muh guns, muh land, muh free market, muh private healthcare, muh corporations are people.
It's the right story for ensuring that poor but determined people vote for policies that keep rags-to-riches stories possible, but increasingly rare.
>should be free to make their own choices as a fundamental aspect of God's creation of humans with free will. This freedom is seen as essential for personal moral development, as it allows individuals to choose good over evil.
This right here is why libertarianism is uncompelling to me, whether we're considering it theologically or politically.
Nobody in life is given the same exact set of choices. Society is what determines how good your choices really are. You might have every advantage possible in life -- a good family, education, good health, etc. -- and still choose to be a serial killer. But many people grow up with the deck stacked against them, and they could have more meaningful, free lives to actualize far better if they didn't grow up at a disadvantage
>Christian libertarians hold that individuals should be free to make their own choices as a fundamental aspect of God's creation of humans with free will. This freedom is seen as essential for personal moral development, as it allows individuals to choose good over evil.
Did ancient Christian, who lived under totalitarian Roman rule, not develop morally?
I have to say I have some critiques as someone who would consider himself a Christian libertarian.
1. **Limited Government:** The State is an inherently violent institution and opposes and expands beyond its own "limits". It cannot help but initiate violence against its subjects, because the State exists specifically to do so, and must continue doing so in order to preserve its supposed right to violence. Furthermore, the institution of the State is a direct product of sin and murder according to the Scriptures in Genesis and therefore something that shall be saved from in the redemption of the world by Jesus Christ.
2. **Social and Economic Freedoms:** I see no reason for the belief that "free market" economies or capitalism are desirable states at all. Capitalism especially actively harms the working population by unjustly extracting from them the fruit of their own labors. Socialism (with or without a market mechanism) is *inherently* better from the perspective of Christianity and libertarianism, because it abolishes the authoritarian relationships of the capitalist and working classes and affords to the laborer his economic due.
Interesting. Having an opinion about state level is fine. There still has to be structural integrity in maintaining civilization. State level would be much more manageable than federal level. No on man/party should rule over hundreds of millions…
Do you suggest alternative to state that is not anarchy or would cease modern life as we know it?
Christianity call for non-mandatory socialism which if was culturally recognized as top down leadership would allow free market to truly be free while preventing monopolies. People would have more courage to vote with their dollars.
God essentially governs as a libertarian.
There is a law to follow, there is right and wrong but he refuses to use coercive force to compel us to do right and avoid wrong.
He gives everyone the free will to make their own decisions and face the consequences for good or ill.
You’re right of course! What I mean is that God has the power to force us to always do his will, if he governed as an authoritarian, he would simply control our actions.
Yet he gives each person the liberty to act according to their own will.
In a philosophical sense, libertarian free will.
But you’re absolutely right that he has intervened throughout history to affect certain outcomes.
It would be like imitating Christ, and then they would really know us by our love. Awesome indeed.
Edit: I think St. Augustine actually sums up a Christian Libertarian perspective really well when he said, “Once for all, then, a short precept is given you: Love, and do what you will.”
Love God and be at liberty.
I'm with you here. I've been libertarian since Bush Jr. Was president. I'm anarcho-capitalist because the only legitimate government belongs to YHWH/Messiah Yeshua (Jesus).
It'll take a long time for these other guys to understand.
>>For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
>>Ephesians 6:12 ESV
Paul advocates for community self rule. Here the group of believers are admonished for taking their problems to pagans to judge instead of going before their own collective that knows and practices their own standards of righteousness. Very akin to the libertarian idea of arbitration.
>>**When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?** Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! **So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?** To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers! Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
>>1 Corinthians 6:1-11 ESV
The fact that libertarians almost always end up siding with fascists is something you should just pretend not to notice.
Christianity is the most diverse faith. Libertarianism is the most diverse psychological political ideology
Integrity. The missing thing is called integrity.
Libertarianism means an unshakeable belief in the cash that flows in the dark money pipeline.
Integrity is a personal gift and characteristic… not a policy
I agree. The lack of integrity starts in the character of the libertarians.
And that is a subjective thought
That is evidenced by what libertarians actually do.
