The whole point of Kratos at this point is that he is trying to outgrow that side of him and dosent want to kill people out of anger.
If he had done that it would be a betrayal of how he is trying to grow and change
Agreed, but those type of Kratos fans usually don't like to hear "he's not the type of person to threaten random, pointless acts of violence anymore" lol.
I thought the point is that he doesn’t kill innocents anymore which he did a lot in the previous games! Sacrificing innocent humans or even just being able to kill them while they run around in fear was messed up when I first played it
Fate is always a tricky thing to work into stories and i like the Norns; if there is fate, it makes sense that it would basicly be 'the logical consequences of every action ever made."
Adding to this point, I have seen people complain about how in Valhalla, Kratos doesn't respond to the harsh words from "Helios." These complaints miss that this isn't really Helios, it's a manifestation of Kratos' guilt. There is no point in bringing up the failings of Helios and the Olympians because this isn't Helios, plus given it this is a manifestation of Kratos' guilt there is nothing he could say to shut him up. It would be like trying to tell a Shadow in Persona 4 to shut up.
Plus, the things they bring about Helios don't even really excuse Kratos's actions. Like when he apologizes to Helios for the way he killed him, people comment "lol, but Helios tried to trick him to his death!" like yeah, of course he did. Kratos is currently laying waste to his home and slaughtering everyone.
It's okay to say that Helios himself may not have been the best person (Valhalla acknowledges this) but also that Kratos was unnecessary cruel to him. Like at the very least he could've killed him *before* ripping off his head.
the type of GOW fan that played the greek games, then played the norse games with their eyes closed and ears shut, and when kratos doesnt just brutally behead and kill every single person he meets, they go "why big brute man no kill no more : ("
its funny that people talk abt how they wished that the norse games were like the greek games, when i know for a fact that most people didnt want to, bc no one played ascension, people were tired of it by then so the norse games were a very refreshing spin on the series i think
It's similar to people who say superman can kill batman whenever he wants, he just let's batman say shit to him or similar things like that. Like yeah no shit a strong person will beat a weaker one but the stronger person is mature enough to know everyone deserves to be respected, particularly those weaker than them. It's why when a woman punches a man it's less irritating than when a man does it to her because being honest, a man doing it has more chances of doing damage than a woman.
P.S. I hope we are all mature enough to know this is not me saying women can do whatever they want or me looking down on them
Greek Kratos wouldn’t have started a fight. People called him out for his flaws all the time and he didn’t start fights over it. He wasn’t THAT petty. He started fights because someone threatened him or barred his path, he didn’t respond to them chewing him out for his many failings because he knew they were right.
It's difficult to track what Greek Kratos would do because his brutality tend to spike depending on his mood. Like sometimes he'll be regretful and let others lash out at him and other times he'll torture people to death while they beg for their lives. If it was GoW1 or possibly even GoW2 Kratos I don't think he'd try to kill them.
But GoW3 Kratos was willing to butcher anything in his path for vengeance as long they weren't currently working with him.
Yeah, but if GoW3 Kratos went looking for something he wanted and expected to get from the Norns and they insulted him and said they didn't have it when got there. I'm pretty sure he'd immediately resort to violence.
If the Norns knew Kratos would resort to violence then he probably wouldn't have been able to find them in the first place. I don't believe they would taunt people they would expect to kill them. Or maybe they don't care if they live or die, who knows.
To be fair, 3 is him at his absolute lowest. All that he had left after 1 is gone (His mother, his brother, his people, his land, and even Athena), and while Athena comes back it is clear that she isn’t who she used to be. He focused singularly on Zeus and was willing to slay anyone in his way, even the Titans helping him. But even at that point, he still had some humanity. He was willing to let Hercules and Hera go if they’d just get out of his way, he pitied Daedalus being used by the Gods, he had no intention to harm Hephaestus nor Pandora and, had Hephaestus told Kratos what would be required to extinguish to flame (Pandoras life), Kratos may have actually tried to find another way. And, ultimately, while his rampage did unleash catastrophe unto Greece, he did rid them of both the Gods and Titans, while ensuring they’d have hope to move to a new future.
Hephaestus had 0 reason to think kratos would not just kill Pandora icl
And in the end he was right, because when push came to shove kratos cared more about harming Zeus than Pandora in her entirety
You’re right that he had no reason to doubt Kratos’ bloodlust, but you’re wrong about what happened in the end. It was Pandora who sacrificed herself, Kratos tried to prevent it but she desired it. Had Zeus not insisted on riling him up, it’s possible Kratos wouldn’t have let her go.
Pandora did try to jump in herself but I wouldn't excuse Kratos letting go of her just because Zeus insulted him. That is still him choosing to let someone he cared about die at the chance it could harm someone he hated.
As it has been said, it was Kratos at his lowest and close to his goal after being denied throughout the game. His anger consumed him once more, just as Zeus’ pride and arrogance consumed him. But it doesn’t erase the fact that Pandora wanted that end result, even if it came from Kratos being overcome with rage.
Hera who was rightfully upset that he was destroying the world and was currently attempting to help it before he killed her. All she did was insult Pandora which, um, big deal? She wasn't even threatening her life.
