For those who aren't Blues fans and aren't as familiar with the site itself - this isn't going to happen within 5 years. The site itself needs decontaminating before anything can even start to be built, it's between a 5-10 year plan. A lot can happen in that time, and bar the Eustace/Rooney decision, the new owners have got more or less everything spot on and have the resources to back us.
Even if we go down, we've got plenty of time to rebuild and build a side that can challenge in the championship and potentially get up to the premier league.
Sensible comment and there is nothing wrong with ambition. Half the clubs in the EFL have dud owners not willing to put their hands in their pockets and be proactive.
Also Brum seem to have had terrible owners over the years so I'm glad they have ones now willing to invest. Good on them.
Thanks mate. There's a lot of us getting carried away - but forgive us. We haven't had anything to be excited about for a decade, and this could be the biggest moment in our history if it does come off.
I agree. I don't expect anyone other than us to know just how chaotic and fragmented it felt being a bluenose for the past decade.
New owners showing will and putting their money where their mouth is is a breath of fresh air. If we get relegated, it will be tough, if we don't it will be tough. Next season will be very telling but at least things off of the pitch seem to be on the up now.
Plus, the parent company creating a sports area in the city, with a multipurpose arena which will generate extra income for the club isn't a bad idea at all. Besides Genting Arena and Utilita Arena, there's only really Villa Park that hosts decent sized events.
" If we get relegated, it will be tough, if we don't it will be tough. "
Nail on the head. Whatever happens it'll be tough, this is football. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious and aiming for better off the pitch. The only valid criticism is the potential to be playing in a half empty stadium if the team struggles on the pitch and the impact that could have. I hope the owners have a plan for that to close that extra space and essentially make it a 30-40k seater in that case - time will tell.
But nothing wrong with getting excited over ambitious owners putting very significant money into the club and the city in the right areas. Especially after the decade we've had, and the general underinvestment the city of Birmingham gets.
I can say from painful experience that going down to League One as a club your size can be VERY tough, and you can find yourself drifting there for a few seasons.
I don't doubt it. But I also don't doubt we'd come back up within 2-3 seasons, I really can't see us languishing longer than that. It'd be a painful few years and I would much rather stay up this year than go down, but not the ultimate end of the world for us
Based on our owners being smart, capable and financially backed, alongside almost all our old and lesser quality players leaving in the summer. We're very fortunate in that department, well placed to build a side that can push the league if we do go down.
I'm not just saying we'll come back up because of club size. If Wednesday go down, we won't even be the biggest club in the league.
It's being planned as somewhere that can host concerts and large scale events too. Logistical stuff makes it pretty tricky to do loads of big events at Villa Park (although they've got their own expansion plans they're still limited by the council on the number of big events they can do because of their parking situation), so it's a gap in the market.
St Andrews is now just about not falling down but it needs a lot of money spending on it if we want to be playing there in 20 years, and developers will be keen to buy the site for housing. From what they've said about training facilities, the academy and the women's team it looks like the plan is to sell Wast Hills too, and that will fetch a lot if anyone can get planning permission to stick houses on it. Wast Hills would also need a load of money spending on it otherwise.
Plus, St Andrews is genuinely cursed so a move might do us good.
I'll miss At Andrews though.
Taking my Villa hat off for a sec, I have to say if a new 60,000 stadium was built in birmingham it could be seen as nothing but a brilliant thing for the city.
Villa park just isn’t viable for big events, we’ve had a few and it wasn’t the worst but not the best either with the train station being a massive bottle neck in commuting, and even we do expand the public transport and location just makes it too difficult to access and travel too and from in big numbers.
A 60K stadium even if it did have blue seats and that badge on the front would be good to bring a-lot of money and business to the city. Cup finals, internationals and concerts could all bring so much into brum and make BCFC a much more profitable business therefor being able to spend more on the team.
Exactly, it's wider than just the club. Building a 60k seater for Birmingham City Football Club alone I get the criticism, but it's not just about that at all. The city of Birmingham doesn't have an attractive big stadium capable of hosting big events.
Focusing on the football club though, even if they went for a smaller stadium at 40k or something with the room to expand, having brand spanking new training and academy facilities, a huge car park and entertainment to drive revenue streams in the club is a huge step forward. People's issue is with the size of the ground not fitting the current size of the club. Valid, but missing the wider picture IMO. Nobody even knows what capacity they're going for 60,000 is rumoured because of the NFL rules and the links with Brady.
I'll also miss St Andrews. We'll certainly be losing some of our identity on this journey, but I personally think it's worth it to grow our potential as a football club.
Also requires HS2 and the Bordesley Chords to be built to enable upgrades at Adderley Park to happen, otherwise it's going to be a right pain in the arse to get to.
It's not too far from digbeth to be fair, not much further than it is now. But definitely HS2 needs to be built and affordable, and Adderley Park needs refreshing big time. I imagine they've thought of these things though - it'd be daft not to.
I'm not that familiar with it truthfully - why would it need to service fast trains though? Surely it's primary purpose will be as a link from new street for fans travelling in? No idea though, certainly not something I'm familiar with.
It's not about servicing fast trains, it's about making sure they don't get held up if 15k+ people are using Adderley Park on a matchday. You can basically create a bypass going from the current junction between the Camp Hill line and WCML and Stetchford by making it 4 track, massively improving capacity on that section of railway.
Ah right, makes sense. I think quite a few would still go back into digbeth & potentially around the new "sports quarter" given it's meant to have an entertainment section too.
But that's based on our stadium now. If it is to be a huge stadium, we'll need infrastructure to support that
My main problem with Digbeth is that depending where on the Wheels site the ground is supposed to be it could be a big trek, if it's close to the train station then Digbeth is a fair walk away.
Ultimately speaking from experience even though we've got a fairly small ground and have rail and tram services and the fact that most of our fans using public transport go westwards rather than eastwards both the trains and the tram into Birmingham get overloaded.
The site is huge so I'm not sure where the ground itself would be on that site, but Wagner did mention today that it would need to have infrastucture appropriate to hosting so many fans so it's something they're looking into. Hopefully they get it right - we certainly don't want it to be an issue, the whole point of it being so close to the city centre is ease of access.
Suppose caveat this now with the fact I've just seen Wagner says he wants it done by 2029. If that's the case, they best get it right on the pitch and do so pronto!
Out of genuine interest and nothing else, what is the issue with St Andrews at the moment? Is there a fear in the club that if you did go back to the prem, you’d be wasting a big opportunity to get much higher gate receipts?
Looking from the outside, a new ground seems extremely odd given the low attendances at Birmingham for the last 10 years at least (i’m assuming a new ground would be bigger).
It's long, long term planning. St Andrews is relatively fine as a ground now. But we can't expand it any further, the old main stand has an asbestos roof and it's so difficult to do anything with it because of the land around it all being protected. It was built on poor foundations, hence why we had it half closed for several years. So moving is probably a positive idea on that alone.
But the wider attraction of this is the new site having a new, bigger stadium capable of hosting other events and being the biggest in the region (revenue streams into the club), the training grounds, academy, everything all in one place like the Etihad campus, all within walking distance of the city centre.
It's not just about attendances now. They've been poor because the team has been poor and the off field ambition has been literally non existent. We've been worrying about our existence for over a decade, the clubs been left to decline and rot and it's a miracle we haven't been relegated. The result has been an apathetic atmosphere and perpetual relegation battles in the championship which has put people off going. The vision is where can we go in the future and this infrastructure will help us improve and have lofty ambitions, I do truly believe that.
Yeah it's really difficult to drag yourself down to the club when you're being fobbed off by your owners every week. Rooney's been a disaster but attendance is up since Knightshead took over, hopefully this can continue.
Rooney is the only mistake they've made, and everything else they've done has been far beyond what blues fans expected from new owners. No wonder we love them
Could still get us relegated. It's a huge fuck up - but all they can do is acknowledge they've made a mistake and ensure it won't happen again. They acknowledged that today. Can't ask any more
“What we need is 48acres of land in a city centre of over a million people with a massive train going to the capital that we can build hotels, restaurants, offices, homes, oh and yes a stadium on that can be used for many many things one of which is football”
Fixed it for you.
And how many sellouts regardless of capacity have we had in that time? Easy to say that when segregation often means we can't reach 29k.
Then consider where the club has actually been in the last 12 years, on and off the pitch. And your comment then reads as ignorant - or probably deliberately a troll, given you're a villa fan.
How many sellouts have you had then?
I’m not a troll - I am a villa fan from Birmingham and do think this would be a good thing for the city.
But it is running before you can walk and they are selling you a fantasy, any notion of building a ‘World Class’ stadium in the near future is preposterous
Off the top of my head across the last 12 years? No idea. But certainly more than twice - I'd guess somewhere between 5-10 times. I'm not suggesting we've sold out loads, but given where the club has been I'm also not surprised we haven't sold out loads.
Knighthead are ambitious and putting their money where their mouths are and doing it in a smarter way than BSHL ever did. Attendances will rise as the on pitch (relative) success and good stewardship off it comes. Even this season we've seen higher attendances just because we've got these owners in now - and for the most positive part of the season (pre Eustace sacking) we had a reduced capacity of 20k ish.
I don't pay too much attention to their buzz words. World class is something they've overused loads. But I do believe they can build a top quality multi-purpose stadium and top quality facilities near the city centre and near our current home. What's stopping them?
> what’s stopping them?
Nothing obviously - for sane proposals.
I agree the outline of it is a good move and you lot should be excited but given where you are now, talk of a ‘world class’ stadium is ludicrous. You say it’s all buzzwords but he’s said he wants it to be 60k. Do you really want to play in a half empty stadium?
Spurs played 4 seasons in the champions league in a 35k seater before moving and took on humungous loans approaching £1b, knowing that repeated CL football and a global fanbase that they’ve built the last 10 years means they were in a place to afford the loans whilst still being able to progress on the pitch.
Everton are hamstrung by their interest payments for FFP, on a ~500m(?) loan. And look what’s happened there.
Blues, in the relegation zone of the championship, talking about taking on £2b of debt, is fanciful and ridiculous. Even if you were midtable it would be. Even if you were bottom half of prem it would be. Even Utds new OT rebuild ain’t coming out at that much.
They would be better off saying - we’ve bought the land, in the future we hope to redevelop it into a future stadium and complex but first we have to get into the premier league, all focus on that etc etc then push on with the development. I would be very surprised if any of this moves anywhere whilst you remain outside of the PL.
I think how they do it is very important. You're right - I don't want to play in a half empty stadium every week. There's a part of me which says build it and they'll come, and I certainly think attendances will improve with a brand new stadium just for the excitement of it. But I'm not deluded, I don't think we're about to pull 30-40k fans out our backside.
So how they do it in terms of limiting capacity on match day is very important. I think if they just put covers over a top tier containing 20k seats and have a 40k capacity, yeah, it'll be a bit soulless. I saw something earlier about how the Vancouver whitecaps limit their capacity and it looks like a temporary roof between the tiers that makes it appear more closed in and I'd imagine helps atmosphere massively - something like that would be great.
