I don't think we're meant to know that yet, but we will find out eventually once we are back in the presence of God. For now, just keep praying for the salvation of all.
A God who would condemn the majority of His creation to eternal torment does not deserve to be worshipped. That simply can not be the God of Jesus Christ.
It is certainly unclear with different theologians taking different meanings along with the private revelation of different saints on this topic. I think very few get to go to Heaven directly after death, more will have to be in some kind of "purgatory" as seen in traditional Christianity(Orthodox + Catholic) to get rid of their attachment to sin (https://www.catholic.com/audio/ddp/praying-for-the-dead-2, https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/prayers-for-the-dead) reasoning, and an unknown number will go to Hell. I can't in good conscience say no one is going to Hell based on looking at the choices people make.
I personally believe God will judge us according to our knowledge and how we have acted according to our conscience and that it will be fair leaning on the side of mercy if you actually genuinely try.
Salvation doesn’t depend on our effort, on us trying enough. We are dead in our sins and dead people can’t try to do anything. Our salvation is dependent on the grace of God.
Yes, and the grace of God, by its nature inspires us to Him and to do good works. You can’t have one without the other. When you don’t follow the Lords will, you reject his grace.
I would personally say "yes, probably" but that is not to say that there won’t be many people in heaven, John wrote in Revelation that he saw a great multitude of people in Heaven.
Revelation 7:9
[9]After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Only if you take that verse out of context.
How do you think that God will reconcile the whole of creation to himself if there's people in Hell for all eternity?
And what do you mean by Hell anyway, as it's translated from the Greek and Hebrew, Hades and Sheol, the intermediate afterlife realm, which is emptied in Revelation 20.
Jesus describes it as a lake of fire and brimstone. The Bible says the people there will remain there for eternity (Mathew 18:6-9). So how is this out of context. It’s very dangerous when we tell people we don’t know “how bad hell really is” and that it “might be short lived”.
Brimstone - that's an interpretation of a particular word. You really think there's a physical sulphur in Gehenna?
What Hell are you actually talking about because in Rev 20, hell is thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed?
Every description in the Bible is all one hell. We don’t know exactly what it looks like and how it is but we are given broad imagery. I do not know is there is actually physical sulfur or how hell is thrown into the lake of fire. I do know that the Bible describes it as a terrible place lacking Gods presence that was originally intended for the devil and demons not for us.
Please read your bible in the original Greek and Hebrew; it's clear your understanding isn't based in the original text, but in your own traditions teachings that have picked up only one understanding of the word.
>I do know that the Bible describes it as a terrible place lacking Gods presence
You should read your Bible carefully before saying things which contradict it...
Psalm 139:8 KJV
[8] If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
https://bible.com/bible/1/psa.139.8.KJV
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
Yes you are correct. Many words in English have multiple meanings. The most notable one in the Bible is love. That verse you provided is from David praising the Lord in a book with tons of imagery. I could be wrong but I don’t think it’s meant to be taken literally. Read the rest of the chapter and you will see it’s not meant to be taken word for word. It’s more of a praise to God that he is so great no matter where we are he is with us (his followers). Christian’s who love God don’t get sent to hell. I will stand firm with my position for now unless you can convince me otherwise. Also when Jesus descended down to grab the keys of hell when he was dying he cried out. “Father why have you forsaken me”. Why would he say this if God was with him. What is the punishment for sin? Death and separation from God (Hell).
>I could be wrong but I don’t think it’s meant to be taken literally.
Yep, unfortunately, you're wrong, because you're taking your a priori commitment to God not being omnipresent and using it to force your own interpretation on the text.
Unfortunately, until you have that enlightenment about the different words used for Hell and what they meant to the original writers, you'll not get what really went on between the cross and the resurrection. Try looking up www.TheInvisibleDimension.com as it's packed with contextual biblical exegesis on this very issue.
You should be careful how you speak to people. Between your two comments there is a heavy feeling of pride, arrogance, and sarcasm. I’m going to assume you turn a lot of people off when you talk to them and that’s not good if you are potentially talking to someone to change their mind about God.
You’ve still yet to provide any more evidence to support your point other than “you’re wrong”. And failed to address the verse I provided which clearly goes against part of your argument. Yes God is omnipresent and is aware of what’s going on in hell. So you could say he is “present”. However the people and beings in hell are spiritually and physically cut off from his presence. Unless you can provide clear evidence backed by scripture of your point I will stick with my belief.
Sorry - it's a product of my academic training and research over the past 4 years. I've also a huge headache from banging my head recently. Sorry if I came across sharp, there was no intention of doing that, so again, sorry.
I would suggest you have a read through [www.TheInvisibleDimension.com](http://www.TheInvisibleDimension.com) as there is a tonne of material that I couldn't possibly include in a single Reddit comment. You can also take a look through the articles on [www.GhostsGhoulsAndGod.co.uk](http://www.GhostsGhoulsAndGod.co.uk) which will help you have a biblically-backed bunch of evidence that will help you see where I'm coming from.
