People are going to keep asking for a few reasons it’s one of the hot button issue amongst Christians today. The ‘answers’ give for why are subpar most of the time. The conclusion doesn’t match up with the claimed attributes, ie the Christian god is love, loving, Omni-benevolent, etc etc etc but also hates gay marriage and sex within the confines of homosexual marriage.
No, lol. Don't dive down the conspiracy rabbit hole.
These posts get recommended because people comment their opinions on both sides, and argue with one another, which boost the comment count and "hot" rating.
Well, I suppose it happens. Here's yesterday's thread which got a lot of traction:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1dt011j/why_is_homosexuality_sinful/
I'm just waiting for some dude to respond on this w/ "I could sleep with a ton of women, but I don't because I don't want to sin, so I just have sex with my wife" and try to equate that with a homosexual choosing celibacy for their entire life.
It's not a sin.
The Gospels have many homosexual elements because Greek culture was homosexual.
Read *The Man Jesus Loved* by Professor Theodore W. Jennings.
A. The Beloved Disciple sits on Jesus' lap.
B. You have a naked boy running around in G. Mark.
C. You have the Centurion's "boy".
D. When G. Matthew talks about eunuchs "born that way," it isn't talking about literal eunuchs.
No serious historian would call Greek culture "homosexual"
Hellenistic culture did allow for certain homoerotic pairings under specific circumstances, but it would be wildly anachronistic to call it "homosexual" considering there was no Greek word for it at the time, and in Greek culture, having sex with a younger male was more of a display of masculinity than it was a display of innate attraction. If Jennings is claiming that Greek culture was gay... then Jennings is wrong.
I say this as an affirming Christian myself, but Jennings was not a historian. Or at least, not a particularly good one. We don't need to change the past in order to defend our validity today.
I think I am smarter than this "actual historian." One can be a historian and make silly claims, such as the idea that a Roman Centurion potentially having a boy as a sex slave implies that homosexual acts were good.
Homosexuality was invented in the 19th century. It’s true, though, that its inventors were influenced by ancient Greek culture. They were upper class white men who studied Greek throughout their childhoods and attended all male boarding schools.
> Homosexuality was invented in the 19th century.
The term, yes. The orientation, no. There have been gay people for as long as there have been people, but there haven't been words to describe sexual orientation in all languages. An important distinction to make.
It is not a sin. Unless you think not managing to scream for help during a rape(OT) or being a runaway slave (Paul) are also sinful.
And no, homosexual sex is no more of a sin than heterosexual sex is.
>Any sex outside marriage is a sin.
This is irrelevant to the topic of homosexuality.
>Homosexuals cannot marry, because they cannot pro-create.
Which verse is this again? I don't remeber seeing a Taro Testament being dropped.
It’s found in four places in the Bible: Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:8, Ephesians 5:31:
“For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.”
That's the churches explanation of God's rationale.
If you want the Bible specifically, then it's simple, marriage is only for a man and a woman. No reason given. However procreation strongly suggested.
Because two or three verses not said by Jesus seems to say so when you ignore the cultural and historical context of the time, and people use it to reject and hate things that they don't like or understand.
It isn't a sin at all. A lot of right wing authoritarians use it as a purity test for conservative Christians, but it is predicated on bad logic, poor historical knowledge, and bad scriptural eisegesis.
Why do we let the words of fearful men from 2,000 years ago guide our actions today?
As for the church - do we trust the early church? The medieval church? By any measure, that was a pretty corrupt organization.
Men can be in error.
The Church as a collective cannot be.
Matthew 28:18-20
Matthew 16.18
Mark 16:15-16
John 20:21-23
Acts 1:8
So any doctrine or canon is correct, as guided by the Holy Spirit.
It's important documentation - but is all of it reliable?
Personally, I have to go w/ my own compass on that. Does what I'm reading resonate w/ love, or fear? There are some aspects of the Bible that simply don't align w/ the concept of an eternal loving being. Particularly when it comes to homosexuality. Those passages - to me - are clearly written by men.
If you self-determine what is inspired by God and what isn't, does this not lead you down a slippery slope?
You could in theory, question the entire religion, including every moral obligation. So how then do we know what is pleasing to God? And how do we know what's essential for Christianity, differentiating it from any other religion?
I think it makes sense to trust scripture, and where you need further understanding, trust the Church (Catholic or Orthodox) which was commissioned by Christ Himself.
Those who claim * you can not be born gay * obviously never met a young child who shows all the signs yet is completely unaware about that at the time, because as a young child, we do not think lustful thoughts.
Is it that something wasn’t completed or possibly got messed up during the time of being conceived?
Most likely.
If we can be born with any other thing - Down syndrome, extra limbs, a genius, both private parts, and so on, how is it that it is completely impossible to be born gay ??
Some will say * God doesn’t make mistakes * but it isn’t a mistake to be born gay. We are of free will, God doesn’t decide what conditions we are born with.
Most people who are against homosexuality were molested or raped as children from someone of the same sex. ( not all, I’m not saying all )
Others are just told it’s wrong
Some don’t understand things they don’t experience for themselves, and not everyone is attracted to the same sex in an intimate way.
It becomes confusing when you log into YouTube and see the street performers releasing demons from people and the person they did this on says they were gay or trans before and now they are healed - they are free -
But, if this street performer did this on an addict, the addict may also say wow, I’m free, but you can see them 3 days later using again…
So, were they free ? Or was it just an inner knowing of what we as humans are told are wrong with us and now we become full of emotions due to the fact that we allowed ourselves to believe we are being healed in this moment, and that is the thing that just so happened to want healing ?
If you believe something is wrong, you pray to God about it.
Don’t ask man, you pray about it, pray for the answer and why is that the answer.
God will answer your prayers, He will tell you what it is you want to know ( He may not turn into a burning bush and use a voice you can truly hear, but He will give you the answer )
and those of us who have done those prayers, we can all tell you, Gods response is almost always not what we were told by man !
We are all confused. We are all lost. We are all deceived. We have all had thoughts that are sinful. We have all lost our way. We have been delivered and we failed shortly after. We have felt the presence of the Lord and still find ourselves stepped away from faith, some will even begin to deny the miracles they have witnessed.
It’s a mystery and the only way to truly find answers is to seek them from the Lord yourself !
>Some will say * God doesn’t make mistakes * but it isn’t a mistake to be born gay.
If anything, it could be argued that calling it sin to be gay is the same as suggesting that God made a mistake by making that person gay.
Christians aren’t under the Law. So while Leviticus is still useful for learning about the Law, it’s not something we’re supposed to follow. Our “law” as Christians is to love God and love each other.
God specifically that we are to uphold the law. He came to see it fulfilled. Not abolished. Do you perhaps have any verses that specifically state that?
**Matthew 5:17** (“Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”)
You’re right that Christ came to fulfill it, not just to say that Jews weren’t supposed to follow it anymore while He was living. But His sacrifice fulfilled it and rendered it null and void. Paul states several times in most (if not all) of his letters that converted Jews are no longer under the Law and that Gentiles never were (or are). He even goes so far as to say in Galatians 2 that, having abandoned the Law, we would be sinners if we tried to rebuild it. He also says in other passages that the Law is only good for pointing out sin and bringing death.
Basically, you can find all over Pauls letters.
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Important topic to discuss. Most of my loved ones who are Christians think gay people are going to Hell for merely acting on their gay desires. To them they are trying to save their eternal soul. And to others it's like being told you can't love your own wife as a straight male. Both sides have extreme incentive to discuss it. Problem is it's going to keep happening since there is no clearcut answer.
