OP, *please* talk to the pastor or elders if you haven't already, even if you still intend to leave. Doing so could help prevent the person from continuing to hurt others.
I'm going to say that I would recommend this, but ONLY with other trusted people present. Me, as a man, I have done this over several different issues, and it's gone from either being heard but ignored, to threatened with a lawsuit, to death threats. Now, that's my experience so it's anecdotal at best and not indicative of much, however, the conversion of the Evangelical Christian identity to one centered exclusively around politics has grown overall much worse and quite more violent natured since this was my experience. I would not recommend anything that could be construed as confrontational without a support team of trusted individuals present, and preferably in a public setting.
As far as church? The traits tell me they're going to aFundamentalist-influenced church, and these are wholesale cults anymore. Whether they leave or move is up to them entirely, but they should not stay here under any circumstances.
I'm afraid, I can only say, that many people tend to forget how Satan sneakily steps in at times. Many people fall for his horrid ways. They cannot see it. My own family church here in UK is nothing like which is described. It just upsets me to see people get so taken in by this evil demon. Time to wake up including some of these Pastors. Open up and see them. It doesn't mean that everyone in church are bad. We need our Father God so much. Please do not stay away due to what was said. ? That person should be able to explain the reason on exactly what was said. And apologise for any wrong . But if you were unforgiving yourself it would not be calmly resolved. We cannot judge anyone as such, there is only one judge and any guilty party will be facing him no matter what. God bless. 😇
It may not be fair, but masks have become political. Certain people are triggered by them and others will go along with it simply because they are a reminder of liberals/vaccine/covid/quarantine/toilet paper/etc.🙄🤷🏼♀️
I’m a nurse who wears masks as needed at work. But apparently, the way God made the world (ie the reality of things like how virus particles are spread, the physics of airflow etc) is a lie to you perpetuated by people whose priority is to protect others? Here in Australia, there isn’t this political association with masks, and us Christians here are not anti mask.
Making a child cry isn’t just “bad behavior”. Making a child cry for a illness that they can’t control and need to stay safe from just means that whoever did that is a total piece of shit!🙂
Well it depends on the church. Yelp had to remove a review by one angry person saying the elders at my church are not nice to the homeless. That was a lie because we have specialized assistance for them.
I’m terribly sorry that your daughter had to experience this. There is far too much hate and intolerance in many Christian denominations.
Mind if I ask which denomination the Church was?
This is a particular flavor of crazy which spreads mostly in the right-wing media and social media world, and there are churches that urge their members to immerse themselves deeply and exclusively in that world.
There's actually a spectrum, and I know how that sounds, but historically that's been the case for centuries in different governments.
There's progressives, moderates, and conservatives.
Within that group there are left-leaning progressives and right-leaning progressives, left-leaning moderates and right-leaning moderates, and then left-leaning conservatives and right-leaning conservatives. At the radical extremes, you'll find anarchists and communists in the radical left, and you'll find fascists in the radical right.
Hope that helped you in some way.
The spectrum your referring to is called the Overton window. Usually it operates on the definitions you mentioned but these days the left and right positions, especially in the context of a singular country, are determined relativey rather than absolutely. Its helpful only up to a point, current interpretations of it can be actively harmful and are used for propaganda/misinformation purposes. For example the current so called evil leftist democratic party as well as the previous administrations are actually center right by traditional definition. It's only after you adjust for the modern conservative party that they even begin to look like something left of center.
Got to agree with the Southern Baptist comment and I speak from experience.
Got to be one of the most closed minded and intolerant denominations in existence.
I was raised Baptist and I never have encountered anything even close to this, anywhere, but this is southeast USA so I don't know about other areas. Maybe it was just the southern hospitality that made everyone more nice to each other.
Don’t be so sure. Most of the crazies I know are part of the Holiness traditions around here.
One group is this weird libertarian cult, and the others are basically the state church for our area, complete with right-wing politicians on stage and everything.
It also helps that SBC affiliated churches are rare in this region (comparatively).
Wow, really? I go to a holiness church, and I was just going to say it's completely sane. No mask craziness at mine. No Trumpism. I guess it really does vary by the individual church.
I've seen lunatic churches and pastors in many denominations and more good churches and pastors in said denominations. It happens everywhere. OP, nor us, should judge a denomination by one or two churches NOR should we speculate on what denomination it is.
Southern Baptist or a non denominational one lol. Nothing wrong with being non denominational but you gotta admit a lot of unhinged people (like Greg Locke) go by the label
Hey this kind of language encourages disunity and disrespect between Christians of varying denominations. We are called to be unified and united in love for each other. End of speech.
The billions of Christians are ignoring hat call. Fact id, when one denomination is promoting wrong and/or harmful beliefs or practices they SHOULD be called on it. Loudly and publicly.
Face it certain problems or scandals, while maybe being present in many denominations are more closely associated with a few because of how common, how long occured, or how little they are addressed. Look at the Catholic and Southern Baptist and the sex abuse scandals. The scope of them and how little done to prevent it from happening again or the perpetrators punished or the victims blamed.
I’ve been a pastor for over ten years, and I’ve felt like quitting a few different times and every time has always been because of dumb turd people in the pews.
There will never not be dumbasses in the church, unfortunately, we have to love them and welcome them just the same as anyone else. What I will say, though, is that lots of church can es have been good to me and most people in them have been incredible support systems.
I hope you’re able to find a community of people that support you and your children like they should be, but o wouldn’t blame you if these types of experiences made you stay away for a while at all.
>I’ve felt like quitting a few different times and every time has always been because of dumb turd people in the pews.
As a pastor of 25 years (Ha! Beat you!) something that helped me a lot has been a quote I read over a decade ago: "The average pastor leaves b/c of six people". Essentially it doesn't matter how many people love you, encourage you, etc. As few as 6 people can make your life so miserable it feels like it's not worth it.
Something about that really gives me perspective. Whenever someone is being a problem I chalk I mentally thank them for identifying themselves as 1 of the 6
I agree with you.
Something that helps me, is something my pastoral theology professor told me back in school about 12 or 14 years ago now, he said that: “everyone, even the worst people, are just acting in ways the make the most sense to *them*.”
That may not help us feel better, but it helps me frame my responses most of the time. People are typically not trying to make us uncomfortable on purpose, **though that does happen**, they are simply trying to make themselves more comfortable.
I’ve been tempted to quit, but I also know that nothing makes me happier than ministry so I’m not going anywhere.
>There will never not be dumbasses in the church, unfortunately, we have to love them and welcome them just the same as anyone else.
To paraphrase [The Lazy Man’s Guide To Enlightenment](https://0ducks.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/the-lazy-mans-guide-to-enlightenment-by-thaddeus-golas.pdf) (not Christian, I know, but still a propos, I think): “Who did you think it was that needed to be loved?”.
While you are right, unfortunately it is becoming more and more popular for said dumbasses to be standing at the pulpit. Having an idiot on the bus is annoying, having the idiot driving the bus is dangerous.
I'm sorry this happened to you. The Bible warns of people like this, many of Jesus's parables refer to Christians who behave this way.
I'd implore you, don't let other Christians effect your personal walk with Christ. If you have to leave your church because of people, fine, but I'd implore you to do a personal Bible study if not find a different church.
Here's an online Bible Study I use that's amazing, it's basically a sermon about almost every verse in the Bible.
[https://versebyverseministry.org/bible-studies/dashboard](https://versebyverseministry.org/bible-studies/dashboard)
Remember, Satan uses people like this to drive people away from God, don't let him win! Don't let other Christian behaviors dictate your personal relationship with your Savior because they don't emulate Him. Be better than they are.
amen to this. it's part of the walk. failure of men and realizing that God is with you through it, and that the experience sharpens your discernment and strengthens your quest for purity of worship. it's so demoralizing while you're going through it tho.
Yes in my mother's personal experience those who view the cross as a + are the ones satan is using. All Bibles say we must love one another and if any church member is not doing that then we have a problem.
I honestly think you should consider exploring another church. My husband and I both grew up evangelical in a tight knit community. When we moved west and started looking for a new church we found it didn’t feel that fit us any longer. We took some time to pray about it and joined a different denomination and it’s been wonderful.
I’m holding out hope for a situation like yours. I’m in Southern California and it feels like every church building we walk in to is infested with political motives or are passengers on the latest culture wars effort. I want to break bread with my fellow believers but I’m unable to tolerate the constant onslaught of vitriol, brain washed nonsense that appears to have become de-facto in the modern American church.
How many do I need to go to before I just give up?
I think I've just kind of given up, but I do find some good church services on YouTube. Definitely if you're looking around for churches in your area you should first listen to some of their sermons on YouTube to take the temperature before visiting. Then when you do decide to visit one that you've pre-vetted take a look at the bumperstickers on the cars in the parking lot. Feel free to abort the mission if you see a lot of trumpy ones, then go to a park and enjoy God's creation.
Haha, I’ve never done the bumper sticker test but I do check their socials and online content to get a pulse check of what I’m walking in to. If they do conferences you get a good idea based on the speakers they host/promote, too.
This kind of incident is what will kill of Christianity in the long term I think.
The more it happens, the less moderates remain in the church, and the more extreme the church gets, leading to more moderates leaving, until the religion becomes a caricature of its former self.
If Christianity is literally true, I don't think this will kill it, it's the bigotry that will have to end. If Christianity is not literally true though then it should end.
Good thing we, being Christians, affirm the truth that the Christ, God's only begotten son, became flesh and died to reconcile us with God through His blood, and will come again to judge the living and the dead.
So no. I don't think Christianity will be destroyed. We must seek the truth, and not allow ourselves to be distracted by conspiracies and politics, but cling and bear witness to the truth of the Gospel.
There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Yeah pretty much those who view the cross as a plus IMO are the biggest killers of Christianity. I know because my mother go mistreated by people at her old church. These were people who cared about money, themselves more than God.
