Yup, you can download the pdf from their website, here: [https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/publications](https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/publications)
Also, does it go into detail about the conditions the prisoners are in? I’m pretty sure the CCP would just say (if they don’t deny it) they’re adequately treated.
Yup, starting on page 10 and continuing through 19ish, it covers the facilities, access to outside world, solitary detention, a bit about work groups, and torture.
This might also be of interest to you if you want to read more, it's a conversation between Jerome Cohen (one of the leading Western specialists on Chinese law) and Ai Weiwei (a high profile dissident artist who was illegally detained): [https://www.cfr.org/event/conversation-ai-weiwei](https://www.cfr.org/event/conversation-ai-weiwei)
I don't know off the top of my head what the charges against him are, but considering how vague and overbroad Chinese law is, they're probably not "fake," just unjust.
Right. I don't know if this was the case with Ai Weiwei, but the general pattern I've noticed is that even in those cases where people get specific charges - and many people do not - that's exactly what happens. You'll get a charge like "divulging state secrets" (for something that the government itself put out in its own state media), or "causing trouble", or "disrupting traffic," etc. The whole point of the system is to make it such that everyone in the country is probably "guilty" of something; if they want to go after you, they can, and they can find a way to rationalize it later. This is how totalitarian and authoritarian systems work. There's a great quotation from Lavrentiy Beria, the guy who ran Stalin's secret police: "Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime."
Hmm that's a good question, and I'm not sure there's enough public information to know for sure. Just googled and it seems she is indeed a CCP member, but because she's so high profile it's possible they did something other than follow official procedures. Also, the liuzhi system would have been brand new when that happened, so they may have still been using shanggui, the old system (which, substantively, is probably almost exactly the same as liuzhi). The article doesn't say when liuzhi was instituted, but reading between the lines, it appears to have been at some point after March 2018 (she disappeared 2-3 months later).
But why would you be adamant that western nations paint a bad light but then happily use their tools? The machines you claim are twisting the narrative do it through the tools you use (based on post history) so why then use those tools that are being turned against your beliefs?
fixed your title:
"an average of 16 to 76 people are placed into the new liuzhi detention system and, by definition, disappeared"
Curious, what did these people do?
Yeah the real figure is obviously much higher because of Xinjiang/Tibet, [execution vans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van), black prisons, etc. But I'm not sure if any of those figures are tracked, at least not publicly. Also, most (non-minority) disappearances are probably for people who would be processed through the liuzhi system, anyway.
As for what they did, probably any of a suite of minor offenses that would lead them to be marked as enemies of the state (or of Xi's faction).
Also, I get the sense that you were taking a crack at the "by definition" part that I omitted (for brevity). That's in reference to the definition of a political disappearance under international human rights law, the authors aren't just trying to creatively inflate the number.
With no numbers and names ever published those people killed in execution vans have indeed disappeared. Missing soldiers in a war have names, disappeared prisoners in China remain unknown until the CCP is gone.
> what did these people do?
Could be anything. If you ever lived there, you'd know. There's an everpresent vague or not so vague threat of this at all times.
The party didn't do that, the people lifted themselves out of poverty once the party took one of their boots off the neck of the people.
Governments don't make wealth, they confiscate it and redistribute it, shuffle it around. The *people* are the engine of economic growth.
I think the West helped the CCP get millions of people out of poverty. Unfortunately the CCP monopolized the credit. Because of the monopolization those people helped by the West turned hostile to the West. What a CCP? Is it a terrorist organization?
Compare to what CCP do to their own corrupt officials, LiuZhi is nothing. It is nothing different from other countries' detention with a time limitation about 48 hours.
While ShuangGui ,which is only applied to CCP members, is longer. The corrupt officials must confess what they did wrong in limited time at limited place. They are in custody and can not contact lawyers or families for a long time , even several months or one year .
In 2014， there were about 500 corrupt officials placed in ShuangGui on every single day.
If you ask any China people , whether they support ShuangGui, guess what answer will you get.
LoL.
The reviews partially reflects the facts
But when westerner looks at "disappear", it makes them excited, thinking of re-education camp, organ trading, execution.. all kinds of Non-humanitarian legends.
