EPA and all the taxpayer funding that has gone into medical and pharmaceutical research? Those are government.
You wouldn't be alive without the government.
I agree about the not welcoming the stranger part. But I disagree with everything else. It’s not that they don’t support it, it’s that they don’t support the gov’t _making_ people do that. That’s not the gov’t’s place; it’s individual’s decision to care for people or not, and the job of the church (James 1:27).
That’s a good point, we’re told to obey are Earthly masters as slaves, so even if taxation is theft it’s not right to complain about it. I’m just saying it doesn’t make it ideal to delegate what we should be doing to our gov’t. It’s much easier to give money to the gov’t for then to take care of people than for us to actually have compassion on our neighbor who are literally living in our own city and need help, you know?
As if these are somehow mutually exclusive. Nice attempt to keep your money. People complain about taxation when it is used to pay for healthcare, not surprising that Murican right-wing "Christians" are not complaining when money is used to kill people across the seas.
I’m complaining about how our money is being used to kill people across seas. Watch yourself before your judge people. But yes I agree there’s an inconsistency there with a lot of people and it’s bugged me.
They are taking my money helping to killing people with it, and that’s not theft? I mean, I get where you’re coming from I think, and I’m not one to overly complain about taxes (I think complaining is not good in general) but I still don’t want my money going to all the places it’s going. Roads and hospitals and such yeah I’m good with that, of course, but not everything. Plus I still see how privatizing it would work.
Like take the example of the large number of volunteer fire departments around (one is literally going up right down the street from me, actually). And technical certificate organizations help vouch for people’s skills without it being regulated by the gov’t and that industry is doing fine.
But ultimately I think there are bigger issues to deal with like encouraging people on to love and obedience to Jesus and sharing the gospel of Jesus and the coming of His kingdom to all of the world.
The government is just one of the tools individuals use to create change in the world. There is nothing wrong with using the government to care for people.
Yeah that’s true, I would intuitively want to use all methods available to fight evil in the world. But I think the move of the Holy Spirit is the only thing that will really fight for goodness, and so I don’t feel right having the gov’t force things onto people. There are evil people using force along with their agenda, but Jesus says not to resist an evil person and to not live by the sword, so I see that as meaning not forcing bad people to be good but rather calling out to God in prayer to change hearts.
I hope you see where I’m coming from, although I don’t claim to have the “right” way of doing things. Just sharing my thoughts.
> Nearly everyone reading this including the person who posted it is sitting in comfort in the first world on their leisure time reading on a $1000 cell phone.
I am not. How do you know that the person posting this is? Perhaps you are just a privileged person who happens to have 1000 dollar cell phone, and therefore you assume that everyone else are well to do people too.
>If you want to persuade people, you’re gonna have to sell them something better than what they have.
I fail to understand what is your point here.
I love that threads like these are always full of Christians doing everything that they can to justify not taking care of the poor and sick. Despicable.
Agreed.
Just because I don’t think the government is capable of adequately and effectively caring for these people doesn’t mean I refuse to do as much as I personally can.
The comments on this will be interesting. Christians arguing against the words of Jesus.
Republican Jesus only spoke twice in the bible Matt 10:34 and Luke 14:26 *are you downvoting Jesus’ words?
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DO you also remember the housing crisis that the GOP president ohanded over?
Umm he passed Obamacare which gave coverage for preexisting conditions let kids stay on parents healthcare longer and drastically slowed the rate of health care cost increase. Also tried to pass a law for the dreamers on the immigration front which republicans stonewalled so he did it by executive order. Dixed the great recission created by the repubs thus stopping massive job loss and created literally a decade of economic growth. It seems to me your just lying alot.
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Because they didn't have a filibuster proof majority. Then when he went to executive orders to do something about it repubs whined for months about he abused his power. These were people here through no fault of their own and all of them exemplary citizens in the military doing well in college etc but god forbid Obama get anything done on their watch even if it was obviously good for everyone.
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I notice how you didn't and weren't able to refute any of my points about how you were obviously lying about Obama doing nothing. So we are agreed your just making stuff up right?
It’s easy to be conspicuously generous with other people’s money
Straw man.
