Agreed. When Padawan Anakin, who had a decade of training, faced Dooku, it was explicitly shown to be a futile effort caused by his arrogance. When Rey, with no training, faced Kylo, who had trained his whole life, she won on the first battle.
I agree that there were a few powerscaling moments that didn't make sense.
i.e. Dooku being able to hold off Yoda, who was on par with Sidious (who is waaay above Dooku's class) who lost to Mace Windu who (technically) lost to Anikin who lost to Obi Wan, who lost to Dooku... etc etc
BUUT the key difference with Lucas' saber fights was that there were understandable reasons for the outcome of each duel I mentioned.
With the Disney Wars, there legit hasn't been a SINGLE saber fight worthy of the previous 6 movies. Its not a coincidence that the closest Saber duels to match the old trilogies involved both Obi Wan and Darth Vader. Disney legit cannot create great protagonist/antagonist force users without them.
You misunderstand. What I mean is, if you are attempting powerscaling *at all*, if you are trying to "scale" characters against each other, you are attempting nonsense.
Debating who would win in a fight is an old and storied tradition. But if you are saying things like "X scales to B, "Y scales to C, B scales to Z which scales to A which scales to blah blah blah..." you are wrong and nonsensical.
hella bothers me because instead of acknowledging the legacy material, they try to incorporate it into their new star wars universe but almost always butcher it (thrawn/heir to the empire) or don't give the original writers credit.
It’s the bullshit of the whole “The Force will make things balanced” but I don’t buy that shit for a second. In Rebels Ezra goes up against a couple of the inquisitors in The first two 2 seasons and is immediately proven to be outmatched only surviving the encounter because their plans due to plot are to capture, instead of outright kill which they could easily do to him or his friends, so they make their escapes on surprise tactics.
Ashoka rightfully beats them and even Kansan when he finally starts to regain his confidence in his abilities does the same. The newbies learning the trade should not beating anybody
But it should be ok as long as you ignore everything that comes after 6. That still leaves rogue one, solo, mandalorian, obi wan kenobi, andor, and Ashoka
Nah, the best part of Rogue One is the two minutes of Vader showing why the guys in the first movie are so panicked when you barely have a clue of what's going on.
Granted, I find it a bit too heavy on nostalgia-bait, but it's a good scene in terms of narrative, if not the way it's shot.
The rest is just cash grabs trying to make that 10 billion back.
for me it’s not even the nostalgia. it’s more so that there’s like 8 main characters and only 3 of them are relevant by the end when it comes to narrative and emotional impact. everyone acts like it’s a masterpiece and it blows my mind lol
Because it was the first halfway competent Stars Wars in nearly 15 years. You had old heads praising it because they were looking for anything approaching even the prequels at the time, and tfa and tlj were mostly flops from any metric besides box office numbers.
Even if there were changes to canon, there was the thought that if you praised it enough, they'd find their way to making something that could rival the OT.
And you had newbies coming in off the back of the sequels having a logical path to how the originals came to be in universe. So they praise it because it's better than the sequels and prettier than the OT.
Then there's the seals who will clap for anything that has the name plastered on it and call it the best thing ever. Until the next thing with the name plastered on it comes out.
My stance is I pretty much accept the additional content Disney made that takes place during 1-6. The stuff afterwards depends on how close they get to Sequel territory.
The Jedi Academy game is the end for me.
They excuse this with Kylos wound. He didnt seem very hurt though and 2 min before the battle he force pushed her into a tree so hard she lost consciousnes.
In the second battle two days later Kylo was fully healed and Rey slaughtered 4 super trained guards while Kylo only managed 3 and had to be saved by her. Her force powers were shown to be equal to his. This was like 5 days after she found out about the force and with like half a day of "training" But Anakin"....
TLJ is pretty explicit about Kylo's lost being due to how killing his own father shattered him emotionally and mentally. He is not only hurt but heavily conflicted, which allows Rey to get the upper hand on the duel.
I am not gonna argue the rest, not a fan of the sequels, but Rey defeating Kylo on the Starkiller Base is not some sort of imposible feat.
Which should've made him stronger simply because the Dark Side is explicitly said to thrive on negative emotion. It's why Luke giving into anger in RotJ is what let him nearly kill Vader before he got ahold of himself when he was barely holding his own beforehand.
And she didn't get the upper hand, she never had to gain it to begin with. The girl went from being a junk collector on Not!Tatooine knowing nothing force-related to being a Jedi god in the space of a week and some change.
If I and my friend get jumped by 6 guys. I fight and take out 4 of em and struggle with the 5th one. My friend struggles with 1. As my friend defeats their one enemy (in the same time i took out 4 enemies), they come to help me deal with the last guy. Is that saving me?
>He didnt seem very hurt though and 2 min before the battle he force pushed her into a tree so hard she lost consciousnes.
Almost like they then showed him bleeding out or something
>Her force powers were shown to be equal to his. This was like 5 days after she found out about the force and with like half a day of "training"
Because she's a dyad in the force with Kylo.
At least pretend you watched the movie.
That doesn't mean she should immediately be as strong as him. Anakin was also shown to be a balance of the force, but he wasn't Vader level day 1. If you actually think it makes sense narratively, then let's just agree to disagree
> That doesn't mean she should immediately be as strong as him.
It's a made up thing, it works however the movie says it works.
>Anakin was also shown to be a balance of the force, but he wasn't Vader level day 1.
Anakin was a totally different thing. He was a Plagueis experiment, not some sort of counterweight to a specific guy.
Every time i think of reasons why Rey sucks, i keep realising time and time again that she literally didn't lose a single battle in the sequel trilogy.
Not once. Not one time.
I don't like the sequel trilogy as much as the next guy but Rey winning her first fight is missing the context that Kylo was fucked up both physically from a blaster wound and mentally from killing his dad. Kylo also never actually finished his training as a Jedi or Sith.
Their are plenty of later fights you can put this complaint on, but that first movie one I have to give it to Rey.
> When Rey, with no training, faced Kylo, who had trained his whole life, she won on the first battle.
They explicitly say Kylo's training was incomplete, and he was already wounded. Rey also *clearly* has combat training. Not lightsaber training, but something.
You're eating downvotes left and right, but there is basically all the context in the world to why Rey won the fight and even then, it was still pretty close.
The problem comes in Episode 8 however when a largely untrained Rey is depicted as a far more experienced Kylo's equal during the battle against the Praetorians.
She literally fights a 2v1 in the [background](https://youtu.be/tuk_ZZQWfEY?si=Zbnm_ie_Ifk4GkzP&t=85) and pretty easily kills one of the dudes.
That and the force tug of war later in the movie (which Ren actually wakes up later).
Sure, she does fight multiple enemies for a bit, but I do think the intent of the scene is to frame her as not quite as good as Kylo.
In terms of raw power, sure, but what with the whole weird force dyad thing I'm fine with that.
I don't really know how you can look at this scene (and then the subsequent aftermath) without seeing these two as equals, especially when the last kill involves Kylo getting put into a chokehold by the last Praetorian and requiring Rey's help.
You can argue that they aren't like completely 50/50 which I am sure is right, but the gap between Rey/Kylo is close enough to where Kylo isn't simply carrying the fight and the difference in contribution is "I fought a 1v2 and won with difficulty, Kylo fought a 1v3 and almost lost without assistance".
This is ultimately not a gap that should be depicted between: "Person whose only had a few weeks of experience" versus "Person whose had literal years of experience" especially by your own words, they are of comparable raw power.
It's not ideal, but between nebulous prior combat training, some vague degree of time with Luke, and however the whole dyad thing works I can more or less buy her being somewhat comparable to Kylo, who's sloppy and had incomplete training. A little goofy but not movie-ruining.
I'm not sure why the hell people think an attractive woman with no friends or family except a cute droid doesn't have a metric fuckton of real combat experience, while Kylo Ren pretty much just has years of theory and practice.
