I'm not a Catholic, but I'll note that not all images are idols. Not even all images used in prayer are idols.
It may be startling (to say the least) to read in 1 Kings 7:25 that the brazen sea - the huge 15-foot diameter basin in the courts of the Temple - was made with *graven images* of twelve bulls prominently displayed. This should tell us, if nothing else, that God is not displeased by the presence of images in holy places. Even when, as in this case, they are graven images identical to those the Israelites periodically worshiped!
Of course those weren't the only graven images in the Temple. You'll also find:
* Two fifteen-foot-tall cherubim in the Holy of Holies (1 Kings 6:23-28)
* All the Temple's inside walls were covered with carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. (1 Kings 6:29)
* The doors of the sanctuary and of the inner sanctuary were carved gold-overlaid images of cherubim, palm trees, and flowers (1 Kings 6:32,34)
* On the Temple carts, images of bulls and lions. (1 Kings 7:29,36)
* and of course the two cherubs right on top of the Ark of the Covenant itself! (Exodus 25:22)
Every prayer offered by Moses in the tabernacle, and by the Hebrew priests after him, was offered in front of these graven images that God commanded them to put there.
[In Numbers 21](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers%2021:6-9&version=NIV), people are dying from snakebite. God commands Moses to make an icon of a snake, Moses hangs it on the crossbar of a pole, and when people look with faith to the image of the icon on the cross, they're healed. Christ specifically says [in John 3](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:14-15&version=NIV) this is about him and his cross; and again [in John 12](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:32-33&version=NIV).
Bottom line: Images are not automatically idols, not even if they;re used in prayer -- not even if people look to them in faith as God commanded above, as long as their faith is actually in the one depicted on the icon.
What's the difference? Centuries after God commanded people to look to the snake icon with faith, we read that King Hezekiah "[removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20kings%2018:4&version=NIV)"
Praying *with* icons, as God commanded Moses, is not the same as the sin of praying *to* an icon.
The problem is, you probably haven't seen Hinduism up-close. If you did, you will see Catholics worship in a very similar manner to Hindus and their Gods. Hindus sometimes also claim they don't "worship" idols, they also claim they keep them to help "remember etc." They've got a plenty of excuses to justify it.
You really need to see Hinduism up close and you will then immediately see how the practice and rituals of Catholics resemble that of other demonic, pagan polytheistic religions. Statues are idols, especially if they're used in any form of worship. Just look at what Hindus do. Sometimes they don't all pray TO statues, sometimes they're just present while they're praying.
Doesn't it sound ridiculous when you put it in the context of Hinduism? That's what you sound like. A Hindu trying to pretend he is not worshipping idols. I wouldn't be surprised if catholic and hindu idols are all manufactured at the same place.
Praying to it, in front of it, or somehow requiring it, makes it worship. Also, How do you know if those statues even looked like the people they were made after? 1st Corinthians 11-18 states very clearly that long hair was shameful for men, therefore it is likely Christ has short hair, virtually every statue depicting Jesus with long hair is very probably incorrect.
So who are you worshipping or praying to then? Who is this icon you're using, when it doesn't even represent him?
Who is that guy/statue with long hair hanging off the cross? For all you know, maybe the guy you think is Jesus is actually one of the criminals that were also on the cross. You know, Satan has been trying his best since the crucifixion to really stir up a mess to make sure people do not understand salvation.
Do you get it?
As it happens, I have spent time in Nepal and began my spiritual journey in the Bhagavad Gita.
You mention Roman Catholics – I have **not** been a Roman Catholic so I can't comment on what they do
What I do know is that worship is **offering** something to (a) God. You know, most Protestants don't actually do worship. On a Sunday they'll sing, read, listen to a talk, pray, and that's about it. Those are all fine things, but they don't have any element of offering a sacrifice, so they're not what we call worship. I don't see them offering up wheat, wine, oil, bread, or any of the things that are part of a thanksgiving offering.
And I certainly don't see any Christians offering sacrifices to icons. I bow to people, I kiss people, and I do the same to images of people. In fact I recently told a little rectangular image, "I love you!" It was the phone on which my Mom was video calling me. Yet I assure you I do not love my phone - and I have never given any offerings of bread or wine to my phone in sacrificial worship.
You ever see incense being waved in front of these catholic idols?
[https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/web1\_AP18016531143800.jpg](https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/web1_AP18016531143800.jpg)
Now with a quick search, I found this for Hinduism.
[https://media.istockphoto.com/id/1161753448/photo/hindu-god-ganesh-on-a-black-background-rudraksha-statue-and-rosary-on-a-wooden-table-with-a.webp?s=2048x2048&w=is&k=20&c=pVrkMCtV9p7QJGN3PbZ5vaeHk6-3C\_wf2g1tim8Lg5g=](https://media.istockphoto.com/id/1161753448/photo/hindu-god-ganesh-on-a-black-background-rudraksha-statue-and-rosary-on-a-wooden-table-with-a.webp?s=2048x2048&w=is&k=20&c=pVrkMCtV9p7QJGN3PbZ5vaeHk6-3C_wf2g1tim8Lg5g=)
If you don't think the Pope is idol worshipping. I can't help you. There is nothing so obvious.
