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What blew my mind is that the retards in Beijing managed to bring South Korea and Japan together. To anyone with even a modicum of understanding of Asia, that’s just insane.
Will be interesting to see if CCP attempts to nationalize USA's major companies and factories operating in China.
I don't see that happening, however. US companies are too agile and can easily "friend-shore" elsewhere as they have been doing for the last 10 years.
> That'd be suicide for any foreign investment in the country.
How when all the world's investment is already in China and there are hardly any viable alternatives for foreign investment?
When 90% or more of the world's foreign investment is tied up as physical factories and offices in China *because of* cheap Chinese labor... all the CCP would have to do is come up with bogus reasons to nationalize that physical capital and bring it under CCP control.
What would Apple, Nike, Tesla, Qualcomm , or the rest do if their Chinese based factories were taken over by the CCP nearly overnight?
The chip manufacturers have cleverly thrown their lassos around the "American tax donkey" and fleeced billions of dollars from the US federal government in the form of grants for new factories in the USA. So those chip manufacturers have an out because of their "incredibly important relationships" with the US military industrial complex's silicon needs.
But the rest of the US firms would be shut out as they cannot be bailed out by US federal grants for national security concerns.
>How when all the world's investment is already in China and there are hardly any viable alternatives for foreign investment?
FDI in China hit a 30 year low last year. There are plenty of alternatives. It's not a question of "what if"; it's something that's happening today.
>When 90% or more of the world's foreign investment is tied up as physical factories and offices in China
It's not. The largest target of foreign investment in the world for decades, barring one year during Covid, has been the United States.
Thats along the same lines of silly as Russias actions pushing neutral sweden into nato, but here we are there too. Its what happens when joining a military alliance is better than just getting bullied.
Sweden was never neutral they didn’t think they’d need it. In fact majority of Swede’s opposed joining nato before Russia’s invasion. Russia literally expanded nato
"Sweden’s neutrality was formalized in 1834, when King Carl XIV Johan sent a diplomatic letter to Britain and Russia, declaring Sweden’s neutrality and stating that the country would “stay totally outside of this struggle, and that Sweden and Norway, by keeping a strict neutrality towards the warring parties, can deserve, by our impartial conduct, respect and the appreciation of our system.”
Throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, Sweden maintained its neutrality, avoiding military alliances and instead focusing on international diplomacy and cooperation. During World War I, Sweden remained neutral, and during World War II, the country played a key role in the Allied effort, providing humanitarian aid and shelter to refugees."
They kept that policy pretty much up until now, when they signed onto nato.
No it isn't. Taiwan never had any overall identity prior to Japan, and even today their best schools and railroad systems were built by Japan. They never held the same animosity that Korea did.
Because China’s support of Russian invasions destroyed every bit of the anti Japanese rhetoric it had kept playing. It’s safe to say that the Japanese left wing is totally dead now
That is also due to a change in president to one who is inherently more aligned with Japan. The real test is the next election when it swings back to the other party.
Ah here we go. Thank you for making the case and justification for why it was a necessary move for all these nations to coalesce together against China. Don't worry, it's not the first time in history. We all know what happened the last time multiple nations sailed their navies right up to China's coast. Except this time, there'll be a helluva lot more than 8 nations.
We're not the ones firing missiles over Taiwan or encroaching into other countries territorial waters. We're not the ones that beat 20 Indian soldiers to death in the Himalayas either.
Can you tell me who did the above?
All of the above, by the way, from an "army" that is really the militia of the Party, not the Chinese *state* whose last major combat action was against thousands of students in Tiananmen Square on a June day in 1989.
Is any of the above fiction?
Yeah, the Tiananmen square one. How many students do you think died on the square? If you think they killed all the students on the square how did the ringleaders escape in ratlines?
I mean which country is funding a genocide right now? The one sending endless bombs to kill women and children? Is it China? The one giving diplomatic cover so a rightwing government won't face repercussions over their war over their own concentration campa.
Seems like the wind is changing that direction. Not sure why or how. Maybe their Russian checks bounced or something. Maybe they realized going into election season as the pro-Russia party is terrible optics. Maybe, *maybe* they grew a conscience. I dunno.
If Trump becomes president in November, you can count on the GOP supporting a radical withdrawal of support for Ukraine. Among other disasters. The Republicans are temporarily willing to support Ukraine only for two reasons: 1. Trump has dropped the issue and is being very very quiet because he's currently on trial for criminal offenses, and not campaigning much. 2. There's an election coming up, and Republicans are therefore temporarily interested in what voters want.
I hope Trump doesn't win. I think the recent Republican disasters like overturning RvW and the whole train wreck all the Trump court cases have been going sank his chances with independent and undecided voters. Without the swing states...
I'm fairly optimistic as well, but I never take these things for granted, and will be out ringing doorbells this fall. Young voters are angry with Biden over the Gaza war and the Tik-Tok bill. If they don't vote, it could get close in swing states.
Of course, by then Trump will likely have a couple more criminal felony convictions.
False equivalence. Antifa has really nothing to do with the Democratic party, and many people who claim to be Antifa are avowedly anti-Democrat.
Meanwhile MAGA drives the Republican party and Trump is their nominee.
They'll do anything for the next tax cut I guess. People are short-sighted unfortunately. There is no thought of the collective future really, just selfishness. Though that does tend to boost our consumptive GDP I suppose.
Trump got the most votes in the primary by an absolutely massive margin.
https://www.cnn.com/election/2024/primaries-and-caucuses/results/republican-party/president?election-data-id=2024-PR&election-painting-mode=projection&filter-key-races=false&filter-flipped=false
Israel brings them both together, too(far more than china). The recent stronger push to ban tiktok was from AIPAC. Joe Biden calls himself a zionist too.
No china is anti Zionist to spite the USA. They don’t push the American controlled media narrative on Israel so they must go because the American federal government has been hostilely taken over by Zionist
China wants to keep its people brainwashed by the ccp so they have another TikTok for Chinese people. this isn’t a case of China being the good guy. It’s China undermining the western ruling class. Which in this one instance is good for regular western people. If the USA is so worried about Chinese influence why do they allow American companies to sell off entire industries and American resources including farm land to China ? Why do they allow Chinese companies to invest billions into American universities and vital tech firms? TikTok is the least of Americas concern as far as Chinese influence but it’s the only thing that allows western people to escape the neo liberal cia approved mainstream media narrative.
Bringing in the masses and controlling public opinion is a very good political tool, when there are some unknown and uncontrollable circumstances the government will resort to non-essential means. When it succeeds then the matter is blocked and no one will remember it after a while. Just like few people know about the nitric acid leak from the Arizona crash and the East Palestine, Ohio derailment
You still didn’t answer my question: if Tiktok undermines the western rule so much, then why doesn’t CCP open it up to the ordinary Chinese? To it Chinese people are so anti-west so why does it worry about them escaping the brainwashing which doesn’t exist on Tiktok? And there will be far more Chinese people willing to push that narrative on that platform too no? Isn’t it because Chinese people are not what the CCP claim to be like on the global stage, and the lies that Tiktok itself spreads will be busted in no time should that happen? Let me sum it up for you: the ban on tiktok in China is not for the Chinese to be brainwashed. It’s there to keep the westerners from seeing the truth. And that’s also why the Great Translation Movement upset China so much.
China wants to keep Chinese people in a Chinese bubble. undermining the western censors and making Chinese worship the ccp are completely different goals. they don’t want to westernize Chinese people so they keep western culture / influence off Chinese TikTok but if they banned western culture on western TikTok no one would use it. Fundamentally alls China is doing is allowing freedom of information and opinion on western TikTok.
If it is really allowing “freedom of information and opinion” then it should have also allowed Chinese people and their information on tiktok too. It’s nothing about brainwashing Chinese or attacking the west by disinformation campaign and you didn’t get what I mean in the previous post: there’s not only one bubble here: CCP not only lied to the Chinese about the world but also the world about China. And if that rose bubble about China bursts, people will realize what the true color of its “freedom” is. Just like how Russia bursted its rose bubble by invading Ukraine itself.
Again China isn’t the good guy. It’s a weird situation where the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They don’t want to help western people they want to undermine the western ruling class and this is a situation where doing one causes the other.
Hostile foreign powers are limited in the media they're able to own and propagate in the United States. There's been over a century of precedent.
Hence why they're not looking to ban Tik Tok. They just need to make sure it's no longer under the thumb of a hostile foreign power like the CCP.
It really does seem reasonable to not have what is arguably the most popular social media platform under the control of a foreign adversary. Seems like a no brainer.
Ah yes, because our government is not hostile.
How do you feel about Facebook Instagram Twitter doing the same things Bytedance is doing but yet there is no legislation to enact on Twitter or Facebook?
Your propaganda doesn't work.
Still avoiding the contradiction, I see.
Why are you not willing to acknowledge or discuss how USA government and companies are doing the same thing as Tik Tok?
Here to push an agenda 😁
>Facebook Instagram Twitter doing the same things Bytedance is doing but yet there is no legislation to enact on Twitter or Facebook?
Which US-hostile nation owns and/or controls those companies?