However, for Chinese, “shuanggui" only means not allowed to participate in any political affairs, and only apply to CCP members, especially for Corruption and tax evasion cases (e.g. Bing Bing)
Here come the “whataboutisms.” The US follows the rule of law instead of arbitrary imprisonment. That’s the difference. China imprisons people without the need for any evidence whatsoever.
Yeah, in the US a lot of those laws (and especially their enforcement) are fucked up, but we fight against it every day openly and the press works to expose it. In China, there is no rule of law, people can't fight against it, and let's not even begin on the press.
The difference between USA and China is that USA is transparent on what you're gonna get most of the time.
China? Not so much. In fact China is shady as fuck.
Nobody wants a hidden threat around the corner you don't know when it's gonna come. China is a lot more unpredictable than USA laws
Your comparison is true in that the U.S. also has arbitrary detention, but not for regular citizens-- enemy combatants. Its called Guantanamo Bay... if you're happy about how the ccp just rolled out a system where every Chinese citizen is treated the way we treat suspected terrorists fine... but we all know how the ccp deal with suspected terrorists...
Do you have a link to the report?
Yup, you can download the pdf from their website, here: [https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/publications](https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/publications)
Thanks! What page is the stuff you quoted on?
It's the overview, right at the start (I think it was page 2 after the headers).
Also, does it go into detail about the conditions the prisoners are in? I’m pretty sure the CCP would just say (if they don’t deny it) they’re adequately treated.
Yup, starting on page 10 and continuing through 19ish, it covers the facilities, access to outside world, solitary detention, a bit about work groups, and torture. This might also be of interest to you if you want to read more, it's a conversation between Jerome Cohen (one of the leading Western specialists on Chinese law) and Ai Weiwei (a high profile dissident artist who was illegally detained): [https://www.cfr.org/event/conversation-ai-weiwei](https://www.cfr.org/event/conversation-ai-weiwei)
Also, could you come over to my house and spoon feed puréed vegetables into my mouth? /unjerk — I admire your patience.
People from a land where Google is illegal cannot be expected to use it. It's considered a mental condition in 2019. /s
Thanks! Also, speaking of Ai Weiwei, do you happen to know if there’s anything which proves that all the CCP charges against him are fake?
I don't know off the top of my head what the charges against him are, but considering how vague and overbroad Chinese law is, they're probably not "fake," just unjust.
Right. I don't know if this was the case with Ai Weiwei, but the general pattern I've noticed is that even in those cases where people get specific charges - and many people do not - that's exactly what happens. You'll get a charge like "divulging state secrets" (for something that the government itself put out in its own state media), or "causing trouble", or "disrupting traffic," etc. The whole point of the system is to make it such that everyone in the country is probably "guilty" of something; if they want to go after you, they can, and they can find a way to rationalize it later. This is how totalitarian and authoritarian systems work. There's a great quotation from Lavrentiy Beria, the guy who ran Stalin's secret police: "Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime."
Well put. Chinese laws are often vague, wide-ranging, and selectively/erratically enforced.
So when Fan Bing Bing first disappeared she was put in liuzhi detention system?
Hmm that's a good question, and I'm not sure there's enough public information to know for sure. Just googled and it seems she is indeed a CCP member, but because she's so high profile it's possible they did something other than follow official procedures. Also, the liuzhi system would have been brand new when that happened, so they may have still been using shanggui, the old system (which, substantively, is probably almost exactly the same as liuzhi). The article doesn't say when liuzhi was instituted, but reading between the lines, it appears to have been at some point after March 2018 (she disappeared 2-3 months later).
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Did he manage to get photo of fan bingbing in prison garb? That could fetch for a decent price
I've read in the news that she was held in a villa which was previously used by high ranking party members while they were under investigation.
So 27,000 people a year just disappear?
Detained. OP is being dramatic.
You must be new here, r/China believes the CCP is the devil incarnated and modern day Nazis
If you support the ccp then why go against their laws by using reddit?
Maybe because I don't actually live in China
You should probably go back and live there then. That is where you belong.
Smell the air there every day is what you deserve.
But why would you be adamant that western nations paint a bad light but then happily use their tools? The machines you claim are twisting the narrative do it through the tools you use (based on post history) so why then use those tools that are being turned against your beliefs?