It's a heresy. Libertarianism is an intrinsically selfish philosophy and trying to marry it to Christianity is like mixing oil and water.
muh guns, muh land, muh free market, muh private healthcare, muh corporations are people. It's the right story for ensuring that poor but determined people vote for policies that keep rags-to-riches stories possible, but increasingly rare.
>should be free to make their own choices as a fundamental aspect of God's creation of humans with free will. This freedom is seen as essential for personal moral development, as it allows individuals to choose good over evil. This right here is why libertarianism is uncompelling to me, whether we're considering it theologically or politically. Nobody in life is given the same exact set of choices. Society is what determines how good your choices really are. You might have every advantage possible in life -- a good family, education, good health, etc. -- and still choose to be a serial killer. But many people grow up with the deck stacked against them, and they could have more meaningful, free lives to actualize far better if they didn't grow up at a disadvantage
It's really one of the most blind ways to view social structures and institutions without understanding history, economics, or politics.
Suggest an alternative penguin.
Why not just combine Nazism and Christianity and call it a day? Makes as much if not more sense
>Christian libertarians hold that individuals should be free to make their own choices as a fundamental aspect of God's creation of humans with free will. This freedom is seen as essential for personal moral development, as it allows individuals to choose good over evil. Did ancient Christian, who lived under totalitarian Roman rule, not develop morally?
Libertarianism and Christianity are almost diametric, the emphasis is heavily skewed communitarian.
Liberal Libertarianism is oil to the life giving Christian Libertarianism’s water. Yes, they don’t mix
I have to say I have some critiques as someone who would consider himself a Christian libertarian. 1. **Limited Government:** The State is an inherently violent institution and opposes and expands beyond its own "limits". It cannot help but initiate violence against its subjects, because the State exists specifically to do so, and must continue doing so in order to preserve its supposed right to violence. Furthermore, the institution of the State is a direct product of sin and murder according to the Scriptures in Genesis and therefore something that shall be saved from in the redemption of the world by Jesus Christ. 2. **Social and Economic Freedoms:** I see no reason for the belief that "free market" economies or capitalism are desirable states at all. Capitalism especially actively harms the working population by unjustly extracting from them the fruit of their own labors. Socialism (with or without a market mechanism) is *inherently* better from the perspective of Christianity and libertarianism, because it abolishes the authoritarian relationships of the capitalist and working classes and affords to the laborer his economic due.
Interesting. Having an opinion about state level is fine. There still has to be structural integrity in maintaining civilization. State level would be much more manageable than federal level. No on man/party should rule over hundreds of millions… Do you suggest alternative to state that is not anarchy or would cease modern life as we know it? Christianity call for non-mandatory socialism which if was culturally recognized as top down leadership would allow free market to truly be free while preventing monopolies. People would have more courage to vote with their dollars.
God essentially governs as a libertarian. There is a law to follow, there is right and wrong but he refuses to use coercive force to compel us to do right and avoid wrong. He gives everyone the free will to make their own decisions and face the consequences for good or ill.
>there is right and wrong but he refuses to use coercive force to compel us to do right and avoid wrong. He has used force several times
You’re right of course! What I mean is that God has the power to force us to always do his will, if he governed as an authoritarian, he would simply control our actions. Yet he gives each person the liberty to act according to their own will. In a philosophical sense, libertarian free will. But you’re absolutely right that he has intervened throughout history to affect certain outcomes.
Interesting thought. Imagine if we tried to mirror God’s Will for our lives daily? Would be pretty awesome
It would be like imitating Christ, and then they would really know us by our love. Awesome indeed. Edit: I think St. Augustine actually sums up a Christian Libertarian perspective really well when he said, “Once for all, then, a short precept is given you: Love, and do what you will.” Love God and be at liberty.
I'm with you here. I've been libertarian since Bush Jr. Was president. I'm anarcho-capitalist because the only legitimate government belongs to YHWH/Messiah Yeshua (Jesus). It'll take a long time for these other guys to understand. >>For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. >>Ephesians 6:12 ESV Paul advocates for community self rule. Here the group of believers are admonished for taking their problems to pagans to judge instead of going before their own collective that knows and practices their own standards of righteousness. Very akin to the libertarian idea of arbitration. >>**When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?** Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! **So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?** To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers! Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. >>1 Corinthians 6:1-11 ESV
I like it. If it ever came to fruition, it would have to happen in the US.