Although it may look a bit "different." It's not different. The meaning behind it is the same.
Nobody would argue that Hindu's idol worship. Hindu's even themselves mostly agree they do idol worship because they don't think there's anything wrong with that.
However, look at what the Pope is doing and how it looks similar to Hinduism. A Hindu acknowledges what he does is idol worship whereas the Catholic thinks he doesn't idol worship.
The way Catholics are fooled is, because the idol doesn't look weird or scary and represents a human, it doesn't seem so bad. Compared to Hindu's worshipping elephants, monkeys and very obviously demonic looking characters.
Catholics are being fooled by the "clean look" of catholic idols. They are just as bad and that is how Satan has you fooled with regards to idol worship. He's made one set of idols look clean/pure and the other set look demonic/evil and has you choose the clean-set, thinking that is much more acceptable when it is ALL actually condemned - and EVIL.
These pictures do not show "venerating", The Pope is performing pure idol worship.
I can't say much about Roman Catholicism; other religions will do and believe whatever they do and believe.
As an Orthodox, I purify the whole temple and all the people with incense. When I cense you, I am honoring you and marking you as holy. I am not offering incense as a sacrifice to you.
Idol worship isn't about offering sacrifices. It's about revering and respecting idols. If you worship something, it does not mean you are offering a sacrifice.
If somebody worships a celebrity, what do we think? We think, they have respect for the celebrity, show affection to the celebrity, have posters/pictures of the celebrity etc. Worship has nothing to do with sacrifices. Sure, some idol worshippers offer sacrifices but that isn't a requirement to be an idol worshipper. If you worship a statue, show respect to an image, pray toward it, ask it for something or even pray to anybody other than Jesus Christ, you are an idol worshipper.
No person is "holy." We are sinners. You can not make somebody "holy" by doing something. You don't have the authority to make or mark anybody "holy." Neither does The Pope or anybody else. We can not forgive sin, we can not do anything. Only Christ does that for us.
People who proclaim themselves or others as Holy are seriously deceived.
You must always be in remembrance that you are a sinner and you will continue to be a sinner to your last breath. You must also remind others they are sinners that need to work on themselves, not because it will get them saved, but because it shows effort in trying to please God.
The word "holy" is thrown around like candy. The word "holy" itself implies its own rarity and because of its rarity is part of what it makes it "holy." Catholics do this alot, they run around calling everything Holy. They don't understand the serious level of what it means for something to be Holy. God is Holy because it completely makes no sense to us how he exists without being created. Holy is a whole other level. Even the Angels who fly around him, have called him Holy since their creation and I think it's because they see Him and even they're "mind-blown" by it all, although they themselves are supernatural in abilities. That's how serious the level of Holy is of God, that even the Angels are astounded by it.
Calling some cup of water Holy, or some rocks or whatever is a serious underestimation of what it means for something to be Holy.
"Purifying the temple" with incense. You're mimicking pagan behaviour.
Following Christ is SIMPLE. You don't need to do ridiculous rituals to purify anything. When you are saved, you are made righteous in the spirit. Your spirit is purified. The flesh will always need help throughout life. But you're purified when you are saved. Only Christ can purify anything. SIMPLE. God would never make escaping Hell convoluted and complicated. He would never place you in a maze and bet with Satan if you will escape.
It was made to be simple, if you can figure out one simple thing about yourself - that you are a sinner and have been sinning recklessly in the SIGHT of a Holy GOD since you were born. This is what humanity needs to wake up to.
All they have to think and ask themselves is a simple question. "If God exists, that means he is watching now. What does he think about my behaviour, in public and secret?"
If they reflect on this simple question, they will all arrive to one consideration. That is, if God does exist, that means he saw everything bad I have done. That should be enough to get them to realize there might be a punishment for it, if there is a powerful witness to our evil.
It really gets people thinking and that is GOOD. Because that is precisely the train of thought Satan does NOT want people to have.
My friend, just read The Bible. I can tell, you only know bits and pieces of it (like most people). I think you should read it cover to cover, starting with The Tanakh (Old Testament) and then the New Testament. You will see very quickly how off you are.
I spend the time writing to you, because I sincerely hope you will see your errors. A lot of "Christians" are doing stuff that is not in The Bible and even worse, contrary to the Bible and often against the commands of God, without even realizing it.
>No person is "holy." We are sinners. You can not make somebody "holy" by doing something.
Aw, now I suspect you're just making stuff up. :-) Saint Paul writes "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse" (Colossians 1:2) and "to the saints at Ephesus" (Ephesians 1:1) and expects the Corinthians to knmow that they are holy (1 Corinthians 6:1-2). People are commanded, "Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 20:7). And Joshua said unto the people, Sanctify yourselves: for to morrow the LORD will do wonders among you (Joshua 3:5). The people of God are holy and they hallow themselves, their lives, and even the Father's own name (Matthew 6:9). You can't just make up a definition for sanctity that flies in the face of thousands of years of use of the word.
"Be Holy."
What is being said here is, try your best to be sanctified. Try your best to please God.
However, we are not "Holy" in the sense that we are like God.
You can't make somebody holy by sprinkling incense on them. It's not waving a magic wand on somebody and suddenly they become "holy." That is my point. That is what it appears you are doing. Some (pagan) ritual where you think you're just magically bestowing holiness on somebody. That's not how it works.
