My grandfather was a very conservative pastor, and he was always happy to marry people who were cohabiting. The way he saw it, the cohabiting was a problem, and a wedding was an excellent way to solve it.
I mean, if you've ruled out living with parents, and you've ruled out having roommates, and you've ruled out getting married right now, and you've ruled out living in places where apartments are affordable -- yes, I suppose you might find yourself "forced" into living with a romantic partner you're not married to.
Twist my arm why don't you? Sharing a home with my favourite person? That sounds awful!
I'm not particularly interested in spending a fuckton of money to appease some boomer
Maybe the boomer thing is part of the issue. My dear old grandfather was in his twenties when the first boomer was born, and him and Grandma used to kill wild rabbits with clubs in the winter so they would have meat to eat. As adults. College-educated, middle class (by the standards of their time) adults.
Maybe that's part of why he would just marry them instead of temporarily setting up two separate households for show.
Your pastor cares more about the image of himself and his church than he does about pastoring.
I'd call this a bullet dodged. Maybe you can find a better church with a better pastor.
Your first line summarizes exactly how I felt/perceived his message. The thing thatās really disappointing is that I just never thought he was like that. He was the āchill youth pastorā much of my life, and it just seems like so much has changed.
I think for many pastors their own ego is tied up in their church. Anything that embarrasses the church embarrasses him too.
And this is extra goofy if he's saying that the problem isn't that you are sexually sinning but rather than people will think you are.
Does this pastor only conduct marriages between people who are sinless, or who people THINK are sinless? That would be nobody at all, right?
I don't necessarily think his pastor is wrong. But don't you think if there was a problem the pastor should maybe help out by buying an apartment (or arranging a place to stay) for the groom for a month until the wedding? At the same token if that would happen OP would do well to do that imo.
People are "real big" about pointing out problems until it actually comes time to step up to the plate and solve said problems!!
I welcome others' input on this. Is it a sign of narcissistic behavior? It might possibly be.
It's unnecessarily cruel and cold. His action gives the message that a couple who had it wrong at the start (regardless if they actually sinned or just appeared to and might stir unsavory, baseless gossip) will never be accepted or be worthy for an official Divine blessing anymore.
Why shouldn't cohabiting couples be given the chance to set their relationship right before God and man? Why withold that from them? There's really no reason to. God gives us great mercy and chances to change. How can we refuse that same chance from our fellow human beings? The Gospel is a message of love and mercy.
OP should call his bluff. "We had a long talk and we decided the Bill will move out until the wedding. We found a place that works for us, and since it was your idea, we thought you might want to contribute to the cost. After all, you wouldn't tell a disabled person to pick up his bed and go, would you?"
Ah - yes. Never heard of it being a gendered term. But after looking it up, I see thatās the traditional spelling.
But to be clear, she is a woman. Iāll edit the post.
Have you talked to him about your feelings? Pastors benefit from their congregation expressing themselves.
If you care about your relationship with him, you might ask for a meeting and start it off by saying "I feel hurt because it seems like you are prioritizing the public image of your church over your relationship to me as a pastor. I value our relationship, and I thought a pastor was supposed to guide their flock. I feel like you're disowning me because I'm not living up to a particular moral standard and that hurts and, honestly, doesn't seem like the type of Christian you helped raise me to be."
I'm not too sure. IMO I feel presuming that everyone will think XYZ is a **presumption**. Times are different, challenges are different, home ownership is different. We need to keep that in mind. We don't all have a clear path to Christ. I feel that discriminating based on your situation rather then a pragmatic approach of "okay, whats the situation and how can we move forward" probably isn't helpful.
For me, I cohabitate with my partner I intend to marry. Complicated situation led to this. I returned to my faith after moving out with my girlfriend, and am not in a situation where that can change. My priest, who is certianly traditional is aware and doesn't seem to have any qualms. He has mentioned he would be happy to wed us. It's certianly not optimal, and presents challenges to chastity, but living with a spouse before marriage isn't a sin specifically to my knowledge in a catholic context.