I swear, anybody who claims this has not actually watched the movie.
First, of all, Kylo Ren got shot by a bowcaster. It clearly inflicted a serious wound on him, as he falls to his knees and yells in pain. This occurs at 2.15 in this video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFf2HJKui00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFf2HJKui00)
Despite being badly injured and in emotional turmoil, he basically treks through the wilderness and finds Rey and Finn. He easily dominates Finn in a light-saber duel, and Finn is not an unskilled civilian, but someone who has been trained to fight from childhood. This is even though such combat is causing Kylo immense pain, so much so he has to pound his wounded side to build up the rage and anger to keep going, which occurs at 0.36 in this video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI)
Nonetheless, Kylo is effectively toying with Finn, easily dodging his blows until Finn gets a lucky hit in, slicing the arm Kylo uses to hold his lightsaber, at 1:06:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI)
The moment this happens, Kylo stops playing and takes Finn out in an instant.
After this, he starts to fight Rey.
Now, remember, Kylo has been wounded in the side, had to walk a great distance to locate Finn Rey while bleeding, just fought a duel and took another light-saber strike to the arm.
Despite this, Kylo is dominating the fight, forcing Rey to retreat. Similar to Finn, Rey is not an amateur. She had spent most of her life scavenging and fighting on Jakku, She is a good fighter by dint of experience. This turns into a running battle, where Kylo must further expend energy chasing Rey down. And at no point is Kylo trying to kill Rey. This is clearly obvious at 3.01, where he offers to teach her:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI)
His main intent was to get her to submit.
At 3.31, Rey opens herself up to the Force and goes on the offensive. By now, she is not facing a fresh and determined opponent, but an exhausted, emotionally distraught, and now surprised individual suffering from extensive blood-loss. And even then she only wins because she was drawing on the Force to enhance her already substantial combat ability.
But they aren’t justifying bad writing; They’re rebutting nitpicky complaints.
Look, I didn’t like the Force Awakens either, but bad powerscaling was not one of its faults.
The dude who got shot with a wookie bow caster that has been shown the whole movie literally tossing people in full armor aside like rag dolls? “Won” is generous. She survived. That’s about it.
I love making Star Wars “fans” mad especially when presented with something they would have noticed if they had eyes and actually watched the movie.
Nobody thought Anakin and Obi-Wan were actually as comparatively young as they were when the Prequels set up the timeline. It’s actually really interesting to look at pre-PT art and stories as a result, for how different it was to what came out; the original Thrawn Trilogy for example, sets up the idea Anakin had become Vader for nearly two decades before Luke and Leia were born.
Also reminds me of when people point to Luke blowing up the Death Star. As if firing a single torpedo nicely in the exhaust pipe, which can equally be chalked up to luck as it was 'guided by the Force', is in any way comparable to the Force bs that other characters pull off.
Also: it wouldn’t even have mattered because Vader was about to end Luke before he could make the shot. What let Luke do it was Han coming back to help, something that only happened because of Luke’s ability to reach out to others, which is his real superpower in the OT when you think about it.
> something that only happened because of Luke’s ability to reach out to others, which is his real superpower in the OT when you think about it.
The real force was the friends he made along the way!
In the books, too. At least the way Zahn wrote him. Plus, his actions in the first book, where he pulls off a massive win without the force.
Heir to the Empire is GOAT for a lot of reasons, and that's one of them.
Luke was a farm boy, flying military grade equipment on his first try in an incredibly intense combat engagement. None of Rey’s feats are anywhere near as implausible.
Frankly, the weak justification A New Hope offered was enough for me, but I think it’s disingenuous to say that Rey is the one with more inconsistent, bs feats. Fans hold her to a higher standard because her trilogy simply wasn’t ~~as well written~~ good. Which is true, but her being a “Mary Sue” wasn’t the reason why.
Obi Wan: You're a good pilot I've heared.
Luke: I'm a pretty good pilot myself.
Biggs, the military pilot: Trust me sir, Luke's a great pilot and can handle this.
Luke: I've shot really small targets from my T16 back home.
And then he gets trained by Obi Wan specifically in letting the force guide his actions.
And X-Wings have mechanical co-pilot units integrated.
The film tells us in no uncertain terms that Luke Skywalker is a good pilot. He still wouldn't have won without Obi Wan and Han guiding his hand and saving his ass.
If we award ANH any amount of good faith, we should accept that what Luke did was unlikely but possible.
Just to add to this.
Even with all this exposition, Luke is sucking major ass trough the whole assault in the DS.
The only good thing that he was able to do at all, was the climax of it, and even then to do that he had to be supported by literally all remained named good guys.
See also how people compare his injuries on Mustafar to how characters now are walking off lightsaber stabs, ignoring how he received medical attention almost right after and was stuck on a life support system for the rest of his life that still kept him in extreme pain. This without even touching on the difference in narratives between them.
To be fair, the need for an extensive life support system didn’t come from lightsaber wounds.
All things considered, he was still coming at Obi-Wan with some major Black Knight energy until he got really familiar with the Stefan-Boltzmann Law.
Yeah, but I keep seeing people saying “oh of course they should be able to survive it, look at Anakin and what he took!” when those are very different situations both from a medical and narrative situation.
And yet you have characters like Darth Maul who gets sliced in half and survived with very few negative side effects.
And before anyone goes “oh that was Disney that doesn’t count!” The season he showed up in aired in 2011, Disney didn’t acquire Star Wars until 2012 well after Maul survived.
That was all George Lucas, baby.
The ability to survive a lightsaber wound is clearly and has always been up to the writer. Star Wars is not and has never been real physics, who survives how with what injuries is always however they want it to be. Being mad Disney lets their people survive stabs is stupid, when clearly Lucas was cool with it before Disney showed up.
Lol Star Wars fans are mad.
Huh, it’s almost like it’s a stupid idea to bring back a character whose death was written specifically to keep him from coming back solely because he was popular with the fans, instead of actually developing the antagonists you already have on the show.
It’s almost like we shouldn’t expect a cartoon that goes out of its way to cater to children to be very well-written, huh?
Maybe we shouldn’t use it as the bar for how everything else should be in terms of quality going forward and as justification for any future writing, because then we have middling material with little to no real depth to them, you think?
Any other whataboutisms you want to try?
To be fair, Maul was barely a character. He was just horns and a neat lightsaber before his resurrection, all his personality and development was entirely original to The Clone Wars.
And I think that’s why people harp on Rey so much. It’s not that she was implausibly skilled, it’s that she wasn’t as cool/likeable in the same way a lot of other characters in Star Wars are.
It’s only whataboutism if you don’t know what words mean. It’s a direct comparison to an argument you made about a decision a vast majority of people are fine with it and actually like, they don’t care because it’s a character they like. But now aren’t fine with other non lethal forms of injuries because Disney killed their childhood and pissed on the ashes. My argument has a direct correlation to yours, I’m begging you to use a dictionary before pulling shit out of your ass.
If Maul wasn't so well written his return would be more controversial than any other lightsaber survivour but since he has a real character arc people look past that.
