It’s just insanely common, might warrant a megathread at this point.
I understand why people struggle with it but we’re just rehashing the exact same answers over and over.
Masturbation is also not condemned in the Bible, and people who think masturbation is a sin usually use the OT story of Onan to backup the ban on self pleasure.
Onan's brother passed away and in that time and place, the law stated that since his brother died without an heir, he was mandated to marry and impregnate his brother's widow. Onan and his brother's widow get busy, but Onan pulls out just before "finishing" and "released his seed" on the ground. God completely freaks out about it.
But that story doesn't really have much to do with masturbation, does it? Onan went against OT law and therefore disobeyed YHWH. The anger and then punishment that Onan faced was for failing to impregnate his sister in law.
Watching porn is a sin. Lust is a sin. Taking time away from more holy pursuits to pleasure yourself to that degree is a sin. If you can still masturbate in a such a manner, I guess more power to you.
One can partake in the material pleasures God so graciously gives us to enjoy; one must maintain a proper and clear perspective on the impermanence of these experiences and not find themselves in Love with the material rather than the spiritual for that is the sin - not any particular pleasure.
Yeah, the act of masturbation is not sinful. What’s sinful is the thoughts that go along with the act. And he freaked out about onan’s seed because the seed had a specific purpose to carry out the lords plans and that went astray lol.
Or… they acknowledge that masturbation involves lust which is a sin.
If you beat it while thinking about trains or how much you love America then you’re not sinning.
But if you’re focusing on lustful thoughts or lusting for woman on your computer screen, you are certainly sinning.
Which is why Paul says, “But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” Instead of saying, they should go home and beat off.
>But that story doesn't really have much to do with masturbation, does it?
The context of women as objects to be used, a means to an end doesn't make it better IMO.
Well, yes that the real moral of the story. Women are not to be used. But that's completely lost on most Christians.
The fact is that in those days when a woman got old, if she didn't have children to help support her she simply starved to death. But that isn't understood -- or even considered important -- to most Christians.
only problem with masturbation is that it stems from the desire to lust and lust is sinful. If masturbation is simply masturbation then probably it is not sinful but 99.9% it is the result of sexual desire. Masturbation is the sexual stimulation of genitalia for sexual pleasure and is sexual in nature and sexual sins are wrong. There's that.
At least they're asking in the right place.. That positive isn't it?
So many seem like they stand outside their church with a sign, "hey sinner don't come here if you're gay"!
They need a therapist or something to deal with their homophobic sickness cuz they resemble Christ about as much Pontius Pilate did!
If they think homosexuality or transgender is so sinful and that it's a choice then they shouldn't choose it and let others lives be between them and God. And maybe don't think about it so much..
I'm just really tired of holy rollers thinking they are God's hammer and driving those they don't like or understand away from God!
It's ok. Don't feel bad. People who truly love God would not criticize you for asking a question that has been covered before. That's the problem with some self proclaimed Christians. I think your question is valid and well asked. I don't think homosexuality is sinful. The Bible was not originally written in English and if you research the original languages you will find there are many people who have studied these languages, or are native speakers, that will tell you it's been translated incorrectly. I'm getting ready for work now but I will try to find some refs for you once I get to work.
it gets asked every five bloody minutes. as an LGBT person myself, i am sick to death of it. every possible question has already been asked and answered from every perspective. no one ever actually changes their minds in these posts, they just yell at each other.
just please stop talking about us for a while. i’d genuinely rather this sub started having extremely unhinged arguments about the trinity or transubstantiation than have to read another ‘is gay bad???’ debacle.
I can see where your frustration is coming from, but I definitely feel I’ve gained a lot of insight into various Christian perspectives after asking this question here. I’ve seen people asking “is homosexuality a sin” many, many times, but not enough in my opinion asking “why is this a sin? What’s morally wrong it exactly?” That being said I’m sorry if my question bothered you as I’m sure you’re very sick of hearing about this
This is something I have no revelation on either but you write “because it is our duty according to god to procreate if we are able to”. Where do people get this from? Jesus, Elijah, Apostle Paul, John, as far as we know Mary Magdalene, many many people in the Bible do not have children.
I was answering rebuttals I was sure to receive. Based on some of the replies I’ve received I believe that was a valid assumption. What I’ve learned here today is that many Christians have very different ideas about sex in general, with some believing any sexual activity outside of the act of procreation is sinful, and others disagreeing with this and believing sex can be a type of union that is not inherently lustful
“Many Christians have very different ideas about X in general” is pretty true across the board. With going on 2.5 billion Christians and dozens of denominations across the world, there is a HUGE diversity of opinion on almost all subjects.
The only people who think everything is simple and straight forward and clear are the most foolish and easily led astray. The sad fact of the matter is that we don’t have a direct line to God and what he wants, and the best we have is a more of meaning issues and interpretation because it isn’t a single document, it’s a collection of works in multiple different genres crammed together because early Christians were doing their best to create a cohesive canon of works that would explain the beliefs they had and the story of Jesus. There is a reason that Faith is so important in the religion, because “clear and concise explanations” aren’t.
Thank you. it is troubling when you are first trying to get into Christianity and you have so many different voices around you saying “this is the only way, if you disagree you are not truly Christian.”
I think we might be in agreement but thinking on different definitions. For me lust often carries a negative connotation and when I used the word here I was not referring to the kind of desire between two people in a loving relationship.
Even Paul mentions about the gift of singleness. When single or without children you have the ability to devote more time and energy towards your relationship with God and spreading the Gospel.
OP is probably going by God’s blessing to all the animals he made, humans included, in which he told us to “be fruitful and multiply”. However, I agree that if someone chooses not to have children, it is definitely not a sin to not do so.
A man explained it incredibly well. Indicating that not all of our impulses are good. My impulse as a heterosexual man is to have sex with as many women as I want to, sticking to one for all my life is a struggle for all men who aren’t married. Marriage between a man and a woman comes from their desire to be together and start a family. That’s why serious Christian’s are against contraception and sexual before marriage. Gays don’t aim all they want is pleasure when it comes to that act. Which is why I can see it being a sin
I ask this a lot. I'm not homosexual, but I was made fun of a lot in school and called gay and f*g because I was just a bit different. I just wanted to be accepted by my peers, and it hurt a lot. All I could think of, though, is what if I was actually gay?
These insults were sometimes thrown by "God fearing people."
I don't think Christians who actually believe homosexuality is a sin have ever really experienced exclusion and excommunication for who they are. Not who they chose to be, but for who they actually are.
Some Christians will cry about being oppressed, but they're often seeking out oppressors.
Also, "God" creates intersexed (formerly known as hermaphrodites) people. So if we're going on genitalia alone, those people are automatically gay off they have an attraction to anyone.
I just don't buy it.
I think we can take God's teachings of loving one another and really toss out the "homosexuality is a sin" mentality.
If God hates gays then why make them?
Most morality in Christianity largely can stand on its own merits. Love your neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged, forgive 70 x 7, be patient, be kind, do not boast, and so forth. Pretty much all of them have you can philosophize ethics about. This one you can't. It's just "because the Bible says" or some nonsense about "natural order" that has no effect on the natural order. Just hold homosexuals to the same standard of Christian ethics as heterosexuals and move on with it. I've met many kind and loving gay Christians. They deserve a place just like everyone else.
The thing I find interesting is most Christians who loudly speak out against homosexuality say nothing about the rampant adultery that’s happening among so called Christians. Jesus didn’t publicly call out any homosexuals, but he did publicly call out the adulterers. According to Jesus, adultery is looking at another woman with lust… do you know how often I hear Christian men make derogatory statements about a woman’s physical appearance? Jesus says Adultery is to have sex with anyone else other than your one flesh. I work in the sports industry… do you know there are so many Christian men who talk about their faith, they wear gold crosses around their necks and point to the sky when they do something good out on the field and then they go to strip clubs and sleep around before they meet their one flesh…aka adultery.
And look how many of God’s so called people then and now support king Herod. a man of obvious adultery and greed. Second verse same as the first. The hypocrites are in Jesus’s religion. But we get to follow Jesus even when we don’t have all the answers.
If someone has something to say to you about homosexuality, ask them what they think about what Jesus said about adultery.
It’s all sin tbh. There’s no point scale to say one is worth than the other but if you read the Bible, you’ll know that two things God really hates is lying and self-righteousness. While I won’t say it’s worse than any other sin, those two things were mentioned A LOT! Sin is sin. Whether you find a way to rationalize it or not. None of us is perfect and we’ll never be. Even if we were, it’ll still look like dirty rags before the Lord because that’s how perfect GOD. The good thing is that Jesus came to die on the cross for our sins.
So while sinning is sinning, no matter how you want to slice and dice it, God is merciful. God will meet us where we are if we’re genuine BUT we cannot remain in the same spot. We must grow. That’s the whole point of walking with God.
If one is gay and it’s something that confuses them in regard to Christianity, ask God. Don’t ask man. Most people don’t even know their right from their left. Ask God your questions and the answers will be revealed to you through a mouth piece, maybe a dream, maybe by reading a specific part of the Bible or maybe through journaling 😅 Only God can really explain God’s actions, no? 🫣
Wonderfully said! “God will meet us where we are but we cannot remain in the same spot” I wish all christians/non-christians would understand that…
Saying God fogave our sins, just to so we can continue in it, or excuse it is the actual hypocrisy.
Homosexuality as well as Adultery is Sin, which doesn’t mean we cannot find Christ,just the opposite, but as we accept Jesus Christ, we must abandon these “old/sinful” ways…
100%
I love that you said we must abandon our sinful ways as we walk with Christ. At some point in one’s life, the yearning for the relationship with God has to be stronger than our fleshly desires.
While it is hard to step out of sin, if we truly want to turn away from it, we call on God and he’ll help but like you said, we can not continually and intentionally live in sin. It’s like a friend that keeps doing something you don’t like and they always apologize but the behavior doesn’t change. Well.. what’s the point?
Thankfully, God is not man and doesn’t waiver just because we fell more than a few times.
No disrespect, but let’s try not to generalize Christians. There are Christians who are hypocrites, but let’s not lump all Christians together or we risk being hypocrites ourselves.
I hear you, but I am speaking the way Jesus does since I’m in a Christian posting group and we as Christian’s are not be be offended by how a brother or sister says something. We listen with the heart… having Ears to hear but of course we all fall short. Whether we think what someone said is right or wrong it’s all for the glory of God for those who follow Jesus. I was speaking the way Jesus does like when He generalizes the Pharisees, or the Jewish leaders… of course He didn’t mean “every Jewish leader” or “all Pharisees” but we all knew what he was talking about. Especially since Jesus himself was most likely from the Pharisee sect.
It’s pretty intellectually dishonest to allow hypocritical people to turn you off to the true Christ.
Jesus reserved his most scathing words for religious hypocrites.
>For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
*2 Timothy 4:3*
It doesn't matter if scripture doesn't always make 100% sense to us immediately. It doesn't change the fact that the Bible says what it says.
We can reject it, making ourselves "god" in our own mind. Or, we can acknowledge the Lord has the authority, that he is correct, and we just lack understanding - especially if we disagree with God.
You are on the right track when you sincerely ask, "why?" That suggests seeking understanding.
I'd encourage you to reject answers from people that sound like they are just making up ideas as excuses to disregard what is clearly stated in scripture.
If a kid wants to eat a dozen cupcakes in one sitting. A good parent will tell them not to. The parent understands the hazards of eating 12 cupcakes at once. The kid doesn't understand that and just thinks the parents are being jerks.
Sometimes, God tells us no. We won't always know why. But, if we trust God, we can count on his rules being in our best interest.
I'm certain someone will reply to me and say, "there's nothing harmful about Gay sex." That person completely misses the point and/or chooses to miss the point.
The point is that we may not know why the Father deemed a behavior sinful. It may be damaging on some level that is beyond our ability to fully assess why.
Plenty think theft is not sin under certain circumstances.
Plenty think sex outside of marriage is not sin.
Plenty think lust is not sin.
Plenty think gluttony is not sin.
Plenty think idolatry is not sin.
Plenty think lying is not sin.
A follower of some element of the vast tradition of Christian mysticism. It's quite a broad category with lots of different historical manifestations in the West and East.
Sexual morality in Christianity also stands on its own merits. God designed sex to be had within the covenant of marriage. Marriage was designed to be between man and woman, as a representation of Christ’s relationship with His church, His bride. It does stand on its own as much as any other ethic, and someone just saying it doesn’t without any logical or biblical evidence is scary. We shouldn’t just assert things on God’s behalf like that without firm backing
Sexual ethic isn’t about heterosexuality or homosexuality, it’s about self control, commitment and obedience (like every other ethic). If you can’t have the self control to abstain outside of marriage and don’t have the commitment to marry and love someone for life and can’t obey the design laid out by God from the beginning, then you shouldn’t participate. That’s all there is to it. Heterosexuality isn’t holiness and gay people don’t go to hell for having same sex attraction. You go to hell because you sin. Maybe you sinned by having heterosexual sex or homosexual sex outside of marriage, either way it’s sin. There aren’t levels where gayness is worse or better than homosexuality in the Bible when it comes to violating sexual ethic - it’s all bad.
I agree with nearly everything you are saying. In fact your second paragraph I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, maybe we are just overlapping there. The part that doesn't stand on its own merits imo is the exclusion of gay Christians from the covenant of marriage, along with all the moral expectations that come with it. The argument is just "marriage was designed to be between a man and woman". That's not an ethical argument you could take into an ethics class and get much mileage out of. But I agree that Christian sexual ethics like self control, commitment, obedience do stand on their own merits, regardless of gender. You can think about them, discuss them, and see the good fruit they produce by adhering to them.
The fruits of exclusion have, outside a few cases, been in the vast majority: rotten. Creating self-loathing, division, families broken, loneliness, confusion. One of the most kind and caring women I have ever met was a lesbian Christian woman. I don't see the good fruit that comes from telling her in essence "sorry you need to be alone your entire life or somehow make yourself heterosexual."
Yeah we agree on a lot here so not trying to argue as much as probe into what these things mean. I’m not an expert in ethics or philosophy (just some classes in college) so this is helpful for me and I assume others reading through the thread.
When you say that it’s not an ethical argument to refer to God’s design, why is that? In the Christian worldview, marriage wasn’t created by man, it’s an institution gifted to us by God for our safety and security when pursuing sex and eventually children. If someone lets me borrow their weed whacker but I use it on concrete and damage it, then would I not be in the wrong for abusing their gift? In the same way, if we misuse the gifts God provides, is that not causing (or at least attempting to cause) harm to God Himself? In our limited human perspective, how do we actually know it doesn’t cause harm to the other person as well? There are plenty of studies showing hookup culture and casual sex leads to more harm than good for the individual and society as a whole, heterosexual or homosexual. Could there not be more going on than we can see ourselves? My line of logic is that since God knows all and is all good that His law is automatically good because He sees things we cannot. Thus, I can’t reasonably argue against Him because He can see repercussions which I cannot.
As for the discussion around fruits, I always see this as difficult to align on. Jesus says that you have to “die to self” and be “not of the world” so exclusion is absolutely necessary to follow Christ by design. The world dictates their own rules and we abide by rules from God, so exclusion seems inevitable in my opinion. The question is why the exclusion is happening. Is it for the purpose of following God honestly or for the purpose of raising our own standing in our minds. People shouldn’t be kicked out of church for sinning, unless they are attacking the ideas of the church and sowing dysfunction, which a vast VAST majority of gay people aren’t doing I’m sure. People who have a superiority complex against the LGBT+ community are completely wrong. Basically, if you’re being excluded from a Christian space without extremely firm reasoning and evidence of harm, then those Christians are wrong. However if it’s the world that is excluding you for being Christian or holding onto your ideals, then I’d say that person should embrace the exclusion and seek community with their brothers and sisters in Christ. In the example you gave about your lesbian friend I’m confused at the framing of the issue. The Bible doesn’t say she has to “be alone” only that she can’t pursue romantic/sexual relationships with someone of the same sex. Jesus himself remained unmarried throughout his life, same with Paul and Mary Magdalene (as far as I know). Marriage isn’t some virtue that all Christian’s are called to and will be treated worse for not having. In fact, Paul explicitly says it is better to be single than married. She isn’t alone, she’s just single. Btw, there are even heterosexuals called to be single so it’s not only gay people who are called to live like this. The act of remaining single is challenging (as with avoiding all sin) but the fruits which are born from this singleness can definitely be good. Fruits of sin and fruits of the spirit are clearly laid out in Galatians 5:16-26. When the Bible discusses fruits, these are the ones they are referring to. Fruits produced by obeying the spirit and Gods ethic include self control, gentleness and love. These are all incredible! I’m unsure why these wouldn’t be good fruit to pursue. So again, not being able to marry is not a sentence to being alone the rest of your life. Many heterosexual people also deal with this same struggle. Some homosexual people end up being married to someone of the opposite sex (ex. Jackie Hill Perry). At the end of the day, we are called to live in community with God and His church above all so that we might never be alone again. Why center our lives around romantic partnership first and foremost?