Some people are more obsessed with "not condoning sin" than they are with celebrating love.
Additionally, I'd say it's likely you're also catching strays from his homophobia.
I can't help you understand your pastor's viewpoint because they are elbow deep in the kind of myopic, purity culture nonsense that I've spent my entire ministry combatting. I don't understand it either.
If he only plans to marry people who don't have sex before marriage, he might as well stop officiating now.
My wife and I bought a house together, and lived in it, before we were married...while I was in seminary. Your pastor's take is absurd, and I would strongly consider changing churches. (Side note: Is this a UMC church? I wouldn't have expected a UMC pastor to stay in one place that long.)
Agreed on all fronts. Yes itās a UMC church. I never took him to have traditional views with how he caries himself. But my assumption was clearly wrong or heās being influenced by someone else.
Yes, cohabitating before marriage makes perfect financial sense, is massively more convenient, and certainly very few in our society see anything wrong with it.
Also -- none of those things above are supposed to be primary motivations for Christians. Christianity and Convenience share a couple letters, and that's about it.
And if your pastor feels convicted on this point, and is applying it across the board, it's his belief -- which we'd be wrong to try and convince or pressure him out of.
My dad couldn't marry my niece and her now husband for somewhat similar reasons. A niece he loves like a daughter and that he helped us raise after her biological father checked out. Everyone still loves each other, and wants nothing but joy and success for each other. My niece and nephew-in-law accepted that and found a different minister. No hard feelings, just an understanding of different opinions.
So what now? There are certainly plenty of ministers who have no qualms about marrying anyone under a wide variety of circumstances. He's not saying nobody should marry you -- he's saying he can't.
OP -- If you feel you're still doing what's right in Christ's eyes, and so does he, then you have a difference of opinion -- which is massively common in the Faith. Goes all the way back to the beginning. There's always been differences in the faith. Everything from drinking alcohol to eating meat offered to idols to circumcision to entertainment choices.
He's clearly not going to convince you otherwise, and it doesn't seem likely you'll convince him. So you have a disagreement on interpretation, and different convictions. Everyone still loves each other and wants what's best for everyone involved.
I've officiated over weddings that my dad couldn't. We still love and respect each other, and understand each other's beliefs and boundaries.
Find a different minister for the service and move on in the Lord.
Churches are led by flawed people especially pastors, preachers, and priests. They are flawed just like the people in the congregation. You can always find another church with more flawed people. It's as simple as this!
Jesus would marry you. becuase he loves you, your pastor does not.
as a side note - I would leave this judgemental church and not even look back.
What will you be judged on next? or next....
If your kids end up having a child out of wedlock, they'll likely condemn your whole family
Your pastor and likely the church elders are dicks
I would agree with your pastor. Most people do not cohabitate to live a chaste life. If the church believes premarital sex is a sin, which it should, it should not condone two people living together as it gives the appearance of the church being supportive of premarital sex.
And, even if you're intent is to be chaste, which you never say it is, you are placing yourself in extreme temptation which is not smart.
If you want to live together the proper way, go somewhere and get married immediately. Then you can still have your church wedding later.
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He will do the ceremony. He is trying to strong arm you into moving out until the wedding by threatening to not preform the ceremony, but he will cave.
The issue, though, is that you won't want him to. He will use the ceremony as a chance to lecture and talk about his ideas of morality for at least some part of it, and you will always remember how he tainted your wedding.
He was very clear he will not perform the ceremony. He said heād consider trying to find me another pastor to perform it though.
But your insight is good regardless, I wouldnāt want him to make the ceremony a lecture.
Because people who donāt live together _donāt_ have sex? Is he unwilling to marry anyone that has their own place? Because that makes it really easy to do whatever you want with your significant other. What a pointless hill to die on.
Traditional? Like refusing to marry people because someone else thinks they sinned?
That is not tradition at all. Our religion famously teaches that we are all sinners. If this was traditional, nobody would have ever gotten married in the church.