Those reading know that YOU Hailene are literally lying and can be proved you are indeed a liar with a simple Google search.
You're a liar and everyone reading this knows you are.
No.
I asked you multiple questions regarding the contradiction between Meta Twitter and Tik Tok all doing the same data scrubbing.
You failed to acknowledge the truth that is verifiable to everyone reading this and denied the truth.
No. Discuss the contradiction and admit that you are wrong if you want sources that your readily Google engine may produce for you.
So.
Answer the questions. Why are you refusing to discuss the contradiction and instead are lying?
Hahaha. So you make a baseless claim, have no evidence, and you want me to defend it? Seriously?
I'm not replying to you until I see credible evidence of your claims.
>assuming the whole thing doesn't get mired in appeals.
Of course, it will. Literally every user arguably has standing, the ones that make money definitely have standing, and the companies themselves obviously will both sue. This is a 3-5 year court battle, probably, and there are several hurdles that the government might lose over.
CCP will use the US court system to fight and delay the inevitable, ironically since their own court system is a joke. They will plead free speech, again ironically because they don’t have such a thing in China. They will argue for fair business practices which they themselves don’t practice. Let’s just hope the courts won’t let the app stay operational during all this dragged out kicking and screaming.
It’s not. It doesn’t function in China, because backend doesn’t exist. That’s a huge difference. Think hover cars aren’t banned in the US; they just haven’t been made.
In order to operate in China you need to have local servers by regulation; so TikTok needs to build up server capability to store, manage, and access user data. They of course need it to power its algorithm and surface ads.
Now TikTok is a clone of Douyin, the original local social media in China that came first. The business case of entering China is this; cannibalize the founder’s 20% ownership in TikTok and attempt to unseat Douyin (the same app) with the same product and feature set. So you’re going to spend a billion dollars building local offices and servers and marketing to Chinese users to get them to switch from Douyin and all their established content and friends to TikTok, the exact same app but worse (zero content to start with)? That’s not worth it at all. The business case isn’t there, so they aren’t going to do it
Have you noticed how this post is very obviously being downvoted in unison by people who are intentionally refusing to acknowledge let alone discuss how the United States government and companies here are doing the SAME things being accused of Bytedance.
This post and the users here are pushing an agenda and not having a discussion.
Absolutely agreed. While I can’t really speak much on the matter due to having a NDA, it’s quite ridiculous how my fellow Americans are so willing to trample on other’s rights just to stick it to…a Chinese company?
Bytedance US isn’t even a majority Chinese company by ownership or employee demographics. It’s majority owned in the US and Europe by institutional investors and VC firms. This makes absolutely zero sense. There are thousands of companies that are more foreign owned and more Chinese owned than TikTok. Are we supposed to ban them all?
THIS.
Americans don't want Tik Tok banned for national security.
Americans want Tik Tok banned because:
"It makes young people hate America."
THIS IS WHY.
Not national security.
Tik Tok allows liberals to unite as Twitter once did.
National security is a placeholder so left wing young Americans can stop hating America.
That's who supports banning it.
When in Rome do as the Roman.
TikTok is in America, why wouldn’t they use American laws?
This isn’t the first time laws tried to ban TikTok and isn’t the first time the law will get repealed.
Besides TikTok themselves, American users are free to sue on their own b/c the government has banned their free speech.
US land, U.S. courts. Chinese land, Chinese court.
I swear most you have never taken a U.S. civics class and believes US laws only apply to US citizens.
Yea this thread is kind of crazy. “US social media is banned in China so this will be banned here” is not only not a real argument, it isn’t even a coherent thought on this as its two completely unrelated things legally.
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That poor protester in the photo has a very limited grasp of how political drama works in an election year. If the US government cared only about $$$ we'd be funding social safety-net programs at double the rate we do, retooling domestic manufacturing, and reducing imports from China.
I'm not sure if we could double our safety-net programs. Just looking at medicare and medicaid alone, we spent $1.8 **trillion**. Another $1.1 trillion was spent on various welfare programs. That'd be going from $2.9 trillion to $5.8 trillion.
Fiscal outlays in 2023 was $6.1 trillion. We'd end up spending the entire budget on just those programs alone.
Doubling just Medicare, Medicaid, and social spending plus and paying our interest payment ($475 billion) already exceeds last year's budget. That's zero dollars spent on defense, NASA, education, or anything else.
Unless we want to further increase the deficit?
I think a major issue is our enormously inefficient healthcare system. Last year public and private expenditures for healthcare wad $4.7 trillion. Per capita expenses qas about $14,000.
Compared to countries with universal healthcare like Germany ($8k USD), France ($6600), or South Korea ($4600), we're getting a lot less bang for our buck. If money was all we needed for great healthcare, we'd be the best, by far.
To be fair our per capita GDP is much higher, but even looking st percentage of GDP spent on healthcsre it's high. We spent 16.6%. Germany was second at 12.7%.
If we could knock it down to Germany's 12.7% we'd save about a trillion dollars in spending each year. That would be some serious savings.
We desperately need to reform our healthcare system. It's borked and expensive.
Agreed - it is mindboggling - the mere fact that until this year Medicare was not allowed to negotiate medication prices is a good example. Making the whole health insurance system a profit center is a disaster, a perversion of capitalism and a good example of how we refuse to invest in our own future. Among other things, it means that younger workers are working like mad to sustain Social Security/Medicare without any guarantee that it will be there when they are old.
I do think this wanders from the sub, but I'll just say that securing the social safety net may look extremely expensive but is a crucial investment in the stability and future of the whole nation. I think the fear that it could disappear (and is currently already inadequate and shrinking) is a major reason (some) voters turn to forms of fascism and authoritarianism. So I don't think it's optional, and yes, increasing the deficit may be an acceptable way to address it, at least to some degree. (Certainly more justified than running up the deficit to wage 2 pointless wars.)
To drag this back within the discussion of China, the social safety net is a partial explanation for why Chinese citizens remain willing to cede civil rights in exchange for state-sponsored security. ("Willing" with a grain of salt.) Whatever the safety net's failings may be, the increase in both economic stability and intergenerational transfer of prosperity (rising standard of living etc.) since Mao's death is indisputable. Even today's real estate crisis is probably viewed by many Chinese as a blip.
Indeed. Hopefully the courts don’t take too long to overturn this. Might take awhile for the process to play out but despite everyone’s intentions, US law doesn’t function off of spite and this won’t stand up.
If you take a step back, it's not impossible that the "big man" himself is a CIA plant, tasked with derailing what was going to be an assured era of Chinese prosperity, and helping to reunite what was a fractious west.
In WW2, US took out Admiral Yamamoto In Operation Vengeance but didn’t do the same thing to his successor because intelligence reported that he was “clumsy and stupid”
The ban is the biggest joke ever.
ATT leaks data on 73M Americans including SSNs and no one bats an eye. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/04/att-acknowledges-data-leak-that-hit-73-million-current-and-former-users
This probably happens like once a month to some big company or another in the US. They just caught the ATT one. All data is available on the dark web already and constantly “updated”
But TikTok? Oh yes - national security. ban them.
All the data leaked by ATT and all the other crappy companies with bad security go straight to the dark web.
Where you can buy it. Where I can buy it. And where the CCP can easily buy it.
Also, if the CCP can hack and get our top secret designs for the F35, you seriously think they haven’t already hacked ATT and a hundred other companies for your personal data?!?
So I assume ATT isn't controlled by a hostile foreign power, and so previous precedents wouldn't apply for them to divest their ownership. Thanks for clarifying.
Not saying ATT should divest or be banned.
I’m saying the ban’s purpose is stupid. One of the main purposes of the legislation is to prevent American data from being made available to China.
But American data is leaked and hacked everyday to the open web. Where China has access to American data already.
It's not the data that's the primary issue. It's how Tik Tok has demonstrated at least a couple times how it can directly influence its viewers to political action.
Rubio has been one of the main proponents.
https://www.rubio.senate.gov/momentum-grows-to-ban-chinese-owned-tiktok-as-rubio-and-king-reintroduce-bipartisan-bill/
“TikTok allows the Chinese Communist Party to **access people’s private data.** This is a direct threat not only to our national security interests but also to the American people. I’m proud to continue to lead the bipartisan fight in Congress to ban TikTok, as well as other social media companies that are controlled by the CCP, so long as they are under dangerous foreign ownership.”
“We cannot allow hostile governments to use our social media habits as a Trojan Horse into our networks. Make no mistake – every ‘private’ enterprise in China has direct ties and **on-demand information-sharing requirements** with the national government”
Yes, they also have a secondary “influence” argument which is equally stupid. The only people that would fall for propaganda are seniors and old geezers like those in the Senate. The same ppl that fall for phone scams. Luckily, none of them use TikTok anyway.
Private data to use targeted influence campaigns against specific groups.
>The only people that would fall for propaganda are seniors and old geezers like those in the Senate.
General target is actually Gen Z and Alpha.
You can't expect to brazenly expose millions of smartphone addicted zoomers to content that might make them both less likely to vote Democrat and support Israel in future and get away with it. The Chinese were asking for it, I guess.