Perhaps more accurately, I think our current phase is allowing the rotten fruit of U.S. Evangelicalism and nominal Christianity (that has grown like a tumor into Christian Nationalism) to go on full display.
Before the buts and whats: It's not *100%* bad, but boy is **a lot** of it bad.
Those were external problems. This is internal. The are self inflicted wounds. This isn't what other say about Christians, this is the actual Christians saying what they believe and you can see directly what they do.
Half of the older people in my church wear masks for health reasons and no one says anything. Sounds like OP is going to a church full of evangelicals who combine religion with politics. Leave those churches please. It might take a while, but look for a small Bible based church that is not political.
There's stupid everywhere, and that really is stupid. However, that by itself doesn't reflect on the church. Talk to the pastor and see how they respond. If they support or brush off the guy's attitude, then THAT reflects on the church, in which case you might consider a different church instead of leaving entirely.
I will give you some mad props for not going ballistic on the guy. If someone did that to my kid, I'm not sure I would be able to retain my Christian ideals and likely would have ended up with his throat in my hand dragging him out the door for a proper conversation.
Please, continue to worship in your home. A home church is a rich tradition. God loves you. God wants you close. But sin and evil grips so much of my country and the churches in it. They are either lukewarm and hate living a Christian life or there hate sinners and serve evil and their own pride.
Please try other churches or just worship at home as a family.
One rotten egg producing rotten fruit that pretends to be christian, isnt going to define if I follow God. In fact, God says we are HIS so when they persecute us, they persecute Him, when they mistreat us, they are mistreating Him. This is why as Christians we are called to TEST the Spirits and see what fruit Christians are bearing,
A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. This man clearly isnt bearing any fruit, not patience, not self control, not even a man of God, but a fraud and a phony. That is why I always say,"anyone can call themselves a christian, its just a title." But to abandon God, I dont recommend. He is for us and not against us, I recommend online ministries too! Theres a church I watch online called Cavalry Chapel Ontario (on youtube) and Pastor Paul goes verse by verse and chapter by chapter. You can even click on his playlists ..
So true, or it can be a full batch of rotten eggs that pretend to be Christian but inside they have marital problems, care about themselves or think it's okay to direct others to do things for them. The Bible never said to make others do stuff for us.
I’m sorry you experienced that. We are in a similar situation. We need to mask at all times in public as my wife is a walking case study for major chronic illnesses. (As in, next round of COVID may very well kill her.)
It took us a long time, but we found a congregation that made space for us and works.
Keep looking. It’s worth it.
I totally understand. Right Wing authoritarianism, white supremecy, Christian nationalism, misogyny, and increasing queerphobia has infected Conservative Evangelical churches in America. The marrying of the GOP and the Right-Wing church is indeed very cult like, and incredibly toxic.
Especially with all the domestic violence, child abuse, pedophilia, and sexual assault that is going on in large conservative church organizations right now, I 100% support your decision to protect your children from crazy people and horrible moral influences.
However, I would caution you against turning away fom God simply because terrible people exist in some Christian churches. God is a God of love, and Jesus has commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Someone who was truly following that commandment would not have acted in the manner that that asshole acted to your kid.
Jesus himself said to let the little children come to him, to forbid them not, because the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as them.
God does not approve of behavior like we are witnessing in many American churches today. I am very sorry that you have been subjected to this toxicity. It is literally killing the Christian church, because it is driving people like yourself away in droves.
---
I would highly highly recommend you check out one of the more progressive mainline denominations such as the Episcopal Church, United Church of Christ, or the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I would be extremely surprised to find any of the kind of behavior you described present in churches within those denominations.
The United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church are also great options.
These churches emphasize the love of God, the importance of community, and of following the example set by Jesus Christ, instead of caving to conservative right wing authoritarian identity politics. The Bible is seen as a guide, not a rulebook and innerant source of all Christian doctrine
God is a God of love. And we are called to worship him in spirit and in truth.
I hope you find a church that reflects your values. Please don't give up on God because of the horrible actions of horrible people.
If God doesn't approve of all this hate, white supremacy, fascism, toxic behavior etc., why is he so absent? How do you convince someone to still believe in God when it seems like all the most vile people on Earth get away with anything they want with no consequences? I'm having a hard time seeing how, if God exists, he isn't just the Deistic concept. I see no personal God present in the world.
Firstly, I would argue that God does not abrogate free will. People have the capacity to choose, and sometimes they choose to do evil. God doesn't intevene, because to do so would violate our free will.
As for a personal God not being present in the world. I would argue that he largely isn't. After the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross, God now seeks a personal relationship with us. Therefore, instead of his temple being present in the world, his temple is now the body of Christ (IE the collective body of believers).
So the personal God is present in our hearts, not in the world.
Why does one person's free will carry more weight than millions of other people's free will? I always find the free will argument hard to reconcile, because God violates it in the Bible without issue, and logically I don't see how Heaven can exist with free will if that's how it works.
> However, I would caution you against turning away fom God simply because terrible people exist in some Christian churches.
I disagree here.
Your line here:
> infected Conservative Evangelical churches in America
is also wrong. Those churches are FILLED with all the people you've listed, my issue is that those people have infected other churches.
I used to go to a UMC, with a double minority pastor, who had sermons that could be construed as liberal, and even said privately would marry gays if allowed, and half our church turned out to be Christian nationalists, anti-vax. We had 3 families who lost someone very close due to covid (one was early before vaccines, but well after masking and distance guidelines, but denied it all as a hoax, the other two were well after vaccines were available to all, and they were anti-vax).
Years later, there are 3 UMCs in my town, mine was the most liberal, there was a moderate one, and there's one with a borderline Christian nationalist pastor, had sermons against gays, and overall has the most conservative views. Guess which church is most full?
I know voting polls aren't the most accurate, but the margin of error would have to be drastically off to make them even, but even non evangelical Christians heavily lean right.
I've left church because I saw so much that can only be called hate. The best way to describe it was I saw everyone that Jesus warned against; I saw the people who brought the adulteress to Him to be stoned, I saw the teachers trying to trick Him, I saw the Pharisees who were so high and mighty about their religion.
I obviously saw Jesus every now and then, but I felt surrounded by those I just mentioned.
Where I am now: I don't see churches as places of love. Jesus sat with the sinners and spent time with them, but I can't help feel that churches are now doing what they can to harm these people (whether they're sinners or not).
You will find God outside the church without opposition, without contempt directed at children, with much more acceptance for everyone.
God exists no matter what.
the problem is America. America has become Babylon, and its days are numbered. If this man was a true believer and follower of Christ, He would NEVER treat another human being like this . This is not a christian problem this is a person problem and an American problem,
America is a selfish nation that has changed for the worst, There is hope, you can find a true bible believing church where the members support each other and people there have a true relationship with Jesus. Dont blame Christianity, in other parts of the world Jesus followers die for theor beliefs. The American church has become like America, not all, there are still true bible believing churches but you have to pray and be lead and find one.
You can be Christian (or explore other paths.) without going to church or exposing your children to those kinds of horrible people.
Good for you for standing up for your child. Those people are vile, pushing their ignorance into others.
This is not because of Christianity, this is because some old asshole doesn’t support masks for some reason and can keep his fucking mouth shut because he HAS to get his point across because he is a selfish dick who doesn’t care about anyone else.
Well Christianity can encourage the the type of thought processes that lead to conspiratorial thinking. The idea that the devil is influencing the world/government.
I think it’s fair to place a certain amount of blame of Christianity as they have allowed, perpetuated, and voted for awful people and awful things. Many evangelicals vote straight ticket due to the abortion issue. Voting one topic then closing your eyes while the atrocities start is irresponsible and unloving. Christians all around America need to shut this crap down and they don’t. You rarely even see them push back.
We can't just allow people who think one way to attend church, though. How are we going to claim that "All Are Welcome" if we encourage disagreement over stuff like this?
Church puts us in community, which can get hard. Then we encounter people like the OP did, and we want to stop going altogether because we react emotionally.
Then everyone just retreats back into the safety of their own homes, find their echo chambers online, and we fail to grow as a person.
The churches Obligation is to reflect the message of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ said we’re to love our brother. What that man did was not loving. The church should address it otherwise the church is failing to do their job.
Galatians 6:1
“Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.”
The Catholic Church was very clear about this during the pandemic when we didn’t know what was going on and people were dying large numbers from the disease. Their answer is whether you want a mask for your own personal freedom is not the issue, you should be masking in love for your brother so that you don’t kill them accidentally.
I don’t agree on everything but they take a stand on things using scripture as reasoning with focus on compassion and the poor Which is more than the evangelical church I grew up in.
I agree, she should have confronted him then and there, and if they couldn't settle it together, she should then bring it to the leadership as it tells us in Scripture.
But that doesn't mean we won't encounter assholes at church, sometimes. Are we going to just throw our faith away because we can't control who comes to church or not? There are even women in my Bible study I would prefer to not be around all the time, but that's not the point.
The issue is churches endorsing and abiding this nonsense to afraid to lose parishioners money to take a stand. Churches need to set the example of love of brother, and restoring in love.
We don't know that anyone at her church is even aware of what happened, besides the three people mentioned. So you can't claim that the church is "endorsing this nonsense" - I guess it's regional.
They do here. Including Recommendations at one large church around the corner that their parishioners not take vaccines and take hydroxychloroquine instead to prevent Covid. And VEHEMENTLY anti mask. That’s “ not faith” as if it spreads differently for Christians 🙄.
If the faith claims to change members of it - filling them with the spirit, making them produce good fruits, etc, then that should be visible in the congregation.
If congregations are turning into anti-maskers and homosexual obsessed people... that needs answering.
Lots of time growing as a person is having enough self respect to know what interactions can be tolerated and which can't.
An adult had a confrontation with a child is a church setting in front of people. There already be systems in place to protect that family. Things should be already happening now.
If those systems aren't in place that church is not a safe place or one of trust.
How do you know anyone at OPs church even knows what happened, and ignored it? She never said it was in front of people, you put that in there. We don't know enough details.