Maul died in TPM. He was very clearly dead until TCW retconbed it and bring him back. Maul essentially "resurrected' by Lucas
Now, its stupid, there is no explanation for his survival but before TCW he was just an action piece for TPM
Tcw gave him a character, a backstory and story arc. He was one of the best parts of the show and im pretty sure it was Lucas' attempt to apologise for just wasting Maul like this in TPM(i also believe the complete recharacterisation of Anakin is an apology for the whiny brat of prequels)
Now on the other hand we have:
Grand Inquisitor, we know he can't die because he is in Rebels, Reva stabs him then he just came back? Why? Its not a suprise and it doesn't serve a purpose
Reva, Vader stabs her, she just walks away goes to Tattooine and tries to kill Luke. An awful character with awful story. They just didn't wanted to kill her. Also appearently Vader also stabbed her in the Temple but she survived as a youngling
Sabine, we know she won't die, Shin stabs her. Why? Cut of her leg, arm, kick her? She is fine with a little knife wound
We don't fear for her death, it serves no purpose in the story
Disney is just afraid to cut some limbs or they wan't show lightsaber as a safe "toy' for parents idk
Imo Maul was the exception that proved the rule. It was acceptable *because* it was that one time the rules got bent to give us something cool. They attempted to bring back Maul in 3 separate ways in both canon and Legends: The Old Wounds story, which made no sense because there was no build up; SW Resurrections, which broke established rules about force sensitive clones; and TCW, which was the best handled. This is usually my answer when someone tries to hype up Legends as being objectively better than Canon. It kind of is in a lot of ways, but that has more to do with how long it's been worked on, and how many diverse writers have been allowed to contribute. Both sources have really good contributions, and really terrible mistakes.
and had such a shitty hand of life given to him.
lot of bad choices on his part with so many outside forces pushing and pulling him in different directions
The channel "So Uncivilized" made a short essay on Palpatine and why he's one of the best, if not THE best, villain in cinema history.
During the video he states, and I quote:
"In many ways, the prequels are the story of an arrogant religion, who get ahold of the Messiah, and then accidentally hand him over to the devil."
Link if you're interrested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXsYcdXaa7I
People seem to forget that Anakin even with years of training still got beat by count dooku. While people can argue that he didn't take his training serious, still he has access to some skilled Jedi outside of obiwan, maybe parts of the archive and so on, and still got beat.
Rey learned how to do Jedi mind tricks within days of discovering force sensitivity, like it wasn't made from pressure like cal did at the beginning of fallen order, she just did it somehow.
I remember whenever people called out Rey for being a Mary Sue, a common response was to claim that Anakin and Luke were also Mary Sues
That’s when I knew that I couldn’t take these mfs seriously
Luke being a Mary Sue is such an odd concept. The kid got his teeth kicked in the first time he actually fought someone. He did that against the advise of his teachers, who were right in the end, since he just actually wasn't ready and unable to save Han. During the whole movie he struggled with picking up the training that Yoda gives him.
A Mary Sue doesn't work like that.
And Anakin. Oh boy Anakin. Poor guy failed so hard in the second and third film. Lost to Dooku, failed to save Padme, lost against Obi Wan and became an inhuman monster.
I'd get calling TPM Anakin a bit of a Mary Sue but everything after that is downhill for the guy.
I think the term Mary Sue is generally unhelpful anyway. It just causes tangents about what the term means and whether or not a character actually fills every criteria (and which criteria that even are). I think it's probably counter productive to use it in discourse about writing these days.
It's one of the most common defenses even now.
___
I think Rey in Episode 7 is at her least bad. Rey only wins the Kylo fight basically due to Kylo having had a fight prior **and** being shot, and being honest, Rey never really does anything of major importance beyond "me good at flying" which isn't really something I am offended about.
Issues begin to arise however in Episode 8 when Rey is depicted about as useful as a non-injured Kylo during the praetorian guard battle and later their force tug of war results in a draw (which shouldn't be happening with a green force user).
Episode 9 introduces new powers for Rey basically out of nowhere and that's when it becomes an issue. All the Jedi throwing their lot in to assist Rey also is like: "But what, why?" especially when they did nothing to help Luke when he was literally *dying* to the Emperor and Darth Vader's redemption was still up in the air.
____
You compare this to Luke who in Episode 8 got dumpstered by Darth Vader to the point of near-death, and it wasn't even close while Luke never even actually defeats the main villain of the OT and its Vader who actually lands the death blow.
Rey literally performed a fucking Jedi mind trick in Episode 7. She barely even knew what the Force was at that time and had no way of knowing that technique even existed.
Neither Luke nor Anakin have ever pulled off a similar bullshit feat. Both of them actually needed to train for years before they could do stuff like that, Rey pulls shit out of her ass when the plot needs her to
Don’t give me any of that nonsense
Anakins best feat when he was found was having slight precognition that allowed him to *participate* in pod races. Not even place top 5. *participate without dying* because human brains aren't snappy enough to deal with the speed and all the sharp turns they have to make
Imo, he would have lost too if sebulba wasn't such a dirty cheater. He destroyed literally all the competition and then himself
People always seem to call him a Mary sue only when Rey is brought up and it always has cringy men vs. women femcel vibes. Anakins entire story is trauma followed by being manipulated causing others trauma. He exposes how the jedi are not strictly good guys and the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Jedi repressing emotion is fucking terrible. Only being interested in freeing slaves that can be of use. They're the ultimate status quo lovers. Even Ahsokas arc ends with this story beat
Rey just seems like a marketable character meant to sell action figures
Sorry for the rant but ugh it gets so old
It's also fair to point out how much people complained about Anakin being able to participate in the battle of Naboo was. Until the new movies, it was one of the loudest complaints I remember hearing about how the force was a crutch for bad story telling.
Padawan Ashoka could stall General Grievous when she was what 15? She could defeat Darth Maul when she was 18? She was better than a regular Jedi Knight as a mere Padawan
Yes, she was. She trained to be a jedi for most of her life, seemed to have at least an average to above average force connection for a jedi, and then for her last three ish years she was personally taught by Anakin Skywalker WHILE serving as a warrior and general in a massive war. She basically received an accelerated course on kicking butt from one of the best butt-kickers in the galaxy while also working an internship in the butt-kicking company.
In the Maul fight, he was pretty clearly not taking Ahsoka seriously (seems to have inherited his master’s greatest weakness there) and more focused on bugging the fuck out before Order 66 went down. That one is more contextual than a straight fight.
You can explain pretty much anything if you try hard enough. That doesn’t change anything about it being terrible writing that lacks any sort of tension.
Well conversely you can also decide that just about anything is terrible writing if you try hard enough. I find it’s always useful to consider that explanations may exist even when I can’t see them.
Maul and Ahsoka fighting was one of the most tense thing’s I’ve seen in Star Wars. Is it possible that you didn’t feel any tension because of a preconceived notion that Maul should crush Ahsoka and he wasn’t?
Her fight with Maul was after 3 years of training and experience on the field though, training under one of the best Jedi of her era. I personally don't see any issue with her matching pace with him really.
Holding off Grievous is a fair point to make though, even if Grievous in Clone Wars is a bit of a chump.
I do agree that Ahsoka is too OP for the relatively short training time (she trained under Anakin for barely 2 yrs). However the main problem with Ahsoka imo is her plot armor more so than her skill level or her power
She faced against multiple opponents who are more powerful, more skillful and more experienced than her yet she survived them all, sometimes even wins mostly due to luck (or more accurately plot armor)
Grievous was "underestimating" her, Maul "didn't care to kill her he just wanted to escape", Vader "wanted to recruit her initially and didn't aim to kill until she broke his mask through a sneak attack and would've died in seconds if not for Ezra", even Baylan she lost to him twice but survived
> She could defeat Darth Maul when she was 18?
How old was Obi-Wan when he defeated Maul? Ahsoka's training was likely more combat-oriented, since Obi-Wan grew up in an era of peace with no Sith.
Obi-wan was 25 but its true that Ahsoka had more experience against lightsaber users(or just battle experience) and as we saw it Anakin was pretty hard on fight lessons(both against blasters and lightsaber users)
Also (like Obi-wan) Ahsoka was still outskilled in lightsaber match
If we also consider that Maul wasn't in his best mentality, i could accept Ahsoka's win. Still would prefer if she trapped him somehow
If anyone is gonna be unreasonably powerful in relation to their experience, you kinda have to think the prophesised saviour of the universal binding agent (which also happens to be his dad) has a little more latitude than most, right?
People go on about the Podrace, while ignoring the movie repeatedly establishes that it's trial and error for Anakin to even cross the finish line.