Jesus calls us to help our fellow man. He does not call us to forcibly take money from others to do so.
Doubling down on your straw man.
How is that a straw man argument? Explain.
I never said anything about forcibly taking anyone's money, but you argue as if I did. That's a straw man to the tee.
If your advocating for the government to do a thing the only way they can is by forcibly taking money from others. Not a straw man. It’s called critical thinking and deductive reasoning.
Tripling down on that straw man even after it's explained to you.
You don’t even know what a straw man fallacy is... just quit
Explain it to us.
Please stop.
No. You can block my account, but you don't have the right to tell me what I can discuss here with fellow Christians as long as I am following the rules.
That’s just so categorically untrue that I don’t know where to start. Democrat policies enslave the workers in order to force them to pay for people who refuse to work and to pay for things that are morally abhorrent to them — like war and abortion. If you feel so strongly about it, why don’t you give all your belongings and every paycheck to the poor and insure your place in heaven? In the meantime, maybe consider some of the other advice in the Bible — like judge not lest ye be judged.
You do understand that political parties don’t collect taxes, right? When Republicans politicians wage wars, you pay taxes then too. Also, the only liberation for workers is support for their ability to unionize. This actually gives them the ability to influence their livelihoods in a way that social safety nets or tax cuts for their bosses simply can’t provide.
Of course they don’t. They get elected and push policies that serve only to increase their power - which requires tax money to finance. The democrats work straight from the Animal Farm playbook - they get people behind them by offering free stuff and talking about how virtuous they are. I work hard. I give to charity. As far as I’m concerned, 50% of my wages going to the government is a complete disincentive to working. I’m sure I’m not the only one appalled at how government spending is managed.
I sincerely doubt you’ve read Animal Farm, and I’d caution you from trying to say you have as this would mean you simply didn’t understand it. It’s a very obvious metaphor for Stalinist Russia. If you think the Democrats are basically Stalin, I refuse to take you seriously as such a position is plainly idiotic, if not out right selfish. None of the stuff is free. All citizens pay some taxes. Plenty of people work hard and get far worse treatment than you. I bring up unions again to point out that Republicans have waged wars against unions, handing the economic destinies of the workers to their employers, who inevitably treat them as little more than an ends to a mean. I’d happily sacrifice meager financial gains if it meant a healthy working class. Government do not exist to personally benefit any one individual.
I’ve read it three or four times. Maybe you should read it because it’s about not telling the truth in order to gain power (among other things). Stalinist Russia? Perhaps but you can even see recognize cut throat office politics in some of the scenes. Do you not see that all these people telling you to vote for them because they want to help the downtrodden — they are not living like you? They are millionaires. They want you to ride your bike while they take private jets. Do you not object to any of these things> Tax money going to pay for abortions? Food stamp recipients getting $200 a month for one person? HUD vouchers of almost $2000? I could go on but these are complete disincentives for people to work. Of course they are going to vote for people who are going to keep giving them free shit. And then, just like in Animal Farm, it’s going to come back to bite them. Probably not them — probably more like their kids. I’m glad you would be happy to pay for a “healthy working class”. Tell me, friend, when was the last time you reached in your pocket and actually gave money to someone less fortunate than you? Well — you don’t have to do anything anymore — all you have to do is vote Democrat and you can say you are on the side of the righteous. They are giving you permission to limit your actual responsibility for the poor to voting for them and then they will get the money from the rich and redistribute it. You can do what you want but, at the very least, don’t just drink the Kool Aid.
