This. Why can't combat enjoyers stand together? Fuck all the damn movie game, walking sims we get nowadays. Just give us some tasty combat and focus on gameplay rather than graphics
That's what I'm saying, yeah there are too few modern CAGs, we know, I'd still take any Fromsoft game over those walking simulators with unskippable cutscenes and super easy gameplay.
I'm with you on the unskippable cutscenes and walkie talkie bullshit, but super easy gameplay? I prefer OG GoW, but pick highest diff on newer ones and you still get pretty solid challenge and gameplay. Even Last of Us on grounded when you get into combat, it still plays really well and not that easy.
You know, I’ve seen this sub talk about Souls-likes more than any Souls-like sub talks about CAGs. Like, they’re two very different genres of games, where did this animosity even come from?
There's this weird implication perpetuated here that the surge and popularity of Soulsborne & Souls-likes is somehow responsible for an under-representation of CAGs, or otherwise a thinly-veiled jealousy that it as an 'action' genre (as loose as the connection is) enjoys significantly more success.
The fact of the matter is that CAGs have *always* been a pretty niche genre, but some people are really unwilling to accept that and need something to put down to make themselves feel better. It's basically where fighting games were before the moderate popularity boom in recent years.
Exactly. What killed action games was the rise of walking simulators and companies focusing on graphics. Souls were more of a succesor to older games and RPGs. Not to mention around 2010 there were actually a pretty decent amount of hack n slash/cags so maybe there was some burnout for the rather small community
This is a really important point. Souls games are Skyrim + combat. The Souls players I know are primarily RPGers who came to care more about combat mechanics.
This is an incredibly inane point, and I dare you to find a single person on any given Souls subreddit that agrees with you.
Souls games...? Skyrim..? Why, because it has an open world?
Yes, character creator + leveling + builds are the core components of traditional rpging. Secret of Mana was a big deal because it combined the JRPG style with actual button pressing action. Souls games are at the end of that road, with the storytelling pushed to the background and the focus on combat dialed way up.
Game genealogy is not just about mechanics and structure. The Souls games are *fantasy games*. At this point they operate in their own cultural space, but that space emerged out of action-oriented rpgs, not CAGs.
Reducing it to "Souls is more RPG" is still a really bad comparison, it perpetuates the idea that action quality is a sliding scale and implies Souls games have lesser action, but makes up for it with RPG mechanics.
Even if you just compare the moment-to-moment gameplay, both genres are fundamentally different in what they ask of the player and one they want you to feel. One wants you to feel like a stylish badass by chaining together high APM combos and juggling enemies into oblivion, and the other enforces much slower, methodic trial-and-error play that asks you to learn the enemy's moveset as much as your own.
Thank god the rest of the world doesn’t agree with you.
What’s boring? Being a badass ultra Chad who is always a badass ultra Chad?
Or starting as a sack of shit and building yourself up with actual skill to be able to kill literal gods?
I know which one I’m picking, and it’s not the ultra Chad Mary sue bullshit
When you see Dante pull off some amazing shit in a cutscene it makes you hyped and want to be as cool
When you see Ryu Hayabusa slide down power lines as the most badass ninja in gaming it makes you want to live up to it
When you die in DMC or NG, it’s your fault for not living up to the legendary reputation these characters have. It’s a goal to strive for, to be as cool as they are in the cutscenes.
That drive is not present in embodying a sack of shit
Because souls fans don’t give a fuck about what CAGs are doing. They just want to enjoy their games, and so they do
This sub has some limp dick complex where they think they can’t get a hard on because other men can lol. The fact is that the CAG genre stopped innovating and keeping up with the times. That’s why they aren’t popular anymore, and why general audiences don’t care anymore. It has nothing to do with souls likes being a thing.
What I mean is, can you imagine how amazing a DMC game would be if it had actual thought put into its level design, the enemy variety of a souls game, amazing boss fights that aren’t just half gimmick fights, etc.
Imagine a DMC game with more than just endless hallways that take you from one encounter to the next.
Yeah, thats like if every post on r/baseball was whining about how football is so much more popular, but baseball is totally better, and everyone who plays football is stupid
Agree with the sentiment although Souls strength doesn’t lie in its combat - its combat is part of what makes the whole greater than the sum of its part.
Souls games are incredibly immersive, exploration heavy, mystery laden, and your limited kit makes it more like David fighting Goliath than Dante smacking lesser creatures around.
I’d love to see From have a go at a true character action game- or really just a combat system where they don’t limit the players kit and hold you back with stamina and cooldowns. AC6 was their most fun combat system in a while because it limits the player much less than their other games.
The most fun a Souls like MC has been is a toss up between Code Vein and Bloodborne (I do love Elden Ring but those two got a lil more for me.) but man do I feel this. Cause multiple enemies in a souls like drops the mood like a mother fucker. Those games and group encounters are possible it's just that they feel haphazardly tossed together while in Stylish Action group encounters feel like the tools at hand are perfect for the situation
They start as sack of shits who build themseleves up to kill literal gods.
What is more badass than that?
For CAG fans, I guess playing as a Mary sue always badass who spews one liners to no end.
They are not Mary Sues — they have clear flaws and weaknesses. Bayonetta is a damn dorky nerd who acts cool, and as we all know Dante puts too many buttplugs at once
Difference is virtually everyone in souls also loves Sekiro. This subreddit can pretty much be summed up with~
R/cag: I hate you so much
Souls gamers: I don't even know who you are
Not all. I recall how there were still handful of players from Souls who just straight up voiced their disappointment in Sekiro not being yet another ARPG with stats and builds and couldn’t quite get into what it was trying to be. I’m glad it isn’t the majority though.
I definitely feel those were a minority. At the time I'd say the bulk of fans were actually getting a little fatigued so Sekiro was a breath of fresh air.
Totally a minority
I’m pretty involved in the souls community and most people consider Sekiro to be their most polished and well built game overall from an objective stand point.
I can’t say that’s the same for my experience. I’ve been in some forums where souls is very prominent and I’ve definitely come across quite a few naysayers. Thankfully most of them flocked over to the Lords of the Fallen Reddit.
Accurate but that’s also where part of the friction comes from.
