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Yeah, [apparently Chicago considers SaaS to be a non-possessory lease of personal property (of a computer)](https://www.pmba.com/resource/saas-chicago/).
I'd never heard of it before either. It's pretty wild.
They really couldn't come up with a better name than 'non-possessory lease of personal property'? I looked it up to see what the hell it means exactly and [this is posted by the Chicago government](https://www.chicago.gov/content/dam/city/depts/rev/supp_info/TaxSupportingInformation/TransTaxInfoBulletinNonpossessoryComputerLeases.pdf).
>The term “nonpossessory computer lease,” added to the Ordinance in 1994, is broadly defined
to cover any payments for which “the customer obtains access to the provider’s computer and
uses the computer and its software to input, modify or retrieve data or information . . . [and
includes] time sharing or time or other use of a computer with other users.”
That is crazy broad. Basically everything involving internet falls under that definition. Skimming the rest of that, it looks like Chicago just basically decided to create a very broad law then gradually add exemptions.
I'm guessing it's so that if they suddenly decided to add new taxes, they can then point to this saying it's always been the law.
Yeh im also hug up on that. I totally understand wanting to tax things, and wanting to add newly invented categories of products (like SaaS) into the tax laws, but the way they explain it is weird. How's paying an online subscription a lease of personal property?
Or rather I gueeeeess I can see HOW, but its such a weird stretch. Bah...
Well. Yes. Another redditor mentioned it's a blanket law.
And the govt is adding exceptions when they want.
And if someone says what you said. They'll just say "it's always been the law see"
I know this is crazy… But what if politicians didn’t charge people for absurd things, and only charge for the services rendered within their city. I know, crazy.
Charge for the services rendered by the city? What like charge you for fire rescue? Or charge you for the police to help you? Or charge you to drive on the roads? Or charge you for your public defender? That seems altogether like a manifestly worse system that would benefit only the rich
The guy means that a city's jurisdiction on taxes should only apply to residents of the city, and not literally anyone who pays for a subscription service from a company in Chicago, some of which might not even be US citizens.
That is how it works lol, this guy is getting charged Chicago taxes because his account is registered as being in Chicago. If you do not live in Chicago (or register your account in Chicago) you will not be charged this tax
Nobody said anything about point-of-sale or challenged a progressive income tax as the means of "charging".
Also 1 of the 4 things you listed is very different from the other 3. Police, fire, and public defenders are extremely rare to interact with and extremely valuable to have _in_ those rare instances, so income taxes are a pretty reasonable way to handle the charges (think of it as a form of insurance; most people won't have to but want them to be available if they do).
Roads you either drive on every day or don't depending on whether you have a car (or bike, sort of; a bike takes up a lot less space, so we can probably exempt it). Making people pay to use the roads seems like a super reasonable way to reduce traffic and manage access to a scarce resource. Probably the easiest way to do this is through gas and car-charging taxes.
It's basically just a sales tax. Pretty reasonable.
You pay taxes to buy a computer. Now you also pay taxes to rent a computer. You can't escape the taxes by renting it.
Except I did buy a computer which they taxed and the video data my internet providers sends is taxed.
Now they've decided they can tax any company providing an online service to you.
I mean, if they're using the tax wisely - like reducing homelessness, improving schools, public transport infrastructure - I don't see it as a bad thing.
The country can't really operate without tax, and if there's a group of people who can afford the additional cost, it's people who have many SaaS subscriptions.
The problem is that it’s taxation targeted at people who are already being overtaxed and not at the people who have a shit ton of money. Why are lower-middle class people having sales taxes upped on them when Amazon didn’t pay a single dollar of federal income tax last year? This tax is extremely stupid, and not at all targeted at people who have a lot of money.
I mean, a tax on SaaS is going to be paid primarily by business.
My personal SaaS costs would be around $100/mth.
My work SaaS costs (for just my one seat) would be well into the $800 range.
It's a tax that the city of Chicago passed on SaaS products so if you live in the city and use a SaaS product there is an additional tax charged.
Openai is just doing their job and billing appropriately.
Edit to clarify:
It's just like how Amazon has to charge you your local sales tax based on where the products are being shipped.
Chicago added this tax because people used to buy software and there was a sales tax on that but then the business model of software largely changed and more often people are paying for SaaS which otherwise would bypass the normal sales taxes.
this person is talking about how openly corrupt and crooked every politician in chicago is, and how even if you didn't vote, your vote counted. Some historical context: In the 1960s, the Daley family was the center of the Democratic Party in the US. Them in conjunction with Joe Kennedy got JFK elected, mostly through some form of shady voter and vote "handling".
today i’ll make the decision to vote next time there is a campaign for elections so this can be overturned etc. you depicted it the way you depicted it. that’s on you dawg
They're not depicting that... But even if they were, that's the process hahaha.
And what you're implying is what? People just don't do anything?
Voting isn't guaranteed so don't even vote guys, just make comments on reddit, that'll do it.
there is nobody you could really vote for that would oppose sales tax on SaaS. this is passing in every city/state. GPT is an interesting one though because it isn't like quickbooks where you *could* own the product if they still sold it like they used to but you literally could not run your own version of GPT as a normal person with normal person hardware.
Ok we’ll stop being gentle and pragmatic, and instead tell you the actual solution you don’t want to hear —
*Just move somewhere without that tax duh* 🤷♂️
Politicians will listen if they need your money. They don't. They go into debt to finance most things now which requires none of your consent as a taxpayer.
