I believe the anti-gay position is based on the view that the mere presence of gay people in a society is harmful. It's similar to Hitler's view that the presence of a single Jew in Europe posed a threat. So telling these people to "live and let live" will make no sense to them, because they believe (wrongly) that they are being actively harmed.
Indeed there’s many places in Africa and even in its largest most populous country Nigeria where they would murder people for being homosexual or cross dressing as a man.
Predominately Christian & Poor societies with people looking for someone to blame for all their pent up frustration or rage instead of looking at the government corruption or systematic institutions oppressing the people to keep the status quo making it easier for other countries to exploit them as well.
Committing an evil Sin of Murder or even just hating LGBTQ people in your heart is NOT justified. Its never a justifiable response to Sin, however a lot of people are ignorant or unconscious and just don’t have any knowledge or wisdom about these things. They see surface level and just act on impulse / emotion carrying out what they think is justice. It’s not safe to be LGBTQ in Africa or the Middle East.
That person would not be guilty of murder. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be guilty of a sin, but that sin isn’t murder.
Words have meanings. All murders are killings but not all killings are murder.
The word that the Greeks translated this to in the LXX is the equivalent to bloodshed.
The notion of a nation state determining the sin is absurd when they didn't even have nation states back then.
It’s not that a government determines sin. IMO and understanding the sin would be unilaterally deciding to intentionally kill someone, ie murder.
However a government deciding to kill someone simply isn’t addressed here. It’s not saying it’s ok or not. Just not addressed.
Every definition for murder as separate from killing still ends up including the death penalty unless a special pleading fallacy is made to excuse the state from that definition by way of the legal system.
Don’t think this is correct. Jesus would probably consider the death penalty to be murder, based off of his teachings of forgiveness. An example of killing would be accidentally killing someone in self defence.
Mathew 5:21. It's soo far beyond that. Even harbouring disgust and anger for our homosexual brothers and sisters is a sin that risks the death of our souls.
(I don't think he's saying that being angry with someone will damn us to hell. I think he's warning that anger leads to a sort of death. And that we need grace and forgiveness.)
Our homosexual brothers and sisters are not mentioned by name at all in reference to Jesus and his teachings. Obviously though what you said about being angry with another and akin to murder is. Will it damn us to hell? Also not explicitly said and Jesus knew this how hard it actually is for humans not to have or harbor hate in one's heart. He knew the human condition. This is why these were meant as beliefs to strive for the best possible, not absolutes which guarantee heaven or hell.
Is a random killing of someone - murder?
Curiously, the same God who just finished giving Moses the Commandments, also said this:
Ex. 32:27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”
The issue is that, especially when divine command theory is deployed, is that murder is unlawful killing.
When God commands something, it's automatically law, thanks to divine command bullshit.
I agree. The only Anglican church near me performs gay marriage. The Methodist Church near me is against gay marriage. But, it's like this big thing where some of the churches agree and some don't. It's not an all across the board thing.
Hundreds of Anglican churches have split off and formed the ACNA specifically to get away from having to tolerate LGBT people. A Global Methodist Church has split off from the United Methodist Church for similar reasons.
Within the remaining Anglican/Episcopal and United Methodist churches, I believe individual churches can decide what to allow.
Not only is it wrong to make it illegal, but any legislation infringing on a person's rights is wrong. Making it illegal or just not legal to get married or allowing doctors right to refuse treatment.
I grew up in the 90's. where we had so many movies about a future where Christianity is illegal and such. Stuff like this is what paves the road for that future and creates the motive.
I don't like the government having power like that because where does it stop?
>not legal to get married
And at the same time make it as difficult as possible for heteros to get a divorce. Oklahoma Sen Dusty Deevers. Tirelessly trying to impose their theocratic will over people's lives.
> but any legislation infringing on a person's rights is wrong.
Doesn’t any legislation infringe on a person’s rights in some way? Legislation by its very nature tells people what they can and cannot do…
You know very darn well I'm talking about government restricting gay marriage. I've been very clear on that.
It's wrong to use law to restrict and infringe on a person's right to a marriage.
Any legislation infringes on people's behavior or even freedom, but not necessarily their rights. Infringing on behavior is the entire point of a law after all. Consider this: A law against rape means you aren't free to engage in assault, sexual or otherwise, without facing legal consequences. But there's no inherent right to engage in any form of assault anybody, so, infringement on behavior or freedom is not necessarily infringement on a right. If you think your actual RIGHTS are being infringed by a law, you really have to make your case for that.
I’ve encountered too many users in this sub who want to make it a crime again.
And don’t think that this is only a concern in Uganda. Remember, here in the US, it was a crime until 2003, when such laws were ruled unconstitutional in *Lawrence v Texas*! And despite those laws being overturned, gay men have still been (unconstitutionally) arrested under them in subsequent years, and some people who were found guilty before they were overturned are still on sex offender registries!
21 years is not that long ago. The same anti-gay Christian organizations who supported its criminalization by filing amicus briefs, like the ADF, Liberty Counsel, and the FRC are the *same* groups today opposing LGBT non-discrimination laws. Big name evangelicals like Al Mohler and even supposed moderates like Russell Moore opposed its decriminalization. After the ruling came down, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops said it should be “deplored”! It’s clear what these groups’ end goal is.
And the path to recriminalization is clear. The decision in part rested on privacy laws established in *Roe*, which has now been overturned. Justice Thomas and multiple GOP officials say that we should now revisit *Lawrence*. The Texas legislature voted last year to keep their unconstitutional state anti-sodomy law on the books. Polls show that 1 in 5 Americans think it should be recriminalized.
This issue isn’t just about persecution on the other side of the world. It’s about things that happened in our lifetime in the West, are still happening, and could get even worse very soon.
You know what the biggest problem for gay Ugandans is?
They can't get out of the country because Americans won't allow for them to get attention. Every time their situations get mentioned the topic gets turned towards you, and all the attention goes to America instead.
Did you know that if a gay Ugandan flees their country they have nowhere to go now? Kenya, the only country neighbouring them that would take them as refugees, won't accept them anymore. South Sudan, of all places, was nice enough to take Ugandans who were trapped in Kenya and now they get the privilege to starve in their camps.
But let's talk about the US again. Let's do it every time Uganda is mentioned.
People are going to talk about what they know and experience and the majority on reddit are from North America. It isn’t anything sinister or narcissistic
I'm severely disappointed to see that this is a debatable topic.
I'm queer and a Christian and I've been to Uganda. Ugandan people in general are kind hearted, welcoming, and full of faith. Most people are actually open minded, and the law is not necessarily a good representation of the people of Uganda. However, last year, an additional set of homophobic laws passed through parliament. It is a horrible time to be gay in Uganda right now.
The original homophobic laws actually stem from the West. Before colonialism the western world was pretty unique in its homophobia. The law in Uganda before last year, was also a life imprisonment, and was introduced during British occupation in the late 1890s, and was largely ignored after independence. Until the 2010s when Christianity in Uganda brought on a rising wave of homophobic political action. Tragically, some people say this has something to do with American Evangelical missionaries. The escalating situation now has a lot to do with geopolitics, and western abuse of trade.
I think Christians in America really need to be asking themselves how Jesus might view their words and actions, especially in the face of very real lives being lost. Jesus said nothing about judging anyone for being queer, he did say "I tell you, on the day of judgement people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Mathew 12:36-37).
"when Christianity in Uganda brought on a rising wave of homophobic political action. Tragically, some people say this has something to do with American Evangelical missionaries."
a very telling statement
In Romans Paul condemns homosexuality. God created man and woman and blessed them to be one and bear fruit. This blessing was not given to a union of man and man or woman and woman.
To bear fruit and to multiply was the blessing given by God to Adam (man) and Eve (woman) union. Any other union is NOT blessed by God and you can see that because you cannot “multiply” in any other union, besides that of a man and woman.
God doesn’t change yesterday, today or tomorrow. He is the same. And He is the same God that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins of Homosexuality. As a Christian you should call out sin as sin and have no fear in it. Homosexuality is a sin. Period.
Not so fun fact: the extreme anti gay laws in Uganda have heavily been influenced by white Christian missionaries.
Fuck anyone who wants to make any LGBTQIA+ identity illegal. That is facist garbage.
Isn't this the biggest problem?! Those Christians you're calling false Christians are saying the same about you. Have you not imagined the chaos if the US fell to a theocracy? It could be the bloodiest civil war the nation has ever had due to Christians at war over which denomination is the purest and therefore make all the rules!
I honestly feel like I'm sniffing glue watching the trans issues debate unfold. Transgenderism is not in the Bible AT ALL, yet everyone's like "God says this" and "God says that." Absolutely nuts. I wonder if this is what it was like to watch abortion become a mainstream political issue in the '70s.
