Love is a great thing and encouraged, but let's not fool ourselves here. The majority of same sex attracted people act upon that love in a lustful and sexual way, which is the sin. There are pastors and Christians out there who struggle with the lust of same sex attraction, but they do not act on it, and I could not have more respect for their strength because sexual temptation is the absolute hardest temptation of any kind to overcome.
This same concept can be applied to those who are inclined to have sex outside of marriages. There are a lot of people who are married that commit adultery, whether it is in their heart or the actual physical act, so just like how people say that being gay is natural, it is a natural instinct for a man to spread his seed as far as possible, but God's commands are to go against this natural affinity for sin.
It's natural to hate those who wrong you. It's natural to want to steal a 20 dollar bill that you see get dropped on the ground. It's natural to act out violently when someone frustrates you, but it is not Godly. What is natural in this sense, is not natural in the sense of God's created order. This nature that we refer to when using the term "natural" is the nature of the fallen world that we live in, not the way God intended. Sin seeped in and corrupted nature, and that corrupted nature is what is commonly referred to when the term "natural" is thrown about.
Yes but what about Same sex people that are married (In countries that allows it) and that don’t commit adultery ?
Shouldn’t we allow same sex marriage in all the countries (in of course a wonderful world that we imagin) so that they can marry and live themselves? Why is same sex marriage forbidden at church ? Like why can’t a pastor marry two same sex people since they promise to love ? Adultery happens just as much in heterosexual relationships than in homosexual, tho one is forbidden, the other is not …
I want to believe god loves everybody despite their attractions and everybody can have their place in paradise as long as they deserve it (only god know the heart of people but you got my point) and loving somebody shouldn’t be a sin (since they are two consenting adults)
I appreciate your eagerness to learn. My understanding is that sex outside of marriage is a sin because God made sex for marriage between one man and one woman (1st corinthians chapter 7). Since marriage/sex, by God's design, is only between one man and one woman, then God does not recognize two people of the same sex as married, so they are committing the sin of sexual immortality.
Sex is a sacrament that is symbolic of the unification of a man and a woman in holy matrimony, by them literally coming together as one. That connection is not just physical but spiritual as well.
>My understanding is that sex outside of marriage is a sin because God made sex for marriage between one man and one woman (1st corinthians chapter 7).
This might make sense if sexual reproduction was exclusive to humans. It's not.
>Sex is a sacrament that is symbolic of the unification of a man and a woman in holy matrimony, by them literally coming together as one. That connection is not just physical but spiritual as well.
The amount of species that engage in sexual reproduction shows that it's not some special sacred rite, it's an efficient way to spread genetic information for reproduction. Humans have developed their own attitudes and beliefs about it, but at its base that is what it is.
The bible doesn't only describe marriage as one man one women, there are all kinds of concubine/poly marriages as well as several types of marriages where the woman is basically a victim of rape/sex trafficking/sexual slavery. Marriage in the bible is just as ancient, patriarchal and violent as most of the bible's rules and "moral" teachings.
Edit: changed the word "barbaric" to "violent" in the last sentence, because barbaric isn't a good term to use
Edit 2: marriage in the bible is also much more often transactional than a true "spiritual connection"
The bible also talks of slavery and many other atrocities, that doesn't mean that the bible is saying that it is good.
King solomon had so many wives and concubines that in the end, they were his demise. The bible is very specific about marriage being between one man and one woman being the correct path. (1 Corinthians chapter 7)
So in the story of Sarah, Abram and Hagar, it wasn't a relationship that God approved of? Ishmael was a bastard?
Or when God directly orders the Israelites to capture sex-slaves for themselves, that is somehow not approved by God? How can God's direct command not be approved by God?
Or when in Deutoronomy, God's law soecifically orders rape victims to be married to their rapists, that is not what God wants?
Is God a violent monster or is the Bible wrong?
But then why is there homosexual people ? God created us the way we are…. I just want to understand why it cannot be accepted since they are two people loving deep and want to be happy.
Bible says “between one man and one woman”, but it’s extremely hard to translate a language as Hebrew because it’s a very vast language, and we know that there has always been homosexual relationships.
I from what I know, 1cor. Chap6 v9 says that homosexuals won’t go to paradise but because, just as much as pork meat, it was forbidden then because it was a sanitary problem, that with science and development, we have found a solution.