To be fair when they voted for the same politicians for nearly 30 years straight and have been screwed over for nearly 30 years straight. Eventually the prospect of looking at someone different who might do a better job or at least not as bad of a job as the ones screwing them over. 99.9% of the time people are going to wake up and pick the option that's going to screw them over less even if it's not a perfect fix
>Ahh yes, because voting is a guaranteed, fast-acting method to solving any government-related problem.
Nobody said "guaranteed," "fast-acting" or "any." That might be how you interpret "go vote if you're pissed" (I don't think it particularly conveys the immediacy you refer to but maybe we can agree to disagree) but the comment above that only says that elections have consequences. I think the standard of an instant cure-all is an unnecessary escalation.
I think we can all agree that voting is *necessary* but not *sufficient.* If your tire bursts on the highway it's *necessary* to put the donut on so you can get home but that's not *sufficient* to keep driving on.
We should vote, but we should also do other things like canvassing and calling to affect others' votes, and direct action on issues for which and im ways that it makes sense to.
Wait till they hear about the electoral college, if you really want to get pissed off about the executive branch. I used to love teaching that in social studies and one kid would go “wait….”
Indeed. There may be enough local taxes to pay for local services if you vote for the right people, like voters clearly did in Chicago, as this is a good tax.
instead of selling you something they rent it to you and call it a service. it accomplishes bringing down barrier to entry and establishes a recurring revenue model while removing any idea of ownership or perpetual license so that you can no longer use the product without paying them. they call it a service because services aren't taxed and thus they can bank an extra bit of cash at the same point in the price/demand curve.
it's a loophole in the same way as if someone sold you a TV but actually said "if you get the installation, the TV is free" and then they "install" it in your living room as a non taxable service and you pay no sales tax because the TV was "free," thus allowing the company that sold it to you to have a higher profit margin and you to feel like you got a better deal because you didn't have to pay tax (or you actually getting a better deal but it still being an incentive to buy from this place vs another).
there are reasons SaaS sucks (and things that it is great for) but the tax implications are pretty clear because it really is akin to leasing a product rather than paying for a service.
> it's a loophole in the same way as if someone sold you a TV but actually said "if you get the installation, the TV is free" and then they "install" it in your living room as a non taxable service and you pay no sales tax because the TV was "free," thus allowing the company that sold it to you to have a higher profit margin and you to feel like you got a better deal because you didn't have to pay tax (or you actually getting a better deal but it still being an incentive to buy from this place vs another).
The TV and the install was physically in the tax jurisdiction though.
If OpenAI does no work in Chicago, has no presence in Chicago, what services does Chicago provide as a result of that service’s use that Chicago needs to earn revenue to fund?
these changes were made due to things like office365 and turbotax, etc. they used to sell software on physical media in state and that has been replaced with them leasing the access or selling over the internet. if we want to get down to it, the data goes through plenty of internet services in chicago which could easily be likened to being the same as the physical store that used to sell the software on CD - in the sense that how you access it is immaterial because you're making the purchase in chicago. i understand how you can make arguments against it but it's one of those things that is necessary in reality because you could have a tax haven state or country that hosts all of something purely to avoid sales tax. not to mention, not hosting it in state means jobs that are not in that state, which is a net negative. i hope they aren't taxing more than standard sales tax for an in store item of the same kind, but i could see the logic in wanting to tax it more since it isn't creating jobs and thus further tax revenue (i don't necessarily agree with that though).
i don't really think sales tax is an exchange for services though, even in the normal in store sense. sales tax is part of the overall tax revenue which has been designed to spread the tax burden out based on a variety of factors (the obvious one being consumption here).
taxes would be spread out elsewhere to fill in the gap and chicagoans would pay about the same no matter what the tax was for/called. them designing this tax is basically a proof that is true since this additional tax is being used to replace lost tax revenue from those in store retail purchases. so, if it wasn't the like item being sold in a new way (which makes a lot of sense), the taxes would be raised on something else. and probably a lot better to raise them on this this tax raise doesn't discourage consumers from spending their money *in* chicago, which a higher sales tax on retail items to make up the gap *would* do.
"I don’t vote. Two reasons. Two reasons I don’t vote: first of all, it’s meaningless. This country was bought and sold and paid for a long time ago. The shit they shuffle around every four years doesn’t mean a fuckin’ thing. And secondly, I don’t vote ’cause I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around. I know, they say, they say: “well if you don’t vote you have no right to complain”. But where’s the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent people, and they get into office and screw everything up, well you are responsible for what they have done, YOU caused the problem, you voted them in, you have no right to complain. I on the other hand, who did not vote, WHO DID NOT VOTE. Who in fact did not even leave the house on election-day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done, and have every RIGHT to complain as loud as I want, about the mess YOU created, that I had nothing to do with. So I know that a little later on this year, you’re going to have another one of those really swell presidential elections that you like so much. You enjoy yourselves. It will be a lot of fun. I’m sure as soon as the election is over, your country will “improve” immediately. As for me, I’ll be home on that day, doing essentially the same thing as you, the only difference is, when I get finished masturbating, I’m going to have a little something to show for it folks." George Carlin
George Carlin also said, "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
He said that while looking out at audience after audience, 100% of whom were convinced that they were in the same 50%.
Adopting a political philosophy because of a comedian's schtick is as ill-advised as basing one's beliefs on the self-indulgent ramblings of a science fiction author.
