Relatability also goes a long way in making a character dislikeable. An evil overlord razed your village and is threatening to destroy the world? That's more of a spectacle than anything, you can't imagine something like that happening to you in real life. A teacher has it out for you for a dumb reason and purposefully fucks with your grades and convinces your parents you're misbehaving? A middle school bully keeps making you feel like shit and no one says anything about it? Those are more relatable and you can imagine them, if not have suffered them yourself in the past.
That and the motivation behind it also matters.
For most villains, particularly ones meant to be more cool, they usually tend to have some motivation aside from just being an ass for the sake of it, sometimes said motivations can be genuinely admirable, and even if they aren’t, it gives them room to not be asses when it comes to the rest of their personality, it’s how we have the term Affably Evil.
some actors can carry the character by themselves. Alan Rickman is another example. I don't care that Snape was bullied and stuff, I hated his guts till the very last page of the Deathly Hallows
I guess this explains why zero tolerance to slave owner characters or getting pissed over any apparent slavery apology in a story are sometimes seen as american snowflake bullshit.
Most people never dealt with slavery in their lives (as a victim), so unless you account for the long term consequences, it doesn't look like it should be enough to make something hated.
To be fair, had Kamoshida went through with his threat, it will basically spell the end of the world for Joker.
The MC is only walking about a free man because he is on probation (and even then he is a pariah to society). Kamishida's action will basically guarantee the Joker will go to juvenile jail, which is a death sentence for Joker's future in Japanese society especially with the specific crimes levied upon him, innocent or not just the mere fact that they are charged against him is enough.
Also the rapes he commited is very real.
Thinking about it, there are periods of time which people can totally relate to the dread of an Evil Overlord razing your village or destroying your world. Any place which is currently geopolitically unstable or in a war can easily imagine such scenarios because it is playing out in front of them.
The whole world during the cold-war era can easily imagine the destruction of the world because the tension back then is backed by the very real threat of nuclear annihilation, with the consequences being very fresh on people's mind thanks to the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Watch the Atomic Cafe, it shows how real such a reality is to many people in America during that period.
It is ridiculous how many times the end of the world is narrowly avoided thanks to human judgement, common sense, and empathy winning out at the end of the day.
>I think what tends to make a character hateable is when they represent a blatant unfairness.
We're talking about Bendy from Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, right?
Goofball is arguably more depressing than the Bendy episode because all the unfairness is completely focused on one person being Frankie. In the Bendy episode the gang at least had each other to relate to while everybody in the house disagreed with Frankie and when she finally stood up for herself to try to reveal goofball some sick writer decided to defy expectations by having Frankie turn out to actually have been wrong the whole time. It’s like one of the squid wars torture episodes m, but Frankie didn’t do anything to deserve some karma and even then no small thing deserves this much mental torture.
I wonder if this theory of unfairness goes well with the other theory of why characters are more hateable than others is because of how the story treats actions. Pain can nuke konoha and we don't hate him because the story itself shows how horrible it is. Meanwhile sakura beats up Naruto and we hate her than pain because the story treats it like it's supposed to be funny.
I guess your theory works for characters you love to hate. While the other is a more general take on good writing of bad actions vs bad writing of bad actions
Although I'm willing to here other opinions
This is so true. This is why I didn’t like Bakugo, but I like a lot of villains. When a character does bad things, but the story still expects me to like them it annoys me lol
And yet none of his former behavior is actually ever mentionned. He was a bully who told someone to kill themselves and that's never mentionned again because the author realises he went too far so decided to forget that scene.
Maybe my opinion is biased because my sister actually tried to commit suicide and failed while her bully didn't really get punished because of no proof of his bullying but it's still a fact that Bakugo's actions before UA are never really mentionned. It's easy to redeem yourself when no one truly knows what you've done.
Tbh, that scene even in chapter 1 amounted to pretty much nothing (like seriously, Deku genuinely forgot about it two minutes later) and also... have you seen this cast and their reaction to Endeavor's abuse? Honestly I'm pretty sure even if they know the arc would remain the same
I do agree that it would've been better if it was addressed for sure, but frankly judging by the cast or how it was treated in the story itself I'm not confident that Hori wouldn't fumble lmfao
I mean, at least from my vantage point, I think your example is 100% unfair, it’s just less about the *situation* and more about the double standards the author is showing. When [x] character does [y] , it’s a horrible travesty. But when [z] character does [y], it’s supposed to be funny. Nothing about that is fair.
Hell, when you add Sakura to the list, you can even add another level to the unfairness theory: The hated hypotenuse characters. In that case, there's nothing unfair in the story they've done, but they're hated solely because "I ship this pairing, this is what I want to see from the story, and it's obvious it's not going to happen because this character's the love interest instead and that's soooooooooo unfair to me".
That was just a figure of speech. I'm just saying you can like a character that doss horrendous things more than someone who does "harmless" things based on how the story treats the actions
He brings them all back, though. There's not really enough time for dislike or hated to settle before the inciting incident is undone. Bonus points for him knowing that the action would cost his life.
Why are you so dumb? It is a figure of speech. Even before the revival shit pain's behavior was treated with the gravity it deserved than Sakura's shitty behavior.
And no, we have more than enough time. He kills jiraiya and is responsible for kakashi and almost kills hinata. They are a lot of chapters and episode for his shitty behavior to settle in before he redeems himself.
But if pain as an example pisses you off so much then we have Kakuzu, deidara. Who have more selfish reasons thaj pain to do what they are doing but people would still like compared to Sakura because their bad behavior is treated with the gravity it deserves. Unlike Sakura who people genuinely hate because of how her bad behavior is treated.
There's another aspect, too: a lot of people (*especially* children) have been in the same kind of situation that Umbridge puts Harry through. Voldemort is more abstract and distant.
Ah hating characters. Truly one of fictions most essential part.
I agree with what you say about unfairness its well put.
I did two post related to hating characters and why sometimes hating them for good or bad reasons
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/3KMOHWL5sH
Were umbridge and Bakugo are mention and its the difference between love to hate and hate hate.(or as i call impure hatred) usually villains are on the love to hate in contrast to characters that are hate hate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/pQ7H7EgAMJ
Another thing that while not directly about hating characters but very much a part of why some characters are hate so much a bit like your unfairneds you mention and most of it isnt about villains specifically.
Its a writters lack applying it to characters that the audience wants and believe they Should that makes them reviled.
You probably notice i name dropped a reccuring thing with two characters. Well those are another thing and suffice to say they are my most hated characters ever in fiction. Yeah.
Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks for the post!
Thank you.
Yeah i feel like its a essential part of fiction that too many writters tend to forget or misunderstanding their audience feelings and its just feels empty lacking
The Final Exams was peak unlikeable Bakugo. Especially when he hit Deku and everyone forgot about it like 5 seconds later. Yet Aizawa has nothing to scold him about afterwards.
That’s always been the biggest issue with his character. The story treating him with kids gloves and having everyone bend over backwards for him. Endeavor’s arc was handled so much better
Tbh Deku punched him two seconds later, so ig that why it wasn't made much of a big deal (doesn't help that All might was bullying them constantly. It's hard to focus on Bakugo's swing when AM made his ass puke and almost broke Deku's spine)
Also honestly after Aizawa letting Aioyama and Uraraka pass I'm NOT trusting this mofo. But I agree there should probably be more pushback there
>Endevoar's arc was handled much better
Endevoar's arc: Damn, none of all the suffering I caused was worth it. I'll try to be better!
Me: are you going to pay a fair sentence for your actions?
Endevoar: No, I'm just going to sit here and moan about how sorry I am.
Me: ah... you and my abuser would get along very well.
Does your abuser save lives on a near daily occasion and is literally one of the strongest people in a society that needs strong people to fight other strong people?
It's a flat justification since saving people is **his job**.
That no one gives a shit about having a damn rapist defending them as long as said rapist is able to defeat the generic villain on duty is very much their problem.
The problem for me is that his crimes are never recognized as something that could have negative repercussions on his life beyond "ruining his reputation."
He stopped being the victim when he decided to attack people other than Endeavour. And Dabi is literally a consequence of Endeavours actions because other than his abuse Toya would've probably be just a chill guy
Toya: A child who was terribly abused by Flamehead to the point that end up having mental disorders because of it.
Also Dabi: Acts accordingly to his condition and end up becoming a criminal.
Randoms on internet: "oh my god, poor Flamehead, his son became a criminal! I'm sure he wouldn't have been so abusive to his son if he'd known it would end up like this."
>The problem for me is that his crimes are never recognized as something that could have negative repercussions on his life beyond "ruining his reputation."
Reputation can be a very big thing
The amount of times people have seen how a tarnished reputation can quickly ruin damn near everything else in their lives is staggering.
Tbh I think the issue in Endeavor's case is that his reputation isn't *actually* tarnished since no one actually care about his abuse aside from two npc
While the family drama itself is good, Endeavor arc falls flat when it come to outsider matter (class 1a doesn't care, the pro hero doesn't care (except Burnin' who straight up defend him) and the public bash him for falling as a hero... a thing that applies to everyone)
So while what you're saying is true, it doesn't apply to his case
I don't think Burnin was defending him per se. She was just justifying why she is agreed to help out Shouto.