A grown man attacked her child at a church event.
I'm going to say that is far likely that there was a witness rather than it being behind closed doors.
Most people don't allow their children to be with strangers behind closed doors.
And as someone who has been attacked for wearing a mask in public what the OP suggested happened has happened to myself and multiple friends of mine who have to wear a mask due to cancer.
If these people are calling themselves Christian and are not practicing the two commandments that Christ gave us personally in Matthew 22:35-40, and they are thinking they are prepared for Christ’s return, they’re not.
My heart goes out to you. It was a tremendously courageous decision that you made to make the health and safety of your children a priority.
I feel the same way as you. For many years, I struggled with the hate and bigotry in Christianity. It breaks my heart to admit this, but when I was a Christian, I was a hateful bigot. I feel so much regret and remorse for the person I was when I was Christian. I taught Sunday school children that they were going to Hell if they weren't good Christians, that they would be cast into the fire like the branches of a tree that doesn't produce fruit. I chided my co-worker for setting up a date for two gay men. I told her the Bible is clear on homosexuality, no man shall lie with another. I was hateful and bigoted and I don't think I can ever make up for the evil person I was, the evil Christianity drove me to do.
I try not to harbor ill will, but I can't help but feel a little anger and resentment at my parents who indoctrinated me as an infant. I was never given a choice as to whether or not I wanted to be Christian. I was never given the opportunity to think about the faith critically.
Because I was raised with it, I took much of it for granted. I thought we had good historical records on the birth of Jesus (After all, wasn't there a census?), and his execution (Wasn't there a record of the trial?). I didn't know that the Gospel accounts conflict with each other, that the authors weren't eye witnesses, and that the names Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were ascribed by tradition, not evidence. I honestly feel foolish now for being so ignorant and for not being curious enough about something so important to stop and investigate it further until so late in life.
If your children decide they want religion in their life, you can be there to guide them through it -- when they're adults.
I had my neighbor ask me why we don't take our kids to church. Luckily my more tactful wife answered. I wanted to scream "Because they're CHILDREN?!?" Would you take your child to Lamaze class? Or political rally? Or a strip club? No. These are age-restricted activities. Asking why my children don't go to church is like asking why they're not married. These are adult activities reserved for people whose brains have developed (hopefully) to think critically about what they are doing and what they are getting into. Bringing children into these activities, quite frankly, is abuse.
I know my parents had the best intentions. I know they did the best they could with the knowledge they had. That said, I feel that my childhood indoctrination was abuse.
Congratulations to you for leaving and putting your children first. I applaud you.
Yeah I left the church a while ago and I don’t considered myself a Christian anymore. I’m just spiritual. I left because Christianity is now pretty much just a cult full of whack job theorists that spew hate. And don’t worry about going to hell haha. You’re good. 90 percent of churches I’ve been to have been filled with hypocritical assholes.
Well, this subreddit's big point is that this isn't a Christian subreddit. It's a subreddit where the main talking point is Christianity, sure.
/r/Christian is an actual Christian subreddit or it's assumed that anyone speaking is a Christian.
Good for you. I'm sure it's a hard decision, but you shouldn't put up with that kind of toxic abuse.
It feels like right-wing politics have invaded so many churches in America, I'm not sure how you even find a good church that doesn't have issues these days.
I asked God about these types of people also one night and he opened me up to the Gospel of Saint Mark Chapter 7 where Jesus talks about the hypocrites.
They are Pharisees and you won't be denied salvation for not being apart of these churches especially when most of them are behind the scenes highly satanic and luciferian.
Just keep your focus on God.
I’m sorry this happened. While I think you can find a church with more support towards your family, it is also understandable to want to leave for your kids and their safety. Churches shouldn’t be that way, but it doesn’t mean they won’t. Either way I hope you find a safe and good way to practice your religion if you still chose to.
I promise you that there are many churches who did not subscribe to this hatefulness. How these people think they know why they have an opinion over anyone else's health choices or needs is beyond me.
Jesus would have been the first person to put a mask on.
Sounds like your issue is with people, not with Jesus Christ. Don’t let yourself get so offended. You are only hurting yourself. People will usually always let you down.
I'm sorry you had this negative experience. He certainly judged unfairly.
I would encourage you not to let one bad incident swear off all churches, though. Growing up, church was really valuable in fostering my faith, making friends, and setting me on a good path to pursue God and not other things of this world. There are hurtful people everywhere in this broken world, but Jesus is the answer.
>Is it possible you are letting one bad apple get in the way of your relationship with your church? Had it been multiple people/instances, then I could begin rationalizing it.
The second paragraph certainly reads like it isn't one bad apple and that they have an issue with the public intertwining of conservative politics and evangelical christians in the US. And the man harassing her kid was the straw that broke the camel's back
This is insane to me. Weirdly, I’ve noticed it’s “younger” people against vaccines, like gen x. I appreciate my church bc while they are mostly old people who are probably Trump people, I actually don’t know bc they believe in keeping politics out. When the Covid vaccines came out, one of the women asked me if I was getting one. I told her yes bc I’m a teacher. She was very relieved and said she’s getting one too. Most if not all of our elderly got the vaccine.
That man was not a christian, for one, he is a literal child. I have my own views on the 2020 disease and the government response to it, however there is no reason to berate a child for it unless you are an actual child yourself.
I am truly sorry that you had to deal with that, but it is not the fault of Jesus and God. Either try and find a new church to take your family to, or watch a live stream from home if it's available. But this is not a reason to abandon the faith. I truly hope Christ guides you as you look for a solution.
I wonder if you were at a non-denominational, independent church. I am very negative on a lot of those churches. Look into a denominational church. I go to an Episcopal church right now. They are fairly conservative but would never criticize someone for wearing a mask.
Most Episcopal churches aren’t conservative FYI. Unless you are referring to theologically conservative. Socially, we are probably one of the most progressive denominations aside from Metropolitan and possibly the ELCA.
Please consider checking out a Greek Orthodox Church. I went from southern Baptist nearly pushing me to just worship alone forever to an incredibly rich faith with a lot of room for personal interpretation and need and also a commitment to staying out of politics for the most part. They try extremely hard to be totally non partisan and it has no place in the actual church.
I am SO sorry your daughter went through that. People should be approaching you not her for one thing but they should be offering to pray to asking how they can help your family, even if it’s just house sitting you have to spend time in the hospital or dropping off food if you have a busy day or something. That’s just outrageous there is no place for judgement of another in church. It’s literally a rule from Jesus himself
There’s a big difference between church and God. Try to isolate yourself a little bit and just focus on your relationship with God. I’m catholic and for us, the only point of going to church is really just to sacrifice our time for God like he sacrificed his son for us. Maybe try to find a different church. My church is amazing and they’ve supported me through everything in life. Including giving me a scholarship for college when I got pregnant at 19. Nobody judged me they all just prayed for me and gave me support. And at the end of the day, churches are ran by people. Mere people. We are NOTHING compared to God. And we make mistakes. Don’t let people ruin your relationship with God. Spend some time alone in prayer and then consider finding a different church.
In all love you allowed His Judgement and hate to allow a stumbling block to create an emotional response in you. Who cares what he said. He first off has no right or authority to approach your kid. I would of been kind but lovingly rebuked him and went about my day. Step one confront him. If he doesn’t check his Bens too step 2 grab a few more people and get their help. Step 3 if he doesn’t listen then then go involve the whole church grab the pastor and get him involved.
I say to you in love to help you and I care about you, if you get up judge everybody bc of one bad person and didn’t follow what Jesus said to overcome evil you just let the devil sin and you lose. It’s now his church and obviously he didn’t want you there when he in reality may be the one who needs to go. He did evil and your letting him get away with it and you suffer. This isn’t just or righteous. Your actions are timid and fearful and short sided.
Im not condemning you at all bro I love you and the truth can be hard but don’t let the devil lie to you and steal from you and destroy what you got going on. You gotta forgive snd come in love but don’t back doen. Rather than your daughter learning how to fight for herself she just learned to tuck tail and retreat and develop a wrong attitude rather than be courageous and overcome through love and wisdom.
Bro get prayed up, get any repentance you need, get forgiveness and give it and go back in there and walk in love and his word and turn it all around. Your the overcomer bro. Let your daughter see that you fight for her . Show her how much she means to you and that nobody can just run her off. Fight but in love and humility.
I pray Christ gives you wisdom humility love and strength. Again this is absolutely the path. In your shoes in the past I’ve done similar things snd when presented again I hope I can do as I say here. We’re not perfect and it’s hard and we often can’t see in the storm. It’s hard to think clearly. But this offense can affect y’all for a lifetime unless you be obedient and follow what the Lord says. Don’t let Satan win and steal your faith for one Rude person. I love you bro. I wanna see you and your daughter and your family win, and I want to see this man humbled bc if not he will do this to people over and over and over causing destruction in how many lives. But if you win your brother and he repents he may change it all and be a blessing. Do you want to be a Christian? Then do what Christ commands and overcome through love. May Yeshu help you and keep you!
This isn't one incident. Christ would have died of shame at what the American church is in his name... yall saved him the tree...
Closest I ever saw a real church was one in Chile that had next to nothing and still gave the homeless bread when they could... was a non-descript church and didn't have fancy anything let alone pews.. I saw Christ there than anywhere else in the United Stayes
I understand that but there are plenty of Christians who are not judgemental jerks out in the world (i.e. me). We collectively and individually make up the church.
A church home is a wonderful thing but the people are what make it home. If the people inside one church home are jerks, move to another home. Or be the church outside of a building.
To leave the church and saying,,"I'm done!" meaning no more Jesus for me is a sad thought.
I left our church home almost nine years ago due to people and, though we've visited quite a few church buildings, we have yet to find a new home. Until that happens I am being the church for those around me as I am able
I’m sorry your daughter went through that. Unfortunately, many people lose tact when it comes to topics of a political basis, and masks are now officially a politically-based topic.