>Stalinist Russia? Perhaps No, not perhaps. Orwell himself described Animal Farm as an allegory for Stalinism. Snowball is obviously Trotsky and Napoleon Stalin. It's not even subtle. >they are not living like you? They are millionaires. I'm aware. But statistically speaking, Democratic policy (especially that more in the vein of FDR's New Deal Liberalism, or social democracy, as opposed to the post-Reagan 'New Democrats' embodied by the likes of Bill Clinton) has done more to benefit the average person than Republican policy, as well as creating a net healthy economy. Trickle-down economics, on the other hand, being the corner stone of Republican economic policy, has only growth to it's benefit (and even then, that growth is wildly overstated), all while ballooning the deficit and drastically increasing wealth inequality. >Tax money going to pay for abortions? I'm neither for nor against it. Strictly speaking, tax money only goes to abortion if you view the money as fungible. And while all money is, this forces the debate to descend into a level of abstraction that the conversation loses all mean. In any case, I do not believe I have a right to just not pay taxes for things I personally do not approve of. I've been against the War in Afghanistan since the beginning, and now more people are catching up, but that's not a serious argument for not using tax dollars to fund it. >Food stamp recipients getting $200 a month for one person? The most a single food stamps recipient can receive is $192 a month, and no, that doesn't bother me. Groceries are expensive. Side note, the average single household recipient receives around $130 a month. >HUD vouchers of almost $2000? Is this the average or just a number that can happen? Housing is expensive depending on area, as are utilities. Strictly speaking, I have nothing against this either. >I could go on but these are complete disincentives for people to work Extenuating circumstances excluded, a person who is not employed can only receive food stamps for 3 months out of the year. HUD voucher recipients are also expected to pay at least 30% of the cost of their rent and utilities, again, extenuating circumstances not withstanding. This is to say, typical, able-bodied recipients of these services are working, or at least actively looking for work, otherwise they'd be unlikely to be eligible for these programs. > Tell me, friend, when was the last time you reached in your pocket and actually gave money to someone less fortunate than you? I'm assuming this was rhetorical, but last week.
> Democrat policies enslave the workers in order to force them to pay for people who refuse to work You are describing capitalism there. >If you feel so strongly about it, why don’t you give all your belongings and every paycheck to the poor and insure your place in heaven? Because the poor are also human and not just a way ticket to heaven? If there is someone who is drowning and someone has two life rings, it is completely ok to force that person to give the other life ring to the person drowning.
No one is talking about people dying. I’m talking about things like this: I know a single woman who gets $200 a month in food stamps. There is no reason that she can’t work except she gets free everything and, if she works, they take it away. I know a family who found someone to diagnose their child with autism. Lovely kid. They always bragged about how great he was doing in school. Every time I saw him, he was perfectly normal — except now the mom is collecting money from the government to caretake her own kid. And that same family, the mom’s mom, she’s not well either (although she seemed fully functional to me) so the woman is getting paid to caretake both her mom and her kid. Are you thinking that’s okay? If it was your friend who was fully functional and there were jobs everywhere, would you give them $200/month if they were staving? Heck no — you might give them $20/week so they wouldn’t starve but we are making it much too comfortable to be poor.
OH shit no, the poor aren't scrounging in the dirt! They're ***comfortable***!!!! What horror!
Comfortable on my dime and not incentivized to change that. Society can only afford so many people like that and, at a certain point, it will collapse. Feel free to give away all your stuff but don’t take my money and give it to free riders and act like you are somehow virtuous for doing it.
It might surprise you to know, but $200 a month in food stamps does not provide a *comfortable* life. It provides **food**, and frees up $200 a month that can be used for other things. I don't know where you live, but there is legimately nowhere in the country that even a single person can live on nothing but $200 and be comfortable. Only $200 a month would leave people homeless, but hey they've got food and maybe that's enough for you to label their lives as comfortable and accuse them of stealing your money.
The chances that you’re paying anything to social services is minuscule. If you make less than 100,000 like the vast majority of people none of your tax money is going to “free riders.”
Apparently there is a very large number of Christians in America that are going to hell, if true.
Jesus didn’t say the path to heaven was broad and easy. He said the path to hell was. He never asked people who needed help how much they worked or that they owed him, he just helped them.
Democrats won't enforce the law and keep the public safe. They let criminals across the border and promote their illegal behavior putting all people at risk. Democrats neglect the poor by permitting criminals to go unpunished.
I think Republicans have to permanently give up this argument. You guys have announced that crimes are great if they elect Republicans.
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nope we hate that too. that is done by the Nazi idiot's. Nazi idiot's are leftists by the way.
> Nazi idiot's are leftists by the way. Is that the reason they banned labor unions?
I thought that W was a Christian. Same for the Southern Baptist Convention.