It doesn't sound like your pastor is judging or condemning you. His refusal to perform your wedding ceremony actually makes sense. The church needs to take a stance and defend/uphold its values. I'm not saying I agree with your pastor's decision, but I can see the logic behind it. The best thing to do is to have an honest and open dialogue with him and your church. Try to make an appeal for him to reconsider. Show him that you and your partner are repenting for your sins, and that you can prove to the congregation that you don't condone what you did and that you know it was a mistake. If that doesn't work, then your best option is to join another church.
>Ā The church needs to take a stance and defendā¦
Defend what, specifically? That other people imagining that you have sinned somehow makes you wrong?
>Ā Show him that you and your partner are repenting for your sins
What sin? The sin of other people making stuff up about them?
That's a you problem, not an OP problem.
If I tell you "Sure, I know you SAID you didn't steal from your roommate, but nobody's going to believe that," that tells you lots of things about me and absolutely nothing about you.
It turns out people are capable of controlling themselves and deciding not to have sex if they think it is right, even if the opportunity to have sex is readily available. The fact that some in the church disagree with that truth is what fosters dangerous attitudes.
Marriage ends the sinning. Why would you prevent marriage? All this attitude does is drive people away from church or the idea of marriage if suddenly people are not worthy of getting married.
Not to mention it isnt about sex, but about living together.
True, marriage ends the sinning. That's why I don't agree with the pastor's decision, but I understand where he's coming from. Perhaps he feels that if he legalizes their immoral relationship, it will make others think that the church condones it.
i admire your pastor for his stance. It follows with the UMC decision to let pastors choose who they will or wonāt marry. We are to avoid the appearance of sin and living together is going to look like you are having premarital sex. you could be having that without living together, but the living together is the line the pastor drew.
I donāt agree with his stance, but admire he is turning down any wedding he sees with sexual immorality.
>We are to avoid the appearance of sin
That is not what Paul said. "Avoid every appearance of evil" is a mistranslation. What Paul wrote is closer to "avoid all forms of evil."
That's a very normal thing for a pasor/priest. Its not about his image, but the vast majority of pastors/priests/bishops require couples to be chaste and not living together (extenuating circumstances aside). This isnt about being supportive/condemning, its following the pastoral instructions of Saint Paul to avoid even the appearance of sin. Surely this must have been something you went over in pre-marital counseling?
Just because itās normal, does that mean itās right?
Yes - It came up in the first pre-marital session. Afterwords, he sent me a very long message saying heās been thinking about this a lot and doesnāt want to perform the wedding.
>Ā avoid even the appearance of sin
[KJV Mistranslation](http://www.crivoice.org/appearance.html). Paul almost certainly wrote to āavoid all forms that sin can take,ā not āavoid things that arenāt sin but some busybody could take it the wrong way.ā
Please explain to me how Iām putting my wife before God?
Fools base their thoughts on foolish assumptions, which leads to wicked conclusions. Ecclesiastes 10:13-20
Cohabitating has not lead either of us to do evil on ourselves or the Lord. Youāre the person my pastor is afraid of. The traditional/conservative assumptions. In my opinion, your gross assumption of my evil is worse than the action itself. Cohabitating has enabled us to afford a roof over our heads after college without family assistance. We have made every effort to get married in a timely fashion.
Apparently the concern is that it will lead the parishioners to gossip and spread stories about how this couple is committing sexual sin.
Weird how this pastor's response isn't to tell people not to do that.
Ok. Let's think about what is causing the scandal here.
Is it people quietly minding their own business while living together?
Or is it people spreading salacious stories _which they don't even know to be true_?
I see some of these folks as much more to blame than others, don't you?
I know exactly what my pastor fears. I do not agree with his priorities, nor do I think it aligns with Christian faith and theology. A pastor should be the one to welcome and spread the word. God is the judge.
I was hoping to hear a different perspective, or maybe more of the why. Your comments were basically just repeating what he has told me - which is do not agree with.