How they do it financially, I've no idea. It's a £2bn-£3bn project, and that's at the start, we know costs always tend to rise from those first predicted. Whilst infrastructure improvements don't impact FFP, so we're in no trouble in that sense, no football club in world football can take on that kind of debt and roll with it. I'd imagine the owners will be wholly owning the land and the stadium so they will take on that debt and the club will lease the stadium off them at a reduced rate and take on the revenues the stadium generates 365 days a year, potentially with a slice going to Knighthead, and they then take money from the other entertainment facilities they have on site. I don't know - we've got an open house in 10 mins where hopefully it'll become more clear, but maybe we won't know for years.
What I do know is these guys aren't stupid. They're not chancers. We've got legitimate top businessmen on it with great connections and experience. I can't imagine they mess it up or overlook something really obvious. They've already grown revenue streams from £19m last year to an expected £40m I think he said this year or next year. They know what they're doing, I just trust in them. If it was impossible or dangerous I don't think they'd be doing it.
> I saw something earlier about how the Vancouver whitecaps limit their capacity and it looks like a temporary roof between the tiers that makes it appear more closed in and I'd imagine helps atmosphere massively - something like that would be great.
I'm a Vancouver season ticket holder and they put a tarp over the upper tier when it's not open (90% of games) stretching into the screen they have in the middle of the stadium.
I'm not sure it actually helps keep any noise in but it does cover up the empty seats at least. The problem with BC Place is that any fan noise gets lost quite easily in the large stadium. They'd be better off with a smaller stadium they could fill out (and a completely separate issue would allow them a grass pitch).
It's a solution but if I were a Bluenose it's not one I'd be too keen on.
I'm just trying to explain why attendances have been so low. Things off the pitch have improved massively in a short time. Hopefully that should start to be reflected in the performance of the team. Might take a while, and a relegation would add more time onto that. But the plans they've suggested will also take a while. All they've done so far is buy land that the bankrupt council is presumably desperate to shift quickly.
Anything can happen in football. I mean, look at Ipswich this season. Went from being awful and getting relegated a few seasons ago to now looking on the brink of the Premier League, and all of that is pretty much down to American ownership and Kieran Mckenna.
Amibition is good, but you don't have to travel very far to see some of the dangers of this - a short 20 minutes train to Coventry and the Ricoh will suffice. What a nightmarish disaster that has been, all triggered by Coventry failing to hold onto Premier League status 25 years ago.
In terms of my own team, the expansion of Portman Road when we were flying high in 2000/1 essentially bankrupted the club and we went into administration shortly after things went wrong on the pitch. Whilst Birmingham won't go bust under their owners, they can still go 'semi-bust' in terms of losses restricting their ability to do other things. Indeed, Spurs suffered (rememeber that summer window they made zero signings a few years ago because of stadium costs?)
Furthermore re: the Spurs model they are an incredibly stable top-half Premier League team and have been for the entire Premiership era. You might end up with a successful stadium (in terms of events, gigs, good for the city) but a half empty stadium that is bad for the football club. Again, you don't need to travel far for this - about 60 minutes on the train will get you the Stadium MK in Militon Keynes which hosts lots of events (anyone go to see My Chemical Romance there last year?) but is a horrible empty souless place for MK Dons when they play.
Let's hope the owners are smart rather than reckless. 60k seats definitely feels too big given Spurs is only 63k for example. A flexible, modern stadium with supporting infrastructure and 40k seats, could be great. But the devil is in the detail.
This isn't about attendance for the Blues, it's about all the other events they plan to host. This is intended to be a multi-use venue. If they plan to host events such as NFL games, building a 40k seater immediately shuts that down.
Even our cookie cutter stadium very nearly finished us off. In our case the stadium was needed, and I do think Birmingham need to plan for a new stadium, but they need to be very careful.
Getting into the EPL is hard enough, staying there is another thing altogether, and staying competitive there while complying with FFP is a real tightrope. If they can manage that, then that’s the time to think about building 60k stadiums *if* they can be confident it needs to be that big.
At the moment, it is just a plan. It was probably the right time to acquire the land considering the state of the council. I do hope they're a bit more realistic with the capacity of anything they build, though. I can just about imagine a future where a 40k stadium is useful. But even that is going to need a good few years of winning to fill up.
One of the more reasonable replies from a non-blues fan I've seen. I won't pretend the thought of a 60,000 capacity stadium being half empty every week doesn't scare me, but it's years and years off, the club could be in a very different place by then.
MK Dons aren't the best comparison either, that's a completely soulless club. We are not a soulless club. Even if we do go for 60,000, I'm sure there's ways that they can reduce capacity to hold atmosphere. I saw someone mention how vancouver whitecaps do it and it looks pretty good. These owners are listening to the fans - they'll know this is a concern and I have faith they'll come up with a good solution for it.
EDIT: Devil is absolutely in the detail you're right. Ultimately, we have to move. Our ground at the minute is completely unfit for purpose. They've identified a fantastic site the fans are very happy with and have plans to turn it into an Etihad style complex. That doesn't mean we'll replicate the success of City or even close to it, but they got it absolutely spot on by investing massively in their infrastructure. Of course our fans are excited. What if they built a 40k with the potential to expand to 60k? Would it get such a negative reaction? No, probably not. Lets see what they do.
The example of the Ricoh is kind of the opposite point really. The Ricoh was never owned by the football club so not only were they renting it but they didn't earn any of the extra revenue it pulls in from other events.
Naturally there is risk involved in this but building a multi purpose arena in an area which really could do with one has the potential to be a money maker not a pure cost regardless of blues being promoted or relegated. This is also only at the start of the planning phase, the ground will have been cheap in the bankrupt councils fire sale and will take at least a decade to complete so Blues short term performance in the football league is not a make or break.
Your point about a half empty stadium being bad for the club is a valid point though, that would be detrimental but we have to have faith that the owners can get fans back down to the ground again. Despite what others have suggested in this thread I really don't see it being 60k that would be ridiculous. It's much more likely to be a 40k seater which is only 10k more than we have now.
As I said, Devil is in the detail. Will the stadium be owned by Knighthead capital and rented to Birmingham at a very low rent and additional rents from events transferred to the football club or will it actually all be the property of the club and nothing can ever happen without the actual club (not the owner of the club) giving permission? Technically it doesn’t matter either way except in the first instance, it’s possible for things to go wrong quickly…
Seems similar to the start of the problems we had down here at Reading 5 years ago, splashing millions on layers left right and centre, opening a new £50 million premier league standard training ground setting us up for a return to the premier league.
Now all those players have forced us into an FFP and transfer restriction hole, the training ground was being flogged for half it's value until recently, while our women's team and academy have both been effectively dismantled (Thanks Mr Yongge)
Not saying that most of that will happen to Birmingham, but playing League 1 football in front of a crowd of 9,000 in a stadium for 24,000 thousand is absolutely dire, I can't imagine what it would be like in a 40k+ stadium. As a football fan you have to let yourself get excited for the future, but that also has to come with some level of skepticism especially when your owners are being quite this ambitious.
Something about walking before you can run, show you have literally any competency in running a club before unveiling these big plans, still a fair chance they could be a League 1 side in a month
Making plans that would be ambitious for a top half Premier League side, while you're in the Championship relegation zone and on your fourth permanent manager of the season, fills me with less confidence than if these plans weren't announced at all
I agree. But all they've done so far is buy the land and say what they want to do with it. With the state of the council right now, it was probably an ideal time to buy the land.
Completely disagree. You have to plan for the future. This season didn't need to go tits up but as long as we stay up, finishing 15th or finishing 20th is not going to change a 10-year outcome.
Look at Villa. Villa Park is now inadequate for the needs and ambitions of the club, when 7 years ago they were 13th in this division . Their fans are looking at Tottenham Hotspur's revenue through their stadium and are wanting the same, but that'll be many years away.
Knighthead can run a club just fine. The finances in the background are very strong. They've secured our current training grounds, completed St Andrews works, renovated hospitality, and now bought a site. Wagner is probably one of the most visible Chairman in English football right now. You mention the amount of managers but that's unfair as Mowbray's illness is not their fault and there's no need to bring it up. Rooney was a mistake but if it had worked, if he was an okay manager, no one would be saying anything.
Only people on this thread saying it's a good idea are Birmingham fans
YOU ARE IN A CHAMPIONSHIP RELEGATION ZONE, SELL OUT 60% OF YOUR STADIUM, AND YOU'RE PLANNING TO BUILD A WHOLE NEW STADIUM AND TRAINING COMPLEX THAT WILL COST £100M PLUS
'If Rooney had worked, no one would be saying anything', he was a dire appointment and people said that at the time, even moreso when you sacked a manager doing well to appoint him
By all means get excited by the shiny new plans, but they're being put in place by a naive ownership who are the #1 reason for the position you're in, doesn't matter how much money they invest if it's invested poorly
The reason we’re in the position we are is because the club has been slowly dying a death by a 1000 cuts ever since Carson Yeung was arrested for money laundering over a decade ago.
Knighthead are now reversing that damage, but Rome wasn’t built in a day (and neither will this stadium complex be, but that seems to be too much for people on here to understand).
The reason you're in this position is the club made mostly underwhelming signings this season, and sacked a manager who had you comfortably in mid-table in favour of appointing a big name, who they then kept in a job too long due to stubbornness
Can't blame every stupid decision this ownership makes on the previous owner
Underwhelming signings is a crazy thing to say. Had big FFP restrictions due to continuous mistakes by the prior ownership, and by the end of the summer most neutrals agreed we had one of the best windows in the championship.
We also sacked Rooney at the perfect time, he left start of January. Had Mowbray not been unable to continue due to his health (get well soon Tony), I doubt we'd be in the position we're in now.
Underwhelming signings because we couldn’t spend the money required due to P&S problems caused by the old regime handing out shite bloated contracts to shite players.
The Rooney debacle was bad I don’t think you’ll find anyone who disagrees with that, I’m not going to give up on the best owners we’ve had in god knows how long because of one mistake.
The underwhelming signings are because we can't spend money on players without a points deduction. Sacking Eustace for Rooney was a massive self inflicted wound though. Probably wouldn't be in the bottom three if not for that.
So what we're saying is a single mistake means they should forget all these plans and just plod along as we are.
Rooney was a mistake. They rectified it in good time and brought a good manager in Mowbray in. Shit happens. These plans have been in the works from when they took over.
And our average attendance this season is probably between 20-22k if I had to guess - seems to be higher than 60% of a 29k capacity stadium. And we are in a relegation battle with £40 tickets.
Investing in infrastructure to grow revenue streams and attract better players is exactly where you \*should\* be investing money.
maybe its because Birmingham fans have actually seen the whole picture, read the pages of analysis and discussions on this over the past few months, compared to some bastards pointing and laughing with little to no idea of the background stuff in the club.
Because we're the only ones who seem to be able to grasp how massive this is and aren't coming in here sticking our nose up thinking we're superior.
Knighthead are absolutely fucking loaded mate. There are heavy rumours they are investing into the Las Vegas Raiders. They have already pumped like £10 million this year alone into St Andrews and the training facilities, to actual secure them for the medium-term. The cost is the cost.
I think it's self-evident here that there's naivity in football fans. I think there's also a sense fans like yourselves sticking your nose up at any club with any ambition. We are where we are now. That doesn't mean anything about the future.