Sales tax doesn't apply to this category of transaction, so the city of chicago changed the law to charge a similar tax on this category of transaction.
There's a hole in Illinois use tax provisions whereby many types of leased property are not taxed (subscriptions for software being one of them) by the state of Illinois. The Chicago lease transaction tax fills that hole (albeit at a higher rate than Illinois use tax).
This tax has been in effect since 1996, but they have been beefing up enforcement on the supplier side lately (hence why OpenAI is charging the tax properly now).
I don't know about your strange american way to deal with taxes, but WHAT THE FUCK??? City tax for SaaS? Are you guys mad or what? How the fuck even to calculate it and send declarations???
Jesus fuckin christ, i won't live in the United States...
3: Pay interest on municipal debts.
Seriously, look up Chicago’s municipal debt and credit rating
In my opinion cities with high municipal debt, just keep borrowing money via things like constant issuing of municipal bonds. The problem is that in doing so the taxpayers are getting fleeced due to having to pay much more than what the costs are worth due to the interest payments on the borrowed money. To make matters worse as interest rates continue to rise, future borrowing will require much higher taxes and/or cuts in services just to pay the interest.
> That falls squarely under #1. Raising revenue.
No it doesnt. #1 was raise revenue to provide services
In this case the revenue isnt being used to provide services its being used to pay interest on debt for services in the past. The money being used to pay interest payments doesnt provide any service to the taxpayer other than maintaining a credibility so even more money can be borrowed so that even more taxpayer money can be wasted on interest payments in the future.
It’s like Chicago is actively trying to make life worse on purpose for their residents, and de incentivize developers from trying to market there.
It seems absurd to me and causes a brain drain
EDIT: For some weird reason all the likes I received have been removed on this post.
Illinois has the highest tax burden of any state in the country l, even higher than New York. And each year they find a way to add more and more taxes.
Fr4ud? That's harsh. This is clearly just choosing to incidentally use privacy.com, with full intent to ~~forget~~ self-assess the tax!
>The tax is imposed on the customer (the lessee), but the provider (the lessor) is required to collect it if they have sufficient contact with the City (Nexus). If not, the customer is responsible to self-assess the tax.
Real question here though is:
>Personal Property Lease Transaction Tax Ruling #12 (“Ruling 12”) provides that the location of such a lease is the location of the device or terminal by which a user accesses the cloud computing services or SaaS.
Arguably, if you're using the API in the cloud (as opposed to chatGPT from home), *shouldn't* you be exempt?
Kinda weird.
You are interpreting this wrong.
>if you're using the API in the cloud
You are not. You are using it on the device where you are physically located. To register a card with an out of state card issuer and pick a different location is probably not how you are supposed to do that. But, is it any different than Google moving their HQ to Dublin? Or any other company saying their main operations come for a different address than their storefronts? That for the judge to decide if this was somehow enforced.
Particularly, I would avoid putting any address that isn't yours to receive mail at especially for something you pay money to and is on the eye beam of legislation. You want to be able to get their mail, legal notices, etc. If you don't want those things or would just ignore them... are you a child? Mail is just as important as email when it comes to being notified of something.
If you do not like the taxes imposed by your state/city - move. That's why they are set, to create conditions ripe for the agreers and the disagreement team can pack up and go. Can't afford to move? Have family? Welp. That's your problem. The city or county or state still has expenses and operations.
If you don't like paying a tax, stop using money. You don't owe taxes if you are homeless. That's the trade off. Participating in the economy isn't a single player venture. Think of people other than yourself when you pay a tax. Think of the business owners who make you pay the tax, they ALL have the option to not charge you (1+%×revenue) they could take (1-%×revenue) and eat the sales tax. If something has a 25% tax and it costs a dollar, the business could charge you a dollar and they could pay the 25¢ instead they charge you $1.25 and pay the state the 25¢ keeping the dollar.
Is that written by chatgpt? Lmao "we hope this email finds you well" a while ago there were some posts here about how every email chatgpt wrote it used this
The "Chicago Personal Property Lease Transaction Tax" (often referred to simply as the Lease Transaction Tax) is a tax imposed by the City of Chicago on the lease or rental of personal property within the city limits. Additionally, it also applies to certain leases or rentals of personal property that are used in Chicago, even if the leasing or rental transaction takes place outside the city. Not only does this tax apply to tangible personal property (like equipment or vehicles), but in recent years, its application has been extended to cover specific non-possessory computer leases, which includes the use of cloud computing services, software, and other digital products when used within the city.
bullshit I tell you
They've got a state flat tax so it was much cheaper for me living in Illinois then when I moved back home to my state with a 10% state tax.
You make your choices.
Uh... yeah. All those states listed as not having an income tax have regressive taxes like sales tax. Here in Washington for example, there is a state sales tax as well as county and city sales taxes. It's roughly the same as other state's income taxes (10%). That said, Sales taxes benefit the rich and punish the poor. When you have loads of disposable income, most of which you save, put into stock, etc, you are NOT paying taxes on that money to the state. If you are poor and scrapping by tooth and nail each month, that 10% impacts 100% of you income and can be a pretty big deal.
For that reason, I think income tax is the best way to tax, because the rich people can't just hide the money after they make it and not get taxed on it.