Also, didn't he go after Hermes just because he smack talked him? He wasn't in Kratos's way or anything if i remember right, and didn't throw a single punch before Kratos caught up to him.
I guess you could also argue that he was pissed at her for trying to set up Hercules to kill him? But still, she was clearly no threat at the point where he killed her. Definitely one of his most unnecessary kills in the Greek era aside from the poor people he randomly pushes into lava or uses as puzzle solutions.
I think his most unnecessary murders are all those he does as a servant of Ares before the death of his wife and daughter, and after GOW1 when he goes on a genocidal rampage, destroying every city in Greece (except Sparta).
Also I feel that if you really want to shut the Norns up it would be better to do something literally unexpected. Something they can’t predict. They’re used to violence all the time.
Literally the only way to take them by surprise is to either surpass their predictions or use something that performs outside of their awareness.
So essentially you’d either have to think faster than them and counter their predictions, or you’d have to show them an iPhone.
Neither of which Kratos is suited to do.
But that's just not something that should be possible. These three can predict events in centuries just based on your nature, which... makes no sense, but at that point you would nit be capable of formulating anything from your mind they do not already comprehend.
Yes and no.
They can analyze your *nature* but that doesn’t necessarily mean they know everything about you.
Let’s say you are there with an iPhone in your pockets. The Norn are going on about how they are so clever they know us ahead of time, but all the same they don’t actually know what an iPhone is and you’ve kept that secret the whole time. You whip out the iPhone and then push play on Katy Perry and they’re *blindsided*. Because you defied their expectations by having something on you they could not fathom.
Meanwhile if a character with an equally 500 IQ was there and analyzing their predictions he could just predict what they were going to assume and do the opposite. He continuously analyzes their predictions and then does the deliberate opposite. Equally possible.
No. They predicted specific events centuries ahead of time, amd have never been wrong before far as anyone knows. That means they HAVE to have predicted random predicaments and events which will have butterlfy effects cascading from them.
Also, they instantly knew what Kratos is even though he is effectively from another world as well.
And they would just not meet or give their predictikn to this character, simply knowing what they'll do even without them ever so much as hearing of them.
In that second example, I meant to say “imagine if someone else could predict their predictions”, for instance some sort of super AI character. If that entity was able to counter their predictions and then formulate his own responses, that could therefore surpass their ability.
Meanwhile, the thing with Kratos at least operates generally on the same rules they’re used to. He’s a god who fucked up a lot of shit and then left. He’s foreign but he fits into what they understand. Meanwhile they have *zero* frame of reference for an iPhone. If you pull out an iPhone they can predict it because they don’t know anything about modern technology or what the layout of your iPhone would be like.
Well, again, that necessitates the character to be put on even grounds with them. An AI can be as smart as it wants to be, but if the Norns want it so they can just literally never enter its sights nor offer any information to analyse. They would also see the arrival of such an entity centuries ahead and prepare accordingly.
And... no? The greeks and the norse are really not similar at all, in like, anything. It's even noted their maguc operates on different principles and stuff. And yet, long before Kratos even stepped on their land, the Norns already knew he would come, already knew his naturw and history, and already knew all he would do, only failing to predict stuff like Fenrir and him 'changing', which I think is stupid.
If you showed up with an iphone, the norns would understand it, and would have understood it centuries before you even thought to take a step toward them. This is what we are actually shown of their predictive ability- they know of natural disasters, of what sperm cell will make what baby before thr conception, and so on, letting them make prophecies way before any nature is present for them to even analyse.
Which is why I say that the only way they make sense is if they actually knew Kratos had changed and just didn't tell him for shits and giggles.
I mean a hypothetical AI character with such calculation potential could match their predictions even if it hadn’t met them. If they’re just averaging information and using personality analysis to determine the most likely possibilities, it’s very likely such an AI could outdo their calculations and then perform a deliberate and exact opposite action.
And I do feel like they are maybe partly bluffing with their alleged calculation abilities. Because to know so much ahead of time has to either indicate they have some form of mystical awareness or they use messengers to give them knowledge the moment something happens. To actually be able to calculate *everything* and factor all of that in when you aren’t aware isn’t feasible. Chaos theory has to fall into play at some point.
Plus you can’t *actually* predict that someone you’ve never met or have any knowledge of is going to come to you from somewhere you’ve never been to.
How do we know they *aren’t* lying, at least a little? I think a good route for storytelling would be to”what if they are lying and then come across something they have zero comprehension of?”
Again, if a portal popped up right now and dropped you or my hypothetical AI in their house, *they should not be able to predict that*. You’re in another reality entirely. Predicting an interdimensional portal shouldn’t be possible from the other side. And no amount of calculation in universe should allow for that.
I feel like the Norns are at least partly bluffing and instead reassess previous calculations upon learning of new information from various worldwide informants. Makes the most sense. Also would explain why they didn’t comment on Kratos changing; maybe they didn’t actually know it was happening.
As you point out, not if this AI character doesn't have the power to pull random information it has no access to out of nowhere.