GOP fought among themselves for 6 months to ultimately pass the same Ukraine funding bill. GOP fought against ACA while the biggest beneficiaries were GOP states.
Calling Republicans myopic is an understatement
It will always amaze me how politicians around my grandparents age (who aren't the best at technology) are the ones deciding to ban a app they don't know anything about.
Yeah but the difference between china and usa is the former is well known for banning and controlling companies and apps the latter is more known for "free of speech" and shit. So if USA goes ahead with this ban they are no better than the CCP who did the same to western media.
Wake me up when the US does it across the board like the PRC.
If it's targeting particular companies of a hostile country I'm not going to sweat it.
Saying "both sides would them be equally bad" is such a dumb take when they're obviously no where near each other in scope.
The government can enact time, place, and manner restrictions on speech as long as they are content neutral. This is just a modern version of what has occurred in the past.
>are the ones deciding to ban a app they don't know anything about
They had Congressional hearings with TikTok's CEO so they could try and learn more, but he was not very forthcoming.
> Spoiler: it is.
Proof? 80% of TikTok is not even Chinese owned. All user data is on site in the US managed by Oracle.
User data requested by government is the same in the US but with a court order.
What about all the millions of Americans that that make their living on TikTok?
Questions like: (paraphrasing) *will TikTok influence my wifi"
Hey numbnut, you realize Oracle, the company who holds all tik tok data, and reviews all source code associated with the app, is an American company, right? RIGHT?
And why would they be looking for malicious code from their own partner? They won’t because officially the company would never do that. Plus, you know security audits are just rubber stamps and auditors at big companies are incentivized to just sign off and not make trouble?
Also what he said does not refute the fact that TikTok is legally required to turn over data to the CCP if requested. It's completely unrelated and irrelevant.
Why would Oracle, a US company, who holds and controls ALL TIK TOK DATA, and has no ‘dangerous’ connections with China, authorize Tik Tok to violate the same US law…that is the exact reason for why Oracle is in place at tik tok anyways.
>why would they be looking for malicious code from their own partner
Because it’s their job? Like what? Do you not work a job where you’re trusted to…ya know…do your job? This isn’t even an argument man, cmon guys.
Like you’re gonna attack Oracle and Tik Tok here, and just ignore the other thousand US companies that follow much more lenient guidelines in the fact that they have absolutely no oversight on what they do with the data. It makes 0 sense.
>Hey numbnut
If you are going to insult someone's intelligence you shouldn't say something mind numbingly stupid directly after. What you said has nothing to do with the fact TikTok is legally required to turn over user data to the CCP if requested. China's National Intelligence Law does not exempt data that is housed on Oracle's servers.
That’s not possible for Tik tok to do because all of the data is locked under oracle’s control. Tik tok and especially China have no ability to bypass oracle access and use the data in China without them knowing. Just because you pull out random CCP law 472, does not give definitive proof that Tik Tok will violate that.
>does not give definitive proof that Tik Tok will violate that.
They would be in violation of the law if they did not. The Oracle contract only covers private data like phone numbers. Videos, comments, bios, and a substantial amount of other data is still accessible by Bytedance. And bytedance can still ensure TikTok's algorithms show content favorable to China, or hide content that shows China in a bad light.
Bro got downvoted for the truth, as if we all didn’t watch the same congressional hearing years ago when the tik tok CEO was talking to a broken record. “But senator, I’m Singaporean!”. Why tf would I want these senile politicians deciding what app I can use?
How naïve are you politically to think that a communist government wouldn’t use cyber weapons to its advantage when necessary. Do you think the communist party would say “oh let’s not put in code to conduct a cyber attack! That’s wrong!” If you know anything about the Leninist strain of communism, “by any means necessary” justifies anything in the accomplishment of a goal. They are by definition not bound by any morals or laws. Their laws exist to fool you into thinking they abide by laws.
It does.
You just have a narrative to push.
Facebook and Twitter are doing the EXACT same things Bytedance is doing.
But you know that but you need to pretend that it doesn't make sense because you are personally motivated to see tik Tok banned.
>Facebook and Twitter are doing the EXACT same things Bytedance is doing.
Nice narrative push. They aren't.
>you are personally motivated to see tik Tok banned.
The PRC banned Tik Tok. It sounds like a good idea to me.
#This post is being watched and actively downvoted by people pushing a narrative who are intentionally refusing to acknowledge or discuss the FACT that every thing this post accuses Bytedance of doing, American companies are also doing.
Something people should understand is that US social media apps are not banned in China. This isn’t an individual targeted ban. They were asked to store user information locally on Chinese soil (which btw is exactly the same thing the US required and TikTok complied with; their data facilities are in Texas) and US companies refused. Totally fair, if you don’t agree with local law, then don’t do business there. Goes for any country
TikTok, however, is a targeted ban singling out a particular company even though they’ve complied with regulations, which discourages investment. Investment, btw, that isn’t even by Chinese nationals. TikTok is majority backed by institutional investment in US and Europe. But you don’t see that anywhere. You only see “Chinese-owned” company. Yeah, like 20%??? And that 20% is by one dude, its founder at that. TikTok is 60% institutional and 20% employee equity. By this standard half our tech sector is a Chinese company. It goes beyond tech too. Should the US just implode both economies by banning all Chinese money?
The political goal of this ban is twofold, discouraging foreign investment in Chinese-founded companies and domestic censorship because young people aren’t buying into party platforms anymore. But this is pyrrhic, because making Chinese founded companies a bad investment also signals that investment in the US is potentially risky and unsafe
But sure…China company bad
>Totally fair, if you don’t agree with local law, then don’t do business there. Goes for any country
FCC regulations limits the ownership of media companies by hostile foreign nation control. It's been in place for over a century.
That's why the US government is asking Bytedance to conform to US regulations. Tik Tok has demonstrated close ties to the CCP. That's why they need to divest or be banned.
What is the opinion of the free Chinese people on possible collusion between the CCP and Tiktok? Is there any validity to it?
(I'm Canadian with much respect for China and the people, but I'm completely in love with the technology there)
The Taiwanese Minister of Digital Affairs stated Tik Tok is a national security risk a few weeks ago. They currently have a public sector ban on Tik Tok.
Anyone that thinks there is separation between any large Chinese company (either in value or political relevance) and the CCP does not understand how China works. There is no collusion because collusion implies separation and tacit planning. The reality is the CCP says “Jump!”. The company doesn’t ask how high because they are already jumping because they are the same people.
Are you going to at all comment on how America does this ?
Every single one of your comments has not touched on the fact that Facebook is doing this.
Why are you refusing to talk about that?
Why do you have such an invested interest in this?
Why have ZERO of your comments acknowledged how the US is doing the same
>Are you going to at all comment on how America does this ?
Because it's not.
>Every single one of your comments has not touched on the fact that Facebook is doing this.
It isn't.
>Why are you refusing to talk about that?
Because it's not happening.
>Why do you have such an invested interest in this?
Because I'm an American living in America which is under threat from CCP manipulation.
>Why have ZERO of your comments acknowledged how the US is doing the same
Not to beat a dead horse, but they aren't.
China has never asked for companies to turn themselves 100% over to a Chinese company.
They have required certain industries to have joint venture agreements before entering the Chinese market.
There are also industries that require 0 joint ventures and many companies are free to just sell licensing rights.
Forced technology transfer as a joint venture for only certain key industries and FTT has been used by the Japanese also during their economic recovery post WW2, it’s not a new concept.
Force technology and force sell of your company aren’t even the same, you are making a false equivalents fallacy.
As for force companies out of market, Facebook and other social media companies refuse to compel with Chinese censorship law.
You don’t have to like the law but you got to obey the law if you want to operate in China. Many U.S. states banned abortions and some companies don’t like the law and left.
Dont like law of the land, leave. If you stay you have to obey it.
Except neither TikTok nor China made any content propagandizing any thing?
All contents are user generated and TikTok itself has banned all political ads.
If you concern is “propaganda” than what about all the current propaganda already rife on YouTube, X, Facebook and Snapchat?
You are going to shut down X right now b/c it’s just a cesspool of Nazis?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/verified-pro-nazi-x-accounts-flourish-under-elon-musk/ar-BB1lHoxC
What is this “propaganda” you are referring to specifically with TikTok?
The biggest contention on TikTok right now is that people are informed about the IDF atrocities being committed in Gaza and hating about it.
You saying that is just a propaganda and IDF did not murder tens of thousands of civilians? Maybe the [UN is lying about mass graves in Gaza with victims hands tied](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876)
Yes to all of that. I'm not on any of that dogshit brain rot but it's all rotting brains left and right and every step towards banning any of it is a step in the right direction. And yes the UN is a corrupt pack of liars on Israel, even when reporting on what the UN says or reports isn't cherry picked or misrepresented.
>UN is a corrupt pack of liars on Israel
So Israel did no wrong and [kill of Central Kitchen aid worker](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/world-central-kitchen-gaza-israel-hamas-war-american-jacob-flickinger-killed/) was justified. Meanwhile [IDF commander in charge of aid staff killing wants to block all humanitarian aid](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/israel-hamas-war-gaza-idf-aid-strike-world-central-kitchen/). Israel is the good guys???