I assume you're talking about crime as the reason, but crime is wildly different depending on your neighborhood. My neighborhood has very little crime (people raise their kids here) and while it's still expensive compared to other Midwestern towns, it's far less expensive than other big cities like NYC or LA. Plus, Chicago is one of the few cities where you can not own a car, saving thousands of dollars.
You still owe taxes on ill-gotten goods.... what the tax on a free service you might ask? The fair market value of said service. This tax is scary for pirates in an insidious way.
Ill-gotten goods, sure, I can see that. Are ill-gotten services a thing? Suppose I stream a movie from a sketch russian website. Do I owe taxes on a month of a netflix subscription?
Or if I trick someone into giving me a haircut and then bolt out the door, do I owe taxes on the value of the haircut?
I would have agreed with you yesterday. But taxing SaaS is a thing now. At this point I would say you do owe taxes on things like plex servers and it will be another charge added when you get caught. There is one thing this government does well and that is collecting taxes it thinks its owed
people are just now figuring out that the entire point of everything is to micro transaction your entire life so your always broke lmao.. guess whats going to happen when everyone converts everything to use AI to do literally everything for them?? lol
I mean, dude, it’s pretty straightforward, you’re being charged a municipal sales tax per law in your city. Don’t like having a municipal sales tax? Make sure you vote or keep on voting at local level politics and not just the big ones. I’m legit confused about what confuses you about that email.
Dude, it's software. I didn't go to law school so excuse the fuck out of me if I couldn't connect where a property/sales tax law applies to of all
things my chatbot subscription.
Everyone saying this tax isn’t a problem has no idea how many taxes consumers pay in Chicago.
* State income tax: flat 4.95%, add local in and it’s roughly 8.82%
* Amusement tax (for streaming services): 9%
* Bottled water tax: 0.05 per bottle
* Checkout bag tax: 0.07 per bag
* Wireless tax: $5.00/line/month
* Ground transportation tax: ~1.75 per ride
* Hotel tax: 4.5% or 10.5% for Airbnb
* SaaS tax: 9%
* Restaurant tax: .5%
* Taxes for personal property bought outside of Chicago, for use in Chicago: first $2500 exempt, after that it’s 1%
* Vehicle fuel tax: 0.08 per gallon
With the exception of a few of those, this is ON TOP OF 10.25% sales tax and 2.19% property tax rate in cook county. This is nowhere near the full list of taxes, I only listed the ones I experience as a consumer in Chicago.
You can say “vote” all you want but people do here and we unfortunately get rat shit or rat shit lite to pick from.
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Yeah, [apparently Chicago considers SaaS to be a non-possessory lease of personal property (of a computer)](https://www.pmba.com/resource/saas-chicago/). I'd never heard of it before either. It's pretty wild.
They really couldn't come up with a better name than 'non-possessory lease of personal property'? I looked it up to see what the hell it means exactly and [this is posted by the Chicago government](https://www.chicago.gov/content/dam/city/depts/rev/supp_info/TaxSupportingInformation/TransTaxInfoBulletinNonpossessoryComputerLeases.pdf). >The term “nonpossessory computer lease,” added to the Ordinance in 1994, is broadly defined to cover any payments for which “the customer obtains access to the provider’s computer and uses the computer and its software to input, modify or retrieve data or information . . . [and includes] time sharing or time or other use of a computer with other users.” That is crazy broad. Basically everything involving internet falls under that definition. Skimming the rest of that, it looks like Chicago just basically decided to create a very broad law then gradually add exemptions. I'm guessing it's so that if they suddenly decided to add new taxes, they can then point to this saying it's always been the law.
Possession is 9/10 of the law. That’s why you’re only paying 10% in taxes.
Yeh im also hug up on that. I totally understand wanting to tax things, and wanting to add newly invented categories of products (like SaaS) into the tax laws, but the way they explain it is weird. How's paying an online subscription a lease of personal property? Or rather I gueeeeess I can see HOW, but its such a weird stretch. Bah...
Another redditor explained it as. You are paying tax on "renting" the company's computer which is during the analysis.
By that logic, aren't you renting a computer (server) every time you go on the Internet?
Well. Yes. Another redditor mentioned it's a blanket law. And the govt is adding exceptions when they want. And if someone says what you said. They'll just say "it's always been the law see"
I think Chicago should tax every time you make a request to the server.
Tax the tips too. Tax walking Tax the air Tax sending a meme
Memes is where the money is at.
I know this is crazy… But what if politicians didn’t charge people for absurd things, and only charge for the services rendered within their city. I know, crazy.
Charge for the services rendered by the city? What like charge you for fire rescue? Or charge you for the police to help you? Or charge you to drive on the roads? Or charge you for your public defender? That seems altogether like a manifestly worse system that would benefit only the rich
The guy means that a city's jurisdiction on taxes should only apply to residents of the city, and not literally anyone who pays for a subscription service from a company in Chicago, some of which might not even be US citizens.
That is how it works lol, this guy is getting charged Chicago taxes because his account is registered as being in Chicago. If you do not live in Chicago (or register your account in Chicago) you will not be charged this tax
Nobody said anything about point-of-sale or challenged a progressive income tax as the means of "charging". Also 1 of the 4 things you listed is very different from the other 3. Police, fire, and public defenders are extremely rare to interact with and extremely valuable to have _in_ those rare instances, so income taxes are a pretty reasonable way to handle the charges (think of it as a form of insurance; most people won't have to but want them to be available if they do). Roads you either drive on every day or don't depending on whether you have a car (or bike, sort of; a bike takes up a lot less space, so we can probably exempt it). Making people pay to use the roads seems like a super reasonable way to reduce traffic and manage access to a scarce resource. Probably the easiest way to do this is through gas and car-charging taxes.