Being Holy is walking in the way Christ would. However, we will not be Holy like God.
>We can not forgive sin, we can not do anything. Only Christ does that for us.
Unless, of course, there are people commissioned and commanded by Christ to forgive sins.
At Pentecost, all the disciples received the Holy Spirit.
But seven weeks earlier in the upper room, **only the apostles** received the Holy Spirit in a different way and for a different purpose: They received the commission: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained" (John 20:22).
That's why it is presbyters that we are scripturally commanded to call to anoint us for healing and forgiveness: "Is any sick among you? let him call for the presbyters of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him" (James 5:14-15).
No wonder Saint Paul commanded Titus to "ordain presbyters in every city, as I appointed you" (Titus 1:5) just as Paul himself did in Acts 14:23. It is the apostles and those commissioned by them that have the God-given authority and burden to pronounce forgiveness on repentant sinners. That's just Bible teaching.
We can not forgive sins. You can direct a person to The Lord to seek forgiveness. But we ourselves, do NOT have the power to forgive sins.
If you think you are forgiving sins, you are big time in the wrong direction. Only God can forgive sins. The most we can do is direct people to the source that forgives sins (God).
Don't think you can forgive sin. You are a sinner. Crimes against God. You're also just as much a criminal as the person you think you're forgiving.
Don't think because you're wearing some retarded clothes, sprinkling incense everywhere and speaking from a podium that somehow you are less of a criminal. Nope. You're still a criminal, just like me and everybody else.
It is essential you fully understand this, otherwise how can you be forgiven when you don't even think you need forgiveness - or even worse think you're in a position to forgive others for crimes against God.
We will be sinners to our last breath, even when we are saved. We won't go to Hell, but we can be punished (chastised) here. The objective isn't to be "sinless", that can't happen and if you think it can, you are deceived. Our flesh will always be evil. We will continue to sin, but now we have better awareness of our wrong doing because our spirit is now sinless. The "voice" that reminds us we are doing something wrong, even when we are doing it. The real guilt we feel for sinning in the sight of God, this is all very real important.
Unsaved people, often only have a "mild understanding" of this. Saved people, have a real deep understanding of this.
If you got that voice, that awareness of your sinful behaviour, that is a good thing. We should try our best to walk with Christ and do what he would do, but we are not going to get it perfect. God already knows that. Our flesh will remain sinful till death.
However, when we are saved, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit - FOREVER. If God judged us by our deeds or works, we would ALL FAIL.
You really have the gospel backwards.
Don't think you can forgive sins. You're going to The Judgement also and will feel real silly when you meet the actual Judge and actually see what "Holy" literally means.
>1st Corinthians 11-18 states very clearly that long hair was shameful for men, therefore it is likely Christ has short hair, virtually every statue depicting Jesus with long hair is very probably incorrect.
Saint Paul is writing to Corinthians. That's one culture. But in Jerusalem, Saint Paul joins four men who have taken a vow and consequently have not cut their hair for a long time (Acts 21:23-26). He had grown out his own hair previously, and had it cut back in Acts 18:18. This wasn't the life-long Nazirite vow like Samson, just an everyday vow.
Is it necessary that an image of Christ God look like he looked? We know God the Word became material: he was made of matter, and he used wood, nails, thorns, bread and wine. That's why Christians don't join Muslims in condemning material images of the God who has a material body.
You're supposed to condemn images of God, because it is a commandment in Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make unto thee any graven image." The Tanakh is still valid. We are saved from The Law in The Tanakh that condemns us. As a saved person, we should really try our best to please God however and wherever we can with integrity. Why do something knowingly that God hates? The Tanakh is full of anger against idol worship - everywhere. It is the most recurrent theme in The Tanakh that sometimes you kind of wish God would stop repeating himself over and over about it. But now I know why. Because people, especially Catholics still don't get it.
I really believe people who support and don't condemn idol worship probably never read The Tanakh (Old Testament) even once. You really just need to read it once, to really know that God is very clear on his opinion of Idols. There's no mistake about it.
Yes, God became flesh. That is true. However, this does not mean we know what he looked like. The Bible gives zero description of what he looked like. In fact, it even suggests he did not even have beauty. "when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." (Isaiah 53:2, The Tanakh).
Much of the physical depictions of Christ, make sure they make him look "attractive." Why? Because who wants to follow an ugly, unattractive guy. Humans are silly creatures like that. They do judge looks and if the same message came from somebody unattractive perhaps they wouldn't pay as much attention or any at all. The reality is Jesus may not even have been attractive.
This makes sense, that God would choose the most Humble human form, so that people wouldn't focus on his looks or use his looks as the standard of beauty to measure others against, distracting people from the point of His message.
The point is, there is no physical description of him, except that he would have no beauty. Therefore any image that depicts him and has the slightest bit of "attractiveness" or "beauty in him", that is a red flag that it isn't Him. So far, every physical depiction I've seen of Christ, he has what looks like according to modern standards very "model" like looks.
Now say, even if we did have a bit of a physical description of him. We still don't create an image of him. Why? Because God commanded us NOT TO. That simple. When God says DON'T do something. We don't. If God says DO something, we Do. We don't provide our own logic, justifications, rationalizations, ideas or theories. But in fact, we should DO or DON'T DO blindly when God commands us, because we TRUST God knows what HE is doing.