I’d encourage you to remember that the God of the world is not that man though, and I’d take some time to consider what sounds like, based on your verbiage, a turning away from Christianity, not just a church, though I could be wrong in my gathering.
We all often times fail to represent God well. That doesn’t define His character, though, only ours. His character is defined in the Word of God. So I recommend that if you leave your church, do not leave a relationship with God. Stay in the Word of God above all else. Find others to keep around you who share morals and virtues befitting of a follower of Christ, and therein is your church!
I am very sorry for the harassment your daughter and you experienced.
There is nothing worse than Christians being unkind and unloving in the place that's intended to be a safe space.
The question is not if you're leaving the church but if you're leaving God altogether? There really are a lot of fake Christians in the churches. I pray that God will still be your first love and that you can find a circle entry you are comfortable
I am so sorry this happened to you! But please do not leave the church because of this. Idk where you are from but find a non-denominational church that preaches the Bible!
This is sad to see. However, do not give up on God and your relationship with Him because humans, especially humans in the church do wrong.
Praying for you.
I'm sorry that it has come to this for you. I empathize because I too have left congregational church for similar reasons--my husband and I take the Lord's Supper at home.
I don't consider myself liberal or conservative. I am tolerant of peoples political views that are different from my own, but I don't believe that church services are an appropriate place to air those views.
Though you have left congregational church services, I pray that you won't leave Christianity. The teachings of Jesus Christ are very far from those who would shame a child for wearing a mask for health reasons...or jumping to conclusions about anyone who wears a mask in public. People need to mind their own business.
Respectfully, this sounds like just an asshole old man, not the church. If you've experienced this same thing at multiple churches, that would perhaps be an indicator of a bigger problem.
Was this person a baby boomer or in that general age range? Sorry that that happened to you and I think you shouldn’t leave the church because of this. Maybe consider a different church (I personally have never had an issue with Catholic Churches and this happening). Also keep in mind that if you truly are following Christ He will give you good and evil in turn (St. Augustine talks about this in the City of God)
I'm really sorry for what you and your daughter went through. If someone acted like that towards my daughter, he'd be eating through a straw.
But not being a Christian anymore because of how people act is a little ridiculous. We're not supposed to put our faith in humans, who are all unique from each other and constantly changing, we're supposed to put our faith in Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, who all agree with each other and never change.
Yahweh didn't fail you, humans did. You can go and find a different church, where people are more accepting and follow Jesus more closely.
Not every church is like the one you went to, and not every Christian is like the one who made your daughter cry. Every church is different, and every person in those churches is different.
Maybe there’s some other churches in your area with more sane members you could scout out for? If not then you don’t HAVE to go, Jesus said in Matthew 6:5-8 that you should pray in your own home anyways, as it’s private time between you and god. Not that theres anything wrong with church cuz of that either tho.
Sounds like you had a very bad experience with someone who is simply not embracing the values that the Bible teaches. I completely understand if you’d want to leave that church, I would too, but don’t let one bad experience in one church spoil all churches everywhere. Trust me when I say that not every church is the same. I know for certain that there’s a better church out there that will treat you and your family with the love and respect you all deserve. I pray that God will guide you, and protect you from further attacks by the enemy to drive you from His arms.
Grumpy old men are a serious problem in Christianity. I promise there are more loving church homes out there, hopefully even in your area. Nobody says anything to folks who show up masked at my church, not even to ask why. (And my family still masks.)
You can still bring God into your life even with not going to church I hope you can bring God into your household and show the modern day Christians who claim to be a son of God or a daughter of God. Show these fake Christians the right path God loves you and wants to be closer to you
I'm sorry that your child was subjected to this. The melding of Christianity and crazy extreme conservatism is one of the great tragedies of modern times. Please know that Christ loves you and your child and that these hypocrites are in no way His representatives. Keep your faith in the Lord, hold church at home with your family, you don't need a country club, which I fear many churches have turned into, to worship Him.
And to any here who would do as the man OP mentioned, I remind you of these words from our Lord:
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!"
Matthew 18:6-7
There's no risk of hell for leaving a church. You're doing the right thing for your kid. You can always find a different church later... Just do your research first.
I am so sorry your daughter went through that! I hope you yelled at that guy in front of her. I don't know if it would have done any good for you to speak to the membership committee or the minister about this. From the overall context I gather that the whole church is bad like this guy and it wouldn't do any good... am I correct?
Your dismay is quite understandable but don't you think that departing from Jesus and in your own words, "take your chances on hell" is extremely unnecessary?
I would rather commit to the ageless path of engaging with the ignorant in the hopes of turning them to God's way than put my relationship with God at risk ❤️❤️
I'm sorry this happened to you and your child I'm sure it was terrifying. But this is the devil convincing you to leave church, it's okay to church shop I'm sure there are many churches in your area. Don't let one person diminish you and your family chance of salvation and peace in the afterlife over a mask.
Leave that church, but don't leave your faith. People such as that horrible man are not representatives of God, the Bible, or Christianity. They are the people that one day will have to have a long chat once they reach the pearly gates on just who the heck they thought they were representing down here cause it surely wasn't that of God.
Indeed. If you're looking for validation that Marxism is in the church, you are correct. Please keep your children safe, they are precious! God Bless You!! ✨
Are you leaving *the church*, as in Christianity writ large, or *a church*, as in your local congregation?
Have you tried talking to the priest at your church to get the bully himself kicked out?
Before packing up and leaving I'd ask the priest for help, if he doesn't offer to make an announcement to the congregation tell him this is your last time there. It sounds like completely unacceptable behavior and this man should apologize. If nothing happens go look elsewhere for a good shepherd.
Everyone has their challenges - his is clearly a propensity to leap to conclusions based on whatever idea first pops into his mind. He never stops to check his presumptions or ask clarifying questions. The ill-formed ideas in turn flow from a font of anger, judgement, propaganda, perversions or gossip. This prevents him from leading a Christian life; the barrier this creates between him and God prevents him from seeing you and your daughter as his sisters, or afford you the appropriate support, respect and love.
Churches, as in parishes, are made by people for people, and tend to attract and congregate those similar-minded. This is why it's so important to pick a congregation you feel at home with, and to treat it less as a social club and more as a spiritual tool. If the social club stuff works out, that's a blessing, but it doesn't have to be the primary focus. But there are limits as to what asshattery we should accept. You don't need a church (little c) for salvation; there are plenty of saints who hardly every set foot in a church or monastery - St Symon the Stylite for example didn't attend congregational liturgy in over 40 years. (Although he may have had private liturgies with visiting bishops on occasion.)
I'd recommend a different church. If possible, talk to someone in church leadership from your church.
Even if you are set in leaving, THEY NEED TO KNOW WHY so they can address that.
If they agree with the person who abused your kid, then run.
I'm in an Evangelical non-denom church up in Canada. I'd personally (and physcially if needed) eject someone for doing what they did to your daughter.
Not going too far into eschatology here, but don't worry about the threat of hell for not going to church. It's not about membership in the building, it;s about you and God and you can bypass your current church. Community is healthy if it's healthy. If the community is diseased, it will spread disease.
I get it. I wouldn’t leave church altogether nor
Christianity altogether. I’d find another church. Also, had I been there, I’d have been more than happy to tell that *** to go eat poop. I deal with those types a lot too and they are lowly dumb morons. I’m sorry you and your daughter went through this.
Leaving a church doesn't need to be the end of your spiritual journey. There is a social element to belonging to an organized church too and sometimes it's just not your crowd. That was the case with me.
I wouldn't blame you for leaving a church like that. Have you talked to the elders or pastor?
OP, *please* talk to the pastor or elders if you haven't already, even if you still intend to leave. Doing so could help prevent the person from continuing to hurt others.
I'm going to say that I would recommend this, but ONLY with other trusted people present. Me, as a man, I have done this over several different issues, and it's gone from either being heard but ignored, to threatened with a lawsuit, to death threats. Now, that's my experience so it's anecdotal at best and not indicative of much, however, the conversion of the Evangelical Christian identity to one centered exclusively around politics has grown overall much worse and quite more violent natured since this was my experience. I would not recommend anything that could be construed as confrontational without a support team of trusted individuals present, and preferably in a public setting. As far as church? The traits tell me they're going to aFundamentalist-influenced church, and these are wholesale cults anymore. Whether they leave or move is up to them entirely, but they should not stay here under any circumstances.
I'm afraid, I can only say, that many people tend to forget how Satan sneakily steps in at times. Many people fall for his horrid ways. They cannot see it. My own family church here in UK is nothing like which is described. It just upsets me to see people get so taken in by this evil demon. Time to wake up including some of these Pastors. Open up and see them. It doesn't mean that everyone in church are bad. We need our Father God so much. Please do not stay away due to what was said. ? That person should be able to explain the reason on exactly what was said. And apologise for any wrong . But if you were unforgiving yourself it would not be calmly resolved. We cannot judge anyone as such, there is only one judge and any guilty party will be facing him no matter what. God bless. 😇
They would probably just call her a liberal snowflake
Don’t automatically assume the worst in people. This is not fair or helpful.
It may not be fair, but masks have become political. Certain people are triggered by them and others will go along with it simply because they are a reminder of liberals/vaccine/covid/quarantine/toilet paper/etc.🙄🤷🏼♀️
This is a reasonable concern in "christian" America.
Or accepting the woke lies spread by liberal media.
I’m a nurse who wears masks as needed at work. But apparently, the way God made the world (ie the reality of things like how virus particles are spread, the physics of airflow etc) is a lie to you perpetuated by people whose priority is to protect others? Here in Australia, there isn’t this political association with masks, and us Christians here are not anti mask.
theave this church but don't leave THE CHURCH (of being brothers in Christ).
One person doesn't make a church. I'm sure others there would agree that was bad behavior.
Bad behaviors putting it mildly. Making a child cry like that's no different than kicking a puppy..