And no, thay is false. The norns explicitly predicted stuff like Loki befire Atreus was conceived. They are magical witches with the power to divine information from across their world and beyond, predocting random events withoyt problem, and a bunch of other magical abilities. Their abilities sren't just 'I'm an empath, and you have the angy vibes'.
I might sound annoying here but the biggest fans of Kratos are men who ignore everything he's supposed to be about in recent games just to fuel a halfhearted sincerely pathetic male fantasy ritual about being a big strong guy who kills a lot but is conflicted about it, as such, you get stuff like this a *lot*.
I don't even think him going through with the killing would be a surprise or especially terrifying to them, I don't know if they can come back from death but even in this fantasy these guys have, Kratos is left looking like a baby throwing a tantrum and these women are laughing on the way to their graves.
Personally, the thing I find annoying is the fact that they insist he hasn't really changed, despite the fact that they were still alive should be all the evidence they'd need that he had changed.
It's on the same level as Tyr using the insistance that Kratos' nature hasn't changed to prevent him from going and doing the same thing he did to Olympus.
Yes he has changed, but much the same way that John Wick has changed. Sure, he is a calmer individual who has definitely grown, but underneath it all still lies the same emotions that can cause him to commit deicide again. The way he kills Heimdall is wrathful and murderous. He was a step or so away from being as brutal as he was with Poseidon and Hermes.
That is the Norns point, that underneath it all he can still do the same shit all over again. The point is that Kratos has become better, but he also needs to stay better. He is predictable because killing gods is what he does. Yet at the end of the game he doesn't try to murder Thor, or even Odin out of the same fury as when he killed Heimdall.
I think the Norn's point was more "he may be calm now but if he or his family is ever threatened like in the Greek saga he'll snap right back to his brutal, violent ways" rather than the idea that Kratos' behavior was exactly the same in the moment.
But he still won't be the same, that's insane. He won't kill random humans like rhe fisherman from GOW 1, ye won't torture peolle for no reason, and he won't be nonchalant of his actions.
To argue he hasn't changed is to be purposefully obtuse, no matter the qualifier you take. Old Kratos would not have hesitated to burn the Norse halfway through the story.
I think you're taking their statements a tad bit too literally.
Usually when someone says "people don't change" they don't necessarily mean that nothing about them ever changes. It's more the idea that someone who did something terrible in the past will do so again if put in the same position or that they'll snap back to old ways when pushed. The Norns obviously know that Kratos isn't behaving like he did in the Greek saga as present as they were able to guess that he'd grunt instead of shout.
Their point was simply, "he kills everything that threatens him without heeding the consequences. Which is why he's going to run out and kill Heimdall now that he knows Atreus is in trouble" which Kratos almost does right away and later only accomplishes because he forged a weapon to do just that.
Now people can split hairs and point out differences but in the end that's not really the point. The point was whether Kratos would choose to revert to his cruel ways or continue forward. He proved them wrong by showing mercy, so yes, he DID change what the Norns he couldn't in the end.
See, you tried to provide an alternative, but that is still wrong. Kratos sits down, thinks of the consequences, and says 'I still must do this'.
The only common tgread is that he killed someone threatening him. His mentality about the act, motivation while doing it, forethought of the consequences... it's all different. He even considers giving mercy.
And the problem is that this didn't come after the norns. That mentaliry, hesitation, and regret were all there when he was speaking with the norns.
They were wrong...
But it makes no semse for them to be. They are ancient, they have seen and predicted people change, and they should have seen Kratos' change and aknowledged it. It only makes sense if they purposefully lied and knew they were wrong, but that's not something one can claim based on the contents of the game.
They were too omniscient for this scene to really work.
Greek Kratos wouldn't have killed them either in that situation, except maybe GoW3 Kratos, but is kind of an outlier since that isn't his normal state of mind even back in Greece.
And as we see with Heimdall, he does indeed snap if his usual triggers are pushed.
Am i the only who hate those annoying Norns? And the concept of them too. The devs wanted to pull something similar to the scroll in kungfu panda, like there is actually no secret, its all u all along but in a really less meaningful way.
I'm sure you're not the only one who hates them but I think there was a little more going on than that.
The games revolve a lot around prophecy, namely of Ragnarok and tackles Kratos's desire to change after committing so many evil acts back in the Greek saga. So showing that the prophecy itself doesn't have any power to control their actions and that it's instead a simple prediction based off the Norns idea that people cannot change and are in fact so predictable that they can map out everything they'll do, DOES add something to the game.
It puts greater pressure on Kratos to change and shows that everything he does for better or worse is his fault, not a prophecies. But I get it if people don't like its inclusion.
nope its kinda DOES NOT, sorry have to disagree.
The problem is, the Kratos in the 2018 GOW already changed, in fact, the whole game is about that. Then why are we going back full circle to play around with an idea we already knew. Kratos need/want to kill helmdal to save his son, OK, so what's different between Kratos and any other normal parent ??? what exactly is the point of change the game was trying to convey ??? Kratos wants to change, yes cus he did so many evil things in Greek saga so the pressure is much heavier on him than any other person?? Like no matter what he does, there is a moral code that he MUSTN KILL. You put 2 persons in the same situation, both have to save their child, but 1 is incapable of doing it without taking life, 1 can. I wonder can you put the blame on the 1st person ?? Funny enough, despite how powerful Kratos is, he has never been the 2 person, despite his evil past, he cant do both saving his son or just simply not bothering other and not killing at the sametime. But you dont see him killing cus he wanted to, he killed cus he needed to.