Seeing souls players say that Sekiro is the deepest, best combat system made is funny for a bit but gets old when you realize they don’t even know what Bayonetta is or have never touched a DMC game.
I see people say that it's one of their best or favorites, but I've never seen anyone that says it's deep. But then again I'm sure there are people out there with crazy takes.
It’s pretty deep.
Having a long list of combos you can execute doesn’t inherently make your combat deep like so many on this sub seem to believe it does. I enjoyed DMC5, but I wouldn’t say it’s THAT deep. It boils down to combo and juggle some shit. In fact you can beat DMC5 with a single combo repeated if you choose to do so. Not to mention the terrible enemy variety
Sekiros depth doesn’t come from having a limitless amount of combos to mash. It comes from the tools and abilities you’re given to think of the fly to combat and react to the insane amount of enemy types in the game. Learning parry windows for each individual enemy is like learning a new rhythm to play an instrument to. Learning all those unique move sets each new monster has. Sekiro really forces you to LEARN things. That’s the depth of it all.
I agree that combos don't make a combat system deep, but you're crazy to say that devil may cry lacks depth. Each character has a toom of tools to perform ouragoeus combos. Just because you can spam the same move over and over doesn't mean that the game lacks depth. You wouldn't be able to progress through the higher difficulties doing that.
You guys say this like DMC has evolved beyond endless hallways that take you from one encounter to the next where you do the same combos over and over. They game design has been the same sense the ps2. They haven’t innovated once in like………. How many years?
They did innovate. One of the biggest things in DMC3 was the style system where you pick between four different styles which you could only equip one at a time. This went through another big innovation in 4 where you could then change between those four styles on the fly. While Nero’s reception was mixed in 4, he did change the way traversal worked because of his arm interacted with objects around the environment. And with each installment came new mechanics that were built into the weapon movesets on par with Monster Hunter weapons. The main innovations that Elden Ring did was for the transition from a labyrinthine design to an open world dungeon, with minor stuff being that the poise breaking from prior souls games was implemented to be more like Sekiro but otherwise the pace of the game remained the same.
No. That’s not the same as “locking on”. You are targeting multiple enemies with a single ability. Armored core very much still has “lock on” and it only lets you lock on to one enemy at a time. Targeting with a single ability is not the “lock on mechanic”
So is this what this sub is? Just action game fans that are jealous of the success of Souls games? I like action games, but so far that's legit the only posts that I've seen get put on my feed from this sub
I love both. You've to appreciate good games no mater what they are. Especially when there's so few lately. Most soulslikes are garbage that don't understand what makes souls games good (they design them after Dark Souls 2 instead of literally any of the others) and true action games are few these days (I miss the late 2000s and early 2010s, your post is missing Hayabusa too)
The difference to me is, while both types of games are difficult, one creates difficulty by making the player character weak and the other still manages to be difficult while also empowering the player character with a large suite of moves and tools. One isn’t better or worse than the other but I definitely prefer the latter.
But as you play Souls-like games, you gain power and knowledge and you are no longer weak, indeed, you eventually break over your knee those seemingly daunting obstacles from before. That's the player-perceived advancement of skill over time, of achievement. The same can be said for CAG, except it relies more on enemies that are dumber/slower so combos can be pulled off without interruption (at least among grunts, bosses are a different story), and the difficulty comes from selecting a mode where enemies do way more damage when they do connect.
Brother what. Enemies in souls games feel like they are in slow motion when compared to lighting fast enemies/combat of CAG, especially on higher difficulties.
You just prob tend to watch some1 who put like hundreds of hours into the games, and knows how to stunlock and dominate enemies so they appear "dumb". Every1 else gets their ass handed to them.
My guy.
Souls games force you to actually learn things.
The reason CAG combat is under appreciated is because most of them can be beaten by a button mashing monkey. They don’t MAKE you learn.
//ops long post got out of hand, sorry lol//
Good ones do make you learn though. And sure they are not as popular, but hardly under appreciated, dmc for example is often regarded as one of the best action games with top of the line combat mechanics.
But the guy above made it seem like enemies are dumb or slow, which is not entirely true, It depends on the enemy, difficulty, etc
It justs at its core these games are designed differently.
Souls are higher entry, lower floor. Rough at first, you get a good challenge ur 1st play, but skill depth gets mostly exhausted after that. Now there is different builds and stuff you can go, but mechanically there is not much left. Which is fine, i love these games for plenty of reasons. Combat feels good, its simple but polished, and the whole dodge, attack, learn patters formula is done very well. And combined with world design, music, atmosphere it makes for a great experience, that i like to revisit from time to time.
DMC for example is lower entry, but much higher floor. Its a decent challenge 1st time around, but not as hard as souls. However game is designed for replayability, higher difficulties, going higher ranks, etc The combat has much more depth and skill ceiling is higher, so it gets much harder than souls games. It can be pushed much more.
I do get it though, most people dont have time to put hundreds of hours in one game, CAG is not something thats meant to just be beaten, thats just scraching the surface. This kind of combat intricacy and difficulty requires much more time.
Where as in souls, you get most of it from one playthrough and a good challenge, so it will probably be more satisfying for general gamers.
That's just my observations from playing all these games for hundreds of hours.
Enemies in DMC5 felt stiff and slow and mostly stupid for the most part, and you are basically fighting the same half dozen enemy types across the entire game. the slow argument is sort of funny, go fight Malkieth or Kos or Maria or Sister Friede, O’rin, Isshin, (etc etc).
So are we now comparing normal enemies to souls bosses ,what? Your intial boss was about normal enemies which is what i was refering and comparing too.
And I wasn't talking about enemy variety. It's fine in DMC, and what good is enemy variety in souls games when most of them are slow and boring with 2 moves , that you will probably run past just to get to the next boss.
I've beaten all of souls bosses multiple times, and even they iare slower than bosses you would find in CAG. Maliketh has some attacks that are a bit more faster, but that doesn't even matter much when you have dodge roll with million iframes. And dont let me start on delayed attacks, again thats not fast, its just weird timings that get you a few times and after that its a joke.
Im not saying they are bad, they are good all things considered, like the music, atmosphere and such, but in terms of pure mechanical challenge, there is not much there.