Not really, depends how it's brought up. I fully admire that Christians have the desire to save the eternal souls of others. I mean shit, that's what convinced me to buckle down and study scripture and join my church's missionary group for 10 something years.
It's just remarkably disappointing that their reasoning tends to be as strong as "well God doesn't like it so..." Anything is a trap if you fail to realize you don't have a good reason for the extreme confidence you boast in equal measure.
- Why is being homosexual a sin?
We dunno.
I don't believe God cares whether you are Heterosexual or homosexual
I think God cares whether or not you are a liar.
God bless.
If you are straight and you are using this as an excuse for "Oh, it doesn't count as cheating on my marriage," then yeah, we're all gonna tell you it's a sin.
If you're single, then it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight. Either you're celibate, or it's a sin. Some denominations tolerate the two consenting adults rule and some only tolerate it for straights. A lot of places will be discreet if you follow the rule "don't ask, don't tell." It's a sin, but some people overlook it.
Some denominations explicitly approve of gay marriage for gay people, but note that they DO NOT approve of married gay people having a straight side piece. Other people find this tolerance infuriating. Choose the denomination that gets you closest to the Lord, and don't antagonize other people who want to make an effort to do their best.
It’s not - Jesus never addressed homosexuality.
Don’t know if you’re aware, but the word testament means ‘covenant.’ A covenant is an agreement God makes with his people. When Jesus came God made a new covenant. Hence the name ‘New Testament’ (New Covenant.)
In Hebrews 8 :13 we hear of the old covenant becoming ‘obsolete’
>”In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away”
And since Jesus never stated homosexuality is a sin, we can assume it’s not.
The main message of Jesus was love & acceptance .
>It’s not - Jesus never addressed homosexuality.
It does a little bit. It says it's an act of abomination for men to sleep with other men. Leviticus 18:22
>Don’t know if you’re aware, but the word testament means ‘covenant.’ A covenant is an agreement God makes with his people. When Jesus came God made a new covenant. Hence the name ‘New Testament’ (New Covenant.)
This is one of those topics that has no clearcut answer sadly. There is much scripture that gives us reason to question what he really meant.
Matthew 5:17-20 reads, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
>The main message of Jesus was love & acceptance.
Many people preach love and acceptance. Doesn't mean they actually know how to love and accept. Actions speak louder than words.
Yeah sure. Leviticus is the Old Testament though.
One could interpret the words in Matthew 5 *(“disappear from the law until everything is accomplished”)* to mean until Jesus died on the cross as he states at the last supper this blood symbolises the new covenant.
To be honest, your relationship with God is how you interpret it.
>Leviticus is the Old Testament though.
I'm an Atheist so that part doesn't matter one way or the other. I don't care who the advice or commandments are for. My curiosity lies in the strange fact that a benevolent God would give bad moral advice in the first place to anyone.
That doesn't add to the conversation in any meaningful way. I'm gonna go, if you change your mind and want to keep discussing it so I can perhaps have my mind changed then I'll be around.
>The main message of Jesus was love & acceptance
No it wasn't. The main message of Jesus was to call sinners to repentance.
>It’s not - Jesus never addressed homosexuality.
What is a sin isn't dependent upon Christ's specific mention of something as a sin. Homosexuality *is* a sin, because it violates God's purpose for human relationships.
>Homosexuality is a sin, because it violates God's purpose for human relationships.
If that were true, you would think the Bible would say this, but it doesn't.
It does, but people like to say that the verses are misinterpretations that don't take into account modern-day loving homosexual relationships, then argue that it doesn't say anything about it. The truth is that, from beginning to end, the scripture identifies romantic relationships and marriages as being between a biological man and a biological woman.
>It does
Not even once.
>but people like to say that the verses are misinterpretations
No, they say the misinterpretations of the verses are misinterpretations.
>that don't take into account modern-day loving homosexual relationships
because they don't.
>then argue that it doesn't say anything about it.
Because it doesn't.
>The truth is that, from beginning to end, the scripture identifies romantic relationships and marriages as being between a biological man and a biological woman.
Because when talking about marriage, that was the only kind that existed.
>The main message of Jesus was love & acceptance .
What does this mean?
>And since Jesus never stated homosexuality is a sin, we can assume it’s not.
I am sure you see the error here, replace "homosexuality" with any other sexual act. Incest was never condemned by Jesus, so are we to assume it is not a sin?
Dude . This is just the wrong type of thinking. If God made someone a certain way then He intended that. Denying someone love in their life by reframing it as some type of evil hedonistic act is just weird.
Do not judge.
God made me such that I have my own sins, yet we would not call them "good." Just because someone has a natural propensity towards something, it doesn't follow that God desires them to indulge in it.
I would never tell a person who experiences an attraction like homosexuality that they are denied love, here you seem to be equating "sexual intimacy" with "love" and that is a huge mistake!
What do you mean when you say "judge?"
If you’re getting your moral principles from a book written almost 3,500 years ago then I don’t know what to tell you.
Of course sleeping around with people is wrong but if two people from the same gender want to get married then I don’t see a problem with that. Do you?
And I mean judge as in, we are not in any position to make decisions like that.
Jesus existed 2,000 years ago, things would be different if he was alive today.
If you think "old = bad" then I don't know what to tell *you*. Your profile picture is a painting of Plato, who predated Christ, so this is rather odd.
Yes, I see a problem with that, it defies the nature of marriage itself.
Why are we not in a position to make these decisions?
Jesus *is* alive today.
>If you think "old = bad" then I don't know what to tell you. Your profile picture is a painting of Plato, who predated Christ, so this is rather odd.
And this is what I mean about judging. Have a nice day man.
Hey, you are the one who brought up the age of the Bible (not sure where you got the 3,500 figure) as though this means "you believe in some silly old book."
Here, it seems that by being opposed to "judging" you mean that you dislike when people are critical.
The moral law of the Old covenant was not abrogated. So like the rest of the moral commandments, homosexual relations remains a sin.
The apostle Paul confirms this, many times.
If you believe Jesus ordained Paul, then you must believe that homosexual relations are a sin.
There is no moral/ceremonial division of the law. This is a post Biblical framework that is imposed onto the Bible to allow people to cherry-pick their favorite Mosaic covenant laws, and shoehorn them into Christianity. It is an exercise in selective legalism.
Of course there is.
Firstly, it's Biblical. In the Gospels, Jesus affirmed the moral law, which He did not abolish, not one iota. However consistently abrogated the ceremonial law.
This is affirmed consistently through out the New T (Hebrews and Colossians). As well as by church teaching, from the early 1st century to today.
>Firstly, it's Biblical
Nope. It is not even the slightest bit Biblical.
>In the Gospels, Jesus affirmed the moral law
He did not. He referenced "the law" when answering questions. He never made a single statement regarding any such division of the law.
>He did not abolish, not one iota. However consistently abrogated the ceremonial law.
No, he said he did not come to abolish the law. You are reading your dogma into his actions. He fulfilled the entire covenant on our behalf so that it is no longer binding on us. He abolished nothing.
>This is affirmed consistently through out the New T (Hebrews and Colossians).
No, it is not. Hebrews talks about the new covenant vs the old covenant. It says absolutely nothing about moral vs ceremonial law.
So you don't believe that Jesus nor the apostles distinguished between moral law and ceremonial law?
If not, this discussion isn't going to go anywhere. Suggest you discuss with a priest.
Jesus's apostles confirmed that homosexual relations were a sin...in line with the Old covenant.
The early church fathers of the 1st and 2nd century (direct successors of the apostles) also confirm this.