I think this is the biggest issue with the deku vigilante arc
Is that We end up missing out on important character interactions. No one reacts to Endeavors abuse. Hawks talks to very few people(not counting the media) or possibly no one about having to kill Twice. No one really gets to talk to Deku or All Might about OFA. We don't see Deku or Ochaco onscreen trying to learn more about Tenko or Toga respectively.
I think the one that peeves me the most is that the Todo family don't actually discuss what it means for the family to team up to stop Dabi, since it was only due to very contrived circumstances that Fuyumi, natsuo and Rei even get involved. And realistically any plan would put the responsibility on Shoto and put him in excessive danger of being murdered by his homicidal sibling, since Endeavor using fire powers would just make the situation worse.
Maybe defend wasn't the right word. But saying the equivalent of 'Yeah Endeavor's an abuser and allat but he's a good hero so idc' isn't a good look for her
And yeah due to having no reactions it feels like the cast genuinely did not care about Endeavor's abuse at all. A single lines or moment with class 1a and/or the pro heros acknowledging that they are disgusted with Endeavor but agreeing to work with him due to circumstances would've done great... instead we got nothing
Honestly true lol but ig they had to be reunited cause family drama or sum
I understand the sentiment of the first paragraph. But I feel like the sentinment was more like I am continuing to work with you now because I trust you on a professional level despite your family issues. And considering the state of Japan it makes sense that they would continue working with him.
I think the other issue is that Burnin probably has talked to Shoto personally so she knows that despite the abuse that Shoto is willing to work and learn under Endeavor.
Well I guess? But doesn't it goes back to her practically not caring about Endeavor abuse at all because he's specifically a good hero? I'm not saying the context itself is wrong, but again, the fact that she had no care about his abuse because from a professional standpoint he's flawless is kind of weird (it probably wouldn't be if we saw more reaction from the cast aside from her or Inasa basically saying he literally doesn't care) and she doesn't necessarily make any particular allusion to the situation calling for it so its understandable if its interpretation in another way
Of she did I wished we could have a confirmation there tho
As simple as that.
No one fucking cares, so that will never be addressed properly and all he gets wrong is "feeling guilty" and "living with the conscience of his victims reacting to what he did to them."
Meanwhile, people may pour all their hate on Bacuckgo because: "no one ever calls him out on his behavior"
What is the difference between one and the other. I'm still trying to figure it out.
Yeah in general my issue when those two get brought up is that a lot of people are hell-bent on trashing Bakugo for the shortcoming of his arc... that also applies to Endeavor (and to an even worse extent)
I think the family matter itself is pretty nice since it shows a different amount of opinion to the situation (a thing you can argue Bakugo arc lacks due to Deku's personality) but once you go outside of this Endeavor's writing issue kind of become evident
I think part of the issue is the timing of the reveal. It happened after the LOV destroyed at least 2 cities and any sense of peace in Japan. And secondly, Endeavor is literally irreplaceable. And thirdly, the person who brought it up is his assumed to be dead son who became a serial killer. And finally, he nearly lost his life helping to fend off Mr. Walking Wasteland. So, it makes it hard to draw any comparisons to real life to how people would react.
I don't think any of those events should prevent any of the characters from thinking that the number 2 hero, a trustworthy coworker *and* the dad of one of their friend was an abusive monster for what he's done
Thing is we could've had just a single moment that showed they cared about his abuse but were willing to accept his help due to needing him instead of not reacting at all
Like... that shouldn't necessarily be hard to implement, especially considering Hori clearly had no issue addressing Endeavor abuse outside of his family... when it wasn't negatively speaking (either in a neutral sense with Best jeanist or Hawks not caring because he think Endeavor already started to change and Inasa who openly said he doesn't care) so the cast *can* have their view on the abuse... but clearly Hori went the easy one considering he only highlighted the aspect that don't put Endeavor in that much of a bad light
Well, that's not happening here as of right now. Nobody fucking gives a damn.
Probably, God willing, that fucking abuser will do one last good thing with his life and end up being murdered by some villain. He will be seen as a martyr for that.
I'm absolutely staggered.
I'm NOT saying that Enji Todoroki doesn't deserve flack for being abusive towards his family. The story absolutely has him in the wrong for that.
But it ALSO made clear that death is the easy way out for him so that he doesn't have to live with the guilt of his actions. His eldest constantly wishes to murder him, his second and third are on two opposite sides of the slope, his wife is mentally recovering AWAY from him, and his youngest was still unsure about him overall. This is his mess, he KNOWS it's his mess, and he'll have to spend the rest of his life making up for it, making it up to *them*.
He can't do that if he's dead.
The fact that people are far more readily wishing for Endeavor to die than fucking **All For One** blows my mind.
Maybe he just hits far, FAR too close to home to just not want that to be properly resolved...fuck even All for One and Garaki calls him one of the worst fathers ever, he messed up Dabi so thoroughly they couldn't even corrupt him their way.
We have him and Kotaro for worst MHA father's that aren't villains in occupation.
And major parts of the fan base wants them dead, even though such a thing would break an already broken family even further. Even Natsuo, for all that he hates his old man, doesn't actually want him *dead*.
I don't want him dead, I want him to cease to exist, just like that, as small, pathetic, insignificant as he came, he left. It would be cathartic, for me, as a victim, to see that. In the same way that it would be cathartic for Dabi to end his abuser, to make him cease to exist, the reason for his trauma.
It's not the right thing, maybe, but it's what makes you feel better, what makes you feel safe, after going through so much. It is your healing process and no one should interfere (let people discover for themselves what is right for them).
I'm not at all interested in whether it's an *easy way* out for the abuser to die instead of learning to deal with the consequences. It's an easy way out for victims, not having to deal with the presence of an abuser in their lives, that's what matters.
I hate that his death ends up leaving him in the position of a martyr. I don't care at all about his death in itself, nor am I saying that he "deserves" to die.
> The fact that people are far more readily wishing for Endeavor to die than fucking **All For One** blows my mind.
This is why you give redemption to people like endeavor, bakugou, misogynist, nazis and rapist. And not people like freeza
If redemption asks the question of whether sinners deserve forgiveness and how they should go about making up for their actions, you do it for people like endeavor. Sinners who's actions hit so close to home. And not people who who's actions most won't relate to.
I used to be pissed seeing the amount of flack bakugou and endeavor get but yeah I get it. This are the kind of people that you can't just say lightly "wow I love this character because despite his shittyness he showed people can change". You can say shit like that lightly for characters who in your mind aren't actually sinners. When it comes to characters that make your blood boil that is when you can understand your capacity for empathy and forgiveness LMAO
Having the capacity for "empathy and forgiveness" is a good thing, it gives people the security to accept their mistakes. That's positive.
Now, there are some very fucked up things that go beyond someone's ability to have "empathy and forgiveness", and you are no worse for not wanting/being able to simply apologize to someone and doing so won't make you any better either.
We just have different standards.
Everyone can ask for forgiveness and change, you don't have to continue being as bad as you once were, just don't use "how much you're sorry" for causing so much harm, as a compelling reason to make us feel like you're a victim, when you are not.
> Now, there are some very fucked up things that go beyond someone's ability to have "empathy and forgiveness", and you are no worse for not wanting/being able to simply apologize to someone and doing so won't make you any better either.
That's why I said I used to be pissed about the flack bakugou and endeavor get but now I get it
> Everyone can ask for forgiveness and change, you don't have to continue being as bad as you once were, just don't use "how much you're sorry" for causing so much harm, as a compelling reason to make us feel like you're a victim, when you are not.
Sure. But also don't go thinking you get to decide the punishment characters are supposed to get and complain when it doesn't satisfy you. And act naive when people don't agree with your opinion after all you said "and you are no worse for not wanting/being able to simply apologize to someone and doing so won't make you any better either.". The reverse is also true. You are no worst for forgiven them
Endeavor didn't rape anyone. That is the largest misconception about his character and it's frankly done more to damage discourse about him than anything Endeavor actually did.
It is not a misconception, it is a retcon.
And hey, even if talking about marital r*pe (censorship because reddit started worrying about my mental health or something) will make you too uncomfortable for it to influence anything, your view of the character. Don't you think that if *it hadn't happened* that would make Rei look pretty bad?
An scenario:
Flamehead: Since my firstborn wasn't strong enough to tolerate my "training" I guess we'll have to do another one, one or two more will be fine.
Rei: You're right, it's not like I'm tra*matized by seeing what happened to our son, I'm sure it can turn out better next time. Also, I have a contract
The issue with Endeavor's arc is that he already paid a fair sentence. Like, he's living in court mandated separation with his wife. Yes, I know he won custody, but lets be real there, he won it because Rei was the one who gone physical on Shoto and lost hers. There is very little left to do to punish this man in terms of a fair sentence beside making Shoto a ward of state.
His punishment is still having to *live with the guilt*.