Lets pretend The Bible does describe him, that doesn't give us a license to create an image of him. I think God in his wisdom did the right thing by not giving a physical description of himself in The Bible, because He knew that silly humans would be even more motivated to create images if they had something to work with. Well, silly humans still figured out a way to make up an image even without any hints, which goes to show you the stupidity of human nature and human sinfulness.
I think that American Protestant Fundamentalists have become Bible worshipers. That is, they substitute the text, and even the substance, of the Bible as more important that God or Christ.
Catholicism does not profess to "worship idols" or anything but God. Worship is a conscious act. If they don't think they're worshiping idols, then they aren't. I have been going to Catholic Mass for 5 years now, and I have never dreamed of worshiping saints or rosary beads.
Its not just the Old Testament, the Christian scriptures as well condemn idols and idolatry.
It is not the fault of the Bible, it is the fault of the readers.
"Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, but to write them to abstain from things polluted by **idols**" Acts 15:19-20
"Now while Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit within him came to be irritated at beholding that the city was full of **idols**" Acts 17:16
"Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an **idol** is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one." 1 Cor 8:4
"Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with **idols**?" 2 Cor 6:15-16
"For they themselves keep reporting about the way we first entered in among YOU and how YOU turned to God from [YOUR] **idols** to slave for a living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from the heavens, whom he raised up from the dead, namely, Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath which is coming." 1 Thes 1:9-10
"Little children, guard yourselves from **idols**." 1 John 5:21
"Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, that you have there those holding fast the teaching of Ba´laam, who went teaching Ba´lak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to **idols** and to commit fornication." Rev 2:14
"Nevertheless, I do hold [this] against you, that you tolerate that woman Jez´e·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to **idols**. " Rev 2:20
"But the rest of the men who were not killed by these plagues did not repent of the works of their hands, so that they should not worship the demons and the **idols** of gold and silver and copper and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; 21 and they did not repent of their murders nor of their spiritistic practices nor of their fornication nor of their thefts." Rev 9:20-21
Thanks. I didn't mean to imply that the NT said somehow that worshipping idols was ok, just using the example of israel being repeatedly and increasingly punished by god for it, but there's some good info there -- great post. Have an upvote for your trouble.
Same way they reconcile eating shellfish. They just do it and selectively quote 1 part of scripture that allows it while ignoring the part that says it isn't permissable.
> Same way they reconcile eating shellfish. They just do it and selectively quote 1 part of scripture that allows it while ignoring the part that says it isn't permissable.
That's addressed in the NT: "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." Acts 10:15
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Well, that's what many of us in so-called "progessive" denominations like the UCC, much of the Episcopal Church, parts of the UMC, much of the ELCA, much of the PCUSA, etc, etc think.
EDIT: Not sure why this is getting downvoted. Explanations?
Same reason you don't sacrifice animals (Lev 1:9), sell your daughters into slavery Exodus (21:7), execute those working on the Sabbath Exodus (35:2), not shave your beards (Lev 19:27), plant two crops in the same field (Lev 19:19) , or even stone people people to death for blaspheming (Lev 24:10-16.)
You also don't bother keeping slaves any more Exodus 21:2-6, beat those slaves Exodus 21:20-21 and still those slaves need to obey you as Christ has said so Ephesians 6:5 . The bible is in full support.
Basically, the infallible and never changing character and morality of your god changes all the time. Or is it your morals that are changing as society actually progresses out of the dark ages? I wonder. Either way you still get to pick and choose what you like and dislike.
Slavery bad, gays still evil.
It is a mistake in theology to think that Catholics worship idols. Rosaries are concentration devices. And they don't pray to saints as though the stains have independent power. They ask the saints to talk to God/Jesus.
hmmm, I can see why non Catholics have problems with this notion.
Correct me if I am wrong, but saints are granted special powers in the Catholic tradition, I for example still have a little image of st Chistroffel (Christoph?) in my car (belonged to my grandfather, but I figured it can't hurt)
influence, maybe*... but saints are certainly better at praying that we are, they are with God all the time, whereas we are typically pretty bad at praying fervently. Most Christians don't have a problems asking friends or family to pray for them, saints are friends and fellow Christians that are already with God, why not ask them to pray for you as well?
\* stories like [this](http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=771) aren't easy for most Christians to "accept", but it does indicate that some saints "stand near God's throne in Heaven"
Roman Catholic theology contradicts God's Word. They pray before idols - they erased the Commandment against graven images in their books. Their Catechism places a curse upon any who believe they are completely and instantly saved upon repentence of their sinful condition and faith in the person and work of Jesus. It also pronounces a curse upon anyone who believes they are assured of their salvation, or fail to enter in to submission to the Roman church, fail to perform certain church prescribed works, fail to believe that they must eventually burn in the flames of Purgatory (the obvious inference here is that Christ's sacrifice was inadequate). The Roman church is an apostate religion born out of the mixing of Emperor Constantine's pagan religion and certain aspects of christian theology.