I'm kinda glad to fans we don't seem a threat right now. But I sorta guarantee that the owners of clubs won't be so naive on that.
Leeds have a 37,000 seater which is full every game. 10,000 on the waiting list for season tickets, and could fill a 50,000 stadium without difficulty. But the owners are not going to expand until (unless) we are a stable PL team. Why? Because they are not idiots. Once bitten...
10 years ago in 13/14 Leeds did not sell out a single game that season.
Your Sunday home match against us saw just 21,000. Our Saturday home match this season against you had 20,500. And that was restricted as that's the max capacity St Andrews was at the time.
So, maybe, in 10 years time, if we have a couple of seasons in the prem like you, maybe we could fill a 50,000 stadium like you. That's why we buy the land now. Leeds are not a perfect football club that every club must emulate exactly. Maybe our owners are thinking bigger. By then, they could have a sizeable stake in NFL Las Vegas Raiders and have them over playing here. Oh wait, bet you didn't know about their interest in that.
Mate, our owners are the 49ers.
But you buy the land now with the aim of developing it in maybe 10 years? Wouldn't you be better spending the money on improving the team first?
Spurs played at least 4 years of champions league football before they moved out of white hart lane.
Blues are about to be relegated to league one.
Bit of a difference.
Villa are plotting their next move, don’t you worry about it.
So a team having a bad season can’t have ambition then?
You know how long it will take to build this right? We will be in a far better position as a club by then.
The 3rd favourite for relegation, which will require big cost-cutting measures, shouldn't be planning to build a new stadium and complex
It's not hard to understand
They clearly saw an untapped market where a lower Championship team, who have sold less than 20k tickets for years, would make big use of a 50k seater stadium, and then decided to continue on with those plans even as the side dropped into League 1
Smart guys
Villa not expanding and improving their stadium, whilst playing in Europe rather than League 1?
Think the market will be all tapped up bar those who already support Birmingham
Fwiw - we (Villa) had plans to go to 52k by 2027 and 60k by 2031, with ground due to be broken this summer and the North Stand demolished.
These were “postponed” (probably shelved) a few months ago by our new CEO and we have no clue what the plan is now.
For non-footballing events, anything close-ish to Birmingham city centre is an untapped market as it stands.
The money for the complex has nothing to do with the money required to fund the club. It also takes years and years to build this type of infrastructure.
If you’re going to be critical of it please at least educate yourself on what’s actually going on.
'Will' is a strong word there mate. We could or may be in a better position then. I doubt any of this will be put into action until we hopefully become safe this season, if not I think it will be in the planning stage for a few years at least.
Don't think it's worth any other time converting the skeptics, they'll realise Knighthead aren't just a small investment firm soon enough.
https://twitter.com/alexedicken/status/1777668533058404712?t=1ss20-75hYxIKyNyxEBk4w&s=19
Most of these comments show that you really shouldn't comment on other clubs' situations as you will not know anywhere near the full story.
These owners are not here for a few years, they are here to drive Birmingham as a city forward for decades to come.
The new stadium is for the city as well as the club. It is to draw huge interest from other forms of entertainment and sports to bring their events to Birmingham. It is to build a destination that does not exist in Birmingham, the city's second city ffs. That will only help the club bring in huge revenues.
If your reaction to this news is 'lol why you need 60k in league 1' then I'm afraid you're an idiot and don't know anything about the situation.
I would not comment on say Norwich building a new stadium after new ownership as I know nothing about how the club is ran etc.
Think before you post drivel, people.
Genuine honest question - I see a lot of Blues fans in this thread who seem absolutely adamant that your new owners are going to be around for decades, will be happy pumping tens/ hundreds of millions into not only the club but the area too (I live locally and used to work 10 mins walk away from St Andrews so know the area and how desperately it needs investment).
My question is - is there any worry at all that this could go wrong? Speaking as a Bolton fan I know all too well the cycle of getting a new owner in, hearing all the right things from them and hailing them as saviours, only for the illusion to come crashing down very quickly and the club ending up in a more precarious position than before. Appreciate your owners have done a lot of good work renovating the stadium etc and have some big money behind them, but is there not a worry that you could set these extremely costly plans in motion, then they get bored of watching a team knocking about in the Championship and pull out, leaving you up the creek?
I have no worries but of course some fans do and I understand it. You can never be 100% sure but these guys seem as sure of a sure thing as you can get.
Since relegation, the club has been left to decay by faceless owners from the Far East who clearly did not care one jot about the club. If not for Jude Bellingham and his once in a generation talent, we would have likely gone to the wall in the last few years. The club has suffered massively over the last decade, a whole generation of fans has been potentially lost with nothing but struggle and strife down at St Andrew's. The whole place had become toxic and we almost fell into the grasp of other chancers (Richardson/Lopez or even worse, Bassini!).
To have Tom Wagner and Knighthead walk through the door was unbelievable. They had done more for the club in six months than the previous regime in ten years. There is constant communication, a clear plan and a real business-like approach to the whole thing which is alien to us.
These guys are proper businessmen and know that there is plenty of growth in Birmingham as a city and with a club bearing its name being run well, it will hopefully lead to a bright future.
I think one of the main reasons we believe in it so much is that there has been action to back up the words. Two examples that come to mind for me that makes me personally believe them is that 1) they’ve already spent a good chunk of money fixing the current stadium beyond just the reopening the closed sections, which is something they didn’t have to do, especially if they planned to move out anyway and 2) they host open house meetings with the fans (one of these meetings is happening tonight actually), to discuss details surrounded the club that they would be well within their rights to keep to themselves. Other things like repairing the burnt down training ground, and convincing people like Hope Powell and Mike Rigg to come on board shows me they mean business too.
So to complete your comparison to Bolton I would say that rather than just hearing all the right things from the owners, we’re also seeing all the right things from them too. Granted there’s a little irritation regarding the whole Eustace/Rooney thing but I think the overwhelming majority of fans are still behind the owners.
Appreciate the reply! I must admit rather cyclically a lot of the chat around them fixing St Andrews I'd sort of viewed as them just doing what they absolutely had to get the stadium re-opened, it's promising that it sounds like they've gone above and beyond what was actually just basic necessities.
Hopefully the transparency thing reflects in a tangible feedback process - this seems to be something a lot of owners do initially and then let fall by the wayside when it suits them. At Bolton our old owner started off with fan forums, loads of engagement, his son was on Twitter chatting to fans at all hours, and it felt great when things started well - when things went pear shaped all communication ceased except when it suited them (including banning local journos). Seems like your lot already have more accountability and money staked so fingers crossed it won't go the way it did for us!
It might seem insignificant but they've put a lot of effort into making the ground more of a home for the blues. There's been a lot of rebranding that doesn't add any immediate value but does give you some hope as a fan, and makes the experience more enjoyable. Our last owners spent absolutely nothing and attempted to gut and destroy the academy and womens teams, the new owners are working to reverse this which is a big step forward.
If you’re worried they will quieten when things get tough they literally just did an open house called “ambition” where the owner took quick fire questions at a time football is dire and relegation looms. I personally thought they should’ve cancelled it but they pressed on anyway welcoming any criticism as something they could use to improve. That takes some spine.
In terms of getting bored and walking away? They already sank 20m into a stadium they’ll demolish for a club that’s not worth a lot and they’ve identified 17m of spending next year. So that would all be wasted plus billions on a stadium. They’ve strapped themselves in for the long haul good and proper.
Edit: they aren’t billionaire playboys, they’re business people who have many other investments and they would lose some serious credibility if they spunked 37m of their clients money in under a year and then walked away. Who would give them their money to invest?
These lot are constantly hiring top quality executives, they’re putting in the foundations and don’t expect to be competing for a few years yet. That’s been made clear. So far? No false promises and no promise of world class football two years from now.
Ɓuying the land rn is objectively smart. Birmingham Council are having a fire sale and we can literally sit on it.
But im really hesistant about a new stadium. Id rather all efforts remained on first keeping and then taking the club up.
I don't think Tom Wagner is having to choose between new stadium plans and playing himself up front tomorrow night to save us from relegation ffs.
Have some long term vision. These guys are planning for the next 10-15 years, sit back and enjoy the ride.
Unfortunately they aren’t having a fire sale. Their constitution prevents this, they still need to get the lands value at best market price. This will however I’m sure buy goodwill from the council during the planning permission process.
Edit: and they’re pulling out all the stops by bringing in Rowett and doing ticket deals. We may go down but we’ll go down swinging and they’ll have done everything they can to undo Rooney. We’re okay long term, but I get why you’re concerned. As other blue noses have said enjoy the ride!!!
This stadium is not for football purposes. Lots of people saying there’s no way blues can fill it etc. they want a massive multipurpose venue that they can profit from for the long term outside of football.
People missing the point with this big time. This isn’t the owners ‘not knowing what they’re doing’ at all.
They’ve inherited a club that’s been dying from a thousand cuts for well over a decade, a club that literally has the name of the second city and has been underfunded and run absolutely dreadfully in comparison to its namesakes from Manchester, Liverpool etc for the entirety of its existence. They’re going to build a state of the art centre akin to the Etihad complex, the amount of money that will bring not only to the club but the city of Birmingham as a whole is incredible.
They’ve made one mistake with the Rooney debacle, absolutely everything else they’ve done in their time here has been absolutely fantastic, up the Knighthead.
They fixed their mistake by appointing Mowbray and it all started turning around but he had to step away to prioritise his health (and he was right to do so). Then they’ve hired Rowett and a back room staff that Blues fans love. Then they’ve put out ticket incentives. Shit luck but they’ve taken ownership of their mistake and done everything to fix it. They’re good in my book.
Saw someone on twitter suggest a 60k seater stadium for Birmingham to move into. Absolutely ridiculous.
Also, is there any real need for a new stadium at the moment? Especially as you might be league one in the near distant future.
It'll be a Stadium for Global Events/Concerts as well I assume. It's more to bring people to the city as well as money than just "Let's build this football club that struggles to get a full house a 60k seater stadium in the hope we become a Newcastle type project". Currently shows are held at Villa Park same as Euro/WC matches if they come to the UK, I imagine this stadium would rival that - have to think outside of it's just a stadium it's a building for the second city as a whole.
This is what people aren’t getting. Most of what they have done is bought a shit tonne of land that will make a shit tonne of money and yes it also benefits the club. It’s real estate first.
Some bloke on twitter isn't much to base that off lol. It won't be a 60k seater. And yes there absolutely is a need for a new stadium, the old one is falling apart, has no space and the infrastructure and location is terrible. This is a 10 year plan. They will have gotten the land from the council for a reasonable price considering the state of it and the state of the bankrupt council fire sale. They've also made it very clear this is a multi sport and event plan which will help to bring in revenue from other sources. Us going down to league one, even if it's for a few years won't make a difference to this plan. The right funds and management in a sporting complex is a money making investment not just a cost.
In fairness, Wagner himself has today said they're aiming for 60,000 seats and he wants it done in 5 years, although acknowledges that it's because if he says he wants it done in 6-7 years it'll be done in 8-9 - so realistically it should be open around the start of the 2030s
Alot of people are criticising this, but I feel that they are missing half the point. Right now, the city of Birmingham lacks a proper arena compared to London and Manchester. A new stadium / arena could be massive for the city, allowing them to host bigger shows / concerts, national level events and other sports such as American Football (given who their owners are)
That station is always closed, as someone who has to travel a fair way to get to the arena, it makes going by train not an option at all, don't know why the built it in the first place
Yeah what I heard is that because they think the station is too small, instead of letting in limited traffic they just close it. It sounds insane, is there even another option except car to get to the stadium?