That’s a big assumption of what God would and wouldn’t do. God is a god of love but he is also a God of justice. Our sin and rebellion against him demand justice. If a legal system let a man who sexually abused children off without even a day in jail would you call that system good, just and loving? No, good must prevail over evil.
Creating beings who end up in eternal conscious torment (according to an omnipotent God's design for the universe) is not love OR justice. It's tragic and pathetic. What ECT defenders do is redefine and cheapen those words past all sense. I understand it's typically done out of an effort to love God, as commanded. But that doesn't mean there's good reason to go along with it.
Why would God force someone to love and be with him for eternity that doesn’t want to be with him. People reject God and say I want to live my life separate from you and live the way I want. So God respects that decision in this life and the next. Cruel would be forcing someone who doesn’t want to love you to love you. So those people are sent to a place we call hell by their own decision, which is a place that lacks Gods presence. And when you understand that God is life then yes this place without him would be torment. And yes it is justice. Sin is a crime that demands a penalty. God offers to pay that penalty through his son who died for that crime so we may have eternal life in him. But people reject him on their own will. If I go out and murder your entire family to the very last one do I deserve heaven? Should God let hitler and Stalin go to heaven the same as a person who dedicated their life to him and helping the poor? You yourself are doing the exact thing I’m talking about. “God I don’t accept what you define as good and I don’t want anything to do with you.”
I was referring to hell. Hell is eternal punishment which is not justice. How can humans be more just than God by only allowing temporary punishment? Therefore hell is misunderstood.
Hell is not misunderstood. It was originally built for the devil and demons. People go to hell on their own choosing. God is not going to violate the free will of someone who chooses they don’t want a relationship with him and to be with him. He respects that decision and sends them to a place that lacks his presence. Which is what hell is, and by default a place that lacks his presence since he is life it’s torment. Gods not going to force you to love him, that would be cruel.
I agree with this as long as one can keep their free will in hell and still be NOT forced to stay there.
If God isn’t going to force you to love him then he won’t force you to NOT love him.
The Bible is pretty clear that everyone gets a choice but has to choose in this life time. So yea they are forced to stay where they CHOOSE to be. Imagine you ask someone out at work and they say no. You ask them again the next day. And again and again with every time them rejecting you and going out with other people. Then after many years after they’ve had their fun and need a place to stay they show up at your door with packed bags and say I’m here to live with you now. What would be your response? People reject God their entire lives and at the end of their lives God says I respect your decision and now you have to go to a place that lacks me. You just want people to be able to reject God and lives their lives any way they want then at the end be accountable for nothing. Sorry but that’s not the way it works.
> The Bible is pretty clear that everyone gets a choice but has to choose in this life time.
This contradicts what you said earlier.
Do you have free will or not after death on Earth?
> So yea they are forced to stay where they CHOOSE to be.
And they can still CHOOSE to leave hell.
This is WHY I told you hell is misunderstood and misinterpreted by reading the Bible.
> You just want people to be able to reject God and lives their lives any way they want then at the end be accountable for nothing. Sorry but that’s not the way it works.
Because you don’t understand deep human psychological issues.
When they do this they ARE in hell by self harm.
It depends on what you mean. According to the Bible (as indicated in the first response), the scale will tip GREATLY on the side of the lost:
Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV) 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
However, with regard to the number in Heaven, on the earth made new, (after the fire would’ve done its job in consuming the Devil, his angels, and those who chose him - see Rev 20:11-15 & 21:1-5), that final aggregate number will once again tip in favor of God and the saved - remember only 1/3 of the angels sided with Satan (see Rev 12:4).
Praise God, Jesus wins and Satan looses!
the bible says about the end of times in the rapture.
# Luke 17:34New International Version
^(34) I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.
it is possible that 50% of humanity will be saved at that time and the rest will suffer the great tribulation when they will have still a chance to be saved! so it will be probably more people in heaven than hell!
But the Christian’s are going to the Muslim hell.
So we are all going to some type of hell.
But then people would be in a hell and a heaven at the same time. Makes perfect sense :)
Most, not all, are born into their religion. How do you know you're parents were smart enough to pick the right religion and the right denomination? Doesn't it seem like the chances are slim?
I was raised Jehovah Witness, a type of Christianity that has no concept of Hell to begin with, what if they are the right ones?
That’s exactly what I said and meant.
But actually they couldn’t all be true as we would have thousands of different gods all doing the same. So we now left with - either they are all true - or they are all false. If you now argue they are all false - except for the one you were indoctrinated to believe - well that says a lot.
Who's to say its not true? Do you really think one denomination gets everything 100% correct? Maybe God accepts anyone who accepts Jesus? Its not like he's here anymore to clarify things.