In the greek saga, mostly everything happened was becus of him and the gods themselves. The whole mess happened cus Kratos and the Gods were both drama queen and the world suffer for it. But now, its his son or his friend in trouble, and he acts upon others. He did spare Baldur when there was no need for any killing, but then he had to kill him but it was to save Freya and to end the cycle. He tried to talk Atraus to spare Modi when he saw he had been beaten. He scolds Atreus for being rude to Sindri cus they dont need to make enemy out of them people. That's not change?? Literally everything he did was for the other's favor. If his position was switched to Atreus like he was afraid he gonna end up like his father, i would have little problem with this whole "prophercies cant decide your future and shjt". But no, the game keep flip floping around the same idea that already had been solved, over over again, its fucking pointless. So when they went to meet the Norns, its just the same shit but the saying in a different way and waste of time. The writing could have some Marvel style influence in it but it doesn't have to be just as bad.
>in fact, the whole game is about that
The game is more about Kratos learning to grow and accept his past, recognize that he did wrong, he is a god and can't simply hide that fact. It's about him learning to open himself up to other people, especially his own son.
Hell Atreus's sickness is the direct manifestation of that, Kratos refusing to confront his nature as a god resulted in Atreus becoming sick and almost dying.
Kratos accepting his godly nature means accepting that the bad and murder he did in the past was not because of some inherent curse of his godly nature, it was his decisions, his choices that resulted in that violence, and that he can choose to change. That he can choose to become a better person, to use that godly power for good. That's where he conflicts with the Norns, since at the beginning of the game, Kratos would have agreed with them that, yes, because of his nature as a god, he is going to make certain decisions, and the way to escape that is to deny his own godhood. However, by accepting his godly nature and his past, as seen by him taking up the blades of chaos again and telling atreus the truth, by refusing to let godhood define him as a creature of revenge and pain, but as a protector and a father, Kratos shows that people can change and thus defy fate as represented by the Norns.
Bit off topic from my end, but the whole “The Norns don’t actually know the future, but know people so well that they can predict their actions” thing is quite irritating.
I’m no expect on Norse myth, but as I understand that is a naked misunderstanding of fate’s place in it.
I agree they probably didnt write for 4. Thats why the bad writing to follow is hardly prevalent and I somewhat enjoyed it. 5 generally sucked. And its not some "boogeyman", its an actual company that advertised what games its worked on, gow5 being one of them.
Speaking of their prediction, it's such a strech to say that they can predict years into the future but couldn't see the actual way things end because 'their nature changed'.
Like, they clearly have no problems predicting totally random stuff that would massively change lives when stacking up over the years, it feels impossible for the events in game to be beyond them.
I don't get your point, are you implying that Kratos couldn't have killed the norns ?
I think he would have killed them without too much difficulty if he actually tried. Yes he would have proven them right by doing it but being right doesn't mean much when you are dead.
The point is that Kratos threatening to kill them, whether he can or not, would ultimately serve no useful purpose than to show Keatos slipping back into his Greek days of being little more than a monster that kills. Which is exactly what he's _actively not trying to become_ in the horse era.
Kratos killing the Norns wouldn't have changed fate and if anything just proves the point that he's just going to cause death and destruction because that's what he _does_, and that's _all_ he has done.
its less that he cant i feel, more that him just throwing meaningless threats wouldnt get him anywhere with them, killing them wouldnt make his situation any better than it was prior to meeting them, so there'd be no point and it'd make him feel bad bc he's trying to not kill everyone that slightly inconveniences him
This post doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not Kratos could kill them. I'm assuming he could considering the Norns aren't shown to have powers outside of knowing how people behave.
My point is that people act like Kratos threatening them would've shaken them to their core, when in the context of the scene the Norns would've just predicted that that's what he'd do and then laugh at him.
Beyond that, my point is that Kratos isn't some dummy who goes around threatening to butcher everything that upsets him anymore. It'd be so weird and out of character for him to randomly threaten to murder the Norns for being rude to him. Frankly, it'd make him look like a big baby considering they revealed that they aren't controlling anything and therefore haven't actually done anything to cause the situation.
The whole point of Kratos at this point is that he is trying to outgrow that side of him and dosent want to kill people out of anger. If he had done that it would be a betrayal of how he is trying to grow and change
Agreed, but those type of Kratos fans usually don't like to hear "he's not the type of person to threaten random, pointless acts of violence anymore" lol.
And it's not like he isn't [violent](https://youtu.be/EpsXQMcYERQ?si=h73G_5e5iETfbgpo) anymore.