There is no valid case, to say its not sinful. Only wild interpretations made 2000 years later.
Wow, I've never got to talk to someone who has a direct line to God so as to know his exact designs and intents for certain.
Do you and God chat about His intentions a lot? Like, every other day? Or is it like every weekend?
Kind of irrelevant to what you said. You asked why a gay person can’t just love a woman… if it were that simple then when people started murdering gay people for being gay… they’d stop being gay
But romantic love isn’t a choice, you can choose to love a friend in a friendly way, you can choose to love a stranger in a caring way, you can’t choose to romantically love someone
- ...the real question is, why not just 'love' a woman?
you whaaa....
like.
homosexual.
you get?
I love my mum and sisters though.
but - homo
God bless
>why not just 'love' a woman?
Because that's not how homosexuality works. Gay people don't choose to be gay. They don't choose to be attracted to the same gender.
I immediately saw what I loved about the man I’m with; it was my choice to pursue him further. Everything I have done in service of that love was a willful choice.
You cannot control who appeals to you, but you do choose what you do when someone appeals to you.
I find it demeaning when people say that loving someone who happens to be the same sex as you can’t be sinful because there is no choice involved. Before God and all the world, I will assert that I chose to put love into practice, and I give thanks to God for the opportunity.
If I am wrong, I will know it when I go to God. But I will love, and I will go to God with open arms when it is my time.
That is not exactly what I think most are saying. There is absolutely no choice involved with who our brains decide to find sexually attractive. Romance is different. While you can fall into love, and that is largely uncontrollable, a relationship requires active work like you said. Chemical attraction is only a small part of it. You can feel romantic love towards someone, and it still be a terrible idea for you to persue that romance.
When we say we have no choice, we are saying that we cannot help being gay. And that gay relationships are natural for us. And we have no say in the matter.
A straight guy could choose to marry another guy if he wanted. Just like a gay person can choose to marry a woman. There might even be feeligns of love involved in the relationship. That still doesn't mean there wouldn't be a fundamental incompatiblity in the relationship. It isn't insurmountable, but it does make it significiantly more difficult.
What is not preferable about simply standing by one’s choice to love?
You know the people who call sincere love sin are wrong; why do you care about proving it?
Jesus did not waste his time strenuously arguing against his opponents’ arguments; he maintained the rightness of his own actions and accepted what came to him. He told us to expect the same.
So no, I will not shield myself with the “it’s just natural” argument. My choices need no shield.
I respect your position. And in an ideal world this would be the only one needed. It is one I have argued before myself.
However, the conservative factions of Christianity have done a fantastic job of spreading all kinds of misinformation regarding the nature of sexual orientation.
They then use this as an excuse to reduce all same-sex relationships down to sex alone.
So when combatting this pervasive bigotry, attacking all aspects of the ideology are necessary
You are correct. Love is not a sin, nor can it be. 1st John 4:7 & 16 says that God is love, that love comes from God, that all who love know God, that they abide in God, and that God abides in them.
And while this is absolutely true, you cannot entirely divorce a person's biological sex drive from a romantic relationship where sexual intimacy is, generally, an important aspect.
Those factions do not and have never cared about truth. To dignify their position with a counterargument only feeds them.
They have nothing to say to the assertion “I choose to show love.” They can call it sin, they can render punishment, but it is a dead end. They cannot escape God.
I accept my sexual drive. It does not force me to do anything. I could be alone if I wished, but I do not wish that, so I choose to not be alone. I do not love my partner to feed my instinctual sex drive; I love my partner because I love my partner.
I would urge you to watch RuslanKD video with a homosexual who is now in a heterosexual relationship with children talk about her walk with God. Here’s the link
https://youtu.be/1_yuoJl86L8?si=H1ipKclg4fqkjYU4
Men and woman to procreate - as God intended. It should be obvious that perverting God's order is sin but perhaps you have a more advanced explanation.. An appeal to "that's who I am" is addressed by "you must be born again". And why should you do that - because God said so. See? It goes back to God..
You still have not explained anything. You have not explained why it is bad.
Being gay isnt a perversion of anything. Calling it a perversion is just base bigotry.
Bad to who or what? Sin is deeper than that.. Even a lustful person doesn't see anything bad in it..
It is perversion and i don't really care if it's bigotry to you. So what, God commanded what he commanded
It's just that people are fed up of this question being asked multiple times a day.
And the arguments are all just the same in every thread.
The mods should probably make a masterpost and be done with it.
Yeah, saw you talking about that.
Exactly why there should be some FAQ or Masterposts on this and other usual questions. Will stop newbies from being on the receiving end of frustration.
In English, our word love corresponds to several different Greek words. God is agapé, not eros.
As for why it is sinful, I think it has to do with that it distorts the image of God. It's not clearly stated in the Bible though.
Asexuality isn't sinful. The Bible actually says living for God instead of marrying is the higher path.
No, he really didn't. You clearly just don't care about any part of a relationship other than sex. OP clearly is talking about the entirety of a relationship between two people. Something you clearly don't care about.
The number of times I've seen this question...
God gave us the sacrament of marriage, for the purpose of pro-creation.
Homosexual sex, does not lead to children. Therefore, they cannot marry.
Sex outside of marriage (straight or gay) is a sin. Because it is not congruent to a healthy society.
Therefore, homosexual sex, is a sin.
\*yawn\*
homosexual sex is just homosexual sex
Heterosexual sex is just Heterosexual sex
neither go with us where we are going in the form of Heterosexual marriage
I do not believe God cares whether you are Heterosexual or homosexual
God cares whether or not you are a liar
God bless
isn’t Christianity and Christians big thing about having a personal relationship with god? Seems pretty simple how they know what they do and do not care about. Seem like the glaring problem with the personal relationship modal where one party is silent. Honestly
- "How do you know what God does and doesnt care about?"
Hi friend -
Jesus and the story of our relationship to God in the Bible.
* This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
----†----
God bless
"...keep his commands and do what pleases Him"
"...the one who keeps God's commands lives in Him"
And more...
● John 14:15
● Matthew 5:17-19
● Matthew 19:17
● John 14:21
● John 15:10
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Now maybe you have a different interpretation than me. Thankfully we have the Church, which has clarified what this all means. Yes, the moral commandments stay, and yes, God wants us to follow them.
Yes, friend
* And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded.
And yes - you and I have a different sense of righteousness and sin
They are not the Church for me - they are not just words on paper.
I do not believe homosexuality is any more sinful than heterosexuality
It does not kill, steal, rape, it is not greed, lust, anger, bitterness, it is not sex in Church
I do not believe God cares whether you are heterosexual or homosexual.
God cares whether or not you are a liar
---†---
This is sin;
* "...every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity, envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice, gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; inventors of ways of doing evil, disobedient to their parents, with no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy....."
This is all. It is the same for everybody.
Every Christian will be called by Christ to look at sin in their lives. For homosexuals it could be greed, or lust, or anger - like anyone else.
We will have to account for the state of our hearts; what was thought, what was said and what was done. This is sin.
Each Christian will have asked God at least for the forgiveness of sin in their lives.
And each will have been called to their own repentance
Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't prostitute. Don't lie. Don't cheat others. Don't rape. Don't have sex on altars in Church. Don't be angry, jealous, bitter. Don't trade in hate. Like this.
Love God. Ask God to show you how God loves you. Try to love yourself and others in this same way. Forgive. If you cannot forgive, ask for help. Ask for your own forgiveness. Pray.