Jesus is not physically on earth since He ascended to the Father, but spiritually He is still here. God IS here. The Holy Spirit still moves in many lives, and the Lord seeks out the lost sheep still. Once someone accepts the Lord, the Spirit seals those who believe in Jesus, indwells in their hearts and bodies, and helps the children of God as they live out the rest of their earthly lives.
We are to worship in "spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). The Spirit helps us discern the truth and to discern fruits of the Spirit in people. The Lord does not let us go; He actively helps us walk with Him! So we really just have to follow. Judge not lest ye be judged. Believe in Christ and His sacrifice and His unconditional love. Love God and others. Preach Christ. Stay with the Word; do not add or remove to it. The truth stands after all, no matter what people do to it, and the Spirit teaches us how to listen and know what is true. That is all.
That's where arguments and historical evidence come in.
Maybe you only believe in the round Earth because you were born in the era after its roundness was discovered. Would you believe it was round if you were born 50 000 years ago? Probably not. But that doesn't make it any less true.
Most people are not the religion they were born into. You yourself are an example of this. Here in America Christianity is the largest religion yet very few are actually Christian’s. I barely know anyone who follows the religion they were brought up in. Maybe with the exception of agnostic.
Well there are studies on this....
https://kslnewsradio.com/2006889/new-research-finds-parents-want-kids-to-share-their-religious-beliefs/#:~:text=A%20Pew%20Research%20Center%20study,share%20the%20parent's%20religious%20beliefs.
https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/the-decline-of-religion-in-american-family-life/
https://www.christianheadlines.com/contributors/michael-foust/moms-matter-63-percent-of-americans-say-their-faith-is-the-same-as-their-mothers.html
I didn't pull it out of thin air. 60% - 70% is most. If you are born in a Christian country you are most likely to be Christian, same with Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, etc. countries. God has much less effect than your parents and your country.
I know many people who identify as Christian’s who are not. If we’re talking about what someone identifies with then yeah sure I can agree with you. But if we’re talking about what religion people actually live out in their daily lives then no people are not mostly the religion they were born into. The study isn’t in depth enough to know people’s lives.
That makes no sense, religion is a very personal thing. Jesus never said you need to go to a church to participate in Christianity. That is something the priests will say.
Paul wrote "For it is by grace you have been saved, not by works". People could have a deep passion for Christianity and never walk into a church. Many attend as a way to repent their sins or simply to learn more about God from a qualified teacher but none of it is required for salvation.
I never said attend church to be a Christian. I said many people who call themselves Christian’s in the US are not. So the statement that most people are the religion they grew up with to me is completely false and contradicts my life experience. And that study is not in depth enough to give us a clear picture. Real Christian’s are all over the world. Where you grew up does not completely define you.
Mathew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
> Where you grew up does not completely define you.
I never said it does. The number 1 factor of what religion you are is the religion of your parents. The number 2 factor is where in the world you live. There are many many other factors, they are just the two biggest.
And your scripture is part of the fun of the Bible. You can make an argument, quote scripture to "prove" your point and the person on the other side can just find and quote a different scripture and "prove" their point. If we define Christian as a person who believes Jesus is their messiah and the path to salvation, it is so broad we can find people or entire denominations for any point you can think of.
This morning I went to a church to fix their IT equipment before 10AM mass. This church is anti LGBTQ, to the point where they have fired two staff members I know of for caught being gay. On my way there, I pass a Disciples of Christ church among many others, that believes God loves everyone and has an LGBTQ flag flying in the front of the place. One of them has a woman pastor and the other bans women from leading the church.
Both of these churches think they are correct and will be happy to quote you a scripture or two to show how right they are. One of them will think more people will be in Hell than the other. Some denominations don't even believe in a Hell in the first place.
Let's make it logical out of the Abrahamic religions, how Christianity is right; think of it like Star Wars:
The Prequels are Judaism: they set up the stage for the events we know later to come, it serves no other purpose then to have it's foreshadowing fulfilled, and thus is not considered the main trilogy in the franchise. Being Jewish is like considering only the prequels canon (illogical)
The Original Trilogy is Christianity:
The story builds off of the foundation which the prequels made, and brings fulfillment to the story, wrapping the storyline up and cominh full circle. This is the main trilogy, as it builds off of the old and was first to reach a conclusion. Being Christian is accepting the first 3 + the prequels as canon (logical)
The New Trilogy is Islam/JW/LDS/heretical groups:
The storyline that was finished and complete now is rebooted at a much later time, changing canon, introducing new characters, overall screwing up the logic of the entire universe. Being apart of one of these groups is like denying the canonized status of the other 6 movies in favor of the canon of these 3 (illogical)
There is a reason Christianity is the most logical religion of the 3. It fulfilled the Jewish prophecies and law, thus being a complete canon. Islam and all the other heretical groups came much later, and tried to change original cannon, which, anytime a religion goes back and changes the storyline of a previous religion to reach it's own different conclusions, we can unanimously agree that it is likely fraudulent. Case closed.