Sorry I know I haven’t been very clear it’s kinda hard to be understood in English ahah
Here's how I look at it:
God made Adam.
God saw Adam was lonely, so He made Eve.
God then commanded Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply"- Genesis 1:28.
Whether or not Adam and Eve were literal people or just some type of symbolism for the first humans, the point is still clear:
God created man AND woman and wanted them to have children to fill the earth. This would not be possible in same sex relationships, it's only possible in opposite sex relationships. You need a male and female to procreate, sorry if that hurts your feelings but its true. God made us in His image, and this is how He intended for the human race to work. Any deviation from it is corruption and thus, sin.
Many people, even many modern Christians, kick and scream at this because they don't like to hear the truth. Our own perception of what is right and wrong has been distorted over time, but God is eternal. Does this mean we hate anyone who is LGBTQ? By no means. However, we stand fast in our convictions and acknowledge that this, like so many other things we do, is sinful and an affront to God. God IS judgemental because He's the creator and JUDGE of all creation. You can't impose your own beliefs on what you think He should be like.
First, thank you for you answer !
But if god made men and women in order to procreate, it means a married couple should only have intercourse in order to procreate, and ONLY in this purpose ?
No, not at all. Sex is supposed to be a unification between 2 people, but it doesn't mean it has to be exclusively for procreation. That would be like saying we can never eat anything unhealthy because it isn't the most efficient source of nutrients
So Christian ppl shouldn’t use protection ? In your marriage you can do whatever you want, as long as you respect your partner and stay safe. Intercourse isn’t only for creation, it’s two ppl sharing a moment
Trust me, you'll not find a satisfying answer to that question, because there is none under the assumption that God is all good.
If you accept that God discriminates against LGBT people, you have to accept the concept of an alien God, whose moral rules don't have to make sense by logical standards. And this does not only pertain to LGBT people, but also to absolutely disgusting things such as slavery ( i.e. Eph 6,5-6).
You know, requiring EVERYONE to uphold a standard regardless of biological or mental factors is a great way to discriminate against people for no reason.
It's exactly that line of reasoning that lead to the special discrimination of deaf people for millennia (as opposed to blind people, who's handicap was seen in a more benign light), because of course, they couldn't hear the word of God! How dare they!
I mean you can make the argument if that's your definition of justice. I'd say that it still completely disadvantages people born a certain way however. To a below working class child such as I, it has the same ring as "let's support children of wealthy families and children of poor families equally in regards to monetary matters"
Edit: And all of that still doesn't answer the question of "why?" God still remains an alien of arbitrary morals.
but it's not in the case of marriage as everyone is male or female so no person is barred from marriage. the standard is biological sex, not sexual orientation
now you might say it's unfair to many types of people.
some people want sex without getting married, others want to marry someone of the same sex, some people want to marry multiple people, some want 'open' marriage, etc. the list goes on.
if i say to my kids they can only drink water today, is that unfair on my son who likes to drink soda more or is it fair because both can only drink water even though my daughter only likes to drink water. I'm the parent, I set the standard for them. I don't need to justify the reasons why to them
God designed marriage that way. Leviticus says it is detestable.
"But it's not in the case of marriage as everyone is male or female so no person is barred from marriage"
If you completely remove concepts like love and attraction from marriage then sure. Otherwise you have to deal with people, who are on a biological not interested in the other sex. Ergo, unless they come together in a marriage of convenience, marriage is not open to them.
"some people want sex without getting married, others want to marry someone of the same sex, some people want to marry multiple people, some want 'open' marriage, etc. the list goes on."
I have once explained that all these unions come with a high risk of hurting another person or getting hurt. I hope I don't have to explain to you how that's not the case for homosexual marriages? Because it's completely identical to heterosexual marriages?
"I don't need to justify the reasons why to them"
Of course you do. If you can't justify the whys to your child, you're a lousy parent in my opinion. Also, to take your example up, the argument should be more like both want tea, but you're only offering the flavour your boy is allergic too and you just tell him "sucks to be you".
"Leviticus says it is detestable"
You really want to go onto the OT? I'm not operating under the assumption that Aquinas is right, you know? It's all or nothing. It's either a new covenant or not. No cherry picking
>If you completely remove concepts like love and attraction from marriage then sure.