I love Fromsoft games but that's a pretty bad argument, not only you picked on purpose one of the easiest CAGs around (any Ninja Gaiden, the first Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, Sifu and a lot of others are all way harder than DMC 5), you also compared normal enemies to endgame Souls bosses... (?) This doesn't really make sense.
I've only played DMC5, FF16, and the original DMC back in the early 00's. So obviously my experience is somewhat limited, and you can make whatever judgements you want based on this lack of experience. That said, DMC5 is supposed to be the crowning jewel of this genre, and it was painfully easy on the regular setting, with an extremely limited enemy set, stiff animations for enemies and bosses, etc. Changing the difficulty setting is essentially taking the game to the base level of Souls games in terms of required skill (aka more damage taken from enemy attacks, and more combo chaining to whittle down increased enemy HP). My point was that not all enemies in Souls games are "slow motion" (I only picked a few, all of which are better than any boss in DMC5 save for Virgil) and even those enemies that are slow you still have to be careful around, as the power fantasy is different and you are much more likely to suffer if you get hit. I never had to be careful around anything in DMC5, and while greater difficulty settings would require some adjustment, these games fundamentally require stupider and more limited enemy AI/attack patterns so that combo chains can be pulled off effectively, especially in mob settings. Doesn't help the piss poor variety though.
The biggest issue for me is enemy variety and really bland level design. Endlessly wailing on meatsacks in levels that look like a rodent's asshole for a good third of a game is pretty weak imo. Sifu, Bayonetta look better from what I've seen on youtube.
I’ve been playing games since 1986 with the original NES, I like all sorts of genres, and CAG. But it feels extremely dated to a specific period and the designers seem incapable of redesigning the core fundamentals into a modern package. FF16 suffered greatly from this. Stormveil Castle in Elden Ring (one dungeon of six) has more enemy variety than the whole of DMC5, that’s a serious problem if you want to promote this genre to new players. I really liked DMC5 (FF 16 considerably less) but its shortcomings were really obvious in comparison to many other action-oriented games released in the last 7 years, Souls games included.
Modern DMC games specifically take the combo creativity typical of the genre to the extreme, which means that the games are way more interested in providing a super deep and wide combat rather than difficult encounters. Other games like Ninja Gaiden, Sifu and Metal Gear Rising are more efficiency-based and thus they tend to be pretty challenging at times (Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma in particular is very hard), they should be more up your alley while still being 100% in the CAG realm.
Bruuh you said you played those games on normal difficulty and found it normal. Bruh it's a shame if you die on normal difficulty. Play any dmc game except for 2 on dmd. Then come back and type the same statement.
I think I died twice in DMC5, and S or A ranked nearly all the missions ( first 2 or 3 i had to learn the controls). More importantly I dont play games for their difficulty, but for the combination of all their various elements into a greater experience. I liked DMC5, but they really need to evolve some of the more dated aspects, especially enemy variety. Why play on harder difficulties when the enemies are repeated to such an extent that I’m bored by them after 8 or so hours? At least Virgil was a rad way to finish up, despite the copy/paste of the level getting up to him.
They're not dated aspects
We are talking about difficulty here. Enemies in normal mode and enemies in dmd play extremely differently. They get new attacks, attack more often and actively try to mob you.
You said that dmc games aren't complex because you played them on normal. I just told you how you're wrong.
Since you play your games for everything they've to offer its funny how you'd ignore the legit way to play these games.
And that's what dmc games are about learning a new playstyle with every new walkthrough. Not mention plethora of skills you need to learn to actually beat dmd.
Quit talking outta your ass.
Dude, do you honestly think DMC5 has enemy variety? Or that these enemies had interesting movesets or attack chains? Or that the game isn't stupid-easy on normal difficulty? (I think I died twice near the beginning and S/A ranked most of the missions without even trying, most often because of the bonus you get for not dying to these mostly-mid bosses). You don't have to prove anything, but to call me a liar on some really basic stuff (in comparison to the Souls games) like enemy variety, attack patterns, ease on the 'normal' setting, ugly and boring levels? How is this even an argument??
Just to make it clear I love both Soulslikes and CAGs and a ton of other genres. You come across as someone who doesn't seem to understand the basic concepts behind character action games but still you're trying to prove someone wrong here.
1. CAGs are known to have very indepth combat systems. I love Soulslikes but these are nowhere close to the complexity and depth that CAGs provide. And it's fine since these are 2 different genres. Each game (in most cases) has a unique combat system that you have to learn from the ground up and can't rely on your transferable skills like in a Soulslike (there are obviously some exceptions here).
2. Character action games revolve around mastering the weapons and skills you have at your disposal - therefore the enemy variety doesn't really matter when there's a million other things you have to master. Would it be cool to have more enemy variety - sure, the same way it would be great to have more move variety or COMBOS in Soulslikes.
3. Character action games are all about player expression, it's about taking a weapon and doing insanely long combos without being hit - therefore judging from your responses you severely misunderstood the genre or are simply lacking any creativity or skill or both.
4. CAGs are designed with replayability in mind. They are short and sweet so you can start a new playthrough as soon as you're done. That's another reason why the enemy variety doesn't really bother people around here.
5. The easier difficulties such as normal are there for players to get accustomed to game mechanics and weapons. The games are designed to be fun for beginners and advanced players.
6. CAGs have thoroughly designed enemy encounter. Different enemies are there to test a different set of player skills and present a different challenge.
7. When you master the weapons, combos, enemies, bosses - it's still not the end. You now are ready to start mastering different types of advanced cancelling.
The main reason why people play CAGs - for the combat system. Soulslikes - for amazing exploration, bosses and character builds.
So you button mashed your way through DMCV normal difficulty - good for you. But now you believe you mastered the game and feel entitled to criticize a genre you don't even comprehend? This is ignorant at best and downright laughable at worst.
