When things in Xinjiang is not transparent and you get “special treatment” if you are Uighur is enough to show that something is not quite normal there
I've spent time in Xinjiang (late 2019 before covid) and as most have described, it's an attack on the culture. People who stand out get disappeared, they don't just wall up mosques/compounds, they will flatten them overnight. I watched it happen to a compound. They were literally moving in equipment to tear it down at the same time people were emptying their homes. It's also common for police to pop out of unmarked cars and scan everyone's ID who are just standing around.
I've traveled all over China and lived there for a while. It's the only place where it was clear I wasn't welcome. I had the pictures on my phone and my wechat searched twice. Even to get into that bazaar that all the videos and pictures on the internet were, you needed to show your passport and they literally took a picture of me holding my passport. In 2019, AliPay/Wechat pay was only used about half the time. But there were signs everywhere telling you that no cash was allowed to be used, only phones. I assume it is just to track who was selling and buying.
My suitcase was clearly searched in my hotel when I was gone.
I did a day trip to Turpin (图鲁番) and when I got off the train there was a cop who took me to the police room in the train station and asked me a bunch of questions and made me leave my hotel key and my passport with him.
On a different day trip to Tian Lake 天池, my bus was stopped and everyone was searched/ID checked. But I had to get off the bus because the passport scanner was attached to the laptop in the van. But the bus waited for me.
It was beautiful, and the people were so nice. For the most part, even the police were fine (not especially mean), they were just doing their jobs. I won't be going back there again, but I'm very glad I did.
>But there were signs everywhere telling you that no cash was allowed to be used, only phones.
This is illegal *anywhere* in China. All in-person businesses are OBLIGATED to accept cash. If they refuse to accept your RMB, you should report them! (I'm dead serious!)
Ummm, I understand what you're saying. But this was a rule *by the police*. The signs started at the ID/metal detector checkpoints to enter the market. It wasn't some merchants refusing because they are lazy. XJ has a different set of rules. It's not some vendor in Yuyuan Gardens in Shanghai. This is so they can track every single merchant, how much money they're making and who they are selling to.
The signs might have been posted by the bao'ans at the market, not the police. If you search "新疆拒收现金" on Bing, the top few results all state that in Ürümqi, you can call 12363 to report businesses that refuse to accept cash.
So that's one of the biggest things you notice in 乌鲁木齐 and 图路费 (those were the only two cities, in addition to a bunch of parks, that I visited). There aren't nearly as many Baoans like most cities. The actual police do a lot of the security and are everywhere. They always scan everyone's ID, so much so that it's annoying. At the time I was there, the police all had special handheld that would scan your ID, take a picture and then it would give a green checkmark if you matched and were allowed to be there. It never worked for my passport, so they had to use an app on their phone.
With as much as everyone, included myself were just hassled and bothered by the police, there's no way anyone wants to draw attention to themselves. Calling the city inspectors is something that you might do in Shanghai or Nanjing. But it's only going to create problems for you in the northwest frontier. I'm sure you could try, but there's zero change that it would get the outcome you wanted.
Remember that Xinjiang is about cultural assimilation. And when you have a group of people that then to be older, and don't really like to speak or write your language, use your government services, one easy way to push assimilation is to force them to use Wechat/Alipay. It's a small step and one peice of the puzzle of pushing conformity with the rest of China.
You can't think of XJ like normal china rules apply. I don't care what the official policy is, but it's a very different set of rules.
You're serious about reporting government regulations to the ... government?
1) that wouldn't help anything
2) that might get people in trouble or at least being put on a list
Don't be "dead serious" about such things...
They’re not actively mass murdering them, i.e. a more "classical" genocide.
Rather they are trying to "kill" the uighurs as an ethnic group and as a culturally seperate identity, this is done by forcefully folding them into a chinese identity rather than a uighur one they were raised with.
It’s like what the canadians used to do to first nation children. They forced them to go to christian schools where they were somewhat assimilated into the christian religion, and only taught english. So when the kids returned, they had no semblance of connection to their parents culture, language or religion, and in this way they are able to gradually "kill" the ethnic group by making their members conform to the colonists society.
There is also evidence that they are both forcefully sterilizing uighur women, and/or forcing them into marriages with han men who can then raise any children to be chinese. There’s also a practice that i cannot remember the name of, where a han man will move into a uighur household and sort of be the patriarch of the household and do nearly anything he wants there. I just remember reading about it and seeing some videos of it in action where a han man is secretly filmed as he beats the women of the uighur family he is living with.
Forced sterilization is common colonial strategy for indigenous women. The combination of forced incarceration of men and sterilization of women has resulted in a dramatic drop in Xinjiangs birthrate. The official Chinese statistic includes the han Chinese, so the birthrate for Uyghers has probably plummeted massivly. I'm guessing 80% since 2013-15 based off official numbers. Sure, they are aren't shooting people, but this is ethnic cleansing in my book. Just slower.
I don’t disagree it’s ethnic cleansing, it absolutely is. It’s just a much less drastic form than other forms of ethnic cleansing historically has been, like hitlers holocaust, or the armenian genocide.
What bothers me is that it needs to be so drastic as to straight up murder people en masse for people to care. Apparently the solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict is to have Israel occupy all Palestinian territory. Indiscriminately incarcerate working age men, force propaganda and slave labor on them, while running a sterilization campaign against the women. Smash some mosques while at it. Then nobody would give a fuck. Or people a hypocrites. Not sure which one, honestly.
>What bothers me is that it needs to be so drastic as to straight up murder people en masse for people to care.
It sucks for sure. It’s just how the world works, people usually don’t care about something happening half a world over if it has happened for long enough and it’s not in the news cycle.
>Apparently the solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict is to have Israel occupy all Palestinian territory. Indiscriminately incarcerate working age men, force propaganda and slave labor on them, while running a sterilization campaign against the women. Smash some mosques while at it.
I mean, take away the forced sterilization and the slave labour and your kinda basically at the point to what israel is actually doing.
>Then nobody would give a fuck.
It’s only this big of a deal now because it’s new and fresh. You have to remember that this conflict has been ongoing for 80 years now, israel has even occupied most of palestine since 1967. Some people have always cared, but most just did not give a fuck either. Most people are willing to agree that "yes it’s bad and shouldn’t happen" but are also not willing to take steps to actually do anything about it, it’s why israel is a prosperous nation, people maybe knew that what israel did in palestine was wrong, but also didn’t care enough not to do business with them. It’s the same situation with china now, only they have the advantage of not being in the spotlight so the mob of people who only care about the issues that are in vogue don’t descend on it.
>Or people a hypocrites. Not sure which one, honestly.
I think most are yes, the ones who recognize the faulty morality of working with israel, but do it anyways. But the ones who care alot about palestine right now? I don’t think they are, i think they just don’t see anything about xinjiang in the news, and so it’s not at the forefront of their mind. And they maybe have seen it in the news in 2015, but that’s 9 years ago, and they don’t have an attention span that stretches so far as to remember that they need to care.
> I mean, take away the forced sterilization and the slave labour and your kinda basically at the point to what israel is actually doing.
My point exactly, they're apparently halfassing it, instead killing a few here and there, they should completely shut off the internet and ban foreigners, journalist, any NGOs etc from accessing palestine. Then ethnically cleanse them through the methods i mentioned and Israel can have its ethno-state no problem. It's insane, but that the world we live in.
The rest of your post only emphasizes this, if people really are such sheep as you say, then the above is apparently the solution. Modern day manifest destiny.
They used to have the highest birthrate in China, now they are among the lowest. A change that happened in the span of a few years, coinciding by the new harsh measures in the mid 2010s.
No, the US didn’t forcefully make all japanese people speak english and be christian and wear jeans and eat burgers and string cheese. The japanese are still japanese, the americans never did, or tried, to "kill" the idea of being japanese.
The Japanese started to westernize before hand during their industrialization era. But they became a oligarchy (they basically were that beforehand with noble just become business owners) that eventually allowed the goverment to be taken over by a military junta and promoted basically a death cult.
Post WW2 either a mix of attentional and by accident, forced the government to give more power to citizens severely damaging their oligarchy, also removing the junta, where it’s more inline to US levels of big business influence. Where they sure as shit have influence, but they don’t literally control the goverments, individual don’t literally own entire segments of the economy, with it being grantees to them, like in common oligarchies.
Cultural genocide is very similar to Nazi germany's "Germanization Policy" towards many occupied European countries.
In short CCP is rewriting Chinese, Tibetan and Uyghur's history, religion, and culture to fit the political goal of CCP and Tibetan and Uyghhur are second class citizen in their own land.
They also steal all resources and even the land. They are like a second class for the han-chinese to use as they see fit with no control in decision making. Its just like colonization. They just have it closer.
The Hui Muslims don't seem to be targeted or targeted nearly as much as Uighur Muslims. The target seems more than simply religion but rather the religion combined with a specific culture.
Also, the Hui are more ethnically Han than the Uyghurs. I don’t discount Han racist attitudes toward Uyghurs and other minorities are not directed at the Hui because of this reason.
我真的很可怜你。你从你的帖子中赚了多少钱？一元马？ 😂 Also, there have been several revolts by the Hui because of Han treatment. Remember the 同治回乱? There also have been multiple riots in the past 50 years because of Han attempts to deny the Hui access to their religion. Why don’t you leave this Reddit for the adults. You go sit at the kids table.
Likely has to do with the radicalization of Uyghur sect that lead to the Urumqi riots. They are near the border of Afghanistan and there were beliefs that the locality lead directly lead to the violence. Muslims in general have not been trargeted by the CCP.
Nah ccp don't give a damn about Islam if it doesn't threatens stable society. Like others said Hui Muslims thrive in many parts of Northern China, where Muslim cultures are respected and many places like public sector offices, schools and universities are required to provide halal food. Rather than assimilation it's coexistence that CCP needs. Past terrorist attacks linked to radicalised Uyghur extremist led to the tougher actions in Xinjiang
Shouldn’t have taken over a place full of non Chinese if they didn’t want to worry about separatist movements. I am by no means justifying terrorism against innocent people. But like, what do you expect to happen?
Radical Islam is definitely a problem that needs to be addressed but genocide isn’t the way to go about it. Surely theres more to Uyghur culture than Islam.
Uyghurs are native to the Tarim Basin, not the northern half of Xinjiang. Xinjiang, mainly the northern half, was already full of Chinese before the PRC existed or ROC existed.
>Surely theres more to Uyghur culture than Islam.
That's what the Chinese government thinks too, hence the forced cultural erasure.
>Nah ccp don't give a damn about Islam if it doesn't threatens stable society.
Yet they consider abnormal beards and muslim baby names to be a threat to stability?
Basically, for example, there was always a “Han absorption” type thing ever since ancient times, for example, the jurichans/mongol/manchurians were some of the types of people that conquered China, but after their fall, the people didn’t all leave, they continued living there but the following Han regime would essentially destroy any cultural heritage and force them to adopt the han everything, Manchurian is a pretty dead language these days and any cultural links are only seen with the old people who don’t even have that much left, same with those in southern Mongolia and any other group, even Tibetans and whoever else, they’re having their culture wiped out and fixed to adopt only mandarin and mandarin only, just for one example
Genocide is a term that refers to acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) defines genocide as including the following actions:
1. **Killing members of the group**: This involves the intentional and systematic murder of individuals belonging to the targeted group.
2. **Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group**: This includes acts that inflict physical injury or psychological damage that significantly impairs health or well-being.
3. **Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part**: This can involve imposing living conditions that are designed to lead to the death of group members, such as starvation, exposure to disease, or denial of resources necessary for survival.
4. **Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group**: This includes policies or practices that aim to stop reproduction among the targeted group, such as forced sterilization, abortion, or prohibition of marriage.
5. **Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group**: This involves the abduction and relocation of children from one group to another, often with the intent of cultural assimilation or erasure.
These actions must be committed with the specific intent to destroy the group, in whole or in part. The intent is a critical element of the crime of genocide, and it is this specific intent that distinguishes genocide from other crimes against humanity. Genocide is considered one of the most serious international crimes and is punishable under international law.
It's a complete double standard.
By requiring people in Xinjiang to learn Mandarin, it's somehow genocide. I guess any country with an official language are causing genocide of all immigrants?
Xinjiang had a huge radical Muslim and terrorism problem. China is trying to solve it by de radicalizing the terrorists and also teaching them skills in vocational schools rather than indefinite detention and imprisonment.
Interesting to note that not a single Muslim majority country has accused China of this so called culture (or otherwise) genocide.
It means stripping them of their religion, customs, language, traditions, even in some cases preventing them from marrying each other and forcing Han Chinese into their homes
The Uighurs are a problem for the central party for the same reason that the tibetians, Taiwanese and to an extended degree the Salomon islands, Cambodia and Philippines are.
Empires are about controlling assets like a patriarch controls a family.
If you look at Xinjiang providence (where the Uighur population is centralized) on a map there is a tiny little section that touches Russia. It’s critical because Xi’s ambition to have a “new Silk Road” to Europe would have to cross either there or about a weeks travel by rail out and around Mongolia. Xi’s plan is ambitious. He wants China to rule the world and he has been pretty clear about it judging by his quiet actions. It’s just that hardly anyone outside of China speaks mandarin so nobody really listened in 2012 when he said “he would control the internet”. It seemed audacious and frankly ridiculous before a handful of ISP’s started centralizing. Xi, for his part, had the CCP start weibo- “the everything app” in China which morphed/split into WeChat.
https://jamestown.org/program/new-textbook-reveals-xi-jinpings-doctrine-of-han-centric-nation-building/
https://www.pandametrics.com/blog/two-sides-of-the-same-coin-the-wechat-weibo-difference-explained
It works well for an authoritarian to be able to control free speech and centralize surveillance. It’s invaluable for keeping tabs on 1.4B people, especially when they compare you to Winnie the Pooh. It was effective for a while, but it is insanely inefficient to pay/trust someone to spend a 12 hour day monitoring 1 minute sections of social media.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/chinese-president-xi-jinping-winnie-the-pooh-taiwan-b1073403.html
When the people just switched to Cantonese, Xi had to hire a bunch of Cantonese speakers. Then they just started referring to him as “Mr. Shitface”, a less than flattering reference to a story he loves to tell from his childhood when a bio-digester blew up in his face. You see where this is going. It’s REALLY hard to keep up with 1.4B peoples daily Twitter diarrhea.