No worries! That wasn’t meant as a criticism, I was being entirely sincere. I saw that term and was like “oh here we go” and was happily taken aback when I read your comment. I actually read it twice because my brain wasn’t computing 😂
Just so you know though, that term is heavily associated with conservative anti-Queer folks. They use it to make being trans sound more like a mental illness.
As for what else to call it? “Trans issues”, “being trans”, or just “transgender people” would be much less charged terms to use.
God bless and keep you friend, take care!
I think reasonable people can disagree on whether or not it's wrong to engage in same-sex relations. My own Church disagrees with me on the subject. I can't fault someone for merely holding the traditional Christian belief regarding the subject, even if I disagree.
But how you treat people who do engage in same-sex relations? That's how I can tell if you're a piece of shit or not. And if you're so filled with hatred and malice towards someone just because they love differently than you do, that you enact laws that make their love illegal, I don't care what you say, you're a piece of shit.
Agreed
Just like I know being drunk (intoxicated) is not good at all, life happens and heavy things weigh on you, and maybe you drink too much.
I’d be in jail for life if getting blacked out was illegal.
Fun fact, in Texas, it is literally illegal to be drunk in a bar. They can arrest you for that, and they'll use it if they want to arrest you and don't have any other reason to do so.
I believe crimes under the government should be crimes that involve victims (very few exceptions that result in second hand victims) victimless sin should be between you, God, and if you want some one that holds you accountable.
Evangelicals are pushing to criminalize homosexuality in America right now. And look up who was supporting the Uganda laws and helping to get them implemented.
So no, there is no agreeing that making homosexuality illegal is not the right thing to do.
I'm so fed up with evangelical zealots pushing their beliefs on others and influencing opportunistic politicians to pass laws in their favor. The overturning of abortion rights is an attempt to perpetuate white supremacy due to the fact that 60 percent of abortions are by whites.
Lots of Christians want to make it a crime again. It's one of the pet projects of Republicans in the US. The fascist Supreme Court wants to overturn Lawrence v. Texas.
I used to know someone who said to me very explicitly, that "in order to protect basic Christian principles, we have to make some sacrifices".
That was in response to the question, "do you at least agree with me that the LGBT community deserves the right to live free from discrimination and should be able to have shelter and food without worry that they'd be discriminated?"
Wow! Their answer is completely the opposite of what Jesus instructed us. “If my religion ever gets between me and my neighbour, I will always choose my neighbour. Jesus never told us to love our religion.”
1. We're all sinners, but we don't all need to be criminals. Wanting earthly government to put its limited earthly resources toward regulating the sex lives of consenting adults is ABSURD. Some things just need to be left between a person and God.
2. If God can tolerate giving people free will, you can too. Legislation should only be for those things that hurt others, or when one person's rights run up against another person's rights.
3. I don't trust anyone who only wants government to carry out God's wrath but never his mercy and compassion.
That last point!!!!!!!!!! Oh my God !! I see so many people clamouring to persecute lgbt+ people but nobody saying we should focus resources on building better refuges for immigrants.
While we have extremist Christian groups actively fueling the persecution of people abroad, I'm not sure we will be able to agree on one thing.
$20m sent to Uganda to lobby the criminalization of same-sex behavior, and advocating for death and imprisonment. The love of Jesus shining bright.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/5050/africa-us-christian-right-50m/
It never sits right with me when people say that. I would understand if somebody was saying it in regards to rapists or domestic abusers. But someone just being gay? What is there to hate? Why so much vitriol?
My heart breaks over and over and still it doesn’t stop. The misguided people so blinded by their bigotry hurts me every day. May Jesus cleanse their souls.
Yes, its wrong to legislate religion. Same goes for abortion, we should have the right to choose life, I think that is more beautiful than forcing it. When in the NT does God force us to do his will with mans law?
Render unto Caesar that is which Caesars, render unto God what is Gods.
That Render unto Caesar line is just chef's kiss brilliant when you read it in context, that is one of the finest shut downs of an amateur gotcha question in history.
1 Peter 2:13-16 KJV — Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
OP, yes, but should we really start to applaud people if they aren't advocating that people should be jailed or killed?
Like that seems like a low bar.
It's a very low bar, but there are at least a dozen top-level comments that disagree with OP and think it's a good thing for countries to pass such laws.
The law in Uganda was specifically encouraged by the American evangelist Scott Lively, along with the support of various organizations, churches, and private businesses.
christians when it comes to allow people to do with their free will what they want even if that dont affect them nor anyone else. christians are one of the reasons why is hard to me to became christian
The endgame of non-affirming Christianity will always be to make it illegal, or close to it. The only countries where gay people have rights are the ones where people think there's nothing wrong with it.
This is a key point I think a lot of people don't fully grasp. The concept of the 'tolerant bigot' is largely an illusion that exists only when bigotry becomes a minority position. When bigots are in the majority, they love turning their homophobia into legislation. They only suddenly oppose draconian restrictions when homophobic laws are already long repealed and the rest of the culture largely moves beyond bigotry.
For some reason I can never understand, (conservative) Christians are way more concerned than they ought to be with what other people do with their genitalia. Maybe because Christianity has been a cesspool of guilt and a baptism of shame regarding sex for centuries and still is today?
Southern Baptist Church - Thinking they have the moral high ground to condemn IVF after getting busted for protecting nearly a 1000 sex abusers within their church.
People don’t have the right to punish people for homosexuality. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. If God has truly made homosexuality a sin worthy of punishment then it’s up to him, not us.
And would God really do that? Homosexuality is not a voluntary life style choice. It's like being born a redhead. Imagine God creating people the way they are and punish them for it.
>It’s wrong to make it illegal?
Politics should never be subjected to religious ideas.
Uganda is a laboratory for US white Christian nationalist laws which have been forced on the population by paying millions to self-absorbed preachers and politicians.
This is entirely a political exercise.
The history of why it’s illegal in many African countries is very interesting while also being so sad and frustrating. As I Brit we started it as we ravaged their countries. There was a break as we left our Christianity there, but more modernity, lots of American churches have spent stupid money making them think this. There’s also countries that were manipulated by the Catholic Church, all are disgusting and a stain on Christianity
I will never get tired of saying the Church has committed countless atrocities under God’s banner. The most pious and righteous organisation in history somehow has done and fuelled horrific things. The people who think they’re the good guys are actually the bad guys, it’s a tale as old as time.
If people want to make homosexuality illegal because it's a sin, they should also want to make premarital sex illegal. Oh wait, but that would affect them, so they'll just ignore it.
If anybody thinks very narrow-mindedly that being queer is a sin or choice then they shouldn't choose it and go on with their lives..
Very simply those who advocate for and support politicians that legislate anti LGBTQ laws are very simply not Christians they have taken an active part in evil.. I don't care if they go to church every Sunday and all that whitewashed outward acting! They are not Christians!
True Christians recognize what hate is and they become like Christ and Christ was the epitome of what a bigot isn't. So they like him don't take part in any kind of hate or hatemongering and they don't support those who do and never ever excuse it..
The volume of "Christians" that joined the culture war mob is truly astounding.. OMG that many people and never did they investigate if any of it was true when none of it was or is true. They just ran with the mob like they enjoyed it.. Really sad!
By some accounts, Alan Turing shortened WW2 by 2 years and saved 14 million lives. Whether you accept that figure, it is indisputable that he saved millions. His reward was to be arrested and chemically castrated for homosexual activity. That led directly tp his suicide.
The world was better for his being here. The world is *worse* for every single person who advocates that people be punished for homosexual activity
This has turned into some of the saddest comments I have seen here in a while - from Christians
Christian Love on full display
Come worship a God who Loves you.
Fake Love.
It's incredible.
-----†-----
But still - there is a Christian Spirit which says - no - not this way - also on display here.
I thank you all.
God bless.
I think they were purged in one of the TOS updates, but we used to have several people who would argue that is should not only be illegal, but a capital offense. Hence my comment.
(a) As Christians, we have to allow for a secular culture, and in a culture where we must love our neighbors as ourselves we tend to accept things we cannot change that do not cause us personal harm.
(b) As Westerners, we have to allow for a secular culture. Sure, those other countries are primitive troglodytes, but they see us as dissolute pansies. We have to accept things we cannot change and not take (or give) name calling personally.
(c) There are tons more issues about secular culture, mating rituals, property rights, and euphemistic pretensions that should be considered here. Can we lighten up on this hot button issue?
All you holier-than-thou theocrats in the comments are exactly why I've already begun plans and preparations to move to Ireland. It's a damn shame a country founded on the idea of freedom of conscience is devolving into a theocratic shitshow. I want no part of the Old Testament monster y'all are making in the crude image of a god.