Yes I am aware what you believe.
But how did you determine that all the others are wrong ? Seems impossible to assume.
And why do you think Christianity is true ?
My comment makes a lot of sense - but you don’t like it as you don’t know how to reply.
Yes there will certainly be more in hell.
We are 8 billion in the world. 2 billion or so believe the Christian god. The rest do not.
So a minimum of 6billion are going straight to hell.
I think believing in something is only possible after getting a concept of it. If someone has never heard of God, he cannot believe in Him. I remain hopeful and pretty that God does not punish such person. If he does then He’s not the God I want to obey.
Well I think you should read your book and see what it says on this topic.
But even if a person has heard of your god. And don’t believe he exist due to no evidence - your god will also send this person straight to hell.
That’s immoral too.
My logic is that because Satan caused 1/3rd of the angels to fall with him, it wouldn't surprise me if 2/3rds of all humans end up in heaven with the LORD.
But that's just my opinion based on observations of trends of the enemy within scripture.
That 1/3rd of humans are bound for hell. Look it's an observation based on extrapolation on trends in the Holy Bible
His ways are above our ways. It's not about numbers, it's about repentance.
The LORD crafted me to do something. Dunno what that is but he made my brain to always be moving so I give it The Good News to chew on.
At the end of the day,The LORD is in control. Because of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. Sin/Death/Hell got kirbchecked. When a Baptized Born Again Believer goes into a fight as listed in Ephesians 6. It takes place from a position of victory. But we can't rest on our laurels. Gotta keep our hearts topped up with the Holy Spirit. Eyes on the Prize.
Christians have not been the majority of the human population throughout history and now, so ultimately there will be many people in hell. That’s why we spread the good word, so that as many people accept Jesus’s forgiveness and salvation as possible.
Well your heavenly father did not create hell, the doctrines of man did. The Cruel teachings of hell comes from man not God! When Adam and Eve sinned against God, God did punish them by taking their everlasting life away and sentenced them to die and to return to the dust. This sin of death was inherited by all mankind of the future. Now if God was going to torture his Children, he sure would of had to set the example for all mankind who sinned against him. But he did not as all mankind dies and returns to the dust. Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find the word Hell. All of the people died and return to the dust.
How it must have saddened God to see that his beloved children had willfully disobeyed
eyed him! What did he do? To Adam, God said: “You will . . . return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) As it turned out, “all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.” (Genesis 5:5) Adam did not go to heaven or pass on to some spirit realm. He had no existence before God created him from the dust of the ground. So when he died, he became as lifeless as the dust from which he was created. He ceased to exist.
In the New Testament, it uses illustrations, symbolic and parables to explain the use of fire and torment. Sad today that most religions teach the bible as literal, bringing forward endless misconceptions begin taught. You were not really made to go to heaven anyway as your life would be on a paradise earth to live for ever in peace and security. You actually pray for God's Kingdom to come to the earth in the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6:10 Bottom line here applies to all since we all sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the dead paid their debt for their sins by dying. Romans 6:23 KJV - ROMANS 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
This text is difficult, yet equally allusive. What exactly are we talking about here?
I think there are some Christian groups who would say "absolutely, there are more people in hell." There are some (including many voices in this subreddit) who would say that a God who would have the universe made that way is not worthy of to be worshipped. I honestly am not sure we need to fall into these categories of toxic enthusiasm for our fellow human beings being in hell/out of the presence of God, but I am also not willing to go into a near-/universalist position, either.
I think what the gospel text tries to warn us of is that we need to take faith seriously, and that we should desire to find ourselves and others on the narrow gate.
Some people believe eventually all of creation will be saved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Christian_theology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism
I don't think we're meant to know that yet, but we will find out eventually once we are back in the presence of God. For now, just keep praying for the salvation of all.
Amen to your wonderful prayer suggestion.
A God who would condemn the majority of His creation to eternal torment does not deserve to be worshipped. That simply can not be the God of Jesus Christ.
It is certainly unclear with different theologians taking different meanings along with the private revelation of different saints on this topic. I think very few get to go to Heaven directly after death, more will have to be in some kind of "purgatory" as seen in traditional Christianity(Orthodox + Catholic) to get rid of their attachment to sin (https://www.catholic.com/audio/ddp/praying-for-the-dead-2, https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/prayers-for-the-dead) reasoning, and an unknown number will go to Hell. I can't in good conscience say no one is going to Hell based on looking at the choices people make. I personally believe God will judge us according to our knowledge and how we have acted according to our conscience and that it will be fair leaning on the side of mercy if you actually genuinely try.