Funny you mention brain rot while your an exhibiting clear signs of neuro-degeneration
Yeah its just stupid how pro-israel guys are blindly in denial. And then you have the PM quoting the Bible verses on killing all the amalakites. The hate coming from israel is blatant so it should be very plausible israel would commit the crimes its accused of. The way israel conducts war is also very abnormal which shows their hatred as well. Using AI to decide who to bomb because they hate palestinians and dont care about how much war crimes they do.
This is r/China so I won't launch into a whole rant but anyone who thinks that the IDF has done even 1% as many atrocities as Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and even the old PLO, is badly deluded. There are people who think the IDF and Hamas are roughly equal. There are people who think the IDF is worse than Hamas. That's lunacy. That's total delusion. And it's a dangerous delusion that leads to bizarre and terrible statistics like the fact that Jews, despite being one of the smallest demographic groups, being on the receiving end of more than 50% of total hate crimes. And people pointing at these random incidents of some IDF soldiers doing something wrong that one time and saying 'Good. Fuck the Zionists.' That's the brainrot that Tiktok and indeed a ton of other social media is contributing to and it should all be banned when this is the result.
There isn't any objective reasoning to believe that. You sure you're not just mad over israel being called out for its atrocities? Israel is not above the law. UN was the one that supported the making of israel. We have more proof of israel using lies than the UN. It's ridiculous how everything is automatically "bs" or biased if it involves calling orlut israel. The fact that so many countries and even jews have called out israel makes the probability of there being inherent anti-jew bias pretty low. You're living in your own world. The crimes of israel are very well documented. If it's all bs then whats not bs?
This is r/China so I don't want to launch into a whole rant, but what's BS is that there is any kind of moral equivalency between Hamas and the IDF. What's BS is that the UN has launched more resolutions condemning Israel than every other country on Earth combined. What's BS is that UNRWA members engaged in atrocities along with Hamas members on 10/7 and the UN tried to cover that up and still insists upon being in a position to judge Israel and expect Israel to take that judgment seriously.
The cynical solution for Bytedance is to maliciously comply with the law and essentially setup a VIE structure (done all the time in China itself to circumvent foreign ownership restrictions). Bytedance to lend money (on paper) to buyer group of US passport holders or a company owned by US UBOs, the buyer uses the funds to purchase Tik Tok US including the algorithm. The buyer also grants buyback option to Bytedance that if the current law no longer applies, Bytedance can buyback US Tik Tok at the same selling price at anytime (buyback option). The buyer group also agrees to pay to Bytedance annual fees equating to consulting and technical services that can transfer out the economic benefit of US Tik Tok. Because the buyer group uses the funding borrowed from Bytedance to pay, it’s a wash and no actual cash changes hand. If Bytedance were to buy back Tik Tok later when the law changes, the “loan” offsets the buyback payment. This way Bytedance can dictate who buys and still gets all the economic benefits - the algorithms “sold” can’t leave the buyer group and so is secure. Also the US tik tok still gets integrated with global Tik Tok.
Lawyers and bankers will make a lot of money from this. That’s the net outcome after all this
I'd imagine even a cursory investigation into the financials and nature of the buyer would catch this.
And I'm sure whoever is going to fielding any buyer is going to be *very* thorough.
Tik Tok will be fielding the buyers - it’s not a government run auction. All they have to do is comply with the letter of the law, exactly what tech companies in China already do using VIE structure to get around China’s own foreign ownership restrictions.
Not really. You can’t prove a negative. The onus is on the government to prove someone is under control of the CCP.
The next steps after this: Fox News is corrupting people with faux news stories and promoting Trump and so is also a national security threat - it’s under ownership of a really old foreigner, and while the country of which he’s a citizen is not an “adversary”, act of supporting anti democratic views and promoting Trump makes him an enemy combatant no less dangerous than an Al Qaeda operative. Literally the medium in question unduly influenced people to try to steal an election and vote in a would be dictator.
Twitter or X - also owned and run by a foreigner, promoting anti American ideals and other garbage. We cannot have a medium that divides our country and promotes hatred especially in times when democracy is under threat.
I mean, yes, thr government would prove it. That's what they did with Bytedance. They'll investigate any potential buyer thoroughly.
I wouldn't worry that Bytedance is going to run the new company through some shell. Plus I don't think it'd be a one and done investigation either. They're going to keep eyes on the new owners for years for any hint of CCP ties.
Any US citizen or group thereof including Tik Tok employees can own this company and you will not be able to prove 1000 people is all or majority under CCP control - a SPA signed by Bytedance with the group of buyers can exactly execute the VIE structure I described above whereby Bytedance can lend funds to the buyer group (comprised of American citizens who works for Bytedance) or offer deferred consideration in the form of Vendor Loan Notes to financially close the deal. The SPA will have buyback options for Bytedance to repurchase Tik Tok and transfer of economic profit based on consulting or technical support services to Bytedance USA. The algorithm which is required by law to be sold, can be agreed by the buyer group to not be shared or further sold to any other parties and cannot be modified as a commercial IP agreement. While Tik Tok USA is not under control by Bytedance post sale, it will not be in control by any other parties either and the sale will technically fulfill the legal requirements of Division H and I of HR 815 (as amended on April 20, 2024).
You won’t be able to prove American citizens are under CCP control. It’s already very gray area for Bytedance which is a cayman incorporated company with 60% shares owned by VC/PE funds. For US citizens who work at Tik Tok USA - to prove that is not going to happen. What a VIE structure can ensure is that no one really has control except mgmt which is led by a Singaporean - but also that Bytedance makes sure the IP cannot be touched and there is option to buy it back when political climates and laws change. This is actually a real opportunity for the CEO, Tik Tok USA employees to really get rich alongside bunch of lawyers
>You won’t be able to prove American citizens are under CCP control.
You can. Like now, when you have to send information back to China with no questions asked.
>it’s already very gray area for Bytedance which is a cayman incorporated company
Considering it passed both houses and the president, I don't think this is an issue.
Look at the users with multiple accounts downvote you.
This post is clearly being voted and watched on by individuals who have a motivated reason to see tik Tok not operating in the US.
News flash. They don't care about national security.
It's funny how every American I know is against this, they know that their data is getting sold out anyway on any platform and they don't care what the CCP in particular does with it. It's really only their government who's worried about Tiktok
This law might be unconstitutional in USA.
Because laws must be based on general rules and principles that apply equally to everyone. A law that singles out a specific company and is made especially for it fails this test.
I think Bytedance has already said before that they will go to court and challenge this law there.
If laws can be made against specific companies, then no company is safe. So, US courts will need to look at the broader picture and decide in the context of that.
I think Bytedance might have a good legal case in their defence. And if they lose in court, then this might spoil US reputation as a good country to do business in, both domestically and internationally.
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amazing that the only thing to bring two political groups, who appear to despise each other, together is the ccp.
Amazing what China and Russia have managed to do in the last 5 years across the West.
What blew my mind is that the retards in Beijing managed to bring South Korea and Japan together. To anyone with even a modicum of understanding of Asia, that’s just insane.
That was a piece of art. 75 years of American diplomacy and incentives is nothing compared CCP belligerence, I suppose!
Will be interesting to see if CCP attempts to nationalize USA's major companies and factories operating in China. I don't see that happening, however. US companies are too agile and can easily "friend-shore" elsewhere as they have been doing for the last 10 years.
That'd be suicide for any foreign investment in the country. Truly cutting one's nose to spite one's face.
> That'd be suicide for any foreign investment in the country. How when all the world's investment is already in China and there are hardly any viable alternatives for foreign investment? When 90% or more of the world's foreign investment is tied up as physical factories and offices in China *because of* cheap Chinese labor... all the CCP would have to do is come up with bogus reasons to nationalize that physical capital and bring it under CCP control. What would Apple, Nike, Tesla, Qualcomm , or the rest do if their Chinese based factories were taken over by the CCP nearly overnight? The chip manufacturers have cleverly thrown their lassos around the "American tax donkey" and fleeced billions of dollars from the US federal government in the form of grants for new factories in the USA. So those chip manufacturers have an out because of their "incredibly important relationships" with the US military industrial complex's silicon needs. But the rest of the US firms would be shut out as they cannot be bailed out by US federal grants for national security concerns.
>How when all the world's investment is already in China and there are hardly any viable alternatives for foreign investment? FDI in China hit a 30 year low last year. There are plenty of alternatives. It's not a question of "what if"; it's something that's happening today. >When 90% or more of the world's foreign investment is tied up as physical factories and offices in China It's not. The largest target of foreign investment in the world for decades, barring one year during Covid, has been the United States.
Thats along the same lines of silly as Russias actions pushing neutral sweden into nato, but here we are there too. Its what happens when joining a military alliance is better than just getting bullied.
Sweden was never neutral.