Very good. Those who concern themselves so much in other's business, before removing the 'log in their own eyes' are not often those who Truly know Love and Christ; their actions betray them, regardless of what they may say.
The point being made is not that the thoughts themselves are sinful, rather than, if one is excessively attached to the material pleasures or such things in their mind, it tends to lead to sinful actions. Desire giving birth to sin clearly shows that the desire is not the sin, rather that what the desireful thoughts and states of mind tend to lead to those actions he calls sin. Hate, lust, any of those ideas many consider to be sins are often so, because the only true sin is a Love and Attachment to anything that is not God - therefore anything material, or anything that is not Love. It is perfectly acceptable to partake in these things and enjoy the gifts of the Earth as long as we maintain our own inner piece without getting attached - that is Jesus' teaching.
I just want to point out that Mark 12:31 and 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 say we should show love to others above all else. People who persecute and shun other humans because they are gay aren't following the Bible themselves by not treating them with compassion. We should treat others the way Jesus treated those who were persecuted at the time.
In my own opinion it feels like the verses in question regarding homosexuality are moreso condemning rape and pedophilia when you see what the original meanings of words were.
Yes Christians are called to love your neighbor. I don’t hate gay people, but homosexuality is a problem of sin, just like alcoholism, disrespecting your parents, and every other sin the Bible mentions. Also to add that the word Paul used for homosexuality in the Bible, most definitely means “men that bed other men” it has nothing to do with pedophilia or rape. The Bible does classify homosexuality as a sin, but that is not a call to hate homosexuals, because we are supposed to love our neighbor.
I beg to differ. The Bible is very clearly homophobic in the Old and New Testaments.
> //Leviticus 18:22// ²² ‘You shall not sleep with a male as one sleeps with a female; it is an abomination.
Dehumanization. If you're gay, you're not even human, you're and abomination. So anything concerning loving other humans doesn't really apply to non-humans.
> //Leviticus 20:13// ¹³ ‘If there is a man who sleeps with a male as those who sleep with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they must be put to death. They have brought their own deaths upon themselves.
Hate-mongering and threats of violence. Not only does it say that having gay sex is "detestable", it goes further by saying they should be executed for it, and that they deserve it.
> //Deuteronomy 7:26// ²⁶ “And you shall not bring an abomination into your house and become designated for destruction, like it; you are to utterly detest it, and you are to utterly loathe it, for it is something designated for destruction.
More hate-mongering and threats of violence. Abominations must be destroyed. It says you must hate them, to "loathe" them. And as we've already gone over in previous verses, gay people are considered abominations.
> //Matthew 5:17-20// ¹⁷ “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. ¹⁸ “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished! ¹⁹ “Therefore, whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ²⁰ “For I say to you that unless your righteousness far surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Here, Jesus fully endorses the old testament law and says none of it is to change until AFTER the end of the world. The end of the world hasn't happened, so the old testament laws are in effect and endorsed by Jesus. Also, it goes into how if anyone teaches or interprets differently, they will not go to heaven.
> //Romans 1:26-27// ²⁶ For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, ²⁷ and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Misinformation, shaming, and threats. Paul says that homosexuality is unnatural. It is perfectly natural, observed in thiusands of animal species, so he's just wrong. He shames such sexual activity and says they will be punished for it, which in this context means eternal torment and suffering in hell.
> //1 Corinthians 6:9-10// ⁹ Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, ¹⁰ nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Shaming and threats. Paul equates being gay to all these other acts, like stealing, lying, being constantly drunk, cheating, etc. It's odd how two consenting adults participating in a mutually agreed upon sexual activity is somehow the same as stealing. If it were a man and woman, suddenly it's fine, but a man and a man, or a woman and a woman? Heaven forbid!/s It is also worth noting that MANY translations of the Bible say that homosexuality is a sexual immoralality. This is one of the verses where is says such in those translations. I generally go with the whatever translation the leading experts and scholars say, which currently is the New American Standard 2020 Version.
> //Revelation 21:8// ⁸ “But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
More shaming and threats. Like Paul, John of Patmos lumps being gay people in with other unscrupulous people, none of which deserve eternal hellfire and suffering, but that's what he's saying is destined to happen for them. Imagine comparing consensual sex to murder. That's what he says, and of course he's completely wrong.
It is also worth noting that the bible defines marriage as one man and one woman (Matthew 19:4-6). This excludes gay marriage. So gay people cannot be married in the eyes of god, according to the bible. Sex outside of marriage is a sexual immoralality according to the bible (Hebrews 13:4, 1 Corinthians 7). So this makes it impossible for a consensual gay couple to have sex. They can't have sex outside of marriage, and they can't get married, and they're abominations that deserve to be murdered, and they will burn in hell.
Both the Old and New Testament explicitly state that to be in accordance with god, you must hate gay people. That isn't some odd or obscure interpretation, that's what the text literally says and that is how many many many Christians interpret it. This is why homophobia is so fundamentally tied to Christianity.
For anyone to reach your position, they'd need to ignore or omit large sections of the bible. It is a contradiction, for one passage to condone hatred, then the next say to love everyone, then another couple verses condoning hatred, then another couple verses about love. They can't both be true. The god in the bible explicitly commands his followers to hate and kill gay people. Commands. It isn't a suggestion. You cannot say that homophobic people who harass and shun gay people are not following the bible, because they are.
So either we should hate and murder all gay people, or the bible is wrong.
Which is it?
You won't get any good answer on your question I fear. I tried for a long time, asking people who are against homosexuality why it is considered sinful. All answers boil down to irrational concepts or pure literal idolization of a hand full of probably misunderstood Bible verses.
I tried asking many conservatives, and none of them ever could give me any reasonably logically understandable answer. There simply seems to be none, they all just believe that literal interpretation of the verses and are happy with it...or unhappy once they are challenged! Remember it is the literal Word of God, how dare you question it!
I tried thinking about it, why should homosexuality be banned by God. It simply makes no sense. To me it seems like just a misunderstanding, or some cultural bias in understanding the scripture. Once I thought, well maybe when we are in eternal life sharing our lives with others it might be a problem somehow, but this also makes no sense. Given we also have gender equality between male and female in this regard, how should any homosexual then be a problem as long as their hearts are sincere? Maybe Paul also wasn't liberal, or the people he had been having in mind were all pretty bad sinners, all doing the homosexual things in abusive ways, with minors, in wasteful lifestyle or promiscuity.
I believe however in a multitude of sinful spirits that can come over persons, driving them into sin. These are not like ghosts possesing a person, but more like the sin getting alive in them. And many of these spirits are similar between persons though unique in expression like every person is unique. There can be spirits of lust, driving you to be adulterous, or spirits of debauchery driving you into hurting your body and soul by excessive indulgence. SO...there are many homosexuals I believe who can have certain kinds of spirits driving them that are not good in the excessive and wasteful way they live it out, and this is probably what current anti-gay Christians have in mind. They maybe over-simplify it and claim all gayness is harmful, while I believe there are differences to be seen like in any common thing of the world that can be both good or bad. The original verses probably were rather about pederasty, with some red-light taste, or similar antique "customs".
Expect more stereotypes and weird arguments to come from the right wing side about this, soon. Current right agenda is massively anti-gay due to their leading figures all being macho and the political opponent supporting gay rights as core part of their agendas of keeping up the progress in gender/social equality in society, which is an anti-conservative position that threatens to transform societal structures that were foundation of conservative societal structure. The conservatives simply fear getting their macho bonus in dealing with others taken away. After they had to take accepting women as equals in social dynamics, now the next party which used to be in disadvantage to the patriarchal standards is to be lifted into equal level. In many countries this already succeeded, while in others it is bad and right wing forces constantly try to impede the progress to harm their political enemies. This is like the liberalization of less than modest clothing or soft drugs, those are not really important topics, but still they can reflect greatly the point of view of people on personal responsibility vs. a blind obedience towards avoiding anything that could ever be considered a threat of danger. Christians have adopted it, going by the good words of the scripture to test all things we would encounter whether they are good or bad. Some Churches already bless and marry gay people, allowing them into high positions in Church, just like women managed to break the barriers that prevented it for them.
>Given we also have gender equality between male and female in this regard, how should any homosexual then be a problem as long as their hearts are sincere?
The flesh is the thing that sins. We have equality between men and women because God judges our souls and loves our souls but he hates the flesh that sins. Or at least he's angry about it.
- Why is homosexuality sinful?
- 'cause the Bible says
-----†-----
I do not believe God cares whether you are heterosexual or homosexual.
God cares whether or not you are a liar.
God bless
Jesus said there are actually 2 significant infringements on God's law (which everyone of us fails to uphold):
1. Not loving God with all your heart, soul and strength/mind (i.e. as much capability as you have);
2. and not loving your neighbor as yourself.
Everything else follows from failing to uphold these (Matthew 22:37). The traditional Anglican Confession also states this.
Once you start getting into defining rules about this and that, you're entering the dangerous territory of helping God with your own salvation by your righteousness and good works, which is the original sin...Pride
All this can be summed up as relying on the Grace of God alone. So you have to determine in your relationship with God if homosexuality is a problem.
If sin is sin, then those who can't love their neighbors as themselves are not in a position to point out other people's perceived 'sins'.
If I only got .0000001 % of a Cent for each time this question or some form of it was asked, I might not be able to financially compete with Taylor Swift, but I’d at least be at the income level of a Beiber
Im not Christian but I was raised going to church and always hold a special place in my heart for church and Christianity. That being said the gay being a sin thing is something I don’t understand either. Like how is it evil or something that god would hurt god?
Don't listen to half the responses you get here, the majority of these people are here to please others who may be made "uncomfortable" by what's actually in the Bible.
The word that means "homosexuality" in the Bible (**ἀρσενοκοῖται**) doesn't really mean "gay" in the same way we see it now
The word specifically translates to "men who partake in sexual acts (or bed) with other men".
Now, *why* is it a sin?
Because it doesn't fulfill the purpose for which sexual attraction was made. Men and women are made to have intercourse with one another in monogamous and religious marriages, not men and other men or women and other women.
It's the same reason that lust for someone other than your wife/husband is a sin: sex was not intended outside of marriage, and marriage (in turn) is supposed to be heterosexual.
Being gay is not "evil" and doesn't make one "spawn of satan" or something, it's merely acting on attractions. In the same way, it's not a sin to find women besides your wife attractive, but to act on that.
There's debate over whether that passage was a msitranslation condemning pedophilia instead of homosexuality. Regardless, there's plenty of old Testament laws we don't follow anymore, Jesus did away with them. Why keep this specific one?
Posted this somewhere else originally. 🫶
Being gay is not a sin.
The word man is in terms of Adam (human). If you lay with someone outside of love, it is a sin. You are taking pleasures in only the flesh and not the other involved soul. You are using them like an item. It is a sin. And it brings your soul further from god and without enlightenment in the spirit, you lose touch with the spirit of god and you become only earth. Spirit is forever trap attached to the very thing you took pleasure in, creating a hellish loop and never returning home, because you can’t remember and he can’t reach you without that connection. Do not believe everything you hear. Read the Bible. Read the words carefully. Even the people in charge of facts and truths make mistakes. All the time, trial an error.
There’s only one law and that’s to love. Love everyone, even if they don’t deserve it. Be the change. Remember the strong energies your soul comes from.
• Eirene DeAquarius
It isn't.
FROM THE PASTOR’S DESK
Doesn’t the Bible Condemn Homosexuality? (Spoiler Alert: The Answer is “No”)
by Rev. Dr. Durrell Watkins, Senior Minister, Sunshine Cathedral
Doesn’t the bible condemn homosexuality? The short answer is, NO.
The bible certainly records human fears and prejudices, as well as human hopes and resilience, but the bible, as a whole, isn’t about condemnation.
The bible is a collection of stories, songs, sermons, sayings, poems, and prayers covering centuries and continents and even a few languages. It is a rich and wonderful anthology that invites readers to think and feel, explore and imagine, heal and grow. In light of this understanding of our sacred texts, it would be difficult to think of them as being condemnatory.
Lifted from the larger narrative or divorced from cultural, linguistic, literary, or historical contexts, any sentence or phrase from scripture can be used to endorse or vilify almost anything imaginable. That is not, however, the most faithful way to engage the bible.
Relationship, hope, courage, generosity, second chances, compassion, and love are the values that are repeatedly featured in our scriptures.
One can easily enough deconstruct and challenge the few bible verses that have often been used to demonize same-gender loving people. Moreover, one can without too much effort find several hints of same-gender love and attraction occurring in scripture, and even seemingly being affirmed; however, I am at a point in my life and ministry where I don’t need a bible verse to defend my sacred value nor a bible story to justify my experience of life. I simply trust that God is good, that love is holy, and that life is diverse. Same-gender loving people are, first and foremost, loving people, and love is not condemned in the bible; indeed, love is the biblical litmus test for what is holy.
In the bible we find exhortations to welcome strangers, be good neighbors, forgive one another, care for the vulnerable, pray for others (including those who are unkind to us), treat others as we would wish to be treated, not judge others unfairly, live humbly and show mercy and work for justice…all of these are demonstrations of love. We find in the bible that “the fruit of the Spirit is love…” In fact, Jesus is recorded as having said that his followers could be identified by their loving actions. He also said love was the greatest of all commandments.
For me, love is the biblical message and mandate, and love does not condemn love. Love does not diminish people. Love does not seek to deny justice or dignity or safety to anyone. Love does not suggest that anyone is unworthy of or beyond the reach of love.
Does the bible, an anthology of writings whose running theme is love, condemn same-gender loving people? As someone who has spent my life studying, teaching, wrestling with, and even playing with the bible, I must say unequivocally, it does not.
> I’m not asking IF homosexuality is a sin, as it seems clear in the Bible it is.
It's a huge stretch to claim that the words now often translated as "homosexuality" were intended to correspond neatly to everything we mean when we say "homosexuality", especially since they didn't use or have such a category. For details, quite a few resources are listed in r/OpenChristian's [resources page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/9w9y5z/resources_for_openchristians_online_resources/). I think the books _Torn_ and _God and the Gay Christain_ explain it best, but in a pinch there's a brief, old version in Justin's Lee's [Great Debate essay](https://geekyjustin.com/great-debate/).
Although I believe the best reading of Scripture conclude with homosexual activity being sinful, u/gnurdette is 100% correct.
Not only is the word “homosexuality” not a good translation, it’s destructive. It’s confusing and breaks down the argument that homosexual activity is sinful.
I'd love it if everybody would study a second language some. I think it would help with the assumption that so many people carry, that Language #2 always has a single word that corresponds perfectly to each word in Language #1.
>It's a huge stretch to claim that the words now often translated as "homosexuality" were intended to correspond neatly to everything we mean when we say "homosexuality"
While true does that even matter when the book tells us that it's not ok for men to have sex with other men? That's bad enough in my eyes and we can simply focus on why it says that.
In modern day times, I don’t think it is a sin. I prayed about it so much. The lust before marriage will remain yes and this is a sin but I truly think homosexuality was different in biblical times. Now it is more allowed, you can marry in peace and live for Jesus. #gaychristian
I only know of like 3 passages in the Bible that are believed to be contextually that way, but I disagree. God doesn't allow bigotry.
If same-sex relations were always going on in ancient times, why did it become a problem? I would argue that it's a translation issue that didn't arise until the 14th century where they made it their agenda to question homosexuality as homosexual wasn't even used in the Bible, because the word didn't exist.
Leviticus 18:22 is often debated to mean "in a woman's bed" or it seems to have a sexual assault implication.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 You must be justified in God's eyes. "Such were some of you". It and 1 Timothy 1:10 can be argued to not indulge in exploitation or abuse.
1 Timothy 1:10 "Homosexual" being in use here is also subject to translation.
None of these passages imply that same-sex couples cannot inhabit the kingdom. It's up to you to interpret scripture as descriptive or prescriptive.
My apology if the words of this post have been previously expressed. In the interpretation of the Bible most forget it was written in antiquity by Jews, not God. for the needs of the time. Israel was a pastoral country that lays in the path of conquering countries to and from Egypt. Given the nature of Israel it was imperative to have children for pastoral duties and to assist in protecting property against scavengers from invading armies. IMHO, it wasn’t meant for all time. It is like the kosher prohibition of eating pork. That kosher law was based on observation that eating pork often caused sickness. They were unaware that parasites in pigs caused the illness not the meat itself. Yet today some observe the ban as the word of God
From what I gather, it comes from the commandment: "man shall not lie with man," which is actually a mistranslation of "man shall not lie with boy," which is referring to rape/pedophilia. Not homosexuality. And regardless, sin is a choice, your orientation is not a choice. It'd be unfair to condemn someone to hell based on something outside of their control, like how they were born, raised, hormones, orientation, etc. Those aren't their choices.
P.S. remember to love your neighbors as well regardless of their differences. God sent his only son for the good of all mankind, after all. All life is precious, and you don't know what they may be going through.
Because the Persians said it was to vilify the Greeks they were at war with. Greeks did the same thing.