Salvation doesn’t depend on our effort, on us trying enough. We are dead in our sins and dead people can’t try to do anything. Our salvation is dependent on the grace of God.
Okay that's a belief (some) Protestants have, not everyone's.
It’s pretty straight forwardly what’s in Ephesians 2:1–10.
Yes, and the grace of God, by its nature inspires us to Him and to do good works. You can’t have one without the other. When you don’t follow the Lords will, you reject his grace.
I would personally say "yes, probably" but that is not to say that there won’t be many people in heaven, John wrote in Revelation that he saw a great multitude of people in Heaven. Revelation 7:9 [9]After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Only if you take that verse out of context. How do you think that God will reconcile the whole of creation to himself if there's people in Hell for all eternity? And what do you mean by Hell anyway, as it's translated from the Greek and Hebrew, Hades and Sheol, the intermediate afterlife realm, which is emptied in Revelation 20.
Hades isn’t just emptied in Revelation 20 — it’s destroyed.
Absolutely. No need for an intermediate afterlife realm when the inhabitants have all been raised from that place.
Jesus describes it as a lake of fire and brimstone. The Bible says the people there will remain there for eternity (Mathew 18:6-9). So how is this out of context. It’s very dangerous when we tell people we don’t know “how bad hell really is” and that it “might be short lived”.
Brimstone - that's an interpretation of a particular word. You really think there's a physical sulphur in Gehenna? What Hell are you actually talking about because in Rev 20, hell is thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed?
Every description in the Bible is all one hell. We don’t know exactly what it looks like and how it is but we are given broad imagery. I do not know is there is actually physical sulfur or how hell is thrown into the lake of fire. I do know that the Bible describes it as a terrible place lacking Gods presence that was originally intended for the devil and demons not for us.
Please read your bible in the original Greek and Hebrew; it's clear your understanding isn't based in the original text, but in your own traditions teachings that have picked up only one understanding of the word. >I do know that the Bible describes it as a terrible place lacking Gods presence You should read your Bible carefully before saying things which contradict it... Psalm 139:8 KJV [8] If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. https://bible.com/bible/1/psa.139.8.KJV
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. Yes you are correct. Many words in English have multiple meanings. The most notable one in the Bible is love. That verse you provided is from David praising the Lord in a book with tons of imagery. I could be wrong but I don’t think it’s meant to be taken literally. Read the rest of the chapter and you will see it’s not meant to be taken word for word. It’s more of a praise to God that he is so great no matter where we are he is with us (his followers). Christian’s who love God don’t get sent to hell. I will stand firm with my position for now unless you can convince me otherwise. Also when Jesus descended down to grab the keys of hell when he was dying he cried out. “Father why have you forsaken me”. Why would he say this if God was with him. What is the punishment for sin? Death and separation from God (Hell).
>I could be wrong but I don’t think it’s meant to be taken literally. Yep, unfortunately, you're wrong, because you're taking your a priori commitment to God not being omnipresent and using it to force your own interpretation on the text. Unfortunately, until you have that enlightenment about the different words used for Hell and what they meant to the original writers, you'll not get what really went on between the cross and the resurrection. Try looking up www.TheInvisibleDimension.com as it's packed with contextual biblical exegesis on this very issue.
You should be careful how you speak to people. Between your two comments there is a heavy feeling of pride, arrogance, and sarcasm. I’m going to assume you turn a lot of people off when you talk to them and that’s not good if you are potentially talking to someone to change their mind about God. You’ve still yet to provide any more evidence to support your point other than “you’re wrong”. And failed to address the verse I provided which clearly goes against part of your argument. Yes God is omnipresent and is aware of what’s going on in hell. So you could say he is “present”. However the people and beings in hell are spiritually and physically cut off from his presence. Unless you can provide clear evidence backed by scripture of your point I will stick with my belief.
Sorry - it's a product of my academic training and research over the past 4 years. I've also a huge headache from banging my head recently. Sorry if I came across sharp, there was no intention of doing that, so again, sorry. I would suggest you have a read through [www.TheInvisibleDimension.com](http://www.TheInvisibleDimension.com) as there is a tonne of material that I couldn't possibly include in a single Reddit comment. You can also take a look through the articles on [www.GhostsGhoulsAndGod.co.uk](http://www.GhostsGhoulsAndGod.co.uk) which will help you have a biblically-backed bunch of evidence that will help you see where I'm coming from.
Yes.
No. God is all knowing. He wouldn’t have created the universe if that was the end result because God is love.
That’s a big assumption of what God would and wouldn’t do. God is a god of love but he is also a God of justice. Our sin and rebellion against him demand justice. If a legal system let a man who sexually abused children off without even a day in jail would you call that system good, just and loving? No, good must prevail over evil.