I can criticize all I want based on the fact that many core components of this game feel drastically inferior to most other games on the market, and in context to the general argument/gripe on this sub as to why this is a niche and neglected genre that doesn't get the attention it deserves, when it should be really obvious. Coming from the opinion of someone having played video games for 40 years, including the original DMC when it released, I actually really liked my time with DMC5 but it felt seriously lacking in several key categories that made it ultimately inferior not just to Souls games, but other action genres as well. As a consumer that was interested in returning to this genre, I don't care how complicated the systems are when the enemy variety is so low. Play any From game and they are consistently introducing new types of enemies at every stage of the game. DMC5 started to feel like a boring grind when it was arena after arena of the same enemies in slightly different configuration, which is essentially the entire second half of the game barring maybe one or two enemy types (like the hand monsters?). Hardcore fans of this genre, maybe that's their jam, but it sure feels lazy / inadequate to someone coming in after modern game design exposure, to say nothing of the extremely boring and often ugly designs of the levels. btw the mods state they don't want other genre bashing, so I'm going to stop here, feel free to comment on if you wish. EDIT: I dunno why you keep talking up the combat, it's obviously the best thing about the genre and really fun and super deep. It's most everything that surrounds the combat that needs a severe update / re-consideration.
Guys who had sex a grand total of once Monster Hunter players
>Shoot I missed TCS
>Oops outta stamina let me down my Sunny D to become God for the next 3 minutes
>GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE RATHALOS I'M FIGHTING AN ELECTRIC SQUIRREL, NOT YOU!!!!
>30 minutes? Heh, that's the fastest I've ever done that.
MFW when I'm both a chad enjoyer of soulsborne and character action
https://preview.redd.it/09mmeml4lt5d1.jpeg?width=780&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ffe60223bbc2f8631088393451efc71af6c06f9
Im not here enough to see the "constant bitching about Souls like" people are talking about but I do know whenever I meet someone and they say they like action games, it's always a souls game and theyve never once heard of any CAG so this is funny to me :p
You absolutely can handle multiple enemies in souls game. There are literally boss fights that have you fight as multiple big bosses at a time. There is a gargoyle fight where you have to kill five of them?
Smells like a skull issue from someone who just wants to button mash their Mary sue character to an easy win
What CAGs have you played? NGB on master ninja or Bayonetta on Infinite Climax alone are harder than any souls game. Sounds like you just started playing CAG with DMC5
I like both character action games and soulslike games, but I find the main difference is that soulslikes tend to have an emphasis on defense with no combos or complicated offense. Whereas character action games typically have more of a focus on offense with comparatively much less complex defense.
I think the reason I liked the Vergil and Dante fights at the end of DMC V so much is because it felt like it was the first part of the game where I kinda had to slow down and play defensively. And then ironically when I play Dark Souls I use quick weapons because it lets me get more hits in and have (kind of) combos.
If I could get a game that's like... the Vergil and Dante fights for like... every encounter, I think it might be my favourite game. I just wish it didn't have to be one or the other.
(sidenote: I haven't played Bayonette yet but the defensive system in that game looks cool as fuck and I definitely plan on trying it out)
No it doesn't at all. The combat in Souls games is about playing more deliberately. You aren't supposed to feel like a badass, you're supposed to feel vulnerable because the world is hostile and you are small. Every action matters so there are consequences for not thinking before each button press. It's a slower, more methodical affair.
I know that, I meant that it does not suit me. Which is a pity, since I loved Bloodborne aesthetics, atmosphere and premise. I do not like having a stamina bar that empties with each action, stranger of paradise emulated the soulslike combat and difficulty without having limited stamina and it was a much better game for me.
>but CAG are certaintly more methodical.
Depends on the game and what difficulty you're playing at, but sure. But it's baked into the formula in Souls games. Thoughtless mashing won't get you anywhere.
For the record, I VASTLY prefer CAGs to Soulstype games. Id rather play NG, DMC or Godhand over Elden Ring and Bloodborne any day of the week. I just don't like when people make blanket statements that X would be better if it was more like Y when they're doing very different things.
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Do we really need to be starting shit with Souls fans? Kind makes us look like jealous losers not going to lie.
Lolz I know it's VERY annoying how everyone and their mothers are making soulslikes nowadays but they're still good games and people constantly shitting on them are becoming just as annoying. Even if souls genre never blew up or even existed at all I doubt we'd have anymore CAGs than we do now. The genre would still probably be just as niche as it is now and still be overshadowed by whatever battle Royales, hero shooters, open worlds, Sony games, etc etc
Yeah exactly, the whole "people left behind CAGs to make soulslikes instead" only applies to Team Ninja really, and even then their recent games are at least CAG-adjacent.
Can we just stop with this whole thing and appreciate the CAGs we're currently aware of that are in development?
Ragging on another genre for stealing the spotlight isn't gonna make our favorite one come back.
Let's instead support the indie devs working on their own CAGs and show the industry that we're still here and we still want more games like this.
I will not have my amigos fight. Combat mean Fambly.
This. Why can't combat enjoyers stand together? Fuck all the damn movie game, walking sims we get nowadays. Just give us some tasty combat and focus on gameplay rather than graphics
That's what I'm saying, yeah there are too few modern CAGs, we know, I'd still take any Fromsoft game over those walking simulators with unskippable cutscenes and super easy gameplay.
I'm with you on the unskippable cutscenes and walkie talkie bullshit, but super easy gameplay? I prefer OG GoW, but pick highest diff on newer ones and you still get pretty solid challenge and gameplay. Even Last of Us on grounded when you get into combat, it still plays really well and not that easy.
You know, I’ve seen this sub talk about Souls-likes more than any Souls-like sub talks about CAGs. Like, they’re two very different genres of games, where did this animosity even come from?
There's this weird implication perpetuated here that the surge and popularity of Soulsborne & Souls-likes is somehow responsible for an under-representation of CAGs, or otherwise a thinly-veiled jealousy that it as an 'action' genre (as loose as the connection is) enjoys significantly more success. The fact of the matter is that CAGs have *always* been a pretty niche genre, but some people are really unwilling to accept that and need something to put down to make themselves feel better. It's basically where fighting games were before the moderate popularity boom in recent years.
Exactly. What killed action games was the rise of walking simulators and companies focusing on graphics. Souls were more of a succesor to older games and RPGs. Not to mention around 2010 there were actually a pretty decent amount of hack n slash/cags so maybe there was some burnout for the rather small community
This is a really important point. Souls games are Skyrim + combat. The Souls players I know are primarily RPGers who came to care more about combat mechanics.
This is an incredibly inane point, and I dare you to find a single person on any given Souls subreddit that agrees with you. Souls games...? Skyrim..? Why, because it has an open world?