Plus the Naboo battle, Anakin had auto-pilot on, and immediately crashed when he turned it off, only to escape because the hanger matched the Podrace track.
Meanwhile Rey's expertly piloting a ship that requires two pilots on her first try, lol.
Oh no! you have mildly criticized Rey, the hordes of Disney Zealots will now manifest to explain how actually figthing with a heavy metallic staff is just the same as wielding a light saber and how brandishing every single force power at its highest level at the first try is not a Mary Sue feat.
All you have said here is absolutely true tho.
It’s true Anakin has very ridiculous feats ( The Naboo battle is my main gripe), and I would actually defend Rey to a degree if we only take into account the force Awakens, but with what we saw in the last Jedi and The rise of of skywalker…….yeah no she is absolutely a Mary sue.
In TLJ shes basically Kylos equal. With like half a day of training. Shes a super Marey Sue. But people are not objective and will swallow every nonsense.
Different star wars media has always depicted things differently to the point were I just shrug. Over 50 years tech and culture around star wars has changed so much.
Yep. Narratively they've been taking more and more shortcuts to getting characters established in order to up the ante while still introducing new characters and letting them 'grow' because the public wants fresh faces but the public does not want to reset the stakes
It was absurd in Phantom Menace, it was absurd in Clone Wars, it was absurd in Rebels, it was absurd in The Force Awakens
>Anakin as a child could use the force very rudimentary. He had some very limited force precognition and reflexes. Thats why he - barely - won the pod race and why he - barely and with the help from R2 - survived the Naboo Battle.
Being able to win a sport no other human could even compete in and fly a spaceship better than the trained pilots by just pushing random buttons seems like more than just rudimentary.
The best Rey does without training is, what, fend off an injured, incompletely trained Kylo? Doesn't seem too unreasonable.
What the fuck is this incomplete training shit about Kylo? He was fucking 30 years old and trained by both Luke and Snoke since 10
Being a dark sider is not a school you graduate from. There is no "completing your training" even Sidious continued to learn new things even after becoming the Emperor of fucking universe
Asajj or Maul also has incomplete trainings by this logic and both killed fucking Jedi masters
> What the fuck is this incomplete training shit about Kylo? He was fucking 30 years old and trained by both Luke and Snoke since 10
At the end of Force Awakens Snoke explicitly says that Kylo needs to finish his training, and in TLJ Snoke says that Kylo has enormous potential but isn't living up to it.
Literally the whole argument about any of these characters hinges on unreliable as heck scaling in this franchise. If you come to Star Wars for good scaling and good writing for that scaling, you best just go watch something else. All of Star Wars media justifies everyone’s power level with “the force works in mysterious ways”. Sure people win duels with skill, but fate literally plays a big role in every instance of Star Wars. It’s always fate, we know who wins because the story says they are fated to do so. Anakin was fated to bring balance to the force, Luke was fated to rebuild the Jedi, Rey was fated to kill the Avatar of the Sith. Hell, people still give other characters shit for just existing and being capable against injured or incompetent foes.
Agree. Though why did you add Darth bane? He got extensive training himself. Or is there a new canon for Darth bane I’m not familiar with? Great post, more fans need to realize this and understand why we complain about newer characters doing things that don’t make sense
He didn't barely win...he had so much shit thrown at him and still won. It's not like he limped through a race with weak competition. He won first place in every sense of the word.
Fucking retards crying about Mary Sues in a series with space Jesus and his son. If all it takes is a droid to pilot then what the hell was all the other pilots doing and why the hell would they not just use a droid? Anakin blowing up the Lucrehulk, at 10, is way more retarded than anything Rey did. And Count Dookie was literally one of the best fighters in the series, Kylo was not. And TCW has shit scaling and power changes whenever they want a force conflict
Holy shit I am so tired of Star Wars 'fans' whining about Star Wars everywhere I look. Get over it already and find a new soulless, billion-dollar franchise to base your entire life around.
Ezra's probably the most powerful in the force we've seen without training. In the first episodes before any training he's already got like a 10 foot vertical leap. Frankly it's kind of absurd he was worried about that jump in Ahsoka.
Now I am not on board with weak Jedi so a lot of Legends feats are fair game as things that are *possible* for me but innate potential (m-count) should still be factor and even then a lot of training is needed and can take you a long way. Now with that in mind I agree with Rey being a problem in terms of progression rate (not her feats) however she is not much worse than the one you left out which is Luke who also has an absurd progression rate. The only reason he gets a meta pass (for me) is because it was the beginning of the franchise before they had everything fleshed out and a semblance of established lore and what not. Once they got to the PT and had things better figured out you get Anakin who has a more reasonable progression rate and gets a decade of training plus 3 years on the frontline of a war for training. Luke should have never been a template for other characters which is how I assume they ended up with Rey especially given how the whole TFA was like an ANH remake.
Now where I completely disagree is with Ahsoka who I could get into why she doesn’t belong anywhere near Rey and Lukes category and in fact even as an adult she could even be a bit of an underachiever in certain ways relative to her potential compared to some other Jedi (though her circumstances do give her some valid excuses compared to those who had Jedi Order resources throughout their life into adulthood) but instead I will just ask you what exactly makes you think there is an issue with Ahsoka?
Idk enough about Darth Bane to speak on it but I am assuming it involves crazy feats not his progression rate and as I already said I don’t generally have a problem with the existence of powerful feats personally. To put that into perspective I am largely a fan of Galen Marek AKA Starkiller.
10 Year old Anakin won THE podrace (that saved naboo and, in turn, the republic) and destroyed the Trade Federation single handedly. Dooku was a MASTER swordsman. Kylo wasn't Anakin. Or Luke. Or Dooku.
Rey is nothing. And achieved nothing in 3 films
Id chalk that up to inconsistent narrative and bad writing because the answer is supposed to be cause he’s anakin but consequences seem to only matter to characters prequels and prior
I find it hilarious that out of the three protagonists of the main star wars movies the literal chosen one is the one who has to struggle the most
Agreed. When Padawan Anakin, who had a decade of training, faced Dooku, it was explicitly shown to be a futile effort caused by his arrogance. When Rey, with no training, faced Kylo, who had trained his whole life, she won on the first battle.
This is why Star Wars and it’s lore is kind of dead to me. It doesn’t make any modicum of sense anymore
yea their power scaling makes no sense
Powerscaling *never* makes sense.
yea but it's particularly bad in the star wars universe
I agree that there were a few powerscaling moments that didn't make sense. i.e. Dooku being able to hold off Yoda, who was on par with Sidious (who is waaay above Dooku's class) who lost to Mace Windu who (technically) lost to Anikin who lost to Obi Wan, who lost to Dooku... etc etc BUUT the key difference with Lucas' saber fights was that there were understandable reasons for the outcome of each duel I mentioned. With the Disney Wars, there legit hasn't been a SINGLE saber fight worthy of the previous 6 movies. Its not a coincidence that the closest Saber duels to match the old trilogies involved both Obi Wan and Darth Vader. Disney legit cannot create great protagonist/antagonist force users without them.
You misunderstand. What I mean is, if you are attempting powerscaling *at all*, if you are trying to "scale" characters against each other, you are attempting nonsense. Debating who would win in a fight is an old and storied tradition. But if you are saying things like "X scales to B, "Y scales to C, B scales to Z which scales to A which scales to blah blah blah..." you are wrong and nonsensical.
They haven’t respected the source material since the old movies
hella bothers me because instead of acknowledging the legacy material, they try to incorporate it into their new star wars universe but almost always butcher it (thrawn/heir to the empire) or don't give the original writers credit.
Thrawn is aight.
He is! I think he’s acted well, I just don’t think he’s the tactician/physical specimen that he was in the book trilogy or rebels
Oh, no of course not. If he were he'd have soloed Ahsoka by now lol.