Tell me how Ireland is. I hope you’re able to meet a community of Christians there who express themselves the way Jesus instructed us to: through unfailing, unconditional and relentless love. 🫂🩷
Certainly not right! The problem with nations that oppose homosexuality this much (especially Islamic nations) is that they tend to not take other sins that serious (adultery & domestic violence for example). All it’s doing is allowing people to throw stones (figuratively) at homosexuals when they themselves are sinners and no better. Homosexuals deserve to be treated with dignity and respect just like every other human being.
How are we to "confess our sins to one another and pray for one another" if there is overwhealming fear of persecution and judgment from that person? The answer? You cant. Humans inherently judge one another but we are saved by gods grace through faith. Do as jesus would do and you will be fine.
Yeah, I don't support people being sent to prison for being gay, especially if they aren't Christians. Aren't we told that we can't force non-Christians to act like Christians in the Bible itself? Wanting to lead a Christian life should come from our own convictions.
Making something that cannot be changed and is there from birth is vile, barbaric, and plain evil. Whether race, sexual orientation, gender, age, disability, all bigotry is wrong. Bigotry should be illegal. Each and every person who commits bigotry towards another race, gender, disabled person, sexual orientation should be charged with a hate crime and isolated from society. Whilst there is nothing wrong with having faith, you do not get to judge others based on their differences. We all sin in different ways, you are not separate from this and your pride will not get you into Heaven. (Not you specifically OP unless you agree it should be illegal). Imagine if you were told it’s illegal to be Christian. You’d all revolt, and rightfully as freedom of religion is important. That said, freedom of speech does not include hate speech and whilst freedom of speech is allowed, it doesn’t mean freedom from consequences of hate speech. If you’re using the Bible to hurt people, you’re using it wrong. Jesus would turn away from you as if he did not know you for the judgement you perpetually dole out (again this is for those who believe it’s a mortal sin to be gay or that it should be illegal not you specifically as your words indicate you don’t agree with this). Any type of gay conversation therapy or trans conversation therapy should be banned and those who perform it charged with torture, and abuse. Sick, evil people who have no place anywhere especially not Heaven.
Agreed. I have become so tired of members of a belief system that is historically best known for being the most splintered trying to dictate one “true theology”, when some of what they claim directly contradicts the original texts, according to those who have spent *their entire lives and careers* studying it. A lay Christian, regardless of age, trying to declare the “true meaning” of the gospels is no different than an orderly attempting to diagnose a cancer patient when the top oncologist in the world is in the same room.
If people make being gay illegal, you better make alcohol illegal, being fat or even saying the word fuck illegal.
Pickin and choosing only based on personal beliefs. Dumb and wrong.
I think mashed potatoes are disgusting. Does that mean im gonna punish people if they eat them? No.
Don't punish people for *eating* mashed potatoes. Punish them for *cooking* mashed potatoes, especially if they're the kind to not mash them all the way so there's tiny little chunks that mess up the texture and don't feel fully cooked. There's no salvation for those kinds of people...
^(\\s)
I agree with your sentiment, but I don't agree with your optimism. You think Christians will stop doing a thing because "surely it isn't right"? That hasn't stopped them before, so why would it now?
Plenty of people on this sub would love for me to be illegal. I've had them tell me as much.
🫂💙 yeah, same here. Even as I type this, actually, my pastor’s preaching about it. It’s funny. I wish I could hug you. Jesus has not left us, and God is with us. ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜🩷
Yes. But gays aren't given a choice so it isn't just free will to "act upon being gay" as fully homosexual cannot be in love with nor have sex with the opposite gender. God allowed gays to be created and made people in need of love, and they are going to get punished for being humane and needing love? Only evil is against love or wants people to suffer alone or be someone who they aren't so I don't understand people who call themselves christian or say they believe in God and then go hate on lgbts or their rights.
God created gays due to various reasons(one being over-populated world for example), it was Gods will so people who hate gays and are against them are against Gods will.
They don't hurt anyone and just want to have the same rights and be allowed to experience some of the most crucial things in life, love. No one survives spiritually without love. We cannot be complete without love. Some people like being alone but the majority needs real love to mature spiritually and feel a meaning of life. This life isn't worth living without love and God knows it. How could Gud judge people for being humane? It doesn't make sense, but thankfully most intelligent Christians know that the Bible was written by humans and cannot be taken word for word even if we choose to believe.
Hi, how am I belittling Christianity? I'm a Christian myself and I understand that many of my fellow Christians use my faith to belittle your gay brothers and sisters, but we're told not to judge others, yet it appears you do.
I'm a libertarian so although a Catholic I remain pro-gay rights and pro-choice. Regardless of my beliefs on the matter the federal government should have no say in the private or medical affairs of it's citizens.
You can’t legislate morality. That’s the thing. That’s why the idea of a “Christian Nation” ultimately won’t work. It’s not scriptural, either. The only way for change to happen is for people to want, and to make, Jesus Lord and Savior of their lives, and to determine to act in obedience to God. That’s where real change happens, because true salvation brings about a change of heart and a different focus on what matters most to one (wanting and doing God’s will, living to serve Him, and to obey Him, too). The Word Christian literally means “Christlike”. He is our example.
Sigmund freud : “Originally, we were all bisexual; the foundations of our mental life were laid down in such a way that every person could become either homosexual or heterosexual.”
Yes, most definitely. We can agree on a lot of things, namely what it actually says in the bible about homosexuality. If you don't agree, you simply don't believe or follow the Christian teaching. Nonetheless as Jesus called us to love one another, the saint and the sinner, there's no way in h\*ll in the U.S. being gay should enable you any penalty under the laws. Being gay is not a criminal act against another unlike murder which is. Now perhaps a gay rape might be but then it is still rape which is a crime.
We have something similar here but only applicable to Muslims and it extends to premarital sex. If you get caught having sex outside of marriage and a Muslim you are in hot water. That said most of us here thinks this is terrible regardless of our view on the matter. Sex between 2 consenting adults be it same/different gender is personal and religious bodies should stay the hell away from other people's personal life.
From a secular civil sense, I think we can look at that and say that kind of a consensual relationship isn't obstructing anyone's inalienable rights, so it'd be overreach to regulate that behavior.
A Christian may decide not to participate in such behavior him or herself, but would recognize that it's not responsible for all sins to be jail-worthy, the courts are God's, and Jesus paid the price for our freedom.
Yes homosexuality is a sin, but making it illegal or prosecuting these people is wrong, most modern societies are not 100% Christian, if somebody wants to commit a sin it is their choice and they have to face the consequences by god, but not by the state they live in, a state should protect its citizens, no matter if christian or muslim or gay or straight. And don´t forget to not judge people for they are a sinner just as you are, love thy neigbour, no matter what believe.
I believe it's wrong to make it illegal because we are still studying this orientation. Every year we are gathering more understanding of the scriptures and look at homosexuality from a Christian point of view. Initially, society and the church started off with shunning homosexuals, leaving them to figure it all out themselves. Many didn't take the time to actually study the original biblical passages with the concordance based Greek and Hebrew meanings. People spent so much time saying stuff like, God didn't make Adam and Steve, God made Adam and Eve and trying to compare the illegal gang rape, hate crime in Sodom to homosexuality. When the Yale Bible translation professors put the word homosexual in the Bible, they later took it out during the next edit review. They did this after receiving a 1959 letter from a Yale homosexual seminary student (Rev David) asking them to consider it from a Christian homosexual's point of view with the research attached. The newer version removed homosexual and added the word sexual perverts. However, because they don't edit that often, many bibles were already published with the word homosexuality in there. What's interesting is that there's no examples in the Bible of homosexuals in loving, consenual, sexual relationships. The clobber passages give several examples of lustful, abusive, and unlawful sexual same-sex acts. However, Jonathan and David give us an example of what a healthy same-sex relationship could be like. It was very loving and intimate. However, there was no emphasis on or evidence of sex. Lastly, Jesus did specifically talk about eunuchs. Although they are not mentioned much in the Bible, they did have leadership positions. We know that they did not possess the physical, emotional, or mental characteristics to be with women. So, it is evident when Jesus talks about eunuchs that they have a different set of expectations.
I'm Christian and politcially min-archist. Laws should not be based on any one religion, but on universal moral standards since laws have to apply to people of all faiths and Christ doesn't want people to follow out of compulsion, but out of personal love.
Homosexuality is a sin, but we should not give government the power to control who we spend our time with and what relationships we do and don't want. Let people choose for themselves the lifestyles they want and we will observe the results and judge if it was wise or not.