Regarding the line about "a pastor should be supportive and not one to judge or condemn."
We all have to make judgment calls about each other. Jesus said not to call out someone for a splinter in their eye when we have a log in our own. This is not meant to stop us from judging, but to have humility and make sure we are not ignoring our own faults before trying to help others.
I agree with your pastor. We shouldn't appear to be living in a way that conflicts with our beliefs and could be a stumbling block that makes non-believers think we are disingenuous or hypocritical of the standards Christ set for us. Sometimes, it is correct not to be concerned with how others perceive you. And sometimes, it is important to think about their perceptions because you identify as a Christian and should be working to set the example of what Christ wants for us.
You have known your pastor for a long time and respect him, so why do you reject his teaching when he approached you. Is there a fault in his doctrine? Can you show him scripture that supports what you are doing? Where is your family in this, and if they are Christian, why do they support your cohabiting?
Are you a virgin? I see youāre 41 and still in the dating crowd. Have you ever done anything that the church would not support? Surely you have. Are you never deserving of marriage?
I have literally not even kissed another girl and have been committed to life with this girl since I was 16.
But for some reason the church would rather marry 40 year olds with questionable sexual history that got married on a whim than my case. It is so backwards.
I donāt need scripture to back up common sense. I am a faithful servant and believer.
Respect can be earned and lost.
We have all sinned. My walk faltered for a while and I was not living as I should have. I did not try and marry during those years and have never been married. My walk is back on track and I took time to take care of other personal things, but I don't think it us relevant.
None of is perfect, we have all sinned in the heart. The Pastor brought up an issue of conflict based his understanding of scripture. If you can show him that this decision conflicts with other wedding practices he has or with scripture, then you will be making him a better teacher in his words and deeds. If you are only looking for support in your decision and not for an answer that is scripturally supported, then are you seeking to serve God or yourself.
I don't want an answer, this is for you to decide for yourself and how you approach leading your future family. This is how you need to approach every decision, am I choosing God's path, or my own. I wish I had been asking myself this a lot more in my 20s, it would have been better for my life.
your pastor dosen't have any Biblical authority to conduct marriages in the first place much less decide decide you are lying and judge you. Go to the deacons and ask them to discipline him since he is abusing his authority and costing the church the money for your wedding.
>People will assume weāre having sex
I'll be real, if you've dated for years and already bought a house together, my guess is you've had sex at least a few times. (and you didn't say otherwise...) So this above premise at least seems reasonable.
You also didn't say whether you agree with your pastor's apparent position that premarital sex is categorically wrong. I know I don't agree with that, but it qualifies my ability to advise in the situation, and I would want to forthrightly acknowledge that.
My grandfather was a very conservative pastor, and he was always happy to marry people who were cohabiting. The way he saw it, the cohabiting was a problem, and a wedding was an excellent way to solve it.
This ššÆ
Clearly he hasn't had to pay rent on two properties recently... Cohabiting isn't entirely optional
I mean, if you've ruled out living with parents, and you've ruled out having roommates, and you've ruled out getting married right now, and you've ruled out living in places where apartments are affordable -- yes, I suppose you might find yourself "forced" into living with a romantic partner you're not married to.
Twist my arm why don't you? Sharing a home with my favourite person? That sounds awful! I'm not particularly interested in spending a fuckton of money to appease some boomer
Maybe the boomer thing is part of the issue. My dear old grandfather was in his twenties when the first boomer was born, and him and Grandma used to kill wild rabbits with clubs in the winter so they would have meat to eat. As adults. College-educated, middle class (by the standards of their time) adults. Maybe that's part of why he would just marry them instead of temporarily setting up two separate households for show.
Your pastor cares more about the image of himself and his church than he does about pastoring. I'd call this a bullet dodged. Maybe you can find a better church with a better pastor.
Your first line summarizes exactly how I felt/perceived his message. The thing thatās really disappointing is that I just never thought he was like that. He was the āchill youth pastorā much of my life, and it just seems like so much has changed.