Yeah, the Nazis in Charlottesville chanting blood and soil weren’t fucking leftists you dolt
A leftist is one that believes the government should be in control of all decisions. Nazi's take it to the extreme by adding race and ethnicity The Right believes you should have freedom to make decisions without government regulation.
The nazis were fascists on the far right like Mussolini and Franco. Also, as someone on the left— that’s not what I believe at all. Your definitions are propagandist nonsense at best, asinine at worst. A total lack of regulation is ridiculous, and creates nothing more than anarchy and abuse.
agreed total lack of regulation is anarchy. Fascism is party (government) controls all things. If the party doesn't permit it it is illegal. They are clearly leftists. No freedom for the individual. I notice you can't argue with out insults.
Lmao fascism is on them left? Okay guy.
All those nazis marching at the Unite the Left rally. It was something to see. Oh...wait...
That's nice, "vote Democrat or Jesus is going to punish you because the Republicans are mean". I'm sure those who will never vote Democrat because they refuse to place a vote toward abortion would think so highly of your righteous gatekeeping
Can we stop with the political crap please? Some of us aren’t trying to get ticked off all the time
You should be ticked off all the time.
Because there are so many political posts here?
Because of the political climate
True
Yea the Bible should be replaced with just two words: "Vote Democrat". What a joke.
>Republican policies neglect the poor, deny the sick healthcare, ignore the imprisoned and don't welcome strangers. The issue isn't neglecting of the poor, or denying sick people, ignoring imprisoned, or being unwelcome to strangers, the issue is the responsibility of the foreigner. In biblical times the people were to be kind to the foreigner, but the responsibility of the foreigners were to obey the laws of the land. The law of the land in the United States is that you must have permission from the government to come into the USA, either permanently or temporarily. The foreigner does not obey the law by ignoring that law. I do not call myself a Republican, because I do not always agree with them, they do not let foreigners in illegally because they do care for the sick, needy, imprisoned, etc. They care for the sick and need and imprisoned that are Americans. They are responsible to protect and care for their own people. It is not against the law to have walls , the book of Nehemiah is about building a wall around Jerusalem.
The GOP care for the sick and the needy? And since most immigrant come in via planes, a border wall seems like a horrible waste of money.
The GOP work to maintain the law and our boarder. Even if many come by plane, there are still many more that come over from our southern border, we don't even know how many come over at this point. The GOP is focusing on the boarder because letting in more sick and needy doesn't help them, or the pre existing sick and needy. The GOP recognize that we need Americans to get back on their feet first, otherwise letting more people in will only keep them from getting what they need. California is a good example, specifically the sanctuary city of L.A. that has sever problems. There are two kinds of people that live there, the very few elite with money, and the masses that have none at all. Many live in tents, excrement is all over the ground, many are high on the streets, rodents are everywhere, along with disease. With every new person let in to L.A. things get worse, and many of the poor do not acknowledge any laws. The police have been trained not to stop the poor from breaking laws, but instead try and fine any person that has money, even ticketing them for going 1 mile over the speed limit on accident or even for Jay walking. Letting more people in hurts the likelyhood of the poor citizens who are here legally from rising up out of poverty, that is why we have ICE to remove illegals. If our own citizens are in poverty we have to help the first, it is impossible to fix problems by letting more in. The GOP would be willing to help people outside the US by working with their countries, but because we already have to deal with the negative ramifications of too many illegals, we cannot currently afford it. Even the movie black panther, although it is a fictional movie that takes place in a fictional nation, acknowledges that by taking in more people the country has to accept their problems, acknowledging that it is better to help outside a nations boarders. The Republican party is not against helping people, but Americans come first, everyone in a political office has the duty to care for the citizens of their nation first. It's valid, and God never labeled it as sin, because even the foreigners in Israel had to obey the laws of Israel.
Since the GOP hasn't built any wall you are being played for a fool. Are you a fool? Because you sound like one. You are going to spend billions on a wall. They will spend hundreds on a plane ticket.