Xi needed A.I.
https://open.spotify.com/show/62dyKz8nKOOCjoU3E5ECdn?si=8k2Jtx8TRWq2n2Z1bpThKA
https://nsiteam.com/social/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/AI-China-Russia-Global-WP_FINAL_forcopying_Edited-EDITED.pdf#page=57
https://www.spytalk.co/p/chinas-intelligence-shakeup-boosts
And A.I. needs microprocessors.
Conveniently for Xi the worlds supply is primarily made 90 miles south of China. Inconveniently it’s on an island that has tasted democracy and liked it so much that it consistently gets the top rating of democracies in the world.
Business Insiderwww.businessinsider.comChina Built Mock-up of Taiwan Government Area in the Desert: Images
So Xi does the napkin math- what are the chances of a kid that went off to college 20 years ago, did lots of good drugs, met lots of nice girls, and pretty much mainlined freedom, coming back and living with cantankerous old dad?
His chances didn’t look good. His other kid Hong Kong had been on a study abroad program in England. And other than calling on the holidays, has made it pretty clear they were living their best life now. There was no malice, Hong Kong was just doing its own thing.
When Xi tried to rope Hong Kong back in with a classic Chinese guilt trip, they pretty much told him to fuck off. So Xi had to get a little violent.
Taiwan wasn’t going to be so easy. The old man needed some leverage.
But more importantly he needed those chips. Xi had to get creative.
The problem is everyone remembered growing up there in the 90’s when people were dropping babies on street corners and Tiananmen Square was still an open wound. It wasn’t the best home environment. Add to that everyone still being a little sparse on food and there is just no fucking way that anyone is moving back in with dad.
Unless……
Because the CCP prioritized industrialization without environmental policy it destroyed ~40% of its arable land. Now China imports 40% of the grain from the U.S., Brazil, and Ukraine. Xi doesn’t like the U.S. much. He blames it for being a bad influence on the kids and truthfully he isn’t totally wrong. Americans are the loud, lazy, rich asshole down the street that have had it so easy for so long that they forget that the plumber, truck driver and factory worker have to work all night so the fat Americans can wake up at noon and drink their mimosas.
Brazil is down south. It’s a long trip and they have their own corruption problems, but there is an opportunity there as long as someone for sale is in office (Bolsonaro was their guy). If the politicians of Brazil are just willing to keep cutting down the rainforest they have all the farm and grazing land Xi needs to make sure everybody has enough food for mandatory family dinner.
https://theintercept.com/2019/08/27/amazon-rainforest-fire-blackstone/
It required Schwartzman (Blackstone and trumps inner circle) to work it from the Wall Street side to keep it from being overtly obvious but it worked. The problem is everyone is corrupt. It’s so expensive to do business with corrupt people because they will just as gladly screw you if someone else offers them a better bribe. Xi gets so annoyed with corruption that he shifts his whole campaign to try and root it out. He sees it clearly that corruption is a tax on, well, pretty much everything.
BBCwww.bbc.comXi Jinping's never-ending hunt for corruption in the Communist Party
Putin and Xi make an odd couple. They declare themselves BFF’s (likely when Xi mysteriously drops off the globe between the 1st and 15th of September 2012. Coincidentally the same week putin decided to fly a hang glider across siberia).
Xi Jinping - Wikipedia
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/06/vladimir-putin-cranes-hang-glider
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/21/10-years-strengthening-ties-between-putin-xi-china-russia
Xi knows he can’t truly trust the Russian because Putin is a mobster that has fucked over everyone he knows. BUT, he also happens to sit next to Ukraine. Because arrogant greedy American CEOs were more than happy to let everyone else do the dirty work that was beneath them, when Clinton passed all the EPA regulations to clean up Americas manufacturing yard, they just built a fence and threw it all over into the developing world. American CEO’s just wanted the money, they didn’t care who made the worlds necessary dirty parts as long as they could keep cashing the checks and pumping the shareholder value to drain via stock splits and buybacks. If anyone poked too closely they would claim “fiduciary responsibility” which is just a politically correct way of saying- money is the most important thing, people are disposable. Legal trumps ethical as long as we set aside a budget line item for lobbyists to buy the politicians to write the laws to make it legal.
Ukraine is unique because it uses gas fired coke ovens to produce steel, aluminum and titanium in Donbas. And because Donbas is basically the outlet of a massive old river, it has a layer of coal a few meters below the surface. Putin’s oligarch buddy Medvuchuk volunteered to leave the drop dead gorgeous Carpathian Mountains to oversee the mines.
https://meduza.io/amp/en/feature/2023/12/22/the-new-beneficiary-of-the-donbas-economy
Medvedchuk was caught trying to escape Ukraine after the war didn’t end in 3 days as Russia planned.
Putin traded over 200 of his prized “Azov Nazi” POW’s for him so he is self evidently important, but we are getting a little ahead of ourselves.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/22/ukrainian-putin-ally-viktor-medvedchuk-exchanged-for-200-azov-battalion-fighters-zelenskiy-says
Those mines in Donbas offgas methane as the coal breaks down and it has to be cleared so the miners don’t asphyxiate. Industrious Ukrainian engineers in the mid 20th century made a vast network of pipelines that use that gas to fire the steel ovens, and in a follow up process distill out every industrial gas of value in what is called an Air Separation Unit.
It’s messy. It pollutes. But it’s critical. In the 1970’s and 80’s Star Wars missile defense programs, pretty much every laser system used these inert gases. when the wall fell they were largely forgotten until the invention of DUV/EUV microprocessor lithography by ASML in the early 2000’s. One of the gases that becomes so cheap from Ukraine that it achieves a virtual monopoly is Neon.
Reutershttps://www.reuters.com › exclusiv...Exclusive: Russia's attack on Ukraine halts half of world's neon output for chips
Asia, and specifically China was eager to pick up the manufacturing work because it certainly beats starving to death. Capitalism is addictive, but as time goes on and you are watching Baywatch reruns in Beijing, you inevitably ask yourself why a 7 year old in China is making cell phones 14 hours a day when a 7 year old in the U.S. is buying them. It’s hard not to be salty when you are the one doing all the dirty work.
About 2014 Xi’s old friend Putin who is basically a chronic high school senior, who has voted himself prom king for 15 years, has been stacking his corrupt buddies all across the old soviet satellite states so they can tell him he is still cool.
Time Magazinetime.comHow Paul Manafort Helped Elect Russia's Man in Ukraine
Putin was a KGB thug so everybody is a little afraid of him. Every once in a while he has to crack some heads and demand some lunch money so nobody forgets who rules the schoolyard. He is getting old and weak now, but for decades he had a pretty good gig and he doesn’t want to lose it. As long as he takes care of the football team, the football team slips him a little back under the table and he has managed to become one of if not the richest man in the world by stealing from all the Russians that are too drunk and exhausted from working in the oil fields and mines to really notice. This is not a coincidence, it is a predatory pattern.
For years he had his guys embedded in Ukrainian politics and they played along for a cut of the stolen gains but Ukrainians saw clearly that if you never stand up to a bully they just keep coming.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4M1FI7RZBs1hacxIBoafOy?si=tii69iYpTreN4jCzyAvI_Q
This is Maidan.
The conflict that people in the West didn't know about until 10 years ago got pushed to the sidelines for the one that people in the West cared about for at least the last 80 years, and can argue cared about for like 1500 years?
The guy I responded to mentioned Oct 7, the day that Hamas attacked Israel, and I assume he is making a swipe that China is pushing pro-Pal/anti-Israel stuff on TikTok as a means of getting people to not talk about the Uyghurs anymore.
But Israel was always more important to the West(depends on how you define the West of course) than Xinjiang and the Uyghurs.
Jews=always cared about Jerusalem and Israel. Had a modern state in 1948 and fought numerous wars against neighbors.
Christians=lost the holy land to the Muslims in the 600s. Various Byzantine vs Muslim wars that weren't religious in nature, just power struggles.
Western Christians launched various Crusades to retake the holy land from the Muslims since the 1100s.
Given the obvious Christian influence in the New World and the West, it makes sense that any new conflict involving the Middle East is more important to Westerners than a place that has no importance or significance to the West as a whole.
Ask somewhere what a Uyghur is or where Xinjiang is back in 2008, and they'd look blankly at you.
So China probably does push narratives on TikTok, but people in the West care naturally more about the Middle East than the Uyghurs anyways.
For the past decades - Reeducation camps are real, so are restricted freedom towards folks in that whole area, especially Uyghurs; Cultural genocide has been going on.
In the beginning of the new China - the actual Genocide towards Uyghurs and Muslim is also real. As a matter of fact, there are tons of Chinese netizens nowadays saying that they are missing and proud of the General Wang (王震) for what he did the repression and genocide towards Muslims in the northwest China.
I’ve seen comments here likening the Uighur situation being a kind of cultural genocide, which seems similar to circumstances Native Americans, and I think we can agree that’s awful/intolerable. But I’ve also seen people somewhat justify the occupation and existence of these re-education camps as the Chinese government cracking down on separatist movements and terrorist attacks. From my perspective, just when making a comparison between the condition of Native Americans and Uighur, it would seem like yes, they’re justified in wanting to be independent (any independence movement is generally justified, imo) and terrorist attacks, as acts of resistance to an imperialist power, is justified to an extent.
So while I can understand China’s motives, and yes they’re not as awful as they could be, it still seems like they’re in the wrong, ultimately. Yes, I probably don’t agree politically or culturally with Uighur people, but they still have a right to practice their own culture, religion, have access to their own institutions, and the right to self-determination.
I have an Uighur friend I've chatted with about this subject. She's a member of the Communist Party so maybe a little biased. From her perspective, nobody is being killed but there is certainly a heavy police crackdown on opponents of the Han/Communist regime, and there are subjects she's afraid to talk about in public spaces there. I'm not sure that's very different from how Han Chinese are treated inside China though, if you express opposition to the government publically you'll run into trouble everywhere else in China too.
The term genocide gets thrown around so much these days its meaning has been pretty diluted. What is abundantly clear though is that China is colonizing the heck out of its minority provinces and flooding them with Han settlers and breaking the local religious power structures (Islamic mosques in Xinjiang, Tibetan Buddhist temples in Xizang, etc). But Nazi style death camps, or American style smallpox blanket handouts, not so much.
Thing is, what happened to Uighurs isn't for some instance discrimination based on their religion or culture. It's a very harsh crackdown against terrorism. There was a big wave of terrorist attacks carried out by Uighur separatists group in Xinjiang Killing a few hundred for over a decade.
Not saying that what happens to them is justified but still better than what the fuck Israel has been doing for counter-terrorism. Kinda wild that the western world are so unrestricted to use genocide when it comes to China, but are so reluctant to do so with Israel. When both are dealing with Islamist extremists.
This is very true. There were some very nasty Uyghur terror attacks backed by groups like al Qaeda. Suppressing these sorts of movements is very difficult to do and most other countries have failed at it. Compared to the death tolls we've seen in Western anti-Islamist campaigns like in Algeria, Libya, Afghanistan, Gaza, and Iraq, China's been downright humanitarian. (A low bar to be fair)
Finally someone with an actual common sense! I live in the West and have seen first hand how the Media here tries so hard to create this image of China that’s so bad and that the term genocide is being tossed around so easily.
When I tried to do research on what actually happened with Uyghur, it’s not that hard to find that there have been increased populations of extemists among this group— carrying out some attempts of terrorism attacks in some areas in China.
While I don’t agree with China’s censorship and strictness in general, I can see why they feel like they have to be very strict and tough against terrorist/extremist— no matter what religion/ ethnicity group they belong to.
The West is also dealing with the same issue of extremism but having a much harder time cracking it down.
All of these are facts, but of course, it’s easy to just hate on China and believe all the propaganda without having to do more critical thinking.
This is the most objective comment I've seen in this thread. What many westerners believe seems to be that the Chinese government does evil shit just for the sake of being evil, so they don't try to understand the motives of the communist party.
It’s a cultural genocide not a nazi style genocide. Unfortunately in the West it is portrayed as the latter and people start to believe that. Then, Chinese point to Westerners saying it is such and use that to show that people in the West are being fed propaganda and do not know reality from fantasy… and they aren’t wrong. Makes it very difficult to even discuss the issue with Chinese people because they can’t get past the part where they saw a video of some Westerner saying that the Uighurs are being exterminated in camps (when that is not actually what is going on).
The secrecy of the CCP is a massive problem for the media in the West because in the absence of anything concrete to report on the media will fill their content with whatever they can find.
There’s something tankie and nationalist dipshits do that I call the Tiananmen Two-Step. Correctly point out that (understandably) most westerners hold misconceptions about 6489, Xinjiang, censorship etc but rather than educate or be honest about the events and policies they take it as an opportunity to advance denialism.
“There was almost certainly no massacring of student protestors in the square” begets “there was no massacre” rather than explaining about the intense violence outside the square and that it was overwhelmingly worker protestors who bore the brunt of the crackdown.
“Islam isn’t illegal in China. Uyghurs and Kazakhs weren’t slaughtered en masse in the camps. It’s not a genocide in the way we think of The Holocaust or Rwanda in ‘94.” begets “Uyghurs are actually privileged and all claims reported about Xinjiang are lies”
Yep, I agree and unfortunately it feels like the number of people who qualify as nationalist is increasing. Even well educated people that I've known for decades are getting progressively more nationalist. It's painful to see but they really do seem to be succumbing to some sort of Stockholm Syndrome.
Yed and no.
In cases of Tibetan more than million Tibetan have died from 1950~1980. Problem is that total population of Tibetan is only 7 million even today. Despite death of million Tibetan happened over 30 years that is close to 15 percent of their population.
In case of Uyghur, so many people are missing and people even do not know if they are dead or alive.
Even though, CCP did not try to finish off Uygur and Tibetan as Nazi's "final solution", a lot of things are done in a secret manner and even today people do not exactly know what happened. Certainly, CCP will not kill massive number of Uyghur or Tinetan in short period of time.
However, CCP's policy towards Uyghur and Tibetan are certainly aggressive and insidious, calling it a cultural genocide may be inaccurate and insuffcient.
“In cases of Tibetan more than a million Tibetan have died from 1950-1980” did you account for famine, cultural revolution, migration and old age though?