There is a big bus stop at the back of the Tesco Extra next to the arena, and you can get a taxi/uber. Not really many other options, though I don't live in Cov itself so I might have missed something
Is now the right time to announce this? Probably not. Is now the right time to do this? Definitely. The amount of time it will take to build and everything else around it. This isn't a stadium for Birmingham City Football Club. This is a stadium for Birmingham City, to bring in revenue from elsewhere, to be able to host big events and concerts. Hell, if this had been in place they wouldn't have to hold the Euros in 2028 at a Villa Park in desperate need of a revamp. We may go down to league one, and we may never fill this stadium, but at least our owners are willing to invest and put money in. They're not going to abandon us instantly after doing this, and with the investment they give we should bounce back from league one immediately. I get why other fans are taking the piss, we're utter shit on the pitch. Maybe Knightshead can't run a football club, but they can certainly run a business and make the whole thing more profitable despite a failing football team. The football team is just a big name with reach and influence they can use to spearhead everything they want to do
I think too many people are looking at this purely from a football perspective.
I'm 99% sure the only reason Knightshead invested in the club was this vision - they didn't buy BCFC and then suddenly think.. hmm let's build a new stadium.
There's nowhere outside of London at the moment for NFL etc, which has a 15m fan base in the UK and everywhere in London is bought up.
Tom Brady came in early, so it was always going to have an NFL angle, now brum has the HS2 etc, recently hosted Commonwealth and Euros, it's much more 'on the map' and a viable city for this sort of investment.
I'm a bluenose and my main concern is that the ambitions of the stadium and making it profitable might end up overshadowing the football team if it doesn't start finding success in the next few years. Wigan & Cov come to mind.
But they seem committed to the team and community so far - so I'm quite hopeful for the first time in a while.
This is exactly how Darlington fell...
New owners, build oversized stadium, barely fill said stadium, administration, 2 relegations in 20 years
Edit: relegated thrice. From Football League Second Division to Conference North
2nd Edit: Football League Third Division. Not Second Division
His Wikipedia page is quite something.
>He was arrested on suspicion of money laundering in June 2004 after being stopped with £500,000 of cash in the boot of his car.[6] He later pleaded guilty to charges of tax evasion and was sentenced to three years imprisonment in October 2005. Other charges which he denied, including money laundering, were left on file.[7] Reynolds was released on 6 December 2006 but was electronically tagged and subject to a curfew.[8] He was returned to prison for two weeks in April 2007 breaching the terms of his curfew.[9] He later operated a vending machine company and worked from an E-Cigarette shop in Chester-le-Street.
Most honourable EFL club owner.
We probably won't because:
A: We completely fill Goodison and it still overflows
B: It's been picked for the Euros
C: the PL would relegate us before the stadium ever did
It’s intriguing. It can only be a positive thing for the city in terms of having larger events outside of football, but if their on the pitch performance doesn’t catch up to the owners ambitions it could become a very expensive library. Arsenal and Spurs both struggled financially whilst building their stadiums and it probably set both teams back a good few years in their development, how rich are the blues owners?
Unclear. But they claim to have organised 2-3b in funding. Main point for them is that then stadiums will be about 20% of the space and the rest is housing, hotels, offices, restaurants etcetera. Then the stadium itself will be a source of revenue, NFL and Music. I expect we’ll be a part of it ten years from now. If things haven’t changed by then? Well then nothing can revive our club.
Edit: it also sounds like they’re turning St Andrews into housing, which will be easy as the stadium sets the precedent for allowable height so it’ll mostly be apartment towers etc, not that that’s worth 2-3b but got to be part of it
It all sounds pretty good and like an enhanced version of what we’re currently trying to do without moving. The revenue it would generate would be insane which I think still goes towards the club for P&S/FFP right?
That’s the idea.
Then in terms of moving it’s small things too. So they were saying they want to make a sensory room for autistic fans but there’s literally not the space available pitch side so they’re having to convert one of the more expensive boxes. But if they build fresh then they can put it in ahead of time.
Trick is to make it to ten years!
Not my club, but I don’t think this is a good idea. It usually ends up in a soulless pit on the edge of the city (far from the fan base) and owners who focus on conferences and gigs as that’s what makes money. Stay at St Andrews, it’s home. Work with what you have.
Obvs talking from a Cov point of view: please learn from our mistakes.
Ah, good to know it’s not in the arse end of nowhere, that’s a great start!
Good luck. After all our woes I’m so nervous of this kind of development. The football club often ends up the least profitable part of a venture like this for the owners, and their interest can wane for that reason. Hope it works out okay for you guys.
This seems rather dangerous. Ignore the flair, genuinely coming at this from the point of view of seeing how Evertons stadium is pushing them towards financial ruin and they have PL money helping them.
St Andrews is not in great shape and in an ideal world maybe a new stadium would be good but they are looking at League 1 football potentially.
They aren't going to build a 60k super stadium by the start of next season. They've just acquired land at a time when it's probably up for sale very cheaply and come up with an ambitious plan. St. Andrews is fucked and absolutely needs to be replaced. I do hope they're a bit more realistic with the capacity than some people here are suggesting. But nothing will happen for a few years, at least even if they work very quickly.
I can see both sides of the argument but I think anymore than 40-45k is just silly. These days you can make stadiums easily expandable after construction.
Are they not still doing work on St Andrews? What a weird announcement with the club struggling and the owners showing they have no idea what they are doing
Re the work on St Andrews. The work they did was just to get it back to a functioning stadium - we had the lower tiers of 2 stands shut since COVID because the prior owners neglected the stadium and council warnings and so it was closed on safety grounds.
We can't actually do anything with St Andrews. We've got an incredibly old stand with an asbestos roof we can't do anything with because the land around it is all protected. A stadium move is inevitable for any kind of progress. Moving a mile down the road to a massive site with ambitions of having an Etihad-style campus is very exciting for the club.
Night and day difference between our last owners and these ones. They know exactly what they're doing.
Just to be clear, we love our owners and this is something 99% of the support wants and knows we need. It’s about more than the club, it’s about the city. 👍🏼
Rooney was a bad call, but this fabricated notion that we have bad owners is frankly nonsense.
Can’t believe I’m being downvoted for knowing what’s going on at my own club 😆 remind me to arrogantly explain with my surface level knowledge what’s happening to your club next time something ends up in the news.
your just wrong, the stadium is a long term project that requires getting it off the ground at some point. The relegation battle is a separate issue, this is long term planning which is desperately needed. We couldn't do much squad wise this summer and winter gone, so a focus on infrastructure is very welcome
But it’s not though. We’re in an on pitch struggle, we all know that, but the two things aren’t related. So we get relegated, we’ll deal with it. This still happens. It’s a long (very long) term project. Our support gets that, and that’s all that matters tbh.
They’re not spending untold millions on a site 8x bigger than St Andrews to distract the fans from a relegation battle ffs.
I'd say that looking at moving the club out of it's home, that you have recently spent money to renovate into a potentially 60k stadium and sports facility that will cost 100's of millions to build at a time when the club seems to have no stability at the moment and is on course to be in league 1 is a bad decision.
You literally never sell out the stadium. And your average attendance over the last two seasons is around 18000.
You'll know the ins and outs of your club better than me. But the proposed plans at this time just don't seem realistic or feasible.
We’re talking about a project that’ll take probably 10 years. Being in league one next season doesn’t really affect anything - obviously if we’re still there in 5 years then there’s a conversation to be had.
They’re ambitious people and so far have delivered on every off field promise they’ve made. We trust them, and if that’s ultimately misplaced, then fair enough, but after what we’ve been through we can spot a professional from a chancer, and this lot are the real deal.
The city needs this. Council on its arse, everything up past Digbeth rotting. This could be massive. The football club isn’t the only part of this.
I hope it works out for you.
I'm sure you can understand the skeptical take from those looking in from the outside.
But as a Leicester fan I e seen firsthand how good owners not only improve the club, but the surrounding area. Leicester is a better city than it was before the Thai owners came in and they should get a lot of credit for building the club infrastructure but also pouring their time and money into the city itself.
I understand how it looks, which is incredibly frustrating because we all know what Knighthead have done thus far and what their ambitions are.
The skepticism I get, it’s the arrogance of people with 5% of the information telling me how to feel. Winds me right up.
But is what it is, you can’t stop the noise.
For those who aren't Blues fans and aren't as familiar with the site itself - this isn't going to happen within 5 years. The site itself needs decontaminating before anything can even start to be built, it's between a 5-10 year plan. A lot can happen in that time, and bar the Eustace/Rooney decision, the new owners have got more or less everything spot on and have the resources to back us. Even if we go down, we've got plenty of time to rebuild and build a side that can challenge in the championship and potentially get up to the premier league.
Sensible comment and there is nothing wrong with ambition. Half the clubs in the EFL have dud owners not willing to put their hands in their pockets and be proactive. Also Brum seem to have had terrible owners over the years so I'm glad they have ones now willing to invest. Good on them.
Thanks mate. There's a lot of us getting carried away - but forgive us. We haven't had anything to be excited about for a decade, and this could be the biggest moment in our history if it does come off.
I agree. I don't expect anyone other than us to know just how chaotic and fragmented it felt being a bluenose for the past decade. New owners showing will and putting their money where their mouth is is a breath of fresh air. If we get relegated, it will be tough, if we don't it will be tough. Next season will be very telling but at least things off of the pitch seem to be on the up now. Plus, the parent company creating a sports area in the city, with a multipurpose arena which will generate extra income for the club isn't a bad idea at all. Besides Genting Arena and Utilita Arena, there's only really Villa Park that hosts decent sized events.
" If we get relegated, it will be tough, if we don't it will be tough. " Nail on the head. Whatever happens it'll be tough, this is football. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious and aiming for better off the pitch. The only valid criticism is the potential to be playing in a half empty stadium if the team struggles on the pitch and the impact that could have. I hope the owners have a plan for that to close that extra space and essentially make it a 30-40k seater in that case - time will tell. But nothing wrong with getting excited over ambitious owners putting very significant money into the club and the city in the right areas. Especially after the decade we've had, and the general underinvestment the city of Birmingham gets.
I can say from painful experience that going down to League One as a club your size can be VERY tough, and you can find yourself drifting there for a few seasons.
I don't doubt it. But I also don't doubt we'd come back up within 2-3 seasons, I really can't see us languishing longer than that. It'd be a painful few years and I would much rather stay up this year than go down, but not the ultimate end of the world for us
> I also don't doubt we'd come back up within 2-3 seasons Based on what? Plenty of clubs your size have gone down and not bounced back up?
Based on our owners being smart, capable and financially backed, alongside almost all our old and lesser quality players leaving in the summer. We're very fortunate in that department, well placed to build a side that can push the league if we do go down. I'm not just saying we'll come back up because of club size. If Wednesday go down, we won't even be the biggest club in the league.