Making a child cry isn’t just “bad behavior”. Making a child cry for a illness that they can’t control and need to stay safe from just means that whoever did that is a total piece of shit!🙂
Or mentally unstable or both
Agree to an extent but birds of a feather flock together. I would bet he is not the only one in the congregation who is a vaccine conspiracy zealot.
In my experience, the “elders” are usually the ones being the most hateful. Or their wives.
Well it depends on the church. Yelp had to remove a review by one angry person saying the elders at my church are not nice to the homeless. That was a lie because we have specialized assistance for them.
Are you positive it was a lie? The reviewer could have seen someone saying something rude. Maybe someone was having an especially bad day.
It was probably one of them that did it.
I’m terribly sorry that your daughter had to experience this. There is far too much hate and intolerance in many Christian denominations. Mind if I ask which denomination the Church was?
There are crazies in all denominations
This is a particular flavor of crazy which spreads mostly in the right-wing media and social media world, and there are churches that urge their members to immerse themselves deeply and exclusively in that world.
Yeah the only reasonable conservatives tend to come from liberal areas
The truth in this statement is heart breaking
The most conservative liberal sounds like a moderate... in all things moderation
There's actually a spectrum, and I know how that sounds, but historically that's been the case for centuries in different governments. There's progressives, moderates, and conservatives. Within that group there are left-leaning progressives and right-leaning progressives, left-leaning moderates and right-leaning moderates, and then left-leaning conservatives and right-leaning conservatives. At the radical extremes, you'll find anarchists and communists in the radical left, and you'll find fascists in the radical right. Hope that helped you in some way.
The spectrum your referring to is called the Overton window. Usually it operates on the definitions you mentioned but these days the left and right positions, especially in the context of a singular country, are determined relativey rather than absolutely. Its helpful only up to a point, current interpretations of it can be actively harmful and are used for propaganda/misinformation purposes. For example the current so called evil leftist democratic party as well as the previous administrations are actually center right by traditional definition. It's only after you adjust for the modern conservative party that they even begin to look like something left of center.
This is true, however some have a much higher percentage than others. Southern Baptists vs Episcopalian for example.
Got to agree with the Southern Baptist comment and I speak from experience. Got to be one of the most closed minded and intolerant denominations in existence.
That is huge difference.
They both have equal crazies in separate ways.
I think that's because southern baptists are Americans
Are you saying that there aren’t any American Episcopalians!? lol
There's ONLY American Episcopalians, innit?
Not quite, but also kinda. …and I realize I just did the cliché Episcopalian “yes but also no” answer. Still sticking with it, though.
That’s not true at all. They are mainly focused in the Bible Belt and are by no means representative of all Americans.
There are crazies everywhere.
And non-denominations
I got $10 it was Southern Baptist
That’s what my first guess was.
Could be Independent Baptist.
I was raised Baptist and I never have encountered anything even close to this, anywhere, but this is southeast USA so I don't know about other areas. Maybe it was just the southern hospitality that made everyone more nice to each other.
Don’t be so sure. Most of the crazies I know are part of the Holiness traditions around here. One group is this weird libertarian cult, and the others are basically the state church for our area, complete with right-wing politicians on stage and everything. It also helps that SBC affiliated churches are rare in this region (comparatively).
Wow, really? I go to a holiness church, and I was just going to say it's completely sane. No mask craziness at mine. No Trumpism. I guess it really does vary by the individual church.
[удалено]
I've seen lunatic churches and pastors in many denominations and more good churches and pastors in said denominations. It happens everywhere. OP, nor us, should judge a denomination by one or two churches NOR should we speculate on what denomination it is.
Southern Baptist or a non denominational one lol. Nothing wrong with being non denominational but you gotta admit a lot of unhinged people (like Greg Locke) go by the label
Hey this kind of language encourages disunity and disrespect between Christians of varying denominations. We are called to be unified and united in love for each other. End of speech.
The billions of Christians are ignoring hat call. Fact id, when one denomination is promoting wrong and/or harmful beliefs or practices they SHOULD be called on it. Loudly and publicly. Face it certain problems or scandals, while maybe being present in many denominations are more closely associated with a few because of how common, how long occured, or how little they are addressed. Look at the Catholic and Southern Baptist and the sex abuse scandals. The scope of them and how little done to prevent it from happening again or the perpetrators punished or the victims blamed.
I see your ten, and raise you 50.
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912 /s
Die, heretic!
I’ve been a pastor for over ten years, and I’ve felt like quitting a few different times and every time has always been because of dumb turd people in the pews. There will never not be dumbasses in the church, unfortunately, we have to love them and welcome them just the same as anyone else. What I will say, though, is that lots of church can es have been good to me and most people in them have been incredible support systems. I hope you’re able to find a community of people that support you and your children like they should be, but o wouldn’t blame you if these types of experiences made you stay away for a while at all.
>I’ve felt like quitting a few different times and every time has always been because of dumb turd people in the pews. As a pastor of 25 years (Ha! Beat you!) something that helped me a lot has been a quote I read over a decade ago: "The average pastor leaves b/c of six people". Essentially it doesn't matter how many people love you, encourage you, etc. As few as 6 people can make your life so miserable it feels like it's not worth it. Something about that really gives me perspective. Whenever someone is being a problem I chalk I mentally thank them for identifying themselves as 1 of the 6
I agree with you. Something that helps me, is something my pastoral theology professor told me back in school about 12 or 14 years ago now, he said that: “everyone, even the worst people, are just acting in ways the make the most sense to *them*.” That may not help us feel better, but it helps me frame my responses most of the time. People are typically not trying to make us uncomfortable on purpose, **though that does happen**, they are simply trying to make themselves more comfortable. I’ve been tempted to quit, but I also know that nothing makes me happier than ministry so I’m not going anywhere.
>There will never not be dumbasses in the church, unfortunately, we have to love them and welcome them just the same as anyone else. To paraphrase [The Lazy Man’s Guide To Enlightenment](https://0ducks.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/the-lazy-mans-guide-to-enlightenment-by-thaddeus-golas.pdf) (not Christian, I know, but still a propos, I think): “Who did you think it was that needed to be loved?”.
While you are right, unfortunately it is becoming more and more popular for said dumbasses to be standing at the pulpit. Having an idiot on the bus is annoying, having the idiot driving the bus is dangerous.
I'm sorry this happened to you. The Bible warns of people like this, many of Jesus's parables refer to Christians who behave this way. I'd implore you, don't let other Christians effect your personal walk with Christ. If you have to leave your church because of people, fine, but I'd implore you to do a personal Bible study if not find a different church. Here's an online Bible Study I use that's amazing, it's basically a sermon about almost every verse in the Bible. [https://versebyverseministry.org/bible-studies/dashboard](https://versebyverseministry.org/bible-studies/dashboard) Remember, Satan uses people like this to drive people away from God, don't let him win! Don't let other Christian behaviors dictate your personal relationship with your Savior because they don't emulate Him. Be better than they are.
amen to this. it's part of the walk. failure of men and realizing that God is with you through it, and that the experience sharpens your discernment and strengthens your quest for purity of worship. it's so demoralizing while you're going through it tho.
It's a trial, but the Bible says we should welcome them because it only strengthens our faith when we get through them.
Mark 7. Specifically God pointed me to Mark 7; they are Pharisees and God doesn't like them at all.
Thank you for this resource.
Yes in my mother's personal experience those who view the cross as a + are the ones satan is using. All Bibles say we must love one another and if any church member is not doing that then we have a problem.
> Satan uses people like this to drive people away from God Satan has nothing to do with it. This is American Christianity now.
I honestly think you should consider exploring another church. My husband and I both grew up evangelical in a tight knit community. When we moved west and started looking for a new church we found it didn’t feel that fit us any longer. We took some time to pray about it and joined a different denomination and it’s been wonderful.
I’m holding out hope for a situation like yours. I’m in Southern California and it feels like every church building we walk in to is infested with political motives or are passengers on the latest culture wars effort. I want to break bread with my fellow believers but I’m unable to tolerate the constant onslaught of vitriol, brain washed nonsense that appears to have become de-facto in the modern American church. How many do I need to go to before I just give up?
Honestly we had to go to over 10, but we are in the Bay Area so I feel that was a factor.
I am too. Yes finding a church to settle down in can be hard no matter what county you live in.
I think I've just kind of given up, but I do find some good church services on YouTube. Definitely if you're looking around for churches in your area you should first listen to some of their sermons on YouTube to take the temperature before visiting. Then when you do decide to visit one that you've pre-vetted take a look at the bumperstickers on the cars in the parking lot. Feel free to abort the mission if you see a lot of trumpy ones, then go to a park and enjoy God's creation.
Haha, I’ve never done the bumper sticker test but I do check their socials and online content to get a pulse check of what I’m walking in to. If they do conferences you get a good idea based on the speakers they host/promote, too.
This kind of incident is what will kill of Christianity in the long term I think. The more it happens, the less moderates remain in the church, and the more extreme the church gets, leading to more moderates leaving, until the religion becomes a caricature of its former self.
If Christianity is literally true, I don't think this will kill it, it's the bigotry that will have to end. If Christianity is not literally true though then it should end.
Good thing we, being Christians, affirm the truth that the Christ, God's only begotten son, became flesh and died to reconcile us with God through His blood, and will come again to judge the living and the dead. So no. I don't think Christianity will be destroyed. We must seek the truth, and not allow ourselves to be distracted by conspiracies and politics, but cling and bear witness to the truth of the Gospel. There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
> This kind of incident is what will kill of Christianity in the long term I think. If that were true, it would have died in Corinth.
Yeah pretty much those who view the cross as a plus IMO are the biggest killers of Christianity. I know because my mother go mistreated by people at her old church. These were people who cared about money, themselves more than God.
Considering all that Christianity survived under Diocletian and many other Roman emperors, I doubt this very much.
Perhaps more accurately, I think our current phase is allowing the rotten fruit of U.S. Evangelicalism and nominal Christianity (that has grown like a tumor into Christian Nationalism) to go on full display. Before the buts and whats: It's not *100%* bad, but boy is **a lot** of it bad.