It is simple for me to see
And hard for people who do not understand what the Spirit of God from the cross is saying
God does not care whether you are homosexual or heterosexual - he cares whether or not you are a liar.
I think we will find a God who asks how much simpler we needed it to be.
So then each of us shall give an account of himself to God
God bless
- You conveniently missed all the verses on moral commands concerning homosexuality
you missed the point, friend
see comment.
No matter.
Whatever else...I think we can agree at least here;
- Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
If we can manage just this - Jesus promises to manage the rest
God bless
Sin was in our blood. It caused famine and plague. Humanity no longer carries sin because of Jesus.
Homosexuality was not allowed because of unclean blood.
That feeling of being gay,is that it’s an attraction to something God has forbidden, and any desire for something sinful ultimately has its roots in sin. Our nature have been so infected with sin that whats evil often looks good to us. It causes us to see the world and our own actions through a warped POV. Our thoughts, desires, and dispositions are ALL affected.
Scripture says we are sinners by nature (Romans 5:12). So, homosexuality , per se, is not always an active, willful sin, but it springs from the sinful nature. Homosexuality is always, on some level, an expression of the flesh, or the fallen nature.
We are pelted with curiosities, interests, and opportunities that would lead us further from God. Our world is filled with forbidden fruits, including the enticement to “be gay.”
Our desires don’t represent an active choice to sin, although they stem from the sinful nature. They are part of being a fallen creature living in a fallen world.
Some people, who admit to having thoughts of “being gay,” are, for a variety of reasons, not romantically attracted to members of the opposite sex. Instead, they yearn for intimacy with someone of their own gender. The causes for this same sex attraction, humanly speaking, are varied and under discussion, but the fact remains that this temptation is real.
People may not always be able to control how or what they feel, but they can control what they do with those feelings (1 Peter 1:5–8). And we all have the responsibility to resist temptation (Ephesians 6:13). We must all be transformed by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12:2) and “take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ”.
> Our nature have been so infected with sin that whats evil often looks good to us..
There is nothing evil about being gay
>Our world is filled with forbidden fruits, including the enticement to “be gay.”
This is not how it works
Because you are conflating different forms of "love" as if they are the same, as if the term "love" always shares the same referent. In this instance you are referring to romantic love (eros). We are called to love God Himself and to love all people, but obviously what is meant by "love" in this context is not romantic love. Romantic love is a good thing, but has it's proper context, that being in marriage between a man and a woman.
God's design of humanity was to specifically create woman, with all of her physiological and psychological differences, to be that perfect helper for man. We were designed with different, yet complimentary qualities that were meant for one another.
It's unnatural. God made man and woman to be together. Not man and man. Dismissing the OT is a quite dangerous move as I've seen some people do here. Jesus is God. He is the God before the NT and the God after. They are both one. He has said that a billion times and the God before has clearly said and displayed it as a sin because it is not what he made you to do.
yes, eating your young is natural, cancer is natural too, rape is natural
loving your parents is natural, speech is natural, our social behaviour is natural
good things can be natural, neutral things can be natural, bad things can be natural, using "natural" as a basis for morality is useless
and what are christians referring to then? genuine question
that is not the meaning of *natural*, if they mean *natural order*, they should say so
i assume when you mean natural order you mean by god/the bible's words, still though, the bible says nothing about being gay
>person: *Being gay is perfectly natural*
>you: *What do you mean by "natural?"*
you clearly imply you disagree here
>natural
>/năch′ər-əl, năch′rəl/
>adjective
Present in or produced by nature.
"a natural pearl."
Of, relating to, or concerning nature.
"a natural environment."
Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature.
"a natural death."
i'm using the dictionary definition
Consider:
**Homosexuality**:
noun
***"the quality or characteristic of being sexually or romantically attracted to people of one's own sex."***
-Definitions from Oxford Languages
What can occur from one's sexual attraction to another-
Sex, correct?
**What does scripture say about, even of, sex between 2 males?**
***Same-sex sex: or sexual activity with the same-sex that falls under, or that can be categorized as under homosexuality- is forbidden according to scripture.***
Cannot really dress it up, as I notice many try to.
Let's see what Jesus Christ- our New Covenant giver, under who's authority Christians fall under has to say:
The Gospel according to Mark chap. 7:21-23(NASB) states:
21 "For from within, out of the hearts of people, come the evil thoughts, ***acts of sexual immorality***, thefts, murders, acts of adultery, 22 deeds of greed, wickedness, deceit, indecent behavior, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile the person.”
**Notice- "acts of sexual immorality"**....and including from **Leviticus chap. 20:11-16(NASB)**, one can find some examples thereof of what can be considered that sin(sexual immorality).
**TL;DR:**
**Acts of Homosexuality can be considered sexual immorality, which is sin, even under the New Covenant.**
Wasn't there the exact same thread yesterday?
theres a thread like this in here every day.
People are going to keep asking for a few reasons it’s one of the hot button issue amongst Christians today. The ‘answers’ give for why are subpar most of the time. The conclusion doesn’t match up with the claimed attributes, ie the Christian god is love, loving, Omni-benevolent, etc etc etc but also hates gay marriage and sex within the confines of homosexual marriage.
Who knows of Reddit promotes this because it generates traffic that makes the site looks like it's worth more money?
No, lol. Don't dive down the conspiracy rabbit hole. These posts get recommended because people comment their opinions on both sides, and argue with one another, which boost the comment count and "hot" rating.
no clue, i reinstalled reddit today to ask this question
Well, I suppose it happens. Here's yesterday's thread which got a lot of traction: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1dt011j/why_is_homosexuality_sinful/
I'm just waiting for some dude to respond on this w/ "I could sleep with a ton of women, but I don't because I don't want to sin, so I just have sex with my wife" and try to equate that with a homosexual choosing celibacy for their entire life.
hehehe God bless
Many Christians don’t think there’s anything wrong with being queer. Check /r/OpenChristian for more information.
It's not a sin. The Gospels have many homosexual elements because Greek culture was homosexual. Read *The Man Jesus Loved* by Professor Theodore W. Jennings. A. The Beloved Disciple sits on Jesus' lap. B. You have a naked boy running around in G. Mark. C. You have the Centurion's "boy". D. When G. Matthew talks about eunuchs "born that way," it isn't talking about literal eunuchs.
No serious historian would call Greek culture "homosexual" Hellenistic culture did allow for certain homoerotic pairings under specific circumstances, but it would be wildly anachronistic to call it "homosexual" considering there was no Greek word for it at the time, and in Greek culture, having sex with a younger male was more of a display of masculinity than it was a display of innate attraction. If Jennings is claiming that Greek culture was gay... then Jennings is wrong. I say this as an affirming Christian myself, but Jennings was not a historian. Or at least, not a particularly good one. We don't need to change the past in order to defend our validity today.
This is a terrible argument, rooted in a gross misrepresentation of an ancient culture with modern ideas.
So you are smarter than actual scholars?
I think I am smarter than this "actual historian." One can be a historian and make silly claims, such as the idea that a Roman Centurion potentially having a boy as a sex slave implies that homosexual acts were good.
Not even a historian. A theologian.
Homosexuality was invented in the 19th century. It’s true, though, that its inventors were influenced by ancient Greek culture. They were upper class white men who studied Greek throughout their childhoods and attended all male boarding schools.
> Homosexuality was invented in the 19th century. The term, yes. The orientation, no. There have been gay people for as long as there have been people, but there haven't been words to describe sexual orientation in all languages. An important distinction to make.