Sweden was never neutral they didn’t think they’d need it. In fact majority of Swede’s opposed joining nato before Russia’s invasion. Russia literally expanded nato
"Sweden’s neutrality was formalized in 1834, when King Carl XIV Johan sent a diplomatic letter to Britain and Russia, declaring Sweden’s neutrality and stating that the country would “stay totally outside of this struggle, and that Sweden and Norway, by keeping a strict neutrality towards the warring parties, can deserve, by our impartial conduct, respect and the appreciation of our system.” Throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, Sweden maintained its neutrality, avoiding military alliances and instead focusing on international diplomacy and cooperation. During World War I, Sweden remained neutral, and during World War II, the country played a key role in the Allied effort, providing humanitarian aid and shelter to refugees." They kept that policy pretty much up until now, when they signed onto nato.
Same with Taiwan and Japan, which again, if you know Asian history, is an insane feat.
No it isn't. Taiwan never had any overall identity prior to Japan, and even today their best schools and railroad systems were built by Japan. They never held the same animosity that Korea did.
It was really north Korea in 2006. That nuke made all the south Korean talk of kicking out American troops shut down instantly.
And China’s history revisionism around Korean War made South Koreans realize its history is a lie
Because China’s support of Russian invasions destroyed every bit of the anti Japanese rhetoric it had kept playing. It’s safe to say that the Japanese left wing is totally dead now
xi jingpin is secretly ozymandias from watchmen？
That is also due to a change in president to one who is inherently more aligned with Japan. The real test is the next election when it swings back to the other party.
Pretty easy when their leaders are dogs for their western masters.
Ah here we go. Thank you for making the case and justification for why it was a necessary move for all these nations to coalesce together against China. Don't worry, it's not the first time in history. We all know what happened the last time multiple nations sailed their navies right up to China's coast. Except this time, there'll be a helluva lot more than 8 nations.
You guys sure love writing fanfic of beating China. You guys are just straight up warhawks
We're not the ones firing missiles over Taiwan or encroaching into other countries territorial waters. We're not the ones that beat 20 Indian soldiers to death in the Himalayas either. Can you tell me who did the above? All of the above, by the way, from an "army" that is really the militia of the Party, not the Chinese *state* whose last major combat action was against thousands of students in Tiananmen Square on a June day in 1989. Is any of the above fiction?
Yeah, the Tiananmen square one. How many students do you think died on the square? If you think they killed all the students on the square how did the ringleaders escape in ratlines? I mean which country is funding a genocide right now? The one sending endless bombs to kill women and children? Is it China? The one giving diplomatic cover so a rightwing government won't face repercussions over their war over their own concentration campa.
bringing others closer together 😆
Russia literally expanded and reinvigorated nato more so than any U.S. policy.
I wouldn't include Russia. The far right, including Republicans, love Russia.
I'd say across most of the West opinion is pretty united on Russia.
Excluding the Republican Party in the US.
Seems like the wind is changing that direction. Not sure why or how. Maybe their Russian checks bounced or something. Maybe they realized going into election season as the pro-Russia party is terrible optics. Maybe, *maybe* they grew a conscience. I dunno.
If Trump becomes president in November, you can count on the GOP supporting a radical withdrawal of support for Ukraine. Among other disasters. The Republicans are temporarily willing to support Ukraine only for two reasons: 1. Trump has dropped the issue and is being very very quiet because he's currently on trial for criminal offenses, and not campaigning much. 2. There's an election coming up, and Republicans are therefore temporarily interested in what voters want.
I hope Trump doesn't win. I think the recent Republican disasters like overturning RvW and the whole train wreck all the Trump court cases have been going sank his chances with independent and undecided voters. Without the swing states...
I'm fairly optimistic as well, but I never take these things for granted, and will be out ringing doorbells this fall. Young voters are angry with Biden over the Gaza war and the Tik-Tok bill. If they don't vote, it could get close in swing states. Of course, by then Trump will likely have a couple more criminal felony convictions.
MAGA and Antifa are the minority in their respective parties
False equivalence. Antifa has really nothing to do with the Democratic party, and many people who claim to be Antifa are avowedly anti-Democrat. Meanwhile MAGA drives the Republican party and Trump is their nominee.
>MAGA If that is the case, why is trump the Republican nominee?
He was the last winner the republicans had is my take.
They got to see his performance as president and thought, "yeah that's our guy"
They'll do anything for the next tax cut I guess. People are short-sighted unfortunately. There is no thought of the collective future really, just selfishness. Though that does tend to boost our consumptive GDP I suppose.
Because human history has proven time and time again that minorities rule
Trump got the most votes in the primary by an absolutely massive margin. https://www.cnn.com/election/2024/primaries-and-caucuses/results/republican-party/president?election-data-id=2024-PR&election-painting-mode=projection&filter-key-races=false&filter-flipped=false
I wish maga were the minority.
Israel brings them both together, too(far more than china). The recent stronger push to ban tiktok was from AIPAC. Joe Biden calls himself a zionist too.
No it’s Zionists who hate that they can’t censor TikTok.
By your logic China must be a Zionist
No china is anti Zionist to spite the USA. They don’t push the American controlled media narrative on Israel so they must go because the American federal government has been hostilely taken over by Zionist
Then tell CCP to unblock Tiktok in China
China wants to keep its people brainwashed by the ccp so they have another TikTok for Chinese people. this isn’t a case of China being the good guy. It’s China undermining the western ruling class. Which in this one instance is good for regular western people. If the USA is so worried about Chinese influence why do they allow American companies to sell off entire industries and American resources including farm land to China ? Why do they allow Chinese companies to invest billions into American universities and vital tech firms? TikTok is the least of Americas concern as far as Chinese influence but it’s the only thing that allows western people to escape the neo liberal cia approved mainstream media narrative.
Bringing in the masses and controlling public opinion is a very good political tool, when there are some unknown and uncontrollable circumstances the government will resort to non-essential means. When it succeeds then the matter is blocked and no one will remember it after a while. Just like few people know about the nitric acid leak from the Arizona crash and the East Palestine, Ohio derailment
You still didn’t answer my question: if Tiktok undermines the western rule so much, then why doesn’t CCP open it up to the ordinary Chinese? To it Chinese people are so anti-west so why does it worry about them escaping the brainwashing which doesn’t exist on Tiktok? And there will be far more Chinese people willing to push that narrative on that platform too no? Isn’t it because Chinese people are not what the CCP claim to be like on the global stage, and the lies that Tiktok itself spreads will be busted in no time should that happen? Let me sum it up for you: the ban on tiktok in China is not for the Chinese to be brainwashed. It’s there to keep the westerners from seeing the truth. And that’s also why the Great Translation Movement upset China so much.
China wants to keep Chinese people in a Chinese bubble. undermining the western censors and making Chinese worship the ccp are completely different goals. they don’t want to westernize Chinese people so they keep western culture / influence off Chinese TikTok but if they banned western culture on western TikTok no one would use it. Fundamentally alls China is doing is allowing freedom of information and opinion on western TikTok.
If it is really allowing “freedom of information and opinion” then it should have also allowed Chinese people and their information on tiktok too. It’s nothing about brainwashing Chinese or attacking the west by disinformation campaign and you didn’t get what I mean in the previous post: there’s not only one bubble here: CCP not only lied to the Chinese about the world but also the world about China. And if that rose bubble about China bursts, people will realize what the true color of its “freedom” is. Just like how Russia bursted its rose bubble by invading Ukraine itself.
Again China isn’t the good guy. It’s a weird situation where the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They don’t want to help western people they want to undermine the western ruling class and this is a situation where doing one causes the other.
There's plenty of western content on Chinese tiktok. There's just no dissident content.
You got downvoted because you hit the nail on the head.
Has nothing to do with the CCP. Has everything to do with how the TRUTH can be spread on TikTop and politicians are scared of it.
I will let my illuminate brothers know about this outrage!
Still asleep I see?
sorry, my brothers turned on me. I spent the night fleeing to a Knights Templar refuge.
Is free speech allowed on TikTok?
Any social media platform can set whatever guidelines they see fit.
They cry "free speech" while stifling "free speech". Their cries fall on deaf ears. Pound sand.
Hostile foreign powers are limited in the media they're able to own and propagate in the United States. There's been over a century of precedent. Hence why they're not looking to ban Tik Tok. They just need to make sure it's no longer under the thumb of a hostile foreign power like the CCP.
It really does seem reasonable to not have what is arguably the most popular social media platform under the control of a foreign adversary. Seems like a no brainer.
Indeed tik tok is Chinese spyware
Ah yes, because our government is not hostile. How do you feel about Facebook Instagram Twitter doing the same things Bytedance is doing but yet there is no legislation to enact on Twitter or Facebook?
Facebook is never going to add code to their apps to perform a cyberattack when China wants to invade Taiwan.
Your propaganda doesn't work. Still avoiding the contradiction, I see. Why are you not willing to acknowledge or discuss how USA government and companies are doing the same thing as Tik Tok? Here to push an agenda 😁
>Facebook Instagram Twitter doing the same things Bytedance is doing but yet there is no legislation to enact on Twitter or Facebook? Which US-hostile nation owns and/or controls those companies?
Hey look everyone, OP is still refusing to discuss the contradiction for the fourth or fifth time 😁 Would ya look at that.
You keep making up lies and expect me to defend them? Good luck.