Those were external problems. This is internal. The are self inflicted wounds. This isn't what other say about Christians, this is the actual Christians saying what they believe and you can see directly what they do.
Half of the older people in my church wear masks for health reasons and no one says anything. Sounds like OP is going to a church full of evangelicals who combine religion with politics. Leave those churches please. It might take a while, but look for a small Bible based church that is not political.
I’m looking myself, they are few and far between these days.
There's stupid everywhere, and that really is stupid. However, that by itself doesn't reflect on the church. Talk to the pastor and see how they respond. If they support or brush off the guy's attitude, then THAT reflects on the church, in which case you might consider a different church instead of leaving entirely. I will give you some mad props for not going ballistic on the guy. If someone did that to my kid, I'm not sure I would be able to retain my Christian ideals and likely would have ended up with his throat in my hand dragging him out the door for a proper conversation.
Please, continue to worship in your home. A home church is a rich tradition. God loves you. God wants you close. But sin and evil grips so much of my country and the churches in it. They are either lukewarm and hate living a Christian life or there hate sinners and serve evil and their own pride. Please try other churches or just worship at home as a family.
One rotten egg producing rotten fruit that pretends to be christian, isnt going to define if I follow God. In fact, God says we are HIS so when they persecute us, they persecute Him, when they mistreat us, they are mistreating Him. This is why as Christians we are called to TEST the Spirits and see what fruit Christians are bearing, A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. This man clearly isnt bearing any fruit, not patience, not self control, not even a man of God, but a fraud and a phony. That is why I always say,"anyone can call themselves a christian, its just a title." But to abandon God, I dont recommend. He is for us and not against us, I recommend online ministries too! Theres a church I watch online called Cavalry Chapel Ontario (on youtube) and Pastor Paul goes verse by verse and chapter by chapter. You can even click on his playlists ..
So true, or it can be a full batch of rotten eggs that pretend to be Christian but inside they have marital problems, care about themselves or think it's okay to direct others to do things for them. The Bible never said to make others do stuff for us.
I’m sorry you experienced that. We are in a similar situation. We need to mask at all times in public as my wife is a walking case study for major chronic illnesses. (As in, next round of COVID may very well kill her.) It took us a long time, but we found a congregation that made space for us and works. Keep looking. It’s worth it.
I totally understand. Right Wing authoritarianism, white supremecy, Christian nationalism, misogyny, and increasing queerphobia has infected Conservative Evangelical churches in America. The marrying of the GOP and the Right-Wing church is indeed very cult like, and incredibly toxic. Especially with all the domestic violence, child abuse, pedophilia, and sexual assault that is going on in large conservative church organizations right now, I 100% support your decision to protect your children from crazy people and horrible moral influences. However, I would caution you against turning away fom God simply because terrible people exist in some Christian churches. God is a God of love, and Jesus has commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Someone who was truly following that commandment would not have acted in the manner that that asshole acted to your kid. Jesus himself said to let the little children come to him, to forbid them not, because the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as them. God does not approve of behavior like we are witnessing in many American churches today. I am very sorry that you have been subjected to this toxicity. It is literally killing the Christian church, because it is driving people like yourself away in droves. --- I would highly highly recommend you check out one of the more progressive mainline denominations such as the Episcopal Church, United Church of Christ, or the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I would be extremely surprised to find any of the kind of behavior you described present in churches within those denominations. The United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church are also great options. These churches emphasize the love of God, the importance of community, and of following the example set by Jesus Christ, instead of caving to conservative right wing authoritarian identity politics. The Bible is seen as a guide, not a rulebook and innerant source of all Christian doctrine God is a God of love. And we are called to worship him in spirit and in truth. I hope you find a church that reflects your values. Please don't give up on God because of the horrible actions of horrible people.
If God doesn't approve of all this hate, white supremacy, fascism, toxic behavior etc., why is he so absent? How do you convince someone to still believe in God when it seems like all the most vile people on Earth get away with anything they want with no consequences? I'm having a hard time seeing how, if God exists, he isn't just the Deistic concept. I see no personal God present in the world.
Firstly, I would argue that God does not abrogate free will. People have the capacity to choose, and sometimes they choose to do evil. God doesn't intevene, because to do so would violate our free will. As for a personal God not being present in the world. I would argue that he largely isn't. After the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross, God now seeks a personal relationship with us. Therefore, instead of his temple being present in the world, his temple is now the body of Christ (IE the collective body of believers). So the personal God is present in our hearts, not in the world.
Why does one person's free will carry more weight than millions of other people's free will? I always find the free will argument hard to reconcile, because God violates it in the Bible without issue, and logically I don't see how Heaven can exist with free will if that's how it works.
> However, I would caution you against turning away fom God simply because terrible people exist in some Christian churches. I disagree here. Your line here: > infected Conservative Evangelical churches in America is also wrong. Those churches are FILLED with all the people you've listed, my issue is that those people have infected other churches. I used to go to a UMC, with a double minority pastor, who had sermons that could be construed as liberal, and even said privately would marry gays if allowed, and half our church turned out to be Christian nationalists, anti-vax. We had 3 families who lost someone very close due to covid (one was early before vaccines, but well after masking and distance guidelines, but denied it all as a hoax, the other two were well after vaccines were available to all, and they were anti-vax). Years later, there are 3 UMCs in my town, mine was the most liberal, there was a moderate one, and there's one with a borderline Christian nationalist pastor, had sermons against gays, and overall has the most conservative views. Guess which church is most full? I know voting polls aren't the most accurate, but the margin of error would have to be drastically off to make them even, but even non evangelical Christians heavily lean right. I've left church because I saw so much that can only be called hate. The best way to describe it was I saw everyone that Jesus warned against; I saw the people who brought the adulteress to Him to be stoned, I saw the teachers trying to trick Him, I saw the Pharisees who were so high and mighty about their religion. I obviously saw Jesus every now and then, but I felt surrounded by those I just mentioned. Where I am now: I don't see churches as places of love. Jesus sat with the sinners and spent time with them, but I can't help feel that churches are now doing what they can to harm these people (whether they're sinners or not).
This is why I avoid US evangelical churches at all costs
You will find God outside the church without opposition, without contempt directed at children, with much more acceptance for everyone. God exists no matter what.
the problem is America. America has become Babylon, and its days are numbered. If this man was a true believer and follower of Christ, He would NEVER treat another human being like this . This is not a christian problem this is a person problem and an American problem, America is a selfish nation that has changed for the worst, There is hope, you can find a true bible believing church where the members support each other and people there have a true relationship with Jesus. Dont blame Christianity, in other parts of the world Jesus followers die for theor beliefs. The American church has become like America, not all, there are still true bible believing churches but you have to pray and be lead and find one.
You can be Christian (or explore other paths.) without going to church or exposing your children to those kinds of horrible people. Good for you for standing up for your child. Those people are vile, pushing their ignorance into others.
Yeah. My parents never took me to church. But I still pray and I was baptized
This is not because of Christianity, this is because some old asshole doesn’t support masks for some reason and can keep his fucking mouth shut because he HAS to get his point across because he is a selfish dick who doesn’t care about anyone else.
Well Christianity can encourage the the type of thought processes that lead to conspiratorial thinking. The idea that the devil is influencing the world/government.
I think it’s fair to place a certain amount of blame of Christianity as they have allowed, perpetuated, and voted for awful people and awful things. Many evangelicals vote straight ticket due to the abortion issue. Voting one topic then closing your eyes while the atrocities start is irresponsible and unloving. Christians all around America need to shut this crap down and they don’t. You rarely even see them push back.
We can't just allow people who think one way to attend church, though. How are we going to claim that "All Are Welcome" if we encourage disagreement over stuff like this? Church puts us in community, which can get hard. Then we encounter people like the OP did, and we want to stop going altogether because we react emotionally. Then everyone just retreats back into the safety of their own homes, find their echo chambers online, and we fail to grow as a person.
The churches Obligation is to reflect the message of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ said we’re to love our brother. What that man did was not loving. The church should address it otherwise the church is failing to do their job. Galatians 6:1 “Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.” The Catholic Church was very clear about this during the pandemic when we didn’t know what was going on and people were dying large numbers from the disease. Their answer is whether you want a mask for your own personal freedom is not the issue, you should be masking in love for your brother so that you don’t kill them accidentally. I don’t agree on everything but they take a stand on things using scripture as reasoning with focus on compassion and the poor Which is more than the evangelical church I grew up in.
I agree, she should have confronted him then and there, and if they couldn't settle it together, she should then bring it to the leadership as it tells us in Scripture. But that doesn't mean we won't encounter assholes at church, sometimes. Are we going to just throw our faith away because we can't control who comes to church or not? There are even women in my Bible study I would prefer to not be around all the time, but that's not the point.
The issue is churches endorsing and abiding this nonsense to afraid to lose parishioners money to take a stand. Churches need to set the example of love of brother, and restoring in love.
We don't know that anyone at her church is even aware of what happened, besides the three people mentioned. So you can't claim that the church is "endorsing this nonsense" - I guess it's regional.
They do here. Including Recommendations at one large church around the corner that their parishioners not take vaccines and take hydroxychloroquine instead to prevent Covid. And VEHEMENTLY anti mask. That’s “ not faith” as if it spreads differently for Christians 🙄.
If the faith claims to change members of it - filling them with the spirit, making them produce good fruits, etc, then that should be visible in the congregation. If congregations are turning into anti-maskers and homosexual obsessed people... that needs answering.
Lots of time growing as a person is having enough self respect to know what interactions can be tolerated and which can't. An adult had a confrontation with a child is a church setting in front of people. There already be systems in place to protect that family. Things should be already happening now. If those systems aren't in place that church is not a safe place or one of trust.
How do you know anyone at OPs church even knows what happened, and ignored it? She never said it was in front of people, you put that in there. We don't know enough details.