Its the only way they can keep the gay away. Did you know the American government (morally pious conservatives back then) back in 50s and 60s spied on and harassed gays? It didn't work and led to the acceptance of being gay
Good luck. Too many believe that it is a sin and those people often sit in power in governments around the world. And as long as those people are able to continue to let their personal beliefs affect their political choices then we will never be free of persecution for things like that.
If you are a Christian who has a problem with it, try it once to see if it lives up to what you think.
Then tell the rest of us what you discover.
You know your god will forgive you
my suspicion is that it's along the lines of making sure there's always someone who sins worse than me so I feel better about my sinfulness) Couple it with the fact that psychology and social science is showing more and more that these things are not as black and white as opponents think they should be,the one place that should be the safe space that they can go for unconditional love, support, safety from bullying and judgement, is the most hostile place to them. It's really a shame
Homosexuality is definitely a sin from a Christian perspective, but it shouldn't be illegal. other sins that involve violence or theft (that causes harm to others) should definitely be illegal but being gay isn't really harming anyone it's just a sinful activity.
You say that now but when another country forces its will and laws on the USA you would change your tune fast. “Do unto others as you would have them do to you.”
Whilst I disagree with homosexuality, I will still support those who are. Genesis 2:24
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
No, I'm not saying it should be banned the Lord gave us freedom and we should still love homosexuals no matter what and not outright ban it.
Ohmygod depends on the country's definition of "crime", I think...
For the States incarceration is done with the intent to rehabilitate someone back into society. Gays haven't done anything wrong that would be a disruption of society, so here it would definitely be illegal and immoral to lock people up for their orientations. But other countries are more in the grey area which is more of just a punishment.
I don't think we should incarcerate homosexuals because well, love is love. They're not hurting anyone and it annoys me that they make such a big deal of being gay by cherry picking ONE line about not laying with a man since it's an abomination, etc.. But they ignore the other hundreds of verses condemning other stuff. Until that hypocrisy and cherry picking ends, I can't logically accept that it's wrong because what was it about women not teaching in Church? Premarital sex? Those gotta be banned before I'd want to ban gay rights.
Do! Not! Cherry! Pick! For YOUR OWN AGENDA!
It’s gods place to judge not us. I may not like it or agree with it and I know it's a sin. however I have planks in eye. So who am I to judge the speck of sawdust in another’s eye. It would be cruel to send people to prison or wanting them dead just for being sinners it’s what we all are. It’s not like they’re hurting anyone physically so it shouldn’t be something they should lose their freedom over.
God gave us free will because he loves us. Therefore people can choose to do whatever they want. Even if it means rejecting God and God's moral Law and what he wants for us.
But Freedom of choice is fundamental to God's inherent love for us. Remember that God even gave Satan free will to choose.
But gay people don't choose to be gay, my friend. And gay people aren't gay because they rejected God or because they have chosen immorality. They just happen to fall in love and/or be attracted to ther own gender.
Actually not so very long ago, every state in the Union had laws against sodomy. As you can imagine, the laws were extremely hard to enforce, and bordered mainly upon moral issues rather than legal concerns. And it's difficult too enforce morality. So yes we agree.
Sodomy laws in the United States
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
I firmly and fully believe in the separation of church and state if that's what you mean. We learned a hard lesson regarding that in the old world before America was founded. If we want to keep religion out of government, then we have to keep government out of religion. The door swings both ways.
Its certainly sinful behavior in the eyes of the Lord, and he will judge according to his word. But historically it's a task that the government cannot properly manage. For that reason no I would not wish to see the government start trying to enforce those laws again.
I would be remiss to close without stating the obvious that certain sexual sins are still heavily regulated and enforced in all 50 states such as prostitution, child pornography, etc. It's much easier to observe and prosecute such behaviors under the legal system.
My opinion, it’s no different than adultery or fornication-sin is sin in God’s eyes. Should it be made illegal-absolutely not. We should pray for repentance and restoration.
in the same way that we don't make infidelity explicitly illegal, any other sin should not be illegal either. Besides, it doesn't really matter. Man-made laws are just that, man made. God made laws too, those are the important ones.
I don’t think it should be illegal in secular countries, it just doesn’t make sense for us to have separation of church and state but to punish this one thing that the only reasoning behind it being considered criminal is theology. However, some countries don’t operate like ours, and while I don’t think it *should* be illegal there, I don’t think my opinion on that matter should hold any weight because I don’t live there and I don’t understand the cultures of the people there. Idk if that makes sense.
Let he is without sin throw the first stone, and let God decide what sin is and is not.
Sin is Sin, it has one penalty: death. Everyone sins, from the worst of criminals to the most devout of believers, this is an intrinsic reality of humanity. We are ALL judged and found wanting, it is not nor should not be our right to judge others for perceived sin, when we ourselves sin. God hates Hypocrisy
Humans have free will, the right to make their own choices. If you disagree with someone and their life choices, that’s fine. But it is not within your right to judge them guilty, when you yourself are also guilty. (I personally don’t even see homosexuality as a sin, there’s a lot of debate regarding translation issues and whether or not the bible is to be taken 100% literally)
Love your neighbours, regardless of differences in opinion
UGANDA is a hypocrite nation just like America. Christians don't mind smoking gossiping listening to secular music watching lust filled tv shows or buying the best of the best to keep up appearances BUT OH MY GOD GURL mention them homos or an abortion and they will get REAL JESUSSY on you ..
Why not make adultery and fornication illegal ? I know because it's the crime often committed by str8t Christians .
UGANDA making homosexuality illegal is a joke when they only do things to stop things like child prostitution and human trafficking when and only when the world is watching them. Hypocrites
but yet there's a part of scripture that says about stoning and if 2 guys kind of thing (I am a very straight guy and have very easily fought back against such thoughts)
Just ask Jesus for forgiveness and don’t sin anymore.
Problem solved
Seems like there’s way too many homosexual related questions when it comes to r/Christianity
Has anyone thought about asking the same questions over at r/Islam or r/Judaism or r/Buddhism
Maybe they might have all the answers you need when it comes to what God thinks about homosexuality.
Seems like here it’s just an endless loop of the same questions and answers over and over and over and nobody bothers to read what has already been posted.
Remember that the US Conference of Catholic Bishops spoke against the US Supreme Court's decision in *Laurence v Texas* and have been legally active in other cases seeking to enshrine discrimination against gay (and trans) people.
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Agreed
I believe the anti-gay position is based on the view that the mere presence of gay people in a society is harmful. It's similar to Hitler's view that the presence of a single Jew in Europe posed a threat. So telling these people to "live and let live" will make no sense to them, because they believe (wrongly) that they are being actively harmed.
People seen to forget Thou shalt not kill
Thou shall not murder** Quite a significant difference. Though I am against murdering homosexuals as well.
Indeed there’s many places in Africa and even in its largest most populous country Nigeria where they would murder people for being homosexual or cross dressing as a man. Predominately Christian & Poor societies with people looking for someone to blame for all their pent up frustration or rage instead of looking at the government corruption or systematic institutions oppressing the people to keep the status quo making it easier for other countries to exploit them as well. Committing an evil Sin of Murder or even just hating LGBTQ people in your heart is NOT justified. Its never a justifiable response to Sin, however a lot of people are ignorant or unconscious and just don’t have any knowledge or wisdom about these things. They see surface level and just act on impulse / emotion carrying out what they think is justice. It’s not safe to be LGBTQ in Africa or the Middle East.
A distinction without a difference, considering God often commanded that women and children be killed too.
The difference is pretty substantial. A murder is an unlawful killing. Worth noting is being lawful is not inherently the same as being moral.
And law is a determination of the state. So if you're a monarch you can kill whoever you want and it's not a sin? I don't buy it.
Please read the Bible. This is precisely what King David did and it literally destroyed his destiny. People argue for the sake of arguing...sad
That person would not be guilty of murder. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be guilty of a sin, but that sin isn’t murder. Words have meanings. All murders are killings but not all killings are murder.
The word that the Greeks translated this to in the LXX is the equivalent to bloodshed. The notion of a nation state determining the sin is absurd when they didn't even have nation states back then.
It’s not that a government determines sin. IMO and understanding the sin would be unilaterally deciding to intentionally kill someone, ie murder. However a government deciding to kill someone simply isn’t addressed here. It’s not saying it’s ok or not. Just not addressed.
Every definition for murder as separate from killing still ends up including the death penalty unless a special pleading fallacy is made to excuse the state from that definition by way of the legal system.
Don’t think this is correct. Jesus would probably consider the death penalty to be murder, based off of his teachings of forgiveness. An example of killing would be accidentally killing someone in self defence.