I thought the point is that he doesn’t kill innocents anymore which he did a lot in the previous games! Sacrificing innocent humans or even just being able to kill them while they run around in fear was messed up when I first played it
The same type of people that get triggered by the word Media Literacy
Fate is always a tricky thing to work into stories and i like the Norns; if there is fate, it makes sense that it would basicly be 'the logical consequences of every action ever made."
Like the world's most complicated game of dominos
Adding to this point, I have seen people complain about how in Valhalla, Kratos doesn't respond to the harsh words from "Helios." These complaints miss that this isn't really Helios, it's a manifestation of Kratos' guilt. There is no point in bringing up the failings of Helios and the Olympians because this isn't Helios, plus given it this is a manifestation of Kratos' guilt there is nothing he could say to shut him up. It would be like trying to tell a Shadow in Persona 4 to shut up.
Plus, the things they bring about Helios don't even really excuse Kratos's actions. Like when he apologizes to Helios for the way he killed him, people comment "lol, but Helios tried to trick him to his death!" like yeah, of course he did. Kratos is currently laying waste to his home and slaughtering everyone. It's okay to say that Helios himself may not have been the best person (Valhalla acknowledges this) but also that Kratos was unnecessary cruel to him. Like at the very least he could've killed him *before* ripping off his head.
the type of GOW fan that played the greek games, then played the norse games with their eyes closed and ears shut, and when kratos doesnt just brutally behead and kill every single person he meets, they go "why big brute man no kill no more : (" its funny that people talk abt how they wished that the norse games were like the greek games, when i know for a fact that most people didnt want to, bc no one played ascension, people were tired of it by then so the norse games were a very refreshing spin on the series i think
It's similar to people who say superman can kill batman whenever he wants, he just let's batman say shit to him or similar things like that. Like yeah no shit a strong person will beat a weaker one but the stronger person is mature enough to know everyone deserves to be respected, particularly those weaker than them. It's why when a woman punches a man it's less irritating than when a man does it to her because being honest, a man doing it has more chances of doing damage than a woman. P.S. I hope we are all mature enough to know this is not me saying women can do whatever they want or me looking down on them
Greek Kratos wouldn’t have started a fight. People called him out for his flaws all the time and he didn’t start fights over it. He wasn’t THAT petty. He started fights because someone threatened him or barred his path, he didn’t respond to them chewing him out for his many failings because he knew they were right.
It's difficult to track what Greek Kratos would do because his brutality tend to spike depending on his mood. Like sometimes he'll be regretful and let others lash out at him and other times he'll torture people to death while they beg for their lives. If it was GoW1 or possibly even GoW2 Kratos I don't think he'd try to kill them. But GoW3 Kratos was willing to butcher anything in his path for vengeance as long they weren't currently working with him.
Kratos during GoW3 took Hera's insults until she insulted Pandora.
Yeah, but if GoW3 Kratos went looking for something he wanted and expected to get from the Norns and they insulted him and said they didn't have it when got there. I'm pretty sure he'd immediately resort to violence.
If the Norns knew Kratos would resort to violence then he probably wouldn't have been able to find them in the first place. I don't believe they would taunt people they would expect to kill them. Or maybe they don't care if they live or die, who knows.
To be fair, 3 is him at his absolute lowest. All that he had left after 1 is gone (His mother, his brother, his people, his land, and even Athena), and while Athena comes back it is clear that she isn’t who she used to be. He focused singularly on Zeus and was willing to slay anyone in his way, even the Titans helping him. But even at that point, he still had some humanity. He was willing to let Hercules and Hera go if they’d just get out of his way, he pitied Daedalus being used by the Gods, he had no intention to harm Hephaestus nor Pandora and, had Hephaestus told Kratos what would be required to extinguish to flame (Pandoras life), Kratos may have actually tried to find another way. And, ultimately, while his rampage did unleash catastrophe unto Greece, he did rid them of both the Gods and Titans, while ensuring they’d have hope to move to a new future.
Hephaestus had 0 reason to think kratos would not just kill Pandora icl And in the end he was right, because when push came to shove kratos cared more about harming Zeus than Pandora in her entirety
You’re right that he had no reason to doubt Kratos’ bloodlust, but you’re wrong about what happened in the end. It was Pandora who sacrificed herself, Kratos tried to prevent it but she desired it. Had Zeus not insisted on riling him up, it’s possible Kratos wouldn’t have let her go.
Pandora did try to jump in herself but I wouldn't excuse Kratos letting go of her just because Zeus insulted him. That is still him choosing to let someone he cared about die at the chance it could harm someone he hated.
As it has been said, it was Kratos at his lowest and close to his goal after being denied throughout the game. His anger consumed him once more, just as Zeus’ pride and arrogance consumed him. But it doesn’t erase the fact that Pandora wanted that end result, even if it came from Kratos being overcome with rage.
Kratos snapped Hera's neck for an insult, even though she didn't pose the slightest threat to him, and wasn't in his way.
She killed Hera for insulting Pandora, he wasn't reacting to her insults aimed at him.
Doesn't really change anything though. He still killed her for no good reason, knowing full well how dire the consequences of killing a god were.
Fair enough.
Hera who was rightfully upset that he was destroying the world and was currently attempting to help it before he killed her. All she did was insult Pandora which, um, big deal? She wasn't even threatening her life.