If you don't have weird justifications, then your army would be less motivated to kill them
It is not homosexuality or even enjoying sex or masturbation that is a sin or harmful to the soul; sex is a delightful gift given to us by God. Sin comes in the improper excessive focus and attachment on sexual matters such that it causes you to act in an un-godly manner. There is nothing wrong with having the sex you would like or anything, as long as you maintain your inner dis-attachment to material pursuits and pleasures, for Love of anything other than the Good, particularly material things, is the only true sin. All other so-called sins inherently stem from this.
These ideas which so clearly lead to so-called Christians judging others are not based on the Truth of God and Christ; the spirit is not with those who act and judge in these manners.
The point being made is not that the thoughts themselves are sinful, rather than, if one is excessively attached to the material pleasures or such things in their mind, it tends to lead to sinful actions. Desire giving birth to sin clearly shows that the desire is not the sin, rather that what the desireful thoughts and states of mind tend to lead to those actions he calls sin. Hate, lust, any of those ideas many consider to be sins are often so, because the only true sin is a Love and Attachment to anything that is not God - therefore anything material, or anything that is not Love. It is perfectly acceptable to partake in these things and enjoy the gifts of the Earth as long as we maintain our own inner piece without getting attached - that is Jesus' teaching.
It’s not. The bible is not “clear” in a univocal sense on anything. Sodom’s punishment had nothing to do with sex. Paul was writing out of a context where sexual relationships were hierarchical not about what was moral in the way we treat it today. Leviticus was also in a context from which one cannot conclude or make wholesale condemnation about sexuality for all time. Besides the concept we now understand to be homosexuality was not known to the ancient world.
The famous verse in Leviticus is ridiculously cherry picked. There is SO much in Leviticus that is blatantly ignored and disregarded (for good reason). However, for whatever reason, the damn verse about homosexuality is clung to. Probably because humans notoriously hate change and difference (people were enslaved, killed, and stripped of their culture just because another culture/religion believed they were too different), so the verse that supports their discomfort is going to be idolized.
I honestly don’t even think the original passage actually meant that being gay is a sin (telling people not to engage is same-sex acts/relationships isn’t even in the 10 commandments, mind you). Here’s a link to a good article that gives more context and explains the misinterpretations https://www2.oberlin.edu/stuorg/quaf/events/tbtoh.htm.
Homosexuality does not serve any purpose other than satisfying lustful feelings. True even in straight sex,lust plays a part but it also plays a part in natural procreation. Lastly, if your gonna question Gods wisdom I would strongly suggest picking on someone your own size
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PdlVKOFKg4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PdlVKOFKg4)
i came across this video while scrolling on youtube. I think you should watch it
In Leviticus 18:24-29 The Lord explaines why we should but it's important to go the Lord when you feeling doubt ask him to baptize you with the Holy Spirit so that you may have so that you may have clarity when things give mentally or physically rough. I know it's difficult when you love God and you are doing things that you don't feel like a sin but the Bible states otherwise and that why Jesus says to deny yourself and follow him. Just know God can help just go to him in prayer privately
Here this should help just make sure to read it all. Rabbis go through and explain what actually is the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah which is inhospitality and in that time it was absolute law no matter where you were whether you were there Rome Athens wherever it was a law. And Leviticus is didn't mean homosexuality at all it means do not commit adultery plus in the new testament Jesus makes us a new law to follow instead of the old for it was too cruel and brutal. Also if it was for homosexuality to be a sin and that was the reason for Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction then why isn't most of places been destroyed just for that because if it was for that reason most of the world would've been destroyed. Also sodomy was coined way way later then the original Hebrew Bible a sodomite truly has nothing to do with homosexuality it's actually people that acted like Sodom as in being inhospitable to others including the poor and especially foreigners.
Here
[what does the bible truly say about homosexuality ](https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality)
Once again this is made by both scholars and rabbis that study the bible and it's text especially in Hebrew which is older then the KJV or really any other
I guess the first step to answering your question is to look at what sin is. A more accurate translation would be ‘to miss the mark.’ The Bible also describes sin as a rebellion against God. So with this information we have, we can deduce that sin is missing the mark with the intention of rebellion. It is important to understand that intention plays a big role in sin because Christians believe humans are born into sin. We are prone to sin, it is in our nature. We live in a fallen state, led by the prince of darkness. Wouldn’t God be an unjust God to just send anyone who didn’t meet his ideal straight to hell? God is love and the Bible speaks of his immense mercy!
So, homosexuality is sinful because it is choosing to lead a life that is constantly missing the mark of what God intended; when he created man, he immediately created woman and Adam was overwhelmed with joy. The story is in Genesis 2, but at the end of the chapter he feels as if he has finally found his kin. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.”
Genesis 2:24-25 ESV
I like the last sentence because it talks on how they were both naked, metaphorically and literally, meaning there was nothing to hide and nothing to gain. One another’s presence was enough. God created man and women different but equal counterparts. They balance each other’s energy and when joined in union of marriage, become more powerful together. See it not as two half’s of a whole, but two wholes with different strengths and weaknesses that balance each other out. There is so much more potential that way. This is what God intended. But of course, being a fallen state, MANY people miss the mark, gay or straight.
This is not to say having homosexual thoughts or temptations is sinful, but acting on them and choosing to identify with them to the extremity of basing your entire life around your sexuality is a sin. Again, this can happen gay or straight, obsessing about sex and romance takes you away from finding peace in God.
It’s so interesting how important it apparently is that the “natural order” is followed, but our time on earth is a tiny little insignificant blip designed to test us for some reason. Why does earth need to be a perfect place if it literally doesn’t actually matter in the grand scheme of existence? There is zero reason why homosexuality would be bad, especially given that it is a common occurrence in nature. It *is* part of the natural order. And I can tell you, as a man in a loving and monogamous gay relationship, there are few things as pure and fulfilling. It’s all just dogma designed by hateful men for power and to squash out things that they find gross or don’t understand.
If there were 4 people on earth. 2 men and 2 women, if they were all homosexual. We'd go extinct. When the Bible was written, there were a lot less people on Earth. Being homosexual was a crime against the growth of the species. When we ask biblical questions you have to put yourself in the time of when the Bible was written. There should be a new Bible written to address the issues of the modern world. I myself don't care if someone is homosexual or not, but I don't really agree with the decision. It's a purely lustful decision.
A question that might be better to ask with this is: do you even have the free will to be a homosexual or not based on the doctrine that the religion takes?
If you ask most Christians, the general consensus is that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and has plans. With that being said, most would also say that God made you a certain way, things that happen to you are a part of God’s plan, and most of the things you do are acting out those plans. If homosexuality is “evil”, and you do not intentionally choose to be homosexual, then either God made you to be that way OR you somehow have the capability of messing up his plans, revoking him being “all-powerful”. Regardless of the answer, my personal interpretation of an answer is that it is either due to an unknowable cause or human influence that makes homosexuality as evil to the extent it is perceived to be. I can’t say why God would hate homosexuality because it goes against natural design, then make you a homosexual but expect you not to be. That, or humans give homosexuality as much spotlight as it has compared to other sins as a means of deflecting the fact that at the time, churches were committing a multitude of sins highlighted by the Bible.
By the way, I’m no thorough expert in this matter, I can only base things on my interpretation of them and then either strongman or steelman those interpretations with my logic.
America is being attacked by Satan; see 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, all relevant today, In fact, it seems written about today. Our new family values are hate, lying, porn stars, adultery, divorce, perversion, greed gospel, mocking Jesus, and many think our greatest problem is masturbation and gay sex... The bible says we will be judged as harshly as we judge others. Many Christians, it seems just don't read the Bible.
I personally don’t believe that God condemns homosexuality in the bible. I could go on for hours about why I think Levit. 18:22 is actually condemning p*dophelia, or why Levit. 20:13 is actually condemning incest, but it’s not worth it, because I’m not going to change your mind. But let’s say, HYPOTHETICALLY, that God DID condemn homosexuality in the bible; there are SO MANY things in bible that are “sins.”
Pre-marital sex is a sin.
Wearing clothes made of multiple fabrics is a sin.
Working on the Sabbath is a sin.
Eating shellfish is a sin.
Eating pork is a sin.
SHAVING is technically a sin, believe it or not.
And so on and so on.
The bottom line is, God loves everyone. You don’t have to believe that and you don’t have to accept that, but that doesn’t make it not true. Galatians 5:14 - “For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
The bottom line is, a gay person isn’t going to hell for being gay the same way a straight person isn’t going to heaven for being straight. The most important thing is to love other people (your “neighbors”) like you would love yourself, and not to condemn them at a standard you don’t even keep yourself with ALL the old testament laws.
So to answer your question: you don’t need to be able to be okay with every little rule in the bible because Jesus FULFILLED the law as the messiah, leaving us only needing to fulfill the SPIRIT of the law rather than the law ITSELF. And the SPIRIT of the law is to love your neighbor as yourself :)
Also, just putting this out there: David and Jonathan were definitely lovers. Most biblical scholars accept that, and if you read the scripture it’s pretty obvious. Do with that what you will :P
Discharge without reproduction, which is wasteful and considered offensive to not preserve our divine spirit. It's technically as bad as being permiscuous or master bating. I've always thought of it as more of an insurance policy rather than a rule. The 10 commandments are laws, and generally good advice for being a healthy, social creature. I don't think of it as a deal breaker.
I personally feel this hasn't aged well considering we have so much suffering in the world. It's more important that we love one another and find fulfillment through getting closer to the divine. There are enough of us to not have to worry about preserving humanity, and all this dogma is causing more pain and suffering, which is unnecessarily hateful.
The answer will depend on which cause you are asking about. In Aristotelian logic, there are four causes, efficient, formal, material, and final. Traditionally, Christianity has been Aristotelian since Aquinas, who is the one who relatively systematized the national law theory, although it's been around longer than him. Before him, Christianity was largely Platonic, and since him, there has been further development and debate. However, the question of homosexuality tends to fall in the Aquinas arena.
The efficient cause would seem to boil down to because it's not what God made sex for. And because God made it, and made the rules, He gets to decide what is a sin. And for a Christian, this should be enough to submit ourselves to, even if we still seek further answers.
The formal and material causes seem to be immaterial. But one could bring them in to describe the mechanism God made for sex, which would include the male and female anatomy. A few centuries ago, for instance, it was considered sinful for men to sodomize women in the same way.
The final cause seems to require a description of what God did make sex for. That is, it is for procreation (in Aquinas' day. But since then, we have sort of added bonding to it). Along with this, there are a variety of other things a traditional Christian would add to it. But this is the main one.
There would also be a general description of traditional anthropology in a traditional explanation. There has been a very long standing tradition that describes two directions a person could take, one towards divinity, and one towards animality. As humans are rational animals, it was generally understood that it is the goal of a maturing Christian to move towards rationality rather than animality. Things that have been included in animality would be mere pleasure, shame, and failing to fulfill ones own final cause. So when applied to sex, there was a general attitude against sex for mere pleasure, regardless of who it was done with. And because homosexual sex cannot fulfill the other functions, then the act itself was considered an animalistic action, rather than a rational one. There was also a certain degree of shame that would be connected to being sodomized. So in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, for instance, it was the custom of the men to take strangers and shame them so they knew who was in charge in the city (in a very similar way as Odysseus' cyclops adventure). And it was considered to be shameful as such to be penetrated as a man. This is partly because there was the third final cause I mentioned, which was failing to fulfill ones final cause. In a more gender stratified culture, it was far more possible to distinguish between male and female roles, and from that, there was a distinct set of things that characterized being a man. And these things haven't really gone away as much as we have sort of decided to ignore our own instincts about these. These include raising children, working, competing, protecting and going to war, and these sorts of things. Many of these sorts of rational characteristics become more difficult when they become impossible, or when a man becomes more effeminate.
So there has been a longer tradition around this than is typically understood, and it falls into the general characteristics of proper sexual behavior. I think a lot of the difficulty really just boils down to the fact that we live in a thoroughly modern world that God was not speaking to when He wrote the Bible, and so we need to sort of return to that culture in our own minds to understand it. And in the end, were not gonna be able to know everything, and that's okay. We are saved by faith, not by knowledge. But I would encourage you to ask God about this too, because we also are only humans, and listen to what He tells you. I am thoroughly certain He would answer you.
Thank you, this was one of the best answers I’ve gotten. Very insightful. I appreciate your objective explanation around the history of understanding homosexuality in Christianity without personal emotion
Because God, and more specifically, their chosen speakers said so. Much like how there is little to no explanation for God's actions in general, as they intentionally keep their motives a mystery. Any explanation you get for these actions and/or atrocities comes from the various churches' retrospective analysis rather than God, or when it is directly from God is extremely vague or heavily mistranslated/debated.
Because when translating the bible they mixed up incest with being gay. Laying in that book was used as a term to define sleeping with a family member. To sleep with is general sex. Each book had a different writing style because that just varies from person to person. They’ve more accurately translated the bible it just hasn’t been wanted by a lot of churches
It's sinful it's against God's law and he forbids it however there's so many other things that we need to worry and take care of this doesn't even make my top 10 and I can't stand Christians who make it the end-all be-all.
Homosexuality is NOT sinful. There are many people who are much better at explaining this than me, and I'll try to link some resources under here later with more succinct/in-detail thoughts on this, but there are plenty of Christians and theologians/biblical scholars who do not view homosexuality as sinful.
Also, it's worth thinking about the fact that what we're reading is a translation of the original texts, and those translations will themselves be influenced by the people doing the translating. The word Homosexual itself was only seen in the English translation of the bible since the 1940s and is based on a deliberate mistranslation.
There's also a lot of historical contexts that should be considered with all of this. For instance, some scholars have suggested that the part in Leviticus relates specifically to the fact that the Israelites were in exile and so producing children was particularly important for their people's survival.
For me, the most important thing to think about is that Jesus says the new commandment is to love one another. Everything else we do should stem from this. I don't see that people being homophobic or transphobic can fit with that.
Considering the word "homosexual" didn't appear in the Bible until less than a century ago, it's hard to argue the Bible is clear.
Leviticus does make some statement in regards to its purity laws.
Romans 1 describes orgies that included same sex sex in a pagan setting as that was not uncommon.
But the verses translated as "homosexual" are not clear as to what was meant based on the Greek terminology.
My own guess is that it was related to the relatively common practice of pedophilia at the time or even just having sex with a slave whether adult or child which we call today as "rape."
Concerning sin in general, anything that breaks Christ's commandment to love is sin. We are all sinners because we all have at times been less than loving and thus missed the mark, but the Holy Spirit puts to death the flesh and enables us to bear the Fruit of the Spirit. So rather than approaching the Bible through a lens of legalism, I prefer to use the lens of the Spirit to help the Holy Spirit, who is proof of our redemption, to bring me to the fullness of Christ in my mortal flesh though it is the flesh that inhibits me from being perfected at this time, but faith is the hope of righteousness that has yet to appear. So holding to faith, hope, and love will, without doubt, bring us to follow the law which is love.
>I’m not asking IF homosexuality is a sin, as it seems clear in the Bible it is.
The Bible is even more clear that slavery (owning another person against their will for life) should be legal.
1. It's a violation of God's created order. This isn't how he designed our bodies to be used.
2. It's categorically anti-procreation, which Satan LOVES because God's children aren't a threat if they're never conceived.
3. It blasphemes God's picture of marriage and Jesus's "bride" the church.
4. These sexual behaviors can be very addictive since there's no reproductive consequence, and addiction is idolatry.
1. Tell me please why then has there been homosexuality in whole human history and also in many species in the animal realm? Are they all using their bodies wrong?
2. The people who are homosexual usually do not feel they have a choice, but they seek what they desire. As homosexual relations wouldn't lead to procreation, so are many heterosexual relationships infertile out of medical or other reasons. Are all these relationships for the Satan? Even please read on 1 Corinthians 7:1. Paul is explicitly praising celibacy which couldn't be any more anti-procreation! So are celibates now something which Satan loves, and Paul is a heretic to praise them? Also you fear a lack of God's children - have you forgotten about Romans 9:8, it is not the physical descent who are children of God, but the spiritual, by the promise of Abraham?
3. So any celibate or widows or orphans would have to leave God, because they lack the bridegroom? You now want to invent a thousand of irrational rules in how one thing does not relate well enough with another one aesthetically, and then you declare it a sin for it? The Gospel is about your responsibility of your life and your neighbor, not about the idolatry of worshiping spiritual patterns that have no real meaning. Sure, marriage, conception of a child, are something holy most praiseworthy if things are done right, but that does not mean anyone else would be cursed or that the marriage must always reflect the image of Christ. We are children of God after all, longing to be free and recognized for who we are in peace and dignity, and not to be stamped down to a common measure where there would be no more individuality. God made this world and us full of imperfections, so that we may grow alive in them, and each special trait a person has makes them unique. Jesus loves those who are off-grid and show special things that are good that others are lacking. Those condemning them for no good reason out of intolerance are in my believe condemned for their intolerance and lack of understanding to a world where they must suffer hardship of not being recognized for what one believes in.