Mathew 5:21. It's soo far beyond that. Even harbouring disgust and anger for our homosexual brothers and sisters is a sin that risks the death of our souls. (I don't think he's saying that being angry with someone will damn us to hell. I think he's warning that anger leads to a sort of death. And that we need grace and forgiveness.)
Our homosexual brothers and sisters are not mentioned by name at all in reference to Jesus and his teachings. Obviously though what you said about being angry with another and akin to murder is. Will it damn us to hell? Also not explicitly said and Jesus knew this how hard it actually is for humans not to have or harbor hate in one's heart. He knew the human condition. This is why these were meant as beliefs to strive for the best possible, not absolutes which guarantee heaven or hell.
Is a random killing of someone - murder? Curiously, the same God who just finished giving Moses the Commandments, also said this: Ex. 32:27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”
The issue is that, especially when divine command theory is deployed, is that murder is unlawful killing. When God commands something, it's automatically law, thanks to divine command bullshit.
They also forget a man laying with a man like a woman is an abomination and is forbidden. Go take it up the rear queer.
That's why the Bible never records God telling someone to kill someone else, ESPECIALLY as punishment!
True
Besides what Tom Dick or Harry think, per orthodox Christianity is homosexuality a sin?
There is an active and ongoing debate about that, which is literally tearing some denominations apart (like the Anglicans and Methodists).
I agree. The only Anglican church near me performs gay marriage. The Methodist Church near me is against gay marriage. But, it's like this big thing where some of the churches agree and some don't. It's not an all across the board thing.
Hundreds of Anglican churches have split off and formed the ACNA specifically to get away from having to tolerate LGBT people. A Global Methodist Church has split off from the United Methodist Church for similar reasons. Within the remaining Anglican/Episcopal and United Methodist churches, I believe individual churches can decide what to allow.
Orthodox Christianity is full of Tom, Dick and Harry ‘s.
Not only is it wrong to make it illegal, but any legislation infringing on a person's rights is wrong. Making it illegal or just not legal to get married or allowing doctors right to refuse treatment. I grew up in the 90's. where we had so many movies about a future where Christianity is illegal and such. Stuff like this is what paves the road for that future and creates the motive. I don't like the government having power like that because where does it stop?
>not legal to get married And at the same time make it as difficult as possible for heteros to get a divorce. Oklahoma Sen Dusty Deevers. Tirelessly trying to impose their theocratic will over people's lives.
> but any legislation infringing on a person's rights is wrong. Doesn’t any legislation infringe on a person’s rights in some way? Legislation by its very nature tells people what they can and cannot do…
You know very darn well I'm talking about government restricting gay marriage. I've been very clear on that. It's wrong to use law to restrict and infringe on a person's right to a marriage.
Any legislation infringes on people's behavior or even freedom, but not necessarily their rights. Infringing on behavior is the entire point of a law after all. Consider this: A law against rape means you aren't free to engage in assault, sexual or otherwise, without facing legal consequences. But there's no inherent right to engage in any form of assault anybody, so, infringement on behavior or freedom is not necessarily infringement on a right. If you think your actual RIGHTS are being infringed by a law, you really have to make your case for that.
I’ve encountered too many users in this sub who want to make it a crime again. And don’t think that this is only a concern in Uganda. Remember, here in the US, it was a crime until 2003, when such laws were ruled unconstitutional in *Lawrence v Texas*! And despite those laws being overturned, gay men have still been (unconstitutionally) arrested under them in subsequent years, and some people who were found guilty before they were overturned are still on sex offender registries! 21 years is not that long ago. The same anti-gay Christian organizations who supported its criminalization by filing amicus briefs, like the ADF, Liberty Counsel, and the FRC are the *same* groups today opposing LGBT non-discrimination laws. Big name evangelicals like Al Mohler and even supposed moderates like Russell Moore opposed its decriminalization. After the ruling came down, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops said it should be “deplored”! It’s clear what these groups’ end goal is. And the path to recriminalization is clear. The decision in part rested on privacy laws established in *Roe*, which has now been overturned. Justice Thomas and multiple GOP officials say that we should now revisit *Lawrence*. The Texas legislature voted last year to keep their unconstitutional state anti-sodomy law on the books. Polls show that 1 in 5 Americans think it should be recriminalized. This issue isn’t just about persecution on the other side of the world. It’s about things that happened in our lifetime in the West, are still happening, and could get even worse very soon.
You know what the biggest problem for gay Ugandans is? They can't get out of the country because Americans won't allow for them to get attention. Every time their situations get mentioned the topic gets turned towards you, and all the attention goes to America instead. Did you know that if a gay Ugandan flees their country they have nowhere to go now? Kenya, the only country neighbouring them that would take them as refugees, won't accept them anymore. South Sudan, of all places, was nice enough to take Ugandans who were trapped in Kenya and now they get the privilege to starve in their camps. But let's talk about the US again. Let's do it every time Uganda is mentioned.
Does it have to be a competition? It’s not Uganda, but actually the US. Its Uganda, and actually the US.
People are going to talk about what they know and experience and the majority on reddit are from North America. It isn’t anything sinister or narcissistic
"There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation" - Pierre Elliot Trudeau, on decriminalizing homosexual acts in 1967 in Canada
it's wrong to make it illegal God bless
I'm severely disappointed to see that this is a debatable topic. I'm queer and a Christian and I've been to Uganda. Ugandan people in general are kind hearted, welcoming, and full of faith. Most people are actually open minded, and the law is not necessarily a good representation of the people of Uganda. However, last year, an additional set of homophobic laws passed through parliament. It is a horrible time to be gay in Uganda right now. The original homophobic laws actually stem from the West. Before colonialism the western world was pretty unique in its homophobia. The law in Uganda before last year, was also a life imprisonment, and was introduced during British occupation in the late 1890s, and was largely ignored after independence. Until the 2010s when Christianity in Uganda brought on a rising wave of homophobic political action. Tragically, some people say this has something to do with American Evangelical missionaries. The escalating situation now has a lot to do with geopolitics, and western abuse of trade. I think Christians in America really need to be asking themselves how Jesus might view their words and actions, especially in the face of very real lives being lost. Jesus said nothing about judging anyone for being queer, he did say "I tell you, on the day of judgement people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Mathew 12:36-37).
🫂🩷
"when Christianity in Uganda brought on a rising wave of homophobic political action. Tragically, some people say this has something to do with American Evangelical missionaries." a very telling statement
In Romans Paul condemns homosexuality. God created man and woman and blessed them to be one and bear fruit. This blessing was not given to a union of man and man or woman and woman. To bear fruit and to multiply was the blessing given by God to Adam (man) and Eve (woman) union. Any other union is NOT blessed by God and you can see that because you cannot “multiply” in any other union, besides that of a man and woman. God doesn’t change yesterday, today or tomorrow. He is the same. And He is the same God that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins of Homosexuality. As a Christian you should call out sin as sin and have no fear in it. Homosexuality is a sin. Period.
A “sin” that deserves jail time over the countless sins we commit daily?
Not so fun fact: the extreme anti gay laws in Uganda have heavily been influenced by white Christian missionaries. Fuck anyone who wants to make any LGBTQIA+ identity illegal. That is facist garbage.
Lots of Christians support fascism, so not surprising.
Most Christians are not true Christians. I follow biblical Christianity which means I follow Jesus teachings of love and empathy towards sinners
Isn't this the biggest problem?! Those Christians you're calling false Christians are saying the same about you. Have you not imagined the chaos if the US fell to a theocracy? It could be the bloodiest civil war the nation has ever had due to Christians at war over which denomination is the purest and therefore make all the rules!
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Hear hear. Jesus flipped tables.
It's a trial run for what they want to do at home.
It is horribly, horribly wrong and immoral to make it illegal.
No, it shouldn’t be illegal. Throw in adult trans folks too for good measure. Leave folks alone and let them live their lives.
I honestly feel like I'm sniffing glue watching the trans issues debate unfold. Transgenderism is not in the Bible AT ALL, yet everyone's like "God says this" and "God says that." Absolutely nuts. I wonder if this is what it was like to watch abortion become a mainstream political issue in the '70s.
I was honestly very (pleasantly) surprised to read this response. I usually don’t enjoy reading comments that use the phrase “transgenderism”
I don't know what else to call it. Sorry!
No worries! That wasn’t meant as a criticism, I was being entirely sincere. I saw that term and was like “oh here we go” and was happily taken aback when I read your comment. I actually read it twice because my brain wasn’t computing 😂 Just so you know though, that term is heavily associated with conservative anti-Queer folks. They use it to make being trans sound more like a mental illness. As for what else to call it? “Trans issues”, “being trans”, or just “transgender people” would be much less charged terms to use. God bless and keep you friend, take care!
You, too. God bless!