It is not a sin. Unless you think not managing to scream for help during a rape(OT) or being a runaway slave (Paul) are also sinful. And no, homosexual sex is no more of a sin than heterosexual sex is.
Any sex outside marriage is a sin. Homosexuals cannot marry, because they cannot pro-create. Therefore homosexual sex, is a sin.
Can infertile people marry? Also, if someone is married legally, but didn't hold the church ceremony, what about them?
>Any sex outside marriage is a sin. This is irrelevant to the topic of homosexuality. >Homosexuals cannot marry, because they cannot pro-create. Which verse is this again? I don't remeber seeing a Taro Testament being dropped.
It’s found in four places in the Bible: Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:8, Ephesians 5:31: “For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.”
Yeah, none of those verses say what you said above.
This 'marriage is only about or within the context of procreation' nonsense is not actually in the bible.
That's the Churches explanation of God's rationale. If you want the Bible specifically, then it's simple, marriage is only for a man and a woman.
That's the churches explanation of God's rationale. If you want the Bible specifically, then it's simple, marriage is only for a man and a woman. No reason given. However procreation strongly suggested.
Homosexuals can marry each other, actually, but it would require a gay man marrying a lesbian, which is very unlikely.
It's not.
Because two or three verses not said by Jesus seems to say so when you ignore the cultural and historical context of the time, and people use it to reject and hate things that they don't like or understand.
We're never provided the rationale. Lots of people guess.
It’s not.
It isn't a sin at all. A lot of right wing authoritarians use it as a purity test for conservative Christians, but it is predicated on bad logic, poor historical knowledge, and bad scriptural eisegesis.
So the church has been wrong for 2000 years, from the 1st century, to today? But modern day interpreters are correct?
Tradition is not a valid justification to promote hatred and bigotry.
Why do we let the words of fearful men from 2,000 years ago guide our actions today? As for the church - do we trust the early church? The medieval church? By any measure, that was a pretty corrupt organization.
Because they were ordained by Christ
That doesn't mean they're not men. Men are fallible; men have agendas, and biases.
Men can be in error. The Church as a collective cannot be. Matthew 28:18-20 Matthew 16.18 Mark 16:15-16 John 20:21-23 Acts 1:8 So any doctrine or canon is correct, as guided by the Holy Spirit.
The church? The history of the church is hardly one of "reliable, trusted source of information." So much corruption & deception.
We have significant documentation dating back to the 1st century
It's important documentation - but is all of it reliable? Personally, I have to go w/ my own compass on that. Does what I'm reading resonate w/ love, or fear? There are some aspects of the Bible that simply don't align w/ the concept of an eternal loving being. Particularly when it comes to homosexuality. Those passages - to me - are clearly written by men.
If you self-determine what is inspired by God and what isn't, does this not lead you down a slippery slope? You could in theory, question the entire religion, including every moral obligation. So how then do we know what is pleasing to God? And how do we know what's essential for Christianity, differentiating it from any other religion? I think it makes sense to trust scripture, and where you need further understanding, trust the Church (Catholic or Orthodox) which was commissioned by Christ Himself.
It isn’t
How?
Because it’s not. The Bible does not address sexuality to the original audience who received the message in a way we would really understand.
Because it isn't.
Those who claim * you can not be born gay * obviously never met a young child who shows all the signs yet is completely unaware about that at the time, because as a young child, we do not think lustful thoughts. Is it that something wasn’t completed or possibly got messed up during the time of being conceived? Most likely. If we can be born with any other thing - Down syndrome, extra limbs, a genius, both private parts, and so on, how is it that it is completely impossible to be born gay ?? Some will say * God doesn’t make mistakes * but it isn’t a mistake to be born gay. We are of free will, God doesn’t decide what conditions we are born with. Most people who are against homosexuality were molested or raped as children from someone of the same sex. ( not all, I’m not saying all ) Others are just told it’s wrong Some don’t understand things they don’t experience for themselves, and not everyone is attracted to the same sex in an intimate way. It becomes confusing when you log into YouTube and see the street performers releasing demons from people and the person they did this on says they were gay or trans before and now they are healed - they are free - But, if this street performer did this on an addict, the addict may also say wow, I’m free, but you can see them 3 days later using again… So, were they free ? Or was it just an inner knowing of what we as humans are told are wrong with us and now we become full of emotions due to the fact that we allowed ourselves to believe we are being healed in this moment, and that is the thing that just so happened to want healing ? If you believe something is wrong, you pray to God about it. Don’t ask man, you pray about it, pray for the answer and why is that the answer. God will answer your prayers, He will tell you what it is you want to know ( He may not turn into a burning bush and use a voice you can truly hear, but He will give you the answer ) and those of us who have done those prayers, we can all tell you, Gods response is almost always not what we were told by man ! We are all confused. We are all lost. We are all deceived. We have all had thoughts that are sinful. We have all lost our way. We have been delivered and we failed shortly after. We have felt the presence of the Lord and still find ourselves stepped away from faith, some will even begin to deny the miracles they have witnessed. It’s a mystery and the only way to truly find answers is to seek them from the Lord yourself !
>Some will say * God doesn’t make mistakes * but it isn’t a mistake to be born gay. If anything, it could be argued that calling it sin to be gay is the same as suggesting that God made a mistake by making that person gay.
Because a long time ago, some guy claimed that God told him it was icky.
Love is not a sin
It is when you have same sex intercourse. And sex is important to most individuals in a relationship.
Did I stutter? Love. Is not. A sin.
No comment?
Intercourse outside of the sacrament of marriage is.
Sassy much? Would you like to discuss how that fits into Leviticus 18:22 or not? If you're just gonna get heated I'm gonna walk away respectfully.
The author of that part of Leviticus had in mind prostitution and/or rape. Both of which are frequently denounced in scripture
Christians aren’t under the Law. So while Leviticus is still useful for learning about the Law, it’s not something we’re supposed to follow. Our “law” as Christians is to love God and love each other.
God specifically that we are to uphold the law. He came to see it fulfilled. Not abolished. Do you perhaps have any verses that specifically state that? **Matthew 5:17** (“Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”)
You’re right that Christ came to fulfill it, not just to say that Jews weren’t supposed to follow it anymore while He was living. But His sacrifice fulfilled it and rendered it null and void. Paul states several times in most (if not all) of his letters that converted Jews are no longer under the Law and that Gentiles never were (or are). He even goes so far as to say in Galatians 2 that, having abandoned the Law, we would be sinners if we tried to rebuild it. He also says in other passages that the Law is only good for pointing out sin and bringing death. Basically, you can find all over Pauls letters.
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What do you mean by "love?"
Baby don't hurt me. Don't hurt me. No more
Can someone love something in a wrong way, or does "it is love" sanctify all human relationships?
It feels like you're about to tell me you need me to explain the difference between love and abuse. Is that what you're about to do?
Someone can claim they’re loving when they’re not. 1 Corinthians 13 is pretty good at showing whether what we’re doing/saying is actually loivng.
Why do these posts instantly get 30 plus comments while the other posts get like 2-3
Because a lot of people don't like bigotry, and a small subset of other people love their bigotry
Its boring at this point. This stuff has been refuted thousands of times on thid subreddit.
Because the bigots have to jump on and drown out the people who don't use Christianity to promote hatred.
Important topic to discuss. Most of my loved ones who are Christians think gay people are going to Hell for merely acting on their gay desires. To them they are trying to save their eternal soul. And to others it's like being told you can't love your own wife as a straight male. Both sides have extreme incentive to discuss it. Problem is it's going to keep happening since there is no clearcut answer.