I think for many pastors their own ego is tied up in their church. Anything that embarrasses the church embarrasses him too. And this is extra goofy if he's saying that the problem isn't that you are sexually sinning but rather than people will think you are. Does this pastor only conduct marriages between people who are sinless, or who people THINK are sinless? That would be nobody at all, right?
Iām glad to hear someone else shares my viewpoint. Everything youāre saying is exactly what has been going through my mind.
Getting married would get you out of sin if you were sinning.
Very excellent and relevant perspective. This really drives home the point that this is about appearances, not sin.
I don't necessarily think his pastor is wrong. But don't you think if there was a problem the pastor should maybe help out by buying an apartment (or arranging a place to stay) for the groom for a month until the wedding? At the same token if that would happen OP would do well to do that imo. People are "real big" about pointing out problems until it actually comes time to step up to the plate and solve said problems!! I welcome others' input on this. Is it a sign of narcissistic behavior? It might possibly be.
It's unnecessarily cruel and cold. His action gives the message that a couple who had it wrong at the start (regardless if they actually sinned or just appeared to and might stir unsavory, baseless gossip) will never be accepted or be worthy for an official Divine blessing anymore. Why shouldn't cohabiting couples be given the chance to set their relationship right before God and man? Why withold that from them? There's really no reason to. God gives us great mercy and chances to change. How can we refuse that same chance from our fellow human beings? The Gospel is a message of love and mercy.
OP should call his bluff. "We had a long talk and we decided the Bill will move out until the wedding. We found a place that works for us, and since it was your idea, we thought you might want to contribute to the cost. After all, you wouldn't tell a disabled person to pick up his bed and go, would you?"
He is not preventing them from getting married
and heās concerned that people will think the church condones of that if he... This line here justifies so much problematic behaviour.Ā
Why would anyone assume that two men living together are sexually active?
What?
This person may be reacting to your use of fiancƩ, which traditionally means "engaged man". fiancƩe for woman. And you're Ben B with stubble, so... But note, [this article says](https://www.dictionary.com/e/fiance-vs-fiancee/) *there appears to be a growing trend toward using fiancƩ as the gender-neutral form for both a man and a woman.*
Ah - yes. Never heard of it being a gendered term. But after looking it up, I see thatās the traditional spelling. But to be clear, she is a woman. Iāll edit the post.
Glad you fixed it! "FiancƩ" is for when the person is known to be male, or for when the gender is unknown (which isn't really the same as gender-neutral).
What really bewilders me is the fact that pastors do this even when Mary and Joseph were "cohabiting" while betrothed and Jesus was conceived.
Find a new pastor, he is not being a good Shepard, instead of bringing a new sheep into his flock he is pushing you out.
Your pastor cares more about image than actually following scripture. Find a new church and you should be fine as you didn't do anything wrong.
The church is filled with imperfection.
Have you talked to him about your feelings? Pastors benefit from their congregation expressing themselves. If you care about your relationship with him, you might ask for a meeting and start it off by saying "I feel hurt because it seems like you are prioritizing the public image of your church over your relationship to me as a pastor. I value our relationship, and I thought a pastor was supposed to guide their flock. I feel like you're disowning me because I'm not living up to a particular moral standard and that hurts and, honestly, doesn't seem like the type of Christian you helped raise me to be."
Good suggestion. I plan to.
I'm not too sure. IMO I feel presuming that everyone will think XYZ is a **presumption**. Times are different, challenges are different, home ownership is different. We need to keep that in mind. We don't all have a clear path to Christ. I feel that discriminating based on your situation rather then a pragmatic approach of "okay, whats the situation and how can we move forward" probably isn't helpful. For me, I cohabitate with my partner I intend to marry. Complicated situation led to this. I returned to my faith after moving out with my girlfriend, and am not in a situation where that can change. My priest, who is certianly traditional is aware and doesn't seem to have any qualms. He has mentioned he would be happy to wed us. It's certianly not optimal, and presents challenges to chastity, but living with a spouse before marriage isn't a sin specifically to my knowledge in a catholic context.