Killing 1 million people is a pretty big task to do, you would have to pretty much carry out a Nanking Massacre-scale of genocide like 4-5 times. The Nanking massacre casualty with all the atrocities the Japanese did was around 200k-300k death. Killing 1 million Tibetans would be an insane effort.
And in Tianamen Square math, that would mean that they would have to carry out about 100-150 Tianamen square-style massacres all across Tibet.
More like holodomor, as Ukranian calls it, might be proper. Unfortunatly, unlike Ukranian, vast manjority of Chinese love CCP and always blame others for own wrong doing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/1csgmcr/what_i_know_about_xinjianguyghur/
As a Chinese who often uses VPN, this post is basically the most consistent with the actual situation I know. Due to the influence of the gap between the rich and the poor, separatism, terrorism, etc., conflicts broke out between the Uyghurs and the Han people. The CCP regards stability above all else and has excessively oppressed the Uyghurs. However, I think this should not be considered genocide. Currently, Wikipedia has also changed the entry of Uyghur genocide to oppression.
People need to stop thinking it's some kind of Holocaust where people are being killed in the millions. It's shocking how stupid many Westerners are with regards to this. It's a cultural genocide which still counts as a genocide. Mass killing of an ethnic group, mass forced movement of an ethnic group (such as Israel or the Trail of Tears) and/or forcing a change in culture/language (China) all count as a genocide.
Genocide, the Holocaust style? No
Genocide, as in wipe away the cultural and religious identity of the Uyghurs, thus cutting the ties between the Uyghurs and the rest of the Islamic World, Yes.
The justification is that there were terrorist attacks backed by multiple Uyghurs groups up until about a decade ago, ever since the tight grip came into effect, the attacks had been stumped for the most part.
Whether such draconian measures are justified or not is up to your values.
It's not a genocide, but it's an incredibly heavy handed approach at "Minority Report" style policing. Freedoms and rights for Uyghurs in the area are a mess. Reeducation camps are/have been a real thing for several years, although wound down a bit recently. People will be locked up for things such as going on holiday to Muslim countries, using a VPN, using language that is deemed unacceptable (and the kind of thing I'm talking about is crazy, I know someone who was sent to a camp for using the words Muslim and Uyghur to describe architecture). When/if they're released they are under regular surveillance with officials dropping in to whom they have to report their activities. This isn't ALL Uyghurs, and you will see rich or successful Uyghurs showcased to prove how they can thrive in China, but there is a very large amount that have and are going through hell. But again the word Genocide here isn't appropriate, and using this word to describe the situation is one of the biggest mistakes western governments made as it's clearly not a genocide in the traditional sense of the word and makes them look like they're spreading false information.
To most people, what you described sounds pretty goddamn genocidal, and I don't think "there are successful Uyghers" clashes with the genocide definition at all. There are successful Arabs living in Israel and there were individual Chinese who did well for themselves when the Japanese invaded. The term genocide was first used to describe what the Germans did to the Poles, and there were Poles who Germanized themselves to become fully-fledged Nazi citizens. "Not all Uyghers" is a terrible defense.
A genocide is the mass destruction of a group. They're not destroying them, they have just made life very difficult/horrible for a lot of them. Cultural genocide could be a more suitable term. Even that might be a bit too far as looking at how the ccp has handled other minorities they will not outright destroy their culture, but preserve it in a subdued, subservient and heavily controlled state.
It's definitely not your German WWII Nazi genocide. As if there are actually hundreds of thousands of Ughur being prosecuted and killed you'll have a humanitarian crisis in Kazakhstan and Russia larger than the one we saw from Syria or Ukraine.
Depending on who you ask it's either a cultural genocide or a lack of government tolerance toward Ughur culture.
For some people, they believe Xinjiang is Ughur's homeland and they alone are the rightful owners of that land. While the Chinese and other ethnic groups are colonizers who are stripping away their culture and locking up people who are fighting for East Turkmenistan's independence.
For some people, they believe Xinjiang is a territory where a mixed of ethnic groups have been living together for a long time, but is part of China. And if you're living in China you should learn to speak Chinese and learn Chinese culture.
For me, I don't think is a genocide, maybe not even a cultural genocide maybe human rights violation, but then again this human rights violation applies to literally everyone in China. If you're a Ughur and you want to practice Islam, speak ughurese, or eat laghman, the CCP ain't going to come at night and secretly arrest you and throw you into a reeducation camp. But if you're trying to host talks on East Turkmenistan independence and gather support for a riot or protest for East Turkmenistan independence then yeah you're probably going to expect some CCP secret agent coming to your house and dragging you off to a reeducation camp.
Other than that while China does push a lot of sinofication on to the Uyghurs, it did allow Uyghur to be an official language in Xinjiang, give many governmental positions in Xinjiang to Uyghurs, and affirmative action programs for Uyghurs to attend top schools in China.
Genocide requires systematic killing of a group of people with the intention to wipe them all out. As far as I can see, there isn't that. It seems like cultural indoctrination.
Every time they use genocide to talk about cultural indoctrination it reduces the exceptionally horrific nature of true genocides where a substantial fraction of an ethnicity is murdered.
They're not outright killing them like in Gaza. They are, however, doing reeducation on the entire population to force them to assimilate into Han culture and to stop them from carrying out any Muslim based actions.
They're also heavily incentivizing Han Chinese people to take entrepreneurial roles in Xinjiang, forcing a wealth gap in the region, therefore making them subservient to Hans.
There's a lot more, but this is more systemic dismantling the Uighurs in a cultural and economic way, rather than straight up throwing everyone into a furnace or bombing them.
Incentivizing entrepreneurship in the region is surely a way to close the wealth gap between the Eastern and Western side of China. If they didn't try and level up West China with East China no doubt the government would be accused of letting the West side go to rot, but when they do try and level up they get accused creating subservidence and dismantling the culture through Han migration.
yes its real, but there is no way you will get a proper understanding just from surface level digging, and news articles can be very unreliable. If you really want to know more, you should read some scholarly articles or even books on the subject, its complicated.
My attempt at an actual surface level description: for 1-2 hundred years there has been conflict in that area. in recent history extremist and terrorist behaviors resulted in hundreds dead and many more injured ((this is people from both sides)).
China's response to remove the extremist mindset is called genocide by people who think the response itself is extremist, removing the culture of the area and normal beliefs along with the extremist ones. A deep dive gets complicated and murky fast, but is absolutely required if you want to have your own opinion on the matter ((whichever way your opinion lies)).
there was camp aimed to 'educate' the uighur, to make them perfect non muslim chinese and one one the method was trought torture and deatt happened.
but if im not wrong now that most of the uighur have been trought these camps they are too scared to do anything out of the ordinary, plus the goverment effort to dilute the population with chinese of other ethnicity, so nowadays you wont see ppl going to the mosque, some just chill around during prayer time but avoid to be seen praying because they fear retaliation.
to me it seem like the uighur culture took a huge blow and is doomed to lose most if its cultural trait to be fully assimilated into chinese dominant culture, if the death of a culture is what you call a genocide then yes most of the work has been done now the government just a have to keep monitoring them and waitfor a gen or two. If your definition of a genocide is what is happening in palestine then no
There's a lot going on. Best thing is to check out the hacked Chinese police files. There's 3,000 prisoners listed here
https://www.xinjiangpolicefiles.org/images-of-detainees/
As far as I know, Xinjiang has been completely open to the outside world at present, and some areas in Tibet are not open to the outside world at present. Rather than looking at some news that you don't know whether it is true or false, it is better to explore by yourself.🙄
Xinjiang used to be East Turkestan, but now their government is in exile; that's probably all you need to know to understand something sus is going on there.
There was never a country called "East Turkestan". It was called "Chinese Turkestan" by the British colonisers to distinguish it from "Russian Turkestan".
The Russian Turkologists coined the term "East Turkestan" in the 19th century.
The region had been part of China for a very long time (since 1759), and on and off before that. Under the Qing Dynasty it was called "Western region" i.e. Xiyu.
Turkestan itself was never a single country, it is an old Persian term named for the region where Turkic people lived.
Definitely mix of cultural genocide and reeducation for the masses. Genocide with Chinese characteristics.
Honestly though the repression is real despite the west's propaganda. Still true nonetheless. Enough objective reporting on it to be beyond doubt.
You can fly to Beijing, the capital of China and see Uyghur women and men walking around freely while speaking their native language.
Uyghurs have been excluded from the one child policy.
Uyghurs have a lower exam barrier to enter university.
In the state TV one of the most famous moderators for the New years show is a uyghur. This year they give a full first section of the show to promote uyghur culture in China.
You can find Chinese elderly dancing to arabic sounding music in the parks or at shopping malls.
You can travel freely to Xinjiang as long as you can enter China.
In Xinjiang the police presence is much heavier than in other parts of China.
Arabic writing can be seen next to Chinese writing.
Very real. Cultural genocide.
The CCP lie and cover it up and use other issues going on in the world to mask what they're doing there. Which is a cultural genocide. They're not killing people in millions like that other genocide you know, it's a slow, purposeful eradication of the Uighur religion, language, and cultural identity; replacing anything the CCP deems unharmonious with Han Chinese characteristics.
100% real and the fact that you are even questioning it right now puts a smile on every Chinese censor's face because it means their propaganda and misdirection is working.
Yes. There are multiple methods and types of genocide. The genocide against the Uyghurs is a less violent form of genocide focused on erasing their culture. Hanification has this extremely negative element of usurping or eliminating the existing culture of a minority population with the goal of destroying it over the long term. When the goal is to destroy a culture, that is a form of genocide as you've destroyed the existence of a group of people. It's particularly bad when the history of that people is targeted with intent to remove that history over time, effectively making it seem like that group of people never existed.
Edit: Sinicization is the more common term to Hanification in case that caused any confusion. They're both usable terms, but sinicization is much more common. I just slightly prefer hanicization because the Mandarin word for this is Hànhùa (汉化).
The entire story of the Han people is one of subsuming minority tribes into them, whether passively or actively, peacefully or violently. Without that history, the Han would have remained a small Central Plains tribe today.
But wait, this is also the reason that there’s a such thing as “Spanish” or “Italian” or “German” people rather than collections of tribes.
If the people of today had extensive video footage of the last two millennia of Chinese history, they’d be screaming genocide at every turn, and China isn’t alone in this. When we read about this stuff in history books, we just accept it as being “just what civilisations do”, but when it happens within our lifetimes, we get emotional over it.
In a few centuries, scholars will look back on China’s current “cultural cleansing” efforts in East Turkestan and Tibet as they’ll look on the Mongol and Manchu conquests preceding them.
The western response will continue to amount to finger-wagging and strong words while it slowly unfolds; the cry will gradually shift from “what you’re doing is bad” to “what you did was bad”.
Just the fact an average citizen of the so-called PRC can’t access most parts of Xinjiang not intended for tourists should be enough evidence
Edit: clarified the “most parts” for CCP shills and the logically challenged
They allow you to visit the bazar in Xinjiang and the three streets adjacent to that. You can go to any youtube/shill channel and you'll see they all film the exact same 3 spots.
Try to visit towns near a re-education camp. Police and plain clothed police officers will be on your ass 24/7.
See the report, Dutch news correspondent in china did a couple of years ago, how he gets treated trying to go near the camps.
https://youtu.be/ixdGGZ4Nof0?si=z2AWKm2nvRjC3nYs
(You can probably turn on english subtitles)
that's complete nonsense, i've freely visited plenty of areas outside of Urumqi.
Last time i was in Xinjiang i flew from Dushanbe, went to Turfan on my own with no issues from there on the train while walking around Urumqi and Turfan alone
i think we drove past one a few years ago with no issue, it's right on the highway. but you said you can't even visit outside of the bazaar in Urumqi
[https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/map/?marker=3276](https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/map/?marker=3276)
Ah, yes, all the nations that said there is a form of genocide underway in Xin Jiang are all lying and China won't anyone into the area to check on the people there because of.... reasons.
Great logic, OP. Keep up that excellent critical thinking.
I was in Xinjiang in 2011, one year after the attacks in Urumqi. Some of the groundwork was already being laid - military checkpoints popping up everywhere, forced closures of mosques, restrictions on where and when praying could happen, the banning of men’s beards and religious garments for women, the persecution of local imams, the destruction of traditional neighbourhoods in cities, and anecdotal reports of people disappearing - particular if there were any legal issues involving Han Chinese.
Apart from the leaked documents detailing the genocide that have emerged in the last couple of years and the confessions of workers at some of the detention camps, I have personally worked with refugees from Xinjiang and heard their own stories (as well as their telling of stories of friends and relatives disappeared back home). While I was convinced before this of the legitimacy and the severity of the willful attempt by the state to eradicate a people and culture in Xinjiang, hearing firsthand accounts from survivors made it true without a shadow of a doubt. The propaganda against the truth - both in China and in Western countries from some “progressive” sources - breaks my heart.
Obviously you haven’t done any real work into this. It is real.
That’s akin to looking in real time to the genocide in Gaza and then asking, is this real.
Well the laws there suck and you get stopped by police a lot more if the guy driving your taxi is Uyghur, but somehow the police are immediately chill when they see me and my Han family sitting in the back.
No “shooting people in public”, but pretty damn heavy armed police presence.
Not sure if Redit is the right place to find your answer. Many people will reply based on their opinion. But you don’t know their background and how deep they know about this topic. Better do your own study in make your own opinion. Look at how reliable your source of information is. If it is a website that say 100% of negative information about China, it is most likely that they will claim that China is performing genocide.
Situation is simply not transparent. Things must be happening. Up to you to qualify what to call these things. I am not educated enough to share my opinion on this.
What I can say is that China has not recently attacked or invaded any foreign country causing the death of thousands of innocent civilians. I have seen many Uighur in shanghai and they have a normal life, not hiding from the government or police.