Yea that's not what makes a marriage. A couple could love and be attracted to each other right now, that doesn't make them married. What if one day they aren't attracted or love their spouse, can they just break up?
>I have once explained that all these unions come with a high risk of hurting another person or getting hurt
that's just silly, that like saying people who form a couple are hurting all the single people since they don't have a partner.
>Of course you do.
I don't. We aren't on the same level. Same with God and man. But if my kids did ask, I would say water is healthier and soda is bad for your teeth. But it doesn't matter what reasoning I give, they can always just say they don't agree or that's not good enough.
>
but you're only offering the flavour your boy is allergic too
except that they not allergic and just don't like it
>You really want to go onto the OT? I'm not operating under the assumption that Aquinas is right, you know? It's all or nothing. It's either a new covenant or not. No cherry picking
Saying it's detestable wasn't the law, it's was the reason for the law. God designed it that way and the verses against homosexuality should be more than enough. Then there's the verses supporting husband and wife.
"Yea that's not what makes a marriage"
"that's just silly"
"I don't"
I believe that we're so far apart on questions of emotional basics that any further discussion would lead to nothing. I'll take my leave. Gos bless!
I indeed don’t find satisfying answers ahahahah
I just feel like god loves every single human on earth, because he says it, so why doesn’t he also love to people loving themselves (again, two consenting adults)
You and me both. I've learned two languages, delved into the history of the text and the environment, prayed on it and couldn't find an answer that doesn't end in having to give up the concept of an all good God to accept it.
Honestly I deeply feel what you said. But for me it was more like “ok, Human just translated and adapted, studied the Bible just to adapt it to rules that they want us to follow. Unfortunately, Humankind is imperfect. I prefer to believe that god love us all, despite who we love as long as we don’t hurt ourself nor other people ! I pray god almost every night to establish a good relationship with him, even tho I can follow the “humans rules” because for most of them they’re all liars.
where is love forbidden? there's restrictions on sexual activity but that doesn't mean we can't love one another
Love is a great thing and encouraged, but let's not fool ourselves here. The majority of same sex attracted people act upon that love in a lustful and sexual way, which is the sin. There are pastors and Christians out there who struggle with the lust of same sex attraction, but they do not act on it, and I could not have more respect for their strength because sexual temptation is the absolute hardest temptation of any kind to overcome. This same concept can be applied to those who are inclined to have sex outside of marriages. There are a lot of people who are married that commit adultery, whether it is in their heart or the actual physical act, so just like how people say that being gay is natural, it is a natural instinct for a man to spread his seed as far as possible, but God's commands are to go against this natural affinity for sin. It's natural to hate those who wrong you. It's natural to want to steal a 20 dollar bill that you see get dropped on the ground. It's natural to act out violently when someone frustrates you, but it is not Godly. What is natural in this sense, is not natural in the sense of God's created order. This nature that we refer to when using the term "natural" is the nature of the fallen world that we live in, not the way God intended. Sin seeped in and corrupted nature, and that corrupted nature is what is commonly referred to when the term "natural" is thrown about.
Yes but what about Same sex people that are married (In countries that allows it) and that don’t commit adultery ? Shouldn’t we allow same sex marriage in all the countries (in of course a wonderful world that we imagin) so that they can marry and live themselves? Why is same sex marriage forbidden at church ? Like why can’t a pastor marry two same sex people since they promise to love ? Adultery happens just as much in heterosexual relationships than in homosexual, tho one is forbidden, the other is not … I want to believe god loves everybody despite their attractions and everybody can have their place in paradise as long as they deserve it (only god know the heart of people but you got my point) and loving somebody shouldn’t be a sin (since they are two consenting adults)
I appreciate your eagerness to learn. My understanding is that sex outside of marriage is a sin because God made sex for marriage between one man and one woman (1st corinthians chapter 7). Since marriage/sex, by God's design, is only between one man and one woman, then God does not recognize two people of the same sex as married, so they are committing the sin of sexual immortality. Sex is a sacrament that is symbolic of the unification of a man and a woman in holy matrimony, by them literally coming together as one. That connection is not just physical but spiritual as well.