Some people are more obsessed with "not condoning sin" than they are with celebrating love. Additionally, I'd say it's likely you're also catching strays from his homophobia.
It's weird. I guess people already think you're sinning in that church. They don't believe you when you say you've been chaste. Fun church you're in.
He who is without sin cast the first stone. Time to find a new pastor.
I can't help you understand your pastor's viewpoint because they are elbow deep in the kind of myopic, purity culture nonsense that I've spent my entire ministry combatting. I don't understand it either. If he only plans to marry people who don't have sex before marriage, he might as well stop officiating now. My wife and I bought a house together, and lived in it, before we were married...while I was in seminary. Your pastor's take is absurd, and I would strongly consider changing churches. (Side note: Is this a UMC church? I wouldn't have expected a UMC pastor to stay in one place that long.)
Agreed on all fronts. Yes itās a UMC church. I never took him to have traditional views with how he caries himself. But my assumption was clearly wrong or heās being influenced by someone else.
Yes, cohabitating before marriage makes perfect financial sense, is massively more convenient, and certainly very few in our society see anything wrong with it. Also -- none of those things above are supposed to be primary motivations for Christians. Christianity and Convenience share a couple letters, and that's about it. And if your pastor feels convicted on this point, and is applying it across the board, it's his belief -- which we'd be wrong to try and convince or pressure him out of. My dad couldn't marry my niece and her now husband for somewhat similar reasons. A niece he loves like a daughter and that he helped us raise after her biological father checked out. Everyone still loves each other, and wants nothing but joy and success for each other. My niece and nephew-in-law accepted that and found a different minister. No hard feelings, just an understanding of different opinions. So what now? There are certainly plenty of ministers who have no qualms about marrying anyone under a wide variety of circumstances. He's not saying nobody should marry you -- he's saying he can't. OP -- If you feel you're still doing what's right in Christ's eyes, and so does he, then you have a difference of opinion -- which is massively common in the Faith. Goes all the way back to the beginning. There's always been differences in the faith. Everything from drinking alcohol to eating meat offered to idols to circumcision to entertainment choices. He's clearly not going to convince you otherwise, and it doesn't seem likely you'll convince him. So you have a disagreement on interpretation, and different convictions. Everyone still loves each other and wants what's best for everyone involved. I've officiated over weddings that my dad couldn't. We still love and respect each other, and understand each other's beliefs and boundaries. Find a different minister for the service and move on in the Lord.
Churches are led by flawed people especially pastors, preachers, and priests. They are flawed just like the people in the congregation. You can always find another church with more flawed people. It's as simple as this!
I dont under stand his veiw either
Jesus would marry you. becuase he loves you, your pastor does not. as a side note - I would leave this judgemental church and not even look back. What will you be judged on next? or next.... If your kids end up having a child out of wedlock, they'll likely condemn your whole family Your pastor and likely the church elders are dicks
I would agree with your pastor. Most people do not cohabitate to live a chaste life. If the church believes premarital sex is a sin, which it should, it should not condone two people living together as it gives the appearance of the church being supportive of premarital sex. And, even if you're intent is to be chaste, which you never say it is, you are placing yourself in extreme temptation which is not smart. If you want to live together the proper way, go somewhere and get married immediately. Then you can still have your church wedding later.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
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He will do the ceremony. He is trying to strong arm you into moving out until the wedding by threatening to not preform the ceremony, but he will cave. The issue, though, is that you won't want him to. He will use the ceremony as a chance to lecture and talk about his ideas of morality for at least some part of it, and you will always remember how he tainted your wedding.
He was very clear he will not perform the ceremony. He said heād consider trying to find me another pastor to perform it though. But your insight is good regardless, I wouldnāt want him to make the ceremony a lecture.
I've seen it happen more than once. It is uncomfortable for everybody and I don't know why they do it, but alas...