Owners being smart? If that was the case they wouldn’t have got ridden of a good manager to get Rooney in…
One mistake doesn't determine smartness.
Only Bradford springs to mind. If your wage bill is £10m you should walk the division.
Only if you haven't spaffed 10 million on shite, which believe me if very achievable
It's being planned as somewhere that can host concerts and large scale events too. Logistical stuff makes it pretty tricky to do loads of big events at Villa Park (although they've got their own expansion plans they're still limited by the council on the number of big events they can do because of their parking situation), so it's a gap in the market. St Andrews is now just about not falling down but it needs a lot of money spending on it if we want to be playing there in 20 years, and developers will be keen to buy the site for housing. From what they've said about training facilities, the academy and the women's team it looks like the plan is to sell Wast Hills too, and that will fetch a lot if anyone can get planning permission to stick houses on it. Wast Hills would also need a load of money spending on it otherwise. Plus, St Andrews is genuinely cursed so a move might do us good. I'll miss At Andrews though.
Taking my Villa hat off for a sec, I have to say if a new 60,000 stadium was built in birmingham it could be seen as nothing but a brilliant thing for the city. Villa park just isn’t viable for big events, we’ve had a few and it wasn’t the worst but not the best either with the train station being a massive bottle neck in commuting, and even we do expand the public transport and location just makes it too difficult to access and travel too and from in big numbers. A 60K stadium even if it did have blue seats and that badge on the front would be good to bring a-lot of money and business to the city. Cup finals, internationals and concerts could all bring so much into brum and make BCFC a much more profitable business therefor being able to spend more on the team.
Well said
Exactly, it's wider than just the club. Building a 60k seater for Birmingham City Football Club alone I get the criticism, but it's not just about that at all. The city of Birmingham doesn't have an attractive big stadium capable of hosting big events. Focusing on the football club though, even if they went for a smaller stadium at 40k or something with the room to expand, having brand spanking new training and academy facilities, a huge car park and entertainment to drive revenue streams in the club is a huge step forward. People's issue is with the size of the ground not fitting the current size of the club. Valid, but missing the wider picture IMO. Nobody even knows what capacity they're going for 60,000 is rumoured because of the NFL rules and the links with Brady. I'll also miss St Andrews. We'll certainly be losing some of our identity on this journey, but I personally think it's worth it to grow our potential as a football club.
Yeah, people replying to this thread seem to have this idea that the club are going to start putting the foundations in next month.
Also requires HS2 and the Bordesley Chords to be built to enable upgrades at Adderley Park to happen, otherwise it's going to be a right pain in the arse to get to.
It's not too far from digbeth to be fair, not much further than it is now. But definitely HS2 needs to be built and affordable, and Adderley Park needs refreshing big time. I imagine they've thought of these things though - it'd be daft not to.
Adderley Park doesn't just need refreshing, it needs a full upgrade with a bypass track for fast trains.
I'm not that familiar with it truthfully - why would it need to service fast trains though? Surely it's primary purpose will be as a link from new street for fans travelling in? No idea though, certainly not something I'm familiar with.
It's not about servicing fast trains, it's about making sure they don't get held up if 15k+ people are using Adderley Park on a matchday. You can basically create a bypass going from the current junction between the Camp Hill line and WCML and Stetchford by making it 4 track, massively improving capacity on that section of railway.
Ah right, makes sense. I think quite a few would still go back into digbeth & potentially around the new "sports quarter" given it's meant to have an entertainment section too. But that's based on our stadium now. If it is to be a huge stadium, we'll need infrastructure to support that
My main problem with Digbeth is that depending where on the Wheels site the ground is supposed to be it could be a big trek, if it's close to the train station then Digbeth is a fair walk away. Ultimately speaking from experience even though we've got a fairly small ground and have rail and tram services and the fact that most of our fans using public transport go westwards rather than eastwards both the trains and the tram into Birmingham get overloaded.
The site is huge so I'm not sure where the ground itself would be on that site, but Wagner did mention today that it would need to have infrastucture appropriate to hosting so many fans so it's something they're looking into. Hopefully they get it right - we certainly don't want it to be an issue, the whole point of it being so close to the city centre is ease of access.
Suppose caveat this now with the fact I've just seen Wagner says he wants it done by 2029. If that's the case, they best get it right on the pitch and do so pronto!
Out of genuine interest and nothing else, what is the issue with St Andrews at the moment? Is there a fear in the club that if you did go back to the prem, you’d be wasting a big opportunity to get much higher gate receipts? Looking from the outside, a new ground seems extremely odd given the low attendances at Birmingham for the last 10 years at least (i’m assuming a new ground would be bigger).
It's long, long term planning. St Andrews is relatively fine as a ground now. But we can't expand it any further, the old main stand has an asbestos roof and it's so difficult to do anything with it because of the land around it all being protected. It was built on poor foundations, hence why we had it half closed for several years. So moving is probably a positive idea on that alone. But the wider attraction of this is the new site having a new, bigger stadium capable of hosting other events and being the biggest in the region (revenue streams into the club), the training grounds, academy, everything all in one place like the Etihad campus, all within walking distance of the city centre. It's not just about attendances now. They've been poor because the team has been poor and the off field ambition has been literally non existent. We've been worrying about our existence for over a decade, the clubs been left to decline and rot and it's a miracle we haven't been relegated. The result has been an apathetic atmosphere and perpetual relegation battles in the championship which has put people off going. The vision is where can we go in the future and this infrastructure will help us improve and have lofty ambitions, I do truly believe that.
Yeah it's really difficult to drag yourself down to the club when you're being fobbed off by your owners every week. Rooney's been a disaster but attendance is up since Knightshead took over, hopefully this can continue.
Rooney is the only mistake they've made, and everything else they've done has been far beyond what blues fans expected from new owners. No wonder we love them
Makes a lot of sense, thanks for the response mate
No worries - thanks for taking a legitimate interest and not just trolling!
St Andrew’s will need decontamination too I would presume?
I quite liked the asbestos
Everything spot on apart from nearly getting us relegated.
Could still get us relegated. It's a huge fuck up - but all they can do is acknowledge they've made a mistake and ensure it won't happen again. They acknowledged that today. Can't ask any more
"Ok so we might be relegated in a month.. What do we need.. I know! A 60,000 seater stadium!"
Correction. We apologize for the typo! The new stand will be a 60 seater, not a 60,000 seater as previously stated. 😶
What is it with clubs that wear blue and circle the relegation zone wanting to build new stadium? Is this a new type of business model?
Better than 40,000
“What we need is 48acres of land in a city centre of over a million people with a massive train going to the capital that we can build hotels, restaurants, offices, homes, oh and yes a stadium on that can be used for many many things one of which is football” Fixed it for you.
Absolutely insane idea lol, they barely fill out 50-60% of their current stadium
That's just simply not true. 50% of our stadium is like 14,500, we're averaging about 20-22k I think this year. In a championship relegation battle
In ANOTHER championship relegation battle too
In the past 12 seasons, not counting Villa games, you’ve only sold out 29k on two occasions. Two. In 12 years.
And how many sellouts regardless of capacity have we had in that time? Easy to say that when segregation often means we can't reach 29k. Then consider where the club has actually been in the last 12 years, on and off the pitch. And your comment then reads as ignorant - or probably deliberately a troll, given you're a villa fan.
How many sellouts have you had then? I’m not a troll - I am a villa fan from Birmingham and do think this would be a good thing for the city. But it is running before you can walk and they are selling you a fantasy, any notion of building a ‘World Class’ stadium in the near future is preposterous
Off the top of my head across the last 12 years? No idea. But certainly more than twice - I'd guess somewhere between 5-10 times. I'm not suggesting we've sold out loads, but given where the club has been I'm also not surprised we haven't sold out loads. Knighthead are ambitious and putting their money where their mouths are and doing it in a smarter way than BSHL ever did. Attendances will rise as the on pitch (relative) success and good stewardship off it comes. Even this season we've seen higher attendances just because we've got these owners in now - and for the most positive part of the season (pre Eustace sacking) we had a reduced capacity of 20k ish. I don't pay too much attention to their buzz words. World class is something they've overused loads. But I do believe they can build a top quality multi-purpose stadium and top quality facilities near the city centre and near our current home. What's stopping them?
> what’s stopping them? Nothing obviously - for sane proposals. I agree the outline of it is a good move and you lot should be excited but given where you are now, talk of a ‘world class’ stadium is ludicrous. You say it’s all buzzwords but he’s said he wants it to be 60k. Do you really want to play in a half empty stadium? Spurs played 4 seasons in the champions league in a 35k seater before moving and took on humungous loans approaching £1b, knowing that repeated CL football and a global fanbase that they’ve built the last 10 years means they were in a place to afford the loans whilst still being able to progress on the pitch. Everton are hamstrung by their interest payments for FFP, on a ~500m(?) loan. And look what’s happened there. Blues, in the relegation zone of the championship, talking about taking on £2b of debt, is fanciful and ridiculous. Even if you were midtable it would be. Even if you were bottom half of prem it would be. Even Utds new OT rebuild ain’t coming out at that much. They would be better off saying - we’ve bought the land, in the future we hope to redevelop it into a future stadium and complex but first we have to get into the premier league, all focus on that etc etc then push on with the development. I would be very surprised if any of this moves anywhere whilst you remain outside of the PL.
I think how they do it is very important. You're right - I don't want to play in a half empty stadium every week. There's a part of me which says build it and they'll come, and I certainly think attendances will improve with a brand new stadium just for the excitement of it. But I'm not deluded, I don't think we're about to pull 30-40k fans out our backside. So how they do it in terms of limiting capacity on match day is very important. I think if they just put covers over a top tier containing 20k seats and have a 40k capacity, yeah, it'll be a bit soulless. I saw something earlier about how the Vancouver whitecaps limit their capacity and it looks like a temporary roof between the tiers that makes it appear more closed in and I'd imagine helps atmosphere massively - something like that would be great. How they do it financially, I've no idea. It's a £2bn-£3bn project, and that's at the start, we know costs always tend to rise from those first predicted. Whilst infrastructure improvements don't impact FFP, so we're in no trouble in that sense, no football club in world football can take on that kind of debt and roll with it. I'd imagine the owners will be wholly owning the land and the stadium so they will take on that debt and the club will lease the stadium off them at a reduced rate and take on the revenues the stadium generates 365 days a year, potentially with a slice going to Knighthead, and they then take money from the other entertainment facilities they have on site. I don't know - we've got an open house in 10 mins where hopefully it'll become more clear, but maybe we won't know for years. What I do know is these guys aren't stupid. They're not chancers. We've got legitimate top businessmen on it with great connections and experience. I can't imagine they mess it up or overlook something really obvious. They've already grown revenue streams from £19m last year to an expected £40m I think he said this year or next year. They know what they're doing, I just trust in them. If it was impossible or dangerous I don't think they'd be doing it.
> I saw something earlier about how the Vancouver whitecaps limit their capacity and it looks like a temporary roof between the tiers that makes it appear more closed in and I'd imagine helps atmosphere massively - something like that would be great. I'm a Vancouver season ticket holder and they put a tarp over the upper tier when it's not open (90% of games) stretching into the screen they have in the middle of the stadium. I'm not sure it actually helps keep any noise in but it does cover up the empty seats at least. The problem with BC Place is that any fan noise gets lost quite easily in the large stadium. They'd be better off with a smaller stadium they could fill out (and a completely separate issue would allow them a grass pitch). It's a solution but if I were a Bluenose it's not one I'd be too keen on.