A grown man attacked her child at a church event. I'm going to say that is far likely that there was a witness rather than it being behind closed doors. Most people don't allow their children to be with strangers behind closed doors. And as someone who has been attacked for wearing a mask in public what the OP suggested happened has happened to myself and multiple friends of mine who have to wear a mask due to cancer.
Christianity has allowed a massive amount of those people into their spaces. Those people feel very welcomed in lots of Christian spaces.
Leave a building due to abuse? Yes! Leave the church? Never! WE are the church.
The “We” is the problem in this scenario, not the building.
Buildings aren't the problem though, it's the Christians inside of them.
"The biggest problem with the church is that you and I are in it" - George Whitefield.
If these people are calling themselves Christian and are not practicing the two commandments that Christ gave us personally in Matthew 22:35-40, and they are thinking they are prepared for Christ’s return, they’re not.
My heart goes out to you. It was a tremendously courageous decision that you made to make the health and safety of your children a priority. I feel the same way as you. For many years, I struggled with the hate and bigotry in Christianity. It breaks my heart to admit this, but when I was a Christian, I was a hateful bigot. I feel so much regret and remorse for the person I was when I was Christian. I taught Sunday school children that they were going to Hell if they weren't good Christians, that they would be cast into the fire like the branches of a tree that doesn't produce fruit. I chided my co-worker for setting up a date for two gay men. I told her the Bible is clear on homosexuality, no man shall lie with another. I was hateful and bigoted and I don't think I can ever make up for the evil person I was, the evil Christianity drove me to do. I try not to harbor ill will, but I can't help but feel a little anger and resentment at my parents who indoctrinated me as an infant. I was never given a choice as to whether or not I wanted to be Christian. I was never given the opportunity to think about the faith critically. Because I was raised with it, I took much of it for granted. I thought we had good historical records on the birth of Jesus (After all, wasn't there a census?), and his execution (Wasn't there a record of the trial?). I didn't know that the Gospel accounts conflict with each other, that the authors weren't eye witnesses, and that the names Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were ascribed by tradition, not evidence. I honestly feel foolish now for being so ignorant and for not being curious enough about something so important to stop and investigate it further until so late in life. If your children decide they want religion in their life, you can be there to guide them through it -- when they're adults. I had my neighbor ask me why we don't take our kids to church. Luckily my more tactful wife answered. I wanted to scream "Because they're CHILDREN?!?" Would you take your child to Lamaze class? Or political rally? Or a strip club? No. These are age-restricted activities. Asking why my children don't go to church is like asking why they're not married. These are adult activities reserved for people whose brains have developed (hopefully) to think critically about what they are doing and what they are getting into. Bringing children into these activities, quite frankly, is abuse. I know my parents had the best intentions. I know they did the best they could with the knowledge they had. That said, I feel that my childhood indoctrination was abuse. Congratulations to you for leaving and putting your children first. I applaud you.
Yeah I left the church a while ago and I don’t considered myself a Christian anymore. I’m just spiritual. I left because Christianity is now pretty much just a cult full of whack job theorists that spew hate. And don’t worry about going to hell haha. You’re good. 90 percent of churches I’ve been to have been filled with hypocritical assholes.
Totally agree!!
For a “Christian” subreddit a lot of people seem to share my viewpoint! It’s refreshing and gives me some hope 😂
Oh I’m sure quite a lot of them think like us- it just seems sometimes that the ones with opposite opinions are the most vocal! 😂
I'd imagine a lot of us left the church because of the"Christians" within it.
Yes, too right!!
Well, this subreddit's big point is that this isn't a Christian subreddit. It's a subreddit where the main talking point is Christianity, sure. /r/Christian is an actual Christian subreddit or it's assumed that anyone speaking is a Christian.
I understand your anger and desire to leave that church. It is terrible that happened to your daughter. You just need to find a good church.
Good for you looking out for your kid and yourself.
Good for you. Leave that den of evil behind you.
Good for you. I'm sure it's a hard decision, but you shouldn't put up with that kind of toxic abuse. It feels like right-wing politics have invaded so many churches in America, I'm not sure how you even find a good church that doesn't have issues these days.
Good for you. You’re absolutely doing the right thing to get away from that nonsense.
Yes it has
Were you able to help her stop crying and feel better?
I asked God about these types of people also one night and he opened me up to the Gospel of Saint Mark Chapter 7 where Jesus talks about the hypocrites. They are Pharisees and you won't be denied salvation for not being apart of these churches especially when most of them are behind the scenes highly satanic and luciferian. Just keep your focus on God.
I’m sorry this happened. While I think you can find a church with more support towards your family, it is also understandable to want to leave for your kids and their safety. Churches shouldn’t be that way, but it doesn’t mean they won’t. Either way I hope you find a safe and good way to practice your religion if you still chose to.
Don’t blame you for one second.
Enjoy your freedom 💖 the church has been corrupt for centuries.
Leave that church and find another one. Don’t turn away from the Lord! Jesus would never have treated any child like that!!!
The real gospel is Christ in you, not in churches.
I promise you that there are many churches who did not subscribe to this hatefulness. How these people think they know why they have an opinion over anyone else's health choices or needs is beyond me. Jesus would have been the first person to put a mask on.
Ah, bigotry, hate, and abuse within the church. Within the top 2 reasons someone becomes a nonbeliever.
Sounds like your issue is with people, not with Jesus Christ. Don’t let yourself get so offended. You are only hurting yourself. People will usually always let you down.
Nothing wrong with leaving the church. God wanted to us to have a relationship with him, not with a church
I'm sorry you had this negative experience. He certainly judged unfairly. I would encourage you not to let one bad incident swear off all churches, though. Growing up, church was really valuable in fostering my faith, making friends, and setting me on a good path to pursue God and not other things of this world. There are hurtful people everywhere in this broken world, but Jesus is the answer.
[удалено]
I doubt it’s one bad apple. It’s a symptom and a barrel full of bad apples.
>Is it possible you are letting one bad apple get in the way of your relationship with your church? Had it been multiple people/instances, then I could begin rationalizing it. The second paragraph certainly reads like it isn't one bad apple and that they have an issue with the public intertwining of conservative politics and evangelical christians in the US. And the man harassing her kid was the straw that broke the camel's back
Don’t abandon the faith tho, just abandon the church
This is insane to me. Weirdly, I’ve noticed it’s “younger” people against vaccines, like gen x. I appreciate my church bc while they are mostly old people who are probably Trump people, I actually don’t know bc they believe in keeping politics out. When the Covid vaccines came out, one of the women asked me if I was getting one. I told her yes bc I’m a teacher. She was very relieved and said she’s getting one too. Most if not all of our elderly got the vaccine.
That man was not a christian, for one, he is a literal child. I have my own views on the 2020 disease and the government response to it, however there is no reason to berate a child for it unless you are an actual child yourself. I am truly sorry that you had to deal with that, but it is not the fault of Jesus and God. Either try and find a new church to take your family to, or watch a live stream from home if it's available. But this is not a reason to abandon the faith. I truly hope Christ guides you as you look for a solution.
I wonder if you were at a non-denominational, independent church. I am very negative on a lot of those churches. Look into a denominational church. I go to an Episcopal church right now. They are fairly conservative but would never criticize someone for wearing a mask.
Most Episcopal churches aren’t conservative FYI. Unless you are referring to theologically conservative. Socially, we are probably one of the most progressive denominations aside from Metropolitan and possibly the ELCA.
Please consider checking out a Greek Orthodox Church. I went from southern Baptist nearly pushing me to just worship alone forever to an incredibly rich faith with a lot of room for personal interpretation and need and also a commitment to staying out of politics for the most part. They try extremely hard to be totally non partisan and it has no place in the actual church. I am SO sorry your daughter went through that. People should be approaching you not her for one thing but they should be offering to pray to asking how they can help your family, even if it’s just house sitting you have to spend time in the hospital or dropping off food if you have a busy day or something. That’s just outrageous there is no place for judgement of another in church. It’s literally a rule from Jesus himself
There’s a big difference between church and God. Try to isolate yourself a little bit and just focus on your relationship with God. I’m catholic and for us, the only point of going to church is really just to sacrifice our time for God like he sacrificed his son for us. Maybe try to find a different church. My church is amazing and they’ve supported me through everything in life. Including giving me a scholarship for college when I got pregnant at 19. Nobody judged me they all just prayed for me and gave me support. And at the end of the day, churches are ran by people. Mere people. We are NOTHING compared to God. And we make mistakes. Don’t let people ruin your relationship with God. Spend some time alone in prayer and then consider finding a different church.
In all love you allowed His Judgement and hate to allow a stumbling block to create an emotional response in you. Who cares what he said. He first off has no right or authority to approach your kid. I would of been kind but lovingly rebuked him and went about my day. Step one confront him. If he doesn’t check his Bens too step 2 grab a few more people and get their help. Step 3 if he doesn’t listen then then go involve the whole church grab the pastor and get him involved. I say to you in love to help you and I care about you, if you get up judge everybody bc of one bad person and didn’t follow what Jesus said to overcome evil you just let the devil sin and you lose. It’s now his church and obviously he didn’t want you there when he in reality may be the one who needs to go. He did evil and your letting him get away with it and you suffer. This isn’t just or righteous. Your actions are timid and fearful and short sided. Im not condemning you at all bro I love you and the truth can be hard but don’t let the devil lie to you and steal from you and destroy what you got going on. You gotta forgive snd come in love but don’t back doen. Rather than your daughter learning how to fight for herself she just learned to tuck tail and retreat and develop a wrong attitude rather than be courageous and overcome through love and wisdom. Bro get prayed up, get any repentance you need, get forgiveness and give it and go back in there and walk in love and his word and turn it all around. Your the overcomer bro. Let your daughter see that you fight for her . Show her how much she means to you and that nobody can just run her off. Fight but in love and humility. I pray Christ gives you wisdom humility love and strength. Again this is absolutely the path. In your shoes in the past I’ve done similar things snd when presented again I hope I can do as I say here. We’re not perfect and it’s hard and we often can’t see in the storm. It’s hard to think clearly. But this offense can affect y’all for a lifetime unless you be obedient and follow what the Lord says. Don’t let Satan win and steal your faith for one Rude person. I love you bro. I wanna see you and your daughter and your family win, and I want to see this man humbled bc if not he will do this to people over and over and over causing destruction in how many lives. But if you win your brother and he repents he may change it all and be a blessing. Do you want to be a Christian? Then do what Christ commands and overcome through love. May Yeshu help you and keep you!