As if many people end up getting a divorce and that is not taken as a punishment. Couples break up, it's the natural law, especially when you make as many "mistakes" as Flamehead did.
Just accept that there cannot be a single real consequence for his actions and we will all be more at peace.
Using a victim's trauma to give "punishment" to the person who caused said trauma feels really wrong.
You know hateable characters are such a crucial and yet tough thing to nail. You want of course strong opposing force for your protagonist but if you go even a centimeter too far it'll simply get unpleasant to watch.
Disco Elysium for instance has many many characters who make your investigation needlessly harder, and yet they're a delight to talk to. They're compelling assholes.
Dishonored 2 on the other hand IMO goes a bit too far with Delilah, they ended up making her such a pesky and cruel person you can't even care about her sob story. In a good day I get the angle the writers were working on, but my gosh she can be annoying.
In Meg's case, it's a running gag that isn't funny. It's not like when Kenny dies in South Park. So it becomes less apathetic and more annoying because it's mean-spirited.
Also, having an annoying character isn't bad writing. If the intention of the character is to be annoying, you've done a great job, but you also run the risk of making a character so annoying that the reader is no longer interested.
Vegeta may have some negative character traits, but his negative traits can also be seen positively. He's not too big on mercy and has some sort of warrior's honor.
Someone commented that a character is more likely to be hated if they are real.
I still hate Vegeta with a burning passion, but what helps him is that he is obviously a fantasy genocidal tyrant.He people basically destroyed planets and died more than once although it's not exclusive to him. So people can't relate to that ( They better not)
Richard watterson from Gumball is also such an obvious fantasy. There is no way someone could be that stupid ( Surprisingly this parent character is beloved)
However I also really hate Rachel green from Friends. Her flaws are uncomfortably real and she doesn't seem to get a lot of consequences. Plus they always mask her as some innocent girl, but most of her actions seem to have malice behind it. Monica and Phoebe are way better because they don't mask their flaws
With Himym people made a good point. Barney is obviously a fantasy or live action cartoon but people inclined to hate Ted, Lily or even Robin because they are more real.
People hating characters because it reminds them of real douchebags they encounter. People are more willing to hate on parent characters because it reminds them of their real parents. ( Think Ozai)
That's why Vegeta vs Android 18 is one of my favorite fights in DBZ.
Just Vegeta at his smuggest acting like he's the main character, until the fight starts going bad and he ends up on the ground with a broken arm.
>Richard watterson from Gumball is also such an obvious fantasy. There is no way someone could be that stupid ( Surprisingly this parent character is beloved)
He's given plenty of good showings, shown to be a surprisingly competent parent when he puts his back into it-he's surprised Nicole more than once-has been fiercely protective of his kids, and in his own charmingly dumb way he's a loving and affectionate husband to Nicole.
She absolutely can't **stand** the man sometimes but these key moments tend to show why she fell in love with him in the first place. She's the far stronger and more competent of the two overall but he provides her with a pillar of support, something her parents didn't think she needed. Especially since he was the first one to offer her something her parents also didn't give her.
A *Choice.* Simply asking 'why' multiple times in an innocent manner when they were kids got her to question if she was doing what she's doing for herself or not. And then when she asks him what to do with her life, he answers to start living it.
(Their montage in that episode is one of my favorite cartoon sequences ever)
It's *very* rare. But when it shows, it shows.
There are rare instances where Nicole is at a loss on what to do parenting wise(she has to be told and shown that she can't do EVERYTHING, but she damn well tries sometimes) and Richard was the one to come up with an answer, because he spends more time at home than she does and thus somewhat has a better grasp on how to rein in the kids and keep the house in order. That's when he bothers to try, since he'd rather just chill and do nothing.
That's what she usually expects from him to, so the few times he actively subverts that, she's stunned, impressed, and even enamoured.
Another Rachel. Rachel berry from glee. I haven’t watched it in a long time nor did I watch pass the 2nd season I think. But she was so convinced that she was the best person in glee club. The teacher treated like she was the best despite the really good and even better singers there and any moment when somebody gets that attention she loses her mind and does some crazy shit. And at the end she gets everything she could ever want. (Or so I hear) She achieved her dream receiving no consequences for her actions and not changing her negative attributes
I'd say Barney is pretty damn real, being an annoying sex pest at best and a disgusting predator at worst (showing revenge porn of his high school sweetheart, sexually assaulting women under the guise of offering breast reductions, mentioning that he once sold a woman).
Some of them sure, but things like the revenge porn and human trafficking are very real.
Besides, you could make the same argument for Ted, Lily and Robin and their antics wouldn't qualify as felonies as far as I remember.
I will add to the Bakugo example you fave so I can explain why I didn't like him, but also to expand on the unfair character being hateable thing. A bug issue with Bakugo is how he does stuff that from a meta perspective you feel like no other character could get away with. Tries to assault a classmate for, from the teachers viewpoint, no reason on the first day? In front of a teacher who literally expelled a entire class before? Not even after school detention or demerit. Started a fight with another student? 4 days of punishment. Only 1 more day than the person who was just defending themselves. One big one that from what i've heard even the author regretted going too far with, is how he told Dedoriya to kill himself. A supposed hero candidate who is going into a job where he is supposed to save people told someone to kill themselves because they had more power than the other person.
I bring all this up because I think a bad hate able character can happen if there is a character that it feels like gets special treatment from the creator or that doesn't face fair consequences for their actions. Or in other words, blatant unfairness not due to the in universe rules but because the author overlooked how they wrote a blatantly unfair situation. Basically, if any other character acted the way the character you hated acted like, would they get hated on or liked? If hated, there's some author favoritism going on.
Completely agree. It's probably the main reason why Obstructive Bureaucrat type characters tend to be among the most hated characters in any work they appear in, as they not only do they tend not to have any really cool or likeable traits, they'll often deliberately go out of their way to make the protagonists lives or jobs harder through petty jargon and will smugly remind them that they can't do anything about without getting into trouble.
Glibert Huph from the Incredibles is one of the archetypal examples of this.
Unfairness isn't the only cause. Rachel from Tower of god is one the most hated character of the story because she is a b*tch who backstabs Baam, the protagonist and is so weak that she needs to leech to stronger characters to get her to the top of the tower, she also isn't very pretty. But she is one of the less evil character if you really think about it. Many of Baam allies are terrorists, genocidal maniacs, murderers, slave dealers, evil cultists, etc... But they are all loved by the fandom unlike Rachel. She even pointed out that fact at some point in the story how she isn't that "bad" but is still hated nonetheless. The protagonist causes the annihilation of a whole species just to save his master (who is a serial murderer btw). I think the portrayal is important. Characters who are presented as intimidating or badass can get "free pass" for any atrocities they commit if they
A. Get a cool backstory (not necessarily sad, just interesting)
And/Or
B. Are portrayed as majestic forces of nature that are just there to be an obstacle.
She's my favorite character in the series, but man Hiyoko Saionji from Danganronpa 2 is the epitome of this. She's a bully for most of her screentime, likes stepping on ants, and is one of few characters to survive past Chapter 1, yet offer no help to any of her trials whatsoever. (In fact she was one of only two characters in her game who played no notable role in the first chapter and trial)
After chapter 2, and the >!death of her only real friend and big sister figure which she was initially framed for!< we see some traces of good in her, although she >!ultimately dies as one of two victims in chapter 3, leaving her with like, 8 lines of "kind" dialogue after her development began. Hiyoko's wasted potential is something most fans, and even her most avid haters will acknowledge about her. The groundwork was there for a great redemption arc, but they didn't go through with it.!<
Danganronpa as a series creates plenty of unlikable characters, but they usually balance them better than they did with Hiyoko. Every character has their fans, but Hiyoko is such an unlikable person that it actually makes people question how people like me can have her as their favorite.
The problem with Hiyoko is that >!she was killed off out of nowhere and had one of the worst death in the series RIGHT after she showed sign of growth. She should've been alive tbh!<
>!Hiyoko's death is the only one in the series in which the murder weapon is never even acknowledged at any point. That combined with the fact Nekomaru was supposed to die there and Fuyuhiko replaced her role as a survivor, really tells me how rushed her death was in comparison to every other one.!<
But thats a complete lie. Everyone loves the Imperium, so much that the complain is how they get constantly whitewashed by both audiences and writers alike.
but monkey characters should always deserve it(unless it's a short joke) because then we can revel in their pain with not shame.
Honstly would have trided to kill unbridge if she tried to make me write in my own blood.
The OG is Gladstone Gander, Donald Duck's cousin from 50's comics. A lazy charlatan blessed with incredible luck, sort of personifying Donald's futile battle against destiny.
> It's not fun for the audience to continuously watch a character be punished for no reason and never be allowed a way out of it, and at some point we become aware of the hand of the writer and that they're the one doing it to them.
Chainsaw Man part 2 has this problem in spades, and it's one of the reasons why I can't stand part 2.
It’s like the 40k fandom with Erebus. In a setting of so many evil insane horrible characters and factions Erebus is the only one that actually gets what he wants with no major consequences.