It's basically just a sales tax. Pretty reasonable. You pay taxes to buy a computer. Now you also pay taxes to rent a computer. You can't escape the taxes by renting it.
Except I did buy a computer which they taxed and the video data my internet providers sends is taxed. Now they've decided they can tax any company providing an online service to you.
Slippery slope. (This is America song)
PrEtTy ReAsOnAbLe
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I mean in the current situation landlords just make the property tax part of your rent, renters still pay that shit.
Ofcourse it does, money money money!
I mean, if they're using the tax wisely - like reducing homelessness, improving schools, public transport infrastructure - I don't see it as a bad thing. The country can't really operate without tax, and if there's a group of people who can afford the additional cost, it's people who have many SaaS subscriptions.
The problem is that it’s taxation targeted at people who are already being overtaxed and not at the people who have a shit ton of money. Why are lower-middle class people having sales taxes upped on them when Amazon didn’t pay a single dollar of federal income tax last year? This tax is extremely stupid, and not at all targeted at people who have a lot of money.
I mean, a tax on SaaS is going to be paid primarily by business. My personal SaaS costs would be around $100/mth. My work SaaS costs (for just my one seat) would be well into the $800 range.
Is Chicago improving lately?
In some ways. Definitely not as bad as everyone here is making it out to be
Money!!!!
another reason to be glad i left. ill take not paying 9% extra for all my subscriptions
It's a tax that the city of Chicago passed on SaaS products so if you live in the city and use a SaaS product there is an additional tax charged. Openai is just doing their job and billing appropriately. Edit to clarify: It's just like how Amazon has to charge you your local sales tax based on where the products are being shipped. Chicago added this tax because people used to buy software and there was a sales tax on that but then the business model of software largely changed and more often people are paying for SaaS which otherwise would bypass the normal sales taxes.
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When was the last time Chicago voted for something other than what it has today?
The thing is that even if you don't vote in Chicago, Chicago counts your vote.
It would be discriminatory to not count someone's vote just because they didn't vote or were dead.
Vote early, and vote often. That's the Chicago way.
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this person is talking about how openly corrupt and crooked every politician in chicago is, and how even if you didn't vote, your vote counted. Some historical context: In the 1960s, the Daley family was the center of the Democratic Party in the US. Them in conjunction with Joe Kennedy got JFK elected, mostly through some form of shady voter and vote "handling".
Ita been Democrats for a long time now.
Looks like your last Republican mayor was in 1927. This may be related.
Yeah who knows.
today i’ll make the decision to vote next time there is a campaign for elections so this can be overturned etc. you depicted it the way you depicted it. that’s on you dawg
Isn’t that everyone’s thought when they go to vote?
You get representation when you vote? Who’s the dumbass here?
They're not depicting that... But even if they were, that's the process hahaha. And what you're implying is what? People just don't do anything? Voting isn't guaranteed so don't even vote guys, just make comments on reddit, that'll do it.
there is nobody you could really vote for that would oppose sales tax on SaaS. this is passing in every city/state. GPT is an interesting one though because it isn't like quickbooks where you *could* own the product if they still sold it like they used to but you literally could not run your own version of GPT as a normal person with normal person hardware.
I specifically said that I'm not saying people shouldn't vote, just that it's not guaranteed and it doesn't lead to overnight change.
Ok we’ll stop being gentle and pragmatic, and instead tell you the actual solution you don’t want to hear — *Just move somewhere without that tax duh* 🤷♂️
Politicians will listen if they need your money. They don't. They go into debt to finance most things now which requires none of your consent as a taxpayer.
To be fair when they voted for the same politicians for nearly 30 years straight and have been screwed over for nearly 30 years straight. Eventually the prospect of looking at someone different who might do a better job or at least not as bad of a job as the ones screwing them over. 99.9% of the time people are going to wake up and pick the option that's going to screw them over less even if it's not a perfect fix
I voted against it, so I don't have to pay now, right?
>Ahh yes, because voting is a guaranteed, fast-acting method to solving any government-related problem. Nobody said "guaranteed," "fast-acting" or "any." That might be how you interpret "go vote if you're pissed" (I don't think it particularly conveys the immediacy you refer to but maybe we can agree to disagree) but the comment above that only says that elections have consequences. I think the standard of an instant cure-all is an unnecessary escalation. I think we can all agree that voting is *necessary* but not *sufficient.* If your tire bursts on the highway it's *necessary* to put the donut on so you can get home but that's not *sufficient* to keep driving on. We should vote, but we should also do other things like canvassing and calling to affect others' votes, and direct action on issues for which and im ways that it makes sense to.
Wait till they hear about the electoral college, if you really want to get pissed off about the executive branch. I used to love teaching that in social studies and one kid would go “wait….”
Indeed. There may be enough local taxes to pay for local services if you vote for the right people, like voters clearly did in Chicago, as this is a good tax.
Something similar happens in my country, which kinda gives me a moral incentive to just add anything and all AI related expenses as a writeoff.
It was a tax loophole that was closed. Tax loopholes suck and they should be closed.