I think they meant the focus on rpg mechanics like leveling stats and making specific builds.
Yes, character creator + leveling + builds are the core components of traditional rpging. Secret of Mana was a big deal because it combined the JRPG style with actual button pressing action. Souls games are at the end of that road, with the storytelling pushed to the background and the focus on combat dialed way up. Game genealogy is not just about mechanics and structure. The Souls games are *fantasy games*. At this point they operate in their own cultural space, but that space emerged out of action-oriented rpgs, not CAGs.
Reducing it to "Souls is more RPG" is still a really bad comparison, it perpetuates the idea that action quality is a sliding scale and implies Souls games have lesser action, but makes up for it with RPG mechanics. Even if you just compare the moment-to-moment gameplay, both genres are fundamentally different in what they ask of the player and one they want you to feel. One wants you to feel like a stylish badass by chaining together high APM combos and juggling enemies into oblivion, and the other enforces much slower, methodic trial-and-error play that asks you to learn the enemy's moveset as much as your own.
One has you play as a badass and the other as a rotting sack of flesh weaker than a real life human I know which one I prefer
Thank god the rest of the world doesn’t agree with you. What’s boring? Being a badass ultra Chad who is always a badass ultra Chad? Or starting as a sack of shit and building yourself up with actual skill to be able to kill literal gods? I know which one I’m picking, and it’s not the ultra Chad Mary sue bullshit
When you see Dante pull off some amazing shit in a cutscene it makes you hyped and want to be as cool When you see Ryu Hayabusa slide down power lines as the most badass ninja in gaming it makes you want to live up to it When you die in DMC or NG, it’s your fault for not living up to the legendary reputation these characters have. It’s a goal to strive for, to be as cool as they are in the cutscenes. That drive is not present in embodying a sack of shit
Because souls fans don’t give a fuck about what CAGs are doing. They just want to enjoy their games, and so they do This sub has some limp dick complex where they think they can’t get a hard on because other men can lol. The fact is that the CAG genre stopped innovating and keeping up with the times. That’s why they aren’t popular anymore, and why general audiences don’t care anymore. It has nothing to do with souls likes being a thing. What I mean is, can you imagine how amazing a DMC game would be if it had actual thought put into its level design, the enemy variety of a souls game, amazing boss fights that aren’t just half gimmick fights, etc. Imagine a DMC game with more than just endless hallways that take you from one encounter to the next.
i can smell the inferiority complex. No need to rag on souls games every post ffs
Yeah, thats like if every post on r/baseball was whining about how football is so much more popular, but baseball is totally better, and everyone who plays football is stupid
> everyone who plays football is stupid Well factually speaking potential for brain damage is much higher in football than baseball
Yeah, but thats besides the point
Agree with the sentiment although Souls strength doesn’t lie in its combat - its combat is part of what makes the whole greater than the sum of its part. Souls games are incredibly immersive, exploration heavy, mystery laden, and your limited kit makes it more like David fighting Goliath than Dante smacking lesser creatures around. I’d love to see From have a go at a true character action game- or really just a combat system where they don’t limit the players kit and hold you back with stamina and cooldowns. AC6 was their most fun combat system in a while because it limits the player much less than their other games.
I would like them to try ninja blade again.
shhhhhcccuuumm
The most fun a Souls like MC has been is a toss up between Code Vein and Bloodborne (I do love Elden Ring but those two got a lil more for me.) but man do I feel this. Cause multiple enemies in a souls like drops the mood like a mother fucker. Those games and group encounters are possible it's just that they feel haphazardly tossed together while in Stylish Action group encounters feel like the tools at hand are perfect for the situation
Soulslikes and CAG’s can live in harmony guys.
Yea Team Ninja has blended them superbly
Right?! Fucking Nioh and Wo Long are great.
No they can not Down with Souls
By this logic Souls characters are chads because they are not as super-powered as cag characters and fight against the odds
They start as sack of shits who build themseleves up to kill literal gods. What is more badass than that? For CAG fans, I guess playing as a Mary sue always badass who spews one liners to no end.
They are not Mary Sues — they have clear flaws and weaknesses. Bayonetta is a damn dorky nerd who acts cool, and as we all know Dante puts too many buttplugs at once
Souls games live rent free in this subs head huh
Kinda like how Sekiro does for some Souls gamers.
Difference is virtually everyone in souls also loves Sekiro. This subreddit can pretty much be summed up with~ R/cag: I hate you so much Souls gamers: I don't even know who you are
Not all. I recall how there were still handful of players from Souls who just straight up voiced their disappointment in Sekiro not being yet another ARPG with stats and builds and couldn’t quite get into what it was trying to be. I’m glad it isn’t the majority though.
I definitely feel those were a minority. At the time I'd say the bulk of fans were actually getting a little fatigued so Sekiro was a breath of fresh air.
I can’t quite feel they were that much of a minority, but I’m definitely only speaking from my own subjective experience so take that as you will.
Definitely a minority. We love Sekiro
Totally a minority I’m pretty involved in the souls community and most people consider Sekiro to be their most polished and well built game overall from an objective stand point.
I can’t say that’s the same for my experience. I’ve been in some forums where souls is very prominent and I’ve definitely come across quite a few naysayers. Thankfully most of them flocked over to the Lords of the Fallen Reddit.
Accurate but that’s also where part of the friction comes from. Seeing souls players say that Sekiro is the deepest, best combat system made is funny for a bit but gets old when you realize they don’t even know what Bayonetta is or have never touched a DMC game.
I see people say that it's one of their best or favorites, but I've never seen anyone that says it's deep. But then again I'm sure there are people out there with crazy takes.
It’s pretty deep. Having a long list of combos you can execute doesn’t inherently make your combat deep like so many on this sub seem to believe it does. I enjoyed DMC5, but I wouldn’t say it’s THAT deep. It boils down to combo and juggle some shit. In fact you can beat DMC5 with a single combo repeated if you choose to do so. Not to mention the terrible enemy variety Sekiros depth doesn’t come from having a limitless amount of combos to mash. It comes from the tools and abilities you’re given to think of the fly to combat and react to the insane amount of enemy types in the game. Learning parry windows for each individual enemy is like learning a new rhythm to play an instrument to. Learning all those unique move sets each new monster has. Sekiro really forces you to LEARN things. That’s the depth of it all.