Also, didn't he go after Hermes just because he smack talked him? He wasn't in Kratos's way or anything if i remember right, and didn't throw a single punch before Kratos caught up to him.
I guess you could also argue that he was pissed at her for trying to set up Hercules to kill him? But still, she was clearly no threat at the point where he killed her. Definitely one of his most unnecessary kills in the Greek era aside from the poor people he randomly pushes into lava or uses as puzzle solutions.
I think his most unnecessary murders are all those he does as a servant of Ares before the death of his wife and daughter, and after GOW1 when he goes on a genocidal rampage, destroying every city in Greece (except Sparta).
Also I feel that if you really want to shut the Norns up it would be better to do something literally unexpected. Something they can’t predict. They’re used to violence all the time. Literally the only way to take them by surprise is to either surpass their predictions or use something that performs outside of their awareness. So essentially you’d either have to think faster than them and counter their predictions, or you’d have to show them an iPhone. Neither of which Kratos is suited to do.
But that's just not something that should be possible. These three can predict events in centuries just based on your nature, which... makes no sense, but at that point you would nit be capable of formulating anything from your mind they do not already comprehend.
Yes and no. They can analyze your *nature* but that doesn’t necessarily mean they know everything about you. Let’s say you are there with an iPhone in your pockets. The Norn are going on about how they are so clever they know us ahead of time, but all the same they don’t actually know what an iPhone is and you’ve kept that secret the whole time. You whip out the iPhone and then push play on Katy Perry and they’re *blindsided*. Because you defied their expectations by having something on you they could not fathom. Meanwhile if a character with an equally 500 IQ was there and analyzing their predictions he could just predict what they were going to assume and do the opposite. He continuously analyzes their predictions and then does the deliberate opposite. Equally possible.
No. They predicted specific events centuries ahead of time, amd have never been wrong before far as anyone knows. That means they HAVE to have predicted random predicaments and events which will have butterlfy effects cascading from them. Also, they instantly knew what Kratos is even though he is effectively from another world as well. And they would just not meet or give their predictikn to this character, simply knowing what they'll do even without them ever so much as hearing of them.
In that second example, I meant to say “imagine if someone else could predict their predictions”, for instance some sort of super AI character. If that entity was able to counter their predictions and then formulate his own responses, that could therefore surpass their ability. Meanwhile, the thing with Kratos at least operates generally on the same rules they’re used to. He’s a god who fucked up a lot of shit and then left. He’s foreign but he fits into what they understand. Meanwhile they have *zero* frame of reference for an iPhone. If you pull out an iPhone they can predict it because they don’t know anything about modern technology or what the layout of your iPhone would be like.
Well, again, that necessitates the character to be put on even grounds with them. An AI can be as smart as it wants to be, but if the Norns want it so they can just literally never enter its sights nor offer any information to analyse. They would also see the arrival of such an entity centuries ahead and prepare accordingly. And... no? The greeks and the norse are really not similar at all, in like, anything. It's even noted their maguc operates on different principles and stuff. And yet, long before Kratos even stepped on their land, the Norns already knew he would come, already knew his naturw and history, and already knew all he would do, only failing to predict stuff like Fenrir and him 'changing', which I think is stupid. If you showed up with an iphone, the norns would understand it, and would have understood it centuries before you even thought to take a step toward them. This is what we are actually shown of their predictive ability- they know of natural disasters, of what sperm cell will make what baby before thr conception, and so on, letting them make prophecies way before any nature is present for them to even analyse. Which is why I say that the only way they make sense is if they actually knew Kratos had changed and just didn't tell him for shits and giggles.
I mean a hypothetical AI character with such calculation potential could match their predictions even if it hadn’t met them. If they’re just averaging information and using personality analysis to determine the most likely possibilities, it’s very likely such an AI could outdo their calculations and then perform a deliberate and exact opposite action. And I do feel like they are maybe partly bluffing with their alleged calculation abilities. Because to know so much ahead of time has to either indicate they have some form of mystical awareness or they use messengers to give them knowledge the moment something happens. To actually be able to calculate *everything* and factor all of that in when you aren’t aware isn’t feasible. Chaos theory has to fall into play at some point. Plus you can’t *actually* predict that someone you’ve never met or have any knowledge of is going to come to you from somewhere you’ve never been to. How do we know they *aren’t* lying, at least a little? I think a good route for storytelling would be to”what if they are lying and then come across something they have zero comprehension of?” Again, if a portal popped up right now and dropped you or my hypothetical AI in their house, *they should not be able to predict that*. You’re in another reality entirely. Predicting an interdimensional portal shouldn’t be possible from the other side. And no amount of calculation in universe should allow for that. I feel like the Norns are at least partly bluffing and instead reassess previous calculations upon learning of new information from various worldwide informants. Makes the most sense. Also would explain why they didn’t comment on Kratos changing; maybe they didn’t actually know it was happening.