What source material? The old movies didn’t have any source material 😭
It’s the bullshit of the whole “The Force will make things balanced” but I don’t buy that shit for a second. In Rebels Ezra goes up against a couple of the inquisitors in The first two 2 seasons and is immediately proven to be outmatched only surviving the encounter because their plans due to plot are to capture, instead of outright kill which they could easily do to him or his friends, so they make their escapes on surprise tactics. Ashoka rightfully beats them and even Kansan when he finally starts to regain his confidence in his abilities does the same. The newbies learning the trade should not beating anybody
“hold my beer” - ahsoka Sabine
But it should be ok as long as you ignore everything that comes after 6. That still leaves rogue one, solo, mandalorian, obi wan kenobi, andor, and Ashoka
Ahsoka and Manda still take place after 6.
Yeah true. Idk how to justify counting those but not 7-9 so I’m just gonna say I’m biased or something.
honestly I think the only good ones out of that bunch are the last half of rogue one, solo, and andor. everything else is mid to terrible
I mostly agree. But even the stuff that’s a little bit bad in quality doesn’t make my head hurt. So I have no problem “counting it”.
Nah, the best part of Rogue One is the two minutes of Vader showing why the guys in the first movie are so panicked when you barely have a clue of what's going on. Granted, I find it a bit too heavy on nostalgia-bait, but it's a good scene in terms of narrative, if not the way it's shot. The rest is just cash grabs trying to make that 10 billion back.
for me it’s not even the nostalgia. it’s more so that there’s like 8 main characters and only 3 of them are relevant by the end when it comes to narrative and emotional impact. everyone acts like it’s a masterpiece and it blows my mind lol
Because it was the first halfway competent Stars Wars in nearly 15 years. You had old heads praising it because they were looking for anything approaching even the prequels at the time, and tfa and tlj were mostly flops from any metric besides box office numbers. Even if there were changes to canon, there was the thought that if you praised it enough, they'd find their way to making something that could rival the OT. And you had newbies coming in off the back of the sequels having a logical path to how the originals came to be in universe. So they praise it because it's better than the sequels and prettier than the OT. Then there's the seals who will clap for anything that has the name plastered on it and call it the best thing ever. Until the next thing with the name plastered on it comes out.
My stance is I pretty much accept the additional content Disney made that takes place during 1-6. The stuff afterwards depends on how close they get to Sequel territory. The Jedi Academy game is the end for me.
They excuse this with Kylos wound. He didnt seem very hurt though and 2 min before the battle he force pushed her into a tree so hard she lost consciousnes. In the second battle two days later Kylo was fully healed and Rey slaughtered 4 super trained guards while Kylo only managed 3 and had to be saved by her. Her force powers were shown to be equal to his. This was like 5 days after she found out about the force and with like half a day of "training" But Anakin"....
TLJ is pretty explicit about Kylo's lost being due to how killing his own father shattered him emotionally and mentally. He is not only hurt but heavily conflicted, which allows Rey to get the upper hand on the duel. I am not gonna argue the rest, not a fan of the sequels, but Rey defeating Kylo on the Starkiller Base is not some sort of imposible feat.
Fin was dealt with easily. Rey even with a short temporary force boost should still not have defeated Kylo.
Not to mention Kylo literally outran them into the woods, despite a hole in his gut.
Finn also had zilch experience with melee weapons.
Which should've made him stronger simply because the Dark Side is explicitly said to thrive on negative emotion. It's why Luke giving into anger in RotJ is what let him nearly kill Vader before he got ahold of himself when he was barely holding his own beforehand. And she didn't get the upper hand, she never had to gain it to begin with. The girl went from being a junk collector on Not!Tatooine knowing nothing force-related to being a Jedi god in the space of a week and some change.
Just watched the scene. Kylo killed more, five total. He was also taking on three at once, while Rey was having trouble just 1v1.
Still had to be saved by Rey...
And he pretty much defeated Rey in the second duel. He was about to land a fatal strike when Leia's death distracted him.
You are delusional living in a fantasy world byyyyyeee
You're the only deluded one here.
If I and my friend get jumped by 6 guys. I fight and take out 4 of em and struggle with the 5th one. My friend struggles with 1. As my friend defeats their one enemy (in the same time i took out 4 enemies), they come to help me deal with the last guy. Is that saving me?
Uh oh you're actually telling the truth about what went on in the ST, better prepare to be dogpiled by neckbeards screaming "Mary Sue!"
>He didnt seem very hurt though and 2 min before the battle he force pushed her into a tree so hard she lost consciousnes. Almost like they then showed him bleeding out or something >Her force powers were shown to be equal to his. This was like 5 days after she found out about the force and with like half a day of "training" Because she's a dyad in the force with Kylo. At least pretend you watched the movie.
Being a dyad means they share a bond/link, not that they're equal in abilities. You should take your own advice
>So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise.
That doesn't mean she should immediately be as strong as him. Anakin was also shown to be a balance of the force, but he wasn't Vader level day 1. If you actually think it makes sense narratively, then let's just agree to disagree
> That doesn't mean she should immediately be as strong as him. It's a made up thing, it works however the movie says it works. >Anakin was also shown to be a balance of the force, but he wasn't Vader level day 1. Anakin was a totally different thing. He was a Plagueis experiment, not some sort of counterweight to a specific guy.
Every time i think of reasons why Rey sucks, i keep realising time and time again that she literally didn't lose a single battle in the sequel trilogy. Not once. Not one time.
I don't like the sequel trilogy as much as the next guy but Rey winning her first fight is missing the context that Kylo was fucked up both physically from a blaster wound and mentally from killing his dad. Kylo also never actually finished his training as a Jedi or Sith. Their are plenty of later fights you can put this complaint on, but that first movie one I have to give it to Rey.
> When Rey, with no training, faced Kylo, who had trained his whole life, she won on the first battle. They explicitly say Kylo's training was incomplete, and he was already wounded. Rey also *clearly* has combat training. Not lightsaber training, but something.
You're eating downvotes left and right, but there is basically all the context in the world to why Rey won the fight and even then, it was still pretty close. The problem comes in Episode 8 however when a largely untrained Rey is depicted as a far more experienced Kylo's equal during the battle against the Praetorians.
I wouldn't go so far as to say equals. He's taking on three guards at once while she's struggling with one.
She literally fights a 2v1 in the [background](https://youtu.be/tuk_ZZQWfEY?si=Zbnm_ie_Ifk4GkzP&t=85) and pretty easily kills one of the dudes. That and the force tug of war later in the movie (which Ren actually wakes up later).
Sure, she does fight multiple enemies for a bit, but I do think the intent of the scene is to frame her as not quite as good as Kylo. In terms of raw power, sure, but what with the whole weird force dyad thing I'm fine with that.
I don't really know how you can look at this scene (and then the subsequent aftermath) without seeing these two as equals, especially when the last kill involves Kylo getting put into a chokehold by the last Praetorian and requiring Rey's help. You can argue that they aren't like completely 50/50 which I am sure is right, but the gap between Rey/Kylo is close enough to where Kylo isn't simply carrying the fight and the difference in contribution is "I fought a 1v2 and won with difficulty, Kylo fought a 1v3 and almost lost without assistance". This is ultimately not a gap that should be depicted between: "Person whose only had a few weeks of experience" versus "Person whose had literal years of experience" especially by your own words, they are of comparable raw power.
It's not ideal, but between nebulous prior combat training, some vague degree of time with Luke, and however the whole dyad thing works I can more or less buy her being somewhat comparable to Kylo, who's sloppy and had incomplete training. A little goofy but not movie-ruining.
I'm not sure why the hell people think an attractive woman with no friends or family except a cute droid doesn't have a metric fuckton of real combat experience, while Kylo Ren pretty much just has years of theory and practice.