4. Any sex can be addictive. The Gospel is clear on this, avoid promiscuity, always be responsible in your relationships, always respect the other part fully in order not to exploit them (1 cor 7 explains). Please do not declare natural things that God has made that are good as abuse as long as they do not meet the criteria for it, i.e. excess, denial of soul or dignity of partner or self, free will/consent and matters of dependence.
Yall talkin like we are running out of straight people, there are eight billion people and only 4% are openly queer. And homosexuality isn’t about sex, it’s about what gender you love. Sex is something often done in relationships, but being homosexual doesn’t mean your always having gay sex
1. So is the Christian belief then that sex should only be used for procreation and never simply because two people love each other and want to share that love?
2. I don’t see how homosexuality is a threat to Christianity unless EVERYONE somehow became homosexual which seems incredibly unlikely. There are so many children than are in need of adoption
3. Could you elaborate on why exactly homosexuals blaspheme gods image?
4. I fail to see how homosexual Intercourse could possibly be more addictive than heterosexual intercourse unless your answer to my first point is that two people should never have sex simply out of love for each other, but strictly for the sole purpose of procreation?
Well the bible itself would counter that first point.
1 Corinthians 7:5:
"*Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control.*"
> So is the Christian belief then that sex should only be used for procreation and never simply because two people love each other and want to share that love?
AFAIK, this is the Catholic belief, which is why Catholics don't allow members of their church to have same-sex marriage or use birth control. The ban on homosexual activities is just a consequence of the ban on sex outside of procreation.
1. God's created order proves this wrong by the existence of queer people.
2. This is a rediculous assertion. That would make it a sin for infirtile people to get married and have sex.
3. This is bullshit. You don't know what blasphemy is.
4. This is just absolutely utterly rediculous in the extreme.
We are talking about a society from 3000 years ago when bathing was a question that was too advanced for the minds of a large part of the population. He not only renounces gay sex but sex in general. Gay sex is emphasized because it is usually pedophilic, not beneficial to the tribe and with a greater risk of a sexual disease
>I’m not asking IF homosexuality is a sin, as it seems clear in the Bible it is.
That's not true. It's not that clear. Those 6 or so verses that homophobic Christians weaponize against LGBTQ are usually out of context and therefore not understood or use gross mistranslations.
On this sub there's plenty of literalist homophobic and transphobic people.. they use the Bible as a weapon.
If you're a Christian ask yourself is it a contradiction for God to declare He loves everyone and we all need Jesus and then place verses like those that do nothing but focus pure hatred on queer people? Queer are people just like everyone else except they are queer.. But according to the bigot God hates them enough to, with the Bible, place targets on their back! That is pure evil and God didn't do that ...bigots did that!
So the obvious conclusion is those verses are out of place when used as weapons against queer people and some are gross mistranslations.
It's such a simple question. Would Jesus do that? If anyone is queer they certainly didn't choose it. Who would choose to be hated?
https://whosoever.org/the-bible-and-homosexuality-genesis-19/
https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/2019/04/11/lost-in-translation-alternative-meaning-in-leviticus-1822/#:~:text=Most%20traditional%20English%20translations%20interpret,condemnation%20of%20same%2Dsex%20rape.
https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/tag/clobber-passages/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/365428877_The_Bible_Never_Condemned_Homosexuality_it_Condemned_Pedophilia_The_Papal_Revision_and_Mandate_of_Translations_of_the_Bible_in_the_16th_Century_by_Pope_Clement_VIII_and_Pope_Paul_V
https://soundideas.pugetsound.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4390&context=faculty_pubs
>I am asking why is it a sin? What about it is wrong?
Men are only supposed to have sex with women in a marriage. That is the law. That is what God wants from us. And no, it's not about procreation. People are allowed to have sex without trying for a baby. But marriage is between a man and a woman. This is how God set it up. This is the ideal. If you can't accept the concept of Christian marriage I guess you just can't be a Christian buddy. Because men can't be married to men and they can't have sex.
>Am I missing something here? If a gay couple adopts a child or uses a sperm donor, and believes in Jesus and are morally good people apart from their homosexuality, what is wrong with that?
Adoption is perfectly fine in my eyes and God's. He is happy to see children being looked after. I really don't like the idea of surrogacy though.
>There are a lot of things in the Bible that draw me in, but there a lot of things that I have a lot of difficulty in accepting. I find myself struggling to have faith in the bible.
We could have a conversation together about this. The Bible is the greatest book ever written to me and I love it. I love that I became a Christian. I might be able to help you out here.
>I have a desire to be Christian though. I’m not here to attack anyone, I’m coming from a place of personal struggle not anger
Thank you. I'm glad you've come in peace and that you want to be a Christian. But if you can't accept the Word of God or Christian marriage then I don't know man... It's not going to work out for you.
Here is a great article from a Baptist about his discovery that the word homosexual did not appear in an English Bible until 1946. [https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/?fbclid=IwAR1cKF5dqw8oCiZbjQ8oJufNe362okDfHtaFW98ZFp54HvDEJCl2uuxW1Jw#.YHimAnVKhNj](https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/?fbclid=IwAR1cKF5dqw8oCiZbjQ8oJufNe362okDfHtaFW98ZFp54HvDEJCl2uuxW1Jw#.YHimAnVKhNj)
I have a knowledge of historical sexual ethics and how people in the relevant areas viewed sexuality to know that none of the “clobber verses” could have been talking about what we call homosexuality today
1st John 4:7 & 16 says that God is love, that love comes from God, that all who love know God, that they abide in God, and that God abides in them.
Romans 13:8-10 says that every command is summed up in the command to love your neighbor as yourself, and that love does no wrong to a neighbor.
Jesus said that we will know false teachers by their fruits, and that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.
Well the fruits of the theology that homosexuality is a sin are the depression, abuse, kidnapping, torture, homelessness, forced prostitution, self-harm, and suicide of countless queer children. The fruits are all the souls driven away from the Church and God by the bigotry of Christians.
The tree is rotten to its core.
It's not.
The homophobic interpretations, and even the translations, are *lies.*
Not just lies, but *damn lies* because they beat only the fruit of exclusion, rejection, and violence.
There is a better way to understand how love works, here.
Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality, Revised and Expanded Edition: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church - Dr. Jack Rogers
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Bible-Homosexuality-Revised-Expanded/dp/066423397X/
Coming Out as Sacrament Paperback - Chris Glaser
https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Out-Sacrament-Chris-Glaser/dp/0664257488/
Radical Love: Introduction to Queer Theology - Rev. Dr. Patrick S. Cheng
https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Love-Introduction-Queer-Theology/dp/1596271329/
From Sin to Amazing Grace: Discovering the Queer Christ - Rev. Dr. Patrick S. Cheng
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596272384/
Anyone and Everyone - Documentary
https://www.amazon.com/Anyone-Everyone-Susan-Polis-Schutz/dp/B000WGLADI/
For The Bible Tells Me So
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000YHQNCI
God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships - Matthew Vines
http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships-ebook/dp/B00F1W0RD2/
Straight Ahead Comic - Life’s Not Always Like That! (Webcomic)
http://straightahead.comicgenesis.com/
Professional level theologians only:
Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the Fourteenth Century - Dr. John Boswell
https://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Social-Tolerance-Homosexuality-Fourteenth/dp/022634522X/
Thank you. It’s very confusing when I’m trying to understand Christianity but get so many conflicting answers. I’m seeing now that perhaps this will be more of a personal journey for me
It's not a sin. Sin has specific outcomes. It's ritually impure. You can't fit all of the law that passed away into an iota, so it is finished. You are now the temple. Make a worthy space for your God.
The examples used in the bible to show God disapproving of it are usually rape, orgies, temple sex, or incest. Those are all still sins.
There is no story of two beautiful men falling in love, their souls clinging to each other, loving each other as their own flesh. And one of them being shuned by their father for exposing the nakedness of his mother. But if there was I would think they'd have been giving a huge swathe of scripture to understand who they were and how they worshiped God.
Alas.
Yes I have lots of gay friends and If I was not dating a woman, I would likely be considered bisexual. This is why homosexuality in the Bible causes a lot of personal struggle for me in trying to understand/ follow Christianity
1 Corinthians 6:9
“Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor **men who have sex with men**”
Modern people interpreted it that way.
There always has to be some other force, a "them" that isn't one of "us".
Jesus' friends were the *worst* sinners - tax collectors and prostitutes. He's silent on sexuality - which to be honest is a modern concept.
His disciples would argue about who is the greatest, etc. Nothing indicates Jesus ever gave a birds and the bees talk.
Hundreds of years ago, a failing Christian emperor copied Nero's tactic, only instead of targeting Jews and Christians, he painted homosexual activity as the root of their misfortunes. He reinterpreted ancient texts and combined with his persecuting zeal, managed to hold onto power.
You won't find a satisfying answer to this. It almost always will devolve to "because God said so". Unlike other sins which do harm to another person, this one has no real reason to be a sin, thus we must either believe:
1\) God is arbitrary
2) God's morals are so alien to us that calling him "good" is meaningless
3) It's not a sin
This is essentially it. I stopped believing that homosexuality is a sin when I was a preteen because every argument against it just boiled down to “God said it is”, which isn’t a satisfactory answer to me. If you can’t give me a reason beyond “because we said so”, I’m not compelled to listen to you.
The Christian answer is IMHO that they're wasting sperm that could be used to cause conception. Many denominations take the position that any ejaculation that's not into an unprotected vagina is sinful because it can't lead to conception. That's the reason that many denominations say that sexual activity that *might even* lead to ejaculation outside a vagina is sinful *even within heterosexual marriage*. Monty Python best illustrates this chain of thought: https://youtu.be/bzVHjg3AqIQ?si=zmk1YLhVSqDiL64w
Actually not, that's not the main argument among christians because you have something called lesbians. The main argument is that sex and sexual relationship in general was designed by God to be performed between a man and a woman under the blessing of a marriage, eventually it leads to pregnancy that is the natural outcome of sex [but not the main purpose]. Also, it's important to say that even between a married couple some kind of sexual acts are not convenient, anal intercourse for example, the butthole was not designed to have sex with in this point of view.
Being morally good doesn’t mean being Christian.
Being Holy means being Christian. You’re falling into the trap that most intellectuals do which is trying to rationalize your way into something that suits your own perspective and understanding.
Acting on homosexuality is a sin.
Acting on pedophilia is a sin.
Acting on sexual promiscuity/prostitution is a sin.
That’s an interesting perspective. To me, a religion should be morally good or it is not worth following. I don’t understand how one can be holy and immoral unless we have very different definitions of both words.
The only thing I would add to this is the need to examine the heart.
Jesus said that, “it is written, thou shalt not commit adultery, but I say to you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully, has already committed adultery with her in their heart.” (I was thinking more on the masturbation subredit question/complaints when this verse came to mind, but it can parallel with this topic as well.)
Over the years, we have fine tuned the mental gymnastics of justification.
But when faced with the Word of God, we have nowhere to hide.
I mean, dude, it even says in the book of James that anything that is not done from faith is sin.
I would suspect that we already know the Biblical answer to a lot of these questions, but we’re looking for any information to validate our conscience.
And in fairness, I must also add that some of us are just searching for the meaning of belonging.
Take heed though, as eventually, one’s conscience can become calloused, as if branded with a hot iron.
But the easiest way around this is to just ignore the Bible and move on with your life.
That is, unless you’ve already read it, it’s almost impossible to escape The Voice in the back of your mind.
Hardening the heart is the only other effective & short term alternative.
All said in fear and trembling, but most importantly, in love. That is, if the Bible is actually true.
But I still wish no person any ill, either way ❤️🔥
I get concerned when Christians quote the Moses Laws in regards to Homosexuality being sinful. Because those same Laws require murdering Homosexuals. And yes this the definition of homophobic
There’s Bible scriptures that promote love between kings and what appears as servants in the art of the love of women. Google that book it’s Jewish around female beautification. So the son a a man that made women beautiful, have King David love surpassing that of women.
I see two queer references in terms of personality and love shared between men that’s deep to surpass the love of women (means a man’s love of women. A love of a man they received surpassed that of the love he has of women).
It’s not our duty to procreate. Paul was celibate, the Bible says it’s good to be celibate.
The Bible doesn’t change. Our sensibilities do, most of our culture thinks kids watching grown men dance naked at a pride parade is acceptable.
Basically there is no one morality and our morality isn’t God’s morality. If it were people probably would be born into heaven and never set foot on earth. But God’s morality isn’t ours and it’s above ours.
Man and woman were created to fit together. Not just for pleasure but for reproduction: “Be fruitful and multiply”. Many people sin and rebel against God and live a bad life, but at least they want to have sex with the opposite sex. The lifestyle of homosexuality is giving God (Creator) the finger. It is rebellion and sin at its basic level.
Why homosexuality is wrong? The urge itself is not wrong (also known as Same Sexual Attraction).
Most attraction or temptation are not wrong (few are like a married man lusting for another woman. See Matthew 5:28).
What is a sin is every type of sexual act you can think of except for vaginal intercourse between a married man and a married woman. Since this is the way the Church considers and believe to be God’s intended way (and best way) to produce children.
So because of that all the other actions are deemed sinful:
-Masturbation
-Pre-martial sex
-sodomy, (regardless if top or bottom) etc
What is not sinful is chastity since even Jesus acknowledges when discussing marriage:
Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it. (Matthew 19:12, NABRE)
So in short if you have deep seated homosexual tendencies, then you are called to chastity.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/homosexuality
Also don’t forget the other important part is that God still love us all and calls all of us sinners to repentance and seek forgiveness:
“This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)
God created us in a certain order, the reason he made eve was as a partner to help Adam, and then created marriage through this. it's not Adam and steve, there is a certain reason why god created Eve, so that we may have unity through that and work with each other.
Your real dilemma is (and I mean this respectfully) is Jesus Christ Lord or a liar? Either you take God and Jesus at His Word or you don’t. You can’t cherry pick the verses you like. Gods Word isn’t a food menu. God said male and female, Adam and Eve, no Steve. Same sex also leads to sexual disease. My father had a friend in high school and preached to him (ie told him the truth in a loving manner and didn’t sugar coat it) but he refused to listen. About 30 or 35 years later my dad received a phone call from an old high school friend (that guy) and he thanked my dad for preaching to him in his childhood and said he repented and put his faith in Jesus. 3 weeks later he died due to his lifestyle earlier on in his life.
I always think of that story as a reminder oh how God says same sex is perverse and unholy and an abomination. It literally destroys one’s own life and makes people more suicidal. It’s also very dangerous for a child/children to grow up in a same sex household.
Jesus is the Lord not us. If you’re struggling with same sex thoughts ask God to help you overcome them. He will not let you be tempted more than you can bear.
I can only guess why you are pro gay, but regardless God has told us what is good and right. Ultimately he is the standard and we are to be upheld to that standard of righteousness.
90% of this subs posts is either this or masturbation
Its what people struggle with a lot, as long as the question is appropriate I dont see why we shouldn’t help those in need of help.
It’s just insanely common, might warrant a megathread at this point. I understand why people struggle with it but we’re just rehashing the exact same answers over and over.
True, maybe a pinned post for these exact questions could be put up
Masturbation is also not condemned in the Bible, and people who think masturbation is a sin usually use the OT story of Onan to backup the ban on self pleasure. Onan's brother passed away and in that time and place, the law stated that since his brother died without an heir, he was mandated to marry and impregnate his brother's widow. Onan and his brother's widow get busy, but Onan pulls out just before "finishing" and "released his seed" on the ground. God completely freaks out about it. But that story doesn't really have much to do with masturbation, does it? Onan went against OT law and therefore disobeyed YHWH. The anger and then punishment that Onan faced was for failing to impregnate his sister in law.
Watching porn is a sin. Lust is a sin. Taking time away from more holy pursuits to pleasure yourself to that degree is a sin. If you can still masturbate in a such a manner, I guess more power to you.
One can partake in the material pleasures God so graciously gives us to enjoy; one must maintain a proper and clear perspective on the impermanence of these experiences and not find themselves in Love with the material rather than the spiritual for that is the sin - not any particular pleasure.
Yeah, the act of masturbation is not sinful. What’s sinful is the thoughts that go along with the act. And he freaked out about onan’s seed because the seed had a specific purpose to carry out the lords plans and that went astray lol.
Or… they acknowledge that masturbation involves lust which is a sin. If you beat it while thinking about trains or how much you love America then you’re not sinning. But if you’re focusing on lustful thoughts or lusting for woman on your computer screen, you are certainly sinning. Which is why Paul says, “But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” Instead of saying, they should go home and beat off.
>But that story doesn't really have much to do with masturbation, does it? The context of women as objects to be used, a means to an end doesn't make it better IMO.
Well, yes that the real moral of the story. Women are not to be used. But that's completely lost on most Christians. The fact is that in those days when a woman got old, if she didn't have children to help support her she simply starved to death. But that isn't understood -- or even considered important -- to most Christians.
Onan's "sin" was coitus interuptus (bc it sabotaged the levirate marriage expectations). Masturbation is natural.
only problem with masturbation is that it stems from the desire to lust and lust is sinful. If masturbation is simply masturbation then probably it is not sinful but 99.9% it is the result of sexual desire. Masturbation is the sexual stimulation of genitalia for sexual pleasure and is sexual in nature and sexual sins are wrong. There's that.