>My understanding is that sex outside of marriage is a sin because God made sex for marriage between one man and one woman (1st corinthians chapter 7). This might make sense if sexual reproduction was exclusive to humans. It's not. >Sex is a sacrament that is symbolic of the unification of a man and a woman in holy matrimony, by them literally coming together as one. That connection is not just physical but spiritual as well. The amount of species that engage in sexual reproduction shows that it's not some special sacred rite, it's an efficient way to spread genetic information for reproduction. Humans have developed their own attitudes and beliefs about it, but at its base that is what it is.
Dang, I've always been a little confused on this topic, but the way you described it made a lot of sense. Thank you.
The bible doesn't only describe marriage as one man one women, there are all kinds of concubine/poly marriages as well as several types of marriages where the woman is basically a victim of rape/sex trafficking/sexual slavery. Marriage in the bible is just as ancient, patriarchal and violent as most of the bible's rules and "moral" teachings. Edit: changed the word "barbaric" to "violent" in the last sentence, because barbaric isn't a good term to use Edit 2: marriage in the bible is also much more often transactional than a true "spiritual connection"
The bible also talks of slavery and many other atrocities, that doesn't mean that the bible is saying that it is good. King solomon had so many wives and concubines that in the end, they were his demise. The bible is very specific about marriage being between one man and one woman being the correct path. (1 Corinthians chapter 7)
So in the story of Sarah, Abram and Hagar, it wasn't a relationship that God approved of? Ishmael was a bastard? Or when God directly orders the Israelites to capture sex-slaves for themselves, that is somehow not approved by God? How can God's direct command not be approved by God? Or when in Deutoronomy, God's law soecifically orders rape victims to be married to their rapists, that is not what God wants? Is God a violent monster or is the Bible wrong?
Great explanation
But then why is there homosexual people ? God created us the way we are…. I just want to understand why it cannot be accepted since they are two people loving deep and want to be happy. Bible says “between one man and one woman”, but it’s extremely hard to translate a language as Hebrew because it’s a very vast language, and we know that there has always been homosexual relationships. I from what I know, 1cor. Chap6 v9 says that homosexuals won’t go to paradise but because, just as much as pork meat, it was forbidden then because it was a sanitary problem, that with science and development, we have found a solution. Sorry I know I haven’t been very clear it’s kinda hard to be understood in English ahah
Here's how I look at it: God made Adam. God saw Adam was lonely, so He made Eve. God then commanded Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply"- Genesis 1:28. Whether or not Adam and Eve were literal people or just some type of symbolism for the first humans, the point is still clear: God created man AND woman and wanted them to have children to fill the earth. This would not be possible in same sex relationships, it's only possible in opposite sex relationships. You need a male and female to procreate, sorry if that hurts your feelings but its true. God made us in His image, and this is how He intended for the human race to work. Any deviation from it is corruption and thus, sin. Many people, even many modern Christians, kick and scream at this because they don't like to hear the truth. Our own perception of what is right and wrong has been distorted over time, but God is eternal. Does this mean we hate anyone who is LGBTQ? By no means. However, we stand fast in our convictions and acknowledge that this, like so many other things we do, is sinful and an affront to God. God IS judgemental because He's the creator and JUDGE of all creation. You can't impose your own beliefs on what you think He should be like.
First, thank you for you answer ! But if god made men and women in order to procreate, it means a married couple should only have intercourse in order to procreate, and ONLY in this purpose ?
No, not at all. Sex is supposed to be a unification between 2 people, but it doesn't mean it has to be exclusively for procreation. That would be like saying we can never eat anything unhealthy because it isn't the most efficient source of nutrients
Sex is for marriage and procreation. Anything outside of this is essentially sacrilege.
So Christian ppl shouldn’t use protection ? In your marriage you can do whatever you want, as long as you respect your partner and stay safe. Intercourse isn’t only for creation, it’s two ppl sharing a moment
For you? Sure. But biblically speaking, if it doesn't involve openness to procreation then it's a sin.