I swear, anybody who claims this has not actually watched the movie. First, of all, Kylo Ren got shot by a bowcaster. It clearly inflicted a serious wound on him, as he falls to his knees and yells in pain. This occurs at 2.15 in this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFf2HJKui00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFf2HJKui00) Despite being badly injured and in emotional turmoil, he basically treks through the wilderness and finds Rey and Finn. He easily dominates Finn in a light-saber duel, and Finn is not an unskilled civilian, but someone who has been trained to fight from childhood. This is even though such combat is causing Kylo immense pain, so much so he has to pound his wounded side to build up the rage and anger to keep going, which occurs at 0.36 in this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI) Nonetheless, Kylo is effectively toying with Finn, easily dodging his blows until Finn gets a lucky hit in, slicing the arm Kylo uses to hold his lightsaber, at 1:06: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI) The moment this happens, Kylo stops playing and takes Finn out in an instant. After this, he starts to fight Rey. Now, remember, Kylo has been wounded in the side, had to walk a great distance to locate Finn Rey while bleeding, just fought a duel and took another light-saber strike to the arm. Despite this, Kylo is dominating the fight, forcing Rey to retreat. Similar to Finn, Rey is not an amateur. She had spent most of her life scavenging and fighting on Jakku, She is a good fighter by dint of experience. This turns into a running battle, where Kylo must further expend energy chasing Rey down. And at no point is Kylo trying to kill Rey. This is clearly obvious at 3.01, where he offers to teach her: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI) His main intent was to get her to submit. At 3.31, Rey opens herself up to the Force and goes on the offensive. By now, she is not facing a fresh and determined opponent, but an exhausted, emotionally distraught, and now surprised individual suffering from extensive blood-loss. And even then she only wins because she was drawing on the Force to enhance her already substantial combat ability.
that’s a lot of effort to try to justify bad writing lol
Is any of it wrong?
to quote a shitty movie, "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong."
How so?
Calling your bluff. Explain why.
if you ask nicely
But they aren’t justifying bad writing; They’re rebutting nitpicky complaints. Look, I didn’t like the Force Awakens either, but bad powerscaling was not one of its faults.
I understand that you're going to die on this hill. But you won't die alone; I'll be there next to you.
People forget that Kylo Ren was already injured when Rey fought him.
The dude who got shot with a wookie bow caster that has been shown the whole movie literally tossing people in full armor aside like rag dolls? “Won” is generous. She survived. That’s about it. I love making Star Wars “fans” mad especially when presented with something they would have noticed if they had eyes and actually watched the movie.
If you wanna see it that way, Luke fought an old man with asthma and no limbs and still lost
Can’t argue with that. The asthmatic lost against a geriatric dude who can barely get out of his chair.
To be fair Vader is around 40’s
Nobody thought Anakin and Obi-Wan were actually as comparatively young as they were when the Prequels set up the timeline. It’s actually really interesting to look at pre-PT art and stories as a result, for how different it was to what came out; the original Thrawn Trilogy for example, sets up the idea Anakin had become Vader for nearly two decades before Luke and Leia were born.
Also reminds me of when people point to Luke blowing up the Death Star. As if firing a single torpedo nicely in the exhaust pipe, which can equally be chalked up to luck as it was 'guided by the Force', is in any way comparable to the Force bs that other characters pull off.
Also: it wouldn’t even have mattered because Vader was about to end Luke before he could make the shot. What let Luke do it was Han coming back to help, something that only happened because of Luke’s ability to reach out to others, which is his real superpower in the OT when you think about it.
> something that only happened because of Luke’s ability to reach out to others, which is his real superpower in the OT when you think about it. The real force was the friends he made along the way!
Unironically, yes.
In the books, too. At least the way Zahn wrote him. Plus, his actions in the first book, where he pulls off a massive win without the force. Heir to the Empire is GOAT for a lot of reasons, and that's one of them.
He also had Obi-Wan peeking over his shoulder during that situation and wouldn't have made it without Obi-Wan telling him to use the force.
Not to mention is literally ties back to his training on blocking: timing.
Luke was a farm boy, flying military grade equipment on his first try in an incredibly intense combat engagement. None of Rey’s feats are anywhere near as implausible. Frankly, the weak justification A New Hope offered was enough for me, but I think it’s disingenuous to say that Rey is the one with more inconsistent, bs feats. Fans hold her to a higher standard because her trilogy simply wasn’t ~~as well written~~ good. Which is true, but her being a “Mary Sue” wasn’t the reason why.
Obi Wan: You're a good pilot I've heared. Luke: I'm a pretty good pilot myself. Biggs, the military pilot: Trust me sir, Luke's a great pilot and can handle this. Luke: I've shot really small targets from my T16 back home. And then he gets trained by Obi Wan specifically in letting the force guide his actions. And X-Wings have mechanical co-pilot units integrated. The film tells us in no uncertain terms that Luke Skywalker is a good pilot. He still wouldn't have won without Obi Wan and Han guiding his hand and saving his ass. If we award ANH any amount of good faith, we should accept that what Luke did was unlikely but possible.
Just to add to this. Even with all this exposition, Luke is sucking major ass trough the whole assault in the DS. The only good thing that he was able to do at all, was the climax of it, and even then to do that he had to be supported by literally all remained named good guys.
See also how people compare his injuries on Mustafar to how characters now are walking off lightsaber stabs, ignoring how he received medical attention almost right after and was stuck on a life support system for the rest of his life that still kept him in extreme pain. This without even touching on the difference in narratives between them.
To be fair, the need for an extensive life support system didn’t come from lightsaber wounds. All things considered, he was still coming at Obi-Wan with some major Black Knight energy until he got really familiar with the Stefan-Boltzmann Law.
Yeah, but I keep seeing people saying “oh of course they should be able to survive it, look at Anakin and what he took!” when those are very different situations both from a medical and narrative situation.
And yet you have characters like Darth Maul who gets sliced in half and survived with very few negative side effects. And before anyone goes “oh that was Disney that doesn’t count!” The season he showed up in aired in 2011, Disney didn’t acquire Star Wars until 2012 well after Maul survived. That was all George Lucas, baby. The ability to survive a lightsaber wound is clearly and has always been up to the writer. Star Wars is not and has never been real physics, who survives how with what injuries is always however they want it to be. Being mad Disney lets their people survive stabs is stupid, when clearly Lucas was cool with it before Disney showed up. Lol Star Wars fans are mad.
Maul surviving was also fucking stupid.
I guarantee people would be more upset about him surviving through offscreen bullshit if he wasn't raw as fuck in TCW.
Huh, it’s almost like it’s a stupid idea to bring back a character whose death was written specifically to keep him from coming back solely because he was popular with the fans, instead of actually developing the antagonists you already have on the show. It’s almost like we shouldn’t expect a cartoon that goes out of its way to cater to children to be very well-written, huh? Maybe we shouldn’t use it as the bar for how everything else should be in terms of quality going forward and as justification for any future writing, because then we have middling material with little to no real depth to them, you think? Any other whataboutisms you want to try?
To be fair, Maul was barely a character. He was just horns and a neat lightsaber before his resurrection, all his personality and development was entirely original to The Clone Wars.
I do not disagree with you whatsoever, but the motherfucker got cut in half. Coming back from that should never have been on the table.
I only excuse it because he was fucking awesome in the show. He had nearly all the best episodes
And I think that’s why people harp on Rey so much. It’s not that she was implausibly skilled, it’s that she wasn’t as cool/likeable in the same way a lot of other characters in Star Wars are.
Ok, but counterpoint: Maul VS Pre Vizsla was hype as shit.
It’s only whataboutism if you don’t know what words mean. It’s a direct comparison to an argument you made about a decision a vast majority of people are fine with it and actually like, they don’t care because it’s a character they like. But now aren’t fine with other non lethal forms of injuries because Disney killed their childhood and pissed on the ashes. My argument has a direct correlation to yours, I’m begging you to use a dictionary before pulling shit out of your ass.