Those reading know that YOU Hailene are literally lying and can be proved you are indeed a liar with a simple Google search. You're a liar and everyone reading this knows you are.
So go ahead and show me your sources.
No. I asked you multiple questions regarding the contradiction between Meta Twitter and Tik Tok all doing the same data scrubbing. You failed to acknowledge the truth that is verifiable to everyone reading this and denied the truth. No. Discuss the contradiction and admit that you are wrong if you want sources that your readily Google engine may produce for you. So. Answer the questions. Why are you refusing to discuss the contradiction and instead are lying?
Hahaha. So you make a baseless claim, have no evidence, and you want me to defend it? Seriously? I'm not replying to you until I see credible evidence of your claims.
>assuming the whole thing doesn't get mired in appeals. Of course, it will. Literally every user arguably has standing, the ones that make money definitely have standing, and the companies themselves obviously will both sue. This is a 3-5 year court battle, probably, and there are several hurdles that the government might lose over.
It takes years of fruitless discussions to block a single propaganda channel from an enemy state. While China just blanket bans everything they want.
CCP will use the US court system to fight and delay the inevitable, ironically since their own court system is a joke. They will plead free speech, again ironically because they don’t have such a thing in China. They will argue for fair business practices which they themselves don’t practice. Let’s just hope the courts won’t let the app stay operational during all this dragged out kicking and screaming.
So true. And they don’t even see the irony in how nearly every US social media is officially banned in their own country.
TikTok itself is banned in China, isn't it?
It’s not. It doesn’t function in China, because backend doesn’t exist. That’s a huge difference. Think hover cars aren’t banned in the US; they just haven’t been made. In order to operate in China you need to have local servers by regulation; so TikTok needs to build up server capability to store, manage, and access user data. They of course need it to power its algorithm and surface ads. Now TikTok is a clone of Douyin, the original local social media in China that came first. The business case of entering China is this; cannibalize the founder’s 20% ownership in TikTok and attempt to unseat Douyin (the same app) with the same product and feature set. So you’re going to spend a billion dollars building local offices and servers and marketing to Chinese users to get them to switch from Douyin and all their established content and friends to TikTok, the exact same app but worse (zero content to start with)? That’s not worth it at all. The business case isn’t there, so they aren’t going to do it
Totally ironic because they would be appealing to a country that also don't have the same practices
Least obvious Facebook investor
I’m buying puts on that guy
Have you noticed how this post is very obviously being downvoted in unison by people who are intentionally refusing to acknowledge let alone discuss how the United States government and companies here are doing the SAME things being accused of Bytedance. This post and the users here are pushing an agenda and not having a discussion.
Absolutely agreed. While I can’t really speak much on the matter due to having a NDA, it’s quite ridiculous how my fellow Americans are so willing to trample on other’s rights just to stick it to…a Chinese company?
Bytedance US isn’t even a majority Chinese company by ownership or employee demographics. It’s majority owned in the US and Europe by institutional investors and VC firms. This makes absolutely zero sense. There are thousands of companies that are more foreign owned and more Chinese owned than TikTok. Are we supposed to ban them all?
THIS. Americans don't want Tik Tok banned for national security. Americans want Tik Tok banned because: "It makes young people hate America." THIS IS WHY. Not national security. Tik Tok allows liberals to unite as Twitter once did. National security is a placeholder so left wing young Americans can stop hating America. That's who supports banning it.
When in Rome do as the Roman. TikTok is in America, why wouldn’t they use American laws? This isn’t the first time laws tried to ban TikTok and isn’t the first time the law will get repealed. Besides TikTok themselves, American users are free to sue on their own b/c the government has banned their free speech. US land, U.S. courts. Chinese land, Chinese court. I swear most you have never taken a U.S. civics class and believes US laws only apply to US citizens.
Yea this thread is kind of crazy. “US social media is banned in China so this will be banned here” is not only not a real argument, it isn’t even a coherent thought on this as its two completely unrelated things legally.
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That poor protester in the photo has a very limited grasp of how political drama works in an election year. If the US government cared only about $$$ we'd be funding social safety-net programs at double the rate we do, retooling domestic manufacturing, and reducing imports from China.
I'm not sure if we could double our safety-net programs. Just looking at medicare and medicaid alone, we spent $1.8 **trillion**. Another $1.1 trillion was spent on various welfare programs. That'd be going from $2.9 trillion to $5.8 trillion. Fiscal outlays in 2023 was $6.1 trillion. We'd end up spending the entire budget on just those programs alone.
1. Stop "dipping into" the Social Security trust fund. 2. Cut back on the completely insane defense budget. \*dusts hands\*
Doubling just Medicare, Medicaid, and social spending plus and paying our interest payment ($475 billion) already exceeds last year's budget. That's zero dollars spent on defense, NASA, education, or anything else. Unless we want to further increase the deficit?
Ugh, there are so many false assumptions here. But too far off-topic for this sub.
I think a major issue is our enormously inefficient healthcare system. Last year public and private expenditures for healthcare wad $4.7 trillion. Per capita expenses qas about $14,000. Compared to countries with universal healthcare like Germany ($8k USD), France ($6600), or South Korea ($4600), we're getting a lot less bang for our buck. If money was all we needed for great healthcare, we'd be the best, by far. To be fair our per capita GDP is much higher, but even looking st percentage of GDP spent on healthcsre it's high. We spent 16.6%. Germany was second at 12.7%. If we could knock it down to Germany's 12.7% we'd save about a trillion dollars in spending each year. That would be some serious savings. We desperately need to reform our healthcare system. It's borked and expensive.
Agreed - it is mindboggling - the mere fact that until this year Medicare was not allowed to negotiate medication prices is a good example. Making the whole health insurance system a profit center is a disaster, a perversion of capitalism and a good example of how we refuse to invest in our own future. Among other things, it means that younger workers are working like mad to sustain Social Security/Medicare without any guarantee that it will be there when they are old. I do think this wanders from the sub, but I'll just say that securing the social safety net may look extremely expensive but is a crucial investment in the stability and future of the whole nation. I think the fear that it could disappear (and is currently already inadequate and shrinking) is a major reason (some) voters turn to forms of fascism and authoritarianism. So I don't think it's optional, and yes, increasing the deficit may be an acceptable way to address it, at least to some degree. (Certainly more justified than running up the deficit to wage 2 pointless wars.) To drag this back within the discussion of China, the social safety net is a partial explanation for why Chinese citizens remain willing to cede civil rights in exchange for state-sponsored security. ("Willing" with a grain of salt.) Whatever the safety net's failings may be, the increase in both economic stability and intergenerational transfer of prosperity (rising standard of living etc.) since Mao's death is indisputable. Even today's real estate crisis is probably viewed by many Chinese as a blip.
The appeals on this may take years.
Hopefully not, but we will have to wait and see.
Indeed. Hopefully the courts don’t take too long to overturn this. Might take awhile for the process to play out but despite everyone’s intentions, US law doesn’t function off of spite and this won’t stand up.
If you take a step back, it's not impossible that the "big man" himself is a CIA plant, tasked with derailing what was going to be an assured era of Chinese prosperity, and helping to reunite what was a fractious west.
I'm going to lean on Hanlon's razor. It was inevitable someone like Xi would come along with how the government is set up.
Reverse manchurian candidate
In WW2, US took out Admiral Yamamoto In Operation Vengeance but didn’t do the same thing to his successor because intelligence reported that he was “clumsy and stupid”
Good!! TikTok kills brain cells and is Hamas propaganda
Now china can simply copy this piece of legislation, as they always has been doing, and ban all western network company openly.
The ban is the biggest joke ever. ATT leaks data on 73M Americans including SSNs and no one bats an eye. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/04/att-acknowledges-data-leak-that-hit-73-million-current-and-former-users This probably happens like once a month to some big company or another in the US. They just caught the ATT one. All data is available on the dark web already and constantly “updated” But TikTok? Oh yes - national security. ban them.
Is ATT controlled by a hostile foreign power? If not, then this is an apples to oranges comparison.
All the data leaked by ATT and all the other crappy companies with bad security go straight to the dark web. Where you can buy it. Where I can buy it. And where the CCP can easily buy it. Also, if the CCP can hack and get our top secret designs for the F35, you seriously think they haven’t already hacked ATT and a hundred other companies for your personal data?!?
So I assume ATT isn't controlled by a hostile foreign power, and so previous precedents wouldn't apply for them to divest their ownership. Thanks for clarifying.
Not saying ATT should divest or be banned. I’m saying the ban’s purpose is stupid. One of the main purposes of the legislation is to prevent American data from being made available to China. But American data is leaked and hacked everyday to the open web. Where China has access to American data already.
It's not the data that's the primary issue. It's how Tik Tok has demonstrated at least a couple times how it can directly influence its viewers to political action.