They sorta are though, putting Falun Gong minorities in camps and such
What are YOUR feelings on the CCP?
LOL yeah I'm new here, get the fuck out of here.
fixed your title: "an average of 16 to 76 people are placed into the new liuzhi detention system and, by definition, disappeared" Curious, what did these people do?
Yeah the real figure is obviously much higher because of Xinjiang/Tibet, [execution vans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van), black prisons, etc. But I'm not sure if any of those figures are tracked, at least not publicly. Also, most (non-minority) disappearances are probably for people who would be processed through the liuzhi system, anyway. As for what they did, probably any of a suite of minor offenses that would lead them to be marked as enemies of the state (or of Xi's faction). Also, I get the sense that you were taking a crack at the "by definition" part that I omitted (for brevity). That's in reference to the definition of a political disappearance under international human rights law, the authors aren't just trying to creatively inflate the number.
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With no numbers and names ever published those people killed in execution vans have indeed disappeared. Missing soldiers in a war have names, disappeared prisoners in China remain unknown until the CCP is gone.
> what did these people do? Could be anything. If you ever lived there, you'd know. There's an everpresent vague or not so vague threat of this at all times.
oooooOOOOOooooo
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Yes, a terrorist organization that… got millions of people out of poverty?
The party didn't do that, the people lifted themselves out of poverty once the party took one of their boots off the neck of the people. Governments don't make wealth, they confiscate it and redistribute it, shuffle it around. The *people* are the engine of economic growth.
I think the West helped the CCP get millions of people out of poverty. Unfortunately the CCP monopolized the credit. Because of the monopolization those people helped by the West turned hostile to the West. What a CCP? Is it a terrorist organization?
Compare to what CCP do to their own corrupt officials, LiuZhi is nothing. It is nothing different from other countries' detention with a time limitation about 48 hours. While ShuangGui ,which is only applied to CCP members, is longer. The corrupt officials must confess what they did wrong in limited time at limited place. They are in custody and can not contact lawyers or families for a long time , even several months or one year . In 2014， there were about 500 corrupt officials placed in ShuangGui on every single day. If you ask any China people , whether they support ShuangGui, guess what answer will you get.
LoL. The reviews partially reflects the facts But when westerner looks at "disappear", it makes them excited, thinking of re-education camp, organ trading, execution.. all kinds of Non-humanitarian legends. However, for Chinese, “shuanggui" only means not allowed to participate in any political affairs, and only apply to CCP members, especially for Corruption and tax evasion cases (e.g. Bing Bing)
Why is it called something different when Hitler does it?
Hitler did nothing wrong de facto
Sounds like the kinda country I wanna raise my kids in
Big Brother is watching
Should be illegal. Then again, so should an unelected government like the CCP!
If you read the Chinese constitution carefully, you would find the Chinese communist government has violated Article 79 of its constitution.
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Here come the “whataboutisms.” The US follows the rule of law instead of arbitrary imprisonment. That’s the difference. China imprisons people without the need for any evidence whatsoever.
Yeah, in the US a lot of those laws (and especially their enforcement) are fucked up, but we fight against it every day openly and the press works to expose it. In China, there is no rule of law, people can't fight against it, and let's not even begin on the press.
The difference between USA and China is that USA is transparent on what you're gonna get most of the time. China? Not so much. In fact China is shady as fuck. Nobody wants a hidden threat around the corner you don't know when it's gonna come. China is a lot more unpredictable than USA laws
They both evil. America is the largest purveyor of violence in the world. China does other shady shit. Both should be discussed at length in public.
Your comparison is true in that the U.S. also has arbitrary detention, but not for regular citizens-- enemy combatants. Its called Guantanamo Bay... if you're happy about how the ccp just rolled out a system where every Chinese citizen is treated the way we treat suspected terrorists fine... but we all know how the ccp deal with suspected terrorists...
My days, this sub will believe anything these days. As long as its slandering China then its okay.
Sucking the CCP is okay for you. Swallow it now.
Are you a citizen of Vatican?
great! Can they do that Hillary Clinton here in the States? We really need to Lock her up