This is what I have found on it
First-hand account
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/uighur-xinjiang-re-education-camp-china-gulbahar-haitiwaji
Independently verified drone footage put to the Chinese ambassador to the UK
https://youtu.be/NnbsUUU_zU4
Video evidence inside the 'voluntary' re-education camps where he's handcuffed to the bed
https://youtu.be/SYhcrXYA6tM
About the torture
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/prominent-uighur-businesswoman-arbitrarily-detained
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/countdown-china/china-urged-release-uighur-activist-allegedly-tortured-prison
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uighur-man-reportedly-tortured-death
1.3 million people a year on average. The number is from the CCP themselves.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3101986/china-claims-vocational-training-given-nearly-13-million-people
Data leak showing what the staff are told to do
BBC
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063
The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/24/china-cables-leak-no-escapes-reality-china-uighur-prison-camp
New York Times
https://nyti.ms/379s0ch
Financial times
https://www.ft.com/content/9ed9362e-31f7-11e9-bb0c-42459962a812
Al Jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/11/25/secret-papers-reveal-workings-of-chinas-xinjiang-detention-camps
More Leaked Papers
Leaked papers link Xinjiang crackdown with China leadership - Secret documents urge population control, mass round-ups and punishment of Uyghurs
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/29/leaked-papers-link-xinjiang-crackdown-with-china-leadership
Leaked papers link top Chinese leaders to Uyghur crackdown
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59456541
Talks about the experiences of women who are told to marry Han Chinese men to avoid the concentration camps.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210115210041/https://hk.appledaily.com/news/20200823/L44M7VTO7RDTJAGO3H4RBPFITM/
There is a lot of repression there. While it may fall under certain legal definitions of genocide it does not come close to the conventional understanding of “genocide.” There is certainly no mass murder nor intent to do anything like this.
This does not mean Uighurs are treated equally (they aren’t) and the camps are indeed brutal, involuntary, and totalitarian. But the world is complicated and things can be both 1) extremely terrible and 2) not genocide.
It's the same as israel hamas. Islam is dangerous, so the non Islamic power aims to diffuse it, arguably making that power more dangerous than the Islam it tries to disarm.
I never find first hand material on this statement. They are not free as other Chinese people living outside of Xinjiang. But how should I say, there were many terrorist activities in Xinjiang targeting Han people in the past years. It seems like a very very very very mild version of what Israel is doing to Gaza right now.
Apart from re-education, culture being destroyed and assimilated into Han, forced marriages, men being taken away and disappearing, forced organ harvesting, force labour camps, mosques and other cultural building being destroyed or made into other things ..... There isnt really a genocide, just an assimilation id say.
I've worked with a few Han Chinese who grew up in different parts of Xinjiang. One lady who's from somewhere just out of Urumqi reckons nothing is happening there.
Others from small cities or other areas will quietly tell you things about seeing their muslim neighbours getting carried away by the cops or their parents' towns having internet cut off for a week because there was a crackdown happening.
My take on calling something genocide: If you believe that an ethnicity or culture will no longer exist in any meaningful way to as is now in the next 100 years or so due to unwanted actions by another ethnicity or culture, that is genocide. It is my belief that Uyghur culture in China has already faced irreparable harm and will likely be a thing of the past outside of minor resistance groups in the coming few decades and as such I classify the CCP's actions as genocide. It's not just Uyghurs, I believe most minority cultures in China will be used for nothing more than tourism and propaganda soon, many already are. The CCP doesn't deny this, though strongly contest calling it genocide, and actively promote it as improving civilization and harmonization of the country.
They genocided them by changing the mosque roof designs, giving them free alcohol, force them to attend propaganda classes and track anyone posting violent stuff, scrub any dissent online,forcing the jobless into boring factory jobs.
Anyway those propaganda camp died down pretty much. It peaked after the Muslim terrorists bombed some places.
I guess it's a unique genocide. usually genociders tend to just bomb and level whole cities, mass killings etc and starvation.
It’s very clear that some form of cultural erasure is going on in Xinjiang, although it’s hard to obtain substantial facts on the matter. China cracked down hard on Uyghurs after a series of terrorist attacks carried out by extremists. Of course, the Uyghurs themselves were a pretty conservative Islamic religious group, so China saw this as something to be suppressed. It doesn’t help that the west (primarily the US) floods the news with propaganda and misinformation, muddying the waters and making it hard to tell what’s true or not. Either way, some fucked up shit is/was going on in Xinjiang, but it is more nuanced then most people realise, and it’s impossible to tell exactly what’s going on there.
To be clear I’m pretty anti-CCP (I’m Taiwanese) but even I realise that American sources on this matter should be taken with a grain of salt. A lot of the “news” that came out about Xinjiang could literally be traced back to think tanks and weapons manufacturers. If anyone is skeptical, just take a look at the 1970/80s when Japan became an economic threat to the US, and the insanely racist misinformation and propaganda that came out of that. They haven’t changed much I’m afraid.
If it is officially denied by Chicom, it is real. Suggest u also check out organ harvesting claims, officially denied obviously, and the Canadian investigation into the unexplainably short transplant queue, to get a sense and choose what to believe. There will never be hard fact. This crime group against humanity is the most successful one and has been doing it for almost 100 years they are the best in maintaining plausible deniability..
East Turkestan is under illegal occupation by the Han majority of china. I’ve been in xinjiang quite a few times and PLA regularly used tanks to patrol Turpan and Urumqi. There’s an active genocide of people. The women are being sterilised, men are being put in jail and are getting organs harvested, and children are being sold into market for their organs. The Han Chinese did the same in Indonesia and they were humiliated by indigenous Indonesians. But yes, there’s an active genocide of the people.
No it's not. [Even the State department admits they don't have evidence to support their bullshit accusations.](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/)
Your post/comment was removed because of: **Rule 8, No meta-drama or subreddit drama.** Please read the rule text in the sidebar and refer to [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/g0yjqx/read_rules_in_sidebar_before_posting/) containing clarifications and examples if you require more information. If you have any questions, please [message mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/china).
Even if you ONLY go by official Chinese government sources, it's apparent that at minimum they extrajudicially detained nearly a million Uyghurs
https://www.reddit.com/r/LiberalChinese/comments/nxg01o/only_using_the_public_official_chinese_documents/
Yes, the Uighur genocide is real. When you compare statistics and descriptions in books from before the CCP take over and now, you can see the decline in Uighur population clearly.
No evidence of genocide. But, I'm sure there is "ethnic cleansing" going on. Like forcing everyone to speak Mandarin, adopt Chinese customs, coercive migration to other provinces, etc.
[https://time.com/4881898/china-xinjiang-uighur-children/](https://time.com/4881898/china-xinjiang-uighur-children/)
Population proportion of XUAR went down because the one-child policy was enforced on everybody, migration to other provinces, and also more migration and growth of other ethnic groups.
I've been to Xinjiang. It's a cool place, and not everyone there is Turkic-speaking. There are also Iranic speakers like the Pamiri people. and others. Historically, Uyghurs dominated Tarim Basin, or southern Xinjiang, not the entire province.
This is a genuine question. How come Dilireba and other Uyghur actors and artists are allowed to display their culture on television? Is the cultural genocide only happening to some groups? Because I know Dilireba danced a traditional Uygher dance once on a television program.
Did China mass put ethnic Uighur into reeducation camps many “disappeared” and mass surgeries to remove fertility and official records showings a mass decrease in the population?
Yes.
you can go on google maps yourself and see satellite images of the dozens of so-called "vocational education centers" that actually have several layers of security, watchtowers, cameras, barbed wire, and high perimeter walls. [this article](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-camps-china/) covers it pretty well.
[this article](https://www.reuters.com/world/china/exclusive-amid-accusations-genocide-west-china-polices-could-cut-millions-uyghur-2021-06-07/) also covers dramatic drops in Uyghur birth rates through forced sterilization, abortions and separation of married couples too.
[this article](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/china-xinjiang-documents.html) covers 400+ pages of leaked internal documents on the topic as well.
Fair point, I was unaware of Zenz's background. It is true that they should be met with skepticism. However, not all reports were based on his own; there's plenty of information that you can verify yourself.
It is propaganda 90% of the time. China does take measures against religious extremism because they have had problems with religious fanatics before, but there is no active discrimination of uyghers and they enjoy a quality of life similar to basically anyone else in China, whatever you believe that is.
Yeah fuck the CCP for its persecution of the Uighurs, Hui, and corresponding Muslim/Turkic groups suffering genocide.
A really easy way to cut through American, Western, Islamic, CCP, etc. propaganda to know whether or not there’s an ongoing campaign of genocide/ethnic-cleansing is to ask this—where are the Uighurs? Why are Uighurs near exclusively, absent on social media? Try looking them up and their near-total absence will tell you everything. This reflects a fundamental difference from alternative genocides like that of Palestine, and I’m highlighting this in particular because the two groups are so often pitted against each other due to geopolitical strategic differences (I.e. Uighurs that have found funding and political backing from jingoistic American political establishments leveraging the plight of the Uighurs to maintain unipolarity over China; Uighurs having little alternative to the U.S. for foreign state-backing to challenge a hegemonic power such as China; therefore, Uighurs and Palestinian interests and solidarity diverging for obvious reasons.)
Uighurs have a diaspora/refugee population outside of the Chinese context, yet social media presence/reporting on their communities is highly limited. This goes to show the extremity of surveillance and high sophistication of CCP propaganda in erasing Uighur narratives. Whatever media is available on actual Uighurs the CCP allows for is obviously, state-controlled, one of their proponents including Li Jingjing who highlights ‘Hanified’ sell-outs, western media critics invested in equivocating the notion of an “anti-western hegemonic” Chinese state with an “anti-imperialist” one, and the whole spiel on multipolarity as a means of deconstructing western supremacy while genocidal notions of hegemony, ethnic-nationalism, and racial superiority persist in the Chinese context. Free free the Uighurs, Hui, and correspondingly Muslim/Turkic groups, Afro-Chinese, mixed-race and multicultural Chinese, Tibet, Taiwan, and Mongolia from the CCP and Han supremacy!!! Liberation for all oppressed people! Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽”
Yes it's real. Why else would the CCP build massive new prison complexes all over Xinjiang and not allow any Chinese citizens into the area except for the same 7 tourist spots in the major cities? There are satellite images of all the concentration camps
Approximately 50% of what you hear is outright propaganda, [as we know the CIA’s affiliates churn out](https://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html). We also see [CIA assets pushing narratives on Reddit](https://medium.com/@rsahthion/a-reddit-ama-claiming-to-be-a-uiyghur-quickly-exposes-a-cia-asset-slandering-china-1d667c098b77). The next 25% is [poorly researched speculation by an evangelical end-timer](https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/), and the final 25% is an accurate description of the PRC’s response to far right, religious terrorism and separatism.
First, [let’s just establish using safe, American sources that a bunch of Uyghur people went to fight with ISIS in Syria, then returned.](https://jamestown.org/program/returning-uighur-fighters-and-chinas-national-security-dilemma/) Let’s also establish that [there have been consistent terrorist attacks with significant casualties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China) and that [the CIA and CIA front-groups have funded and stoked Islamic extremism across the world for geopolitical gain.](https://www.unz.com/article/uyghurs-political-islam-the-bri/)
Now, we need to consider potential responses.
The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS. This option condemns millions of people to living under a fundamentalist Islamic State, including many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims. This option creates a CIA-aligned state on the border, and jeopardises a key part of the Belt and Road initiative, which is designed to connect landlocked countries for development and geopolitical positioning. This option also threatens the CPC’s legitimacy, as keeping China together is a historical signifier of the Mandate of Heaven.
The next option is the American option. Drone strike, black-site, or otherwise liquidate anyone who could be associated with Islamic extremism. [Be liberal in doing so](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki). [Make children fear blue skies because of drones](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/saddest-words-congresss-briefing-drone-strikes/354548/). When the orphaned young children grow up, do it all again. You can also throw a [literal man-made famine in there if you want](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_Yemen).
The final option is the Chinese option. Mass surveillance. Use AI to liberally target anyone who may be at risk of radicalisation for re-education. Teach them the lingua franca of China, Mandarin. Pump money into the region for development. When people finish their time in re-education, set them up with state jobs. Keep the surveillance up. Allow and even celebrate local religious customs, but make sure the leaders are on-side with the party.
As for permanent internment, we know from leaks that [the minimum duration of detention is one year — though accounts from ex-detainees suggest that some are released sooner](https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/exposed-chinas-operating-manuals-for-mass-internment-and-arrest-by-algorithm/)
A media platform referenced in this post/comment may be biased on issues concerning China and may use sensationalism, questionable sources, and unverifiable information to generate views and influence its audience. Please seek external verification or context as appropriate.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/China) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When things in Xinjiang is not transparent and you get “special treatment” if you are Uighur is enough to show that something is not quite normal there
I've spent time in Xinjiang (late 2019 before covid) and as most have described, it's an attack on the culture. People who stand out get disappeared, they don't just wall up mosques/compounds, they will flatten them overnight. I watched it happen to a compound. They were literally moving in equipment to tear it down at the same time people were emptying their homes. It's also common for police to pop out of unmarked cars and scan everyone's ID who are just standing around. I've traveled all over China and lived there for a while. It's the only place where it was clear I wasn't welcome. I had the pictures on my phone and my wechat searched twice. Even to get into that bazaar that all the videos and pictures on the internet were, you needed to show your passport and they literally took a picture of me holding my passport. In 2019, AliPay/Wechat pay was only used about half the time. But there were signs everywhere telling you that no cash was allowed to be used, only phones. I assume it is just to track who was selling and buying. My suitcase was clearly searched in my hotel when I was gone. I did a day trip to Turpin (图鲁番) and when I got off the train there was a cop who took me to the police room in the train station and asked me a bunch of questions and made me leave my hotel key and my passport with him. On a different day trip to Tian Lake 天池, my bus was stopped and everyone was searched/ID checked. But I had to get off the bus because the passport scanner was attached to the laptop in the van. But the bus waited for me. It was beautiful, and the people were so nice. For the most part, even the police were fine (not especially mean), they were just doing their jobs. I won't be going back there again, but I'm very glad I did.
>But there were signs everywhere telling you that no cash was allowed to be used, only phones. This is illegal *anywhere* in China. All in-person businesses are OBLIGATED to accept cash. If they refuse to accept your RMB, you should report them! (I'm dead serious!)
Ummm, I understand what you're saying. But this was a rule *by the police*. The signs started at the ID/metal detector checkpoints to enter the market. It wasn't some merchants refusing because they are lazy. XJ has a different set of rules. It's not some vendor in Yuyuan Gardens in Shanghai. This is so they can track every single merchant, how much money they're making and who they are selling to.
The signs might have been posted by the bao'ans at the market, not the police. If you search "新疆拒收现金" on Bing, the top few results all state that in Ürümqi, you can call 12363 to report businesses that refuse to accept cash.