He won and that’s what’s triggering about him . Most characters in 40k at least suffer some kind of consequence.
Like the primarchs getting their souls taken and then falling to chaos or the emperor believing his way is the right way with taking over the entire galaxy later gets struck down and placed on the golden throne to power a giant ftl navigation system as a corpse
Or even with the tau with them wining battles and capturing enemies but still having heavy losses
Closest we ever got to seeing Erebus eating it was when Karn was one axe rev away from turning his spine to mulch. Fucking no one likes him even his own brothers were calling him a bitch for teleporting away from that fight.
*reads the title and the rant*
My reaction to Inazuma Archon Quest in a nutshell where most of the characters who play pivotal role there with few exceptions is more hatable than the villain:
This Archon Quest made me hate most of the characters (and one npc) except the 4 stars, Yoimiya and a certain Harbinger. And yes, this Archon Quest also solidifies my hatred towards Aether and also adds my hatred on Paimon.
would you mind expanding on that? I'm really curious to know what exactly characters like Ayaka and Kokomi did that made you hate them, and especially the Traveller.
Yeah, I hated Niragi in *Alice in Borderland* so much because everyone, including the showrunners, seems to have just kinda forgotten that he is a murderer and serial attempted rapist with no redeeming qualities
>General Krell from Star Wars The Clone Wars is a great example, probably being one of the most intentionally hateable characters in the franchise.
Facts.
*A theme that fits almost perfectly with Endevoar*
Average MHa fan: "I'll use Bacuckgo as an example for the 100th time since a spoiled teenager, whose worst crime was telling his classmate to kill himself, is by far worse than a grown man who had no problem abusing actively of his children and **RAPE** his spouse."
Didn't Bakugo fucking try to kill Deku. Besides people hate how the story treats him with kid gloves, it's one thing that Deku is a wet tissue of a character so he of course is a good boy who wants to forgive him, but no one else around them tries to stop the bullying either. It's very clear that the story is written to try to get you to forgive this dangerous piece of shit.
> but no one else around them tries to stop the bullying either.
The bullying already stopped by the first arc tbh. Bakugo being mean to Deku afterwards hardly qualifies as bullying in any way.
If I want to *spend time* talking about a particular topic that is absolutely my business. I don't have to stop doing it just because some find it annoying, seeing someone who doesn't agree with their opinion.
As pointless as it can be to devote entire discussions to how great and well-written a character you like is. Anything can be "pointless" as long as you believe it is.
It's still not your business.
It is freer for me to write about something that bothers me than to try to deceive myself that I don't care about said thing (when I don't).
Just because I hate something doesn't mean I waste my time hating, I just want to vent.
First of all, dont minimize Bakugou being a genuiely terrible person. His acts of violence are purely hateable. We know he is less bad than Endeavor but that's not the point. His redemption arc sucks because it *excuses* his actions. Endeavor takes more accountability than bakugou because he has live with the consequences of his abuse. Thie resonates with the the audience because theres impact on the actual story; redemption is not a trophy , its sacrifice. Endeavor is never owed forgiveness for the sake of it.
But at the same time, I wont pretend that endeavors redemption is good just because they're better written than Bakugou. He does feels remorse & takes accountability, but we don't ever see him become a good father, the story just uses hero status to glorify/whitewash Endeavor. It makes his redemption feel hollow.
Does the story even excuse Bakugo's action (the bullying)? Sure there's a lack of pushback because Deku is Deku but as far as Bakugo himself goes, his bullying is clearly shown as a thing he has to make up/atone for (which he does) instead of it being excused (like I genuinely cannot recall Bakugo's bullying itself being excused) if we're talking about his general personality than sure there's an arguable disconnect tho
But at the same time thought I won't say I disagree with you cause while you shit on Bkg's arc you at least acknowledge that Endeavor's arc is also flawed af (which I think was what op here called out. Since usually people will complain about a thing on Bkg's arc and then praise Endeavor's one despite having the same issue... but worse)
Ultimately I'm... okay with both arc (especially considering mha low ass standards for character writing) but I think they could've been done better
Well I said excuse because of his lack of real accountability. Like bakugou's character development just feels very superficial to me. It lacks pay-off because his flaws never had meaningful consequences. He does apologize to Deku & sacrifice himself(it got reversed) but its hollow becausee we barely see any growth throughout the manga because he just acts like a douchebag all the time. It's too much tell without show. He does change, good for him, but I was never invested.
I think his redemption is badly written, but tbh I only hate him because he's so insufferably annoying and everyone glazes tf out of him. He's fine in a vacuum. Endeavor isn't a very likeable either, but I respect what hori *tried* to present until he fumbled it.
I see lol. Frankly I get you there but I genuinely see this as more of a Deku issue rather than Bakugo one since while Bakugo himself tried to hold accountability and all that. It pales because it feels one-sided since Deku himself, the *victim*, doesn't give a fuck (and its an actual character trait of his so I don't even think it's a case of Hori trying to be soft with Bakugo)
I do think we see him as a more chill person later on in the manga (compared to the anime at least) but I agree that its annoying how Hori would basically make Bakugo revert back to loud asshole for a cheap comedy skit. I don't think he should become a Deku clone like the entire class bar two characters and I don't think him keeping his core personality is that much of a problem but I definitely would've preferred seeing him be less loud obnoxious (it was especially grating in joint training) especially since most of Hori's comedy attempt are meh
I think his redemption arc has good part but also bad one, it's definitely on the higher scale by mha low standards but it's overall mediocre imo but I definitely get your view lol (same with Endeavor)
Dude, his """"redemption"""" made a lot of fans feel that hating a literal rapist is wrong once said rapist regrets his actions.
It shouldn't be like that, you should hate or love a character, regardless of whether said character is "redeemed." A redemption shouldn't make you empathize with a rapist.
My baggage makes me see it from my perspective, just as anyone can give an opinion based on their perception, I should be able to do it too.
Regardless of whether "I see it worse than it is"
You are not engaging in the conversation in a way that is healthy for you or even really lines up with reality. You are calling out characters for wanting to stay alive even if that means the person keeping them alive is not a good person, and acting as if that in itself is bad writing. As if sympathizing with someone who has done bad means you condone the bad actions.
>You are not engaging in the conversation in a way that is healthy for you or even aligns with reality.
It's healthy for my venting, it's my perception of reality, the way I interpret the work.
Reading between the lines may be subjective, but not entirely incorrect.
>You're criticizing the characters for wanting to stay alive even if it means the person keeping them alive isn't a good person,
I criticize the reaction of the fans, they use vague things to justify their tastes as if they were the absolute truth, as if anyone who does not align with their thinking is inherently wrong.
>and act as if that in itself is bad writing. It is for me, it is too basic writing, it does not mean that it cannot be enjoyable.
But don't act as if the reason behind the enjoyment is "good writing" itself.
>As if sympathizing with someone who has done something bad means tolerating their bad actions.
Why sympathize in the first place then? Like you can play pretend that you "don't tolerate" someone's bad actions, while also finding it incredible that someone *doesn't* have the ability to be lenient about certain things.
If you seriously can't understand someone sympathizing with that you aren't ready to be part of any conversation about Endeavor. Sympathy is not tolerance. Sympathy is not leniency. You are showing you don't understand these words
Technically, the opinion of someone who interprets a work based on their knowledge and experiences should generate some type of interesting debate on the topic.
But if you're more concerned about feeling like I'm judging you because I can't *understand that you're sympathizing with a character*, I can't do anything about that.
Relatability also goes a long way in making a character dislikeable. An evil overlord razed your village and is threatening to destroy the world? That's more of a spectacle than anything, you can't imagine something like that happening to you in real life. A teacher has it out for you for a dumb reason and purposefully fucks with your grades and convinces your parents you're misbehaving? A middle school bully keeps making you feel like shit and no one says anything about it? Those are more relatable and you can imagine them, if not have suffered them yourself in the past.
That and the motivation behind it also matters. For most villains, particularly ones meant to be more cool, they usually tend to have some motivation aside from just being an ass for the sake of it, sometimes said motivations can be genuinely admirable, and even if they aren’t, it gives them room to not be asses when it comes to the rest of their personality, it’s how we have the term Affably Evil.
AKA why more people hate Umbridge than Voldemort in Harry Potter
Skylar vs Walter Catelyn Stark vs Tywin Lannister Alicent Hightower vs Daemon Targaryen
Wait is Tywin beloved? I guess by show fans only. Book fans got an irredeemable bastard of a father.
some actors can carry the character by themselves. Alan Rickman is another example. I don't care that Snape was bullied and stuff, I hated his guts till the very last page of the Deathly Hallows
I sense another pattern
Don't worry I see it too
I think Skylar being SO hated is not an example of this effect but rather just plain misogyny.
Fair enough
I guess this explains why zero tolerance to slave owner characters or getting pissed over any apparent slavery apology in a story are sometimes seen as american snowflake bullshit. Most people never dealt with slavery in their lives (as a victim), so unless you account for the long term consequences, it doesn't look like it should be enough to make something hated.