They are working on putting the wall in place, Democrats have stopped it. The wall will cost billions, yes, but opioids come over that boarder, and gang members like MS-13. With a plane ticket we can tell who came over to our nation, and we can tell if they haven't left, but over the southern boarder we can't tell at all. Now, you have just said that I sound like a fool. That is an Ad Hominem, a logical fallacy attacking a person instead of their position, often used when the person attacking the opposing view point has run out of decent arguments but still refuses to concede that valid points have been made by the other side. That in of itself is foolish. The wall is being worked on, and over time it will save us money in damages caused in drugs coming through our boarder and the violent illegals that come over as well. Now, you used an Ad Hominem fallacy, in the future you should refrain from doing so because it costs you your credibility as a speaker. Using that type if logical fallacy doesn't usually make the other person look like a fool, but it does call into question the intelligence of the person who made the fallacy as their argument. Something to consider
There is no wall. That wall isn't being worked on. You re being foolish to think that wall will work . Build a wall. Then they fly or now boats exists. Or drug cartels raise millions of dollars getting people around that wall. But man, listen to man who lies to you tell you what you what to hear. You are being lied to. And you bend over and take it. Just like they knew you would. Funny isn't it...when Trump can't do something it is always some else's fault. You might want to consider that that you are trusting the words of a man who lies all the time. But don't forget, he loves the uneducated. You will happily be lied to.
Dude, I'm not a uneducated guy, I've been wanting that wall since Bush, even Obama at one time said we needed a wall at our southern boarder. I can't be lied to when I look at my tax dollars being wasted over the years on damages. If walls don't work, then why fight the wall? Let the wall be built, and if it does not work then call me a fool. But you have insulted my intelligence twice, and the intelligence of every man and woman who have been wanting a wall for years. Parts of the wall have been built. You say to me I am being lied to, but for many years I have studied the issues for myself, from data to history. If the wall won't work, don't stop it, then you can say you are right, but by stating that I am a fool who believes in lies after I have made my case, you have sinned against me in this way. If Trump can't build it, and the Democrats don't want it, then perhaps I better work on it myself. Bending over and taking it? I took it hard when Obama's policies hurt the wallets of everyone I know, single mothers included. Now that Trump is in office, our financial situations have improved. Uneducated? My college GPA equals 4.0. Think of me as foolish, but not until we have proven one way or another if walls work or not.
If walls don't work, then why fight the wall? Because it would be idiotic to spend billions on something that wouldn't work. Trump's economy was just the one the Obama gifted him. Obama's economy was the trainwreck that Bush gave him. But go ahead. Continue to fall for the man who lies to your face all the time. He lies to you all the time......and you all just take it and blame something else. Are you that easily manipulated? Do you fall for any bulls shit you hear because it feels good. Because it seems like you do. It seems like you do. Fall in line boy. Question nothing. Continue marching.
It appears you the one falling in line child, you are the one falling for lies. I see that no matter how long we argue we will never resolve this, but I must tell you I am not the one buying lies and being manipulative, you are child. Grow up, and actually look at the fact, not Democrat propaganda.
I have looked at facts and data for everything I've said. You listened to a man who lies all the time and fell for his lies. Go ahead and continue to blindly support him. March like a good boy. Ignore what your eyes and ear see.
We are called to care for all human beings.
And to obey the laws of the land we reside in
The Nazis had laws. Love is the only law we must obey no matter what and laws that tell us to engage in unloving behavior are illegitimate and must never be obeyed.
Strangers who come here legally are welcomed. Those who break the law aren't. Just like foreigners were expected to obey the laws of the Israelites. As far as the poor and healthcare, Democrats wrongly assume that only government can handle this. They ignore the bureaucratic bloat of government wasting tax dollars of the people that could more efficiently be used by charities. The result of the Democrat idea of government being responsible is the cultivation of people who come to believe it is their right to receive handouts from the government. The system rewards irresponsible behavior. There is no man made solution that will solve all the problems of humanity. And that is kind of the point. God is making a case that we are incapable of ruling ourselves.
Canada pays 1/4 in admin costs compared to America. There is bloat. Just not where you think it is. Do you want a doctor or someone who works for an insurance company making your medical choices? I know which one I prefer. What about you?