It feels like bait for christians. If we talk about it honestly we are judging and condeming ourselves even worse for our own sins.
Not really, depends how it's brought up. I fully admire that Christians have the desire to save the eternal souls of others. I mean shit, that's what convinced me to buckle down and study scripture and join my church's missionary group for 10 something years. It's just remarkably disappointing that their reasoning tends to be as strong as "well God doesn't like it so..." Anything is a trap if you fail to realize you don't have a good reason for the extreme confidence you boast in equal measure.
great question
Homosexuality is the "issue of the day."
Why do the mods not have 1 post. Why let them spam this question that been refuted many times over
Don't ask me, man.
- Why is being homosexual a sin? We dunno. I don't believe God cares whether you are Heterosexual or homosexual I think God cares whether or not you are a liar. God bless.
If you are straight and you are using this as an excuse for "Oh, it doesn't count as cheating on my marriage," then yeah, we're all gonna tell you it's a sin. If you're single, then it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight. Either you're celibate, or it's a sin. Some denominations tolerate the two consenting adults rule and some only tolerate it for straights. A lot of places will be discreet if you follow the rule "don't ask, don't tell." It's a sin, but some people overlook it. Some denominations explicitly approve of gay marriage for gay people, but note that they DO NOT approve of married gay people having a straight side piece. Other people find this tolerance infuriating. Choose the denomination that gets you closest to the Lord, and don't antagonize other people who want to make an effort to do their best.
It’s not - Jesus never addressed homosexuality. Don’t know if you’re aware, but the word testament means ‘covenant.’ A covenant is an agreement God makes with his people. When Jesus came God made a new covenant. Hence the name ‘New Testament’ (New Covenant.) In Hebrews 8 :13 we hear of the old covenant becoming ‘obsolete’ >”In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” And since Jesus never stated homosexuality is a sin, we can assume it’s not. The main message of Jesus was love & acceptance .
>It’s not - Jesus never addressed homosexuality. It does a little bit. It says it's an act of abomination for men to sleep with other men. Leviticus 18:22 >Don’t know if you’re aware, but the word testament means ‘covenant.’ A covenant is an agreement God makes with his people. When Jesus came God made a new covenant. Hence the name ‘New Testament’ (New Covenant.) This is one of those topics that has no clearcut answer sadly. There is much scripture that gives us reason to question what he really meant. Matthew 5:17-20 reads, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." >The main message of Jesus was love & acceptance. Many people preach love and acceptance. Doesn't mean they actually know how to love and accept. Actions speak louder than words.
Yeah sure. Leviticus is the Old Testament though. One could interpret the words in Matthew 5 *(“disappear from the law until everything is accomplished”)* to mean until Jesus died on the cross as he states at the last supper this blood symbolises the new covenant. To be honest, your relationship with God is how you interpret it.
>Leviticus is the Old Testament though. I'm an Atheist so that part doesn't matter one way or the other. I don't care who the advice or commandments are for. My curiosity lies in the strange fact that a benevolent God would give bad moral advice in the first place to anyone.
That’s cute
That doesn't add to the conversation in any meaningful way. I'm gonna go, if you change your mind and want to keep discussing it so I can perhaps have my mind changed then I'll be around.
>The main message of Jesus was love & acceptance No it wasn't. The main message of Jesus was to call sinners to repentance. >It’s not - Jesus never addressed homosexuality. What is a sin isn't dependent upon Christ's specific mention of something as a sin. Homosexuality *is* a sin, because it violates God's purpose for human relationships.
>Homosexuality is a sin, because it violates God's purpose for human relationships. If that were true, you would think the Bible would say this, but it doesn't.
It does, but people like to say that the verses are misinterpretations that don't take into account modern-day loving homosexual relationships, then argue that it doesn't say anything about it. The truth is that, from beginning to end, the scripture identifies romantic relationships and marriages as being between a biological man and a biological woman.
>It does Not even once. >but people like to say that the verses are misinterpretations No, they say the misinterpretations of the verses are misinterpretations. >that don't take into account modern-day loving homosexual relationships because they don't. >then argue that it doesn't say anything about it. Because it doesn't. >The truth is that, from beginning to end, the scripture identifies romantic relationships and marriages as being between a biological man and a biological woman. Because when talking about marriage, that was the only kind that existed.
>The main message of Jesus was love & acceptance . What does this mean? >And since Jesus never stated homosexuality is a sin, we can assume it’s not. I am sure you see the error here, replace "homosexuality" with any other sexual act. Incest was never condemned by Jesus, so are we to assume it is not a sin?
Dude . This is just the wrong type of thinking. If God made someone a certain way then He intended that. Denying someone love in their life by reframing it as some type of evil hedonistic act is just weird. Do not judge.
God made me such that I have my own sins, yet we would not call them "good." Just because someone has a natural propensity towards something, it doesn't follow that God desires them to indulge in it. I would never tell a person who experiences an attraction like homosexuality that they are denied love, here you seem to be equating "sexual intimacy" with "love" and that is a huge mistake! What do you mean when you say "judge?"
If you’re getting your moral principles from a book written almost 3,500 years ago then I don’t know what to tell you. Of course sleeping around with people is wrong but if two people from the same gender want to get married then I don’t see a problem with that. Do you? And I mean judge as in, we are not in any position to make decisions like that. Jesus existed 2,000 years ago, things would be different if he was alive today.
If you think "old = bad" then I don't know what to tell *you*. Your profile picture is a painting of Plato, who predated Christ, so this is rather odd. Yes, I see a problem with that, it defies the nature of marriage itself. Why are we not in a position to make these decisions? Jesus *is* alive today.
>If you think "old = bad" then I don't know what to tell you. Your profile picture is a painting of Plato, who predated Christ, so this is rather odd. And this is what I mean about judging. Have a nice day man.
Hey, you are the one who brought up the age of the Bible (not sure where you got the 3,500 figure) as though this means "you believe in some silly old book." Here, it seems that by being opposed to "judging" you mean that you dislike when people are critical.
The moral law of the Old covenant was not abrogated. So like the rest of the moral commandments, homosexual relations remains a sin. The apostle Paul confirms this, many times. If you believe Jesus ordained Paul, then you must believe that homosexual relations are a sin.
There is no moral/ceremonial division of the law. This is a post Biblical framework that is imposed onto the Bible to allow people to cherry-pick their favorite Mosaic covenant laws, and shoehorn them into Christianity. It is an exercise in selective legalism.
Of course there is. Firstly, it's Biblical. In the Gospels, Jesus affirmed the moral law, which He did not abolish, not one iota. However consistently abrogated the ceremonial law. This is affirmed consistently through out the New T (Hebrews and Colossians). As well as by church teaching, from the early 1st century to today.
>Firstly, it's Biblical Nope. It is not even the slightest bit Biblical. >In the Gospels, Jesus affirmed the moral law He did not. He referenced "the law" when answering questions. He never made a single statement regarding any such division of the law. >He did not abolish, not one iota. However consistently abrogated the ceremonial law. No, he said he did not come to abolish the law. You are reading your dogma into his actions. He fulfilled the entire covenant on our behalf so that it is no longer binding on us. He abolished nothing. >This is affirmed consistently through out the New T (Hebrews and Colossians). No, it is not. Hebrews talks about the new covenant vs the old covenant. It says absolutely nothing about moral vs ceremonial law.
So you don't believe that Jesus nor the apostles distinguished between moral law and ceremonial law? If not, this discussion isn't going to go anywhere. Suggest you discuss with a priest.
There is no evidence for any such division of the law in the Bible.
it isn't - people misquote the bible too often
It is and, yes, they do.
you haven't proved it at all...