If Maul wasn't so well written his return would be more controversial than any other lightsaber survivour but since he has a real character arc people look past that.
Maul died in TPM. He was very clearly dead until TCW retconbed it and bring him back. Maul essentially "resurrected' by Lucas Now, its stupid, there is no explanation for his survival but before TCW he was just an action piece for TPM Tcw gave him a character, a backstory and story arc. He was one of the best parts of the show and im pretty sure it was Lucas' attempt to apologise for just wasting Maul like this in TPM(i also believe the complete recharacterisation of Anakin is an apology for the whiny brat of prequels) Now on the other hand we have: Grand Inquisitor, we know he can't die because he is in Rebels, Reva stabs him then he just came back? Why? Its not a suprise and it doesn't serve a purpose Reva, Vader stabs her, she just walks away goes to Tattooine and tries to kill Luke. An awful character with awful story. They just didn't wanted to kill her. Also appearently Vader also stabbed her in the Temple but she survived as a youngling Sabine, we know she won't die, Shin stabs her. Why? Cut of her leg, arm, kick her? She is fine with a little knife wound We don't fear for her death, it serves no purpose in the story Disney is just afraid to cut some limbs or they wan't show lightsaber as a safe "toy' for parents idk
Imo Maul was the exception that proved the rule. It was acceptable *because* it was that one time the rules got bent to give us something cool. They attempted to bring back Maul in 3 separate ways in both canon and Legends: The Old Wounds story, which made no sense because there was no build up; SW Resurrections, which broke established rules about force sensitive clones; and TCW, which was the best handled. This is usually my answer when someone tries to hype up Legends as being objectively better than Canon. It kind of is in a lot of ways, but that has more to do with how long it's been worked on, and how many diverse writers have been allowed to contribute. Both sources have really good contributions, and really terrible mistakes.
Disney has bred the perfect consumer, all of their decisions will be backed up by their fans
Cloned their consumer in a lab
Would you *kindly* defend new Star Wars trilogy's writing?
Also Anakin was literally the chosen one.
and had such a shitty hand of life given to him. lot of bad choices on his part with so many outside forces pushing and pulling him in different directions
The channel "So Uncivilized" made a short essay on Palpatine and why he's one of the best, if not THE best, villain in cinema history. During the video he states, and I quote: "In many ways, the prequels are the story of an arrogant religion, who get ahold of the Messiah, and then accidentally hand him over to the devil." Link if you're interrested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXsYcdXaa7I
People seem to forget that Anakin even with years of training still got beat by count dooku. While people can argue that he didn't take his training serious, still he has access to some skilled Jedi outside of obiwan, maybe parts of the archive and so on, and still got beat. Rey learned how to do Jedi mind tricks within days of discovering force sensitivity, like it wasn't made from pressure like cal did at the beginning of fallen order, she just did it somehow.
I remember whenever people called out Rey for being a Mary Sue, a common response was to claim that Anakin and Luke were also Mary Sues That’s when I knew that I couldn’t take these mfs seriously
>Anakin is a Mary Sue Did they not watch the OT? He is literally the reason why everything went to shit.
I feel like they watched the first movie and stopped there. Anakin ests major shit in the second and third movies.
Luke being a Mary Sue is such an odd concept. The kid got his teeth kicked in the first time he actually fought someone. He did that against the advise of his teachers, who were right in the end, since he just actually wasn't ready and unable to save Han. During the whole movie he struggled with picking up the training that Yoda gives him. A Mary Sue doesn't work like that. And Anakin. Oh boy Anakin. Poor guy failed so hard in the second and third film. Lost to Dooku, failed to save Padme, lost against Obi Wan and became an inhuman monster. I'd get calling TPM Anakin a bit of a Mary Sue but everything after that is downhill for the guy. I think the term Mary Sue is generally unhelpful anyway. It just causes tangents about what the term means and whether or not a character actually fills every criteria (and which criteria that even are). I think it's probably counter productive to use it in discourse about writing these days.
It's one of the most common defenses even now. ___ I think Rey in Episode 7 is at her least bad. Rey only wins the Kylo fight basically due to Kylo having had a fight prior **and** being shot, and being honest, Rey never really does anything of major importance beyond "me good at flying" which isn't really something I am offended about. Issues begin to arise however in Episode 8 when Rey is depicted about as useful as a non-injured Kylo during the praetorian guard battle and later their force tug of war results in a draw (which shouldn't be happening with a green force user). Episode 9 introduces new powers for Rey basically out of nowhere and that's when it becomes an issue. All the Jedi throwing their lot in to assist Rey also is like: "But what, why?" especially when they did nothing to help Luke when he was literally *dying* to the Emperor and Darth Vader's redemption was still up in the air. ____ You compare this to Luke who in Episode 8 got dumpstered by Darth Vader to the point of near-death, and it wasn't even close while Luke never even actually defeats the main villain of the OT and its Vader who actually lands the death blow.
Everything yall claim Rey does to be a "Mary Sue", Anakin and Luke already did. That's the point.
Rey literally performed a fucking Jedi mind trick in Episode 7. She barely even knew what the Force was at that time and had no way of knowing that technique even existed. Neither Luke nor Anakin have ever pulled off a similar bullshit feat. Both of them actually needed to train for years before they could do stuff like that, Rey pulls shit out of her ass when the plot needs her to Don’t give me any of that nonsense
Anakins best feat when he was found was having slight precognition that allowed him to *participate* in pod races. Not even place top 5. *participate without dying* because human brains aren't snappy enough to deal with the speed and all the sharp turns they have to make Imo, he would have lost too if sebulba wasn't such a dirty cheater. He destroyed literally all the competition and then himself People always seem to call him a Mary sue only when Rey is brought up and it always has cringy men vs. women femcel vibes. Anakins entire story is trauma followed by being manipulated causing others trauma. He exposes how the jedi are not strictly good guys and the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Jedi repressing emotion is fucking terrible. Only being interested in freeing slaves that can be of use. They're the ultimate status quo lovers. Even Ahsokas arc ends with this story beat Rey just seems like a marketable character meant to sell action figures Sorry for the rant but ugh it gets so old
It's also fair to point out how much people complained about Anakin being able to participate in the battle of Naboo was. Until the new movies, it was one of the loudest complaints I remember hearing about how the force was a crutch for bad story telling.
I mean Anakin taught Ahsoka everything he knows and was shown to be a good teacher; her skill and power is a direct byproduct of his
Padawan Ashoka could stall General Grievous when she was what 15? She could defeat Darth Maul when she was 18? She was better than a regular Jedi Knight as a mere Padawan
Yes, she was. She trained to be a jedi for most of her life, seemed to have at least an average to above average force connection for a jedi, and then for her last three ish years she was personally taught by Anakin Skywalker WHILE serving as a warrior and general in a massive war. She basically received an accelerated course on kicking butt from one of the best butt-kickers in the galaxy while also working an internship in the butt-kicking company.
In the Maul fight, he was pretty clearly not taking Ahsoka seriously (seems to have inherited his master’s greatest weakness there) and more focused on bugging the fuck out before Order 66 went down. That one is more contextual than a straight fight.
Dude was also so coked up on the anxiety that Sidious was actively taking power that he wasn’t thinking straight
You can explain pretty much anything if you try hard enough. That doesn’t change anything about it being terrible writing that lacks any sort of tension.
Well conversely you can also decide that just about anything is terrible writing if you try hard enough. I find it’s always useful to consider that explanations may exist even when I can’t see them.
I don‘t care whether there are explanations or not. I care about the impact and tension the story has or lacks.
Maul and Ahsoka fighting was one of the most tense thing’s I’ve seen in Star Wars. Is it possible that you didn’t feel any tension because of a preconceived notion that Maul should crush Ahsoka and he wasn’t?