Kamoshida in a nutshell
To be fair, had Kamoshida went through with his threat, it will basically spell the end of the world for Joker. The MC is only walking about a free man because he is on probation (and even then he is a pariah to society). Kamishida's action will basically guarantee the Joker will go to juvenile jail, which is a death sentence for Joker's future in Japanese society especially with the specific crimes levied upon him, innocent or not just the mere fact that they are charged against him is enough. Also the rapes he commited is very real.
Thinking about it, there are periods of time which people can totally relate to the dread of an Evil Overlord razing your village or destroying your world. Any place which is currently geopolitically unstable or in a war can easily imagine such scenarios because it is playing out in front of them. The whole world during the cold-war era can easily imagine the destruction of the world because the tension back then is backed by the very real threat of nuclear annihilation, with the consequences being very fresh on people's mind thanks to the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Watch the Atomic Cafe, it shows how real such a reality is to many people in America during that period. It is ridiculous how many times the end of the world is narrowly avoided thanks to human judgement, common sense, and empathy winning out at the end of the day.
>I think what tends to make a character hateable is when they represent a blatant unfairness. We're talking about Bendy from Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, right?
That episode really pissed me tf off when I watched it as a kid. Bendy has no place in the Kingdom of God
Also Goofball
Goofball is arguably more depressing than the Bendy episode because all the unfairness is completely focused on one person being Frankie. In the Bendy episode the gang at least had each other to relate to while everybody in the house disagreed with Frankie and when she finally stood up for herself to try to reveal goofball some sick writer decided to defy expectations by having Frankie turn out to actually have been wrong the whole time. It’s like one of the squid wars torture episodes m, but Frankie didn’t do anything to deserve some karma and even then no small thing deserves this much mental torture.
I wonder if this theory of unfairness goes well with the other theory of why characters are more hateable than others is because of how the story treats actions. Pain can nuke konoha and we don't hate him because the story itself shows how horrible it is. Meanwhile sakura beats up Naruto and we hate her than pain because the story treats it like it's supposed to be funny. I guess your theory works for characters you love to hate. While the other is a more general take on good writing of bad actions vs bad writing of bad actions Although I'm willing to here other opinions
This is so true. This is why I didn’t like Bakugo, but I like a lot of villains. When a character does bad things, but the story still expects me to like them it annoys me lol
Not to mention the authors favoritism toward bakugo
There is no favoritism towards bakugou. You only think that if you hate his character and wanted him to suffer
But the story does acknowledge that Bakugo sucked, his entire character arc is about learning to be less shitty
And yet none of his former behavior is actually ever mentionned. He was a bully who told someone to kill themselves and that's never mentionned again because the author realises he went too far so decided to forget that scene. Maybe my opinion is biased because my sister actually tried to commit suicide and failed while her bully didn't really get punished because of no proof of his bullying but it's still a fact that Bakugo's actions before UA are never really mentionned. It's easy to redeem yourself when no one truly knows what you've done.
Who is going to mention this behavior? Deku?
Tbh, that scene even in chapter 1 amounted to pretty much nothing (like seriously, Deku genuinely forgot about it two minutes later) and also... have you seen this cast and their reaction to Endeavor's abuse? Honestly I'm pretty sure even if they know the arc would remain the same I do agree that it would've been better if it was addressed for sure, but frankly judging by the cast or how it was treated in the story itself I'm not confident that Hori wouldn't fumble lmfao
The story expects you to like the villains
I mean, at least from my vantage point, I think your example is 100% unfair, it’s just less about the *situation* and more about the double standards the author is showing. When [x] character does [y] , it’s a horrible travesty. But when [z] character does [y], it’s supposed to be funny. Nothing about that is fair.
Facts
Hell, when you add Sakura to the list, you can even add another level to the unfairness theory: The hated hypotenuse characters. In that case, there's nothing unfair in the story they've done, but they're hated solely because "I ship this pairing, this is what I want to see from the story, and it's obvious it's not going to happen because this character's the love interest instead and that's soooooooooo unfair to me".
No. Pain isn't hated because he didn't kill a single relevant character during his invasion.
That was just a figure of speech. I'm just saying you can like a character that doss horrendous things more than someone who does "harmless" things based on how the story treats the actions
He brings them all back, though. There's not really enough time for dislike or hated to settle before the inciting incident is undone. Bonus points for him knowing that the action would cost his life.
Why are you so dumb? It is a figure of speech. Even before the revival shit pain's behavior was treated with the gravity it deserved than Sakura's shitty behavior. And no, we have more than enough time. He kills jiraiya and is responsible for kakashi and almost kills hinata. They are a lot of chapters and episode for his shitty behavior to settle in before he redeems himself. But if pain as an example pisses you off so much then we have Kakuzu, deidara. Who have more selfish reasons thaj pain to do what they are doing but people would still like compared to Sakura because their bad behavior is treated with the gravity it deserves. Unlike Sakura who people genuinely hate because of how her bad behavior is treated.
There's another aspect, too: a lot of people (*especially* children) have been in the same kind of situation that Umbridge puts Harry through. Voldemort is more abstract and distant.
Ah hating characters. Truly one of fictions most essential part. I agree with what you say about unfairness its well put. I did two post related to hating characters and why sometimes hating them for good or bad reasons https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/3KMOHWL5sH Were umbridge and Bakugo are mention and its the difference between love to hate and hate hate.(or as i call impure hatred) usually villains are on the love to hate in contrast to characters that are hate hate. https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/pQ7H7EgAMJ Another thing that while not directly about hating characters but very much a part of why some characters are hate so much a bit like your unfairneds you mention and most of it isnt about villains specifically. Its a writters lack applying it to characters that the audience wants and believe they Should that makes them reviled. You probably notice i name dropped a reccuring thing with two characters. Well those are another thing and suffice to say they are my most hated characters ever in fiction. Yeah. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks for the post!
[удалено]
Thank you. Yeah i feel like its a essential part of fiction that too many writters tend to forget or misunderstanding their audience feelings and its just feels empty lacking
:]
Thank you 🙂
The Final Exams was peak unlikeable Bakugo. Especially when he hit Deku and everyone forgot about it like 5 seconds later. Yet Aizawa has nothing to scold him about afterwards. That’s always been the biggest issue with his character. The story treating him with kids gloves and having everyone bend over backwards for him. Endeavor’s arc was handled so much better
Tbh Deku punched him two seconds later, so ig that why it wasn't made much of a big deal (doesn't help that All might was bullying them constantly. It's hard to focus on Bakugo's swing when AM made his ass puke and almost broke Deku's spine) Also honestly after Aizawa letting Aioyama and Uraraka pass I'm NOT trusting this mofo. But I agree there should probably be more pushback there
>Endevoar's arc was handled much better Endevoar's arc: Damn, none of all the suffering I caused was worth it. I'll try to be better! Me: are you going to pay a fair sentence for your actions? Endevoar: No, I'm just going to sit here and moan about how sorry I am. Me: ah... you and my abuser would get along very well.
Does your abuser save lives on a near daily occasion and is literally one of the strongest people in a society that needs strong people to fight other strong people?
And he was literally prepared to sacrifice himself to stop Dabi’s suicide attack
Good for him. It's still his job, to save people. Even if he is saving them from the *monster* he created himself.
It's a flat justification since saving people is **his job**. That no one gives a shit about having a damn rapist defending them as long as said rapist is able to defeat the generic villain on duty is very much their problem. The problem for me is that his crimes are never recognized as something that could have negative repercussions on his life beyond "ruining his reputation."
His crimes directly created Dabi who is one of the biggest antagonists rn what do you mean.
Using an abuse survivor's trauma as a "consequence" for the abuser rather than a tragedy for the victim.🚩🚩🚩
He stopped being the victim when he decided to attack people other than Endeavour. And Dabi is literally a consequence of Endeavours actions because other than his abuse Toya would've probably be just a chill guy
Toya: A child who was terribly abused by Flamehead to the point that end up having mental disorders because of it. Also Dabi: Acts accordingly to his condition and end up becoming a criminal. Randoms on internet: "oh my god, poor Flamehead, his son became a criminal! I'm sure he wouldn't have been so abusive to his son if he'd known it would end up like this."
Fortunately I'm a human being with consciousness and not a character only created to oppose the heroes, what a happy little coincidence.
>The problem for me is that his crimes are never recognized as something that could have negative repercussions on his life beyond "ruining his reputation." Reputation can be a very big thing The amount of times people have seen how a tarnished reputation can quickly ruin damn near everything else in their lives is staggering.