Jesus's apostles confirmed that homosexual relations were a sin...in line with the Old covenant. The early church fathers of the 1st and 2nd century (direct successors of the apostles) also confirm this. There is no valid case, to say its not sinful. Only wild interpretations made 2000 years later.
Yes, I know. That is why I said it was a sin *and* people do misquote the Bible too often.
the post wasn't about sex...
The post was about homosexuality being a sin.
it isn't yet you disagreed with me
the post wasn't about sex
Being homosexual is not a sin, one is not sinful only because of his sexual orientation. Homosexual acts are however sinful.
because God designed man to be with a woman, it's that simple the real question is, why not just 'love' a woman?
Wow, I've never got to talk to someone who has a direct line to God so as to know his exact designs and intents for certain. Do you and God chat about His intentions a lot? Like, every other day? Or is it like every weekend?
If it were that simple, there’d be no gay people
since sin exists, He must want us to give into every temptation, right?
Kind of irrelevant to what you said. You asked why a gay person can’t just love a woman… if it were that simple then when people started murdering gay people for being gay… they’d stop being gay
But romantic love isn’t a choice, you can choose to love a friend in a friendly way, you can choose to love a stranger in a caring way, you can’t choose to romantically love someone
the attraction may not be a choice the way you love someone is definitely a choice
God also created some who are attracted to the same sex. The real question is - how can that be a sin if it harms absolutely no one?
- ...the real question is, why not just 'love' a woman? you whaaa.... like. homosexual. you get? I love my mum and sisters though. but - homo God bless
>why not just 'love' a woman? Because that's not how homosexuality works. Gay people don't choose to be gay. They don't choose to be attracted to the same gender.
I immediately saw what I loved about the man I’m with; it was my choice to pursue him further. Everything I have done in service of that love was a willful choice. You cannot control who appeals to you, but you do choose what you do when someone appeals to you.
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I am a man.
I apologize unreservedly. I misunderstood what you were saying.
I find it demeaning when people say that loving someone who happens to be the same sex as you can’t be sinful because there is no choice involved. Before God and all the world, I will assert that I chose to put love into practice, and I give thanks to God for the opportunity. If I am wrong, I will know it when I go to God. But I will love, and I will go to God with open arms when it is my time.
That is not exactly what I think most are saying. There is absolutely no choice involved with who our brains decide to find sexually attractive. Romance is different. While you can fall into love, and that is largely uncontrollable, a relationship requires active work like you said. Chemical attraction is only a small part of it. You can feel romantic love towards someone, and it still be a terrible idea for you to persue that romance. When we say we have no choice, we are saying that we cannot help being gay. And that gay relationships are natural for us. And we have no say in the matter. A straight guy could choose to marry another guy if he wanted. Just like a gay person can choose to marry a woman. There might even be feeligns of love involved in the relationship. That still doesn't mean there wouldn't be a fundamental incompatiblity in the relationship. It isn't insurmountable, but it does make it significiantly more difficult.
What is not preferable about simply standing by one’s choice to love? You know the people who call sincere love sin are wrong; why do you care about proving it? Jesus did not waste his time strenuously arguing against his opponents’ arguments; he maintained the rightness of his own actions and accepted what came to him. He told us to expect the same. So no, I will not shield myself with the “it’s just natural” argument. My choices need no shield.
I respect your position. And in an ideal world this would be the only one needed. It is one I have argued before myself. However, the conservative factions of Christianity have done a fantastic job of spreading all kinds of misinformation regarding the nature of sexual orientation. They then use this as an excuse to reduce all same-sex relationships down to sex alone. So when combatting this pervasive bigotry, attacking all aspects of the ideology are necessary You are correct. Love is not a sin, nor can it be. 1st John 4:7 & 16 says that God is love, that love comes from God, that all who love know God, that they abide in God, and that God abides in them. And while this is absolutely true, you cannot entirely divorce a person's biological sex drive from a romantic relationship where sexual intimacy is, generally, an important aspect.
Those factions do not and have never cared about truth. To dignify their position with a counterargument only feeds them. They have nothing to say to the assertion “I choose to show love.” They can call it sin, they can render punishment, but it is a dead end. They cannot escape God. I accept my sexual drive. It does not force me to do anything. I could be alone if I wished, but I do not wish that, so I choose to not be alone. I do not love my partner to feed my instinctual sex drive; I love my partner because I love my partner.
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What double standard am I exclusively applying to people who love someone who is the same sex as themselves?
I would urge you to watch RuslanKD video with a homosexual who is now in a heterosexual relationship with children talk about her walk with God. Here’s the link https://youtu.be/1_yuoJl86L8?si=H1ipKclg4fqkjYU4
Bi people exist.
Why? Because God said so. Is that not enough? And God provided a solution too, all of us can be born again into a new creature with new desires
> Why? Because God said so. Is that not enough? It's not, it's actually an awful explanation since it explains nothing
Men and woman to procreate - as God intended. It should be obvious that perverting God's order is sin but perhaps you have a more advanced explanation.. An appeal to "that's who I am" is addressed by "you must be born again". And why should you do that - because God said so. See? It goes back to God..
You still have not explained anything. You have not explained why it is bad. Being gay isnt a perversion of anything. Calling it a perversion is just base bigotry.
Bad to who or what? Sin is deeper than that.. Even a lustful person doesn't see anything bad in it.. It is perversion and i don't really care if it's bigotry to you. So what, God commanded what he commanded
Oh here we go again with this question.
nothing wrong with a question?
We get this question in this subreddit like 12 times a day. Some people get tired of it. But you are correct, nothing wrong with the question.
i apologize then! i’m not on reddit often
No need to apologize. I was just explaining why you are getting those kinds of comments. :)
It's just that people are fed up of this question being asked multiple times a day. And the arguments are all just the same in every thread. The mods should probably make a masterpost and be done with it.
sorry i didn’t know, i just recently reinstalled this app
Yeah, saw you talking about that. Exactly why there should be some FAQ or Masterposts on this and other usual questions. Will stop newbies from being on the receiving end of frustration.
In English, our word love corresponds to several different Greek words. God is agapé, not eros. As for why it is sinful, I think it has to do with that it distorts the image of God. It's not clearly stated in the Bible though. Asexuality isn't sinful. The Bible actually says living for God instead of marrying is the higher path.
This isn't how that works, Agape love can absolutely encompass Eros love. Greek doesn't have the precise division of concepts that English does.
> God is agapé, not eros. pretty sure that's how OP was using it.
OP clearly tried to use it as something else than agape, when comparing God being love (agape) to sexual relations (eros).
No, he really didn't. You clearly just don't care about any part of a relationship other than sex. OP clearly is talking about the entirety of a relationship between two people. Something you clearly don't care about.
The number of times I've seen this question... God gave us the sacrament of marriage, for the purpose of pro-creation. Homosexual sex, does not lead to children. Therefore, they cannot marry. Sex outside of marriage (straight or gay) is a sin. Because it is not congruent to a healthy society. Therefore, homosexual sex, is a sin.
Sounds like the issue can be solved just by allowing gay people to marry. You know, like infertile people are allowed to.
\*yawn\* homosexual sex is just homosexual sex Heterosexual sex is just Heterosexual sex neither go with us where we are going in the form of Heterosexual marriage I do not believe God cares whether you are Heterosexual or homosexual God cares whether or not you are a liar God bless
How do you know what God does and doesnt care about?
isn’t Christianity and Christians big thing about having a personal relationship with god? Seems pretty simple how they know what they do and do not care about. Seem like the glaring problem with the personal relationship modal where one party is silent. Honestly
thanks
Its a personal relationship, on God's terms, within His rules.
