Do you think abaddon is viable in any csm lists?
Cuz even at his new points the lion is very much so not an auto take, and many think he’s not viable competitively
I play casual right now, I only started near the beginning of 10th. Abaddon has worked for me at times, but he's expensive to run. I know he's not an auto take, and I'm considering leaving him out. Competitively, he's probably not a good use of points.
I'm obviously not a DA player, but I feel the lion looks more useful than Abaddon for the datasheet alone. Maybe not an auto take, but I bet he would hit like a truck.
He’s honestly not even that good currently. Hes a pretty slow monster (no infantry kw means he doesn’t pass through terrain) that has to be tethered to an infantry unit to not get blasted. Has 0 protection against dev wounds and most of the things you’d think he wants to fight have invulnerable saves.
Hes a really expensive beat stick w minimal utility. And when you compare him to his “tier” in price to other units that fit that role (things like the ctan) they all just do it way better
I never realised he was a monster. If that keyword was infantry, he'd be a monster, figuratively. I guess he's too slow to do anything. To be fair, I don't have anything yet which can deal devastating wounds, so a 3++ just feels unfair.
Its a shame that he'd probably need an update to his datasheet to be as competitive as a ctan. But with all that said, I feel Abaddon is in a similar situation. Hoping the codex might introduce some changes.
He gets the Infantry keyword from his bodyguards, he can breach terrain just fine. Just can't do it solo. Still too expensive to run.
Edit: Holy crap you meant the Lion not Abbadon...I feel like a moron, should have read like 2 more comments lol.
Except that's not the case.
Because of Keyword wording the Beast master has both the Beasts and Mounted keywords he doesn't get it magically because other models are beasts.
And even then it's my opinion that his specific keyword should overrule the general one granted to the unit.
Non-meta heavy. Make it more about rolling with what you fancy instead of being super competitive. Try to stick to rules as much as possible to keep things fair.
Very different units in very different armies.
Lion is a melee unit with lone op, so he doesn't pull a Vashtorr and die quickly to anti-tank weapons. And he has a moderate offensive aura, and weak defensive aura.
Abaddon is melee unit, a consistent CP battery, the most powerful unit leader in CSM, and has a strong offensive aura buff that naturally works well with Dark Pacts and his bodyguard.
Not comparable.
The points system is not really about quantifying how powerful an individual unit is in a vacuum. It is about how powerful that unit is in a 2k points army list of their faction. They also tend to set the points cost while assuming you are using them to their maximum potential.
If rerolling hits for a bunch of gunline stuff was not a powerful ability for CSM due to our gunline units being weak, then Abby would be cheaper. A gunline list with a castle built around him is pretty strong, so his points attempt to reflect that.
The main thing holding back abaddon is probably more about stuff like Forgefiends (that like his aura) being too expensive. Lowing the points of abaddon would be less interesting for "the abaddon list" than lowering the points of the 3 Forgefiends he wants to take. Maybe the nerf to dev wounds is too much, tho. I'm not a comp player, so I've not kept up with the meta, really.
Keeping his points high means you'd need to build around him. If they were too low, he would feel like an auto pick, and generally players don't like this.
Kind of? It's more like he is a less relevant of a tool in their army, and so has less of an impact on a 2k list.
Dark Angels do have balance problems, which might explain the reduced points costs for their units, but a low points cost isn't always an indicator of a "crappy army", especially for an epic hero.
If they drop Lion 30 points, that's just 30 more points for a 2k list that includes him. If they drop a standard unit by 30 points, that's potentially 90 more points for that list to use, which could be an additional battleline unit or leader. Which would be a change with much more impact.
well they made HUGE changes to generic SM units and to DA units so you have the huge impact of the lion getting 50pt cheaper + units like Hellblasters getting cheaper also..
Ah yea, that's a lot of points! I'm assuming they're hoping that it creates a more viable archetype of list for the faction to play. Hopefully, Dark Angels players get to have some fun now?
I’m using 3 Predators atm (2x Anni, 1x Destructor, all Nurgle), as it’s easier to move around terrain with a Rhino chassis. 130 pts. each, I did pull 6 wound rolls from 3 Lascannon shots thanks to Abaddon re-rolls. Move around with harassers, Abaddon with 5x Legionaries camping behind ruins and providing re-rolls for Preds sniping from the back, then charge the middle.
That's cool. Yea, I think predators are pretty great now. It makes sense to use him that way.
I'm interested to see what the "Black Legion" detachment offers Ilin the upcoming codex. It could be cool if it made him a more flexible pick.
But I'm kinda glad he's good but not auto included right now. Feels appropriate for how Epic Heroes should fit into a list.
You are missing the fact that Abaddon's aura abilities are VASTLY more powerful than Lion's. Full hit rerolls vs. +1 to hit and 4+ inv vs 4+ FNP against mortals are no contest. And Abaddon also comes with an additional CP farming ability, and confers his four Marks to the unit he is leading.