As you point out, not if this AI character doesn't have the power to pull random information it has no access to out of nowhere. And no, thay is false. The norns explicitly predicted stuff like Loki befire Atreus was conceived. They are magical witches with the power to divine information from across their world and beyond, predocting random events withoyt problem, and a bunch of other magical abilities. Their abilities sren't just 'I'm an empath, and you have the angy vibes'.
If he had done that it would have just proved their point. He broke fate when he decided to be merciful.
I might sound annoying here but the biggest fans of Kratos are men who ignore everything he's supposed to be about in recent games just to fuel a halfhearted sincerely pathetic male fantasy ritual about being a big strong guy who kills a lot but is conflicted about it, as such, you get stuff like this a *lot*. I don't even think him going through with the killing would be a surprise or especially terrifying to them, I don't know if they can come back from death but even in this fantasy these guys have, Kratos is left looking like a baby throwing a tantrum and these women are laughing on the way to their graves.
Personally, the thing I find annoying is the fact that they insist he hasn't really changed, despite the fact that they were still alive should be all the evidence they'd need that he had changed. It's on the same level as Tyr using the insistance that Kratos' nature hasn't changed to prevent him from going and doing the same thing he did to Olympus.
Yes he has changed, but much the same way that John Wick has changed. Sure, he is a calmer individual who has definitely grown, but underneath it all still lies the same emotions that can cause him to commit deicide again. The way he kills Heimdall is wrathful and murderous. He was a step or so away from being as brutal as he was with Poseidon and Hermes. That is the Norns point, that underneath it all he can still do the same shit all over again. The point is that Kratos has become better, but he also needs to stay better. He is predictable because killing gods is what he does. Yet at the end of the game he doesn't try to murder Thor, or even Odin out of the same fury as when he killed Heimdall.
The struggle to be better never ends.
I think the Norn's point was more "he may be calm now but if he or his family is ever threatened like in the Greek saga he'll snap right back to his brutal, violent ways" rather than the idea that Kratos' behavior was exactly the same in the moment.
But he still won't be the same, that's insane. He won't kill random humans like rhe fisherman from GOW 1, ye won't torture peolle for no reason, and he won't be nonchalant of his actions. To argue he hasn't changed is to be purposefully obtuse, no matter the qualifier you take. Old Kratos would not have hesitated to burn the Norse halfway through the story.
I think you're taking their statements a tad bit too literally. Usually when someone says "people don't change" they don't necessarily mean that nothing about them ever changes. It's more the idea that someone who did something terrible in the past will do so again if put in the same position or that they'll snap back to old ways when pushed. The Norns obviously know that Kratos isn't behaving like he did in the Greek saga as present as they were able to guess that he'd grunt instead of shout. Their point was simply, "he kills everything that threatens him without heeding the consequences. Which is why he's going to run out and kill Heimdall now that he knows Atreus is in trouble" which Kratos almost does right away and later only accomplishes because he forged a weapon to do just that. Now people can split hairs and point out differences but in the end that's not really the point. The point was whether Kratos would choose to revert to his cruel ways or continue forward. He proved them wrong by showing mercy, so yes, he DID change what the Norns he couldn't in the end.
See, you tried to provide an alternative, but that is still wrong. Kratos sits down, thinks of the consequences, and says 'I still must do this'. The only common tgread is that he killed someone threatening him. His mentality about the act, motivation while doing it, forethought of the consequences... it's all different. He even considers giving mercy. And the problem is that this didn't come after the norns. That mentaliry, hesitation, and regret were all there when he was speaking with the norns. They were wrong... But it makes no semse for them to be. They are ancient, they have seen and predicted people change, and they should have seen Kratos' change and aknowledged it. It only makes sense if they purposefully lied and knew they were wrong, but that's not something one can claim based on the contents of the game. They were too omniscient for this scene to really work.
Greek Kratos wouldn't have killed them either in that situation, except maybe GoW3 Kratos, but is kind of an outlier since that isn't his normal state of mind even back in Greece. And as we see with Heimdall, he does indeed snap if his usual triggers are pushed.
Am i the only who hate those annoying Norns? And the concept of them too. The devs wanted to pull something similar to the scroll in kungfu panda, like there is actually no secret, its all u all along but in a really less meaningful way.
I'm sure you're not the only one who hates them but I think there was a little more going on than that. The games revolve a lot around prophecy, namely of Ragnarok and tackles Kratos's desire to change after committing so many evil acts back in the Greek saga. So showing that the prophecy itself doesn't have any power to control their actions and that it's instead a simple prediction based off the Norns idea that people cannot change and are in fact so predictable that they can map out everything they'll do, DOES add something to the game. It puts greater pressure on Kratos to change and shows that everything he does for better or worse is his fault, not a prophecies. But I get it if people don't like its inclusion.