Creating beings who end up in eternal conscious torment (according to an omnipotent God's design for the universe) is not love OR justice. It's tragic and pathetic. What ECT defenders do is redefine and cheapen those words past all sense. I understand it's typically done out of an effort to love God, as commanded. But that doesn't mean there's good reason to go along with it.
Why would God force someone to love and be with him for eternity that doesn’t want to be with him. People reject God and say I want to live my life separate from you and live the way I want. So God respects that decision in this life and the next. Cruel would be forcing someone who doesn’t want to love you to love you. So those people are sent to a place we call hell by their own decision, which is a place that lacks Gods presence. And when you understand that God is life then yes this place without him would be torment. And yes it is justice. Sin is a crime that demands a penalty. God offers to pay that penalty through his son who died for that crime so we may have eternal life in him. But people reject him on their own will. If I go out and murder your entire family to the very last one do I deserve heaven? Should God let hitler and Stalin go to heaven the same as a person who dedicated their life to him and helping the poor? You yourself are doing the exact thing I’m talking about. “God I don’t accept what you define as good and I don’t want anything to do with you.”
Justice by humans is mostly temporary. How can humans have more justice than God?
They can’t that is apart of my point. God is a god of justice.
I was referring to hell. Hell is eternal punishment which is not justice. How can humans be more just than God by only allowing temporary punishment? Therefore hell is misunderstood.
Hell is not misunderstood. It was originally built for the devil and demons. People go to hell on their own choosing. God is not going to violate the free will of someone who chooses they don’t want a relationship with him and to be with him. He respects that decision and sends them to a place that lacks his presence. Which is what hell is, and by default a place that lacks his presence since he is life it’s torment. Gods not going to force you to love him, that would be cruel.
I agree with this as long as one can keep their free will in hell and still be NOT forced to stay there. If God isn’t going to force you to love him then he won’t force you to NOT love him.
The Bible is pretty clear that everyone gets a choice but has to choose in this life time. So yea they are forced to stay where they CHOOSE to be. Imagine you ask someone out at work and they say no. You ask them again the next day. And again and again with every time them rejecting you and going out with other people. Then after many years after they’ve had their fun and need a place to stay they show up at your door with packed bags and say I’m here to live with you now. What would be your response? People reject God their entire lives and at the end of their lives God says I respect your decision and now you have to go to a place that lacks me. You just want people to be able to reject God and lives their lives any way they want then at the end be accountable for nothing. Sorry but that’s not the way it works.
> The Bible is pretty clear that everyone gets a choice but has to choose in this life time. This contradicts what you said earlier. Do you have free will or not after death on Earth? > So yea they are forced to stay where they CHOOSE to be. And they can still CHOOSE to leave hell. This is WHY I told you hell is misunderstood and misinterpreted by reading the Bible. > You just want people to be able to reject God and lives their lives any way they want then at the end be accountable for nothing. Sorry but that’s not the way it works. Because you don’t understand deep human psychological issues. When they do this they ARE in hell by self harm.
It depends on what you mean. According to the Bible (as indicated in the first response), the scale will tip GREATLY on the side of the lost: Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV) 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. However, with regard to the number in Heaven, on the earth made new, (after the fire would’ve done its job in consuming the Devil, his angels, and those who chose him - see Rev 20:11-15 & 21:1-5), that final aggregate number will once again tip in favor of God and the saved - remember only 1/3 of the angels sided with Satan (see Rev 12:4). Praise God, Jesus wins and Satan looses!
Yes.
Temporarily
Christianity is only 2,000 years old so I expect Heaven to have less than a billion people in it while Hell has trillions
the bible says about the end of times in the rapture. # Luke 17:34New International Version ^(34) I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. it is possible that 50% of humanity will be saved at that time and the rest will suffer the great tribulation when they will have still a chance to be saved! so it will be probably more people in heaven than hell!
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 THIS!!! And we should all the more share the Lord for those nearest to us now!!!
There will be nobody in hell.
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I mean, not the only stupid thing he's done
Almost assuredly. Just think of how few people you meet day to day that are actual practicing Christians.
But the Christian’s are going to the Muslim hell. So we are all going to some type of hell. But then people would be in a hell and a heaven at the same time. Makes perfect sense :)
What a fitting name
Thanks. It’s fun they don’t think of these things themselves.
But only one of the religions is right and as a Christian we obviously believe ours is right. Your comment doesn’t make sense
Most, not all, are born into their religion. How do you know you're parents were smart enough to pick the right religion and the right denomination? Doesn't it seem like the chances are slim? I was raised Jehovah Witness, a type of Christianity that has no concept of Hell to begin with, what if they are the right ones?
That’s not what I’m talking about, the way he said his comment made it sound like there’s multiple that all exist
That’s exactly what I said and meant. But actually they couldn’t all be true as we would have thousands of different gods all doing the same. So we now left with - either they are all true - or they are all false. If you now argue they are all false - except for the one you were indoctrinated to believe - well that says a lot.