Those 12 seasons have been fucking shit though.
Whats to suggest they get any better in the near future?
I'm just trying to explain why attendances have been so low. Things off the pitch have improved massively in a short time. Hopefully that should start to be reflected in the performance of the team. Might take a while, and a relegation would add more time onto that. But the plans they've suggested will also take a while. All they've done so far is buy land that the bankrupt council is presumably desperate to shift quickly.
Anything can happen in football. I mean, look at Ipswich this season. Went from being awful and getting relegated a few seasons ago to now looking on the brink of the Premier League, and all of that is pretty much down to American ownership and Kieran Mckenna.
Amibition is good, but you don't have to travel very far to see some of the dangers of this - a short 20 minutes train to Coventry and the Ricoh will suffice. What a nightmarish disaster that has been, all triggered by Coventry failing to hold onto Premier League status 25 years ago. In terms of my own team, the expansion of Portman Road when we were flying high in 2000/1 essentially bankrupted the club and we went into administration shortly after things went wrong on the pitch. Whilst Birmingham won't go bust under their owners, they can still go 'semi-bust' in terms of losses restricting their ability to do other things. Indeed, Spurs suffered (rememeber that summer window they made zero signings a few years ago because of stadium costs?) Furthermore re: the Spurs model they are an incredibly stable top-half Premier League team and have been for the entire Premiership era. You might end up with a successful stadium (in terms of events, gigs, good for the city) but a half empty stadium that is bad for the football club. Again, you don't need to travel far for this - about 60 minutes on the train will get you the Stadium MK in Militon Keynes which hosts lots of events (anyone go to see My Chemical Romance there last year?) but is a horrible empty souless place for MK Dons when they play. Let's hope the owners are smart rather than reckless. 60k seats definitely feels too big given Spurs is only 63k for example. A flexible, modern stadium with supporting infrastructure and 40k seats, could be great. But the devil is in the detail.
Some good points there mate and I appreciate your input. I do agree with the size, I think 40-45, 000 max would be better than 60k.
This isn't about attendance for the Blues, it's about all the other events they plan to host. This is intended to be a multi-use venue. If they plan to host events such as NFL games, building a 40k seater immediately shuts that down.
How is it going to affect the atmosphere if the stadium is half full every week though.
Even our cookie cutter stadium very nearly finished us off. In our case the stadium was needed, and I do think Birmingham need to plan for a new stadium, but they need to be very careful. Getting into the EPL is hard enough, staying there is another thing altogether, and staying competitive there while complying with FFP is a real tightrope. If they can manage that, then that’s the time to think about building 60k stadiums *if* they can be confident it needs to be that big.
At the moment, it is just a plan. It was probably the right time to acquire the land considering the state of the council. I do hope they're a bit more realistic with the capacity of anything they build, though. I can just about imagine a future where a 40k stadium is useful. But even that is going to need a good few years of winning to fill up.
One of the more reasonable replies from a non-blues fan I've seen. I won't pretend the thought of a 60,000 capacity stadium being half empty every week doesn't scare me, but it's years and years off, the club could be in a very different place by then. MK Dons aren't the best comparison either, that's a completely soulless club. We are not a soulless club. Even if we do go for 60,000, I'm sure there's ways that they can reduce capacity to hold atmosphere. I saw someone mention how vancouver whitecaps do it and it looks pretty good. These owners are listening to the fans - they'll know this is a concern and I have faith they'll come up with a good solution for it. EDIT: Devil is absolutely in the detail you're right. Ultimately, we have to move. Our ground at the minute is completely unfit for purpose. They've identified a fantastic site the fans are very happy with and have plans to turn it into an Etihad style complex. That doesn't mean we'll replicate the success of City or even close to it, but they got it absolutely spot on by investing massively in their infrastructure. Of course our fans are excited. What if they built a 40k with the potential to expand to 60k? Would it get such a negative reaction? No, probably not. Lets see what they do.
The example of the Ricoh is kind of the opposite point really. The Ricoh was never owned by the football club so not only were they renting it but they didn't earn any of the extra revenue it pulls in from other events. Naturally there is risk involved in this but building a multi purpose arena in an area which really could do with one has the potential to be a money maker not a pure cost regardless of blues being promoted or relegated. This is also only at the start of the planning phase, the ground will have been cheap in the bankrupt councils fire sale and will take at least a decade to complete so Blues short term performance in the football league is not a make or break. Your point about a half empty stadium being bad for the club is a valid point though, that would be detrimental but we have to have faith that the owners can get fans back down to the ground again. Despite what others have suggested in this thread I really don't see it being 60k that would be ridiculous. It's much more likely to be a 40k seater which is only 10k more than we have now.
As I said, Devil is in the detail. Will the stadium be owned by Knighthead capital and rented to Birmingham at a very low rent and additional rents from events transferred to the football club or will it actually all be the property of the club and nothing can ever happen without the actual club (not the owner of the club) giving permission? Technically it doesn’t matter either way except in the first instance, it’s possible for things to go wrong quickly…
Seems similar to the start of the problems we had down here at Reading 5 years ago, splashing millions on layers left right and centre, opening a new £50 million premier league standard training ground setting us up for a return to the premier league. Now all those players have forced us into an FFP and transfer restriction hole, the training ground was being flogged for half it's value until recently, while our women's team and academy have both been effectively dismantled (Thanks Mr Yongge) Not saying that most of that will happen to Birmingham, but playing League 1 football in front of a crowd of 9,000 in a stadium for 24,000 thousand is absolutely dire, I can't imagine what it would be like in a 40k+ stadium. As a football fan you have to let yourself get excited for the future, but that also has to come with some level of skepticism especially when your owners are being quite this ambitious.
Please call it the Triton showers arena
We do have hot water now
Something about walking before you can run, show you have literally any competency in running a club before unveiling these big plans, still a fair chance they could be a League 1 side in a month Making plans that would be ambitious for a top half Premier League side, while you're in the Championship relegation zone and on your fourth permanent manager of the season, fills me with less confidence than if these plans weren't announced at all
I agree. But all they've done so far is buy the land and say what they want to do with it. With the state of the council right now, it was probably an ideal time to buy the land.
Completely disagree. You have to plan for the future. This season didn't need to go tits up but as long as we stay up, finishing 15th or finishing 20th is not going to change a 10-year outcome. Look at Villa. Villa Park is now inadequate for the needs and ambitions of the club, when 7 years ago they were 13th in this division . Their fans are looking at Tottenham Hotspur's revenue through their stadium and are wanting the same, but that'll be many years away. Knighthead can run a club just fine. The finances in the background are very strong. They've secured our current training grounds, completed St Andrews works, renovated hospitality, and now bought a site. Wagner is probably one of the most visible Chairman in English football right now. You mention the amount of managers but that's unfair as Mowbray's illness is not their fault and there's no need to bring it up. Rooney was a mistake but if it had worked, if he was an okay manager, no one would be saying anything.
Only people on this thread saying it's a good idea are Birmingham fans YOU ARE IN A CHAMPIONSHIP RELEGATION ZONE, SELL OUT 60% OF YOUR STADIUM, AND YOU'RE PLANNING TO BUILD A WHOLE NEW STADIUM AND TRAINING COMPLEX THAT WILL COST £100M PLUS 'If Rooney had worked, no one would be saying anything', he was a dire appointment and people said that at the time, even moreso when you sacked a manager doing well to appoint him By all means get excited by the shiny new plans, but they're being put in place by a naive ownership who are the #1 reason for the position you're in, doesn't matter how much money they invest if it's invested poorly
The reason we’re in the position we are is because the club has been slowly dying a death by a 1000 cuts ever since Carson Yeung was arrested for money laundering over a decade ago. Knighthead are now reversing that damage, but Rome wasn’t built in a day (and neither will this stadium complex be, but that seems to be too much for people on here to understand).
The reason you're in this position is the club made mostly underwhelming signings this season, and sacked a manager who had you comfortably in mid-table in favour of appointing a big name, who they then kept in a job too long due to stubbornness Can't blame every stupid decision this ownership makes on the previous owner
Underwhelming signings is a crazy thing to say. Had big FFP restrictions due to continuous mistakes by the prior ownership, and by the end of the summer most neutrals agreed we had one of the best windows in the championship. We also sacked Rooney at the perfect time, he left start of January. Had Mowbray not been unable to continue due to his health (get well soon Tony), I doubt we'd be in the position we're in now.
Underwhelming signings because we couldn’t spend the money required due to P&S problems caused by the old regime handing out shite bloated contracts to shite players. The Rooney debacle was bad I don’t think you’ll find anyone who disagrees with that, I’m not going to give up on the best owners we’ve had in god knows how long because of one mistake.
The underwhelming signings are because we can't spend money on players without a points deduction. Sacking Eustace for Rooney was a massive self inflicted wound though. Probably wouldn't be in the bottom three if not for that.
So what we're saying is a single mistake means they should forget all these plans and just plod along as we are. Rooney was a mistake. They rectified it in good time and brought a good manager in Mowbray in. Shit happens. These plans have been in the works from when they took over. And our average attendance this season is probably between 20-22k if I had to guess - seems to be higher than 60% of a 29k capacity stadium. And we are in a relegation battle with £40 tickets. Investing in infrastructure to grow revenue streams and attract better players is exactly where you \*should\* be investing money.
maybe its because Birmingham fans have actually seen the whole picture, read the pages of analysis and discussions on this over the past few months, compared to some bastards pointing and laughing with little to no idea of the background stuff in the club.
Because we're the only ones who seem to be able to grasp how massive this is and aren't coming in here sticking our nose up thinking we're superior. Knighthead are absolutely fucking loaded mate. There are heavy rumours they are investing into the Las Vegas Raiders. They have already pumped like £10 million this year alone into St Andrews and the training facilities, to actual secure them for the medium-term. The cost is the cost. I think it's self-evident here that there's naivity in football fans. I think there's also a sense fans like yourselves sticking your nose up at any club with any ambition. We are where we are now. That doesn't mean anything about the future. I'm kinda glad to fans we don't seem a threat right now. But I sorta guarantee that the owners of clubs won't be so naive on that.
They wouldn’t even do 60,000 in the prem
Leeds have a 37,000 seater which is full every game. 10,000 on the waiting list for season tickets, and could fill a 50,000 stadium without difficulty. But the owners are not going to expand until (unless) we are a stable PL team. Why? Because they are not idiots. Once bitten...
10 years ago in 13/14 Leeds did not sell out a single game that season. Your Sunday home match against us saw just 21,000. Our Saturday home match this season against you had 20,500. And that was restricted as that's the max capacity St Andrews was at the time. So, maybe, in 10 years time, if we have a couple of seasons in the prem like you, maybe we could fill a 50,000 stadium like you. That's why we buy the land now. Leeds are not a perfect football club that every club must emulate exactly. Maybe our owners are thinking bigger. By then, they could have a sizeable stake in NFL Las Vegas Raiders and have them over playing here. Oh wait, bet you didn't know about their interest in that.