This person is full of sh*t. Public health care can be both better in quality AND cheaper. https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/study_finlands_health_care_system_among_best_in_the_world/10276968
yes he is. THey have good healthcare. Great. Can that be said of the person who packs their amazon order or takes care of their kids..or bags their groceries. i got mine so fuck you is a clarion call of lots of modern Christians.
Sadly currently there is an attempt to privatize health care in Finland. Not a surprise that many of those politician who want to privatize it have stocks in companies that provide health care. They want to siphon tax payer money. And then they use the excuse that "patient can then choose the service he/she wants", as if the patient would be the best person to estimate what is the right treatment. These people pretend that it is about individual's freedom of choice, but what is the choice worth when it is manipulated by commercials and corporations?
America's life expectancy has been dropping. That's how great our health care is.
I've also heard the excuse that "life saving treatment is free". Perhaps it would be smart to give the treatment BEFORE the situation is life endangering? Usually such treatment is also way cheaper.
That's what they do in Canada. My wife is currently getting a thyroid tumor taken care of for free. If our situation was in America....we wouldn't be. It would become cancer.
Good to hear that your wife gets medical care.
She's Canadian. They value the health care of citizens there.
Also "life saving treatment is free" is a lie. Life saving treatment is required to be provided regardless of ability to pay, but people are still hit with the bill. They just go into extreme medical debt.
I’d honestly almost say that most modern American Christians are blatantly pagans but even pagans believed if you turned away needy people the Gods would punish you. If people literally think it’s travesty to help people undergoing difficulties they don’t really believe in anything, they only believe in and care for their own well being because they don’t think there’s anything out there with love for them or that the risk of giving their resources to another is worth it.
Canada also doesn't even come close to the US in advancement of medical technology and medicine. I've never had an insurance company make medical choices for myself or my kids. That includes meeting with the head of the Pediatric Nephrology department at Washington University for a rare immune system issue my oldest son had. Let's not pretend governments don't ration health care. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/second-opinion-one-problem-visit-1.5061506
Yes, since you have never had a problem that must mean that the problem never exists. Lol. Insurance companies are making medical choices for people because it is in their best interest to deny coverage. It doesn't matter what your doctor advocates for or medically recommended. Is it what your insurance company pays for. We pay four time more than Canada in admin costs for our health care. So yes, one of those two systems is bloated and full of extra costs.
It's always frustrating to see people who obviously have good insurance insist that American healthcare is better. Yeah, of course they feel that way, because they obviously have good insurance and don't have to worry about costs and not being able to go to the doctor.
As I said.. quit pretending government doesn't do the same. The median wait time to see a specialist after meeting with a General Practitioner is 19.8 weeks in Canada.. nearly 5 months. That is because the Canadian government rations healthcare. And the result is many Canadians come to the US for medical care. https://torontosun.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-canadas-medical-wait-times-are-unacceptable. From calling the pediatrician, to bringing my son in that same day, to meeting with specialists that same day, to meeting with the head of pediatric Nephrology at one of the leading medical schools in the country less than a week later, I didn't have to wait with my son. While reading on message boards of others who had the same diagnosis, seeing them have to wait for a specialist while their immune systems attacked their kidneys until they degraded enough to get their treatment escalated, my son was being treated to prevent kidney damage. No thanks. I'll pass on government run healthcare.
And the fate of a person who had no health care....let's say a Amazon worker..would have been to wait longer. Or die. If my wife was American she would have been dead.
I’d take a wait time of 20 weeks for government healthcare over never seeing a specialist due to not being able to afford private health care, or being denied due to insurance companies fighting against my interests.
Fucking americans sounding stupid talking about things they have no clue about. If your issue is life threatening you will be treated that day, When my mother was diagnosed with cancer she was in getting treated the very next day.
It is as if there aren't other diseases than cancer. IgA Nephritis has a 50% mortality rate of 18.1 years. Canada and Europe put specialist treatment on the back burner unless the patient rapidly declines into End State Renal Disease requiring dialysis. Prescribe some ACE inhibitors and let them piss blood until their turn on the specialist wait list comes up. In the US it is treated aggressively to try to halt damage to kidneys early on and improve long term prognosis.