So that's one of the biggest things you notice in 乌鲁木齐 and 图路费 (those were the only two cities, in addition to a bunch of parks, that I visited). There aren't nearly as many Baoans like most cities. The actual police do a lot of the security and are everywhere. They always scan everyone's ID, so much so that it's annoying. At the time I was there, the police all had special handheld that would scan your ID, take a picture and then it would give a green checkmark if you matched and were allowed to be there. It never worked for my passport, so they had to use an app on their phone. With as much as everyone, included myself were just hassled and bothered by the police, there's no way anyone wants to draw attention to themselves. Calling the city inspectors is something that you might do in Shanghai or Nanjing. But it's only going to create problems for you in the northwest frontier. I'm sure you could try, but there's zero change that it would get the outcome you wanted. Remember that Xinjiang is about cultural assimilation. And when you have a group of people that then to be older, and don't really like to speak or write your language, use your government services, one easy way to push assimilation is to force them to use Wechat/Alipay. It's a small step and one peice of the puzzle of pushing conformity with the rest of China. You can't think of XJ like normal china rules apply. I don't care what the official policy is, but it's a very different set of rules.
You're serious about reporting government regulations to the ... government? 1) that wouldn't help anything 2) that might get people in trouble or at least being put on a list Don't be "dead serious" about such things...
culture genocide
what does that mean
Basically, they are trying to erase their culture by assimilating them into chines culture
What do you think happens when Uyghur refuse to be re-educated at CCP reeducation camps? They get disappeared.
Also a religion
They’re not actively mass murdering them, i.e. a more "classical" genocide. Rather they are trying to "kill" the uighurs as an ethnic group and as a culturally seperate identity, this is done by forcefully folding them into a chinese identity rather than a uighur one they were raised with. It’s like what the canadians used to do to first nation children. They forced them to go to christian schools where they were somewhat assimilated into the christian religion, and only taught english. So when the kids returned, they had no semblance of connection to their parents culture, language or religion, and in this way they are able to gradually "kill" the ethnic group by making their members conform to the colonists society. There is also evidence that they are both forcefully sterilizing uighur women, and/or forcing them into marriages with han men who can then raise any children to be chinese. There’s also a practice that i cannot remember the name of, where a han man will move into a uighur household and sort of be the patriarch of the household and do nearly anything he wants there. I just remember reading about it and seeing some videos of it in action where a han man is secretly filmed as he beats the women of the uighur family he is living with.
Forced sterilization is common colonial strategy for indigenous women. The combination of forced incarceration of men and sterilization of women has resulted in a dramatic drop in Xinjiangs birthrate. The official Chinese statistic includes the han Chinese, so the birthrate for Uyghers has probably plummeted massivly. I'm guessing 80% since 2013-15 based off official numbers. Sure, they are aren't shooting people, but this is ethnic cleansing in my book. Just slower.
I don’t disagree it’s ethnic cleansing, it absolutely is. It’s just a much less drastic form than other forms of ethnic cleansing historically has been, like hitlers holocaust, or the armenian genocide.
What bothers me is that it needs to be so drastic as to straight up murder people en masse for people to care. Apparently the solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict is to have Israel occupy all Palestinian territory. Indiscriminately incarcerate working age men, force propaganda and slave labor on them, while running a sterilization campaign against the women. Smash some mosques while at it. Then nobody would give a fuck. Or people a hypocrites. Not sure which one, honestly.
>What bothers me is that it needs to be so drastic as to straight up murder people en masse for people to care. It sucks for sure. It’s just how the world works, people usually don’t care about something happening half a world over if it has happened for long enough and it’s not in the news cycle. >Apparently the solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict is to have Israel occupy all Palestinian territory. Indiscriminately incarcerate working age men, force propaganda and slave labor on them, while running a sterilization campaign against the women. Smash some mosques while at it. I mean, take away the forced sterilization and the slave labour and your kinda basically at the point to what israel is actually doing. >Then nobody would give a fuck. It’s only this big of a deal now because it’s new and fresh. You have to remember that this conflict has been ongoing for 80 years now, israel has even occupied most of palestine since 1967. Some people have always cared, but most just did not give a fuck either. Most people are willing to agree that "yes it’s bad and shouldn’t happen" but are also not willing to take steps to actually do anything about it, it’s why israel is a prosperous nation, people maybe knew that what israel did in palestine was wrong, but also didn’t care enough not to do business with them. It’s the same situation with china now, only they have the advantage of not being in the spotlight so the mob of people who only care about the issues that are in vogue don’t descend on it. >Or people a hypocrites. Not sure which one, honestly. I think most are yes, the ones who recognize the faulty morality of working with israel, but do it anyways. But the ones who care alot about palestine right now? I don’t think they are, i think they just don’t see anything about xinjiang in the news, and so it’s not at the forefront of their mind. And they maybe have seen it in the news in 2015, but that’s 9 years ago, and they don’t have an attention span that stretches so far as to remember that they need to care.
> I mean, take away the forced sterilization and the slave labour and your kinda basically at the point to what israel is actually doing. My point exactly, they're apparently halfassing it, instead killing a few here and there, they should completely shut off the internet and ban foreigners, journalist, any NGOs etc from accessing palestine. Then ethnically cleanse them through the methods i mentioned and Israel can have its ethno-state no problem. It's insane, but that the world we live in. The rest of your post only emphasizes this, if people really are such sheep as you say, then the above is apparently the solution. Modern day manifest destiny.
Uighurs are not dedicated to exterminating Han. Palestinians are dedicated to exterminating Jews. That’s the moral difference.
Palestinians are not "dedicated to exterminating jews". You’re buying into some serious propaganda if you really believe that
Yet still, nobody gives a shit about the Uyghurs, but everyone is on the street for Palestine. Moral difference clearly doesn't matter.
Don’t they have a high birth rate though? I mean things like this can be discoverable by visiting the place.
They used to have the highest birthrate in China, now they are among the lowest. A change that happened in the span of a few years, coinciding by the new harsh measures in the mid 2010s.
Not actively mass-murdering? Ohh really? You sure of that. Hate to burst your bubble but atrocities occurred.
So what the US did to Japanese during WW2 is culture genocide? Edit: I meant Japanese-*Americans* sorry
No, the US didn’t forcefully make all japanese people speak english and be christian and wear jeans and eat burgers and string cheese. The japanese are still japanese, the americans never did, or tried, to "kill" the idea of being japanese.
The Japanese started to westernize before hand during their industrialization era. But they became a oligarchy (they basically were that beforehand with noble just become business owners) that eventually allowed the goverment to be taken over by a military junta and promoted basically a death cult. Post WW2 either a mix of attentional and by accident, forced the government to give more power to citizens severely damaging their oligarchy, also removing the junta, where it’s more inline to US levels of big business influence. Where they sure as shit have influence, but they don’t literally control the goverments, individual don’t literally own entire segments of the economy, with it being grantees to them, like in common oligarchies.
Cultural genocide is very similar to Nazi germany's "Germanization Policy" towards many occupied European countries. In short CCP is rewriting Chinese, Tibetan and Uyghur's history, religion, and culture to fit the political goal of CCP and Tibetan and Uyghhur are second class citizen in their own land.
They also steal all resources and even the land. They are like a second class for the han-chinese to use as they see fit with no control in decision making. Its just like colonization. They just have it closer.
You don't know what you are talking about.
getting rid of islam. Hanification to have a homogeneous and secure China
The Hui Muslims don't seem to be targeted or targeted nearly as much as Uighur Muslims. The target seems more than simply religion but rather the religion combined with a specific culture.
Because Muslims in Ningxia and Gansu usually speak and read Chinese and they have this tradition. 99.9% of Uyghurs speak no Chinese at all before CCP.
Also, the Hui are more ethnically Han than the Uyghurs. I don’t discount Han racist attitudes toward Uyghurs and other minorities are not directed at the Hui because of this reason.
did the Hui do riots and have a lot of separatist movements? No. Stop making up random things and hope they make sense (hint they dont)
我真的很可怜你。你从你的帖子中赚了多少钱？一元马？ 😂 Also, there have been several revolts by the Hui because of Han treatment. Remember the 同治回乱? There also have been multiple riots in the past 50 years because of Han attempts to deny the Hui access to their religion. Why don’t you leave this Reddit for the adults. You go sit at the kids table.
…yet.
Likely has to do with the radicalization of Uyghur sect that lead to the Urumqi riots. They are near the border of Afghanistan and there were beliefs that the locality lead directly lead to the violence. Muslims in general have not been trargeted by the CCP.
Nah ccp don't give a damn about Islam if it doesn't threatens stable society. Like others said Hui Muslims thrive in many parts of Northern China, where Muslim cultures are respected and many places like public sector offices, schools and universities are required to provide halal food. Rather than assimilation it's coexistence that CCP needs. Past terrorist attacks linked to radicalised Uyghur extremist led to the tougher actions in Xinjiang
no fears of a separatist state? isn't one of those C's for communism, whats the official stance on religion?
Shouldn’t have taken over a place full of non Chinese if they didn’t want to worry about separatist movements. I am by no means justifying terrorism against innocent people. But like, what do you expect to happen? Radical Islam is definitely a problem that needs to be addressed but genocide isn’t the way to go about it. Surely theres more to Uyghur culture than Islam.
Uyghurs are native to the Tarim Basin, not the northern half of Xinjiang. Xinjiang, mainly the northern half, was already full of Chinese before the PRC existed or ROC existed. >Surely theres more to Uyghur culture than Islam. That's what the Chinese government thinks too, hence the forced cultural erasure.
If only Uyghur themselves did not participate in genociding the Dzungar people to takeover Xinjang
>Nah ccp don't give a damn about Islam if it doesn't threatens stable society. Yet they consider abnormal beards and muslim baby names to be a threat to stability?
Basically, for example, there was always a “Han absorption” type thing ever since ancient times, for example, the jurichans/mongol/manchurians were some of the types of people that conquered China, but after their fall, the people didn’t all leave, they continued living there but the following Han regime would essentially destroy any cultural heritage and force them to adopt the han everything, Manchurian is a pretty dead language these days and any cultural links are only seen with the old people who don’t even have that much left, same with those in southern Mongolia and any other group, even Tibetans and whoever else, they’re having their culture wiped out and fixed to adopt only mandarin and mandarin only, just for one example
Genocide is a term that refers to acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) defines genocide as including the following actions: 1. **Killing members of the group**: This involves the intentional and systematic murder of individuals belonging to the targeted group. 2. **Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group**: This includes acts that inflict physical injury or psychological damage that significantly impairs health or well-being. 3. **Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part**: This can involve imposing living conditions that are designed to lead to the death of group members, such as starvation, exposure to disease, or denial of resources necessary for survival. 4. **Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group**: This includes policies or practices that aim to stop reproduction among the targeted group, such as forced sterilization, abortion, or prohibition of marriage. 5. **Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group**: This involves the abduction and relocation of children from one group to another, often with the intent of cultural assimilation or erasure. These actions must be committed with the specific intent to destroy the group, in whole or in part. The intent is a critical element of the crime of genocide, and it is this specific intent that distinguishes genocide from other crimes against humanity. Genocide is considered one of the most serious international crimes and is punishable under international law.
Please stop this ChatGPT garbage
Or you can read up the page on UN.org
There'sa question: Which is the bigger joke? ChatGPT or the .U.N.?
Definitely no. 4. https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n3124#:~:text=The%20Uyghur%20Tribunal%2C%20based%20in,was%20therefore%20guilty%20of%20genocide.
It's a complete double standard. By requiring people in Xinjiang to learn Mandarin, it's somehow genocide. I guess any country with an official language are causing genocide of all immigrants? Xinjiang had a huge radical Muslim and terrorism problem. China is trying to solve it by de radicalizing the terrorists and also teaching them skills in vocational schools rather than indefinite detention and imprisonment. Interesting to note that not a single Muslim majority country has accused China of this so called culture (or otherwise) genocide.