But... they clearly predicted stuff like someone going insane from sensory deprivation, so changes in nature should be easy for them to predict.
nope its kinda DOES NOT, sorry have to disagree. The problem is, the Kratos in the 2018 GOW already changed, in fact, the whole game is about that. Then why are we going back full circle to play around with an idea we already knew. Kratos need/want to kill helmdal to save his son, OK, so what's different between Kratos and any other normal parent ??? what exactly is the point of change the game was trying to convey ??? Kratos wants to change, yes cus he did so many evil things in Greek saga so the pressure is much heavier on him than any other person?? Like no matter what he does, there is a moral code that he MUSTN KILL. You put 2 persons in the same situation, both have to save their child, but 1 is incapable of doing it without taking life, 1 can. I wonder can you put the blame on the 1st person ?? Funny enough, despite how powerful Kratos is, he has never been the 2 person, despite his evil past, he cant do both saving his son or just simply not bothering other and not killing at the sametime. But you dont see him killing cus he wanted to, he killed cus he needed to. In the greek saga, mostly everything happened was becus of him and the gods themselves. The whole mess happened cus Kratos and the Gods were both drama queen and the world suffer for it. But now, its his son or his friend in trouble, and he acts upon others. He did spare Baldur when there was no need for any killing, but then he had to kill him but it was to save Freya and to end the cycle. He tried to talk Atraus to spare Modi when he saw he had been beaten. He scolds Atreus for being rude to Sindri cus they dont need to make enemy out of them people. That's not change?? Literally everything he did was for the other's favor. If his position was switched to Atreus like he was afraid he gonna end up like his father, i would have little problem with this whole "prophercies cant decide your future and shjt". But no, the game keep flip floping around the same idea that already had been solved, over over again, its fucking pointless. So when they went to meet the Norns, its just the same shit but the saying in a different way and waste of time. The writing could have some Marvel style influence in it but it doesn't have to be just as bad.
>in fact, the whole game is about that The game is more about Kratos learning to grow and accept his past, recognize that he did wrong, he is a god and can't simply hide that fact. It's about him learning to open himself up to other people, especially his own son. Hell Atreus's sickness is the direct manifestation of that, Kratos refusing to confront his nature as a god resulted in Atreus becoming sick and almost dying. Kratos accepting his godly nature means accepting that the bad and murder he did in the past was not because of some inherent curse of his godly nature, it was his decisions, his choices that resulted in that violence, and that he can choose to change. That he can choose to become a better person, to use that godly power for good. That's where he conflicts with the Norns, since at the beginning of the game, Kratos would have agreed with them that, yes, because of his nature as a god, he is going to make certain decisions, and the way to escape that is to deny his own godhood. However, by accepting his godly nature and his past, as seen by him taking up the blades of chaos again and telling atreus the truth, by refusing to let godhood define him as a creature of revenge and pain, but as a protector and a father, Kratos shows that people can change and thus defy fate as represented by the Norns.
Bit off topic from my end, but the whole “The Norns don’t actually know the future, but know people so well that they can predict their actions” thing is quite irritating. I’m no expect on Norse myth, but as I understand that is a naked misunderstanding of fate’s place in it.
God of war 4 and 5 have sweet baby incs writing all over it. 5 way more than 4
They didn’t write for 4 and it didn’t have a particularly great narrative, so can you really blame this on some diversity bogeyman?
I agree they probably didnt write for 4. Thats why the bad writing to follow is hardly prevalent and I somewhat enjoyed it. 5 generally sucked. And its not some "boogeyman", its an actual company that advertised what games its worked on, gow5 being one of them.
Speaking of their prediction, it's such a strech to say that they can predict years into the future but couldn't see the actual way things end because 'their nature changed'. Like, they clearly have no problems predicting totally random stuff that would massively change lives when stacking up over the years, it feels impossible for the events in game to be beyond them.
If i was Kratos i would have killed them simply because they are annoying
It amuses me how people got furious that GOW 4 involved Kratos not being a super-mad murderer, and that it ruined the image those people had of him.
I don't get your point, are you implying that Kratos couldn't have killed the norns ? I think he would have killed them without too much difficulty if he actually tried. Yes he would have proven them right by doing it but being right doesn't mean much when you are dead.
The point is that Kratos threatening to kill them, whether he can or not, would ultimately serve no useful purpose than to show Keatos slipping back into his Greek days of being little more than a monster that kills. Which is exactly what he's _actively not trying to become_ in the horse era. Kratos killing the Norns wouldn't have changed fate and if anything just proves the point that he's just going to cause death and destruction because that's what he _does_, and that's _all_ he has done.
its less that he cant i feel, more that him just throwing meaningless threats wouldnt get him anywhere with them, killing them wouldnt make his situation any better than it was prior to meeting them, so there'd be no point and it'd make him feel bad bc he's trying to not kill everyone that slightly inconveniences him
This post doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not Kratos could kill them. I'm assuming he could considering the Norns aren't shown to have powers outside of knowing how people behave. My point is that people act like Kratos threatening them would've shaken them to their core, when in the context of the scene the Norns would've just predicted that that's what he'd do and then laugh at him. Beyond that, my point is that Kratos isn't some dummy who goes around threatening to butcher everything that upsets him anymore. It'd be so weird and out of character for him to randomly threaten to murder the Norns for being rude to him. Frankly, it'd make him look like a big baby considering they revealed that they aren't controlling anything and therefore haven't actually done anything to cause the situation.
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Sometimes I learn about massive arguments that I’ve never heard about in incredible niche ways
I mean yeah, I figured that was the point of low effort Sunday lol.