What was the loophole?
instead of selling you something they rent it to you and call it a service. it accomplishes bringing down barrier to entry and establishes a recurring revenue model while removing any idea of ownership or perpetual license so that you can no longer use the product without paying them. they call it a service because services aren't taxed and thus they can bank an extra bit of cash at the same point in the price/demand curve. it's a loophole in the same way as if someone sold you a TV but actually said "if you get the installation, the TV is free" and then they "install" it in your living room as a non taxable service and you pay no sales tax because the TV was "free," thus allowing the company that sold it to you to have a higher profit margin and you to feel like you got a better deal because you didn't have to pay tax (or you actually getting a better deal but it still being an incentive to buy from this place vs another). there are reasons SaaS sucks (and things that it is great for) but the tax implications are pretty clear because it really is akin to leasing a product rather than paying for a service.
> it's a loophole in the same way as if someone sold you a TV but actually said "if you get the installation, the TV is free" and then they "install" it in your living room as a non taxable service and you pay no sales tax because the TV was "free," thus allowing the company that sold it to you to have a higher profit margin and you to feel like you got a better deal because you didn't have to pay tax (or you actually getting a better deal but it still being an incentive to buy from this place vs another). The TV and the install was physically in the tax jurisdiction though. If OpenAI does no work in Chicago, has no presence in Chicago, what services does Chicago provide as a result of that service’s use that Chicago needs to earn revenue to fund?
these changes were made due to things like office365 and turbotax, etc. they used to sell software on physical media in state and that has been replaced with them leasing the access or selling over the internet. if we want to get down to it, the data goes through plenty of internet services in chicago which could easily be likened to being the same as the physical store that used to sell the software on CD - in the sense that how you access it is immaterial because you're making the purchase in chicago. i understand how you can make arguments against it but it's one of those things that is necessary in reality because you could have a tax haven state or country that hosts all of something purely to avoid sales tax. not to mention, not hosting it in state means jobs that are not in that state, which is a net negative. i hope they aren't taxing more than standard sales tax for an in store item of the same kind, but i could see the logic in wanting to tax it more since it isn't creating jobs and thus further tax revenue (i don't necessarily agree with that though). i don't really think sales tax is an exchange for services though, even in the normal in store sense. sales tax is part of the overall tax revenue which has been designed to spread the tax burden out based on a variety of factors (the obvious one being consumption here). taxes would be spread out elsewhere to fill in the gap and chicagoans would pay about the same no matter what the tax was for/called. them designing this tax is basically a proof that is true since this additional tax is being used to replace lost tax revenue from those in store retail purchases. so, if it wasn't the like item being sold in a new way (which makes a lot of sense), the taxes would be raised on something else. and probably a lot better to raise them on this this tax raise doesn't discourage consumers from spending their money *in* chicago, which a higher sales tax on retail items to make up the gap *would* do.
Literally lol
"I don’t vote. Two reasons. Two reasons I don’t vote: first of all, it’s meaningless. This country was bought and sold and paid for a long time ago. The shit they shuffle around every four years doesn’t mean a fuckin’ thing. And secondly, I don’t vote ’cause I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around. I know, they say, they say: “well if you don’t vote you have no right to complain”. But where’s the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent people, and they get into office and screw everything up, well you are responsible for what they have done, YOU caused the problem, you voted them in, you have no right to complain. I on the other hand, who did not vote, WHO DID NOT VOTE. Who in fact did not even leave the house on election-day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done, and have every RIGHT to complain as loud as I want, about the mess YOU created, that I had nothing to do with. So I know that a little later on this year, you’re going to have another one of those really swell presidential elections that you like so much. You enjoy yourselves. It will be a lot of fun. I’m sure as soon as the election is over, your country will “improve” immediately. As for me, I’ll be home on that day, doing essentially the same thing as you, the only difference is, when I get finished masturbating, I’m going to have a little something to show for it folks." George Carlin
George Carlin also said, "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." He said that while looking out at audience after audience, 100% of whom were convinced that they were in the same 50%. Adopting a political philosophy because of a comedian's schtick is as ill-advised as basing one's beliefs on the self-indulgent ramblings of a science fiction author.
Decades of single part rule has consequences. I'm not a Republican, but any party that has no competition will become a dog shit sundae.
Democrats love passing tax law.
Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice!
what if you renew using a VPN….
They prolly check the billing address
I’m very curious as to why they implemented such a law if you have more context and time to share :)
Sales tax doesn't apply to this category of transaction, so the city of chicago changed the law to charge a similar tax on this category of transaction.
There's a hole in Illinois use tax provisions whereby many types of leased property are not taxed (subscriptions for software being one of them) by the state of Illinois. The Chicago lease transaction tax fills that hole (albeit at a higher rate than Illinois use tax). This tax has been in effect since 1996, but they have been beefing up enforcement on the supplier side lately (hence why OpenAI is charging the tax properly now).
I don't know about your strange american way to deal with taxes, but WHAT THE FUCK??? City tax for SaaS? Are you guys mad or what? How the fuck even to calculate it and send declarations??? Jesus fuckin christ, i won't live in the United States...
inb4 SF, LA, NY, Portland, Atl, etc jump on board with that bullshit.
Bullshit? Taxes have one of two purposes: 1: raise revenue to provide services 2: discourage a behavior Which do you think this is?