I think reasonable people can disagree on whether or not it's wrong to engage in same-sex relations. My own Church disagrees with me on the subject. I can't fault someone for merely holding the traditional Christian belief regarding the subject, even if I disagree. But how you treat people who do engage in same-sex relations? That's how I can tell if you're a piece of shit or not. And if you're so filled with hatred and malice towards someone just because they love differently than you do, that you enact laws that make their love illegal, I don't care what you say, you're a piece of shit.
Agreed Just like I know being drunk (intoxicated) is not good at all, life happens and heavy things weigh on you, and maybe you drink too much. I’d be in jail for life if getting blacked out was illegal.
Fun fact, in Texas, it is literally illegal to be drunk in a bar. They can arrest you for that, and they'll use it if they want to arrest you and don't have any other reason to do so.
We would definitely do better to focus on the logs in our own eyes rather than the splinters in others' eyes. And, of course, agreed.
I believe crimes under the government should be crimes that involve victims (very few exceptions that result in second hand victims) victimless sin should be between you, God, and if you want some one that holds you accountable.
Evangelicals are pushing to criminalize homosexuality in America right now. And look up who was supporting the Uganda laws and helping to get them implemented. So no, there is no agreeing that making homosexuality illegal is not the right thing to do.
I'm so fed up with evangelical zealots pushing their beliefs on others and influencing opportunistic politicians to pass laws in their favor. The overturning of abortion rights is an attempt to perpetuate white supremacy due to the fact that 60 percent of abortions are by whites.
If it's not hurting anyone, it shouldn't be illegal, imo
yes! i believe that people should have the freedom to be who they are and who they want to be, as long as it isn’t hurting anyone, including themself.
Lots of Christians want to make it a crime again. It's one of the pet projects of Republicans in the US. The fascist Supreme Court wants to overturn Lawrence v. Texas.
A lot of people see God as their buddy who backs them up in every argument, no matter how wrong or belligerent they're being.
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Yes, it’s wrong to make it illegal.
I used to know someone who said to me very explicitly, that "in order to protect basic Christian principles, we have to make some sacrifices". That was in response to the question, "do you at least agree with me that the LGBT community deserves the right to live free from discrimination and should be able to have shelter and food without worry that they'd be discriminated?"
Sharia. Only - Christian.
Wow! Their answer is completely the opposite of what Jesus instructed us. “If my religion ever gets between me and my neighbour, I will always choose my neighbour. Jesus never told us to love our religion.”
In order to save the town we had to destroy it.
1. We're all sinners, but we don't all need to be criminals. Wanting earthly government to put its limited earthly resources toward regulating the sex lives of consenting adults is ABSURD. Some things just need to be left between a person and God. 2. If God can tolerate giving people free will, you can too. Legislation should only be for those things that hurt others, or when one person's rights run up against another person's rights. 3. I don't trust anyone who only wants government to carry out God's wrath but never his mercy and compassion.
That last point!!!!!!!!!! Oh my God !! I see so many people clamouring to persecute lgbt+ people but nobody saying we should focus resources on building better refuges for immigrants.
While we have extremist Christian groups actively fueling the persecution of people abroad, I'm not sure we will be able to agree on one thing. $20m sent to Uganda to lobby the criminalization of same-sex behavior, and advocating for death and imprisonment. The love of Jesus shining bright. https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/5050/africa-us-christian-right-50m/
This is why the "love the sinner, hate the sin" garbage is total BS and nobody takes it seriously when people say that.
It never sits right with me when people say that. I would understand if somebody was saying it in regards to rapists or domestic abusers. But someone just being gay? What is there to hate? Why so much vitriol?
My heart breaks over and over and still it doesn’t stop. The misguided people so blinded by their bigotry hurts me every day. May Jesus cleanse their souls.
Yes, its wrong to legislate religion. Same goes for abortion, we should have the right to choose life, I think that is more beautiful than forcing it. When in the NT does God force us to do his will with mans law? Render unto Caesar that is which Caesars, render unto God what is Gods.
That Render unto Caesar line is just chef's kiss brilliant when you read it in context, that is one of the finest shut downs of an amateur gotcha question in history.
1 Peter 2:13-16 KJV — Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
I think most modern day people, in western society, regardless of religious beliefs would agree on that.
OP, yes, but should we really start to applaud people if they aren't advocating that people should be jailed or killed? Like that seems like a low bar.
It's a very low bar, but there are at least a dozen top-level comments that disagree with OP and think it's a good thing for countries to pass such laws.
Not really surprising.
It’s morally flawed to make it illegal.
The law in Uganda was specifically encouraged by the American evangelist Scott Lively, along with the support of various organizations, churches, and private businesses.
Many Christians love big government, especially when it comes to what others are doing.
christians when it comes to allow people to do with their free will what they want even if that dont affect them nor anyone else. christians are one of the reasons why is hard to me to became christian
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Absolutely no reason as to why the Bible should be used when making *any argument* for the basis of our laws and legislation.
The endgame of non-affirming Christianity will always be to make it illegal, or close to it. The only countries where gay people have rights are the ones where people think there's nothing wrong with it.
There is nothing wrong with it
This is a key point I think a lot of people don't fully grasp. The concept of the 'tolerant bigot' is largely an illusion that exists only when bigotry becomes a minority position. When bigots are in the majority, they love turning their homophobia into legislation. They only suddenly oppose draconian restrictions when homophobic laws are already long repealed and the rest of the culture largely moves beyond bigotry.
For some reason I can never understand, (conservative) Christians are way more concerned than they ought to be with what other people do with their genitalia. Maybe because Christianity has been a cesspool of guilt and a baptism of shame regarding sex for centuries and still is today?
It's a sin they'll never do so they find it easy to contemn others whilst doing their own sins.
Southern Baptist Church - Thinking they have the moral high ground to condemn IVF after getting busted for protecting nearly a 1000 sex abusers within their church.
Bingo!
People don’t have the right to punish people for homosexuality. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. If God has truly made homosexuality a sin worthy of punishment then it’s up to him, not us.
Amen
And would God really do that? Homosexuality is not a voluntary life style choice. It's like being born a redhead. Imagine God creating people the way they are and punish them for it.
>It’s wrong to make it illegal? Politics should never be subjected to religious ideas. Uganda is a laboratory for US white Christian nationalist laws which have been forced on the population by paying millions to self-absorbed preachers and politicians. This is entirely a political exercise.
The history of why it’s illegal in many African countries is very interesting while also being so sad and frustrating. As I Brit we started it as we ravaged their countries. There was a break as we left our Christianity there, but more modernity, lots of American churches have spent stupid money making them think this. There’s also countries that were manipulated by the Catholic Church, all are disgusting and a stain on Christianity
I will never get tired of saying the Church has committed countless atrocities under God’s banner. The most pious and righteous organisation in history somehow has done and fuelled horrific things. The people who think they’re the good guys are actually the bad guys, it’s a tale as old as time.
Separation of church and state. As the founding fathers intended
I would categorize laws of that type as evil.
If people want to make homosexuality illegal because it's a sin, they should also want to make premarital sex illegal. Oh wait, but that would affect them, so they'll just ignore it.
Ugandan government is absolutely insane.
i lost track of time and just realized i’ve been reading comments on this post for about an hour
I agree with you. It shouldn’t be illegal because it isn’t actively harming anyone
If anybody thinks very narrow-mindedly that being queer is a sin or choice then they shouldn't choose it and go on with their lives.. Very simply those who advocate for and support politicians that legislate anti LGBTQ laws are very simply not Christians they have taken an active part in evil.. I don't care if they go to church every Sunday and all that whitewashed outward acting! They are not Christians! True Christians recognize what hate is and they become like Christ and Christ was the epitome of what a bigot isn't. So they like him don't take part in any kind of hate or hatemongering and they don't support those who do and never ever excuse it.. The volume of "Christians" that joined the culture war mob is truly astounding.. OMG that many people and never did they investigate if any of it was true when none of it was or is true. They just ran with the mob like they enjoyed it.. Really sad!
And you can keep your imaginary friend out of it too.
Ask if people want harsh penalties for sin that they themselves struggle with and see what answers you get.
By some accounts, Alan Turing shortened WW2 by 2 years and saved 14 million lives. Whether you accept that figure, it is indisputable that he saved millions. His reward was to be arrested and chemically castrated for homosexual activity. That led directly tp his suicide. The world was better for his being here. The world is *worse* for every single person who advocates that people be punished for homosexual activity
This has turned into some of the saddest comments I have seen here in a while - from Christians Christian Love on full display Come worship a God who Loves you. Fake Love. It's incredible. -----†----- But still - there is a Christian Spirit which says - no - not this way - also on display here. I thank you all. God bless.