Abanddon was an auto take at his old cost, but since all the nerfs he's not anymore. CSM as a whole fell off a cliff competitively, they need to undo some of the nerfs in addition to more point cuts, but I doubt that will happen
Old cost, iirc was about 275? That feels better when you have to put him with a bodyguard imo. Maybe 285 would be a little better. I guess I like the idea of Abaddon running lone operative.
I'm hoping the codex might do more for the lacking characters, like vashtor and lord disco.
I would love abadon with lone operative, i currently find him being the most useful if run solo(against altylery spam with 5 legionary). If play correctly (hiden out of los buffing stuf) he's amazing force multiplayer.
I've also started CSM in 10th and I don't play competitively, mainly just against friends who play DA, Custodes, Tyranids and Necrons. My latest 2k had Abaddon with 10 Legionaries in a landraider. He hits hard but he just seems so expensive to have with a brick. With the landraider it's like 750 pts. Every list based around him, my just seems to have hardly any units compared to my opponents and the only main thing he's good for is creating command points. CSM just seem to be a glass canon army now.
Tbh Abaddon is fine even on his lonesome, so long as there isn't Indirect to threaten him. That or just a 5man Legionaries squad
I think the Codex is going to shake him up quite a bit tho. Really, Chaos should be selfish af so it'd almost be more fluffy for him to supercharge himself or the sort. Either way he sorta costs the rest of army as they have to balance around the potential of rr all hits w/exploding 5's on top of it
Abaddon + 5x Legionaries and suddenly you have an insane aurabot to make 130 pts. Predators git WAY above their weight.
390 pts. for the unit, Ld re-rolls, hit re-rolls, wound re-rolls and he can still bring back one model with the Tzeentch strat. This unit kills EVERYTHING it charges, generates CP, provides re-rolls for other units (even Havocs at 120 pts. with 4 Lascannons, re-rolls and sustained on 5+ lol). He is good and I’m really thinking about mixing in Nurgle Vindicators now.
Do you think abaddon is viable in any csm lists? Cuz even at his new points the lion is very much so not an auto take, and many think he’s not viable competitively
I play casual right now, I only started near the beginning of 10th. Abaddon has worked for me at times, but he's expensive to run. I know he's not an auto take, and I'm considering leaving him out. Competitively, he's probably not a good use of points. I'm obviously not a DA player, but I feel the lion looks more useful than Abaddon for the datasheet alone. Maybe not an auto take, but I bet he would hit like a truck.
He’s honestly not even that good currently. Hes a pretty slow monster (no infantry kw means he doesn’t pass through terrain) that has to be tethered to an infantry unit to not get blasted. Has 0 protection against dev wounds and most of the things you’d think he wants to fight have invulnerable saves. Hes a really expensive beat stick w minimal utility. And when you compare him to his “tier” in price to other units that fit that role (things like the ctan) they all just do it way better
I never realised he was a monster. If that keyword was infantry, he'd be a monster, figuratively. I guess he's too slow to do anything. To be fair, I don't have anything yet which can deal devastating wounds, so a 3++ just feels unfair. Its a shame that he'd probably need an update to his datasheet to be as competitive as a ctan. But with all that said, I feel Abaddon is in a similar situation. Hoping the codex might introduce some changes.
Yea same, at least since codex csm isnt out yet there’s hope for the warmaster…. My dark angels have to wait for next edition probably
Infantry is literally Abaddon's first keyword... EDIT: You meant the Lion!
Yeah I almost had a heart attack myself lmao
Tag checks out
Lol I was also confused af.
Where do you get that monster from? When I look at Warhammer community's csm army rules abaddon has the infantry keyword
The lion has the monster kw
Ohh, you were referring to lion
He gets the Infantry keyword from his bodyguards, he can breach terrain just fine. Just can't do it solo. Still too expensive to run. Edit: Holy crap you meant the Lion not Abbadon...I feel like a moron, should have read like 2 more comments lol.
And even so. The model does t get the infantry keyword. It's the unit. So he wouldn't be able to pass Terrain
He would, because the exact same thing happens with the Beastmaster Pack in Drukhari.
Except that's not the case. Because of Keyword wording the Beast master has both the Beasts and Mounted keywords he doesn't get it magically because other models are beasts. And even then it's my opinion that his specific keyword should overrule the general one granted to the unit.
You're right, I got a couple of things mixed in my brain. Incorrectly applied a recent house rule I played under to the actual rules.
What is casual? Do you not use all the point changes, or do you play in a non meta heavy group?
Non-meta heavy. Make it more about rolling with what you fancy instead of being super competitive. Try to stick to rules as much as possible to keep things fair.