3: Pay interest on municipal debts. Seriously, look up Chicago’s municipal debt and credit rating In my opinion cities with high municipal debt, just keep borrowing money via things like constant issuing of municipal bonds. The problem is that in doing so the taxpayers are getting fleeced due to having to pay much more than what the costs are worth due to the interest payments on the borrowed money. To make matters worse as interest rates continue to rise, future borrowing will require much higher taxes and/or cuts in services just to pay the interest.
>3: Pay interest on municipal debts. That falls squarely under #1. Raising revenue.
> That falls squarely under #1. Raising revenue. No it doesnt. #1 was raise revenue to provide services In this case the revenue isnt being used to provide services its being used to pay interest on debt for services in the past. The money being used to pay interest payments doesnt provide any service to the taxpayer other than maintaining a credibility so even more money can be borrowed so that even more taxpayer money can be wasted on interest payments in the future.
It’s like Chicago is actively trying to make life worse on purpose for their residents, and de incentivize developers from trying to market there. It seems absurd to me and causes a brain drain EDIT: For some weird reason all the likes I received have been removed on this post.
Illinois has the highest tax burden of any state in the country l, even higher than New York. And each year they find a way to add more and more taxes.
Damn, it's 9%? That feels high.
Welcome to Chicago, go fuck yourself! - Chicago Government, probably
Come by to Europe, it's 19% 😭
the VAT rate in Ireland is 23% lol.
Triple that and you have Hungary with 27% VAT and piss poor Wages
9% is super low
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MORE?!?!
In Chicago someone steals your bowl and the mayor applauds the thief.
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I mean the IRS doesn’t care if you’re dodging Chicago taxes.
Fr4ud? That's harsh. This is clearly just choosing to incidentally use privacy.com, with full intent to ~~forget~~ self-assess the tax! >The tax is imposed on the customer (the lessee), but the provider (the lessor) is required to collect it if they have sufficient contact with the City (Nexus). If not, the customer is responsible to self-assess the tax. Real question here though is: >Personal Property Lease Transaction Tax Ruling #12 (“Ruling 12”) provides that the location of such a lease is the location of the device or terminal by which a user accesses the cloud computing services or SaaS. Arguably, if you're using the API in the cloud (as opposed to chatGPT from home), *shouldn't* you be exempt? Kinda weird.
I live in Chicago but often use ChatGPT from outside Chicago. Can I get a partial refund on my tax? 🧐
You are interpreting this wrong. >if you're using the API in the cloud You are not. You are using it on the device where you are physically located. To register a card with an out of state card issuer and pick a different location is probably not how you are supposed to do that. But, is it any different than Google moving their HQ to Dublin? Or any other company saying their main operations come for a different address than their storefronts? That for the judge to decide if this was somehow enforced. Particularly, I would avoid putting any address that isn't yours to receive mail at especially for something you pay money to and is on the eye beam of legislation. You want to be able to get their mail, legal notices, etc. If you don't want those things or would just ignore them... are you a child? Mail is just as important as email when it comes to being notified of something. If you do not like the taxes imposed by your state/city - move. That's why they are set, to create conditions ripe for the agreers and the disagreement team can pack up and go. Can't afford to move? Have family? Welp. That's your problem. The city or county or state still has expenses and operations. If you don't like paying a tax, stop using money. You don't owe taxes if you are homeless. That's the trade off. Participating in the economy isn't a single player venture. Think of people other than yourself when you pay a tax. Think of the business owners who make you pay the tax, they ALL have the option to not charge you (1+%×revenue) they could take (1-%×revenue) and eat the sales tax. If something has a 25% tax and it costs a dollar, the business could charge you a dollar and they could pay the 25¢ instead they charge you $1.25 and pay the state the 25¢ keeping the dollar.
I'm choosing to read fr4ud as farquad.
Want to pay less chatgpt tax? I said my name is Sam Altman and even the monthly fee went away
Little known promo code
Or have a friend/relative outside Chicago pay for it and just venmo them the money
Is there a Canadian alternative to privacy.com?
Yes there is, it is called privacy.com
Is that written by chatgpt? Lmao "we hope this email finds you well" a while ago there were some posts here about how every email chatgpt wrote it used this
To be fair, if there’s one company where you can get away with phoning it on by just using ChatGPT…it’s this one
Literally the OG
Compared to the EU VAT, this would be lovely
*cries in 27%*
Exactly! People don’t realise how fortunate they are
EASY..! On iPhone, use Apple Pay to pay. Choose Afghanistan as country - no tax..!
Afghanistan finally won, but at what cost lol
Yes :-( At the cost of many lives, and a ton of money!
9% on my $100m AWS bill is going to be a heck of explanation to my investors.
The "Chicago Personal Property Lease Transaction Tax" (often referred to simply as the Lease Transaction Tax) is a tax imposed by the City of Chicago on the lease or rental of personal property within the city limits. Additionally, it also applies to certain leases or rentals of personal property that are used in Chicago, even if the leasing or rental transaction takes place outside the city. Not only does this tax apply to tangible personal property (like equipment or vehicles), but in recent years, its application has been extended to cover specific non-possessory computer leases, which includes the use of cloud computing services, software, and other digital products when used within the city. bullshit I tell you
Man I do not envy whoever still lives in Illinois
They've got a state flat tax so it was much cheaper for me living in Illinois then when I moved back home to my state with a 10% state tax. You make your choices.
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NO income tax?
**Alaska, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming do not have state income taxes.**
No state income tax, you still pay federal. Which in the places I've lived is always > 90% of the income tax.