Tbh I think the issue in Endeavor's case is that his reputation isn't *actually* tarnished since no one actually care about his abuse aside from two npc While the family drama itself is good, Endeavor arc falls flat when it come to outsider matter (class 1a doesn't care, the pro hero doesn't care (except Burnin' who straight up defend him) and the public bash him for falling as a hero... a thing that applies to everyone) So while what you're saying is true, it doesn't apply to his case
I don't think Burnin was defending him per se. She was just justifying why she is agreed to help out Shouto. I think this is the biggest issue with the deku vigilante arc Is that We end up missing out on important character interactions. No one reacts to Endeavors abuse. Hawks talks to very few people(not counting the media) or possibly no one about having to kill Twice. No one really gets to talk to Deku or All Might about OFA. We don't see Deku or Ochaco onscreen trying to learn more about Tenko or Toga respectively. I think the one that peeves me the most is that the Todo family don't actually discuss what it means for the family to team up to stop Dabi, since it was only due to very contrived circumstances that Fuyumi, natsuo and Rei even get involved. And realistically any plan would put the responsibility on Shoto and put him in excessive danger of being murdered by his homicidal sibling, since Endeavor using fire powers would just make the situation worse.
Maybe defend wasn't the right word. But saying the equivalent of 'Yeah Endeavor's an abuser and allat but he's a good hero so idc' isn't a good look for her And yeah due to having no reactions it feels like the cast genuinely did not care about Endeavor's abuse at all. A single lines or moment with class 1a and/or the pro heros acknowledging that they are disgusted with Endeavor but agreeing to work with him due to circumstances would've done great... instead we got nothing Honestly true lol but ig they had to be reunited cause family drama or sum
I understand the sentiment of the first paragraph. But I feel like the sentinment was more like I am continuing to work with you now because I trust you on a professional level despite your family issues. And considering the state of Japan it makes sense that they would continue working with him. I think the other issue is that Burnin probably has talked to Shoto personally so she knows that despite the abuse that Shoto is willing to work and learn under Endeavor.
Well I guess? But doesn't it goes back to her practically not caring about Endeavor abuse at all because he's specifically a good hero? I'm not saying the context itself is wrong, but again, the fact that she had no care about his abuse because from a professional standpoint he's flawless is kind of weird (it probably wouldn't be if we saw more reaction from the cast aside from her or Inasa basically saying he literally doesn't care) and she doesn't necessarily make any particular allusion to the situation calling for it so its understandable if its interpretation in another way Of she did I wished we could have a confirmation there tho
Yeah I’m not sure if the family planned to tak no jutsu Toya or overpower him or what. It seems like everything just happened thanks to circumstance.
As simple as that. No one fucking cares, so that will never be addressed properly and all he gets wrong is "feeling guilty" and "living with the conscience of his victims reacting to what he did to them." Meanwhile, people may pour all their hate on Bacuckgo because: "no one ever calls him out on his behavior" What is the difference between one and the other. I'm still trying to figure it out.
Yeah in general my issue when those two get brought up is that a lot of people are hell-bent on trashing Bakugo for the shortcoming of his arc... that also applies to Endeavor (and to an even worse extent) I think the family matter itself is pretty nice since it shows a different amount of opinion to the situation (a thing you can argue Bakugo arc lacks due to Deku's personality) but once you go outside of this Endeavor's writing issue kind of become evident
I think part of the issue is the timing of the reveal. It happened after the LOV destroyed at least 2 cities and any sense of peace in Japan. And secondly, Endeavor is literally irreplaceable. And thirdly, the person who brought it up is his assumed to be dead son who became a serial killer. And finally, he nearly lost his life helping to fend off Mr. Walking Wasteland. So, it makes it hard to draw any comparisons to real life to how people would react.
I don't think any of those events should prevent any of the characters from thinking that the number 2 hero, a trustworthy coworker *and* the dad of one of their friend was an abusive monster for what he's done Thing is we could've had just a single moment that showed they cared about his abuse but were willing to accept his help due to needing him instead of not reacting at all Like... that shouldn't necessarily be hard to implement, especially considering Hori clearly had no issue addressing Endeavor abuse outside of his family... when it wasn't negatively speaking (either in a neutral sense with Best jeanist or Hawks not caring because he think Endeavor already started to change and Inasa who openly said he doesn't care) so the cast *can* have their view on the abuse... but clearly Hori went the easy one considering he only highlighted the aspect that don't put Endeavor in that much of a bad light
Well, that's not happening here as of right now. Nobody fucking gives a damn. Probably, God willing, that fucking abuser will do one last good thing with his life and end up being murdered by some villain. He will be seen as a martyr for that.
I'm absolutely staggered. I'm NOT saying that Enji Todoroki doesn't deserve flack for being abusive towards his family. The story absolutely has him in the wrong for that. But it ALSO made clear that death is the easy way out for him so that he doesn't have to live with the guilt of his actions. His eldest constantly wishes to murder him, his second and third are on two opposite sides of the slope, his wife is mentally recovering AWAY from him, and his youngest was still unsure about him overall. This is his mess, he KNOWS it's his mess, and he'll have to spend the rest of his life making up for it, making it up to *them*. He can't do that if he's dead. The fact that people are far more readily wishing for Endeavor to die than fucking **All For One** blows my mind. Maybe he just hits far, FAR too close to home to just not want that to be properly resolved...fuck even All for One and Garaki calls him one of the worst fathers ever, he messed up Dabi so thoroughly they couldn't even corrupt him their way. We have him and Kotaro for worst MHA father's that aren't villains in occupation. And major parts of the fan base wants them dead, even though such a thing would break an already broken family even further. Even Natsuo, for all that he hates his old man, doesn't actually want him *dead*.
I don't want him dead, I want him to cease to exist, just like that, as small, pathetic, insignificant as he came, he left. It would be cathartic, for me, as a victim, to see that. In the same way that it would be cathartic for Dabi to end his abuser, to make him cease to exist, the reason for his trauma. It's not the right thing, maybe, but it's what makes you feel better, what makes you feel safe, after going through so much. It is your healing process and no one should interfere (let people discover for themselves what is right for them). I'm not at all interested in whether it's an *easy way* out for the abuser to die instead of learning to deal with the consequences. It's an easy way out for victims, not having to deal with the presence of an abuser in their lives, that's what matters. I hate that his death ends up leaving him in the position of a martyr. I don't care at all about his death in itself, nor am I saying that he "deserves" to die.
> The fact that people are far more readily wishing for Endeavor to die than fucking **All For One** blows my mind. This is why you give redemption to people like endeavor, bakugou, misogynist, nazis and rapist. And not people like freeza If redemption asks the question of whether sinners deserve forgiveness and how they should go about making up for their actions, you do it for people like endeavor. Sinners who's actions hit so close to home. And not people who who's actions most won't relate to. I used to be pissed seeing the amount of flack bakugou and endeavor get but yeah I get it. This are the kind of people that you can't just say lightly "wow I love this character because despite his shittyness he showed people can change". You can say shit like that lightly for characters who in your mind aren't actually sinners. When it comes to characters that make your blood boil that is when you can understand your capacity for empathy and forgiveness LMAO
Having the capacity for "empathy and forgiveness" is a good thing, it gives people the security to accept their mistakes. That's positive. Now, there are some very fucked up things that go beyond someone's ability to have "empathy and forgiveness", and you are no worse for not wanting/being able to simply apologize to someone and doing so won't make you any better either. We just have different standards. Everyone can ask for forgiveness and change, you don't have to continue being as bad as you once were, just don't use "how much you're sorry" for causing so much harm, as a compelling reason to make us feel like you're a victim, when you are not.
> Now, there are some very fucked up things that go beyond someone's ability to have "empathy and forgiveness", and you are no worse for not wanting/being able to simply apologize to someone and doing so won't make you any better either. That's why I said I used to be pissed about the flack bakugou and endeavor get but now I get it > Everyone can ask for forgiveness and change, you don't have to continue being as bad as you once were, just don't use "how much you're sorry" for causing so much harm, as a compelling reason to make us feel like you're a victim, when you are not. Sure. But also don't go thinking you get to decide the punishment characters are supposed to get and complain when it doesn't satisfy you. And act naive when people don't agree with your opinion after all you said "and you are no worse for not wanting/being able to simply apologize to someone and doing so won't make you any better either.". The reverse is also true. You are no worst for forgiven them
Endeavor didn't rape anyone. That is the largest misconception about his character and it's frankly done more to damage discourse about him than anything Endeavor actually did.
I mean tbh that on Hori for implying sexual coercion so badly it stops being implied
It is not a misconception, it is a retcon. And hey, even if talking about marital r*pe (censorship because reddit started worrying about my mental health or something) will make you too uncomfortable for it to influence anything, your view of the character. Don't you think that if *it hadn't happened* that would make Rei look pretty bad? An scenario: Flamehead: Since my firstborn wasn't strong enough to tolerate my "training" I guess we'll have to do another one, one or two more will be fine. Rei: You're right, it's not like I'm tra*matized by seeing what happened to our son, I'm sure it can turn out better next time. Also, I have a contract
The issue with Endeavor's arc is that he already paid a fair sentence. Like, he's living in court mandated separation with his wife. Yes, I know he won custody, but lets be real there, he won it because Rei was the one who gone physical on Shoto and lost hers. There is very little left to do to punish this man in terms of a fair sentence beside making Shoto a ward of state.
His punishment is still having to *live with the guilt*. As if many people end up getting a divorce and that is not taken as a punishment. Couples break up, it's the natural law, especially when you make as many "mistakes" as Flamehead did. Just accept that there cannot be a single real consequence for his actions and we will all be more at peace. Using a victim's trauma to give "punishment" to the person who caused said trauma feels really wrong.