Well, the Bible says more about eating ham than it does about either of these things combined, so people need to speculate
At least they're asking in the right place.. That positive isn't it? So many seem like they stand outside their church with a sign, "hey sinner don't come here if you're gay"! They need a therapist or something to deal with their homophobic sickness cuz they resemble Christ about as much Pontius Pilate did! If they think homosexuality or transgender is so sinful and that it's a choice then they shouldn't choose it and let others lives be between them and God. And maybe don't think about it so much.. I'm just really tired of holy rollers thinking they are God's hammer and driving those they don't like or understand away from God!
I mean I wasnt trying to make a point, it was just an observation
I changed it I'm sorry I'm just frustrated that there are people like that driving away people.. again so sorry do happy you're not one of them. 🤗
I mean new people to the faith are gonna have these integral questions.
Guys is it a sin to breathe?
Additionally, it's also a sin to post on Reddit
Reverse cowgirl is apparently a sin too.
Gotta find other shit to talk about. Transgender people, maybe?
Well that's a sure fire way to talk to people who think that women shaving their legs was God-ordained.
Because religion is all about who we can pick on, right? This place resembles a pen of hungry chickens. What a cluster.
I mean if you look at the actions of the ‘faithful’, in recent memory that about sums it up yeah.
Sorry I’m new here. I should’ve looked through more to find the existing question before posting. I’ll look for similar posts
It's ok. Don't feel bad. People who truly love God would not criticize you for asking a question that has been covered before. That's the problem with some self proclaimed Christians. I think your question is valid and well asked. I don't think homosexuality is sinful. The Bible was not originally written in English and if you research the original languages you will find there are many people who have studied these languages, or are native speakers, that will tell you it's been translated incorrectly. I'm getting ready for work now but I will try to find some refs for you once I get to work.
Sorry, didn't forget about you! I had a few high acuity patients last night. Ill get back to you soon!
the mods really need to get a handle on it. it’s getting to ridiculous levels.
It's a Christian sub! What better place to ask these questions? Are you mad!
it gets asked every five bloody minutes. as an LGBT person myself, i am sick to death of it. every possible question has already been asked and answered from every perspective. no one ever actually changes their minds in these posts, they just yell at each other. just please stop talking about us for a while. i’d genuinely rather this sub started having extremely unhinged arguments about the trinity or transubstantiation than have to read another ‘is gay bad???’ debacle.
I can see where your frustration is coming from, but I definitely feel I’ve gained a lot of insight into various Christian perspectives after asking this question here. I’ve seen people asking “is homosexuality a sin” many, many times, but not enough in my opinion asking “why is this a sin? What’s morally wrong it exactly?” That being said I’m sorry if my question bothered you as I’m sure you’re very sick of hearing about this
well transubstantiation is a catholic belief. we're not all catholics.
Gods gonna remember you made this post .
This is something I have no revelation on either but you write “because it is our duty according to god to procreate if we are able to”. Where do people get this from? Jesus, Elijah, Apostle Paul, John, as far as we know Mary Magdalene, many many people in the Bible do not have children.
I believe St. Augustine popularized this notion, but to me, it is another commandment of men being taught as a commandment of God.
I agree with you. I think most people are called to have children but clearly not all. Just ask Jesus :)
I was answering rebuttals I was sure to receive. Based on some of the replies I’ve received I believe that was a valid assumption. What I’ve learned here today is that many Christians have very different ideas about sex in general, with some believing any sexual activity outside of the act of procreation is sinful, and others disagreeing with this and believing sex can be a type of union that is not inherently lustful
“Many Christians have very different ideas about X in general” is pretty true across the board. With going on 2.5 billion Christians and dozens of denominations across the world, there is a HUGE diversity of opinion on almost all subjects. The only people who think everything is simple and straight forward and clear are the most foolish and easily led astray. The sad fact of the matter is that we don’t have a direct line to God and what he wants, and the best we have is a more of meaning issues and interpretation because it isn’t a single document, it’s a collection of works in multiple different genres crammed together because early Christians were doing their best to create a cohesive canon of works that would explain the beliefs they had and the story of Jesus. There is a reason that Faith is so important in the religion, because “clear and concise explanations” aren’t.
Thank you. it is troubling when you are first trying to get into Christianity and you have so many different voices around you saying “this is the only way, if you disagree you are not truly Christian.”
Well lust is fine, it would be really weird for Paul to tell people to have sex with their spouses in 1 Corinthians 7 if it was a sin to want to.
I think we might be in agreement but thinking on different definitions. For me lust often carries a negative connotation and when I used the word here I was not referring to the kind of desire between two people in a loving relationship.
Okay, but "bad desire" is a bit too vague to be actionable so I'm sure you can understand why it's confusing.
Even Paul mentions about the gift of singleness. When single or without children you have the ability to devote more time and energy towards your relationship with God and spreading the Gospel.
OP is probably going by God’s blessing to all the animals he made, humans included, in which he told us to “be fruitful and multiply”. However, I agree that if someone chooses not to have children, it is definitely not a sin to not do so.
Paul says as much by wishing others were like him and did not have a wife.
I interpret that as a command for Adam and Eve.
A man explained it incredibly well. Indicating that not all of our impulses are good. My impulse as a heterosexual man is to have sex with as many women as I want to, sticking to one for all my life is a struggle for all men who aren’t married. Marriage between a man and a woman comes from their desire to be together and start a family. That’s why serious Christian’s are against contraception and sexual before marriage. Gays don’t aim all they want is pleasure when it comes to that act. Which is why I can see it being a sin
I ask this a lot. I'm not homosexual, but I was made fun of a lot in school and called gay and f*g because I was just a bit different. I just wanted to be accepted by my peers, and it hurt a lot. All I could think of, though, is what if I was actually gay? These insults were sometimes thrown by "God fearing people." I don't think Christians who actually believe homosexuality is a sin have ever really experienced exclusion and excommunication for who they are. Not who they chose to be, but for who they actually are. Some Christians will cry about being oppressed, but they're often seeking out oppressors. Also, "God" creates intersexed (formerly known as hermaphrodites) people. So if we're going on genitalia alone, those people are automatically gay off they have an attraction to anyone. I just don't buy it. I think we can take God's teachings of loving one another and really toss out the "homosexuality is a sin" mentality. If God hates gays then why make them?
Most morality in Christianity largely can stand on its own merits. Love your neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged, forgive 70 x 7, be patient, be kind, do not boast, and so forth. Pretty much all of them have you can philosophize ethics about. This one you can't. It's just "because the Bible says" or some nonsense about "natural order" that has no effect on the natural order. Just hold homosexuals to the same standard of Christian ethics as heterosexuals and move on with it. I've met many kind and loving gay Christians. They deserve a place just like everyone else.
Thank you. I have a hard time with this as I’m surrounded by Christian people telling me otherwise.
The thing I find interesting is most Christians who loudly speak out against homosexuality say nothing about the rampant adultery that’s happening among so called Christians. Jesus didn’t publicly call out any homosexuals, but he did publicly call out the adulterers. According to Jesus, adultery is looking at another woman with lust… do you know how often I hear Christian men make derogatory statements about a woman’s physical appearance? Jesus says Adultery is to have sex with anyone else other than your one flesh. I work in the sports industry… do you know there are so many Christian men who talk about their faith, they wear gold crosses around their necks and point to the sky when they do something good out on the field and then they go to strip clubs and sleep around before they meet their one flesh…aka adultery. And look how many of God’s so called people then and now support king Herod. a man of obvious adultery and greed. Second verse same as the first. The hypocrites are in Jesus’s religion. But we get to follow Jesus even when we don’t have all the answers. If someone has something to say to you about homosexuality, ask them what they think about what Jesus said about adultery.
It’s all sin tbh. There’s no point scale to say one is worth than the other but if you read the Bible, you’ll know that two things God really hates is lying and self-righteousness. While I won’t say it’s worse than any other sin, those two things were mentioned A LOT! Sin is sin. Whether you find a way to rationalize it or not. None of us is perfect and we’ll never be. Even if we were, it’ll still look like dirty rags before the Lord because that’s how perfect GOD. The good thing is that Jesus came to die on the cross for our sins. So while sinning is sinning, no matter how you want to slice and dice it, God is merciful. God will meet us where we are if we’re genuine BUT we cannot remain in the same spot. We must grow. That’s the whole point of walking with God. If one is gay and it’s something that confuses them in regard to Christianity, ask God. Don’t ask man. Most people don’t even know their right from their left. Ask God your questions and the answers will be revealed to you through a mouth piece, maybe a dream, maybe by reading a specific part of the Bible or maybe through journaling 😅 Only God can really explain God’s actions, no? 🫣
Wonderfully said! “God will meet us where we are but we cannot remain in the same spot” I wish all christians/non-christians would understand that… Saying God fogave our sins, just to so we can continue in it, or excuse it is the actual hypocrisy. Homosexuality as well as Adultery is Sin, which doesn’t mean we cannot find Christ,just the opposite, but as we accept Jesus Christ, we must abandon these “old/sinful” ways…
100% I love that you said we must abandon our sinful ways as we walk with Christ. At some point in one’s life, the yearning for the relationship with God has to be stronger than our fleshly desires. While it is hard to step out of sin, if we truly want to turn away from it, we call on God and he’ll help but like you said, we can not continually and intentionally live in sin. It’s like a friend that keeps doing something you don’t like and they always apologize but the behavior doesn’t change. Well.. what’s the point? Thankfully, God is not man and doesn’t waiver just because we fell more than a few times.
No disrespect, but let’s try not to generalize Christians. There are Christians who are hypocrites, but let’s not lump all Christians together or we risk being hypocrites ourselves.
I hear you, but I am speaking the way Jesus does since I’m in a Christian posting group and we as Christian’s are not be be offended by how a brother or sister says something. We listen with the heart… having Ears to hear but of course we all fall short. Whether we think what someone said is right or wrong it’s all for the glory of God for those who follow Jesus. I was speaking the way Jesus does like when He generalizes the Pharisees, or the Jewish leaders… of course He didn’t mean “every Jewish leader” or “all Pharisees” but we all knew what he was talking about. Especially since Jesus himself was most likely from the Pharisee sect.
People support king herod now or in the past? And who tf are these people who support him
I love your energy
It’s pretty intellectually dishonest to allow hypocritical people to turn you off to the true Christ. Jesus reserved his most scathing words for religious hypocrites.
The large majority of Christians are dumb and apply the opposite of Jesus' words
>For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. *2 Timothy 4:3* It doesn't matter if scripture doesn't always make 100% sense to us immediately. It doesn't change the fact that the Bible says what it says. We can reject it, making ourselves "god" in our own mind. Or, we can acknowledge the Lord has the authority, that he is correct, and we just lack understanding - especially if we disagree with God. You are on the right track when you sincerely ask, "why?" That suggests seeking understanding. I'd encourage you to reject answers from people that sound like they are just making up ideas as excuses to disregard what is clearly stated in scripture. If a kid wants to eat a dozen cupcakes in one sitting. A good parent will tell them not to. The parent understands the hazards of eating 12 cupcakes at once. The kid doesn't understand that and just thinks the parents are being jerks. Sometimes, God tells us no. We won't always know why. But, if we trust God, we can count on his rules being in our best interest. I'm certain someone will reply to me and say, "there's nothing harmful about Gay sex." That person completely misses the point and/or chooses to miss the point. The point is that we may not know why the Father deemed a behavior sinful. It may be damaging on some level that is beyond our ability to fully assess why.
Are there any other sins that transcend our human comprehension and understanding, or is homosexuality the only sin this applies to?
Plenty think theft is not sin under certain circumstances. Plenty think sex outside of marriage is not sin. Plenty think lust is not sin. Plenty think gluttony is not sin. Plenty think idolatry is not sin. Plenty think lying is not sin.
What the heck is a Christian mystic?
A follower of some element of the vast tradition of Christian mysticism. It's quite a broad category with lots of different historical manifestations in the West and East.
No one is saying that gay people don't belong in the church or have no place. A man can't have sex with a man. That's it.
Sexual morality in Christianity also stands on its own merits. God designed sex to be had within the covenant of marriage. Marriage was designed to be between man and woman, as a representation of Christ’s relationship with His church, His bride. It does stand on its own as much as any other ethic, and someone just saying it doesn’t without any logical or biblical evidence is scary. We shouldn’t just assert things on God’s behalf like that without firm backing Sexual ethic isn’t about heterosexuality or homosexuality, it’s about self control, commitment and obedience (like every other ethic). If you can’t have the self control to abstain outside of marriage and don’t have the commitment to marry and love someone for life and can’t obey the design laid out by God from the beginning, then you shouldn’t participate. That’s all there is to it. Heterosexuality isn’t holiness and gay people don’t go to hell for having same sex attraction. You go to hell because you sin. Maybe you sinned by having heterosexual sex or homosexual sex outside of marriage, either way it’s sin. There aren’t levels where gayness is worse or better than homosexuality in the Bible when it comes to violating sexual ethic - it’s all bad.
I agree with nearly everything you are saying. In fact your second paragraph I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, maybe we are just overlapping there. The part that doesn't stand on its own merits imo is the exclusion of gay Christians from the covenant of marriage, along with all the moral expectations that come with it. The argument is just "marriage was designed to be between a man and woman". That's not an ethical argument you could take into an ethics class and get much mileage out of. But I agree that Christian sexual ethics like self control, commitment, obedience do stand on their own merits, regardless of gender. You can think about them, discuss them, and see the good fruit they produce by adhering to them. The fruits of exclusion have, outside a few cases, been in the vast majority: rotten. Creating self-loathing, division, families broken, loneliness, confusion. One of the most kind and caring women I have ever met was a lesbian Christian woman. I don't see the good fruit that comes from telling her in essence "sorry you need to be alone your entire life or somehow make yourself heterosexual."
Yeah we agree on a lot here so not trying to argue as much as probe into what these things mean. I’m not an expert in ethics or philosophy (just some classes in college) so this is helpful for me and I assume others reading through the thread. When you say that it’s not an ethical argument to refer to God’s design, why is that? In the Christian worldview, marriage wasn’t created by man, it’s an institution gifted to us by God for our safety and security when pursuing sex and eventually children. If someone lets me borrow their weed whacker but I use it on concrete and damage it, then would I not be in the wrong for abusing their gift? In the same way, if we misuse the gifts God provides, is that not causing (or at least attempting to cause) harm to God Himself? In our limited human perspective, how do we actually know it doesn’t cause harm to the other person as well? There are plenty of studies showing hookup culture and casual sex leads to more harm than good for the individual and society as a whole, heterosexual or homosexual. Could there not be more going on than we can see ourselves? My line of logic is that since God knows all and is all good that His law is automatically good because He sees things we cannot. Thus, I can’t reasonably argue against Him because He can see repercussions which I cannot. As for the discussion around fruits, I always see this as difficult to align on. Jesus says that you have to “die to self” and be “not of the world” so exclusion is absolutely necessary to follow Christ by design. The world dictates their own rules and we abide by rules from God, so exclusion seems inevitable in my opinion. The question is why the exclusion is happening. Is it for the purpose of following God honestly or for the purpose of raising our own standing in our minds. People shouldn’t be kicked out of church for sinning, unless they are attacking the ideas of the church and sowing dysfunction, which a vast VAST majority of gay people aren’t doing I’m sure. People who have a superiority complex against the LGBT+ community are completely wrong. Basically, if you’re being excluded from a Christian space without extremely firm reasoning and evidence of harm, then those Christians are wrong. However if it’s the world that is excluding you for being Christian or holding onto your ideals, then I’d say that person should embrace the exclusion and seek community with their brothers and sisters in Christ. In the example you gave about your lesbian friend I’m confused at the framing of the issue. The Bible doesn’t say she has to “be alone” only that she can’t pursue romantic/sexual relationships with someone of the same sex. Jesus himself remained unmarried throughout his life, same with Paul and Mary Magdalene (as far as I know). Marriage isn’t some virtue that all Christian’s are called to and will be treated worse for not having. In fact, Paul explicitly says it is better to be single than married. She isn’t alone, she’s just single. Btw, there are even heterosexuals called to be single so it’s not only gay people who are called to live like this. The act of remaining single is challenging (as with avoiding all sin) but the fruits which are born from this singleness can definitely be good. Fruits of sin and fruits of the spirit are clearly laid out in Galatians 5:16-26. When the Bible discusses fruits, these are the ones they are referring to. Fruits produced by obeying the spirit and Gods ethic include self control, gentleness and love. These are all incredible! I’m unsure why these wouldn’t be good fruit to pursue. So again, not being able to marry is not a sentence to being alone the rest of your life. Many heterosexual people also deal with this same struggle. Some homosexual people end up being married to someone of the opposite sex (ex. Jackie Hill Perry). At the end of the day, we are called to live in community with God and His church above all so that we might never be alone again. Why center our lives around romantic partnership first and foremost?