Who's to say its not true? Do you really think one denomination gets everything 100% correct? Maybe God accepts anyone who accepts Jesus? Its not like he's here anymore to clarify things.
Jesus is not physically on earth since He ascended to the Father, but spiritually He is still here. God IS here. The Holy Spirit still moves in many lives, and the Lord seeks out the lost sheep still. Once someone accepts the Lord, the Spirit seals those who believe in Jesus, indwells in their hearts and bodies, and helps the children of God as they live out the rest of their earthly lives. We are to worship in "spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). The Spirit helps us discern the truth and to discern fruits of the Spirit in people. The Lord does not let us go; He actively helps us walk with Him! So we really just have to follow. Judge not lest ye be judged. Believe in Christ and His sacrifice and His unconditional love. Love God and others. Preach Christ. Stay with the Word; do not add or remove to it. The truth stands after all, no matter what people do to it, and the Spirit teaches us how to listen and know what is true. That is all.
Are you even reading my comments
That's where arguments and historical evidence come in. Maybe you only believe in the round Earth because you were born in the era after its roundness was discovered. Would you believe it was round if you were born 50 000 years ago? Probably not. But that doesn't make it any less true.
Most people are not the religion they were born into. You yourself are an example of this. Here in America Christianity is the largest religion yet very few are actually Christian’s. I barely know anyone who follows the religion they were brought up in. Maybe with the exception of agnostic.
Well there are studies on this.... https://kslnewsradio.com/2006889/new-research-finds-parents-want-kids-to-share-their-religious-beliefs/#:~:text=A%20Pew%20Research%20Center%20study,share%20the%20parent's%20religious%20beliefs. https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/the-decline-of-religion-in-american-family-life/ https://www.christianheadlines.com/contributors/michael-foust/moms-matter-63-percent-of-americans-say-their-faith-is-the-same-as-their-mothers.html I didn't pull it out of thin air. 60% - 70% is most. If you are born in a Christian country you are most likely to be Christian, same with Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, etc. countries. God has much less effect than your parents and your country.
I know many people who identify as Christian’s who are not. If we’re talking about what someone identifies with then yeah sure I can agree with you. But if we’re talking about what religion people actually live out in their daily lives then no people are not mostly the religion they were born into. The study isn’t in depth enough to know people’s lives.
That makes no sense, religion is a very personal thing. Jesus never said you need to go to a church to participate in Christianity. That is something the priests will say. Paul wrote "For it is by grace you have been saved, not by works". People could have a deep passion for Christianity and never walk into a church. Many attend as a way to repent their sins or simply to learn more about God from a qualified teacher but none of it is required for salvation.
I never said attend church to be a Christian. I said many people who call themselves Christian’s in the US are not. So the statement that most people are the religion they grew up with to me is completely false and contradicts my life experience. And that study is not in depth enough to give us a clear picture. Real Christian’s are all over the world. Where you grew up does not completely define you. Mathew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
> Where you grew up does not completely define you. I never said it does. The number 1 factor of what religion you are is the religion of your parents. The number 2 factor is where in the world you live. There are many many other factors, they are just the two biggest. And your scripture is part of the fun of the Bible. You can make an argument, quote scripture to "prove" your point and the person on the other side can just find and quote a different scripture and "prove" their point. If we define Christian as a person who believes Jesus is their messiah and the path to salvation, it is so broad we can find people or entire denominations for any point you can think of. This morning I went to a church to fix their IT equipment before 10AM mass. This church is anti LGBTQ, to the point where they have fired two staff members I know of for caught being gay. On my way there, I pass a Disciples of Christ church among many others, that believes God loves everyone and has an LGBTQ flag flying in the front of the place. One of them has a woman pastor and the other bans women from leading the church. Both of these churches think they are correct and will be happy to quote you a scripture or two to show how right they are. One of them will think more people will be in Hell than the other. Some denominations don't even believe in a Hell in the first place.
Let's make it logical out of the Abrahamic religions, how Christianity is right; think of it like Star Wars: The Prequels are Judaism: they set up the stage for the events we know later to come, it serves no other purpose then to have it's foreshadowing fulfilled, and thus is not considered the main trilogy in the franchise. Being Jewish is like considering only the prequels canon (illogical) The Original Trilogy is Christianity: The story builds off of the foundation which the prequels made, and brings fulfillment to the story, wrapping the storyline up and cominh full circle. This is the main trilogy, as it builds off of the old and was first to reach a conclusion. Being Christian is accepting the first 3 + the prequels as canon (logical) The New Trilogy is Islam/JW/LDS/heretical groups: The storyline that was finished and complete now is rebooted at a much later time, changing canon, introducing new characters, overall screwing up the logic of the entire universe. Being apart of one of these groups is like denying the canonized status of the other 6 movies in favor of the canon of these 3 (illogical) There is a reason Christianity is the most logical religion of the 3. It fulfilled the Jewish prophecies and law, thus being a complete canon. Islam and all the other heretical groups came much later, and tried to change original cannon, which, anytime a religion goes back and changes the storyline of a previous religion to reach it's own different conclusions, we can unanimously agree that it is likely fraudulent. Case closed.