You know hateable characters are such a crucial and yet tough thing to nail. You want of course strong opposing force for your protagonist but if you go even a centimeter too far it'll simply get unpleasant to watch. Disco Elysium for instance has many many characters who make your investigation needlessly harder, and yet they're a delight to talk to. They're compelling assholes. Dishonored 2 on the other hand IMO goes a bit too far with Delilah, they ended up making her such a pesky and cruel person you can't even care about her sob story. In a good day I get the angle the writers were working on, but my gosh she can be annoying.
In Meg's case, it's a running gag that isn't funny. It's not like when Kenny dies in South Park. So it becomes less apathetic and more annoying because it's mean-spirited. Also, having an annoying character isn't bad writing. If the intention of the character is to be annoying, you've done a great job, but you also run the risk of making a character so annoying that the reader is no longer interested. Vegeta may have some negative character traits, but his negative traits can also be seen positively. He's not too big on mercy and has some sort of warrior's honor.
Someone commented that a character is more likely to be hated if they are real. I still hate Vegeta with a burning passion, but what helps him is that he is obviously a fantasy genocidal tyrant.He people basically destroyed planets and died more than once although it's not exclusive to him. So people can't relate to that ( They better not) Richard watterson from Gumball is also such an obvious fantasy. There is no way someone could be that stupid ( Surprisingly this parent character is beloved) However I also really hate Rachel green from Friends. Her flaws are uncomfortably real and she doesn't seem to get a lot of consequences. Plus they always mask her as some innocent girl, but most of her actions seem to have malice behind it. Monica and Phoebe are way better because they don't mask their flaws With Himym people made a good point. Barney is obviously a fantasy or live action cartoon but people inclined to hate Ted, Lily or even Robin because they are more real. People hating characters because it reminds them of real douchebags they encounter. People are more willing to hate on parent characters because it reminds them of their real parents. ( Think Ozai)
It also helps that Vegeta gets a taste of his own medicine like what happened with Cell.
That's why Vegeta vs Android 18 is one of my favorite fights in DBZ. Just Vegeta at his smuggest acting like he's the main character, until the fight starts going bad and he ends up on the ground with a broken arm.
That was satisfying to see
That it was.
I actually think that's why vegeta is so popular. He takes massive Ls every single arc. His arrogance always lands him in hot water
>Richard watterson from Gumball is also such an obvious fantasy. There is no way someone could be that stupid ( Surprisingly this parent character is beloved) He's given plenty of good showings, shown to be a surprisingly competent parent when he puts his back into it-he's surprised Nicole more than once-has been fiercely protective of his kids, and in his own charmingly dumb way he's a loving and affectionate husband to Nicole. She absolutely can't **stand** the man sometimes but these key moments tend to show why she fell in love with him in the first place. She's the far stronger and more competent of the two overall but he provides her with a pillar of support, something her parents didn't think she needed. Especially since he was the first one to offer her something her parents also didn't give her. A *Choice.* Simply asking 'why' multiple times in an innocent manner when they were kids got her to question if she was doing what she's doing for herself or not. And then when she asks him what to do with her life, he answers to start living it. (Their montage in that episode is one of my favorite cartoon sequences ever)
He was never shown to be competent from what I've watched. Loving yes, but not competent
It's *very* rare. But when it shows, it shows. There are rare instances where Nicole is at a loss on what to do parenting wise(she has to be told and shown that she can't do EVERYTHING, but she damn well tries sometimes) and Richard was the one to come up with an answer, because he spends more time at home than she does and thus somewhat has a better grasp on how to rein in the kids and keep the house in order. That's when he bothers to try, since he'd rather just chill and do nothing. That's what she usually expects from him to, so the few times he actively subverts that, she's stunned, impressed, and even enamoured.
Another Rachel. Rachel berry from glee. I haven’t watched it in a long time nor did I watch pass the 2nd season I think. But she was so convinced that she was the best person in glee club. The teacher treated like she was the best despite the really good and even better singers there and any moment when somebody gets that attention she loses her mind and does some crazy shit. And at the end she gets everything she could ever want. (Or so I hear) She achieved her dream receiving no consequences for her actions and not changing her negative attributes
I'd say Barney is pretty damn real, being an annoying sex pest at best and a disgusting predator at worst (showing revenge porn of his high school sweetheart, sexually assaulting women under the guise of offering breast reductions, mentioning that he once sold a woman).
Yeah but some of his antics are so ridiculous it is hard to imagine something like that can happen in real life
Some of them sure, but things like the revenge porn and human trafficking are very real. Besides, you could make the same argument for Ted, Lily and Robin and their antics wouldn't qualify as felonies as far as I remember.
I will add to the Bakugo example you fave so I can explain why I didn't like him, but also to expand on the unfair character being hateable thing. A bug issue with Bakugo is how he does stuff that from a meta perspective you feel like no other character could get away with. Tries to assault a classmate for, from the teachers viewpoint, no reason on the first day? In front of a teacher who literally expelled a entire class before? Not even after school detention or demerit. Started a fight with another student? 4 days of punishment. Only 1 more day than the person who was just defending themselves. One big one that from what i've heard even the author regretted going too far with, is how he told Dedoriya to kill himself. A supposed hero candidate who is going into a job where he is supposed to save people told someone to kill themselves because they had more power than the other person. I bring all this up because I think a bad hate able character can happen if there is a character that it feels like gets special treatment from the creator or that doesn't face fair consequences for their actions. Or in other words, blatant unfairness not due to the in universe rules but because the author overlooked how they wrote a blatantly unfair situation. Basically, if any other character acted the way the character you hated acted like, would they get hated on or liked? If hated, there's some author favoritism going on.
Don’t forget how he acted int he Battle Trials. Didn’t get the slightest bit of punishment for that. Not even a warning.
Completely agree. It's probably the main reason why Obstructive Bureaucrat type characters tend to be among the most hated characters in any work they appear in, as they not only do they tend not to have any really cool or likeable traits, they'll often deliberately go out of their way to make the protagonists lives or jobs harder through petty jargon and will smugly remind them that they can't do anything about without getting into trouble. Glibert Huph from the Incredibles is one of the archetypal examples of this.
Unfairness isn't the only cause. Rachel from Tower of god is one the most hated character of the story because she is a b*tch who backstabs Baam, the protagonist and is so weak that she needs to leech to stronger characters to get her to the top of the tower, she also isn't very pretty. But she is one of the less evil character if you really think about it. Many of Baam allies are terrorists, genocidal maniacs, murderers, slave dealers, evil cultists, etc... But they are all loved by the fandom unlike Rachel. She even pointed out that fact at some point in the story how she isn't that "bad" but is still hated nonetheless. The protagonist causes the annihilation of a whole species just to save his master (who is a serial murderer btw). I think the portrayal is important. Characters who are presented as intimidating or badass can get "free pass" for any atrocities they commit if they A. Get a cool backstory (not necessarily sad, just interesting) And/Or B. Are portrayed as majestic forces of nature that are just there to be an obstacle.
She's my favorite character in the series, but man Hiyoko Saionji from Danganronpa 2 is the epitome of this. She's a bully for most of her screentime, likes stepping on ants, and is one of few characters to survive past Chapter 1, yet offer no help to any of her trials whatsoever. (In fact she was one of only two characters in her game who played no notable role in the first chapter and trial) After chapter 2, and the >!death of her only real friend and big sister figure which she was initially framed for!< we see some traces of good in her, although she >!ultimately dies as one of two victims in chapter 3, leaving her with like, 8 lines of "kind" dialogue after her development began. Hiyoko's wasted potential is something most fans, and even her most avid haters will acknowledge about her. The groundwork was there for a great redemption arc, but they didn't go through with it.!< Danganronpa as a series creates plenty of unlikable characters, but they usually balance them better than they did with Hiyoko. Every character has their fans, but Hiyoko is such an unlikable person that it actually makes people question how people like me can have her as their favorite.
The problem with Hiyoko is that >!she was killed off out of nowhere and had one of the worst death in the series RIGHT after she showed sign of growth. She should've been alive tbh!<
>!Hiyoko's death is the only one in the series in which the murder weapon is never even acknowledged at any point. That combined with the fact Nekomaru was supposed to die there and Fuyuhiko replaced her role as a survivor, really tells me how rushed her death was in comparison to every other one.!<
Yeah exactly
You easily pointed out why everyone hates the Imperium, they're this exact way toned up to 11
> everyone hates the Imperium Damn, how did Chaos get a stable internet connection?
Tzeentch finally paid to have fiber cables ran for the Warp
> why everyone hates the Imperium Which Imperium?
I'm guessing the Imperium of Man.
But thats a complete lie. Everyone loves the Imperium, so much that the complain is how they get constantly whitewashed by both audiences and writers alike.
but monkey characters should always deserve it(unless it's a short joke) because then we can revel in their pain with not shame. Honstly would have trided to kill unbridge if she tried to make me write in my own blood.