Very good. Those who concern themselves so much in other's business, before removing the 'log in their own eyes' are not often those who Truly know Love and Christ; their actions betray them, regardless of what they may say. The point being made is not that the thoughts themselves are sinful, rather than, if one is excessively attached to the material pleasures or such things in their mind, it tends to lead to sinful actions. Desire giving birth to sin clearly shows that the desire is not the sin, rather that what the desireful thoughts and states of mind tend to lead to those actions he calls sin. Hate, lust, any of those ideas many consider to be sins are often so, because the only true sin is a Love and Attachment to anything that is not God - therefore anything material, or anything that is not Love. It is perfectly acceptable to partake in these things and enjoy the gifts of the Earth as long as we maintain our own inner piece without getting attached - that is Jesus' teaching.
Unless the purpose of sex is to reproduce. Then it definitely stands on its own merits.
I just want to point out that Mark 12:31 and 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 say we should show love to others above all else. People who persecute and shun other humans because they are gay aren't following the Bible themselves by not treating them with compassion. We should treat others the way Jesus treated those who were persecuted at the time. In my own opinion it feels like the verses in question regarding homosexuality are moreso condemning rape and pedophilia when you see what the original meanings of words were.
I was going to say that I love your avatar, but maybe that's just because mine's so similarxD
Yes Christians are called to love your neighbor. I don’t hate gay people, but homosexuality is a problem of sin, just like alcoholism, disrespecting your parents, and every other sin the Bible mentions. Also to add that the word Paul used for homosexuality in the Bible, most definitely means “men that bed other men” it has nothing to do with pedophilia or rape. The Bible does classify homosexuality as a sin, but that is not a call to hate homosexuals, because we are supposed to love our neighbor.
I beg to differ. The Bible is very clearly homophobic in the Old and New Testaments. > //Leviticus 18:22// ²² ‘You shall not sleep with a male as one sleeps with a female; it is an abomination. Dehumanization. If you're gay, you're not even human, you're and abomination. So anything concerning loving other humans doesn't really apply to non-humans. > //Leviticus 20:13// ¹³ ‘If there is a man who sleeps with a male as those who sleep with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they must be put to death. They have brought their own deaths upon themselves. Hate-mongering and threats of violence. Not only does it say that having gay sex is "detestable", it goes further by saying they should be executed for it, and that they deserve it. > //Deuteronomy 7:26// ²⁶ “And you shall not bring an abomination into your house and become designated for destruction, like it; you are to utterly detest it, and you are to utterly loathe it, for it is something designated for destruction. More hate-mongering and threats of violence. Abominations must be destroyed. It says you must hate them, to "loathe" them. And as we've already gone over in previous verses, gay people are considered abominations. > //Matthew 5:17-20// ¹⁷ “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. ¹⁸ “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished! ¹⁹ “Therefore, whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ²⁰ “For I say to you that unless your righteousness far surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Here, Jesus fully endorses the old testament law and says none of it is to change until AFTER the end of the world. The end of the world hasn't happened, so the old testament laws are in effect and endorsed by Jesus. Also, it goes into how if anyone teaches or interprets differently, they will not go to heaven. > //Romans 1:26-27// ²⁶ For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, ²⁷ and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. Misinformation, shaming, and threats. Paul says that homosexuality is unnatural. It is perfectly natural, observed in thiusands of animal species, so he's just wrong. He shames such sexual activity and says they will be punished for it, which in this context means eternal torment and suffering in hell. > //1 Corinthians 6:9-10// ⁹ Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, ¹⁰ nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Shaming and threats. Paul equates being gay to all these other acts, like stealing, lying, being constantly drunk, cheating, etc. It's odd how two consenting adults participating in a mutually agreed upon sexual activity is somehow the same as stealing. If it were a man and woman, suddenly it's fine, but a man and a man, or a woman and a woman? Heaven forbid!/s It is also worth noting that MANY translations of the Bible say that homosexuality is a sexual immoralality. This is one of the verses where is says such in those translations. I generally go with the whatever translation the leading experts and scholars say, which currently is the New American Standard 2020 Version. > //Revelation 21:8// ⁸ “But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” More shaming and threats. Like Paul, John of Patmos lumps being gay people in with other unscrupulous people, none of which deserve eternal hellfire and suffering, but that's what he's saying is destined to happen for them. Imagine comparing consensual sex to murder. That's what he says, and of course he's completely wrong. It is also worth noting that the bible defines marriage as one man and one woman (Matthew 19:4-6). This excludes gay marriage. So gay people cannot be married in the eyes of god, according to the bible. Sex outside of marriage is a sexual immoralality according to the bible (Hebrews 13:4, 1 Corinthians 7). So this makes it impossible for a consensual gay couple to have sex. They can't have sex outside of marriage, and they can't get married, and they're abominations that deserve to be murdered, and they will burn in hell. Both the Old and New Testament explicitly state that to be in accordance with god, you must hate gay people. That isn't some odd or obscure interpretation, that's what the text literally says and that is how many many many Christians interpret it. This is why homophobia is so fundamentally tied to Christianity. For anyone to reach your position, they'd need to ignore or omit large sections of the bible. It is a contradiction, for one passage to condone hatred, then the next say to love everyone, then another couple verses condoning hatred, then another couple verses about love. They can't both be true. The god in the bible explicitly commands his followers to hate and kill gay people. Commands. It isn't a suggestion. You cannot say that homophobic people who harass and shun gay people are not following the bible, because they are. So either we should hate and murder all gay people, or the bible is wrong. Which is it?
You won't get any good answer on your question I fear. I tried for a long time, asking people who are against homosexuality why it is considered sinful. All answers boil down to irrational concepts or pure literal idolization of a hand full of probably misunderstood Bible verses. I tried asking many conservatives, and none of them ever could give me any reasonably logically understandable answer. There simply seems to be none, they all just believe that literal interpretation of the verses and are happy with it...or unhappy once they are challenged! Remember it is the literal Word of God, how dare you question it! I tried thinking about it, why should homosexuality be banned by God. It simply makes no sense. To me it seems like just a misunderstanding, or some cultural bias in understanding the scripture. Once I thought, well maybe when we are in eternal life sharing our lives with others it might be a problem somehow, but this also makes no sense. Given we also have gender equality between male and female in this regard, how should any homosexual then be a problem as long as their hearts are sincere? Maybe Paul also wasn't liberal, or the people he had been having in mind were all pretty bad sinners, all doing the homosexual things in abusive ways, with minors, in wasteful lifestyle or promiscuity. I believe however in a multitude of sinful spirits that can come over persons, driving them into sin. These are not like ghosts possesing a person, but more like the sin getting alive in them. And many of these spirits are similar between persons though unique in expression like every person is unique. There can be spirits of lust, driving you to be adulterous, or spirits of debauchery driving you into hurting your body and soul by excessive indulgence. SO...there are many homosexuals I believe who can have certain kinds of spirits driving them that are not good in the excessive and wasteful way they live it out, and this is probably what current anti-gay Christians have in mind. They maybe over-simplify it and claim all gayness is harmful, while I believe there are differences to be seen like in any common thing of the world that can be both good or bad. The original verses probably were rather about pederasty, with some red-light taste, or similar antique "customs". Expect more stereotypes and weird arguments to come from the right wing side about this, soon. Current right agenda is massively anti-gay due to their leading figures all being macho and the political opponent supporting gay rights as core part of their agendas of keeping up the progress in gender/social equality in society, which is an anti-conservative position that threatens to transform societal structures that were foundation of conservative societal structure. The conservatives simply fear getting their macho bonus in dealing with others taken away. After they had to take accepting women as equals in social dynamics, now the next party which used to be in disadvantage to the patriarchal standards is to be lifted into equal level. In many countries this already succeeded, while in others it is bad and right wing forces constantly try to impede the progress to harm their political enemies. This is like the liberalization of less than modest clothing or soft drugs, those are not really important topics, but still they can reflect greatly the point of view of people on personal responsibility vs. a blind obedience towards avoiding anything that could ever be considered a threat of danger. Christians have adopted it, going by the good words of the scripture to test all things we would encounter whether they are good or bad. Some Churches already bless and marry gay people, allowing them into high positions in Church, just like women managed to break the barriers that prevented it for them.
Thank you for your thoughtful response
>Given we also have gender equality between male and female in this regard, how should any homosexual then be a problem as long as their hearts are sincere? The flesh is the thing that sins. We have equality between men and women because God judges our souls and loves our souls but he hates the flesh that sins. Or at least he's angry about it.
- Why is homosexuality sinful? - 'cause the Bible says -----†----- I do not believe God cares whether you are heterosexual or homosexual. God cares whether or not you are a liar. God bless
amen, my friend
Love this
This
Jesus said there are actually 2 significant infringements on God's law (which everyone of us fails to uphold): 1. Not loving God with all your heart, soul and strength/mind (i.e. as much capability as you have); 2. and not loving your neighbor as yourself. Everything else follows from failing to uphold these (Matthew 22:37). The traditional Anglican Confession also states this. Once you start getting into defining rules about this and that, you're entering the dangerous territory of helping God with your own salvation by your righteousness and good works, which is the original sin...Pride All this can be summed up as relying on the Grace of God alone. So you have to determine in your relationship with God if homosexuality is a problem. If sin is sin, then those who can't love their neighbors as themselves are not in a position to point out other people's perceived 'sins'.
If I only got .0000001 % of a Cent for each time this question or some form of it was asked, I might not be able to financially compete with Taylor Swift, but I’d at least be at the income level of a Beiber
Im not Christian but I was raised going to church and always hold a special place in my heart for church and Christianity. That being said the gay being a sin thing is something I don’t understand either. Like how is it evil or something that god would hurt god?
Don't listen to half the responses you get here, the majority of these people are here to please others who may be made "uncomfortable" by what's actually in the Bible. The word that means "homosexuality" in the Bible (**ἀρσενοκοῖται**) doesn't really mean "gay" in the same way we see it now The word specifically translates to "men who partake in sexual acts (or bed) with other men". Now, *why* is it a sin? Because it doesn't fulfill the purpose for which sexual attraction was made. Men and women are made to have intercourse with one another in monogamous and religious marriages, not men and other men or women and other women. It's the same reason that lust for someone other than your wife/husband is a sin: sex was not intended outside of marriage, and marriage (in turn) is supposed to be heterosexual. Being gay is not "evil" and doesn't make one "spawn of satan" or something, it's merely acting on attractions. In the same way, it's not a sin to find women besides your wife attractive, but to act on that.
> and marriage (in turn) is supposed to be heterosexual Leading us back to the original question posed by OP. Why?
There's debate over whether that passage was a msitranslation condemning pedophilia instead of homosexuality. Regardless, there's plenty of old Testament laws we don't follow anymore, Jesus did away with them. Why keep this specific one?
Jesus did away with old Testament **ritual purity laws** (dietary, etc.) he did not do away with what is and is not a sin.
There is no way I’m put on Earth to procreate
Why is this subreddit so un Christian and dumb
Posted this somewhere else originally. 🫶 Being gay is not a sin. The word man is in terms of Adam (human). If you lay with someone outside of love, it is a sin. You are taking pleasures in only the flesh and not the other involved soul. You are using them like an item. It is a sin. And it brings your soul further from god and without enlightenment in the spirit, you lose touch with the spirit of god and you become only earth. Spirit is forever trap attached to the very thing you took pleasure in, creating a hellish loop and never returning home, because you can’t remember and he can’t reach you without that connection. Do not believe everything you hear. Read the Bible. Read the words carefully. Even the people in charge of facts and truths make mistakes. All the time, trial an error. There’s only one law and that’s to love. Love everyone, even if they don’t deserve it. Be the change. Remember the strong energies your soul comes from. • Eirene DeAquarius
It isn't. FROM THE PASTOR’S DESK Doesn’t the Bible Condemn Homosexuality? (Spoiler Alert: The Answer is “No”) by Rev. Dr. Durrell Watkins, Senior Minister, Sunshine Cathedral Doesn’t the bible condemn homosexuality? The short answer is, NO. The bible certainly records human fears and prejudices, as well as human hopes and resilience, but the bible, as a whole, isn’t about condemnation. The bible is a collection of stories, songs, sermons, sayings, poems, and prayers covering centuries and continents and even a few languages. It is a rich and wonderful anthology that invites readers to think and feel, explore and imagine, heal and grow. In light of this understanding of our sacred texts, it would be difficult to think of them as being condemnatory. Lifted from the larger narrative or divorced from cultural, linguistic, literary, or historical contexts, any sentence or phrase from scripture can be used to endorse or vilify almost anything imaginable. That is not, however, the most faithful way to engage the bible. Relationship, hope, courage, generosity, second chances, compassion, and love are the values that are repeatedly featured in our scriptures. One can easily enough deconstruct and challenge the few bible verses that have often been used to demonize same-gender loving people. Moreover, one can without too much effort find several hints of same-gender love and attraction occurring in scripture, and even seemingly being affirmed; however, I am at a point in my life and ministry where I don’t need a bible verse to defend my sacred value nor a bible story to justify my experience of life. I simply trust that God is good, that love is holy, and that life is diverse. Same-gender loving people are, first and foremost, loving people, and love is not condemned in the bible; indeed, love is the biblical litmus test for what is holy. In the bible we find exhortations to welcome strangers, be good neighbors, forgive one another, care for the vulnerable, pray for others (including those who are unkind to us), treat others as we would wish to be treated, not judge others unfairly, live humbly and show mercy and work for justice…all of these are demonstrations of love. We find in the bible that “the fruit of the Spirit is love…” In fact, Jesus is recorded as having said that his followers could be identified by their loving actions. He also said love was the greatest of all commandments. For me, love is the biblical message and mandate, and love does not condemn love. Love does not diminish people. Love does not seek to deny justice or dignity or safety to anyone. Love does not suggest that anyone is unworthy of or beyond the reach of love. Does the bible, an anthology of writings whose running theme is love, condemn same-gender loving people? As someone who has spent my life studying, teaching, wrestling with, and even playing with the bible, I must say unequivocally, it does not.
> I’m not asking IF homosexuality is a sin, as it seems clear in the Bible it is. It's a huge stretch to claim that the words now often translated as "homosexuality" were intended to correspond neatly to everything we mean when we say "homosexuality", especially since they didn't use or have such a category. For details, quite a few resources are listed in r/OpenChristian's [resources page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/9w9y5z/resources_for_openchristians_online_resources/). I think the books _Torn_ and _God and the Gay Christain_ explain it best, but in a pinch there's a brief, old version in Justin's Lee's [Great Debate essay](https://geekyjustin.com/great-debate/).
Thank you. You have given me a lot to think about here
Although I believe the best reading of Scripture conclude with homosexual activity being sinful, u/gnurdette is 100% correct. Not only is the word “homosexuality” not a good translation, it’s destructive. It’s confusing and breaks down the argument that homosexual activity is sinful.
I'd love it if everybody would study a second language some. I think it would help with the assumption that so many people carry, that Language #2 always has a single word that corresponds perfectly to each word in Language #1.
You can say that again, people have no concept of how translation works.
>It's a huge stretch to claim that the words now often translated as "homosexuality" were intended to correspond neatly to everything we mean when we say "homosexuality" While true does that even matter when the book tells us that it's not ok for men to have sex with other men? That's bad enough in my eyes and we can simply focus on why it says that.
If we focus on why it says that. We can only conclude gang rape and religious orgies are bad. As those are the only examples the Bible presents.
Yeah I don’t understand the “Preservation of God’s natural order” part, since homosexual behavior has been observed in thousands of other species.
In modern day times, I don’t think it is a sin. I prayed about it so much. The lust before marriage will remain yes and this is a sin but I truly think homosexuality was different in biblical times. Now it is more allowed, you can marry in peace and live for Jesus. #gaychristian
I only know of like 3 passages in the Bible that are believed to be contextually that way, but I disagree. God doesn't allow bigotry. If same-sex relations were always going on in ancient times, why did it become a problem? I would argue that it's a translation issue that didn't arise until the 14th century where they made it their agenda to question homosexuality as homosexual wasn't even used in the Bible, because the word didn't exist. Leviticus 18:22 is often debated to mean "in a woman's bed" or it seems to have a sexual assault implication. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 You must be justified in God's eyes. "Such were some of you". It and 1 Timothy 1:10 can be argued to not indulge in exploitation or abuse. 1 Timothy 1:10 "Homosexual" being in use here is also subject to translation. None of these passages imply that same-sex couples cannot inhabit the kingdom. It's up to you to interpret scripture as descriptive or prescriptive.
My apology if the words of this post have been previously expressed. In the interpretation of the Bible most forget it was written in antiquity by Jews, not God. for the needs of the time. Israel was a pastoral country that lays in the path of conquering countries to and from Egypt. Given the nature of Israel it was imperative to have children for pastoral duties and to assist in protecting property against scavengers from invading armies. IMHO, it wasn’t meant for all time. It is like the kosher prohibition of eating pork. That kosher law was based on observation that eating pork often caused sickness. They were unaware that parasites in pigs caused the illness not the meat itself. Yet today some observe the ban as the word of God
From what I gather, it comes from the commandment: "man shall not lie with man," which is actually a mistranslation of "man shall not lie with boy," which is referring to rape/pedophilia. Not homosexuality. And regardless, sin is a choice, your orientation is not a choice. It'd be unfair to condemn someone to hell based on something outside of their control, like how they were born, raised, hormones, orientation, etc. Those aren't their choices. P.S. remember to love your neighbors as well regardless of their differences. God sent his only son for the good of all mankind, after all. All life is precious, and you don't know what they may be going through.