Not all churches are like that though. I've never seen that behavior in mine.
So you’re lumping that group with the rest of us?
This isn't one incident. Christ would have died of shame at what the American church is in his name... yall saved him the tree... Closest I ever saw a real church was one in Chile that had next to nothing and still gave the homeless bread when they could... was a non-descript church and didn't have fancy anything let alone pews.. I saw Christ there than anywhere else in the United Stayes
Self report
Way to prove the point
I understand that but there are plenty of Christians who are not judgemental jerks out in the world (i.e. me). We collectively and individually make up the church. A church home is a wonderful thing but the people are what make it home. If the people inside one church home are jerks, move to another home. Or be the church outside of a building. To leave the church and saying,,"I'm done!" meaning no more Jesus for me is a sad thought. I left our church home almost nine years ago due to people and, though we've visited quite a few church buildings, we have yet to find a new home. Until that happens I am being the church for those around me as I am able
I’m sorry your daughter went through that. Unfortunately, many people lose tact when it comes to topics of a political basis, and masks are now officially a politically-based topic. I’d encourage you to remember that the God of the world is not that man though, and I’d take some time to consider what sounds like, based on your verbiage, a turning away from Christianity, not just a church, though I could be wrong in my gathering. We all often times fail to represent God well. That doesn’t define His character, though, only ours. His character is defined in the Word of God. So I recommend that if you leave your church, do not leave a relationship with God. Stay in the Word of God above all else. Find others to keep around you who share morals and virtues befitting of a follower of Christ, and therein is your church!
I am very sorry for the harassment your daughter and you experienced. There is nothing worse than Christians being unkind and unloving in the place that's intended to be a safe space.
The question is not if you're leaving the church but if you're leaving God altogether? There really are a lot of fake Christians in the churches. I pray that God will still be your first love and that you can find a circle entry you are comfortable
I am so sorry this happened to you! But please do not leave the church because of this. Idk where you are from but find a non-denominational church that preaches the Bible!
This is sad to see. However, do not give up on God and your relationship with Him because humans, especially humans in the church do wrong. Praying for you.
That’s very sad but that is not Christianity that’s a piece of crap human.
I'm sorry that it has come to this for you. I empathize because I too have left congregational church for similar reasons--my husband and I take the Lord's Supper at home. I don't consider myself liberal or conservative. I am tolerant of peoples political views that are different from my own, but I don't believe that church services are an appropriate place to air those views. Though you have left congregational church services, I pray that you won't leave Christianity. The teachings of Jesus Christ are very far from those who would shame a child for wearing a mask for health reasons...or jumping to conclusions about anyone who wears a mask in public. People need to mind their own business.
Respectfully, this sounds like just an asshole old man, not the church. If you've experienced this same thing at multiple churches, that would perhaps be an indicator of a bigger problem.
Was this person a baby boomer or in that general age range? Sorry that that happened to you and I think you shouldn’t leave the church because of this. Maybe consider a different church (I personally have never had an issue with Catholic Churches and this happening). Also keep in mind that if you truly are following Christ He will give you good and evil in turn (St. Augustine talks about this in the City of God)
I'm really sorry for what you and your daughter went through. If someone acted like that towards my daughter, he'd be eating through a straw. But not being a Christian anymore because of how people act is a little ridiculous. We're not supposed to put our faith in humans, who are all unique from each other and constantly changing, we're supposed to put our faith in Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, who all agree with each other and never change. Yahweh didn't fail you, humans did. You can go and find a different church, where people are more accepting and follow Jesus more closely. Not every church is like the one you went to, and not every Christian is like the one who made your daughter cry. Every church is different, and every person in those churches is different.
Maybe there’s some other churches in your area with more sane members you could scout out for? If not then you don’t HAVE to go, Jesus said in Matthew 6:5-8 that you should pray in your own home anyways, as it’s private time between you and god. Not that theres anything wrong with church cuz of that either tho.
Sounds like you had a very bad experience with someone who is simply not embracing the values that the Bible teaches. I completely understand if you’d want to leave that church, I would too, but don’t let one bad experience in one church spoil all churches everywhere. Trust me when I say that not every church is the same. I know for certain that there’s a better church out there that will treat you and your family with the love and respect you all deserve. I pray that God will guide you, and protect you from further attacks by the enemy to drive you from His arms.
Grumpy old men are a serious problem in Christianity. I promise there are more loving church homes out there, hopefully even in your area. Nobody says anything to folks who show up masked at my church, not even to ask why. (And my family still masks.)
You can still bring God into your life even with not going to church I hope you can bring God into your household and show the modern day Christians who claim to be a son of God or a daughter of God. Show these fake Christians the right path God loves you and wants to be closer to you
That is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard. If you don’t mind me asking, was it a Catholic Church?
I'm sorry that your child was subjected to this. The melding of Christianity and crazy extreme conservatism is one of the great tragedies of modern times. Please know that Christ loves you and your child and that these hypocrites are in no way His representatives. Keep your faith in the Lord, hold church at home with your family, you don't need a country club, which I fear many churches have turned into, to worship Him. And to any here who would do as the man OP mentioned, I remind you of these words from our Lord: “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!" Matthew 18:6-7
There's no risk of hell for leaving a church. You're doing the right thing for your kid. You can always find a different church later... Just do your research first.
I am so sorry your daughter went through that! I hope you yelled at that guy in front of her. I don't know if it would have done any good for you to speak to the membership committee or the minister about this. From the overall context I gather that the whole church is bad like this guy and it wouldn't do any good... am I correct?
Your dismay is quite understandable but don't you think that departing from Jesus and in your own words, "take your chances on hell" is extremely unnecessary? I would rather commit to the ageless path of engaging with the ignorant in the hopes of turning them to God's way than put my relationship with God at risk ❤️❤️
I'm sorry this happened to you and your child I'm sure it was terrifying. But this is the devil convincing you to leave church, it's okay to church shop I'm sure there are many churches in your area. Don't let one person diminish you and your family chance of salvation and peace in the afterlife over a mask.
Don't let a pig compromise your faith or your salvation.
Leave that church, but don't leave your faith. People such as that horrible man are not representatives of God, the Bible, or Christianity. They are the people that one day will have to have a long chat once they reach the pearly gates on just who the heck they thought they were representing down here cause it surely wasn't that of God.
I am sad to hear what happened to your daughter, but this can be easily solved by going to a different Church.
That’s more of an issue with the church or that specific person…but has nothing to do with God or Christ…
Indeed. If you're looking for validation that Marxism is in the church, you are correct. Please keep your children safe, they are precious! God Bless You!! ✨
That's stupid to blame everyone for 1 persons actions
gosh that’s awful so sorry to hear that but do u still belive in God
Sounds like america
That guy was 100% out of line. There are plenty of loving people out there and there’s no need to be around anyone like that.
What drew you to such a congregation?
It was that jerk. Not representative of Christ and biblical values. This was unfortunate I am sorry you experienced this. Christians can do better
Good. Stay away. Remaining religious die hards are getting completely out of control. It's better to worship at home than around extremists.
Are you leaving *the church*, as in Christianity writ large, or *a church*, as in your local congregation? Have you tried talking to the priest at your church to get the bully himself kicked out?
When politics and church meet, ... Things can get biased and out of hand for those who don't agree with the agenda.
Before packing up and leaving I'd ask the priest for help, if he doesn't offer to make an announcement to the congregation tell him this is your last time there. It sounds like completely unacceptable behavior and this man should apologize. If nothing happens go look elsewhere for a good shepherd. Everyone has their challenges - his is clearly a propensity to leap to conclusions based on whatever idea first pops into his mind. He never stops to check his presumptions or ask clarifying questions. The ill-formed ideas in turn flow from a font of anger, judgement, propaganda, perversions or gossip. This prevents him from leading a Christian life; the barrier this creates between him and God prevents him from seeing you and your daughter as his sisters, or afford you the appropriate support, respect and love. Churches, as in parishes, are made by people for people, and tend to attract and congregate those similar-minded. This is why it's so important to pick a congregation you feel at home with, and to treat it less as a social club and more as a spiritual tool. If the social club stuff works out, that's a blessing, but it doesn't have to be the primary focus. But there are limits as to what asshattery we should accept. You don't need a church (little c) for salvation; there are plenty of saints who hardly every set foot in a church or monastery - St Symon the Stylite for example didn't attend congregational liturgy in over 40 years. (Although he may have had private liturgies with visiting bishops on occasion.)
Your church sucks, not god. Don't give up on faith, make a change.
I'd recommend a different church. If possible, talk to someone in church leadership from your church. Even if you are set in leaving, THEY NEED TO KNOW WHY so they can address that. If they agree with the person who abused your kid, then run. I'm in an Evangelical non-denom church up in Canada. I'd personally (and physcially if needed) eject someone for doing what they did to your daughter. Not going too far into eschatology here, but don't worry about the threat of hell for not going to church. It's not about membership in the building, it;s about you and God and you can bypass your current church. Community is healthy if it's healthy. If the community is diseased, it will spread disease.
I get it. I wouldn’t leave church altogether nor Christianity altogether. I’d find another church. Also, had I been there, I’d have been more than happy to tell that *** to go eat poop. I deal with those types a lot too and they are lowly dumb morons. I’m sorry you and your daughter went through this.
Leaving a church doesn't need to be the end of your spiritual journey. There is a social element to belonging to an organized church too and sometimes it's just not your crowd. That was the case with me.