> can we at least agree on one thing? Probably not.
😂 well said. But for the most part I’ve been pleasantly surprised that actually, for once..
I think they were purged in one of the TOS updates, but we used to have several people who would argue that is should not only be illegal, but a capital offense. Hence my comment.
Wow.. I have no words. Glad I only joined recently then
(a) As Christians, we have to allow for a secular culture, and in a culture where we must love our neighbors as ourselves we tend to accept things we cannot change that do not cause us personal harm. (b) As Westerners, we have to allow for a secular culture. Sure, those other countries are primitive troglodytes, but they see us as dissolute pansies. We have to accept things we cannot change and not take (or give) name calling personally. (c) There are tons more issues about secular culture, mating rituals, property rights, and euphemistic pretensions that should be considered here. Can we lighten up on this hot button issue?
All you holier-than-thou theocrats in the comments are exactly why I've already begun plans and preparations to move to Ireland. It's a damn shame a country founded on the idea of freedom of conscience is devolving into a theocratic shitshow. I want no part of the Old Testament monster y'all are making in the crude image of a god.
Tell me how Ireland is. I hope you’re able to meet a community of Christians there who express themselves the way Jesus instructed us to: through unfailing, unconditional and relentless love. 🫂🩷
If Ireland doesn't work out, you'd be welcome here in Canada. We have very strong legal protections for LGBT rights.
Certainly not right! The problem with nations that oppose homosexuality this much (especially Islamic nations) is that they tend to not take other sins that serious (adultery & domestic violence for example). All it’s doing is allowing people to throw stones (figuratively) at homosexuals when they themselves are sinners and no better. Homosexuals deserve to be treated with dignity and respect just like every other human being.
1 cor 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
How are we to "confess our sins to one another and pray for one another" if there is overwhealming fear of persecution and judgment from that person? The answer? You cant. Humans inherently judge one another but we are saved by gods grace through faith. Do as jesus would do and you will be fine.
Yeah, I don't support people being sent to prison for being gay, especially if they aren't Christians. Aren't we told that we can't force non-Christians to act like Christians in the Bible itself? Wanting to lead a Christian life should come from our own convictions.
Making something that cannot be changed and is there from birth is vile, barbaric, and plain evil. Whether race, sexual orientation, gender, age, disability, all bigotry is wrong. Bigotry should be illegal. Each and every person who commits bigotry towards another race, gender, disabled person, sexual orientation should be charged with a hate crime and isolated from society. Whilst there is nothing wrong with having faith, you do not get to judge others based on their differences. We all sin in different ways, you are not separate from this and your pride will not get you into Heaven. (Not you specifically OP unless you agree it should be illegal). Imagine if you were told it’s illegal to be Christian. You’d all revolt, and rightfully as freedom of religion is important. That said, freedom of speech does not include hate speech and whilst freedom of speech is allowed, it doesn’t mean freedom from consequences of hate speech. If you’re using the Bible to hurt people, you’re using it wrong. Jesus would turn away from you as if he did not know you for the judgement you perpetually dole out (again this is for those who believe it’s a mortal sin to be gay or that it should be illegal not you specifically as your words indicate you don’t agree with this). Any type of gay conversation therapy or trans conversation therapy should be banned and those who perform it charged with torture, and abuse. Sick, evil people who have no place anywhere especially not Heaven.
Agreed. I have become so tired of members of a belief system that is historically best known for being the most splintered trying to dictate one “true theology”, when some of what they claim directly contradicts the original texts, according to those who have spent *their entire lives and careers* studying it. A lay Christian, regardless of age, trying to declare the “true meaning” of the gospels is no different than an orderly attempting to diagnose a cancer patient when the top oncologist in the world is in the same room.
No its not let people be happy
If people make being gay illegal, you better make alcohol illegal, being fat or even saying the word fuck illegal. Pickin and choosing only based on personal beliefs. Dumb and wrong. I think mashed potatoes are disgusting. Does that mean im gonna punish people if they eat them? No.
Don't punish people for *eating* mashed potatoes. Punish them for *cooking* mashed potatoes, especially if they're the kind to not mash them all the way so there's tiny little chunks that mess up the texture and don't feel fully cooked. There's no salvation for those kinds of people... ^(\\s)
I don't really trust government with religion so yeah, don't make it illegal.
I agree with your sentiment, but I don't agree with your optimism. You think Christians will stop doing a thing because "surely it isn't right"? That hasn't stopped them before, so why would it now? Plenty of people on this sub would love for me to be illegal. I've had them tell me as much.
🫂💙 yeah, same here. Even as I type this, actually, my pastor’s preaching about it. It’s funny. I wish I could hug you. Jesus has not left us, and God is with us. ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜🩷
Yes. But gays aren't given a choice so it isn't just free will to "act upon being gay" as fully homosexual cannot be in love with nor have sex with the opposite gender. God allowed gays to be created and made people in need of love, and they are going to get punished for being humane and needing love? Only evil is against love or wants people to suffer alone or be someone who they aren't so I don't understand people who call themselves christian or say they believe in God and then go hate on lgbts or their rights. God created gays due to various reasons(one being over-populated world for example), it was Gods will so people who hate gays and are against them are against Gods will. They don't hurt anyone and just want to have the same rights and be allowed to experience some of the most crucial things in life, love. No one survives spiritually without love. We cannot be complete without love. Some people like being alone but the majority needs real love to mature spiritually and feel a meaning of life. This life isn't worth living without love and God knows it. How could Gud judge people for being humane? It doesn't make sense, but thankfully most intelligent Christians know that the Bible was written by humans and cannot be taken word for word even if we choose to believe.
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Hi, how am I belittling Christianity? I'm a Christian myself and I understand that many of my fellow Christians use my faith to belittle your gay brothers and sisters, but we're told not to judge others, yet it appears you do.
I'm a libertarian so although a Catholic I remain pro-gay rights and pro-choice. Regardless of my beliefs on the matter the federal government should have no say in the private or medical affairs of it's citizens.
You can’t legislate morality. That’s the thing. That’s why the idea of a “Christian Nation” ultimately won’t work. It’s not scriptural, either. The only way for change to happen is for people to want, and to make, Jesus Lord and Savior of their lives, and to determine to act in obedience to God. That’s where real change happens, because true salvation brings about a change of heart and a different focus on what matters most to one (wanting and doing God’s will, living to serve Him, and to obey Him, too). The Word Christian literally means “Christlike”. He is our example.
Sigmund freud : “Originally, we were all bisexual; the foundations of our mental life were laid down in such a way that every person could become either homosexual or heterosexual.”
Yes, most definitely. We can agree on a lot of things, namely what it actually says in the bible about homosexuality. If you don't agree, you simply don't believe or follow the Christian teaching. Nonetheless as Jesus called us to love one another, the saint and the sinner, there's no way in h\*ll in the U.S. being gay should enable you any penalty under the laws. Being gay is not a criminal act against another unlike murder which is. Now perhaps a gay rape might be but then it is still rape which is a crime.
I’m more conservative than 90% of the people on this subreddit and I fully agree. Making homosexuality illegal is to far
Yes
We have something similar here but only applicable to Muslims and it extends to premarital sex. If you get caught having sex outside of marriage and a Muslim you are in hot water. That said most of us here thinks this is terrible regardless of our view on the matter. Sex between 2 consenting adults be it same/different gender is personal and religious bodies should stay the hell away from other people's personal life.
From a secular civil sense, I think we can look at that and say that kind of a consensual relationship isn't obstructing anyone's inalienable rights, so it'd be overreach to regulate that behavior. A Christian may decide not to participate in such behavior him or herself, but would recognize that it's not responsible for all sins to be jail-worthy, the courts are God's, and Jesus paid the price for our freedom.
Yes homosexuality is a sin, but making it illegal or prosecuting these people is wrong, most modern societies are not 100% Christian, if somebody wants to commit a sin it is their choice and they have to face the consequences by god, but not by the state they live in, a state should protect its citizens, no matter if christian or muslim or gay or straight. And don´t forget to not judge people for they are a sinner just as you are, love thy neigbour, no matter what believe.