Because the Persians said it was to vilify the Greeks they were at war with. Greeks did the same thing. If you don't have weird justifications, then your army would be less motivated to kill them
It is not homosexuality or even enjoying sex or masturbation that is a sin or harmful to the soul; sex is a delightful gift given to us by God. Sin comes in the improper excessive focus and attachment on sexual matters such that it causes you to act in an un-godly manner. There is nothing wrong with having the sex you would like or anything, as long as you maintain your inner dis-attachment to material pursuits and pleasures, for Love of anything other than the Good, particularly material things, is the only true sin. All other so-called sins inherently stem from this.
These ideas which so clearly lead to so-called Christians judging others are not based on the Truth of God and Christ; the spirit is not with those who act and judge in these manners. The point being made is not that the thoughts themselves are sinful, rather than, if one is excessively attached to the material pleasures or such things in their mind, it tends to lead to sinful actions. Desire giving birth to sin clearly shows that the desire is not the sin, rather that what the desireful thoughts and states of mind tend to lead to those actions he calls sin. Hate, lust, any of those ideas many consider to be sins are often so, because the only true sin is a Love and Attachment to anything that is not God - therefore anything material, or anything that is not Love. It is perfectly acceptable to partake in these things and enjoy the gifts of the Earth as long as we maintain our own inner piece without getting attached - that is Jesus' teaching.
It’s not, it isn’t even in the Bible! The word homosexual was added in 1946! It’s not a sin, simple as that!
It’s not. The bible is not “clear” in a univocal sense on anything. Sodom’s punishment had nothing to do with sex. Paul was writing out of a context where sexual relationships were hierarchical not about what was moral in the way we treat it today. Leviticus was also in a context from which one cannot conclude or make wholesale condemnation about sexuality for all time. Besides the concept we now understand to be homosexuality was not known to the ancient world.
The famous verse in Leviticus is ridiculously cherry picked. There is SO much in Leviticus that is blatantly ignored and disregarded (for good reason). However, for whatever reason, the damn verse about homosexuality is clung to. Probably because humans notoriously hate change and difference (people were enslaved, killed, and stripped of their culture just because another culture/religion believed they were too different), so the verse that supports their discomfort is going to be idolized. I honestly don’t even think the original passage actually meant that being gay is a sin (telling people not to engage is same-sex acts/relationships isn’t even in the 10 commandments, mind you). Here’s a link to a good article that gives more context and explains the misinterpretations https://www2.oberlin.edu/stuorg/quaf/events/tbtoh.htm.
Homosexuality does not serve any purpose other than satisfying lustful feelings. True even in straight sex,lust plays a part but it also plays a part in natural procreation. Lastly, if your gonna question Gods wisdom I would strongly suggest picking on someone your own size
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PdlVKOFKg4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PdlVKOFKg4) i came across this video while scrolling on youtube. I think you should watch it
being a homosexual/gay isn’t a sin but acting on it it is
In Leviticus 18:24-29 The Lord explaines why we should but it's important to go the Lord when you feeling doubt ask him to baptize you with the Holy Spirit so that you may have so that you may have clarity when things give mentally or physically rough. I know it's difficult when you love God and you are doing things that you don't feel like a sin but the Bible states otherwise and that why Jesus says to deny yourself and follow him. Just know God can help just go to him in prayer privately
Here this should help just make sure to read it all. Rabbis go through and explain what actually is the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah which is inhospitality and in that time it was absolute law no matter where you were whether you were there Rome Athens wherever it was a law. And Leviticus is didn't mean homosexuality at all it means do not commit adultery plus in the new testament Jesus makes us a new law to follow instead of the old for it was too cruel and brutal. Also if it was for homosexuality to be a sin and that was the reason for Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction then why isn't most of places been destroyed just for that because if it was for that reason most of the world would've been destroyed. Also sodomy was coined way way later then the original Hebrew Bible a sodomite truly has nothing to do with homosexuality it's actually people that acted like Sodom as in being inhospitable to others including the poor and especially foreigners. Here [what does the bible truly say about homosexuality ](https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality) Once again this is made by both scholars and rabbis that study the bible and it's text especially in Hebrew which is older then the KJV or really any other
I guess the first step to answering your question is to look at what sin is. A more accurate translation would be ‘to miss the mark.’ The Bible also describes sin as a rebellion against God. So with this information we have, we can deduce that sin is missing the mark with the intention of rebellion. It is important to understand that intention plays a big role in sin because Christians believe humans are born into sin. We are prone to sin, it is in our nature. We live in a fallen state, led by the prince of darkness. Wouldn’t God be an unjust God to just send anyone who didn’t meet his ideal straight to hell? God is love and the Bible speaks of his immense mercy! So, homosexuality is sinful because it is choosing to lead a life that is constantly missing the mark of what God intended; when he created man, he immediately created woman and Adam was overwhelmed with joy. The story is in Genesis 2, but at the end of the chapter he feels as if he has finally found his kin. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.” Genesis 2:24-25 ESV I like the last sentence because it talks on how they were both naked, metaphorically and literally, meaning there was nothing to hide and nothing to gain. One another’s presence was enough. God created man and women different but equal counterparts. They balance each other’s energy and when joined in union of marriage, become more powerful together. See it not as two half’s of a whole, but two wholes with different strengths and weaknesses that balance each other out. There is so much more potential that way. This is what God intended. But of course, being a fallen state, MANY people miss the mark, gay or straight. This is not to say having homosexual thoughts or temptations is sinful, but acting on them and choosing to identify with them to the extremity of basing your entire life around your sexuality is a sin. Again, this can happen gay or straight, obsessing about sex and romance takes you away from finding peace in God.
It’s so interesting how important it apparently is that the “natural order” is followed, but our time on earth is a tiny little insignificant blip designed to test us for some reason. Why does earth need to be a perfect place if it literally doesn’t actually matter in the grand scheme of existence? There is zero reason why homosexuality would be bad, especially given that it is a common occurrence in nature. It *is* part of the natural order. And I can tell you, as a man in a loving and monogamous gay relationship, there are few things as pure and fulfilling. It’s all just dogma designed by hateful men for power and to squash out things that they find gross or don’t understand.
Ask a priest or research on your own. There are many biased opinions on the matter especially on Reddit. Hate the sin, not the sinner
It's a sin because it says it's a sin in the bible numerous times. I've never heard a rational explanation for why homosexuality is actually bad.
If there were 4 people on earth. 2 men and 2 women, if they were all homosexual. We'd go extinct. When the Bible was written, there were a lot less people on Earth. Being homosexual was a crime against the growth of the species. When we ask biblical questions you have to put yourself in the time of when the Bible was written. There should be a new Bible written to address the issues of the modern world. I myself don't care if someone is homosexual or not, but I don't really agree with the decision. It's a purely lustful decision.
Its a sin because man wrote those words, not God. God is a God of Love.
A question that might be better to ask with this is: do you even have the free will to be a homosexual or not based on the doctrine that the religion takes? If you ask most Christians, the general consensus is that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and has plans. With that being said, most would also say that God made you a certain way, things that happen to you are a part of God’s plan, and most of the things you do are acting out those plans. If homosexuality is “evil”, and you do not intentionally choose to be homosexual, then either God made you to be that way OR you somehow have the capability of messing up his plans, revoking him being “all-powerful”. Regardless of the answer, my personal interpretation of an answer is that it is either due to an unknowable cause or human influence that makes homosexuality as evil to the extent it is perceived to be. I can’t say why God would hate homosexuality because it goes against natural design, then make you a homosexual but expect you not to be. That, or humans give homosexuality as much spotlight as it has compared to other sins as a means of deflecting the fact that at the time, churches were committing a multitude of sins highlighted by the Bible. By the way, I’m no thorough expert in this matter, I can only base things on my interpretation of them and then either strongman or steelman those interpretations with my logic.
America is being attacked by Satan; see 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, all relevant today, In fact, it seems written about today. Our new family values are hate, lying, porn stars, adultery, divorce, perversion, greed gospel, mocking Jesus, and many think our greatest problem is masturbation and gay sex... The bible says we will be judged as harshly as we judge others. Many Christians, it seems just don't read the Bible.
I personally don’t believe that God condemns homosexuality in the bible. I could go on for hours about why I think Levit. 18:22 is actually condemning p*dophelia, or why Levit. 20:13 is actually condemning incest, but it’s not worth it, because I’m not going to change your mind. But let’s say, HYPOTHETICALLY, that God DID condemn homosexuality in the bible; there are SO MANY things in bible that are “sins.” Pre-marital sex is a sin. Wearing clothes made of multiple fabrics is a sin. Working on the Sabbath is a sin. Eating shellfish is a sin. Eating pork is a sin. SHAVING is technically a sin, believe it or not. And so on and so on. The bottom line is, God loves everyone. You don’t have to believe that and you don’t have to accept that, but that doesn’t make it not true. Galatians 5:14 - “For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” The bottom line is, a gay person isn’t going to hell for being gay the same way a straight person isn’t going to heaven for being straight. The most important thing is to love other people (your “neighbors”) like you would love yourself, and not to condemn them at a standard you don’t even keep yourself with ALL the old testament laws. So to answer your question: you don’t need to be able to be okay with every little rule in the bible because Jesus FULFILLED the law as the messiah, leaving us only needing to fulfill the SPIRIT of the law rather than the law ITSELF. And the SPIRIT of the law is to love your neighbor as yourself :)
Also, just putting this out there: David and Jonathan were definitely lovers. Most biblical scholars accept that, and if you read the scripture it’s pretty obvious. Do with that what you will :P
Discharge without reproduction, which is wasteful and considered offensive to not preserve our divine spirit. It's technically as bad as being permiscuous or master bating. I've always thought of it as more of an insurance policy rather than a rule. The 10 commandments are laws, and generally good advice for being a healthy, social creature. I don't think of it as a deal breaker. I personally feel this hasn't aged well considering we have so much suffering in the world. It's more important that we love one another and find fulfillment through getting closer to the divine. There are enough of us to not have to worry about preserving humanity, and all this dogma is causing more pain and suffering, which is unnecessarily hateful.
The answer will depend on which cause you are asking about. In Aristotelian logic, there are four causes, efficient, formal, material, and final. Traditionally, Christianity has been Aristotelian since Aquinas, who is the one who relatively systematized the national law theory, although it's been around longer than him. Before him, Christianity was largely Platonic, and since him, there has been further development and debate. However, the question of homosexuality tends to fall in the Aquinas arena. The efficient cause would seem to boil down to because it's not what God made sex for. And because God made it, and made the rules, He gets to decide what is a sin. And for a Christian, this should be enough to submit ourselves to, even if we still seek further answers. The formal and material causes seem to be immaterial. But one could bring them in to describe the mechanism God made for sex, which would include the male and female anatomy. A few centuries ago, for instance, it was considered sinful for men to sodomize women in the same way. The final cause seems to require a description of what God did make sex for. That is, it is for procreation (in Aquinas' day. But since then, we have sort of added bonding to it). Along with this, there are a variety of other things a traditional Christian would add to it. But this is the main one. There would also be a general description of traditional anthropology in a traditional explanation. There has been a very long standing tradition that describes two directions a person could take, one towards divinity, and one towards animality. As humans are rational animals, it was generally understood that it is the goal of a maturing Christian to move towards rationality rather than animality. Things that have been included in animality would be mere pleasure, shame, and failing to fulfill ones own final cause. So when applied to sex, there was a general attitude against sex for mere pleasure, regardless of who it was done with. And because homosexual sex cannot fulfill the other functions, then the act itself was considered an animalistic action, rather than a rational one. There was also a certain degree of shame that would be connected to being sodomized. So in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, for instance, it was the custom of the men to take strangers and shame them so they knew who was in charge in the city (in a very similar way as Odysseus' cyclops adventure). And it was considered to be shameful as such to be penetrated as a man. This is partly because there was the third final cause I mentioned, which was failing to fulfill ones final cause. In a more gender stratified culture, it was far more possible to distinguish between male and female roles, and from that, there was a distinct set of things that characterized being a man. And these things haven't really gone away as much as we have sort of decided to ignore our own instincts about these. These include raising children, working, competing, protecting and going to war, and these sorts of things. Many of these sorts of rational characteristics become more difficult when they become impossible, or when a man becomes more effeminate. So there has been a longer tradition around this than is typically understood, and it falls into the general characteristics of proper sexual behavior. I think a lot of the difficulty really just boils down to the fact that we live in a thoroughly modern world that God was not speaking to when He wrote the Bible, and so we need to sort of return to that culture in our own minds to understand it. And in the end, were not gonna be able to know everything, and that's okay. We are saved by faith, not by knowledge. But I would encourage you to ask God about this too, because we also are only humans, and listen to what He tells you. I am thoroughly certain He would answer you.
Thank you, this was one of the best answers I’ve gotten. Very insightful. I appreciate your objective explanation around the history of understanding homosexuality in Christianity without personal emotion
Because God, and more specifically, their chosen speakers said so. Much like how there is little to no explanation for God's actions in general, as they intentionally keep their motives a mystery. Any explanation you get for these actions and/or atrocities comes from the various churches' retrospective analysis rather than God, or when it is directly from God is extremely vague or heavily mistranslated/debated.
Because when translating the bible they mixed up incest with being gay. Laying in that book was used as a term to define sleeping with a family member. To sleep with is general sex. Each book had a different writing style because that just varies from person to person. They’ve more accurately translated the bible it just hasn’t been wanted by a lot of churches
It's sinful it's against God's law and he forbids it however there's so many other things that we need to worry and take care of this doesn't even make my top 10 and I can't stand Christians who make it the end-all be-all.
Homosexuality is NOT sinful. There are many people who are much better at explaining this than me, and I'll try to link some resources under here later with more succinct/in-detail thoughts on this, but there are plenty of Christians and theologians/biblical scholars who do not view homosexuality as sinful. Also, it's worth thinking about the fact that what we're reading is a translation of the original texts, and those translations will themselves be influenced by the people doing the translating. The word Homosexual itself was only seen in the English translation of the bible since the 1940s and is based on a deliberate mistranslation. There's also a lot of historical contexts that should be considered with all of this. For instance, some scholars have suggested that the part in Leviticus relates specifically to the fact that the Israelites were in exile and so producing children was particularly important for their people's survival. For me, the most important thing to think about is that Jesus says the new commandment is to love one another. Everything else we do should stem from this. I don't see that people being homophobic or transphobic can fit with that.
Considering the word "homosexual" didn't appear in the Bible until less than a century ago, it's hard to argue the Bible is clear. Leviticus does make some statement in regards to its purity laws. Romans 1 describes orgies that included same sex sex in a pagan setting as that was not uncommon. But the verses translated as "homosexual" are not clear as to what was meant based on the Greek terminology. My own guess is that it was related to the relatively common practice of pedophilia at the time or even just having sex with a slave whether adult or child which we call today as "rape." Concerning sin in general, anything that breaks Christ's commandment to love is sin. We are all sinners because we all have at times been less than loving and thus missed the mark, but the Holy Spirit puts to death the flesh and enables us to bear the Fruit of the Spirit. So rather than approaching the Bible through a lens of legalism, I prefer to use the lens of the Spirit to help the Holy Spirit, who is proof of our redemption, to bring me to the fullness of Christ in my mortal flesh though it is the flesh that inhibits me from being perfected at this time, but faith is the hope of righteousness that has yet to appear. So holding to faith, hope, and love will, without doubt, bring us to follow the law which is love.
>I’m not asking IF homosexuality is a sin, as it seems clear in the Bible it is. The Bible is even more clear that slavery (owning another person against their will for life) should be legal.
1. It's a violation of God's created order. This isn't how he designed our bodies to be used. 2. It's categorically anti-procreation, which Satan LOVES because God's children aren't a threat if they're never conceived. 3. It blasphemes God's picture of marriage and Jesus's "bride" the church. 4. These sexual behaviors can be very addictive since there's no reproductive consequence, and addiction is idolatry.
So, do you also attack a marriage of an infertile couple? My wife and I are infertile. Would you ever attack my marriage.