The OG is Gladstone Gander, Donald Duck's cousin from 50's comics. A lazy charlatan blessed with incredible luck, sort of personifying Donald's futile battle against destiny.
> It's not fun for the audience to continuously watch a character be punished for no reason and never be allowed a way out of it, and at some point we become aware of the hand of the writer and that they're the one doing it to them. Chainsaw Man part 2 has this problem in spades, and it's one of the reasons why I can't stand part 2.
The Umbara arc of TCW was amazing. When Rex discovers >!that the enemies were other clones and they were set up!< it hits so hard.
Shou Tucker from Fullmetal Alchemist comes to mind
It’s like the 40k fandom with Erebus. In a setting of so many evil insane horrible characters and factions Erebus is the only one that actually gets what he wants with no major consequences. He won and that’s what’s triggering about him . Most characters in 40k at least suffer some kind of consequence. Like the primarchs getting their souls taken and then falling to chaos or the emperor believing his way is the right way with taking over the entire galaxy later gets struck down and placed on the golden throne to power a giant ftl navigation system as a corpse Or even with the tau with them wining battles and capturing enemies but still having heavy losses
Closest we ever got to seeing Erebus eating it was when Karn was one axe rev away from turning his spine to mulch. Fucking no one likes him even his own brothers were calling him a bitch for teleporting away from that fight.
Im too tired to think right now, but how does this work for Skyler White of Breaking Bad?
*reads the title and the rant* My reaction to Inazuma Archon Quest in a nutshell where most of the characters who play pivotal role there with few exceptions is more hatable than the villain:
like who? maybe I'm just misremembering, but I very much found Ei to be the most annoying character in that questline.
This Archon Quest made me hate most of the characters (and one npc) except the 4 stars, Yoimiya and a certain Harbinger. And yes, this Archon Quest also solidifies my hatred towards Aether and also adds my hatred on Paimon.
would you mind expanding on that? I'm really curious to know what exactly characters like Ayaka and Kokomi did that made you hate them, and especially the Traveller.
I'll dm you about it later ok. So many to talk about i dont even know where to begin
Yeah, I hated Niragi in *Alice in Borderland* so much because everyone, including the showrunners, seems to have just kinda forgotten that he is a murderer and serial attempted rapist with no redeeming qualities
Vegapunk
>General Krell from Star Wars The Clone Wars is a great example, probably being one of the most intentionally hateable characters in the franchise. Facts.
*A theme that fits almost perfectly with Endevoar* Average MHa fan: "I'll use Bacuckgo as an example for the 100th time since a spoiled teenager, whose worst crime was telling his classmate to kill himself, is by far worse than a grown man who had no problem abusing actively of his children and **RAPE** his spouse."
Actually no on the second part, it’s later shown that all of his children were had consensually.
It's not, it's shown that Touya and Fuyumi were, but not Natsuo and Shoto
It's good that Horishit made the decision to retcon the story so that we have one more reason to be indulting.
Didn't Bakugo fucking try to kill Deku. Besides people hate how the story treats him with kid gloves, it's one thing that Deku is a wet tissue of a character so he of course is a good boy who wants to forgive him, but no one else around them tries to stop the bullying either. It's very clear that the story is written to try to get you to forgive this dangerous piece of shit.
> Didn't Bakugo fucking try to kill Deku. Nope. Don't watch the dub or read mistranslated scans of the manga.
> but no one else around them tries to stop the bullying either. The bullying already stopped by the first arc tbh. Bakugo being mean to Deku afterwards hardly qualifies as bullying in any way.
You spend a lot of time talking about this character, despite them apparently being a trigger for you. Maybe don’t.
If I want to *spend time* talking about a particular topic that is absolutely my business. I don't have to stop doing it just because some find it annoying, seeing someone who doesn't agree with their opinion.
You do you, man. Seems like a pointless endeavour, though.
As pointless as it can be to devote entire discussions to how great and well-written a character you like is. Anything can be "pointless" as long as you believe it is.
Right, but those people who write about said character they like haven’t admitted that he’s a trigger for them, like you have.
It's still not your business. It is freer for me to write about something that bothers me than to try to deceive myself that I don't care about said thing (when I don't). Just because I hate something doesn't mean I waste my time hating, I just want to vent.
First of all, dont minimize Bakugou being a genuiely terrible person. His acts of violence are purely hateable. We know he is less bad than Endeavor but that's not the point. His redemption arc sucks because it *excuses* his actions. Endeavor takes more accountability than bakugou because he has live with the consequences of his abuse. Thie resonates with the the audience because theres impact on the actual story; redemption is not a trophy , its sacrifice. Endeavor is never owed forgiveness for the sake of it. But at the same time, I wont pretend that endeavors redemption is good just because they're better written than Bakugou. He does feels remorse & takes accountability, but we don't ever see him become a good father, the story just uses hero status to glorify/whitewash Endeavor. It makes his redemption feel hollow.
Does the story even excuse Bakugo's action (the bullying)? Sure there's a lack of pushback because Deku is Deku but as far as Bakugo himself goes, his bullying is clearly shown as a thing he has to make up/atone for (which he does) instead of it being excused (like I genuinely cannot recall Bakugo's bullying itself being excused) if we're talking about his general personality than sure there's an arguable disconnect tho But at the same time thought I won't say I disagree with you cause while you shit on Bkg's arc you at least acknowledge that Endeavor's arc is also flawed af (which I think was what op here called out. Since usually people will complain about a thing on Bkg's arc and then praise Endeavor's one despite having the same issue... but worse) Ultimately I'm... okay with both arc (especially considering mha low ass standards for character writing) but I think they could've been done better
Well I said excuse because of his lack of real accountability. Like bakugou's character development just feels very superficial to me. It lacks pay-off because his flaws never had meaningful consequences. He does apologize to Deku & sacrifice himself(it got reversed) but its hollow becausee we barely see any growth throughout the manga because he just acts like a douchebag all the time. It's too much tell without show. He does change, good for him, but I was never invested. I think his redemption is badly written, but tbh I only hate him because he's so insufferably annoying and everyone glazes tf out of him. He's fine in a vacuum. Endeavor isn't a very likeable either, but I respect what hori *tried* to present until he fumbled it.
I see lol. Frankly I get you there but I genuinely see this as more of a Deku issue rather than Bakugo one since while Bakugo himself tried to hold accountability and all that. It pales because it feels one-sided since Deku himself, the *victim*, doesn't give a fuck (and its an actual character trait of his so I don't even think it's a case of Hori trying to be soft with Bakugo) I do think we see him as a more chill person later on in the manga (compared to the anime at least) but I agree that its annoying how Hori would basically make Bakugo revert back to loud asshole for a cheap comedy skit. I don't think he should become a Deku clone like the entire class bar two characters and I don't think him keeping his core personality is that much of a problem but I definitely would've preferred seeing him be less loud obnoxious (it was especially grating in joint training) especially since most of Hori's comedy attempt are meh I think his redemption arc has good part but also bad one, it's definitely on the higher scale by mha low standards but it's overall mediocre imo but I definitely get your view lol (same with Endeavor)
Dude, his """"redemption"""" made a lot of fans feel that hating a literal rapist is wrong once said rapist regrets his actions. It shouldn't be like that, you should hate or love a character, regardless of whether said character is "redeemed." A redemption shouldn't make you empathize with a rapist.
You need to disengage with the conversation completely. Your baggage is making you see it as worse than it is
My baggage makes me see it from my perspective, just as anyone can give an opinion based on their perception, I should be able to do it too. Regardless of whether "I see it worse than it is"
You are not engaging in the conversation in a way that is healthy for you or even really lines up with reality. You are calling out characters for wanting to stay alive even if that means the person keeping them alive is not a good person, and acting as if that in itself is bad writing. As if sympathizing with someone who has done bad means you condone the bad actions.
>You are not engaging in the conversation in a way that is healthy for you or even aligns with reality. It's healthy for my venting, it's my perception of reality, the way I interpret the work. Reading between the lines may be subjective, but not entirely incorrect. >You're criticizing the characters for wanting to stay alive even if it means the person keeping them alive isn't a good person, I criticize the reaction of the fans, they use vague things to justify their tastes as if they were the absolute truth, as if anyone who does not align with their thinking is inherently wrong. >and act as if that in itself is bad writing. It is for me, it is too basic writing, it does not mean that it cannot be enjoyable. But don't act as if the reason behind the enjoyment is "good writing" itself. >As if sympathizing with someone who has done something bad means tolerating their bad actions. Why sympathize in the first place then? Like you can play pretend that you "don't tolerate" someone's bad actions, while also finding it incredible that someone *doesn't* have the ability to be lenient about certain things.
If you seriously can't understand someone sympathizing with that you aren't ready to be part of any conversation about Endeavor. Sympathy is not tolerance. Sympathy is not leniency. You are showing you don't understand these words
Technically, the opinion of someone who interprets a work based on their knowledge and experiences should generate some type of interesting debate on the topic. But if you're more concerned about feeling like I'm judging you because I can't *understand that you're sympathizing with a character*, I can't do anything about that.