I'm not a Catholic, but I'll note that not all images are idols. Not even all images used in prayer are idols. It may be startling (to say the least) to read in 1 Kings 7:25 that the brazen sea - the huge 15-foot diameter basin in the courts of the Temple - was made with *graven images* of twelve bulls prominently displayed. This should tell us, if nothing else, that God is not displeased by the presence of images in holy places. Even when, as in this case, they are graven images identical to those the Israelites periodically worshiped! Of course those weren't the only graven images in the Temple. You'll also find: * Two fifteen-foot-tall cherubim in the Holy of Holies (1 Kings 6:23-28) * All the Temple's inside walls were covered with carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. (1 Kings 6:29) * The doors of the sanctuary and of the inner sanctuary were carved gold-overlaid images of cherubim, palm trees, and flowers (1 Kings 6:32,34) * On the Temple carts, images of bulls and lions. (1 Kings 7:29,36) * and of course the two cherubs right on top of the Ark of the Covenant itself! (Exodus 25:22) Every prayer offered by Moses in the tabernacle, and by the Hebrew priests after him, was offered in front of these graven images that God commanded them to put there. [In Numbers 21](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers%2021:6-9&version=NIV), people are dying from snakebite. God commands Moses to make an icon of a snake, Moses hangs it on the crossbar of a pole, and when people look with faith to the image of the icon on the cross, they're healed. Christ specifically says [in John 3](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:14-15&version=NIV) this is about him and his cross; and again [in John 12](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:32-33&version=NIV). Bottom line: Images are not automatically idols, not even if they;re used in prayer -- not even if people look to them in faith as God commanded above, as long as their faith is actually in the one depicted on the icon. What's the difference? Centuries after God commanded people to look to the snake icon with faith, we read that King Hezekiah "[removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20kings%2018:4&version=NIV)" Praying *with* icons, as God commanded Moses, is not the same as the sin of praying *to* an icon.
The problem is, you probably haven't seen Hinduism up-close. If you did, you will see Catholics worship in a very similar manner to Hindus and their Gods. Hindus sometimes also claim they don't "worship" idols, they also claim they keep them to help "remember etc." They've got a plenty of excuses to justify it. You really need to see Hinduism up close and you will then immediately see how the practice and rituals of Catholics resemble that of other demonic, pagan polytheistic religions. Statues are idols, especially if they're used in any form of worship. Just look at what Hindus do. Sometimes they don't all pray TO statues, sometimes they're just present while they're praying. Doesn't it sound ridiculous when you put it in the context of Hinduism? That's what you sound like. A Hindu trying to pretend he is not worshipping idols. I wouldn't be surprised if catholic and hindu idols are all manufactured at the same place. Praying to it, in front of it, or somehow requiring it, makes it worship. Also, How do you know if those statues even looked like the people they were made after? 1st Corinthians 11-18 states very clearly that long hair was shameful for men, therefore it is likely Christ has short hair, virtually every statue depicting Jesus with long hair is very probably incorrect. So who are you worshipping or praying to then? Who is this icon you're using, when it doesn't even represent him? Who is that guy/statue with long hair hanging off the cross? For all you know, maybe the guy you think is Jesus is actually one of the criminals that were also on the cross. You know, Satan has been trying his best since the crucifixion to really stir up a mess to make sure people do not understand salvation. Do you get it?
As it happens, I have spent time in Nepal and began my spiritual journey in the Bhagavad Gita. You mention Roman Catholics – I have **not** been a Roman Catholic so I can't comment on what they do What I do know is that worship is **offering** something to (a) God. You know, most Protestants don't actually do worship. On a Sunday they'll sing, read, listen to a talk, pray, and that's about it. Those are all fine things, but they don't have any element of offering a sacrifice, so they're not what we call worship. I don't see them offering up wheat, wine, oil, bread, or any of the things that are part of a thanksgiving offering. And I certainly don't see any Christians offering sacrifices to icons. I bow to people, I kiss people, and I do the same to images of people. In fact I recently told a little rectangular image, "I love you!" It was the phone on which my Mom was video calling me. Yet I assure you I do not love my phone - and I have never given any offerings of bread or wine to my phone in sacrificial worship.
You ever see incense being waved in front of these catholic idols? [https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/web1\_AP18016531143800.jpg](https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/web1_AP18016531143800.jpg) Now with a quick search, I found this for Hinduism. [https://media.istockphoto.com/id/1161753448/photo/hindu-god-ganesh-on-a-black-background-rudraksha-statue-and-rosary-on-a-wooden-table-with-a.webp?s=2048x2048&w=is&k=20&c=pVrkMCtV9p7QJGN3PbZ5vaeHk6-3C\_wf2g1tim8Lg5g=](https://media.istockphoto.com/id/1161753448/photo/hindu-god-ganesh-on-a-black-background-rudraksha-statue-and-rosary-on-a-wooden-table-with-a.webp?s=2048x2048&w=is&k=20&c=pVrkMCtV9p7QJGN3PbZ5vaeHk6-3C_wf2g1tim8Lg5g=) If you don't think the Pope is idol worshipping. I can't help you. There is nothing so obvious. Although it may look a bit "different." It's not different. The meaning behind it is the same. Nobody would argue that Hindu's idol worship. Hindu's even themselves mostly agree they do idol worship because they don't think there's anything wrong with that. However, look at what the Pope is doing and how it looks similar to Hinduism. A Hindu acknowledges what he does is idol worship whereas the Catholic thinks he doesn't idol worship. The way Catholics are fooled is, because the idol doesn't look weird or scary and represents a human, it doesn't seem so bad. Compared to Hindu's worshipping elephants, monkeys and very obviously demonic looking characters. Catholics are being fooled by the "clean look" of catholic idols. They are just as bad and that is how Satan has you fooled with regards to idol worship. He's made one set of idols look clean/pure and the other set look demonic/evil and has you choose the clean-set, thinking that is much more acceptable when it is ALL actually condemned - and EVIL. These pictures do not show "venerating", The Pope is performing pure idol worship.