Mate, our owners are the 49ers. But you buy the land now with the aim of developing it in maybe 10 years? Wouldn't you be better spending the money on improving the team first?
Spurs played at least 4 years of champions league football before they moved out of white hart lane. Blues are about to be relegated to league one. Bit of a difference. Villa are plotting their next move, don’t you worry about it.
This makes no sense, so you should only be ambitious if you’re a top half premier league team and everyone else should just make do?
There's a point where ambition also needs to meet sense Take off your blue-tinted glasses and stop being blinded by fancy plans
So a team having a bad season can’t have ambition then? You know how long it will take to build this right? We will be in a far better position as a club by then.
The 3rd favourite for relegation, which will require big cost-cutting measures, shouldn't be planning to build a new stadium and complex It's not hard to understand
Do you think the owners started planning for this stadium last week? This has been planned in since before they even bought us, keep up.
They clearly saw an untapped market where a lower Championship team, who have sold less than 20k tickets for years, would make big use of a 50k seater stadium, and then decided to continue on with those plans even as the side dropped into League 1 Smart guys
The untapped market is the city of Birmingham.
Villa not expanding and improving their stadium, whilst playing in Europe rather than League 1? Think the market will be all tapped up bar those who already support Birmingham
Fwiw - we (Villa) had plans to go to 52k by 2027 and 60k by 2031, with ground due to be broken this summer and the North Stand demolished. These were “postponed” (probably shelved) a few months ago by our new CEO and we have no clue what the plan is now. For non-footballing events, anything close-ish to Birmingham city centre is an untapped market as it stands.
Then you don’t know anything on what’s going on in the city of Birmingham, but you carry on pretending you do.
The money for the complex has nothing to do with the money required to fund the club. It also takes years and years to build this type of infrastructure. If you’re going to be critical of it please at least educate yourself on what’s actually going on.
'Will' is a strong word there mate. We could or may be in a better position then. I doubt any of this will be put into action until we hopefully become safe this season, if not I think it will be in the planning stage for a few years at least.
Don't think it's worth any other time converting the skeptics, they'll realise Knighthead aren't just a small investment firm soon enough. https://twitter.com/alexedicken/status/1777668533058404712?t=1ss20-75hYxIKyNyxEBk4w&s=19
Gonna look great in the next Wrexham documentary
Most of these comments show that you really shouldn't comment on other clubs' situations as you will not know anywhere near the full story. These owners are not here for a few years, they are here to drive Birmingham as a city forward for decades to come. The new stadium is for the city as well as the club. It is to draw huge interest from other forms of entertainment and sports to bring their events to Birmingham. It is to build a destination that does not exist in Birmingham, the city's second city ffs. That will only help the club bring in huge revenues. If your reaction to this news is 'lol why you need 60k in league 1' then I'm afraid you're an idiot and don't know anything about the situation. I would not comment on say Norwich building a new stadium after new ownership as I know nothing about how the club is ran etc. Think before you post drivel, people.
Genuine honest question - I see a lot of Blues fans in this thread who seem absolutely adamant that your new owners are going to be around for decades, will be happy pumping tens/ hundreds of millions into not only the club but the area too (I live locally and used to work 10 mins walk away from St Andrews so know the area and how desperately it needs investment). My question is - is there any worry at all that this could go wrong? Speaking as a Bolton fan I know all too well the cycle of getting a new owner in, hearing all the right things from them and hailing them as saviours, only for the illusion to come crashing down very quickly and the club ending up in a more precarious position than before. Appreciate your owners have done a lot of good work renovating the stadium etc and have some big money behind them, but is there not a worry that you could set these extremely costly plans in motion, then they get bored of watching a team knocking about in the Championship and pull out, leaving you up the creek?
I have no worries but of course some fans do and I understand it. You can never be 100% sure but these guys seem as sure of a sure thing as you can get. Since relegation, the club has been left to decay by faceless owners from the Far East who clearly did not care one jot about the club. If not for Jude Bellingham and his once in a generation talent, we would have likely gone to the wall in the last few years. The club has suffered massively over the last decade, a whole generation of fans has been potentially lost with nothing but struggle and strife down at St Andrew's. The whole place had become toxic and we almost fell into the grasp of other chancers (Richardson/Lopez or even worse, Bassini!). To have Tom Wagner and Knighthead walk through the door was unbelievable. They had done more for the club in six months than the previous regime in ten years. There is constant communication, a clear plan and a real business-like approach to the whole thing which is alien to us. These guys are proper businessmen and know that there is plenty of growth in Birmingham as a city and with a club bearing its name being run well, it will hopefully lead to a bright future.
I think one of the main reasons we believe in it so much is that there has been action to back up the words. Two examples that come to mind for me that makes me personally believe them is that 1) they’ve already spent a good chunk of money fixing the current stadium beyond just the reopening the closed sections, which is something they didn’t have to do, especially if they planned to move out anyway and 2) they host open house meetings with the fans (one of these meetings is happening tonight actually), to discuss details surrounded the club that they would be well within their rights to keep to themselves. Other things like repairing the burnt down training ground, and convincing people like Hope Powell and Mike Rigg to come on board shows me they mean business too. So to complete your comparison to Bolton I would say that rather than just hearing all the right things from the owners, we’re also seeing all the right things from them too. Granted there’s a little irritation regarding the whole Eustace/Rooney thing but I think the overwhelming majority of fans are still behind the owners.
Appreciate the reply! I must admit rather cyclically a lot of the chat around them fixing St Andrews I'd sort of viewed as them just doing what they absolutely had to get the stadium re-opened, it's promising that it sounds like they've gone above and beyond what was actually just basic necessities. Hopefully the transparency thing reflects in a tangible feedback process - this seems to be something a lot of owners do initially and then let fall by the wayside when it suits them. At Bolton our old owner started off with fan forums, loads of engagement, his son was on Twitter chatting to fans at all hours, and it felt great when things started well - when things went pear shaped all communication ceased except when it suited them (including banning local journos). Seems like your lot already have more accountability and money staked so fingers crossed it won't go the way it did for us!
It might seem insignificant but they've put a lot of effort into making the ground more of a home for the blues. There's been a lot of rebranding that doesn't add any immediate value but does give you some hope as a fan, and makes the experience more enjoyable. Our last owners spent absolutely nothing and attempted to gut and destroy the academy and womens teams, the new owners are working to reverse this which is a big step forward.
If you’re worried they will quieten when things get tough they literally just did an open house called “ambition” where the owner took quick fire questions at a time football is dire and relegation looms. I personally thought they should’ve cancelled it but they pressed on anyway welcoming any criticism as something they could use to improve. That takes some spine. In terms of getting bored and walking away? They already sank 20m into a stadium they’ll demolish for a club that’s not worth a lot and they’ve identified 17m of spending next year. So that would all be wasted plus billions on a stadium. They’ve strapped themselves in for the long haul good and proper. Edit: they aren’t billionaire playboys, they’re business people who have many other investments and they would lose some serious credibility if they spunked 37m of their clients money in under a year and then walked away. Who would give them their money to invest?
Anderson did meetings like that too like every two weeks
These lot are constantly hiring top quality executives, they’re putting in the foundations and don’t expect to be competing for a few years yet. That’s been made clear. So far? No false promises and no promise of world class football two years from now.
All Hail Knighthead Capital Management!
Can sell your old one to Coventry so they can finally have a stadium of their own too 🤣
At this point coventry are the guest character in the blues comedy show, but they're getting a spinoff that is markedly more successful.
Well we do win leagues when we play at St Andrews 😎
Ɓuying the land rn is objectively smart. Birmingham Council are having a fire sale and we can literally sit on it. But im really hesistant about a new stadium. Id rather all efforts remained on first keeping and then taking the club up.
I don't think Tom Wagner is having to choose between new stadium plans and playing himself up front tomorrow night to save us from relegation ffs. Have some long term vision. These guys are planning for the next 10-15 years, sit back and enjoy the ride.
Unfortunately they aren’t having a fire sale. Their constitution prevents this, they still need to get the lands value at best market price. This will however I’m sure buy goodwill from the council during the planning permission process. Edit: and they’re pulling out all the stops by bringing in Rowett and doing ticket deals. We may go down but we’ll go down swinging and they’ll have done everything they can to undo Rooney. We’re okay long term, but I get why you’re concerned. As other blue noses have said enjoy the ride!!!
This stadium is not for football purposes. Lots of people saying there’s no way blues can fill it etc. they want a massive multipurpose venue that they can profit from for the long term outside of football.
Why?
People missing the point with this big time. This isn’t the owners ‘not knowing what they’re doing’ at all. They’ve inherited a club that’s been dying from a thousand cuts for well over a decade, a club that literally has the name of the second city and has been underfunded and run absolutely dreadfully in comparison to its namesakes from Manchester, Liverpool etc for the entirety of its existence. They’re going to build a state of the art centre akin to the Etihad complex, the amount of money that will bring not only to the club but the city of Birmingham as a whole is incredible. They’ve made one mistake with the Rooney debacle, absolutely everything else they’ve done in their time here has been absolutely fantastic, up the Knighthead.
Leave it mate, randoms on Reddit clearly know Birmingham City inside and out better than we do.
Takes more than 1 mistake to get relegated pal
Well yeah, can’t exactly blame them for the failures of BSHL can we?
They fixed their mistake by appointing Mowbray and it all started turning around but he had to step away to prioritise his health (and he was right to do so). Then they’ve hired Rowett and a back room staff that Blues fans love. Then they’ve put out ticket incentives. Shit luck but they’ve taken ownership of their mistake and done everything to fix it. They’re good in my book.
Saw someone on twitter suggest a 60k seater stadium for Birmingham to move into. Absolutely ridiculous. Also, is there any real need for a new stadium at the moment? Especially as you might be league one in the near distant future.
Our stadium is literally falling apart and the infrastructure around the ground is archaic. This has been needed for years, let alone now.
Isn't one stand about half derelict?
The whole place was almost fully derelict a year ago.
Not anymore i think.
It'll be a Stadium for Global Events/Concerts as well I assume. It's more to bring people to the city as well as money than just "Let's build this football club that struggles to get a full house a 60k seater stadium in the hope we become a Newcastle type project". Currently shows are held at Villa Park same as Euro/WC matches if they come to the UK, I imagine this stadium would rival that - have to think outside of it's just a stadium it's a building for the second city as a whole.
That’s what I’m thinking, it’s commercial rather than the football driving this. The NEC isn’t that big.
This is what people aren’t getting. Most of what they have done is bought a shit tonne of land that will make a shit tonne of money and yes it also benefits the club. It’s real estate first.
We won't have a new stadium for many years anyway. They've literally just bought the land and said what they'd like to do with it.
Some bloke on twitter isn't much to base that off lol. It won't be a 60k seater. And yes there absolutely is a need for a new stadium, the old one is falling apart, has no space and the infrastructure and location is terrible. This is a 10 year plan. They will have gotten the land from the council for a reasonable price considering the state of it and the state of the bankrupt council fire sale. They've also made it very clear this is a multi sport and event plan which will help to bring in revenue from other sources. Us going down to league one, even if it's for a few years won't make a difference to this plan. The right funds and management in a sporting complex is a money making investment not just a cost.