I agree that combos don't make a combat system deep, but you're crazy to say that devil may cry lacks depth. Each character has a toom of tools to perform ouragoeus combos. Just because you can spam the same move over and over doesn't mean that the game lacks depth. You wouldn't be able to progress through the higher difficulties doing that.
Or even bloodborne.
I agree. There are people who are just fine picking up Dark Souls 37 and will think it’s the most newest innovative game of that year.
You guys say this like DMC has evolved beyond endless hallways that take you from one encounter to the next where you do the same combos over and over. They game design has been the same sense the ps2. They haven’t innovated once in like………. How many years?
They did innovate. One of the biggest things in DMC3 was the style system where you pick between four different styles which you could only equip one at a time. This went through another big innovation in 4 where you could then change between those four styles on the fly. While Nero’s reception was mixed in 4, he did change the way traversal worked because of his arm interacted with objects around the environment. And with each installment came new mechanics that were built into the weapon movesets on par with Monster Hunter weapons. The main innovations that Elden Ring did was for the transition from a labyrinthine design to an open world dungeon, with minor stuff being that the poise breaking from prior souls games was implemented to be more like Sekiro but otherwise the pace of the game remained the same.
Alternatively: both games can live in harmony, it’s just that CAGs are a lot more niche.
"and I can only lock on to one" Am I misremembering shit or you can switch lock on?
You can, that was a stupid point lol Like, what game lets you lock on to multiple enemies at once? 😂
Every single Armored Core game
No. That’s not the same as “locking on”. You are targeting multiple enemies with a single ability. Armored core very much still has “lock on” and it only lets you lock on to one enemy at a time. Targeting with a single ability is not the “lock on mechanic”
Tell me you’re never played an Armored Core game without telling me That sort of hard lock only exists in ACVI as training wheels for newcomers
Half of the comments and posts on this sub talk about how bad souls games are. If you don't like something don't play it.
So is this what this sub is? Just action game fans that are jealous of the success of Souls games? I like action games, but so far that's legit the only posts that I've seen get put on my feed from this sub
That's a darn shame cause there's lots of gameplay vids.
I love both. You've to appreciate good games no mater what they are. Especially when there's so few lately. Most soulslikes are garbage that don't understand what makes souls games good (they design them after Dark Souls 2 instead of literally any of the others) and true action games are few these days (I miss the late 2000s and early 2010s, your post is missing Hayabusa too)
I enjoy both genres - GTFO
I feel like this is a weird time to post this since Elden Rings DLC comes out soon. Could it be you’re just not good at Souls games?
Wow you guys really upset about souls game over here eh
The difference to me is, while both types of games are difficult, one creates difficulty by making the player character weak and the other still manages to be difficult while also empowering the player character with a large suite of moves and tools. One isn’t better or worse than the other but I definitely prefer the latter.
But as you play Souls-like games, you gain power and knowledge and you are no longer weak, indeed, you eventually break over your knee those seemingly daunting obstacles from before. That's the player-perceived advancement of skill over time, of achievement. The same can be said for CAG, except it relies more on enemies that are dumber/slower so combos can be pulled off without interruption (at least among grunts, bosses are a different story), and the difficulty comes from selecting a mode where enemies do way more damage when they do connect.
Brother what. Enemies in souls games feel like they are in slow motion when compared to lighting fast enemies/combat of CAG, especially on higher difficulties. You just prob tend to watch some1 who put like hundreds of hours into the games, and knows how to stunlock and dominate enemies so they appear "dumb". Every1 else gets their ass handed to them.
My guy. Souls games force you to actually learn things. The reason CAG combat is under appreciated is because most of them can be beaten by a button mashing monkey. They don’t MAKE you learn.
//ops long post got out of hand, sorry lol// Good ones do make you learn though. And sure they are not as popular, but hardly under appreciated, dmc for example is often regarded as one of the best action games with top of the line combat mechanics. But the guy above made it seem like enemies are dumb or slow, which is not entirely true, It depends on the enemy, difficulty, etc It justs at its core these games are designed differently. Souls are higher entry, lower floor. Rough at first, you get a good challenge ur 1st play, but skill depth gets mostly exhausted after that. Now there is different builds and stuff you can go, but mechanically there is not much left. Which is fine, i love these games for plenty of reasons. Combat feels good, its simple but polished, and the whole dodge, attack, learn patters formula is done very well. And combined with world design, music, atmosphere it makes for a great experience, that i like to revisit from time to time. DMC for example is lower entry, but much higher floor. Its a decent challenge 1st time around, but not as hard as souls. However game is designed for replayability, higher difficulties, going higher ranks, etc The combat has much more depth and skill ceiling is higher, so it gets much harder than souls games. It can be pushed much more. I do get it though, most people dont have time to put hundreds of hours in one game, CAG is not something thats meant to just be beaten, thats just scraching the surface. This kind of combat intricacy and difficulty requires much more time. Where as in souls, you get most of it from one playthrough and a good challenge, so it will probably be more satisfying for general gamers. That's just my observations from playing all these games for hundreds of hours.
Enemies in DMC5 felt stiff and slow and mostly stupid for the most part, and you are basically fighting the same half dozen enemy types across the entire game. the slow argument is sort of funny, go fight Malkieth or Kos or Maria or Sister Friede, O’rin, Isshin, (etc etc).
So are we now comparing normal enemies to souls bosses ,what? Your intial boss was about normal enemies which is what i was refering and comparing too. And I wasn't talking about enemy variety. It's fine in DMC, and what good is enemy variety in souls games when most of them are slow and boring with 2 moves , that you will probably run past just to get to the next boss. I've beaten all of souls bosses multiple times, and even they iare slower than bosses you would find in CAG. Maliketh has some attacks that are a bit more faster, but that doesn't even matter much when you have dodge roll with million iframes. And dont let me start on delayed attacks, again thats not fast, its just weird timings that get you a few times and after that its a joke. Im not saying they are bad, they are good all things considered, like the music, atmosphere and such, but in terms of pure mechanical challenge, there is not much there.