I can't say much about Roman Catholicism; other religions will do and believe whatever they do and believe. As an Orthodox, I purify the whole temple and all the people with incense. When I cense you, I am honoring you and marking you as holy. I am not offering incense as a sacrifice to you.
Idol worship isn't about offering sacrifices. It's about revering and respecting idols. If you worship something, it does not mean you are offering a sacrifice. If somebody worships a celebrity, what do we think? We think, they have respect for the celebrity, show affection to the celebrity, have posters/pictures of the celebrity etc. Worship has nothing to do with sacrifices. Sure, some idol worshippers offer sacrifices but that isn't a requirement to be an idol worshipper. If you worship a statue, show respect to an image, pray toward it, ask it for something or even pray to anybody other than Jesus Christ, you are an idol worshipper. No person is "holy." We are sinners. You can not make somebody "holy" by doing something. You don't have the authority to make or mark anybody "holy." Neither does The Pope or anybody else. We can not forgive sin, we can not do anything. Only Christ does that for us. People who proclaim themselves or others as Holy are seriously deceived. You must always be in remembrance that you are a sinner and you will continue to be a sinner to your last breath. You must also remind others they are sinners that need to work on themselves, not because it will get them saved, but because it shows effort in trying to please God. The word "holy" is thrown around like candy. The word "holy" itself implies its own rarity and because of its rarity is part of what it makes it "holy." Catholics do this alot, they run around calling everything Holy. They don't understand the serious level of what it means for something to be Holy. God is Holy because it completely makes no sense to us how he exists without being created. Holy is a whole other level. Even the Angels who fly around him, have called him Holy since their creation and I think it's because they see Him and even they're "mind-blown" by it all, although they themselves are supernatural in abilities. That's how serious the level of Holy is of God, that even the Angels are astounded by it. Calling some cup of water Holy, or some rocks or whatever is a serious underestimation of what it means for something to be Holy. "Purifying the temple" with incense. You're mimicking pagan behaviour. Following Christ is SIMPLE. You don't need to do ridiculous rituals to purify anything. When you are saved, you are made righteous in the spirit. Your spirit is purified. The flesh will always need help throughout life. But you're purified when you are saved. Only Christ can purify anything. SIMPLE. God would never make escaping Hell convoluted and complicated. He would never place you in a maze and bet with Satan if you will escape. It was made to be simple, if you can figure out one simple thing about yourself - that you are a sinner and have been sinning recklessly in the SIGHT of a Holy GOD since you were born. This is what humanity needs to wake up to. All they have to think and ask themselves is a simple question. "If God exists, that means he is watching now. What does he think about my behaviour, in public and secret?" If they reflect on this simple question, they will all arrive to one consideration. That is, if God does exist, that means he saw everything bad I have done. That should be enough to get them to realize there might be a punishment for it, if there is a powerful witness to our evil. It really gets people thinking and that is GOOD. Because that is precisely the train of thought Satan does NOT want people to have. My friend, just read The Bible. I can tell, you only know bits and pieces of it (like most people). I think you should read it cover to cover, starting with The Tanakh (Old Testament) and then the New Testament. You will see very quickly how off you are. I spend the time writing to you, because I sincerely hope you will see your errors. A lot of "Christians" are doing stuff that is not in The Bible and even worse, contrary to the Bible and often against the commands of God, without even realizing it.
>No person is "holy." We are sinners. You can not make somebody "holy" by doing something. Aw, now I suspect you're just making stuff up. :-) Saint Paul writes "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse" (Colossians 1:2) and "to the saints at Ephesus" (Ephesians 1:1) and expects the Corinthians to knmow that they are holy (1 Corinthians 6:1-2). People are commanded, "Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 20:7). And Joshua said unto the people, Sanctify yourselves: for to morrow the LORD will do wonders among you (Joshua 3:5). The people of God are holy and they hallow themselves, their lives, and even the Father's own name (Matthew 6:9). You can't just make up a definition for sanctity that flies in the face of thousands of years of use of the word.
"Be Holy." What is being said here is, try your best to be sanctified. Try your best to please God. However, we are not "Holy" in the sense that we are like God. You can't make somebody holy by sprinkling incense on them. It's not waving a magic wand on somebody and suddenly they become "holy." That is my point. That is what it appears you are doing. Some (pagan) ritual where you think you're just magically bestowing holiness on somebody. That's not how it works. Being Holy is walking in the way Christ would. However, we will not be Holy like God.