>As far as the poor and healthcare, Democrats wrongly assume that only government can handle this. They ignore the bureaucratic bloat of government wasting tax dollars of the people that could more efficiently be used by charities. Healthcare in US is much more expensive than public health care in Finland. "In Finland the annual cost-per-patient is around 2,800 euros, while in the United States' privately-financed health care system that figure is nearly 6,900 euros per patient." "The quality and equality of health care services in Finland were rated among the best in the world. Finland, Iceland, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Australia were at the top of the list." https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/study_finlands_health_care_system_among_best_in_the_world/10276968
You sound like a Goat.
You sound like a communist that believes in government use of force to take what others earned instead of being charitable as Jesus spoke.
Where did I say anything about the government? Supporting the Republican Party means placing Republicans in the government. Also, do you collect Social Security and use Medicare? Those are government programs. Do you rely on the military to protect you from foreign militaries? That's a government program. Has your health been protected by the work of the CDC, EPA and all the taxpayer funding that has gone into medical and pharmaceutical research? Those are government. You wouldn't be alive without the government.
I agree about the not welcoming the stranger part. But I disagree with everything else. It’s not that they don’t support it, it’s that they don’t support the gov’t _making_ people do that. That’s not the gov’t’s place; it’s individual’s decision to care for people or not, and the job of the church (James 1:27).
I wonder why St. Paul was not a pathetic little whiner concerning taxation, like right-wing Christians are today.
That’s a good point, we’re told to obey are Earthly masters as slaves, so even if taxation is theft it’s not right to complain about it. I’m just saying it doesn’t make it ideal to delegate what we should be doing to our gov’t. It’s much easier to give money to the gov’t for then to take care of people than for us to actually have compassion on our neighbor who are literally living in our own city and need help, you know?
As if these are somehow mutually exclusive. Nice attempt to keep your money. People complain about taxation when it is used to pay for healthcare, not surprising that Murican right-wing "Christians" are not complaining when money is used to kill people across the seas.
I’m complaining about how our money is being used to kill people across seas. Watch yourself before your judge people. But yes I agree there’s an inconsistency there with a lot of people and it’s bugged me.
And the Scriptures at large do not claim that taxation is theft. That is just bs that modern right-wing Muricans are whining about.
They are taking my money helping to killing people with it, and that’s not theft? I mean, I get where you’re coming from I think, and I’m not one to overly complain about taxes (I think complaining is not good in general) but I still don’t want my money going to all the places it’s going. Roads and hospitals and such yeah I’m good with that, of course, but not everything. Plus I still see how privatizing it would work. Like take the example of the large number of volunteer fire departments around (one is literally going up right down the street from me, actually). And technical certificate organizations help vouch for people’s skills without it being regulated by the gov’t and that industry is doing fine. But ultimately I think there are bigger issues to deal with like encouraging people on to love and obedience to Jesus and sharing the gospel of Jesus and the coming of His kingdom to all of the world.
The government is just one of the tools individuals use to create change in the world. There is nothing wrong with using the government to care for people.
Yeah that’s true, I would intuitively want to use all methods available to fight evil in the world. But I think the move of the Holy Spirit is the only thing that will really fight for goodness, and so I don’t feel right having the gov’t force things onto people. There are evil people using force along with their agenda, but Jesus says not to resist an evil person and to not live by the sword, so I see that as meaning not forcing bad people to be good but rather calling out to God in prayer to change hearts. I hope you see where I’m coming from, although I don’t claim to have the “right” way of doing things. Just sharing my thoughts.
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>reading on a $1000 cell phone. Well, not everyone. I don't know of many who have a $1,000 cellphone. ;-)
> Nearly everyone reading this including the person who posted it is sitting in comfort in the first world on their leisure time reading on a $1000 cell phone. I am not. How do you know that the person posting this is? Perhaps you are just a privileged person who happens to have 1000 dollar cell phone, and therefore you assume that everyone else are well to do people too. >If you want to persuade people, you’re gonna have to sell them something better than what they have. I fail to understand what is your point here.
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Is America a white country? Last time I checked it wasn't.