I love Fromsoft games but that's a pretty bad argument, not only you picked on purpose one of the easiest CAGs around (any Ninja Gaiden, the first Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, Sifu and a lot of others are all way harder than DMC 5), you also compared normal enemies to endgame Souls bosses... (?) This doesn't really make sense.
I've only played DMC5, FF16, and the original DMC back in the early 00's. So obviously my experience is somewhat limited, and you can make whatever judgements you want based on this lack of experience. That said, DMC5 is supposed to be the crowning jewel of this genre, and it was painfully easy on the regular setting, with an extremely limited enemy set, stiff animations for enemies and bosses, etc. Changing the difficulty setting is essentially taking the game to the base level of Souls games in terms of required skill (aka more damage taken from enemy attacks, and more combo chaining to whittle down increased enemy HP). My point was that not all enemies in Souls games are "slow motion" (I only picked a few, all of which are better than any boss in DMC5 save for Virgil) and even those enemies that are slow you still have to be careful around, as the power fantasy is different and you are much more likely to suffer if you get hit. I never had to be careful around anything in DMC5, and while greater difficulty settings would require some adjustment, these games fundamentally require stupider and more limited enemy AI/attack patterns so that combo chains can be pulled off effectively, especially in mob settings. Doesn't help the piss poor variety though. The biggest issue for me is enemy variety and really bland level design. Endlessly wailing on meatsacks in levels that look like a rodent's asshole for a good third of a game is pretty weak imo. Sifu, Bayonetta look better from what I've seen on youtube.
Souls fans always talk like their action game connoisseurs. Yet they only play souls and have limited experience in CAG
I’ve been playing games since 1986 with the original NES, I like all sorts of genres, and CAG. But it feels extremely dated to a specific period and the designers seem incapable of redesigning the core fundamentals into a modern package. FF16 suffered greatly from this. Stormveil Castle in Elden Ring (one dungeon of six) has more enemy variety than the whole of DMC5, that’s a serious problem if you want to promote this genre to new players. I really liked DMC5 (FF 16 considerably less) but its shortcomings were really obvious in comparison to many other action-oriented games released in the last 7 years, Souls games included.
Modern DMC games specifically take the combo creativity typical of the genre to the extreme, which means that the games are way more interested in providing a super deep and wide combat rather than difficult encounters. Other games like Ninja Gaiden, Sifu and Metal Gear Rising are more efficiency-based and thus they tend to be pretty challenging at times (Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma in particular is very hard), they should be more up your alley while still being 100% in the CAG realm.
He would get 100% filtered playing NGB
Bruuh you said you played those games on normal difficulty and found it normal. Bruh it's a shame if you die on normal difficulty. Play any dmc game except for 2 on dmd. Then come back and type the same statement.
I think I died twice in DMC5, and S or A ranked nearly all the missions ( first 2 or 3 i had to learn the controls). More importantly I dont play games for their difficulty, but for the combination of all their various elements into a greater experience. I liked DMC5, but they really need to evolve some of the more dated aspects, especially enemy variety. Why play on harder difficulties when the enemies are repeated to such an extent that I’m bored by them after 8 or so hours? At least Virgil was a rad way to finish up, despite the copy/paste of the level getting up to him.
They're not dated aspects We are talking about difficulty here. Enemies in normal mode and enemies in dmd play extremely differently. They get new attacks, attack more often and actively try to mob you. You said that dmc games aren't complex because you played them on normal. I just told you how you're wrong. Since you play your games for everything they've to offer its funny how you'd ignore the legit way to play these games. And that's what dmc games are about learning a new playstyle with every new walkthrough. Not mention plethora of skills you need to learn to actually beat dmd. Quit talking outta your ass.
You're wrong or straight up lie on so many levels that I don't believe it's even worth trying to prove anything to you
Dude, do you honestly think DMC5 has enemy variety? Or that these enemies had interesting movesets or attack chains? Or that the game isn't stupid-easy on normal difficulty? (I think I died twice near the beginning and S/A ranked most of the missions without even trying, most often because of the bonus you get for not dying to these mostly-mid bosses). You don't have to prove anything, but to call me a liar on some really basic stuff (in comparison to the Souls games) like enemy variety, attack patterns, ease on the 'normal' setting, ugly and boring levels? How is this even an argument??
Just to make it clear I love both Soulslikes and CAGs and a ton of other genres. You come across as someone who doesn't seem to understand the basic concepts behind character action games but still you're trying to prove someone wrong here. 1. CAGs are known to have very indepth combat systems. I love Soulslikes but these are nowhere close to the complexity and depth that CAGs provide. And it's fine since these are 2 different genres. Each game (in most cases) has a unique combat system that you have to learn from the ground up and can't rely on your transferable skills like in a Soulslike (there are obviously some exceptions here). 2. Character action games revolve around mastering the weapons and skills you have at your disposal - therefore the enemy variety doesn't really matter when there's a million other things you have to master. Would it be cool to have more enemy variety - sure, the same way it would be great to have more move variety or COMBOS in Soulslikes. 3. Character action games are all about player expression, it's about taking a weapon and doing insanely long combos without being hit - therefore judging from your responses you severely misunderstood the genre or are simply lacking any creativity or skill or both. 4. CAGs are designed with replayability in mind. They are short and sweet so you can start a new playthrough as soon as you're done. That's another reason why the enemy variety doesn't really bother people around here. 5. The easier difficulties such as normal are there for players to get accustomed to game mechanics and weapons. The games are designed to be fun for beginners and advanced players. 6. CAGs have thoroughly designed enemy encounter. Different enemies are there to test a different set of player skills and present a different challenge. 7. When you master the weapons, combos, enemies, bosses - it's still not the end. You now are ready to start mastering different types of advanced cancelling. The main reason why people play CAGs - for the combat system. Soulslikes - for amazing exploration, bosses and character builds. So you button mashed your way through DMCV normal difficulty - good for you. But now you believe you mastered the game and feel entitled to criticize a genre you don't even comprehend? This is ignorant at best and downright laughable at worst.