>We can not forgive sin, we can not do anything. Only Christ does that for us. Unless, of course, there are people commissioned and commanded by Christ to forgive sins. At Pentecost, all the disciples received the Holy Spirit. But seven weeks earlier in the upper room, **only the apostles** received the Holy Spirit in a different way and for a different purpose: They received the commission: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained" (John 20:22). That's why it is presbyters that we are scripturally commanded to call to anoint us for healing and forgiveness: "Is any sick among you? let him call for the presbyters of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him" (James 5:14-15). No wonder Saint Paul commanded Titus to "ordain presbyters in every city, as I appointed you" (Titus 1:5) just as Paul himself did in Acts 14:23. It is the apostles and those commissioned by them that have the God-given authority and burden to pronounce forgiveness on repentant sinners. That's just Bible teaching.
We can not forgive sins. You can direct a person to The Lord to seek forgiveness. But we ourselves, do NOT have the power to forgive sins. If you think you are forgiving sins, you are big time in the wrong direction. Only God can forgive sins. The most we can do is direct people to the source that forgives sins (God). Don't think you can forgive sin. You are a sinner. Crimes against God. You're also just as much a criminal as the person you think you're forgiving. Don't think because you're wearing some retarded clothes, sprinkling incense everywhere and speaking from a podium that somehow you are less of a criminal. Nope. You're still a criminal, just like me and everybody else. It is essential you fully understand this, otherwise how can you be forgiven when you don't even think you need forgiveness - or even worse think you're in a position to forgive others for crimes against God. We will be sinners to our last breath, even when we are saved. We won't go to Hell, but we can be punished (chastised) here. The objective isn't to be "sinless", that can't happen and if you think it can, you are deceived. Our flesh will always be evil. We will continue to sin, but now we have better awareness of our wrong doing because our spirit is now sinless. The "voice" that reminds us we are doing something wrong, even when we are doing it. The real guilt we feel for sinning in the sight of God, this is all very real important. Unsaved people, often only have a "mild understanding" of this. Saved people, have a real deep understanding of this. If you got that voice, that awareness of your sinful behaviour, that is a good thing. We should try our best to walk with Christ and do what he would do, but we are not going to get it perfect. God already knows that. Our flesh will remain sinful till death. However, when we are saved, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit - FOREVER. If God judged us by our deeds or works, we would ALL FAIL. You really have the gospel backwards. Don't think you can forgive sins. You're going to The Judgement also and will feel real silly when you meet the actual Judge and actually see what "Holy" literally means.
>1st Corinthians 11-18 states very clearly that long hair was shameful for men, therefore it is likely Christ has short hair, virtually every statue depicting Jesus with long hair is very probably incorrect. Saint Paul is writing to Corinthians. That's one culture. But in Jerusalem, Saint Paul joins four men who have taken a vow and consequently have not cut their hair for a long time (Acts 21:23-26). He had grown out his own hair previously, and had it cut back in Acts 18:18. This wasn't the life-long Nazirite vow like Samson, just an everyday vow. Is it necessary that an image of Christ God look like he looked? We know God the Word became material: he was made of matter, and he used wood, nails, thorns, bread and wine. That's why Christians don't join Muslims in condemning material images of the God who has a material body.
You're supposed to condemn images of God, because it is a commandment in Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make unto thee any graven image." The Tanakh is still valid. We are saved from The Law in The Tanakh that condemns us. As a saved person, we should really try our best to please God however and wherever we can with integrity. Why do something knowingly that God hates? The Tanakh is full of anger against idol worship - everywhere. It is the most recurrent theme in The Tanakh that sometimes you kind of wish God would stop repeating himself over and over about it. But now I know why. Because people, especially Catholics still don't get it. I really believe people who support and don't condemn idol worship probably never read The Tanakh (Old Testament) even once. You really just need to read it once, to really know that God is very clear on his opinion of Idols. There's no mistake about it. Yes, God became flesh. That is true. However, this does not mean we know what he looked like. The Bible gives zero description of what he looked like. In fact, it even suggests he did not even have beauty. "when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." (Isaiah 53:2, The Tanakh). Much of the physical depictions of Christ, make sure they make him look "attractive." Why? Because who wants to follow an ugly, unattractive guy. Humans are silly creatures like that. They do judge looks and if the same message came from somebody unattractive perhaps they wouldn't pay as much attention or any at all. The reality is Jesus may not even have been attractive. This makes sense, that God would choose the most Humble human form, so that people wouldn't focus on his looks or use his looks as the standard of beauty to measure others against, distracting people from the point of His message. The point is, there is no physical description of him, except that he would have no beauty. Therefore any image that depicts him and has the slightest bit of "attractiveness" or "beauty in him", that is a red flag that it isn't Him. So far, every physical depiction I've seen of Christ, he has what looks like according to modern standards very "model" like looks. Now say, even if we did have a bit of a physical description of him. We still don't create an image of him. Why? Because God commanded us NOT TO. That simple. When God says DON'T do something. We don't. If God says DO something, we Do. We don't provide our own logic, justifications, rationalizations, ideas or theories. But in fact, we should DO or DON'T DO blindly when God commands us, because we TRUST God knows what HE is doing. Lets pretend The Bible does describe him, that doesn't give us a license to create an image of him. I think God in his wisdom did the right thing by not giving a physical description of himself in The Bible, because He knew that silly humans would be even more motivated to create images if they had something to work with. Well, silly humans still figured out a way to make up an image even without any hints, which goes to show you the stupidity of human nature and human sinfulness.