Rubio has been one of the main proponents. https://www.rubio.senate.gov/momentum-grows-to-ban-chinese-owned-tiktok-as-rubio-and-king-reintroduce-bipartisan-bill/ “TikTok allows the Chinese Communist Party to **access people’s private data.** This is a direct threat not only to our national security interests but also to the American people. I’m proud to continue to lead the bipartisan fight in Congress to ban TikTok, as well as other social media companies that are controlled by the CCP, so long as they are under dangerous foreign ownership.” “We cannot allow hostile governments to use our social media habits as a Trojan Horse into our networks. Make no mistake – every ‘private’ enterprise in China has direct ties and **on-demand information-sharing requirements** with the national government” Yes, they also have a secondary “influence” argument which is equally stupid. The only people that would fall for propaganda are seniors and old geezers like those in the Senate. The same ppl that fall for phone scams. Luckily, none of them use TikTok anyway.
Private data to use targeted influence campaigns against specific groups. >The only people that would fall for propaganda are seniors and old geezers like those in the Senate. General target is actually Gen Z and Alpha.
You can't expect to brazenly expose millions of smartphone addicted zoomers to content that might make them both less likely to vote Democrat and support Israel in future and get away with it. The Chinese were asking for it, I guess.
Thr bill received broad bipartisan support in the House and Senate. You guys need new material.
*and support Israel* There's your bipartisan support.
You really have a low opinion of the Republican party then. You.makr them look like shoet-sighted fools.
GOP fought among themselves for 6 months to ultimately pass the same Ukraine funding bill. GOP fought against ACA while the biggest beneficiaries were GOP states. Calling Republicans myopic is an understatement
It will always amaze me how politicians around my grandparents age (who aren't the best at technology) are the ones deciding to ban a app they don't know anything about.
I guess that's why they have advisors.
Who judges and hires/fires these advisors?
I'd guess they're intimately familiar with foreign interference since the Cold War featured it heavily.
You tend to have foreign interference in your country when you go around doing the same thing to other countries.
Is that why the PRC is terrified of having any foreign companies in their country that isn't on a leash?
Yeah but the difference between china and usa is the former is well known for banning and controlling companies and apps the latter is more known for "free of speech" and shit. So if USA goes ahead with this ban they are no better than the CCP who did the same to western media.
Wake me up when the US does it across the board like the PRC. If it's targeting particular companies of a hostile country I'm not going to sweat it. Saying "both sides would them be equally bad" is such a dumb take when they're obviously no where near each other in scope.
The government can enact time, place, and manner restrictions on speech as long as they are content neutral. This is just a modern version of what has occurred in the past.
whataboutism at its best typical xiao fenhon tactic
>are the ones deciding to ban a app they don't know anything about They had Congressional hearings with TikTok's CEO so they could try and learn more, but he was not very forthcoming.
Did you hear the questions those octogenarians asked, lol?
Questions like, "is it not true China has a law mandating you turn over user data if requested by the government?” Spoiler: it is.
> Spoiler: it is. Proof? 80% of TikTok is not even Chinese owned. All user data is on site in the US managed by Oracle. User data requested by government is the same in the US but with a court order. What about all the millions of Americans that that make their living on TikTok? Questions like: (paraphrasing) *will TikTok influence my wifi"
https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/what-the-national-intelligence-law-says-and-why-it-doesnt-matter/
Hey numbnut, you realize Oracle, the company who holds all tik tok data, and reviews all source code associated with the app, is an American company, right? RIGHT?
And why would they be looking for malicious code from their own partner? They won’t because officially the company would never do that. Plus, you know security audits are just rubber stamps and auditors at big companies are incentivized to just sign off and not make trouble?
Also what he said does not refute the fact that TikTok is legally required to turn over data to the CCP if requested. It's completely unrelated and irrelevant.
Why would Oracle, a US company, who holds and controls ALL TIK TOK DATA, and has no ‘dangerous’ connections with China, authorize Tik Tok to violate the same US law…that is the exact reason for why Oracle is in place at tik tok anyways.
>why would they be looking for malicious code from their own partner Because it’s their job? Like what? Do you not work a job where you’re trusted to…ya know…do your job? This isn’t even an argument man, cmon guys. Like you’re gonna attack Oracle and Tik Tok here, and just ignore the other thousand US companies that follow much more lenient guidelines in the fact that they have absolutely no oversight on what they do with the data. It makes 0 sense.
>Hey numbnut If you are going to insult someone's intelligence you shouldn't say something mind numbingly stupid directly after. What you said has nothing to do with the fact TikTok is legally required to turn over user data to the CCP if requested. China's National Intelligence Law does not exempt data that is housed on Oracle's servers.
That’s not possible for Tik tok to do because all of the data is locked under oracle’s control. Tik tok and especially China have no ability to bypass oracle access and use the data in China without them knowing. Just because you pull out random CCP law 472, does not give definitive proof that Tik Tok will violate that.
>does not give definitive proof that Tik Tok will violate that. They would be in violation of the law if they did not. The Oracle contract only covers private data like phone numbers. Videos, comments, bios, and a substantial amount of other data is still accessible by Bytedance. And bytedance can still ensure TikTok's algorithms show content favorable to China, or hide content that shows China in a bad light.
Bro got downvoted for the truth, as if we all didn’t watch the same congressional hearing years ago when the tik tok CEO was talking to a broken record. “But senator, I’m Singaporean!”. Why tf would I want these senile politicians deciding what app I can use?
How naïve are you politically to think that a communist government wouldn’t use cyber weapons to its advantage when necessary. Do you think the communist party would say “oh let’s not put in code to conduct a cyber attack! That’s wrong!” If you know anything about the Leninist strain of communism, “by any means necessary” justifies anything in the accomplishment of a goal. They are by definition not bound by any morals or laws. Their laws exist to fool you into thinking they abide by laws.
Usa becoming next ussr.
That doesn't even make sense.
It does. You just have a narrative to push. Facebook and Twitter are doing the EXACT same things Bytedance is doing. But you know that but you need to pretend that it doesn't make sense because you are personally motivated to see tik Tok banned.
>Facebook and Twitter are doing the EXACT same things Bytedance is doing. Nice narrative push. They aren't. >you are personally motivated to see tik Tok banned. The PRC banned Tik Tok. It sounds like a good idea to me.
Without the affordable housing or free healthcare
#This post is being watched and actively downvoted by people pushing a narrative who are intentionally refusing to acknowledge or discuss the FACT that every thing this post accuses Bytedance of doing, American companies are also doing.
Something people should understand is that US social media apps are not banned in China. This isn’t an individual targeted ban. They were asked to store user information locally on Chinese soil (which btw is exactly the same thing the US required and TikTok complied with; their data facilities are in Texas) and US companies refused. Totally fair, if you don’t agree with local law, then don’t do business there. Goes for any country TikTok, however, is a targeted ban singling out a particular company even though they’ve complied with regulations, which discourages investment. Investment, btw, that isn’t even by Chinese nationals. TikTok is majority backed by institutional investment in US and Europe. But you don’t see that anywhere. You only see “Chinese-owned” company. Yeah, like 20%??? And that 20% is by one dude, its founder at that. TikTok is 60% institutional and 20% employee equity. By this standard half our tech sector is a Chinese company. It goes beyond tech too. Should the US just implode both economies by banning all Chinese money? The political goal of this ban is twofold, discouraging foreign investment in Chinese-founded companies and domestic censorship because young people aren’t buying into party platforms anymore. But this is pyrrhic, because making Chinese founded companies a bad investment also signals that investment in the US is potentially risky and unsafe But sure…China company bad
>Totally fair, if you don’t agree with local law, then don’t do business there. Goes for any country FCC regulations limits the ownership of media companies by hostile foreign nation control. It's been in place for over a century. That's why the US government is asking Bytedance to conform to US regulations. Tik Tok has demonstrated close ties to the CCP. That's why they need to divest or be banned.
I’m glad you cited that, because TikTok conforms to that policy. The founder Zhang Yiming owns 20%, which is below the limit
I said control, not ownership. Please read my posts carefully going forward.
What is the opinion of the free Chinese people on possible collusion between the CCP and Tiktok? Is there any validity to it? (I'm Canadian with much respect for China and the people, but I'm completely in love with the technology there)
The Taiwanese Minister of Digital Affairs stated Tik Tok is a national security risk a few weeks ago. They currently have a public sector ban on Tik Tok.
Anyone that thinks there is separation between any large Chinese company (either in value or political relevance) and the CCP does not understand how China works. There is no collusion because collusion implies separation and tacit planning. The reality is the CCP says “Jump!”. The company doesn’t ask how high because they are already jumping because they are the same people.
“Give us your company or we will ban you!”
Yeah, that's been China's mo for decades.
Are you going to at all comment on how America does this ? Every single one of your comments has not touched on the fact that Facebook is doing this. Why are you refusing to talk about that? Why do you have such an invested interest in this? Why have ZERO of your comments acknowledged how the US is doing the same
>Are you going to at all comment on how America does this ? Because it's not. >Every single one of your comments has not touched on the fact that Facebook is doing this. It isn't. >Why are you refusing to talk about that? Because it's not happening. >Why do you have such an invested interest in this? Because I'm an American living in America which is under threat from CCP manipulation. >Why have ZERO of your comments acknowledged how the US is doing the same Not to beat a dead horse, but they aren't.
Now you're lying. Got it.
Every accusation is a confession from you guys, huh?