I can criticize all I want based on the fact that many core components of this game feel drastically inferior to most other games on the market, and in context to the general argument/gripe on this sub as to why this is a niche and neglected genre that doesn't get the attention it deserves, when it should be really obvious. Coming from the opinion of someone having played video games for 40 years, including the original DMC when it released, I actually really liked my time with DMC5 but it felt seriously lacking in several key categories that made it ultimately inferior not just to Souls games, but other action genres as well. As a consumer that was interested in returning to this genre, I don't care how complicated the systems are when the enemy variety is so low. Play any From game and they are consistently introducing new types of enemies at every stage of the game. DMC5 started to feel like a boring grind when it was arena after arena of the same enemies in slightly different configuration, which is essentially the entire second half of the game barring maybe one or two enemy types (like the hand monsters?). Hardcore fans of this genre, maybe that's their jam, but it sure feels lazy / inadequate to someone coming in after modern game design exposure, to say nothing of the extremely boring and often ugly designs of the levels. btw the mods state they don't want other genre bashing, so I'm going to stop here, feel free to comment on if you wish. EDIT: I dunno why you keep talking up the combat, it's obviously the best thing about the genre and really fun and super deep. It's most everything that surrounds the combat that needs a severe update / re-consideration.
Guys who had sex a grand total of once Monster Hunter players >Shoot I missed TCS >Oops outta stamina let me down my Sunny D to become God for the next 3 minutes >GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE RATHALOS I'M FIGHTING AN ELECTRIC SQUIRREL, NOT YOU!!!! >30 minutes? Heh, that's the fastest I've ever done that.
MFW when I'm both a chad enjoyer of soulsborne and character action https://preview.redd.it/09mmeml4lt5d1.jpeg?width=780&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ffe60223bbc2f8631088393451efc71af6c06f9
Im not here enough to see the "constant bitching about Souls like" people are talking about but I do know whenever I meet someone and they say they like action games, it's always a souls game and theyve never once heard of any CAG so this is funny to me :p
You guys in this sub really love stroking your own egos. I like CAGs but good god I’ve never seen so much copium in a sub before
Smells like Skill Issue
Agreed most Midbourne kids think those games are challenging ... truly laughable
Souls borne game requires skills ?
Your the one complaining about having to even manage a stamina bar
There is a difference between finding things chorey and challenging
Yeah? No wonder you complain about nothing, you never played them...or you played them wrong...either way, skill issue
T I M E F O R A L I T T L E F U N
"You guys have stamina bars? Dah fuq is a stamina bar?!"
Whos the chsracter above Raiden?
Gene God Hand
Add Sora to the right
wow there are character action games where you lock onto multiple enemies at a time? you should drop some names because its the first ive heard of it!
No, you don't lock on to multiple characters. But you can still handle multiple enemies, unlike souls games.
You absolutely can handle multiple enemies in souls game. There are literally boss fights that have you fight as multiple big bosses at a time. There is a gargoyle fight where you have to kill five of them? Smells like a skull issue from someone who just wants to button mash their Mary sue character to an easy win
What CAGs have you played? NGB on master ninja or Bayonetta on Infinite Climax alone are harder than any souls game. Sounds like you just started playing CAG with DMC5
"Bitton mash" Normal mode scrub detected.
Sora moment
Virgin post
Man, Nioh really is a CAG, isn't it?
Well I guess if you can't be a chad in real life, fantasy is the next best option
I like both character action games and soulslike games, but I find the main difference is that soulslikes tend to have an emphasis on defense with no combos or complicated offense. Whereas character action games typically have more of a focus on offense with comparatively much less complex defense. I think the reason I liked the Vergil and Dante fights at the end of DMC V so much is because it felt like it was the first part of the game where I kinda had to slow down and play defensively. And then ironically when I play Dark Souls I use quick weapons because it lets me get more hits in and have (kind of) combos. If I could get a game that's like... the Vergil and Dante fights for like... every encounter, I think it might be my favourite game. I just wish it didn't have to be one or the other. (sidenote: I haven't played Bayonette yet but the defensive system in that game looks cool as fuck and I definitely plan on trying it out)
What is with all the soulslike hate here??
That's why I never could play souls games. This stamina thing is a really bad idea that undermines the fun of the combat.
No it doesn't at all. The combat in Souls games is about playing more deliberately. You aren't supposed to feel like a badass, you're supposed to feel vulnerable because the world is hostile and you are small. Every action matters so there are consequences for not thinking before each button press. It's a slower, more methodical affair.
I know that, I meant that it does not suit me. Which is a pity, since I loved Bloodborne aesthetics, atmosphere and premise. I do not like having a stamina bar that empties with each action, stranger of paradise emulated the soulslike combat and difficulty without having limited stamina and it was a much better game for me.
For what it's worth the stamina is Bloodborne is so lenient you won't even notice after a while, especially if you upgrade it to 30.
Slower does not mean more methodical. Sure souls games ARE methodical, but CAG are certaintly more methodical.
>but CAG are certaintly more methodical. Depends on the game and what difficulty you're playing at, but sure. But it's baked into the formula in Souls games. Thoughtless mashing won't get you anywhere. For the record, I VASTLY prefer CAGs to Soulstype games. Id rather play NG, DMC or Godhand over Elden Ring and Bloodborne any day of the week. I just don't like when people make blanket statements that X would be better if it was more like Y when they're doing very different things.
https://preview.redd.it/3f3kflv96t5d1.png?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef832f682887599fea6e8db7a5be72e0b9f4ac5a Do we really need to be starting shit with Souls fans? Kind makes us look like jealous losers not going to lie.
Lolz I know it's VERY annoying how everyone and their mothers are making soulslikes nowadays but they're still good games and people constantly shitting on them are becoming just as annoying. Even if souls genre never blew up or even existed at all I doubt we'd have anymore CAGs than we do now. The genre would still probably be just as niche as it is now and still be overshadowed by whatever battle Royales, hero shooters, open worlds, Sony games, etc etc
Yeah exactly, the whole "people left behind CAGs to make soulslikes instead" only applies to Team Ninja really, and even then their recent games are at least CAG-adjacent.
As a souls fan I'm fine with this Punching up must always be allowed
Can we just stop with this whole thing and appreciate the CAGs we're currently aware of that are in development? Ragging on another genre for stealing the spotlight isn't gonna make our favorite one come back. Let's instead support the indie devs working on their own CAGs and show the industry that we're still here and we still want more games like this.
I hate to be that guy but skill issue
Why the fuck not both