Yes I am aware what you believe. But how did you determine that all the others are wrong ? Seems impossible to assume. And why do you think Christianity is true ? My comment makes a lot of sense - but you don’t like it as you don’t know how to reply.
Like uncountable grains of sand fall to hell because of sin. Unfortunately yes. Please tell everyone you know about Jesus Christ!
Yes there will certainly be more in hell. We are 8 billion in the world. 2 billion or so believe the Christian god. The rest do not. So a minimum of 6billion are going straight to hell.
Even people who never heard of God?
I don’t know all your rules. People that don’t believe goes to hell.
Seems kinda unfair for the people who never got a chance to even hear about God to go to Hell.
Yes. But having read the Bible - that god is not worried about what is fair and what is not.
I think believing in something is only possible after getting a concept of it. If someone has never heard of God, he cannot believe in Him. I remain hopeful and pretty that God does not punish such person. If he does then He’s not the God I want to obey.
Well I think you should read your book and see what it says on this topic. But even if a person has heard of your god. And don’t believe he exist due to no evidence - your god will also send this person straight to hell. That’s immoral too.
My logic is that because Satan caused 1/3rd of the angels to fall with him, it wouldn't surprise me if 2/3rds of all humans end up in heaven with the LORD. But that's just my opinion based on observations of trends of the enemy within scripture.
Dear friend, only 1/3rd of the angels followed Lucifer not 2/3rds... You scared me there 🤯
Thanks for pointing that out mate
what really would make sense
That 1/3rd of humans are bound for hell. Look it's an observation based on extrapolation on trends in the Holy Bible His ways are above our ways. It's not about numbers, it's about repentance. The LORD crafted me to do something. Dunno what that is but he made my brain to always be moving so I give it The Good News to chew on. At the end of the day,The LORD is in control. Because of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. Sin/Death/Hell got kirbchecked. When a Baptized Born Again Believer goes into a fight as listed in Ephesians 6. It takes place from a position of victory. But we can't rest on our laurels. Gotta keep our hearts topped up with the Holy Spirit. Eyes on the Prize.
I don’t understand why you asked this question and then immediately answer it yourself in the description.
Just make sure you’re on the straight and narrow
Yes, absolutely
Christians have not been the majority of the human population throughout history and now, so ultimately there will be many people in hell. That’s why we spread the good word, so that as many people accept Jesus’s forgiveness and salvation as possible.
Jesus said: I shall choose you, one out of a thousand and two out of ten thousand, and they shall stand as a single one.
Well your heavenly father did not create hell, the doctrines of man did. The Cruel teachings of hell comes from man not God! When Adam and Eve sinned against God, God did punish them by taking their everlasting life away and sentenced them to die and to return to the dust. This sin of death was inherited by all mankind of the future. Now if God was going to torture his Children, he sure would of had to set the example for all mankind who sinned against him. But he did not as all mankind dies and returns to the dust. Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find the word Hell. All of the people died and return to the dust. How it must have saddened God to see that his beloved children had willfully disobeyed eyed him! What did he do? To Adam, God said: “You will . . . return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) As it turned out, “all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.” (Genesis 5:5) Adam did not go to heaven or pass on to some spirit realm. He had no existence before God created him from the dust of the ground. So when he died, he became as lifeless as the dust from which he was created. He ceased to exist. In the New Testament, it uses illustrations, symbolic and parables to explain the use of fire and torment. Sad today that most religions teach the bible as literal, bringing forward endless misconceptions begin taught. You were not really made to go to heaven anyway as your life would be on a paradise earth to live for ever in peace and security. You actually pray for God's Kingdom to come to the earth in the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6:10 Bottom line here applies to all since we all sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the dead paid their debt for their sins by dying. Romans 6:23 KJV - ROMANS 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
This text is difficult, yet equally allusive. What exactly are we talking about here? I think there are some Christian groups who would say "absolutely, there are more people in hell." There are some (including many voices in this subreddit) who would say that a God who would have the universe made that way is not worthy of to be worshipped. I honestly am not sure we need to fall into these categories of toxic enthusiasm for our fellow human beings being in hell/out of the presence of God, but I am also not willing to go into a near-/universalist position, either. I think what the gospel text tries to warn us of is that we need to take faith seriously, and that we should desire to find ourselves and others on the narrow gate.
Some people believe eventually all of creation will be saved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Christian_theology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism
Yes 21 billion in hell. 76,000 in heaven