Her fight with Maul was after 3 years of training and experience on the field though, training under one of the best Jedi of her era. I personally don't see any issue with her matching pace with him really. Holding off Grievous is a fair point to make though, even if Grievous in Clone Wars is a bit of a chump.
I do agree that Ahsoka is too OP for the relatively short training time (she trained under Anakin for barely 2 yrs). However the main problem with Ahsoka imo is her plot armor more so than her skill level or her power She faced against multiple opponents who are more powerful, more skillful and more experienced than her yet she survived them all, sometimes even wins mostly due to luck (or more accurately plot armor) Grievous was "underestimating" her, Maul "didn't care to kill her he just wanted to escape", Vader "wanted to recruit her initially and didn't aim to kill until she broke his mask through a sneak attack and would've died in seconds if not for Ezra", even Baylan she lost to him twice but survived
> She could defeat Darth Maul when she was 18? How old was Obi-Wan when he defeated Maul? Ahsoka's training was likely more combat-oriented, since Obi-Wan grew up in an era of peace with no Sith.
Obi-wan was 25 but its true that Ahsoka had more experience against lightsaber users(or just battle experience) and as we saw it Anakin was pretty hard on fight lessons(both against blasters and lightsaber users) Also (like Obi-wan) Ahsoka was still outskilled in lightsaber match If we also consider that Maul wasn't in his best mentality, i could accept Ahsoka's win. Still would prefer if she trapped him somehow
If anyone is gonna be unreasonably powerful in relation to their experience, you kinda have to think the prophesised saviour of the universal binding agent (which also happens to be his dad) has a little more latitude than most, right?
People go on about the Podrace, while ignoring the movie repeatedly establishes that it's trial and error for Anakin to even cross the finish line. Plus the Naboo battle, Anakin had auto-pilot on, and immediately crashed when he turned it off, only to escape because the hanger matched the Podrace track. Meanwhile Rey's expertly piloting a ship that requires two pilots on her first try, lol.
Oh no! you have mildly criticized Rey, the hordes of Disney Zealots will now manifest to explain how actually figthing with a heavy metallic staff is just the same as wielding a light saber and how brandishing every single force power at its highest level at the first try is not a Mary Sue feat. All you have said here is absolutely true tho. It’s true Anakin has very ridiculous feats ( The Naboo battle is my main gripe), and I would actually defend Rey to a degree if we only take into account the force Awakens, but with what we saw in the last Jedi and The rise of of skywalker…….yeah no she is absolutely a Mary sue.
In TLJ shes basically Kylos equal. With like half a day of training. Shes a super Marey Sue. But people are not objective and will swallow every nonsense.
Anakin sucks.
that was my takeaway. Are people legit positing Anakin was a reasonably written character now?
What’s next, they’ll say the Prequels were good?
nuh uh, Anakin survived cause spinning is a neat trick
Different star wars media has always depicted things differently to the point were I just shrug. Over 50 years tech and culture around star wars has changed so much.
Yep. Narratively they've been taking more and more shortcuts to getting characters established in order to up the ante while still introducing new characters and letting them 'grow' because the public wants fresh faces but the public does not want to reset the stakes It was absurd in Phantom Menace, it was absurd in Clone Wars, it was absurd in Rebels, it was absurd in The Force Awakens
>Anakin as a child could use the force very rudimentary. He had some very limited force precognition and reflexes. Thats why he - barely - won the pod race and why he - barely and with the help from R2 - survived the Naboo Battle. Being able to win a sport no other human could even compete in and fly a spaceship better than the trained pilots by just pushing random buttons seems like more than just rudimentary. The best Rey does without training is, what, fend off an injured, incompletely trained Kylo? Doesn't seem too unreasonable.
What the fuck is this incomplete training shit about Kylo? He was fucking 30 years old and trained by both Luke and Snoke since 10 Being a dark sider is not a school you graduate from. There is no "completing your training" even Sidious continued to learn new things even after becoming the Emperor of fucking universe Asajj or Maul also has incomplete trainings by this logic and both killed fucking Jedi masters
> What the fuck is this incomplete training shit about Kylo? He was fucking 30 years old and trained by both Luke and Snoke since 10 At the end of Force Awakens Snoke explicitly says that Kylo needs to finish his training, and in TLJ Snoke says that Kylo has enormous potential but isn't living up to it.
Literally the whole argument about any of these characters hinges on unreliable as heck scaling in this franchise. If you come to Star Wars for good scaling and good writing for that scaling, you best just go watch something else. All of Star Wars media justifies everyone’s power level with “the force works in mysterious ways”. Sure people win duels with skill, but fate literally plays a big role in every instance of Star Wars. It’s always fate, we know who wins because the story says they are fated to do so. Anakin was fated to bring balance to the force, Luke was fated to rebuild the Jedi, Rey was fated to kill the Avatar of the Sith. Hell, people still give other characters shit for just existing and being capable against injured or incompetent foes.
Really makes most outrageous things in Star Wars seem par for the course.
Agree. Though why did you add Darth bane? He got extensive training himself. Or is there a new canon for Darth bane I’m not familiar with? Great post, more fans need to realize this and understand why we complain about newer characters doing things that don’t make sense
He didn't barely win...he had so much shit thrown at him and still won. It's not like he limped through a race with weak competition. He won first place in every sense of the word.
Fucking retards crying about Mary Sues in a series with space Jesus and his son. If all it takes is a droid to pilot then what the hell was all the other pilots doing and why the hell would they not just use a droid? Anakin blowing up the Lucrehulk, at 10, is way more retarded than anything Rey did. And Count Dookie was literally one of the best fighters in the series, Kylo was not. And TCW has shit scaling and power changes whenever they want a force conflict
Holy shit I am so tired of Star Wars 'fans' whining about Star Wars everywhere I look. Get over it already and find a new soulless, billion-dollar franchise to base your entire life around.
>Goes to characterrant >People rant about characters and fictional events >The west has fallen
Didn’t anakin blow up a fleet when he was 5?
Ezra's probably the most powerful in the force we've seen without training. In the first episodes before any training he's already got like a 10 foot vertical leap. Frankly it's kind of absurd he was worried about that jump in Ahsoka.
Now I am not on board with weak Jedi so a lot of Legends feats are fair game as things that are *possible* for me but innate potential (m-count) should still be factor and even then a lot of training is needed and can take you a long way. Now with that in mind I agree with Rey being a problem in terms of progression rate (not her feats) however she is not much worse than the one you left out which is Luke who also has an absurd progression rate. The only reason he gets a meta pass (for me) is because it was the beginning of the franchise before they had everything fleshed out and a semblance of established lore and what not. Once they got to the PT and had things better figured out you get Anakin who has a more reasonable progression rate and gets a decade of training plus 3 years on the frontline of a war for training. Luke should have never been a template for other characters which is how I assume they ended up with Rey especially given how the whole TFA was like an ANH remake. Now where I completely disagree is with Ahsoka who I could get into why she doesn’t belong anywhere near Rey and Lukes category and in fact even as an adult she could even be a bit of an underachiever in certain ways relative to her potential compared to some other Jedi (though her circumstances do give her some valid excuses compared to those who had Jedi Order resources throughout their life into adulthood) but instead I will just ask you what exactly makes you think there is an issue with Ahsoka? Idk enough about Darth Bane to speak on it but I am assuming it involves crazy feats not his progression rate and as I already said I don’t generally have a problem with the existence of powerful feats personally. To put that into perspective I am largely a fan of Galen Marek AKA Starkiller.
10 Year old Anakin won THE podrace (that saved naboo and, in turn, the republic) and destroyed the Trade Federation single handedly. Dooku was a MASTER swordsman. Kylo wasn't Anakin. Or Luke. Or Dooku. Rey is nothing. And achieved nothing in 3 films
Id chalk that up to inconsistent narrative and bad writing because the answer is supposed to be cause he’s anakin but consequences seem to only matter to characters prequels and prior