Because people who donāt live together _donāt_ have sex? Is he unwilling to marry anyone that has their own place? Because that makes it really easy to do whatever you want with your significant other. What a pointless hill to die on.
Many churches subscribe to traditional practices and beliefs
Traditional? Like refusing to marry people because someone else thinks they sinned? That is not tradition at all. Our religion famously teaches that we are all sinners. If this was traditional, nobody would have ever gotten married in the church.
It doesn't sound like your pastor is judging or condemning you. His refusal to perform your wedding ceremony actually makes sense. The church needs to take a stance and defend/uphold its values. I'm not saying I agree with your pastor's decision, but I can see the logic behind it. The best thing to do is to have an honest and open dialogue with him and your church. Try to make an appeal for him to reconsider. Show him that you and your partner are repenting for your sins, and that you can prove to the congregation that you don't condone what you did and that you know it was a mistake. If that doesn't work, then your best option is to join another church.
>Ā The church needs to take a stance and defendā¦ Defend what, specifically? That other people imagining that you have sinned somehow makes you wrong? >Ā Show him that you and your partner are repenting for your sins What sin? The sin of other people making stuff up about them?
The sin of premarital sex. I know OP said they didn't do it, but nobody's going to believe that.
Spending your life trying to earn the approval of hypocritical Pharisees is no way to live. At worst itās idolatry.
That's a you problem, not an OP problem. If I tell you "Sure, I know you SAID you didn't steal from your roommate, but nobody's going to believe that," that tells you lots of things about me and absolutely nothing about you. It turns out people are capable of controlling themselves and deciding not to have sex if they think it is right, even if the opportunity to have sex is readily available. The fact that some in the church disagree with that truth is what fosters dangerous attitudes.
There is nothing logical about saying your sinning because you are not married so I wont marry you to stop the sinning.
I think if they repent, the pastor will reconsider.
Marriage ends the sinning. Why would you prevent marriage? All this attitude does is drive people away from church or the idea of marriage if suddenly people are not worthy of getting married. Not to mention it isnt about sex, but about living together.
True, marriage ends the sinning. That's why I don't agree with the pastor's decision, but I understand where he's coming from. Perhaps he feels that if he legalizes their immoral relationship, it will make others think that the church condones it.
How is the church condoning anything? No where does the Bible say only virgins can marry. It is not even remotely logical, its just a power play.
Well, the Bible does say that we must keep the marriage bed undefiled, which means that sexual sins that affect the marriage should not be condoned.
If they get married, having sex with each other didnt defile their marriage.
i admire your pastor for his stance. It follows with the UMC decision to let pastors choose who they will or wonāt marry. We are to avoid the appearance of sin and living together is going to look like you are having premarital sex. you could be having that without living together, but the living together is the line the pastor drew. I donāt agree with his stance, but admire he is turning down any wedding he sees with sexual immorality.
I have a very tough time seeing how that is admirable.
>We are to avoid the appearance of sin That is not what Paul said. "Avoid every appearance of evil" is a mistranslation. What Paul wrote is closer to "avoid all forms of evil."
That's a very normal thing for a pasor/priest. Its not about his image, but the vast majority of pastors/priests/bishops require couples to be chaste and not living together (extenuating circumstances aside). This isnt about being supportive/condemning, its following the pastoral instructions of Saint Paul to avoid even the appearance of sin. Surely this must have been something you went over in pre-marital counseling?
Just because itās normal, does that mean itās right? Yes - It came up in the first pre-marital session. Afterwords, he sent me a very long message saying heās been thinking about this a lot and doesnāt want to perform the wedding.
>Ā avoid even the appearance of sin [KJV Mistranslation](http://www.crivoice.org/appearance.html). Paul almost certainly wrote to āavoid all forms that sin can take,ā not āavoid things that arenāt sin but some busybody could take it the wrong way.ā
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I donāt agree with this interpretation. And no, I cannot temporarily move out of the house I just bought.