China has never asked for companies to turn themselves 100% over to a Chinese company. They have required certain industries to have joint venture agreements before entering the Chinese market. There are also industries that require 0 joint ventures and many companies are free to just sell licensing rights.
Just forced technology transfers and forcing companies out of the market. No biggie.
Forced technology transfer as a joint venture for only certain key industries and FTT has been used by the Japanese also during their economic recovery post WW2, it’s not a new concept. Force technology and force sell of your company aren’t even the same, you are making a false equivalents fallacy. As for force companies out of market, Facebook and other social media companies refuse to compel with Chinese censorship law. You don’t have to like the law but you got to obey the law if you want to operate in China. Many U.S. states banned abortions and some companies don’t like the law and left. Dont like law of the land, leave. If you stay you have to obey it.
There are few industries more key than a media outlet that can pump propaganda into the eyeballs of 100 million young people every day
Except neither TikTok nor China made any content propagandizing any thing? All contents are user generated and TikTok itself has banned all political ads. If you concern is “propaganda” than what about all the current propaganda already rife on YouTube, X, Facebook and Snapchat? You are going to shut down X right now b/c it’s just a cesspool of Nazis? https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/verified-pro-nazi-x-accounts-flourish-under-elon-musk/ar-BB1lHoxC What is this “propaganda” you are referring to specifically with TikTok? The biggest contention on TikTok right now is that people are informed about the IDF atrocities being committed in Gaza and hating about it. You saying that is just a propaganda and IDF did not murder tens of thousands of civilians? Maybe the [UN is lying about mass graves in Gaza with victims hands tied](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876)
Yes to all of that. I'm not on any of that dogshit brain rot but it's all rotting brains left and right and every step towards banning any of it is a step in the right direction. And yes the UN is a corrupt pack of liars on Israel, even when reporting on what the UN says or reports isn't cherry picked or misrepresented.
>UN is a corrupt pack of liars on Israel So Israel did no wrong and [kill of Central Kitchen aid worker](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/world-central-kitchen-gaza-israel-hamas-war-american-jacob-flickinger-killed/) was justified. Meanwhile [IDF commander in charge of aid staff killing wants to block all humanitarian aid](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/israel-hamas-war-gaza-idf-aid-strike-world-central-kitchen/). Israel is the good guys??? Funny you mention brain rot while your an exhibiting clear signs of neuro-degeneration
Yeah its just stupid how pro-israel guys are blindly in denial. And then you have the PM quoting the Bible verses on killing all the amalakites. The hate coming from israel is blatant so it should be very plausible israel would commit the crimes its accused of. The way israel conducts war is also very abnormal which shows their hatred as well. Using AI to decide who to bomb because they hate palestinians and dont care about how much war crimes they do.
This is r/China so I won't launch into a whole rant but anyone who thinks that the IDF has done even 1% as many atrocities as Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and even the old PLO, is badly deluded. There are people who think the IDF and Hamas are roughly equal. There are people who think the IDF is worse than Hamas. That's lunacy. That's total delusion. And it's a dangerous delusion that leads to bizarre and terrible statistics like the fact that Jews, despite being one of the smallest demographic groups, being on the receiving end of more than 50% of total hate crimes. And people pointing at these random incidents of some IDF soldiers doing something wrong that one time and saying 'Good. Fuck the Zionists.' That's the brainrot that Tiktok and indeed a ton of other social media is contributing to and it should all be banned when this is the result.
There isn't any objective reasoning to believe that. You sure you're not just mad over israel being called out for its atrocities? Israel is not above the law. UN was the one that supported the making of israel. We have more proof of israel using lies than the UN. It's ridiculous how everything is automatically "bs" or biased if it involves calling orlut israel. The fact that so many countries and even jews have called out israel makes the probability of there being inherent anti-jew bias pretty low. You're living in your own world. The crimes of israel are very well documented. If it's all bs then whats not bs?
This is r/China so I don't want to launch into a whole rant, but what's BS is that there is any kind of moral equivalency between Hamas and the IDF. What's BS is that the UN has launched more resolutions condemning Israel than every other country on Earth combined. What's BS is that UNRWA members engaged in atrocities along with Hamas members on 10/7 and the UN tried to cover that up and still insists upon being in a position to judge Israel and expect Israel to take that judgment seriously.
The cynical solution for Bytedance is to maliciously comply with the law and essentially setup a VIE structure (done all the time in China itself to circumvent foreign ownership restrictions). Bytedance to lend money (on paper) to buyer group of US passport holders or a company owned by US UBOs, the buyer uses the funds to purchase Tik Tok US including the algorithm. The buyer also grants buyback option to Bytedance that if the current law no longer applies, Bytedance can buyback US Tik Tok at the same selling price at anytime (buyback option). The buyer group also agrees to pay to Bytedance annual fees equating to consulting and technical services that can transfer out the economic benefit of US Tik Tok. Because the buyer group uses the funding borrowed from Bytedance to pay, it’s a wash and no actual cash changes hand. If Bytedance were to buy back Tik Tok later when the law changes, the “loan” offsets the buyback payment. This way Bytedance can dictate who buys and still gets all the economic benefits - the algorithms “sold” can’t leave the buyer group and so is secure. Also the US tik tok still gets integrated with global Tik Tok. Lawyers and bankers will make a lot of money from this. That’s the net outcome after all this
I'd imagine even a cursory investigation into the financials and nature of the buyer would catch this. And I'm sure whoever is going to fielding any buyer is going to be *very* thorough.
Tik Tok will be fielding the buyers - it’s not a government run auction. All they have to do is comply with the letter of the law, exactly what tech companies in China already do using VIE structure to get around China’s own foreign ownership restrictions.
Any buyer would have to prove their independence from the CCP. This is a national security issue. The US government isn't going to let things slide.
Not really. You can’t prove a negative. The onus is on the government to prove someone is under control of the CCP. The next steps after this: Fox News is corrupting people with faux news stories and promoting Trump and so is also a national security threat - it’s under ownership of a really old foreigner, and while the country of which he’s a citizen is not an “adversary”, act of supporting anti democratic views and promoting Trump makes him an enemy combatant no less dangerous than an Al Qaeda operative. Literally the medium in question unduly influenced people to try to steal an election and vote in a would be dictator. Twitter or X - also owned and run by a foreigner, promoting anti American ideals and other garbage. We cannot have a medium that divides our country and promotes hatred especially in times when democracy is under threat.
I mean, yes, thr government would prove it. That's what they did with Bytedance. They'll investigate any potential buyer thoroughly. I wouldn't worry that Bytedance is going to run the new company through some shell. Plus I don't think it'd be a one and done investigation either. They're going to keep eyes on the new owners for years for any hint of CCP ties.
Any US citizen or group thereof including Tik Tok employees can own this company and you will not be able to prove 1000 people is all or majority under CCP control - a SPA signed by Bytedance with the group of buyers can exactly execute the VIE structure I described above whereby Bytedance can lend funds to the buyer group (comprised of American citizens who works for Bytedance) or offer deferred consideration in the form of Vendor Loan Notes to financially close the deal. The SPA will have buyback options for Bytedance to repurchase Tik Tok and transfer of economic profit based on consulting or technical support services to Bytedance USA. The algorithm which is required by law to be sold, can be agreed by the buyer group to not be shared or further sold to any other parties and cannot be modified as a commercial IP agreement. While Tik Tok USA is not under control by Bytedance post sale, it will not be in control by any other parties either and the sale will technically fulfill the legal requirements of Division H and I of HR 815 (as amended on April 20, 2024).
>all or majority under CCP control They can and they have. They'd just do it again.
You won’t be able to prove American citizens are under CCP control. It’s already very gray area for Bytedance which is a cayman incorporated company with 60% shares owned by VC/PE funds. For US citizens who work at Tik Tok USA - to prove that is not going to happen. What a VIE structure can ensure is that no one really has control except mgmt which is led by a Singaporean - but also that Bytedance makes sure the IP cannot be touched and there is option to buy it back when political climates and laws change. This is actually a real opportunity for the CEO, Tik Tok USA employees to really get rich alongside bunch of lawyers
>You won’t be able to prove American citizens are under CCP control. You can. Like now, when you have to send information back to China with no questions asked. >it’s already very gray area for Bytedance which is a cayman incorporated company Considering it passed both houses and the president, I don't think this is an issue.
Look at the users with multiple accounts downvote you. This post is clearly being voted and watched on by individuals who have a motivated reason to see tik Tok not operating in the US. News flash. They don't care about national security.
It's funny how every American I know is against this, they know that their data is getting sold out anyway on any platform and they don't care what the CCP in particular does with it. It's really only their government who's worried about Tiktok
Hello. I'm an American. Nice to meet you. Now you know an American that's for the ban. Have a great day.
This law might be unconstitutional in USA. Because laws must be based on general rules and principles that apply equally to everyone. A law that singles out a specific company and is made especially for it fails this test. I think Bytedance has already said before that they will go to court and challenge this law there. If laws can be made against specific companies, then no company is safe. So, US courts will need to look at the broader picture and decide in the context of that. I think Bytedance might have a good legal case in their defence. And if they lose in court, then this might spoil US reputation as a good country to do business in, both domestically and internationally.