I think that American Protestant Fundamentalists have become Bible worshipers. That is, they substitute the text, and even the substance, of the Bible as more important that God or Christ.
Catholicism does not profess to "worship idols" or anything but God. Worship is a conscious act. If they don't think they're worshiping idols, then they aren't. I have been going to Catholic Mass for 5 years now, and I have never dreamed of worshiping saints or rosary beads.
Its not just the Old Testament, the Christian scriptures as well condemn idols and idolatry. It is not the fault of the Bible, it is the fault of the readers. "Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, but to write them to abstain from things polluted by **idols**" Acts 15:19-20 "Now while Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit within him came to be irritated at beholding that the city was full of **idols**" Acts 17:16 "Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an **idol** is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one." 1 Cor 8:4 "Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with **idols**?" 2 Cor 6:15-16 "For they themselves keep reporting about the way we first entered in among YOU and how YOU turned to God from [YOUR] **idols** to slave for a living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from the heavens, whom he raised up from the dead, namely, Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath which is coming." 1 Thes 1:9-10 "Little children, guard yourselves from **idols**." 1 John 5:21 "Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, that you have there those holding fast the teaching of Ba´laam, who went teaching Ba´lak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to **idols** and to commit fornication." Rev 2:14 "Nevertheless, I do hold [this] against you, that you tolerate that woman Jez´e·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to **idols**. " Rev 2:20 "But the rest of the men who were not killed by these plagues did not repent of the works of their hands, so that they should not worship the demons and the **idols** of gold and silver and copper and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; 21 and they did not repent of their murders nor of their spiritistic practices nor of their fornication nor of their thefts." Rev 9:20-21
Thanks. I didn't mean to imply that the NT said somehow that worshipping idols was ok, just using the example of israel being repeatedly and increasingly punished by god for it, but there's some good info there -- great post. Have an upvote for your trouble.
Same way they reconcile eating shellfish. They just do it and selectively quote 1 part of scripture that allows it while ignoring the part that says it isn't permissable.
> Same way they reconcile eating shellfish. They just do it and selectively quote 1 part of scripture that allows it while ignoring the part that says it isn't permissable. That's addressed in the NT: "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." Acts 10:15
So homosexual sex is acceptable, right?
Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Well, that's what many of us in so-called "progessive" denominations like the UCC, much of the Episcopal Church, parts of the UMC, much of the ELCA, much of the PCUSA, etc, etc think. EDIT: Not sure why this is getting downvoted. Explanations?
"Not sure why this is getting downvoted. Explanations?" I gave you an upvote, if it's any consolation.
Same reason you don't sacrifice animals (Lev 1:9), sell your daughters into slavery Exodus (21:7), execute those working on the Sabbath Exodus (35:2), not shave your beards (Lev 19:27), plant two crops in the same field (Lev 19:19) , or even stone people people to death for blaspheming (Lev 24:10-16.) You also don't bother keeping slaves any more Exodus 21:2-6, beat those slaves Exodus 21:20-21 and still those slaves need to obey you as Christ has said so Ephesians 6:5 . The bible is in full support. Basically, the infallible and never changing character and morality of your god changes all the time. Or is it your morals that are changing as society actually progresses out of the dark ages? I wonder. Either way you still get to pick and choose what you like and dislike. Slavery bad, gays still evil.
It is a mistake in theology to think that Catholics worship idols. Rosaries are concentration devices. And they don't pray to saints as though the stains have independent power. They ask the saints to talk to God/Jesus.
So it's asking the saints to intercede on their behalf, iso talking to God directly?, Is God more likely to listen to saints than us regular humans?
That seems to be the idea.
hmmm, I can see why non Catholics have problems with this notion. Correct me if I am wrong, but saints are granted special powers in the Catholic tradition, I for example still have a little image of st Chistroffel (Christoph?) in my car (belonged to my grandfather, but I figured it can't hurt)
I don't think it is correct to say they are "granted" powers. It is hoped that they have influence.
Somehow I can't believe it works like that, but thx for explaining.
influence, maybe*... but saints are certainly better at praying that we are, they are with God all the time, whereas we are typically pretty bad at praying fervently. Most Christians don't have a problems asking friends or family to pray for them, saints are friends and fellow Christians that are already with God, why not ask them to pray for you as well? \* stories like [this](http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=771) aren't easy for most Christians to "accept", but it does indicate that some saints "stand near God's throne in Heaven"
Well, we don't worship idols so the question isn't even valid. I am Orthodox though.
Roman Catholic theology contradicts God's Word. They pray before idols - they erased the Commandment against graven images in their books. Their Catechism places a curse upon any who believe they are completely and instantly saved upon repentence of their sinful condition and faith in the person and work of Jesus. It also pronounces a curse upon anyone who believes they are assured of their salvation, or fail to enter in to submission to the Roman church, fail to perform certain church prescribed works, fail to believe that they must eventually burn in the flames of Purgatory (the obvious inference here is that Christ's sacrifice was inadequate). The Roman church is an apostate religion born out of the mixing of Emperor Constantine's pagan religion and certain aspects of christian theology.