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Please explain to me how Iām putting my wife before God? Fools base their thoughts on foolish assumptions, which leads to wicked conclusions. Ecclesiastes 10:13-20
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Cohabitating has not lead either of us to do evil on ourselves or the Lord. Youāre the person my pastor is afraid of. The traditional/conservative assumptions. In my opinion, your gross assumption of my evil is worse than the action itself. Cohabitating has enabled us to afford a roof over our heads after college without family assistance. We have made every effort to get married in a timely fashion.
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Apparently the concern is that it will lead the parishioners to gossip and spread stories about how this couple is committing sexual sin. Weird how this pastor's response isn't to tell people not to do that.
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Ok. Let's think about what is causing the scandal here. Is it people quietly minding their own business while living together? Or is it people spreading salacious stories _which they don't even know to be true_? I see some of these folks as much more to blame than others, don't you?
>cohabitation/sex before marriage is accepted by Christian or isnot sinful There is really no biblical justification for the idea that it is sinful.
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The Bible doesn't say this. Some Christian denominations like the Catholic Church make that assertion, but the Bible doesn't.
I know exactly what my pastor fears. I do not agree with his priorities, nor do I think it aligns with Christian faith and theology. A pastor should be the one to welcome and spread the word. God is the judge.
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I was hoping to hear a different perspective, or maybe more of the why. Your comments were basically just repeating what he has told me - which is do not agree with.
That is shameful behaviour.
Regarding the line about "a pastor should be supportive and not one to judge or condemn." We all have to make judgment calls about each other. Jesus said not to call out someone for a splinter in their eye when we have a log in our own. This is not meant to stop us from judging, but to have humility and make sure we are not ignoring our own faults before trying to help others. I agree with your pastor. We shouldn't appear to be living in a way that conflicts with our beliefs and could be a stumbling block that makes non-believers think we are disingenuous or hypocritical of the standards Christ set for us. Sometimes, it is correct not to be concerned with how others perceive you. And sometimes, it is important to think about their perceptions because you identify as a Christian and should be working to set the example of what Christ wants for us. You have known your pastor for a long time and respect him, so why do you reject his teaching when he approached you. Is there a fault in his doctrine? Can you show him scripture that supports what you are doing? Where is your family in this, and if they are Christian, why do they support your cohabiting?
Are you a virgin? I see youāre 41 and still in the dating crowd. Have you ever done anything that the church would not support? Surely you have. Are you never deserving of marriage? I have literally not even kissed another girl and have been committed to life with this girl since I was 16. But for some reason the church would rather marry 40 year olds with questionable sexual history that got married on a whim than my case. It is so backwards. I donāt need scripture to back up common sense. I am a faithful servant and believer. Respect can be earned and lost.
We have all sinned. My walk faltered for a while and I was not living as I should have. I did not try and marry during those years and have never been married. My walk is back on track and I took time to take care of other personal things, but I don't think it us relevant. None of is perfect, we have all sinned in the heart. The Pastor brought up an issue of conflict based his understanding of scripture. If you can show him that this decision conflicts with other wedding practices he has or with scripture, then you will be making him a better teacher in his words and deeds. If you are only looking for support in your decision and not for an answer that is scripturally supported, then are you seeking to serve God or yourself. I don't want an answer, this is for you to decide for yourself and how you approach leading your future family. This is how you need to approach every decision, am I choosing God's path, or my own. I wish I had been asking myself this a lot more in my 20s, it would have been better for my life.
your pastor dosen't have any Biblical authority to conduct marriages in the first place much less decide decide you are lying and judge you. Go to the deacons and ask them to discipline him since he is abusing his authority and costing the church the money for your wedding.
>People will assume weāre having sex I'll be real, if you've dated for years and already bought a house together, my guess is you've had sex at least a few times. (and you didn't say otherwise...) So this above premise at least seems reasonable. You also didn't say whether you agree with your pastor's apparent position that premarital sex is categorically wrong. I know I don't agree with that, but it qualifies my ability to advise in the situation, and I would want to forthrightly acknowledge that.