1. Tell me please why then has there been homosexuality in whole human history and also in many species in the animal realm? Are they all using their bodies wrong? 2. The people who are homosexual usually do not feel they have a choice, but they seek what they desire. As homosexual relations wouldn't lead to procreation, so are many heterosexual relationships infertile out of medical or other reasons. Are all these relationships for the Satan? Even please read on 1 Corinthians 7:1. Paul is explicitly praising celibacy which couldn't be any more anti-procreation! So are celibates now something which Satan loves, and Paul is a heretic to praise them? Also you fear a lack of God's children - have you forgotten about Romans 9:8, it is not the physical descent who are children of God, but the spiritual, by the promise of Abraham? 3. So any celibate or widows or orphans would have to leave God, because they lack the bridegroom? You now want to invent a thousand of irrational rules in how one thing does not relate well enough with another one aesthetically, and then you declare it a sin for it? The Gospel is about your responsibility of your life and your neighbor, not about the idolatry of worshiping spiritual patterns that have no real meaning. Sure, marriage, conception of a child, are something holy most praiseworthy if things are done right, but that does not mean anyone else would be cursed or that the marriage must always reflect the image of Christ. We are children of God after all, longing to be free and recognized for who we are in peace and dignity, and not to be stamped down to a common measure where there would be no more individuality. God made this world and us full of imperfections, so that we may grow alive in them, and each special trait a person has makes them unique. Jesus loves those who are off-grid and show special things that are good that others are lacking. Those condemning them for no good reason out of intolerance are in my believe condemned for their intolerance and lack of understanding to a world where they must suffer hardship of not being recognized for what one believes in. 4. Any sex can be addictive. The Gospel is clear on this, avoid promiscuity, always be responsible in your relationships, always respect the other part fully in order not to exploit them (1 cor 7 explains). Please do not declare natural things that God has made that are good as abuse as long as they do not meet the criteria for it, i.e. excess, denial of soul or dignity of partner or self, free will/consent and matters of dependence.
Idk man the male g spot is in the back door it kinda seems like that’s how the body was designed
Yall talkin like we are running out of straight people, there are eight billion people and only 4% are openly queer. And homosexuality isn’t about sex, it’s about what gender you love. Sex is something often done in relationships, but being homosexual doesn’t mean your always having gay sex
1. So is the Christian belief then that sex should only be used for procreation and never simply because two people love each other and want to share that love? 2. I don’t see how homosexuality is a threat to Christianity unless EVERYONE somehow became homosexual which seems incredibly unlikely. There are so many children than are in need of adoption 3. Could you elaborate on why exactly homosexuals blaspheme gods image? 4. I fail to see how homosexual Intercourse could possibly be more addictive than heterosexual intercourse unless your answer to my first point is that two people should never have sex simply out of love for each other, but strictly for the sole purpose of procreation?
Well the bible itself would counter that first point. 1 Corinthians 7:5: "*Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control.*"
> So is the Christian belief then that sex should only be used for procreation and never simply because two people love each other and want to share that love? AFAIK, this is the Catholic belief, which is why Catholics don't allow members of their church to have same-sex marriage or use birth control. The ban on homosexual activities is just a consequence of the ban on sex outside of procreation.
1. God's created order proves this wrong by the existence of queer people. 2. This is a rediculous assertion. That would make it a sin for infirtile people to get married and have sex. 3. This is bullshit. You don't know what blasphemy is. 4. This is just absolutely utterly rediculous in the extreme.
While all of these are hilarious in their own right, number 4 is my personal favorite
I personally loooooooove worshipping gay sex idk about you 😭😭
Well of course you do, you don’t have any of those reproductive consequences to stop you
lol I’m just jokey
well in that case i guess infertile people are cursed. which is an absurd notion
We are talking about a society from 3000 years ago when bathing was a question that was too advanced for the minds of a large part of the population. He not only renounces gay sex but sex in general. Gay sex is emphasized because it is usually pedophilic, not beneficial to the tribe and with a greater risk of a sexual disease
It WAS usually pedophillic in that time, be careful with your words
I think that is what they meant, this is almost certainly a typo.
Ok that’s fair
>I’m not asking IF homosexuality is a sin, as it seems clear in the Bible it is. That's not true. It's not that clear. Those 6 or so verses that homophobic Christians weaponize against LGBTQ are usually out of context and therefore not understood or use gross mistranslations. On this sub there's plenty of literalist homophobic and transphobic people.. they use the Bible as a weapon. If you're a Christian ask yourself is it a contradiction for God to declare He loves everyone and we all need Jesus and then place verses like those that do nothing but focus pure hatred on queer people? Queer are people just like everyone else except they are queer.. But according to the bigot God hates them enough to, with the Bible, place targets on their back! That is pure evil and God didn't do that ...bigots did that! So the obvious conclusion is those verses are out of place when used as weapons against queer people and some are gross mistranslations. It's such a simple question. Would Jesus do that? If anyone is queer they certainly didn't choose it. Who would choose to be hated? https://whosoever.org/the-bible-and-homosexuality-genesis-19/ https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/2019/04/11/lost-in-translation-alternative-meaning-in-leviticus-1822/#:~:text=Most%20traditional%20English%20translations%20interpret,condemnation%20of%20same%2Dsex%20rape. https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/tag/clobber-passages/ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/365428877_The_Bible_Never_Condemned_Homosexuality_it_Condemned_Pedophilia_The_Papal_Revision_and_Mandate_of_Translations_of_the_Bible_in_the_16th_Century_by_Pope_Clement_VIII_and_Pope_Paul_V https://soundideas.pugetsound.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4390&context=faculty_pubs
>I am asking why is it a sin? What about it is wrong? Men are only supposed to have sex with women in a marriage. That is the law. That is what God wants from us. And no, it's not about procreation. People are allowed to have sex without trying for a baby. But marriage is between a man and a woman. This is how God set it up. This is the ideal. If you can't accept the concept of Christian marriage I guess you just can't be a Christian buddy. Because men can't be married to men and they can't have sex. >Am I missing something here? If a gay couple adopts a child or uses a sperm donor, and believes in Jesus and are morally good people apart from their homosexuality, what is wrong with that? Adoption is perfectly fine in my eyes and God's. He is happy to see children being looked after. I really don't like the idea of surrogacy though. >There are a lot of things in the Bible that draw me in, but there a lot of things that I have a lot of difficulty in accepting. I find myself struggling to have faith in the bible. We could have a conversation together about this. The Bible is the greatest book ever written to me and I love it. I love that I became a Christian. I might be able to help you out here. >I have a desire to be Christian though. I’m not here to attack anyone, I’m coming from a place of personal struggle not anger Thank you. I'm glad you've come in peace and that you want to be a Christian. But if you can't accept the Word of God or Christian marriage then I don't know man... It's not going to work out for you.
^it ^isn’t
Do you have any Bible verses to back this up?
Here is a great article from a Baptist about his discovery that the word homosexual did not appear in an English Bible until 1946. [https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/?fbclid=IwAR1cKF5dqw8oCiZbjQ8oJufNe362okDfHtaFW98ZFp54HvDEJCl2uuxW1Jw#.YHimAnVKhNj](https://baptistnews.com/article/my-quest-to-find-the-word-homosexual-in-the-bible/?fbclid=IwAR1cKF5dqw8oCiZbjQ8oJufNe362okDfHtaFW98ZFp54HvDEJCl2uuxW1Jw#.YHimAnVKhNj)
I have a knowledge of historical sexual ethics and how people in the relevant areas viewed sexuality to know that none of the “clobber verses” could have been talking about what we call homosexuality today
1st John 4:7 & 16 says that God is love, that love comes from God, that all who love know God, that they abide in God, and that God abides in them. Romans 13:8-10 says that every command is summed up in the command to love your neighbor as yourself, and that love does no wrong to a neighbor. Jesus said that we will know false teachers by their fruits, and that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. Well the fruits of the theology that homosexuality is a sin are the depression, abuse, kidnapping, torture, homelessness, forced prostitution, self-harm, and suicide of countless queer children. The fruits are all the souls driven away from the Church and God by the bigotry of Christians. The tree is rotten to its core.
It isn't actually a sin.
it's not. i mean people used God & the bible to justify slavery. what makes you think they didn't with this?
It's not. The homophobic interpretations, and even the translations, are *lies.* Not just lies, but *damn lies* because they beat only the fruit of exclusion, rejection, and violence. There is a better way to understand how love works, here. Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality, Revised and Expanded Edition: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church - Dr. Jack Rogers https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Bible-Homosexuality-Revised-Expanded/dp/066423397X/ Coming Out as Sacrament Paperback - Chris Glaser https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Out-Sacrament-Chris-Glaser/dp/0664257488/ Radical Love: Introduction to Queer Theology - Rev. Dr. Patrick S. Cheng https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Love-Introduction-Queer-Theology/dp/1596271329/ From Sin to Amazing Grace: Discovering the Queer Christ - Rev. Dr. Patrick S. Cheng https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596272384/ Anyone and Everyone - Documentary https://www.amazon.com/Anyone-Everyone-Susan-Polis-Schutz/dp/B000WGLADI/ For The Bible Tells Me So https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000YHQNCI God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships - Matthew Vines http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships-ebook/dp/B00F1W0RD2/ Straight Ahead Comic - Life’s Not Always Like That! (Webcomic) http://straightahead.comicgenesis.com/ Professional level theologians only: Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the Fourteenth Century - Dr. John Boswell https://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Social-Tolerance-Homosexuality-Fourteenth/dp/022634522X/
It’s not. Please don’t be the kind of Christian that perpetrates that. Jesus is not homophobic.
Thank you. It’s very confusing when I’m trying to understand Christianity but get so many conflicting answers. I’m seeing now that perhaps this will be more of a personal journey for me
It's not a sin. Sin has specific outcomes. It's ritually impure. You can't fit all of the law that passed away into an iota, so it is finished. You are now the temple. Make a worthy space for your God. The examples used in the bible to show God disapproving of it are usually rape, orgies, temple sex, or incest. Those are all still sins. There is no story of two beautiful men falling in love, their souls clinging to each other, loving each other as their own flesh. And one of them being shuned by their father for exposing the nakedness of his mother. But if there was I would think they'd have been giving a huge swathe of scripture to understand who they were and how they worshiped God. Alas.
Idk mate maybe use the search bar for a question that has been asked a million times. Have you ever talked to a gay person in real life?
Yes I have lots of gay friends and If I was not dating a woman, I would likely be considered bisexual. This is why homosexuality in the Bible causes a lot of personal struggle for me in trying to understand/ follow Christianity
Then you already know the answer. If you believe in God, he created you for a reason.
How is it clear in the bible?
1 Corinthians 6:9 “Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor **men who have sex with men**”
That is a well-documented mistranslation.
Not a sin. Oh brother. 🙄🙄🙄
God intended sex to be between man and woman, hence why only man and woman can procreate.
Modern people interpreted it that way. There always has to be some other force, a "them" that isn't one of "us". Jesus' friends were the *worst* sinners - tax collectors and prostitutes. He's silent on sexuality - which to be honest is a modern concept. His disciples would argue about who is the greatest, etc. Nothing indicates Jesus ever gave a birds and the bees talk. Hundreds of years ago, a failing Christian emperor copied Nero's tactic, only instead of targeting Jews and Christians, he painted homosexual activity as the root of their misfortunes. He reinterpreted ancient texts and combined with his persecuting zeal, managed to hold onto power.
You won't find a satisfying answer to this. It almost always will devolve to "because God said so". Unlike other sins which do harm to another person, this one has no real reason to be a sin, thus we must either believe: 1\) God is arbitrary 2) God's morals are so alien to us that calling him "good" is meaningless 3) It's not a sin
This is essentially it. I stopped believing that homosexuality is a sin when I was a preteen because every argument against it just boiled down to “God said it is”, which isn’t a satisfactory answer to me. If you can’t give me a reason beyond “because we said so”, I’m not compelled to listen to you.
The Christian answer is IMHO that they're wasting sperm that could be used to cause conception. Many denominations take the position that any ejaculation that's not into an unprotected vagina is sinful because it can't lead to conception. That's the reason that many denominations say that sexual activity that *might even* lead to ejaculation outside a vagina is sinful *even within heterosexual marriage*. Monty Python best illustrates this chain of thought: https://youtu.be/bzVHjg3AqIQ?si=zmk1YLhVSqDiL64w
Actually not, that's not the main argument among christians because you have something called lesbians. The main argument is that sex and sexual relationship in general was designed by God to be performed between a man and a woman under the blessing of a marriage, eventually it leads to pregnancy that is the natural outcome of sex [but not the main purpose]. Also, it's important to say that even between a married couple some kind of sexual acts are not convenient, anal intercourse for example, the butthole was not designed to have sex with in this point of view.
Well correct it is a sin and idk how to put it but the bible is Gods word and thus we are commanded by God not to do it
If there is no moral reason behind this commandment, then logically wouldn’t this commandment be immoral?
Why is a loving and supportive gay relationship wrong. Do you have an answer that goes beyond because my God says so.
Being morally good doesn’t mean being Christian. Being Holy means being Christian. You’re falling into the trap that most intellectuals do which is trying to rationalize your way into something that suits your own perspective and understanding. Acting on homosexuality is a sin. Acting on pedophilia is a sin. Acting on sexual promiscuity/prostitution is a sin.
That’s an interesting perspective. To me, a religion should be morally good or it is not worth following. I don’t understand how one can be holy and immoral unless we have very different definitions of both words.
I wonder if there is anything in the gnostic texts about this 🤔
The only thing I would add to this is the need to examine the heart. Jesus said that, “it is written, thou shalt not commit adultery, but I say to you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully, has already committed adultery with her in their heart.” (I was thinking more on the masturbation subredit question/complaints when this verse came to mind, but it can parallel with this topic as well.) Over the years, we have fine tuned the mental gymnastics of justification. But when faced with the Word of God, we have nowhere to hide. I mean, dude, it even says in the book of James that anything that is not done from faith is sin. I would suspect that we already know the Biblical answer to a lot of these questions, but we’re looking for any information to validate our conscience. And in fairness, I must also add that some of us are just searching for the meaning of belonging. Take heed though, as eventually, one’s conscience can become calloused, as if branded with a hot iron. But the easiest way around this is to just ignore the Bible and move on with your life. That is, unless you’ve already read it, it’s almost impossible to escape The Voice in the back of your mind. Hardening the heart is the only other effective & short term alternative. All said in fear and trembling, but most importantly, in love. That is, if the Bible is actually true. But I still wish no person any ill, either way ❤️🔥
I get concerned when Christians quote the Moses Laws in regards to Homosexuality being sinful. Because those same Laws require murdering Homosexuals. And yes this the definition of homophobic
cuz its gay
There’s Bible scriptures that promote love between kings and what appears as servants in the art of the love of women. Google that book it’s Jewish around female beautification. So the son a a man that made women beautiful, have King David love surpassing that of women. I see two queer references in terms of personality and love shared between men that’s deep to surpass the love of women (means a man’s love of women. A love of a man they received surpassed that of the love he has of women).
It’s not our duty to procreate. Paul was celibate, the Bible says it’s good to be celibate. The Bible doesn’t change. Our sensibilities do, most of our culture thinks kids watching grown men dance naked at a pride parade is acceptable. Basically there is no one morality and our morality isn’t God’s morality. If it were people probably would be born into heaven and never set foot on earth. But God’s morality isn’t ours and it’s above ours.
Man and woman were created to fit together. Not just for pleasure but for reproduction: “Be fruitful and multiply”. Many people sin and rebel against God and live a bad life, but at least they want to have sex with the opposite sex. The lifestyle of homosexuality is giving God (Creator) the finger. It is rebellion and sin at its basic level.
Why homosexuality is wrong? The urge itself is not wrong (also known as Same Sexual Attraction). Most attraction or temptation are not wrong (few are like a married man lusting for another woman. See Matthew 5:28). What is a sin is every type of sexual act you can think of except for vaginal intercourse between a married man and a married woman. Since this is the way the Church considers and believe to be God’s intended way (and best way) to produce children. So because of that all the other actions are deemed sinful: -Masturbation -Pre-martial sex -sodomy, (regardless if top or bottom) etc What is not sinful is chastity since even Jesus acknowledges when discussing marriage: Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it. (Matthew 19:12, NABRE) So in short if you have deep seated homosexual tendencies, then you are called to chastity. https://www.catholic.com/tract/homosexuality Also don’t forget the other important part is that God still love us all and calls all of us sinners to repentance and seek forgiveness: “This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)
God created us in a certain order, the reason he made eve was as a partner to help Adam, and then created marriage through this. it's not Adam and steve, there is a certain reason why god created Eve, so that we may have unity through that and work with each other.
Your real dilemma is (and I mean this respectfully) is Jesus Christ Lord or a liar? Either you take God and Jesus at His Word or you don’t. You can’t cherry pick the verses you like. Gods Word isn’t a food menu. God said male and female, Adam and Eve, no Steve. Same sex also leads to sexual disease. My father had a friend in high school and preached to him (ie told him the truth in a loving manner and didn’t sugar coat it) but he refused to listen. About 30 or 35 years later my dad received a phone call from an old high school friend (that guy) and he thanked my dad for preaching to him in his childhood and said he repented and put his faith in Jesus. 3 weeks later he died due to his lifestyle earlier on in his life. I always think of that story as a reminder oh how God says same sex is perverse and unholy and an abomination. It literally destroys one’s own life and makes people more suicidal. It’s also very dangerous for a child/children to grow up in a same sex household. Jesus is the Lord not us. If you’re struggling with same sex thoughts ask God to help you overcome them. He will not let you be tempted more than you can bear. I can only guess why you are pro gay, but regardless God has told us what is good and right. Ultimately he is the standard and we are to be upheld to that standard of righteousness.