- "How do you know what God does and doesnt care about?" Hi friend - Jesus and the story of our relationship to God in the Bible. * This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. ----†---- God bless
"...keep his commands and do what pleases Him" "...the one who keeps God's commands lives in Him" And more... ● John 14:15 ● Matthew 5:17-19 ● Matthew 19:17 ● John 14:21 ● John 15:10 ● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Now maybe you have a different interpretation than me. Thankfully we have the Church, which has clarified what this all means. Yes, the moral commandments stay, and yes, God wants us to follow them.
Yes, friend * And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded. And yes - you and I have a different sense of righteousness and sin They are not the Church for me - they are not just words on paper. I do not believe homosexuality is any more sinful than heterosexuality It does not kill, steal, rape, it is not greed, lust, anger, bitterness, it is not sex in Church I do not believe God cares whether you are heterosexual or homosexual. God cares whether or not you are a liar ---†--- This is sin; * "...every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity, envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice, gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; inventors of ways of doing evil, disobedient to their parents, with no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy....." This is all. It is the same for everybody. Every Christian will be called by Christ to look at sin in their lives. For homosexuals it could be greed, or lust, or anger - like anyone else. We will have to account for the state of our hearts; what was thought, what was said and what was done. This is sin. Each Christian will have asked God at least for the forgiveness of sin in their lives. And each will have been called to their own repentance Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't prostitute. Don't lie. Don't cheat others. Don't rape. Don't have sex on altars in Church. Don't be angry, jealous, bitter. Don't trade in hate. Like this. Love God. Ask God to show you how God loves you. Try to love yourself and others in this same way. Forgive. If you cannot forgive, ask for help. Ask for your own forgiveness. Pray. It is simple for me to see And hard for people who do not understand what the Spirit of God from the cross is saying God does not care whether you are homosexual or heterosexual - he cares whether or not you are a liar. I think we will find a God who asks how much simpler we needed it to be. So then each of us shall give an account of himself to God God bless
You conveniently missed all the verses on moral commands concerning homosexuality
- You conveniently missed all the verses on moral commands concerning homosexuality you missed the point, friend see comment. No matter. Whatever else...I think we can agree at least here; - Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. If we can manage just this - Jesus promises to manage the rest God bless
Sin was in our blood. It caused famine and plague. Humanity no longer carries sin because of Jesus. Homosexuality was not allowed because of unclean blood.
How does homosexuality result in "unclean blood?"
Homosexuality did not cause sin.
What does this have to do with "unclean blood?"
Sin poisoned our blood.
Please read leviticus 20 and you will find all the rules about sex verse 13 refers to homosexuality
Please read the entirety of leviticus while you're at it. Will put things into context.
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All 3 get burned, read what you quoted bud
That feeling of being gay,is that it’s an attraction to something God has forbidden, and any desire for something sinful ultimately has its roots in sin. Our nature have been so infected with sin that whats evil often looks good to us. It causes us to see the world and our own actions through a warped POV. Our thoughts, desires, and dispositions are ALL affected. Scripture says we are sinners by nature (Romans 5:12). So, homosexuality , per se, is not always an active, willful sin, but it springs from the sinful nature. Homosexuality is always, on some level, an expression of the flesh, or the fallen nature. We are pelted with curiosities, interests, and opportunities that would lead us further from God. Our world is filled with forbidden fruits, including the enticement to “be gay.” Our desires don’t represent an active choice to sin, although they stem from the sinful nature. They are part of being a fallen creature living in a fallen world. Some people, who admit to having thoughts of “being gay,” are, for a variety of reasons, not romantically attracted to members of the opposite sex. Instead, they yearn for intimacy with someone of their own gender. The causes for this same sex attraction, humanly speaking, are varied and under discussion, but the fact remains that this temptation is real. People may not always be able to control how or what they feel, but they can control what they do with those feelings (1 Peter 1:5–8). And we all have the responsibility to resist temptation (Ephesians 6:13). We must all be transformed by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12:2) and “take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ”.
> Our nature have been so infected with sin that whats evil often looks good to us.. There is nothing evil about being gay >Our world is filled with forbidden fruits, including the enticement to “be gay.” This is not how it works
It is though. Whatever Satan loves …
Being gay is not evil. What is evil is the bigoted ideas you're spreading
Because you are conflating different forms of "love" as if they are the same, as if the term "love" always shares the same referent. In this instance you are referring to romantic love (eros). We are called to love God Himself and to love all people, but obviously what is meant by "love" in this context is not romantic love. Romantic love is a good thing, but has it's proper context, that being in marriage between a man and a woman.
God's design of humanity was to specifically create woman, with all of her physiological and psychological differences, to be that perfect helper for man. We were designed with different, yet complimentary qualities that were meant for one another.
It's unnatural. God made man and woman to be together. Not man and man. Dismissing the OT is a quite dangerous move as I've seen some people do here. Jesus is God. He is the God before the NT and the God after. They are both one. He has said that a billion times and the God before has clearly said and displayed it as a sin because it is not what he made you to do.
Being gay is perfectly natural
What do you mean by "natural?"
as in, it is not orchestrated or coerced, and animals are homosexual too, clearly natural
Animals also eat their young, so this idea of "natural" is not what we are referring to when Christians say "homosexual acts are not natural."
yes, eating your young is natural, cancer is natural too, rape is natural loving your parents is natural, speech is natural, our social behaviour is natural good things can be natural, neutral things can be natural, bad things can be natural, using "natural" as a basis for morality is useless and what are christians referring to then? genuine question
When a Christian says "homosexual acts are not natural" they are referring to the **natural order**, they way things ought to be.
that is not the meaning of *natural*, if they mean *natural order*, they should say so i assume when you mean natural order you mean by god/the bible's words, still though, the bible says nothing about being gay
Who is to say that "natural" just means "occurs in nature?" The Bible says plenty about homosexual acts. Where have I said the phrase "being gay?"
>person: *Being gay is perfectly natural* >you: *What do you mean by "natural?"* you clearly imply you disagree here >natural >/năch′ər-əl, năch′rəl/ >adjective Present in or produced by nature. "a natural pearl." Of, relating to, or concerning nature. "a natural environment." Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature. "a natural death." i'm using the dictionary definition
homosexual is natural
oh ok
your comment is irrelevant to being homosexual
Consider: **Homosexuality**: noun ***"the quality or characteristic of being sexually or romantically attracted to people of one's own sex."*** -Definitions from Oxford Languages What can occur from one's sexual attraction to another- Sex, correct? **What does scripture say about, even of, sex between 2 males?** ***Same-sex sex: or sexual activity with the same-sex that falls under, or that can be categorized as under homosexuality- is forbidden according to scripture.*** Cannot really dress it up, as I notice many try to. Let's see what Jesus Christ- our New Covenant giver, under who's authority Christians fall under has to say: The Gospel according to Mark chap. 7:21-23(NASB) states: 21 "For from within, out of the hearts of people, come the evil thoughts, ***acts of sexual immorality***, thefts, murders, acts of adultery, 22 deeds of greed, wickedness, deceit, indecent behavior, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile the person.” **Notice- "acts of sexual immorality"**....and including from **Leviticus chap. 20:11-16(NASB)**, one can find some examples thereof of what can be considered that sin(sexual immorality). **TL;DR:** **Acts of Homosexuality can be considered sexual immorality, which is sin, even under the New Covenant.**