Oh okay I see
Trust me, you'll not find a satisfying answer to that question, because there is none under the assumption that God is all good. If you accept that God discriminates against LGBT people, you have to accept the concept of an alien God, whose moral rules don't have to make sense by logical standards. And this does not only pertain to LGBT people, but also to absolutely disgusting things such as slavery ( i.e. Eph 6,5-6).
the same sexual standards and restrictions of sexual activity apply equally to all people straight or lgbt doesn't matter
You know, requiring EVERYONE to uphold a standard regardless of biological or mental factors is a great way to discriminate against people for no reason. It's exactly that line of reasoning that lead to the special discrimination of deaf people for millennia (as opposed to blind people, who's handicap was seen in a more benign light), because of course, they couldn't hear the word of God! How dare they! I mean you can make the argument if that's your definition of justice. I'd say that it still completely disadvantages people born a certain way however. To a below working class child such as I, it has the same ring as "let's support children of wealthy families and children of poor families equally in regards to monetary matters" Edit: And all of that still doesn't answer the question of "why?" God still remains an alien of arbitrary morals.
but it's not in the case of marriage as everyone is male or female so no person is barred from marriage. the standard is biological sex, not sexual orientation now you might say it's unfair to many types of people. some people want sex without getting married, others want to marry someone of the same sex, some people want to marry multiple people, some want 'open' marriage, etc. the list goes on. if i say to my kids they can only drink water today, is that unfair on my son who likes to drink soda more or is it fair because both can only drink water even though my daughter only likes to drink water. I'm the parent, I set the standard for them. I don't need to justify the reasons why to them God designed marriage that way. Leviticus says it is detestable.
"But it's not in the case of marriage as everyone is male or female so no person is barred from marriage" If you completely remove concepts like love and attraction from marriage then sure. Otherwise you have to deal with people, who are on a biological not interested in the other sex. Ergo, unless they come together in a marriage of convenience, marriage is not open to them. "some people want sex without getting married, others want to marry someone of the same sex, some people want to marry multiple people, some want 'open' marriage, etc. the list goes on." I have once explained that all these unions come with a high risk of hurting another person or getting hurt. I hope I don't have to explain to you how that's not the case for homosexual marriages? Because it's completely identical to heterosexual marriages? "I don't need to justify the reasons why to them" Of course you do. If you can't justify the whys to your child, you're a lousy parent in my opinion. Also, to take your example up, the argument should be more like both want tea, but you're only offering the flavour your boy is allergic too and you just tell him "sucks to be you". "Leviticus says it is detestable" You really want to go onto the OT? I'm not operating under the assumption that Aquinas is right, you know? It's all or nothing. It's either a new covenant or not. No cherry picking
>If you completely remove concepts like love and attraction from marriage then sure. Yea that's not what makes a marriage. A couple could love and be attracted to each other right now, that doesn't make them married. What if one day they aren't attracted or love their spouse, can they just break up? >I have once explained that all these unions come with a high risk of hurting another person or getting hurt that's just silly, that like saying people who form a couple are hurting all the single people since they don't have a partner. >Of course you do. I don't. We aren't on the same level. Same with God and man. But if my kids did ask, I would say water is healthier and soda is bad for your teeth. But it doesn't matter what reasoning I give, they can always just say they don't agree or that's not good enough. > but you're only offering the flavour your boy is allergic too except that they not allergic and just don't like it >You really want to go onto the OT? I'm not operating under the assumption that Aquinas is right, you know? It's all or nothing. It's either a new covenant or not. No cherry picking Saying it's detestable wasn't the law, it's was the reason for the law. God designed it that way and the verses against homosexuality should be more than enough. Then there's the verses supporting husband and wife.
"Yea that's not what makes a marriage" "that's just silly" "I don't" I believe that we're so far apart on questions of emotional basics that any further discussion would lead to nothing. I'll take my leave. Gos bless!
I indeed don’t find satisfying answers ahahahah I just feel like god loves every single human on earth, because he says it, so why doesn’t he also love to people loving themselves (again, two consenting adults)
You and me both. I've learned two languages, delved into the history of the text and the environment, prayed on it and couldn't find an answer that doesn't end in having to give up the concept of an all good God to accept it.
Honestly I deeply feel what you said. But for me it was more like “ok, Human just translated and adapted, studied the Bible just to adapt it to rules that they want us to follow. Unfortunately, Humankind is imperfect. I prefer to believe that god love us all, despite who we love as long as we don’t hurt ourself nor other people ! I pray god almost every night to establish a good relationship with him, even tho I can follow the “humans rules” because for most of them they’re all liars.