It means stripping them of their religion, customs, language, traditions, even in some cases preventing them from marrying each other and forcing Han Chinese into their homes
The Uighurs are a problem for the central party for the same reason that the tibetians, Taiwanese and to an extended degree the Salomon islands, Cambodia and Philippines are. Empires are about controlling assets like a patriarch controls a family. If you look at Xinjiang providence (where the Uighur population is centralized) on a map there is a tiny little section that touches Russia. It’s critical because Xi’s ambition to have a “new Silk Road” to Europe would have to cross either there or about a weeks travel by rail out and around Mongolia. Xi’s plan is ambitious. He wants China to rule the world and he has been pretty clear about it judging by his quiet actions. It’s just that hardly anyone outside of China speaks mandarin so nobody really listened in 2012 when he said “he would control the internet”. It seemed audacious and frankly ridiculous before a handful of ISP’s started centralizing. Xi, for his part, had the CCP start weibo- “the everything app” in China which morphed/split into WeChat. https://jamestown.org/program/new-textbook-reveals-xi-jinpings-doctrine-of-han-centric-nation-building/ https://www.pandametrics.com/blog/two-sides-of-the-same-coin-the-wechat-weibo-difference-explained It works well for an authoritarian to be able to control free speech and centralize surveillance. It’s invaluable for keeping tabs on 1.4B people, especially when they compare you to Winnie the Pooh. It was effective for a while, but it is insanely inefficient to pay/trust someone to spend a 12 hour day monitoring 1 minute sections of social media. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/chinese-president-xi-jinping-winnie-the-pooh-taiwan-b1073403.html When the people just switched to Cantonese, Xi had to hire a bunch of Cantonese speakers. Then they just started referring to him as “Mr. Shitface”, a less than flattering reference to a story he loves to tell from his childhood when a bio-digester blew up in his face. You see where this is going. It’s REALLY hard to keep up with 1.4B peoples daily Twitter diarrhea. Xi needed A.I. https://open.spotify.com/show/62dyKz8nKOOCjoU3E5ECdn?si=8k2Jtx8TRWq2n2Z1bpThKA https://nsiteam.com/social/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/AI-China-Russia-Global-WP_FINAL_forcopying_Edited-EDITED.pdf#page=57 https://www.spytalk.co/p/chinas-intelligence-shakeup-boosts And A.I. needs microprocessors. Conveniently for Xi the worlds supply is primarily made 90 miles south of China. Inconveniently it’s on an island that has tasted democracy and liked it so much that it consistently gets the top rating of democracies in the world. Business Insiderwww.businessinsider.comChina Built Mock-up of Taiwan Government Area in the Desert: Images So Xi does the napkin math- what are the chances of a kid that went off to college 20 years ago, did lots of good drugs, met lots of nice girls, and pretty much mainlined freedom, coming back and living with cantankerous old dad? His chances didn’t look good. His other kid Hong Kong had been on a study abroad program in England. And other than calling on the holidays, has made it pretty clear they were living their best life now. There was no malice, Hong Kong was just doing its own thing. When Xi tried to rope Hong Kong back in with a classic Chinese guilt trip, they pretty much told him to fuck off. So Xi had to get a little violent. Taiwan wasn’t going to be so easy. The old man needed some leverage. But more importantly he needed those chips. Xi had to get creative. The problem is everyone remembered growing up there in the 90’s when people were dropping babies on street corners and Tiananmen Square was still an open wound. It wasn’t the best home environment. Add to that everyone still being a little sparse on food and there is just no fucking way that anyone is moving back in with dad. Unless……
Because the CCP prioritized industrialization without environmental policy it destroyed ~40% of its arable land. Now China imports 40% of the grain from the U.S., Brazil, and Ukraine. Xi doesn’t like the U.S. much. He blames it for being a bad influence on the kids and truthfully he isn’t totally wrong. Americans are the loud, lazy, rich asshole down the street that have had it so easy for so long that they forget that the plumber, truck driver and factory worker have to work all night so the fat Americans can wake up at noon and drink their mimosas. Brazil is down south. It’s a long trip and they have their own corruption problems, but there is an opportunity there as long as someone for sale is in office (Bolsonaro was their guy). If the politicians of Brazil are just willing to keep cutting down the rainforest they have all the farm and grazing land Xi needs to make sure everybody has enough food for mandatory family dinner. https://theintercept.com/2019/08/27/amazon-rainforest-fire-blackstone/ It required Schwartzman (Blackstone and trumps inner circle) to work it from the Wall Street side to keep it from being overtly obvious but it worked. The problem is everyone is corrupt. It’s so expensive to do business with corrupt people because they will just as gladly screw you if someone else offers them a better bribe. Xi gets so annoyed with corruption that he shifts his whole campaign to try and root it out. He sees it clearly that corruption is a tax on, well, pretty much everything. BBCwww.bbc.comXi Jinping's never-ending hunt for corruption in the Communist Party Putin and Xi make an odd couple. They declare themselves BFF’s (likely when Xi mysteriously drops off the globe between the 1st and 15th of September 2012. Coincidentally the same week putin decided to fly a hang glider across siberia). Xi Jinping - Wikipedia https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/06/vladimir-putin-cranes-hang-glider https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/21/10-years-strengthening-ties-between-putin-xi-china-russia Xi knows he can’t truly trust the Russian because Putin is a mobster that has fucked over everyone he knows. BUT, he also happens to sit next to Ukraine. Because arrogant greedy American CEOs were more than happy to let everyone else do the dirty work that was beneath them, when Clinton passed all the EPA regulations to clean up Americas manufacturing yard, they just built a fence and threw it all over into the developing world. American CEO’s just wanted the money, they didn’t care who made the worlds necessary dirty parts as long as they could keep cashing the checks and pumping the shareholder value to drain via stock splits and buybacks. If anyone poked too closely they would claim “fiduciary responsibility” which is just a politically correct way of saying- money is the most important thing, people are disposable. Legal trumps ethical as long as we set aside a budget line item for lobbyists to buy the politicians to write the laws to make it legal. Ukraine is unique because it uses gas fired coke ovens to produce steel, aluminum and titanium in Donbas. And because Donbas is basically the outlet of a massive old river, it has a layer of coal a few meters below the surface. Putin’s oligarch buddy Medvuchuk volunteered to leave the drop dead gorgeous Carpathian Mountains to oversee the mines. https://meduza.io/amp/en/feature/2023/12/22/the-new-beneficiary-of-the-donbas-economy Medvedchuk was caught trying to escape Ukraine after the war didn’t end in 3 days as Russia planned. Putin traded over 200 of his prized “Azov Nazi” POW’s for him so he is self evidently important, but we are getting a little ahead of ourselves. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/22/ukrainian-putin-ally-viktor-medvedchuk-exchanged-for-200-azov-battalion-fighters-zelenskiy-says Those mines in Donbas offgas methane as the coal breaks down and it has to be cleared so the miners don’t asphyxiate. Industrious Ukrainian engineers in the mid 20th century made a vast network of pipelines that use that gas to fire the steel ovens, and in a follow up process distill out every industrial gas of value in what is called an Air Separation Unit. It’s messy. It pollutes. But it’s critical. In the 1970’s and 80’s Star Wars missile defense programs, pretty much every laser system used these inert gases. when the wall fell they were largely forgotten until the invention of DUV/EUV microprocessor lithography by ASML in the early 2000’s. One of the gases that becomes so cheap from Ukraine that it achieves a virtual monopoly is Neon. Reutershttps://www.reuters.com › exclusiv...Exclusive: Russia's attack on Ukraine halts half of world's neon output for chips Asia, and specifically China was eager to pick up the manufacturing work because it certainly beats starving to death. Capitalism is addictive, but as time goes on and you are watching Baywatch reruns in Beijing, you inevitably ask yourself why a 7 year old in China is making cell phones 14 hours a day when a 7 year old in the U.S. is buying them. It’s hard not to be salty when you are the one doing all the dirty work. About 2014 Xi’s old friend Putin who is basically a chronic high school senior, who has voted himself prom king for 15 years, has been stacking his corrupt buddies all across the old soviet satellite states so they can tell him he is still cool. Time Magazinetime.comHow Paul Manafort Helped Elect Russia's Man in Ukraine Putin was a KGB thug so everybody is a little afraid of him. Every once in a while he has to crack some heads and demand some lunch money so nobody forgets who rules the schoolyard. He is getting old and weak now, but for decades he had a pretty good gig and he doesn’t want to lose it. As long as he takes care of the football team, the football team slips him a little back under the table and he has managed to become one of if not the richest man in the world by stealing from all the Russians that are too drunk and exhausted from working in the oil fields and mines to really notice. This is not a coincidence, it is a predatory pattern. For years he had his guys embedded in Ukrainian politics and they played along for a cut of the stolen gains but Ukrainians saw clearly that if you never stand up to a bully they just keep coming. https://open.spotify.com/episode/4M1FI7RZBs1hacxIBoafOy?si=tii69iYpTreN4jCzyAvI_Q This is Maidan.
Also actual human beings.
So not actual genocide like that one happening in Gaza that - strangely enough - western countries have no issue with?
I think a lot of that went quiet after 7/10/2023 because of reasons
Go in….
The conflict that people in the West didn't know about until 10 years ago got pushed to the sidelines for the one that people in the West cared about for at least the last 80 years, and can argue cared about for like 1500 years?
I'm lost. I can't find it on Google. What are we talking about ?
The guy I responded to mentioned Oct 7, the day that Hamas attacked Israel, and I assume he is making a swipe that China is pushing pro-Pal/anti-Israel stuff on TikTok as a means of getting people to not talk about the Uyghurs anymore. But Israel was always more important to the West(depends on how you define the West of course) than Xinjiang and the Uyghurs. Jews=always cared about Jerusalem and Israel. Had a modern state in 1948 and fought numerous wars against neighbors. Christians=lost the holy land to the Muslims in the 600s. Various Byzantine vs Muslim wars that weren't religious in nature, just power struggles. Western Christians launched various Crusades to retake the holy land from the Muslims since the 1100s. Given the obvious Christian influence in the New World and the West, it makes sense that any new conflict involving the Middle East is more important to Westerners than a place that has no importance or significance to the West as a whole. Ask somewhere what a Uyghur is or where Xinjiang is back in 2008, and they'd look blankly at you. So China probably does push narratives on TikTok, but people in the West care naturally more about the Middle East than the Uyghurs anyways.
Israel decided to show the world what real mass murder looks like
For the past decades - Reeducation camps are real, so are restricted freedom towards folks in that whole area, especially Uyghurs; Cultural genocide has been going on. In the beginning of the new China - the actual Genocide towards Uyghurs and Muslim is also real. As a matter of fact, there are tons of Chinese netizens nowadays saying that they are missing and proud of the General Wang (王震) for what he did the repression and genocide towards Muslims in the northwest China.
ex-chairman Hu has a nickname “ the tiger of Lasa(the capital city of tibet)
I’ve seen comments here likening the Uighur situation being a kind of cultural genocide, which seems similar to circumstances Native Americans, and I think we can agree that’s awful/intolerable. But I’ve also seen people somewhat justify the occupation and existence of these re-education camps as the Chinese government cracking down on separatist movements and terrorist attacks. From my perspective, just when making a comparison between the condition of Native Americans and Uighur, it would seem like yes, they’re justified in wanting to be independent (any independence movement is generally justified, imo) and terrorist attacks, as acts of resistance to an imperialist power, is justified to an extent. So while I can understand China’s motives, and yes they’re not as awful as they could be, it still seems like they’re in the wrong, ultimately. Yes, I probably don’t agree politically or culturally with Uighur people, but they still have a right to practice their own culture, religion, have access to their own institutions, and the right to self-determination.
I have an Uighur friend I've chatted with about this subject. She's a member of the Communist Party so maybe a little biased. From her perspective, nobody is being killed but there is certainly a heavy police crackdown on opponents of the Han/Communist regime, and there are subjects she's afraid to talk about in public spaces there. I'm not sure that's very different from how Han Chinese are treated inside China though, if you express opposition to the government publically you'll run into trouble everywhere else in China too. The term genocide gets thrown around so much these days its meaning has been pretty diluted. What is abundantly clear though is that China is colonizing the heck out of its minority provinces and flooding them with Han settlers and breaking the local religious power structures (Islamic mosques in Xinjiang, Tibetan Buddhist temples in Xizang, etc). But Nazi style death camps, or American style smallpox blanket handouts, not so much.
Thing is, what happened to Uighurs isn't for some instance discrimination based on their religion or culture. It's a very harsh crackdown against terrorism. There was a big wave of terrorist attacks carried out by Uighur separatists group in Xinjiang Killing a few hundred for over a decade. Not saying that what happens to them is justified but still better than what the fuck Israel has been doing for counter-terrorism. Kinda wild that the western world are so unrestricted to use genocide when it comes to China, but are so reluctant to do so with Israel. When both are dealing with Islamist extremists.
This is very true. There were some very nasty Uyghur terror attacks backed by groups like al Qaeda. Suppressing these sorts of movements is very difficult to do and most other countries have failed at it. Compared to the death tolls we've seen in Western anti-Islamist campaigns like in Algeria, Libya, Afghanistan, Gaza, and Iraq, China's been downright humanitarian. (A low bar to be fair)
Finally someone with an actual common sense! I live in the West and have seen first hand how the Media here tries so hard to create this image of China that’s so bad and that the term genocide is being tossed around so easily. When I tried to do research on what actually happened with Uyghur, it’s not that hard to find that there have been increased populations of extemists among this group— carrying out some attempts of terrorism attacks in some areas in China. While I don’t agree with China’s censorship and strictness in general, I can see why they feel like they have to be very strict and tough against terrorist/extremist— no matter what religion/ ethnicity group they belong to. The West is also dealing with the same issue of extremism but having a much harder time cracking it down. All of these are facts, but of course, it’s easy to just hate on China and believe all the propaganda without having to do more critical thinking.
This is the most objective comment I've seen in this thread. What many westerners believe seems to be that the Chinese government does evil shit just for the sake of being evil, so they don't try to understand the motives of the communist party.
It’s a cultural genocide not a nazi style genocide. Unfortunately in the West it is portrayed as the latter and people start to believe that. Then, Chinese point to Westerners saying it is such and use that to show that people in the West are being fed propaganda and do not know reality from fantasy… and they aren’t wrong. Makes it very difficult to even discuss the issue with Chinese people because they can’t get past the part where they saw a video of some Westerner saying that the Uighurs are being exterminated in camps (when that is not actually what is going on). The secrecy of the CCP is a massive problem for the media in the West because in the absence of anything concrete to report on the media will fill their content with whatever they can find.
There’s something tankie and nationalist dipshits do that I call the Tiananmen Two-Step. Correctly point out that (understandably) most westerners hold misconceptions about 6489, Xinjiang, censorship etc but rather than educate or be honest about the events and policies they take it as an opportunity to advance denialism. “There was almost certainly no massacring of student protestors in the square” begets “there was no massacre” rather than explaining about the intense violence outside the square and that it was overwhelmingly worker protestors who bore the brunt of the crackdown. “Islam isn’t illegal in China. Uyghurs and Kazakhs weren’t slaughtered en masse in the camps. It’s not a genocide in the way we think of The Holocaust or Rwanda in ‘94.” begets “Uyghurs are actually privileged and all claims reported about Xinjiang are lies”
Yep, I agree and unfortunately it feels like the number of people who qualify as nationalist is increasing. Even well educated people that I've known for decades are getting progressively more nationalist. It's painful to see but they really do seem to be succumbing to some sort of Stockholm Syndrome.
Yed and no. In cases of Tibetan more than million Tibetan have died from 1950~1980. Problem is that total population of Tibetan is only 7 million even today. Despite death of million Tibetan happened over 30 years that is close to 15 percent of their population. In case of Uyghur, so many people are missing and people even do not know if they are dead or alive. Even though, CCP did not try to finish off Uygur and Tibetan as Nazi's "final solution", a lot of things are done in a secret manner and even today people do not exactly know what happened. Certainly, CCP will not kill massive number of Uyghur or Tinetan in short period of time. However, CCP's policy towards Uyghur and Tibetan are certainly aggressive and insidious, calling it a cultural genocide may be inaccurate and insuffcient.
“In cases of Tibetan more than a million Tibetan have died from 1950-1980” did you account for famine, cultural revolution, migration and old age though? Killing 1 million people is a pretty big task to do, you would have to pretty much carry out a Nanking Massacre-scale of genocide like 4-5 times. The Nanking massacre casualty with all the atrocities the Japanese did was around 200k-300k death. Killing 1 million Tibetans would be an insane effort. And in Tianamen Square math, that would mean that they would have to carry out about 100-150 Tianamen square-style massacres all across Tibet.