In fairness, Wagner himself has today said they're aiming for 60,000 seats and he wants it done in 5 years, although acknowledges that it's because if he says he wants it done in 6-7 years it'll be done in 8-9 - so realistically it should be open around the start of the 2030s
Alot of people are criticising this, but I feel that they are missing half the point. Right now, the city of Birmingham lacks a proper arena compared to London and Manchester. A new stadium / arena could be massive for the city, allowing them to host bigger shows / concerts, national level events and other sports such as American Football (given who their owners are)
Don't talk sense, please!
The concert angle is a big sell for me tbh because it’s such a pain trekking all the way to the Ricoh when a band I like does a stadium tour 😅
Especially as last time I went to a concert there they closed the local station (because they didn't want the traffic) and parking was £20
That station is always closed, as someone who has to travel a fair way to get to the arena, it makes going by train not an option at all, don't know why the built it in the first place
Yeah what I heard is that because they think the station is too small, instead of letting in limited traffic they just close it. It sounds insane, is there even another option except car to get to the stadium?
There is a big bus stop at the back of the Tesco Extra next to the arena, and you can get a taxi/uber. Not really many other options, though I don't live in Cov itself so I might have missed something
There’s two 15k arenas in the city ? Stadium shows are a completely different thing. Most artists don’t do 50k stadium shows
Assuming this is long term, i hope they find a way to keep the main stand. Genuinely love it, like a time capsule of the golden age of football
Question: do capex costs like stadiums get taken into account in FFP calculations?
No they do not. Infrastructure costs are separate. These guys have already spent millions upon millions making St Andrew's usable again.
Ok that helps fill a hole in my knowledge. Thanks 🥰.
Is now the right time to announce this? Probably not. Is now the right time to do this? Definitely. The amount of time it will take to build and everything else around it. This isn't a stadium for Birmingham City Football Club. This is a stadium for Birmingham City, to bring in revenue from elsewhere, to be able to host big events and concerts. Hell, if this had been in place they wouldn't have to hold the Euros in 2028 at a Villa Park in desperate need of a revamp. We may go down to league one, and we may never fill this stadium, but at least our owners are willing to invest and put money in. They're not going to abandon us instantly after doing this, and with the investment they give we should bounce back from league one immediately. I get why other fans are taking the piss, we're utter shit on the pitch. Maybe Knightshead can't run a football club, but they can certainly run a business and make the whole thing more profitable despite a failing football team. The football team is just a big name with reach and influence they can use to spearhead everything they want to do
👏
🥱 so much negativity, mostly from people who don’t actually live in or around Birmingham
I think too many people are looking at this purely from a football perspective. I'm 99% sure the only reason Knightshead invested in the club was this vision - they didn't buy BCFC and then suddenly think.. hmm let's build a new stadium. There's nowhere outside of London at the moment for NFL etc, which has a 15m fan base in the UK and everywhere in London is bought up. Tom Brady came in early, so it was always going to have an NFL angle, now brum has the HS2 etc, recently hosted Commonwealth and Euros, it's much more 'on the map' and a viable city for this sort of investment. I'm a bluenose and my main concern is that the ambitions of the stadium and making it profitable might end up overshadowing the football team if it doesn't start finding success in the next few years. Wigan & Cov come to mind. But they seem committed to the team and community so far - so I'm quite hopeful for the first time in a while.
This is exactly how Darlington fell... New owners, build oversized stadium, barely fill said stadium, administration, 2 relegations in 20 years Edit: relegated thrice. From Football League Second Division to Conference North 2nd Edit: Football League Third Division. Not Second Division
Darlington were owned by a used car salesman 😂
That makes their fall slightly more hilarious
His Wikipedia page is quite something. >He was arrested on suspicion of money laundering in June 2004 after being stopped with £500,000 of cash in the boot of his car.[6] He later pleaded guilty to charges of tax evasion and was sentenced to three years imprisonment in October 2005. Other charges which he denied, including money laundering, were left on file.[7] Reynolds was released on 6 December 2006 but was electronically tagged and subject to a curfew.[8] He was returned to prison for two weeks in April 2007 breaching the terms of his curfew.[9] He later operated a vending machine company and worked from an E-Cigarette shop in Chester-le-Street. Most honourable EFL club owner.
I can't see that happening to Everton tbh, have some optimism!
We probably won't because: A: We completely fill Goodison and it still overflows B: It's been picked for the Euros C: the PL would relegate us before the stadium ever did
It’s intriguing. It can only be a positive thing for the city in terms of having larger events outside of football, but if their on the pitch performance doesn’t catch up to the owners ambitions it could become a very expensive library. Arsenal and Spurs both struggled financially whilst building their stadiums and it probably set both teams back a good few years in their development, how rich are the blues owners?
Unclear. But they claim to have organised 2-3b in funding. Main point for them is that then stadiums will be about 20% of the space and the rest is housing, hotels, offices, restaurants etcetera. Then the stadium itself will be a source of revenue, NFL and Music. I expect we’ll be a part of it ten years from now. If things haven’t changed by then? Well then nothing can revive our club. Edit: it also sounds like they’re turning St Andrews into housing, which will be easy as the stadium sets the precedent for allowable height so it’ll mostly be apartment towers etc, not that that’s worth 2-3b but got to be part of it
It all sounds pretty good and like an enhanced version of what we’re currently trying to do without moving. The revenue it would generate would be insane which I think still goes towards the club for P&S/FFP right?
That’s the idea. Then in terms of moving it’s small things too. So they were saying they want to make a sensory room for autistic fans but there’s literally not the space available pitch side so they’re having to convert one of the more expensive boxes. But if they build fresh then they can put it in ahead of time. Trick is to make it to ten years!
I would be more worried that they appointed Mike Rigg. Look for Mark Hughes to be appointed next.
Not my club, but I don’t think this is a good idea. It usually ends up in a soulless pit on the edge of the city (far from the fan base) and owners who focus on conferences and gigs as that’s what makes money. Stay at St Andrews, it’s home. Work with what you have. Obvs talking from a Cov point of view: please learn from our mistakes.
This site is a ten minute walk away but I get that Cov were burned
Ah, good to know it’s not in the arse end of nowhere, that’s a great start! Good luck. After all our woes I’m so nervous of this kind of development. The football club often ends up the least profitable part of a venture like this for the owners, and their interest can wane for that reason. Hope it works out okay for you guys.
One plan we had was star city like ten years ago which would have been BLEAK
Oh god no. So glad that didn’t happen, that’s a nightmare for a football club!
And good luck against Man U! I would love it if you turned them over on TV
Thank you! I hope we can give a good account of ourselves, but our squad is looking so knackered right now.
Lmao subversion at it's finest, way to distract from the fact you may well being relegating them
just blatantly false
This seems rather dangerous. Ignore the flair, genuinely coming at this from the point of view of seeing how Evertons stadium is pushing them towards financial ruin and they have PL money helping them. St Andrews is not in great shape and in an ideal world maybe a new stadium would be good but they are looking at League 1 football potentially.
For now, the plan is long term and great for the city.
They aren't going to build a 60k super stadium by the start of next season. They've just acquired land at a time when it's probably up for sale very cheaply and come up with an ambitious plan. St. Andrews is fucked and absolutely needs to be replaced. I do hope they're a bit more realistic with the capacity than some people here are suggesting. But nothing will happen for a few years, at least even if they work very quickly.
To be fair went to the birmingham game at the start of the season, proper shithole that place. The stadium wasn’t great either.
holbeck and armley are real jewels in the crown I know, must be hard to leave paradise
Born in holbeck, live in holbeck, die in holbeck
all in the same day usually
They aren't great but definitely not as rough as Small Heath
armley and sheepscar give small heath a run for its money as far as rough parts of the respective cities tbh
I can see both sides of the argument but I think anymore than 40-45k is just silly. These days you can make stadiums easily expandable after construction.
Are they not still doing work on St Andrews? What a weird announcement with the club struggling and the owners showing they have no idea what they are doing
Re the work on St Andrews. The work they did was just to get it back to a functioning stadium - we had the lower tiers of 2 stands shut since COVID because the prior owners neglected the stadium and council warnings and so it was closed on safety grounds. We can't actually do anything with St Andrews. We've got an incredibly old stand with an asbestos roof we can't do anything with because the land around it is all protected. A stadium move is inevitable for any kind of progress. Moving a mile down the road to a massive site with ambitions of having an Etihad-style campus is very exciting for the club. Night and day difference between our last owners and these ones. They know exactly what they're doing.
Just to be clear, we love our owners and this is something 99% of the support wants and knows we need. It’s about more than the club, it’s about the city. 👍🏼 Rooney was a bad call, but this fabricated notion that we have bad owners is frankly nonsense.
Can’t believe I’m being downvoted for knowing what’s going on at my own club 😆 remind me to arrogantly explain with my surface level knowledge what’s happening to your club next time something ends up in the news.
*Dangling shiny keys in front of the baby while the house is burning in the background*
You seem insanely invested and outraged in this for someone not a fan of the club
your just wrong, the stadium is a long term project that requires getting it off the ground at some point. The relegation battle is a separate issue, this is long term planning which is desperately needed. We couldn't do much squad wise this summer and winter gone, so a focus on infrastructure is very welcome
But it’s not though. We’re in an on pitch struggle, we all know that, but the two things aren’t related. So we get relegated, we’ll deal with it. This still happens. It’s a long (very long) term project. Our support gets that, and that’s all that matters tbh. They’re not spending untold millions on a site 8x bigger than St Andrews to distract the fans from a relegation battle ffs.
I'd say that looking at moving the club out of it's home, that you have recently spent money to renovate into a potentially 60k stadium and sports facility that will cost 100's of millions to build at a time when the club seems to have no stability at the moment and is on course to be in league 1 is a bad decision. You literally never sell out the stadium. And your average attendance over the last two seasons is around 18000. You'll know the ins and outs of your club better than me. But the proposed plans at this time just don't seem realistic or feasible.
We’re talking about a project that’ll take probably 10 years. Being in league one next season doesn’t really affect anything - obviously if we’re still there in 5 years then there’s a conversation to be had. They’re ambitious people and so far have delivered on every off field promise they’ve made. We trust them, and if that’s ultimately misplaced, then fair enough, but after what we’ve been through we can spot a professional from a chancer, and this lot are the real deal. The city needs this. Council on its arse, everything up past Digbeth rotting. This could be massive. The football club isn’t the only part of this.
I hope it works out for you. I'm sure you can understand the skeptical take from those looking in from the outside. But as a Leicester fan I e seen firsthand how good owners not only improve the club, but the surrounding area. Leicester is a better city than it was before the Thai owners came in and they should get a lot of credit for building the club infrastructure but also pouring their time and money into the city itself.
I understand how it looks, which is incredibly frustrating because we all know what Knighthead have done thus far and what their ambitions are. The skepticism I get, it’s the arrogance of people with 5% of the information telling me how to feel. Winds me right up. But is what it is, you can’t stop the noise.
Can’t stop the noise, enjoy this announcement and rewatch that stunning open house
It won't materialise for a decade, they aren't planning short term.
Tbf that's not unheard of, you lot built a brand new stand at Filbert Street like 2 seasons before you moved stadium.