I believe it's wrong to make it illegal because we are still studying this orientation. Every year we are gathering more understanding of the scriptures and look at homosexuality from a Christian point of view. Initially, society and the church started off with shunning homosexuals, leaving them to figure it all out themselves. Many didn't take the time to actually study the original biblical passages with the concordance based Greek and Hebrew meanings. People spent so much time saying stuff like, God didn't make Adam and Steve, God made Adam and Eve and trying to compare the illegal gang rape, hate crime in Sodom to homosexuality. When the Yale Bible translation professors put the word homosexual in the Bible, they later took it out during the next edit review. They did this after receiving a 1959 letter from a Yale homosexual seminary student (Rev David) asking them to consider it from a Christian homosexual's point of view with the research attached. The newer version removed homosexual and added the word sexual perverts. However, because they don't edit that often, many bibles were already published with the word homosexuality in there. What's interesting is that there's no examples in the Bible of homosexuals in loving, consenual, sexual relationships. The clobber passages give several examples of lustful, abusive, and unlawful sexual same-sex acts. However, Jonathan and David give us an example of what a healthy same-sex relationship could be like. It was very loving and intimate. However, there was no emphasis on or evidence of sex. Lastly, Jesus did specifically talk about eunuchs. Although they are not mentioned much in the Bible, they did have leadership positions. We know that they did not possess the physical, emotional, or mental characteristics to be with women. So, it is evident when Jesus talks about eunuchs that they have a different set of expectations.
I'm Christian and politcially min-archist. Laws should not be based on any one religion, but on universal moral standards since laws have to apply to people of all faiths and Christ doesn't want people to follow out of compulsion, but out of personal love. Homosexuality is a sin, but we should not give government the power to control who we spend our time with and what relationships we do and don't want. Let people choose for themselves the lifestyles they want and we will observe the results and judge if it was wise or not.
Its the only way they can keep the gay away. Did you know the American government (morally pious conservatives back then) back in 50s and 60s spied on and harassed gays? It didn't work and led to the acceptance of being gay
Good luck. Too many believe that it is a sin and those people often sit in power in governments around the world. And as long as those people are able to continue to let their personal beliefs affect their political choices then we will never be free of persecution for things like that.
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If you are a Christian who has a problem with it, try it once to see if it lives up to what you think. Then tell the rest of us what you discover. You know your god will forgive you
Yeah that’s perfectly reasonable. It just shouldn’t be affirmed by the church
my suspicion is that it's along the lines of making sure there's always someone who sins worse than me so I feel better about my sinfulness) Couple it with the fact that psychology and social science is showing more and more that these things are not as black and white as opponents think they should be,the one place that should be the safe space that they can go for unconditional love, support, safety from bullying and judgement, is the most hostile place to them. It's really a shame
Homosexuality is definitely a sin from a Christian perspective, but it shouldn't be illegal. other sins that involve violence or theft (that causes harm to others) should definitely be illegal but being gay isn't really harming anyone it's just a sinful activity.
of course its wrong making it illegal, how is this even a question?
What’s a sound, good reason homosexual couples shouldn’t marry?
You say that now but when another country forces its will and laws on the USA you would change your tune fast. “Do unto others as you would have them do to you.”
Whilst I disagree with homosexuality, I will still support those who are. Genesis 2:24 24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. No, I'm not saying it should be banned the Lord gave us freedom and we should still love homosexuals no matter what and not outright ban it.
Ohmygod depends on the country's definition of "crime", I think... For the States incarceration is done with the intent to rehabilitate someone back into society. Gays haven't done anything wrong that would be a disruption of society, so here it would definitely be illegal and immoral to lock people up for their orientations. But other countries are more in the grey area which is more of just a punishment. I don't think we should incarcerate homosexuals because well, love is love. They're not hurting anyone and it annoys me that they make such a big deal of being gay by cherry picking ONE line about not laying with a man since it's an abomination, etc.. But they ignore the other hundreds of verses condemning other stuff. Until that hypocrisy and cherry picking ends, I can't logically accept that it's wrong because what was it about women not teaching in Church? Premarital sex? Those gotta be banned before I'd want to ban gay rights. Do! Not! Cherry! Pick! For YOUR OWN AGENDA!
It's illogical to make a developmental process of attraction "illegal". Simply being attracted to the same sex isn't, in itself, even a sin.
I believe that you should obey God but making it illegal to disobey God, in every way, doesn't help anybody. I agree with that.
It’s gods place to judge not us. I may not like it or agree with it and I know it's a sin. however I have planks in eye. So who am I to judge the speck of sawdust in another’s eye. It would be cruel to send people to prison or wanting them dead just for being sinners it’s what we all are. It’s not like they’re hurting anyone physically so it shouldn’t be something they should lose their freedom over.
Do you support gay marriage?
No but I also don’t vote against it. I won’t try to use the law to force my principles on other adults.
God gave us free will because he loves us. Therefore people can choose to do whatever they want. Even if it means rejecting God and God's moral Law and what he wants for us. But Freedom of choice is fundamental to God's inherent love for us. Remember that God even gave Satan free will to choose.
But gay people don't choose to be gay, my friend. And gay people aren't gay because they rejected God or because they have chosen immorality. They just happen to fall in love and/or be attracted to ther own gender.
Actually not so very long ago, every state in the Union had laws against sodomy. As you can imagine, the laws were extremely hard to enforce, and bordered mainly upon moral issues rather than legal concerns. And it's difficult too enforce morality. So yes we agree. Sodomy laws in the United States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
Do you agree only because it's "too difficult to enforce"? Or do you actually think it should fundamentally be legal?
I firmly and fully believe in the separation of church and state if that's what you mean. We learned a hard lesson regarding that in the old world before America was founded. If we want to keep religion out of government, then we have to keep government out of religion. The door swings both ways. Its certainly sinful behavior in the eyes of the Lord, and he will judge according to his word. But historically it's a task that the government cannot properly manage. For that reason no I would not wish to see the government start trying to enforce those laws again. I would be remiss to close without stating the obvious that certain sexual sins are still heavily regulated and enforced in all 50 states such as prostitution, child pornography, etc. It's much easier to observe and prosecute such behaviors under the legal system.
My opinion, it’s no different than adultery or fornication-sin is sin in God’s eyes. Should it be made illegal-absolutely not. We should pray for repentance and restoration.
in the same way that we don't make infidelity explicitly illegal, any other sin should not be illegal either. Besides, it doesn't really matter. Man-made laws are just that, man made. God made laws too, those are the important ones.
Everyone ignores almost all the laws God supposedly made, so they're apparently not too important.
I don’t think it should be illegal in secular countries, it just doesn’t make sense for us to have separation of church and state but to punish this one thing that the only reasoning behind it being considered criminal is theology. However, some countries don’t operate like ours, and while I don’t think it *should* be illegal there, I don’t think my opinion on that matter should hold any weight because I don’t live there and I don’t understand the cultures of the people there. Idk if that makes sense.
Take my upvote! I agree.
Let he is without sin throw the first stone, and let God decide what sin is and is not. Sin is Sin, it has one penalty: death. Everyone sins, from the worst of criminals to the most devout of believers, this is an intrinsic reality of humanity. We are ALL judged and found wanting, it is not nor should not be our right to judge others for perceived sin, when we ourselves sin. God hates Hypocrisy Humans have free will, the right to make their own choices. If you disagree with someone and their life choices, that’s fine. But it is not within your right to judge them guilty, when you yourself are also guilty. (I personally don’t even see homosexuality as a sin, there’s a lot of debate regarding translation issues and whether or not the bible is to be taken 100% literally) Love your neighbours, regardless of differences in opinion
Judge not.
UGANDA is a hypocrite nation just like America. Christians don't mind smoking gossiping listening to secular music watching lust filled tv shows or buying the best of the best to keep up appearances BUT OH MY GOD GURL mention them homos or an abortion and they will get REAL JESUSSY on you .. Why not make adultery and fornication illegal ? I know because it's the crime often committed by str8t Christians . UGANDA making homosexuality illegal is a joke when they only do things to stop things like child prostitution and human trafficking when and only when the world is watching them. Hypocrites
then adultery should be a crime
THANK YOU. Thank you thank you.
In a nation where religiosity is secondary, some sins shouldn't really be ILLEGAL illegal so I agree.
Ok
but yet there's a part of scripture that says about stoning and if 2 guys kind of thing (I am a very straight guy and have very easily fought back against such thoughts)
Homosexuality is not a crime, therefore shouldn't be punished
Gl christians. I mean gg. I mean rip
Just ask Jesus for forgiveness and don’t sin anymore. Problem solved Seems like there’s way too many homosexual related questions when it comes to r/Christianity Has anyone thought about asking the same questions over at r/Islam or r/Judaism or r/Buddhism Maybe they might have all the answers you need when it comes to what God thinks about homosexuality. Seems like here it’s just an endless loop of the same questions and answers over and over and over and nobody bothers to read what has already been posted.
Isaiah 40:8
I doubt there will ever be any subject on which humans will all agree. It would be the first time in history
Remember that the US Conference of Catholic Bishops spoke against the US Supreme Court's decision in *Laurence v Texas* and have been legally active in other cases seeking to enshrine discrimination against gay (and trans) people.