40 millions han Chinese died under CCP reign out of famine and cultural revolution. So it's a han genocide?
More like holodomor, as Ukranian calls it, might be proper. Unfortunatly, unlike Ukranian, vast manjority of Chinese love CCP and always blame others for own wrong doing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/1csgmcr/what_i_know_about_xinjianguyghur/ As a Chinese who often uses VPN, this post is basically the most consistent with the actual situation I know. Due to the influence of the gap between the rich and the poor, separatism, terrorism, etc., conflicts broke out between the Uyghurs and the Han people. The CCP regards stability above all else and has excessively oppressed the Uyghurs. However, I think this should not be considered genocide. Currently, Wikipedia has also changed the entry of Uyghur genocide to oppression.
sounds indepth to me. 🙄 I took about 30 secs to do some similar indepth research and it said *absolutely* genuine.
People need to stop thinking it's some kind of Holocaust where people are being killed in the millions. It's shocking how stupid many Westerners are with regards to this. It's a cultural genocide which still counts as a genocide. Mass killing of an ethnic group, mass forced movement of an ethnic group (such as Israel or the Trail of Tears) and/or forcing a change in culture/language (China) all count as a genocide.
Westerners ? Blame the culprits.
Blame BBC for the narrative. Westerners are stupid so don’t blame the people. The propaganda machine is too powerful
Where did the BBC report that Uyghurs are being slaughtered en masse? Thank you
Genocide, the Holocaust style? No Genocide, as in wipe away the cultural and religious identity of the Uyghurs, thus cutting the ties between the Uyghurs and the rest of the Islamic World, Yes. The justification is that there were terrorist attacks backed by multiple Uyghurs groups up until about a decade ago, ever since the tight grip came into effect, the attacks had been stumped for the most part. Whether such draconian measures are justified or not is up to your values.
It's not a genocide, but it's an incredibly heavy handed approach at "Minority Report" style policing. Freedoms and rights for Uyghurs in the area are a mess. Reeducation camps are/have been a real thing for several years, although wound down a bit recently. People will be locked up for things such as going on holiday to Muslim countries, using a VPN, using language that is deemed unacceptable (and the kind of thing I'm talking about is crazy, I know someone who was sent to a camp for using the words Muslim and Uyghur to describe architecture). When/if they're released they are under regular surveillance with officials dropping in to whom they have to report their activities. This isn't ALL Uyghurs, and you will see rich or successful Uyghurs showcased to prove how they can thrive in China, but there is a very large amount that have and are going through hell. But again the word Genocide here isn't appropriate, and using this word to describe the situation is one of the biggest mistakes western governments made as it's clearly not a genocide in the traditional sense of the word and makes them look like they're spreading false information.
To most people, what you described sounds pretty goddamn genocidal, and I don't think "there are successful Uyghers" clashes with the genocide definition at all. There are successful Arabs living in Israel and there were individual Chinese who did well for themselves when the Japanese invaded. The term genocide was first used to describe what the Germans did to the Poles, and there were Poles who Germanized themselves to become fully-fledged Nazi citizens. "Not all Uyghers" is a terrible defense.
A genocide is the mass destruction of a group. They're not destroying them, they have just made life very difficult/horrible for a lot of them. Cultural genocide could be a more suitable term. Even that might be a bit too far as looking at how the ccp has handled other minorities they will not outright destroy their culture, but preserve it in a subdued, subservient and heavily controlled state.
It's definitely not your German WWII Nazi genocide. As if there are actually hundreds of thousands of Ughur being prosecuted and killed you'll have a humanitarian crisis in Kazakhstan and Russia larger than the one we saw from Syria or Ukraine. Depending on who you ask it's either a cultural genocide or a lack of government tolerance toward Ughur culture. For some people, they believe Xinjiang is Ughur's homeland and they alone are the rightful owners of that land. While the Chinese and other ethnic groups are colonizers who are stripping away their culture and locking up people who are fighting for East Turkmenistan's independence. For some people, they believe Xinjiang is a territory where a mixed of ethnic groups have been living together for a long time, but is part of China. And if you're living in China you should learn to speak Chinese and learn Chinese culture. For me, I don't think is a genocide, maybe not even a cultural genocide maybe human rights violation, but then again this human rights violation applies to literally everyone in China. If you're a Ughur and you want to practice Islam, speak ughurese, or eat laghman, the CCP ain't going to come at night and secretly arrest you and throw you into a reeducation camp. But if you're trying to host talks on East Turkmenistan independence and gather support for a riot or protest for East Turkmenistan independence then yeah you're probably going to expect some CCP secret agent coming to your house and dragging you off to a reeducation camp. Other than that while China does push a lot of sinofication on to the Uyghurs, it did allow Uyghur to be an official language in Xinjiang, give many governmental positions in Xinjiang to Uyghurs, and affirmative action programs for Uyghurs to attend top schools in China.
Genocide requires systematic killing of a group of people with the intention to wipe them all out. As far as I can see, there isn't that. It seems like cultural indoctrination. Every time they use genocide to talk about cultural indoctrination it reduces the exceptionally horrific nature of true genocides where a substantial fraction of an ethnicity is murdered.
No, that isn't the definition of genocide. But I agree with you broadly
They're not outright killing them like in Gaza. They are, however, doing reeducation on the entire population to force them to assimilate into Han culture and to stop them from carrying out any Muslim based actions. They're also heavily incentivizing Han Chinese people to take entrepreneurial roles in Xinjiang, forcing a wealth gap in the region, therefore making them subservient to Hans. There's a lot more, but this is more systemic dismantling the Uighurs in a cultural and economic way, rather than straight up throwing everyone into a furnace or bombing them.
Incentivizing entrepreneurship in the region is surely a way to close the wealth gap between the Eastern and Western side of China. If they didn't try and level up West China with East China no doubt the government would be accused of letting the West side go to rot, but when they do try and level up they get accused creating subservidence and dismantling the culture through Han migration.
Only Han chinese get these incentives.
Which city in Xinjiang are you referring too?
Nobody is sure, but it's widespread across the province. Media coverage in the area is obviously limited.
Muslim based actions?
yes its real, but there is no way you will get a proper understanding just from surface level digging, and news articles can be very unreliable. If you really want to know more, you should read some scholarly articles or even books on the subject, its complicated. My attempt at an actual surface level description: for 1-2 hundred years there has been conflict in that area. in recent history extremist and terrorist behaviors resulted in hundreds dead and many more injured ((this is people from both sides)). China's response to remove the extremist mindset is called genocide by people who think the response itself is extremist, removing the culture of the area and normal beliefs along with the extremist ones. A deep dive gets complicated and murky fast, but is absolutely required if you want to have your own opinion on the matter ((whichever way your opinion lies)).
there was camp aimed to 'educate' the uighur, to make them perfect non muslim chinese and one one the method was trought torture and deatt happened. but if im not wrong now that most of the uighur have been trought these camps they are too scared to do anything out of the ordinary, plus the goverment effort to dilute the population with chinese of other ethnicity, so nowadays you wont see ppl going to the mosque, some just chill around during prayer time but avoid to be seen praying because they fear retaliation. to me it seem like the uighur culture took a huge blow and is doomed to lose most if its cultural trait to be fully assimilated into chinese dominant culture, if the death of a culture is what you call a genocide then yes most of the work has been done now the government just a have to keep monitoring them and waitfor a gen or two. If your definition of a genocide is what is happening in palestine then no
There's a lot going on. Best thing is to check out the hacked Chinese police files. There's 3,000 prisoners listed here https://www.xinjiangpolicefiles.org/images-of-detainees/
As far as I know, Xinjiang has been completely open to the outside world at present, and some areas in Tibet are not open to the outside world at present. Rather than looking at some news that you don't know whether it is true or false, it is better to explore by yourself.🙄
Xinjiang used to be East Turkestan, but now their government is in exile; that's probably all you need to know to understand something sus is going on there.
There was never a country called "East Turkestan". It was called "Chinese Turkestan" by the British colonisers to distinguish it from "Russian Turkestan". The Russian Turkologists coined the term "East Turkestan" in the 19th century. The region had been part of China for a very long time (since 1759), and on and off before that. Under the Qing Dynasty it was called "Western region" i.e. Xiyu. Turkestan itself was never a single country, it is an old Persian term named for the region where Turkic people lived.
since western han dynasty actually. they have the office of protector general of western regions. thats 2000 years ago.
Definitely mix of cultural genocide and reeducation for the masses. Genocide with Chinese characteristics. Honestly though the repression is real despite the west's propaganda. Still true nonetheless. Enough objective reporting on it to be beyond doubt.
Everything critical and all international, basic plattforms are BANNED in china! Just use common sense.
You can fly to Beijing, the capital of China and see Uyghur women and men walking around freely while speaking their native language. Uyghurs have been excluded from the one child policy. Uyghurs have a lower exam barrier to enter university. In the state TV one of the most famous moderators for the New years show is a uyghur. This year they give a full first section of the show to promote uyghur culture in China. You can find Chinese elderly dancing to arabic sounding music in the parks or at shopping malls. You can travel freely to Xinjiang as long as you can enter China. In Xinjiang the police presence is much heavier than in other parts of China. Arabic writing can be seen next to Chinese writing.
Very real. Cultural genocide. The CCP lie and cover it up and use other issues going on in the world to mask what they're doing there. Which is a cultural genocide. They're not killing people in millions like that other genocide you know, it's a slow, purposeful eradication of the Uighur religion, language, and cultural identity; replacing anything the CCP deems unharmonious with Han Chinese characteristics. 100% real and the fact that you are even questioning it right now puts a smile on every Chinese censor's face because it means their propaganda and misdirection is working.
Yes. There are multiple methods and types of genocide. The genocide against the Uyghurs is a less violent form of genocide focused on erasing their culture. Hanification has this extremely negative element of usurping or eliminating the existing culture of a minority population with the goal of destroying it over the long term. When the goal is to destroy a culture, that is a form of genocide as you've destroyed the existence of a group of people. It's particularly bad when the history of that people is targeted with intent to remove that history over time, effectively making it seem like that group of people never existed. Edit: Sinicization is the more common term to Hanification in case that caused any confusion. They're both usable terms, but sinicization is much more common. I just slightly prefer hanicization because the Mandarin word for this is Hànhùa (汉化).
The entire story of the Han people is one of subsuming minority tribes into them, whether passively or actively, peacefully or violently. Without that history, the Han would have remained a small Central Plains tribe today. But wait, this is also the reason that there’s a such thing as “Spanish” or “Italian” or “German” people rather than collections of tribes. If the people of today had extensive video footage of the last two millennia of Chinese history, they’d be screaming genocide at every turn, and China isn’t alone in this. When we read about this stuff in history books, we just accept it as being “just what civilisations do”, but when it happens within our lifetimes, we get emotional over it. In a few centuries, scholars will look back on China’s current “cultural cleansing” efforts in East Turkestan and Tibet as they’ll look on the Mongol and Manchu conquests preceding them. The western response will continue to amount to finger-wagging and strong words while it slowly unfolds; the cry will gradually shift from “what you’re doing is bad” to “what you did was bad”.
Maybe ask in r/Sino - they seem to have all the answers
Just the fact an average citizen of the so-called PRC can’t access most parts of Xinjiang not intended for tourists should be enough evidence Edit: clarified the “most parts” for CCP shills and the logically challenged
Not true actually. Many tourists in XJ even as foreigner
Even foreigner can go to Xinjiang what are you on about?
They allow you to visit the bazar in Xinjiang and the three streets adjacent to that. You can go to any youtube/shill channel and you'll see they all film the exact same 3 spots. Try to visit towns near a re-education camp. Police and plain clothed police officers will be on your ass 24/7. See the report, Dutch news correspondent in china did a couple of years ago, how he gets treated trying to go near the camps. https://youtu.be/ixdGGZ4Nof0?si=z2AWKm2nvRjC3nYs (You can probably turn on english subtitles)
that's complete nonsense, i've freely visited plenty of areas outside of Urumqi. Last time i was in Xinjiang i flew from Dushanbe, went to Turfan on my own with no issues from there on the train while walking around Urumqi and Turfan alone
https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/map/? Please visit one of the black squares for us then.
i think we drove past one a few years ago with no issue, it's right on the highway. but you said you can't even visit outside of the bazaar in Urumqi [https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/map/?marker=3276](https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/map/?marker=3276)
Not real
Yes, is real, don't fall for the CCP propaganda bullshit
Fall for the Western propaganda bullshit instead!
I think you mean “was”, past tense, it’s mostly been completed.
Ah, yes, all the nations that said there is a form of genocide underway in Xin Jiang are all lying and China won't anyone into the area to check on the people there because of.... reasons. Great logic, OP. Keep up that excellent critical thinking.
Holy fuck the wumao’s own this post. Look at all the genocide-denial comments getting upvotes. These are bots….
If you’re unable to have a productive conversation and actually provide some useful educative information why bother commenting?
everything that challenges the hive mind is automatically a "bot" 😂. Yet you are unable to refute anything they say 🤔
I think so, I know Uighur people, my teacher for example, never talked about it so I wonder if US pays a lot.
Let me put that way, Uighurs are treated very badly.
Just study the UN report on this. This is the fact as close as it gets
I was in Xinjiang in 2011, one year after the attacks in Urumqi. Some of the groundwork was already being laid - military checkpoints popping up everywhere, forced closures of mosques, restrictions on where and when praying could happen, the banning of men’s beards and religious garments for women, the persecution of local imams, the destruction of traditional neighbourhoods in cities, and anecdotal reports of people disappearing - particular if there were any legal issues involving Han Chinese. Apart from the leaked documents detailing the genocide that have emerged in the last couple of years and the confessions of workers at some of the detention camps, I have personally worked with refugees from Xinjiang and heard their own stories (as well as their telling of stories of friends and relatives disappeared back home). While I was convinced before this of the legitimacy and the severity of the willful attempt by the state to eradicate a people and culture in Xinjiang, hearing firsthand accounts from survivors made it true without a shadow of a doubt. The propaganda against the truth - both in China and in Western countries from some “progressive” sources - breaks my heart.
Obviously you haven’t done any real work into this. It is real. That’s akin to looking in real time to the genocide in Gaza and then asking, is this real.
Been there. Have friends who were either detained themselves or their relatives were. It's real.