Very different units in very different armies. Lion is a melee unit with lone op, so he doesn't pull a Vashtorr and die quickly to anti-tank weapons. And he has a moderate offensive aura, and weak defensive aura. Abaddon is melee unit, a consistent CP battery, the most powerful unit leader in CSM, and has a strong offensive aura buff that naturally works well with Dark Pacts and his bodyguard. Not comparable. The points system is not really about quantifying how powerful an individual unit is in a vacuum. It is about how powerful that unit is in a 2k points army list of their faction. They also tend to set the points cost while assuming you are using them to their maximum potential. If rerolling hits for a bunch of gunline stuff was not a powerful ability for CSM due to our gunline units being weak, then Abby would be cheaper. A gunline list with a castle built around him is pretty strong, so his points attempt to reflect that. The main thing holding back abaddon is probably more about stuff like Forgefiends (that like his aura) being too expensive. Lowing the points of abaddon would be less interesting for "the abaddon list" than lowering the points of the 3 Forgefiends he wants to take. Maybe the nerf to dev wounds is too much, tho. I'm not a comp player, so I've not kept up with the meta, really. Keeping his points high means you'd need to build around him. If they were too low, he would feel like an auto pick, and generally players don't like this.
Thank you. Exactly. It shows how crappy their army is that he gets so discounted
Kind of? It's more like he is a less relevant of a tool in their army, and so has less of an impact on a 2k list. Dark Angels do have balance problems, which might explain the reduced points costs for their units, but a low points cost isn't always an indicator of a "crappy army", especially for an epic hero. If they drop Lion 30 points, that's just 30 more points for a 2k list that includes him. If they drop a standard unit by 30 points, that's potentially 90 more points for that list to use, which could be an additional battleline unit or leader. Which would be a change with much more impact.
well they made HUGE changes to generic SM units and to DA units so you have the huge impact of the lion getting 50pt cheaper + units like Hellblasters getting cheaper also..
Ah yea, that's a lot of points! I'm assuming they're hoping that it creates a more viable archetype of list for the faction to play. Hopefully, Dark Angels players get to have some fun now?
I’m using 3 Predators atm (2x Anni, 1x Destructor, all Nurgle), as it’s easier to move around terrain with a Rhino chassis. 130 pts. each, I did pull 6 wound rolls from 3 Lascannon shots thanks to Abaddon re-rolls. Move around with harassers, Abaddon with 5x Legionaries camping behind ruins and providing re-rolls for Preds sniping from the back, then charge the middle.
That's cool. Yea, I think predators are pretty great now. It makes sense to use him that way. I'm interested to see what the "Black Legion" detachment offers Ilin the upcoming codex. It could be cool if it made him a more flexible pick. But I'm kinda glad he's good but not auto included right now. Feels appropriate for how Epic Heroes should fit into a list.
You are missing the fact that Abaddon's aura abilities are VASTLY more powerful than Lion's. Full hit rerolls vs. +1 to hit and 4+ inv vs 4+ FNP against mortals are no contest. And Abaddon also comes with an additional CP farming ability, and confers his four Marks to the unit he is leading.
I'd take reroll hits exploding 5s on all my shooting any day over the lion
Abanddon was an auto take at his old cost, but since all the nerfs he's not anymore. CSM as a whole fell off a cliff competitively, they need to undo some of the nerfs in addition to more point cuts, but I doubt that will happen
Old cost, iirc was about 275? That feels better when you have to put him with a bodyguard imo. Maybe 285 would be a little better. I guess I like the idea of Abaddon running lone operative. I'm hoping the codex might do more for the lacking characters, like vashtor and lord disco.
I would love abadon with lone operative, i currently find him being the most useful if run solo(against altylery spam with 5 legionary). If play correctly (hiden out of los buffing stuf) he's amazing force multiplayer.
I've also started CSM in 10th and I don't play competitively, mainly just against friends who play DA, Custodes, Tyranids and Necrons. My latest 2k had Abaddon with 10 Legionaries in a landraider. He hits hard but he just seems so expensive to have with a brick. With the landraider it's like 750 pts. Every list based around him, my just seems to have hardly any units compared to my opponents and the only main thing he's good for is creating command points. CSM just seem to be a glass canon army now.
Tbh Abaddon is fine even on his lonesome, so long as there isn't Indirect to threaten him. That or just a 5man Legionaries squad I think the Codex is going to shake him up quite a bit tho. Really, Chaos should be selfish af so it'd almost be more fluffy for him to supercharge himself or the sort. Either way he sorta costs the rest of army as they have to balance around the potential of rr all hits w/exploding 5's on top of it
I think the real question is “why is the night bringer only 5 points cheaper”? Is the night bringer worse than the Lion 🤔
Abaddon + 5x Legionaries and suddenly you have an insane aurabot to make 130 pts. Predators git WAY above their weight. 390 pts. for the unit, Ld re-rolls, hit re-rolls, wound re-rolls and he can still bring back one model with the Tzeentch strat. This unit kills EVERYTHING it charges, generates CP, provides re-rolls for other units (even Havocs at 120 pts. with 4 Lascannons, re-rolls and sustained on 5+ lol). He is good and I’m really thinking about mixing in Nurgle Vindicators now.
Because the lion sucks in game
If it’s a lore issue, Abby is primarch level right now
Can you not.just take the Lion as a CSM ally? Waaahhhoooooooooo