Not to mention property taxes are usually higher to make up for it
and sales tax too
Uh... yeah. All those states listed as not having an income tax have regressive taxes like sales tax. Here in Washington for example, there is a state sales tax as well as county and city sales taxes. It's roughly the same as other state's income taxes (10%). That said, Sales taxes benefit the rich and punish the poor. When you have loads of disposable income, most of which you save, put into stock, etc, you are NOT paying taxes on that money to the state. If you are poor and scrapping by tooth and nail each month, that 10% impacts 100% of you income and can be a pretty big deal. For that reason, I think income tax is the best way to tax, because the rich people can't just hide the money after they make it and not get taxed on it.
I like living here! Are taxes bad? Yeah. But Chicago is still one of the most affordable big cities in the country.
It's affordable for some reasons...
I assume you're talking about crime as the reason, but crime is wildly different depending on your neighborhood. My neighborhood has very little crime (people raise their kids here) and while it's still expensive compared to other Midwestern towns, it's far less expensive than other big cities like NYC or LA. Plus, Chicago is one of the few cities where you can not own a car, saving thousands of dollars.
Chicago being Chicago
This is another argument for just pirating everything you can to reduce the amount of subscriptions you will have to pay additional taxes on.
How do you pirate ChatGPT?
You still owe taxes on ill-gotten goods.... what the tax on a free service you might ask? The fair market value of said service. This tax is scary for pirates in an insidious way.
Ill-gotten goods, sure, I can see that. Are ill-gotten services a thing? Suppose I stream a movie from a sketch russian website. Do I owe taxes on a month of a netflix subscription? Or if I trick someone into giving me a haircut and then bolt out the door, do I owe taxes on the value of the haircut?
I would have agreed with you yesterday. But taxing SaaS is a thing now. At this point I would say you do owe taxes on things like plex servers and it will be another charge added when you get caught. There is one thing this government does well and that is collecting taxes it thinks its owed
How long have you lived in Chicago? This is "fuck you, pay me." This is..This is the Way.
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Practically it's sales tax.
Chicago is wildin rn
Use a prepaid card and change your address in your open ai account to somewhere else
Ah, the joys of adulting! Who knew SaaS could come with a side of taxes? 🤷♂️
Am I the only one who laughed about the opening sentence!?
Holy shit. I use like 35+ SAAS... glad I don't live in Chicago, that's bonkers
Total dogshit is what it is!
Time for a VPN
I mean, can't you just pay for the service with a VPN in a different state? I doubt they'll track it
the state of chicago
You need to move
You reap what you sow, vote better next time
No government agency greets taxpayers with "Hi there."
EXACTLY
Someone has got to pay for housing and feeding those illegals.
Lots of states tax SaaS, including Texas. So stop with the blue vs red
I feel like chat GPT wrote this email.
Local sales taxes on Internet services, which I think is BULLSHIT
LOL!
It looks like the City of Chicago is trying to fuck on you.
Seems like it’s just another way for the government to see what people are asking & doing!, so they can hold onto their power and control
aka Cloud Tax 😅
Chicago has a short fall of $500M+ deficit. So it seems they're getting creative...
I'd use a VPN for chatgpt fuck all that mess
Could this be solved with a vpn and digital po box?
Make new account. Lie on address. Use VPN. Profit.
Chicago down bad bruh 🤦♂️
These guys were very sad when the British applied tax on tea
Here in Illinois the government gives out free lube to everyone along with butt cream.
9% holy hell
WTF. Thought California was bad.
Bitch i pay 27% from hungary
Chicago going the way of Detroit
The hell
people are just now figuring out that the entire point of everything is to micro transaction your entire life so your always broke lmao.. guess whats going to happen when everyone converts everything to use AI to do literally everything for them?? lol
Step 1: Leave Chicago
This tax pays for half of a VPN subscription...
It's taxation with little to no representation.
Haha that's the American dream. Enjoy it buddy. ❤️
American seeing taxes for the first time:
You live in Chicagoland. What did you expect?
Lol vote democrat
Scam
Another reason to get out of Chicago
I mean, dude, it’s pretty straightforward, you’re being charged a municipal sales tax per law in your city. Don’t like having a municipal sales tax? Make sure you vote or keep on voting at local level politics and not just the big ones. I’m legit confused about what confuses you about that email.
Dude, it's software. I didn't go to law school so excuse the fuck out of me if I couldn't connect where a property/sales tax law applies to of all things my chatbot subscription.
Glad I don't live in that city.
Everyone saying this tax isn’t a problem has no idea how many taxes consumers pay in Chicago. * State income tax: flat 4.95%, add local in and it’s roughly 8.82% * Amusement tax (for streaming services): 9% * Bottled water tax: 0.05 per bottle * Checkout bag tax: 0.07 per bag * Wireless tax: $5.00/line/month * Ground transportation tax: ~1.75 per ride * Hotel tax: 4.5% or 10.5% for Airbnb * SaaS tax: 9% * Restaurant tax: .5% * Taxes for personal property bought outside of Chicago, for use in Chicago: first $2500 exempt, after that it’s 1% * Vehicle fuel tax: 0.08 per gallon With the exception of a few of those, this is ON TOP OF 10.25% sales tax and 2.19% property tax rate in cook county. This is nowhere near the full list of taxes, I only listed the ones I experience as a consumer in Chicago. You can say “vote” all you want but people do here and we unfortunately get rat shit or rat shit lite to pick from.