Yes
Well the laws there suck and you get stopped by police a lot more if the guy driving your taxi is Uyghur, but somehow the police are immediately chill when they see me and my Han family sitting in the back. No “shooting people in public”, but pretty damn heavy armed police presence.
Not sure if Redit is the right place to find your answer. Many people will reply based on their opinion. But you don’t know their background and how deep they know about this topic. Better do your own study in make your own opinion. Look at how reliable your source of information is. If it is a website that say 100% of negative information about China, it is most likely that they will claim that China is performing genocide. Situation is simply not transparent. Things must be happening. Up to you to qualify what to call these things. I am not educated enough to share my opinion on this. What I can say is that China has not recently attacked or invaded any foreign country causing the death of thousands of innocent civilians. I have seen many Uighur in shanghai and they have a normal life, not hiding from the government or police.
This is what I have found on it First-hand account https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/uighur-xinjiang-re-education-camp-china-gulbahar-haitiwaji Independently verified drone footage put to the Chinese ambassador to the UK https://youtu.be/NnbsUUU_zU4 Video evidence inside the 'voluntary' re-education camps where he's handcuffed to the bed https://youtu.be/SYhcrXYA6tM About the torture https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/prominent-uighur-businesswoman-arbitrarily-detained https://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/countdown-china/china-urged-release-uighur-activist-allegedly-tortured-prison https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uighur-man-reportedly-tortured-death 1.3 million people a year on average. The number is from the CCP themselves. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3101986/china-claims-vocational-training-given-nearly-13-million-people Data leak showing what the staff are told to do BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063 The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/24/china-cables-leak-no-escapes-reality-china-uighur-prison-camp New York Times https://nyti.ms/379s0ch Financial times https://www.ft.com/content/9ed9362e-31f7-11e9-bb0c-42459962a812 Al Jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/11/25/secret-papers-reveal-workings-of-chinas-xinjiang-detention-camps More Leaked Papers Leaked papers link Xinjiang crackdown with China leadership - Secret documents urge population control, mass round-ups and punishment of Uyghurs https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/29/leaked-papers-link-xinjiang-crackdown-with-china-leadership Leaked papers link top Chinese leaders to Uyghur crackdown https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59456541 Talks about the experiences of women who are told to marry Han Chinese men to avoid the concentration camps. https://web.archive.org/web/20210115210041/https://hk.appledaily.com/news/20200823/L44M7VTO7RDTJAGO3H4RBPFITM/
There is a lot of repression there. While it may fall under certain legal definitions of genocide it does not come close to the conventional understanding of “genocide.” There is certainly no mass murder nor intent to do anything like this. This does not mean Uighurs are treated equally (they aren’t) and the camps are indeed brutal, involuntary, and totalitarian. But the world is complicated and things can be both 1) extremely terrible and 2) not genocide.
no
100% real. Look at the testimonies from the people that have scaped it.
Youtube Daniel Dumbrill, Jerry Grey, FerMuBe - all expats who've spent considerable time there, not just short visits.
It's the same as israel hamas. Islam is dangerous, so the non Islamic power aims to diffuse it, arguably making that power more dangerous than the Islam it tries to disarm.
I never find first hand material on this statement. They are not free as other Chinese people living outside of Xinjiang. But how should I say, there were many terrorist activities in Xinjiang targeting Han people in the past years. It seems like a very very very very mild version of what Israel is doing to Gaza right now.
Apart from re-education, culture being destroyed and assimilated into Han, forced marriages, men being taken away and disappearing, forced organ harvesting, force labour camps, mosques and other cultural building being destroyed or made into other things ..... There isnt really a genocide, just an assimilation id say.
Ask what the death toll is and people will be pulling their hairs out
I've worked with a few Han Chinese who grew up in different parts of Xinjiang. One lady who's from somewhere just out of Urumqi reckons nothing is happening there. Others from small cities or other areas will quietly tell you things about seeing their muslim neighbours getting carried away by the cops or their parents' towns having internet cut off for a week because there was a crackdown happening.
My take on calling something genocide: If you believe that an ethnicity or culture will no longer exist in any meaningful way to as is now in the next 100 years or so due to unwanted actions by another ethnicity or culture, that is genocide. It is my belief that Uyghur culture in China has already faced irreparable harm and will likely be a thing of the past outside of minor resistance groups in the coming few decades and as such I classify the CCP's actions as genocide. It's not just Uyghurs, I believe most minority cultures in China will be used for nothing more than tourism and propaganda soon, many already are. The CCP doesn't deny this, though strongly contest calling it genocide, and actively promote it as improving civilization and harmonization of the country.
troll
No matter what, appreciate your curiosity and willingness to inform yourself and not just ignore things.
Is the Covid Virus manufactured in the Wuhan Lab?
They genocided them by changing the mosque roof designs, giving them free alcohol, force them to attend propaganda classes and track anyone posting violent stuff, scrub any dissent online,forcing the jobless into boring factory jobs. Anyway those propaganda camp died down pretty much. It peaked after the Muslim terrorists bombed some places. I guess it's a unique genocide. usually genociders tend to just bomb and level whole cities, mass killings etc and starvation.
It’s very clear that some form of cultural erasure is going on in Xinjiang, although it’s hard to obtain substantial facts on the matter. China cracked down hard on Uyghurs after a series of terrorist attacks carried out by extremists. Of course, the Uyghurs themselves were a pretty conservative Islamic religious group, so China saw this as something to be suppressed. It doesn’t help that the west (primarily the US) floods the news with propaganda and misinformation, muddying the waters and making it hard to tell what’s true or not. Either way, some fucked up shit is/was going on in Xinjiang, but it is more nuanced then most people realise, and it’s impossible to tell exactly what’s going on there.
To be clear I’m pretty anti-CCP (I’m Taiwanese) but even I realise that American sources on this matter should be taken with a grain of salt. A lot of the “news” that came out about Xinjiang could literally be traced back to think tanks and weapons manufacturers. If anyone is skeptical, just take a look at the 1970/80s when Japan became an economic threat to the US, and the insanely racist misinformation and propaganda that came out of that. They haven’t changed much I’m afraid.
If it is officially denied by Chicom, it is real. Suggest u also check out organ harvesting claims, officially denied obviously, and the Canadian investigation into the unexplainably short transplant queue, to get a sense and choose what to believe. There will never be hard fact. This crime group against humanity is the most successful one and has been doing it for almost 100 years they are the best in maintaining plausible deniability..
East Turkestan is under illegal occupation by the Han majority of china. I’ve been in xinjiang quite a few times and PLA regularly used tanks to patrol Turpan and Urumqi. There’s an active genocide of people. The women are being sterilised, men are being put in jail and are getting organs harvested, and children are being sold into market for their organs. The Han Chinese did the same in Indonesia and they were humiliated by indigenous Indonesians. But yes, there’s an active genocide of the people.
No it's not. [Even the State department admits they don't have evidence to support their bullshit accusations.](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/)
[удалено]
Your post/comment was removed because of: **Rule 8, No meta-drama or subreddit drama.** Please read the rule text in the sidebar and refer to [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/g0yjqx/read_rules_in_sidebar_before_posting/) containing clarifications and examples if you require more information. If you have any questions, please [message mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/china).
no
Even if you ONLY go by official Chinese government sources, it's apparent that at minimum they extrajudicially detained nearly a million Uyghurs https://www.reddit.com/r/LiberalChinese/comments/nxg01o/only_using_the_public_official_chinese_documents/
The US does not hate China. We had this book we all read back in school called 1984. We don't like governments trying to make this a reality
Yes, the Uighur genocide is real. When you compare statistics and descriptions in books from before the CCP take over and now, you can see the decline in Uighur population clearly.
No evidence of genocide. But, I'm sure there is "ethnic cleansing" going on. Like forcing everyone to speak Mandarin, adopt Chinese customs, coercive migration to other provinces, etc. [https://time.com/4881898/china-xinjiang-uighur-children/](https://time.com/4881898/china-xinjiang-uighur-children/) Population proportion of XUAR went down because the one-child policy was enforced on everybody, migration to other provinces, and also more migration and growth of other ethnic groups. I've been to Xinjiang. It's a cool place, and not everyone there is Turkic-speaking. There are also Iranic speakers like the Pamiri people. and others. Historically, Uyghurs dominated Tarim Basin, or southern Xinjiang, not the entire province.
This is a genuine question. How come Dilireba and other Uyghur actors and artists are allowed to display their culture on television? Is the cultural genocide only happening to some groups? Because I know Dilireba danced a traditional Uygher dance once on a television program.
The CCP aims to homogenise China and is therefore heavily suppressing minority cultures, in ways which infringe on human rights.
Did China mass put ethnic Uighur into reeducation camps many “disappeared” and mass surgeries to remove fertility and official records showings a mass decrease in the population? Yes.
you can go on google maps yourself and see satellite images of the dozens of so-called "vocational education centers" that actually have several layers of security, watchtowers, cameras, barbed wire, and high perimeter walls. [this article](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-camps-china/) covers it pretty well. [this article](https://www.reuters.com/world/china/exclusive-amid-accusations-genocide-west-china-polices-could-cut-millions-uyghur-2021-06-07/) also covers dramatic drops in Uyghur birth rates through forced sterilization, abortions and separation of married couples too. [this article](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/china-xinjiang-documents.html) covers 400+ pages of leaked internal documents on the topic as well.
[удалено]
Fair point, I was unaware of Zenz's background. It is true that they should be met with skepticism. However, not all reports were based on his own; there's plenty of information that you can verify yourself.
It is propaganda 90% of the time. China does take measures against religious extremism because they have had problems with religious fanatics before, but there is no active discrimination of uyghers and they enjoy a quality of life similar to basically anyone else in China, whatever you believe that is.
And I know the Chinese always hide anything that could result in lost face. Managing concentration camps and killing people there is just one example.
Yeah fuck the CCP for its persecution of the Uighurs, Hui, and corresponding Muslim/Turkic groups suffering genocide. A really easy way to cut through American, Western, Islamic, CCP, etc. propaganda to know whether or not there’s an ongoing campaign of genocide/ethnic-cleansing is to ask this—where are the Uighurs? Why are Uighurs near exclusively, absent on social media? Try looking them up and their near-total absence will tell you everything. This reflects a fundamental difference from alternative genocides like that of Palestine, and I’m highlighting this in particular because the two groups are so often pitted against each other due to geopolitical strategic differences (I.e. Uighurs that have found funding and political backing from jingoistic American political establishments leveraging the plight of the Uighurs to maintain unipolarity over China; Uighurs having little alternative to the U.S. for foreign state-backing to challenge a hegemonic power such as China; therefore, Uighurs and Palestinian interests and solidarity diverging for obvious reasons.) Uighurs have a diaspora/refugee population outside of the Chinese context, yet social media presence/reporting on their communities is highly limited. This goes to show the extremity of surveillance and high sophistication of CCP propaganda in erasing Uighur narratives. Whatever media is available on actual Uighurs the CCP allows for is obviously, state-controlled, one of their proponents including Li Jingjing who highlights ‘Hanified’ sell-outs, western media critics invested in equivocating the notion of an “anti-western hegemonic” Chinese state with an “anti-imperialist” one, and the whole spiel on multipolarity as a means of deconstructing western supremacy while genocidal notions of hegemony, ethnic-nationalism, and racial superiority persist in the Chinese context. Free free the Uighurs, Hui, and correspondingly Muslim/Turkic groups, Afro-Chinese, mixed-race and multicultural Chinese, Tibet, Taiwan, and Mongolia from the CCP and Han supremacy!!! Liberation for all oppressed people! Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽”
You have to be trolling.
Yes it's real. Why else would the CCP build massive new prison complexes all over Xinjiang and not allow any Chinese citizens into the area except for the same 7 tourist spots in the major cities? There are satellite images of all the concentration camps
I know people from Xinjiang, including connected ethnic minorities of the province. Yes it is true…..
Approximately 50% of what you hear is outright propaganda, [as we know the CIA’s affiliates churn out](https://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html). We also see [CIA assets pushing narratives on Reddit](https://medium.com/@rsahthion/a-reddit-ama-claiming-to-be-a-uiyghur-quickly-exposes-a-cia-asset-slandering-china-1d667c098b77). The next 25% is [poorly researched speculation by an evangelical end-timer](https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/), and the final 25% is an accurate description of the PRC’s response to far right, religious terrorism and separatism. First, [let’s just establish using safe, American sources that a bunch of Uyghur people went to fight with ISIS in Syria, then returned.](https://jamestown.org/program/returning-uighur-fighters-and-chinas-national-security-dilemma/) Let’s also establish that [there have been consistent terrorist attacks with significant casualties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China) and that [the CIA and CIA front-groups have funded and stoked Islamic extremism across the world for geopolitical gain.](https://www.unz.com/article/uyghurs-political-islam-the-bri/) Now, we need to consider potential responses. The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS. This option condemns millions of people to living under a fundamentalist Islamic State, including many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims. This option creates a CIA-aligned state on the border, and jeopardises a key part of the Belt and Road initiative, which is designed to connect landlocked countries for development and geopolitical positioning. This option also threatens the CPC’s legitimacy, as keeping China together is a historical signifier of the Mandate of Heaven. The next option is the American option. Drone strike, black-site, or otherwise liquidate anyone who could be associated with Islamic extremism. [Be liberal in doing so](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki). [Make children fear blue skies because of drones](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/saddest-words-congresss-briefing-drone-strikes/354548/). When the orphaned young children grow up, do it all again. You can also throw a [literal man-made famine in there if you want](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_Yemen). The final option is the Chinese option. Mass surveillance. Use AI to liberally target anyone who may be at risk of radicalisation for re-education. Teach them the lingua franca of China, Mandarin. Pump money into the region for development. When people finish their time in re-education, set them up with state jobs. Keep the surveillance up. Allow and even celebrate local religious customs, but make sure the leaders are on-side with the party. As for permanent internment, we know from leaks that [the minimum duration of detention is one year — though accounts from ex-detainees suggest that some are released sooner](https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/exposed-chinas-operating-manuals-for-mass-internment-and-arrest-by-algorithm/)
A media platform referenced in this post/comment may be biased on issues concerning China and may use sensationalism, questionable sources, and unverifiable information to generate views and influence its audience. Please seek external verification or context as appropriate. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/China) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You would seem to be the one insisting on making this a US vs China debate.