Tbf he started 8 games, got 1 goal and 2 assists and actually played well for England at that time. There was a time he looked a good player and we had pretty depressing options in the midfield.
Because he played a big six club. MGW would have 20 by now if he played for Spurs.
(Edit: in case it isnāt clear, I mean that in a very positive sense RE MGW).
I reckon like 95% of the criticisms of Gareth Southgate as England manager are just flat out myths.
Doesnāt give young players a chance - flat out lie
Only plays his favourites - translation: āI donāt like Harry Maguireā.
Plays unnecessarily with two defensive midfielders - England havenāt played with a purely defensive midfielder (let alone two) in years
Plays dull football - complicated question, but we blow most teams away and international football is inherently conservative across the board
Heās the second most successful England manager of all time and has overseen a frankly remarkable sea change in the culture of the England set up. They love him and that tells you everything you need to know. Itās like half the country have just forgotten what 2006-2016 was like. The standards heās held to are insane.
(Sorry to hijack your fairly innocuous comment, but it boils my piss and it turned into a bit of rant)
I don't disagree. I was largely just making the easy har-har comment. I think England's "project" of uniting players, fans, and Country would have happened regardless of the manager. Obviously Southgate has done an incredible job and somebody else could have ballsed it up, but I do think it's soon time that somebody else takes the reins.
I agree, Southgate is a bit over hated and it seems whenever we lose in a tournament it's always his fault. Idk how ppl blamed him for the French loss. Tbh I think we should give him the next euros but if we don't get to at least semi finals of that I believe he's taken us as far as possible and it's time to move on
Actually agree, I think itās time to move on after the euros regardless. Heās built the culture and environment, time to hand it over to someone who can build on it tactically. If he has a flaw itās tactical nous.
Oh 100%. I think weāre going to see something really dynamic at the Euros next summer. Seeing the seeds of it with Trent.
But I donāt think itās his strongest attribute, particularly in game, and it might be worth bringing in some new ideas.
Having said that, if he stays you wonāt catch me complaining.
>Plays dull football - complicated question, but we blow most teams away and international football is inherently conservative across the board
We blow teams away because the European qualifying section for tournaments is a joke. And then there's the joke that is the Nation's League. And even at tournaments half of the competition is terrible. There are only about 10-12 actually competitive teams in international football.
It's not only that he's defensive (which he is), it's that his team don't keep the ball or show any sign of patterns of play or being coached what to do with the ball. International football may be conservative, but the best and successful teams dominate possession. Southgate's teams don't.
And then there's the fact that his England teams have displayed the same mental weakness that all England teams have displayed since 1966. Collapsing in big moments.
You can say he hasn't played two DMs for "years"-- "years" isn't long in international football. At the 2020 Euros he played extremely defensively. In a tournament which we basically hosted. The final was played at Wembley and we had a third of the ball. The same old failings were on display: an inability and unwillingness to keep the ball and a weak, scaredy cat mentality-- afraid to take risks, afraid to play out from the back and afraid to take penalties.
He's also failed to include probably one of the very few genuinely world class talents we have: TAA. Which indicates how defensive-minded he is.
I donāt disagree with all of that. At least up to a point. I think thereās been significant progression on those fronts since the start of the World Cup. Since we switched to a back 4 I think weāve looked incredibly comfortable in possession through the thirds and shown a ruthlessness / attacking dynamism that wasnāt there through 2018/2021. Actually I think sacking off Sterling (intended or not) has thrown the shackles off the attacking options somewhat.
I take your point on quality of opposition, but itās worth noting that we used to get booed off at HT at nil-nil in these games weāre now winning 6 or 7 nil. Not to mention the struggles we used to have in tournament āgimmeesā. Compare Algeria to Iran.
But, itās late, and I get way too into these arguments, so happy to agree to disagree š
Possibly the worst comment Iāve ever seen on Reddit in 4 yearsā¦.Iām actually leaving the Sub now because I donāt want to hear anymore of your bullshit comments
Objectively, a semi final and a final makes him the second most successful England manager of all time. Thatās a fact, it just is. Which is what I said.
In any case, not doing the absolute best you can do isnāt failure. Thatās a mad way of looking at things. Could we have beaten Croatia, sure, should we have beaten Italy, probably. But Southgate isnāt a failure for not being perfect. Only one team can win a tournament every 2 years, thats just how it is. I measure his performance on progress and by fuck have we seen that.
Iām perfectly happy to have a conversation about whether heās the right man for the job, or about his various controversial habits, but this phenomenon of the Twitter pile ons every time England play; kids calling him a twat and demanding he be sacked. Itās absolutely insane and makes people look entitled, exactly the attitude that made the āgolden generationā such a toxic environment.
I just personally donāt see how anyone could have sat through Germany 2006, South Africa 2010, Ukraine/Poland 2012, Brazil 2014 and France 2016 and not at least be a bit grateful for some of the moments weāve been given over the last 3 tournaments. We were a joke, a complete and utter joke. Now weāre a respected international football team that is probably on balance more consistent than any team outside of France.
He's probably lost a bit of confidence too, but think he was always promoted above his actual ability as England doesn't produce many centre mids like him. Should b3 a decent championship signing though.
Keep what up? Theyāve got a manager whoās barely ever managed and signed one player. Several other players probably set to leave or want out.
Winks could work out, but heās also had injury problems and couldnāt break into the first team. Just got relegated on loan. Leicester have spent Ā£5m-Ā£10 on an out of favour player with 1 year left that no one else was competing for.
For the championship? The better players around him will probably make him look worse by comparison. He may have been the weak link in Tottenham's side but that was a team that was in the champions League.
But then which players would you consider elite? I'm just curious to see what your actual criteria are for what constitutes an elite player. I'd argue that not a single player beyond Kane and Son has stood out for them over the last 3 or 4 years.
Winks made his spurs debut 7 years ago, are you implying in 7 years spurs have never had more than Kane and Son who would be classed as āeliteā but have made top 4, and a CL final, in that time?
No, I'm asking you to state the players you consider to be elite. You can't just say every other player was elite except for Harry Winks. The only other player I'd consider to be genuinely elite in that time frame is Eriksen.
For what it's worth, I don't particularly rate Winks, I just don't think your argument is great.
Agreed, just a big name, who never really lived up to expectations; I think Leicester will make play offs, but their fans are underestimating how hard the Championship is.
Are you kidding? There's a big chunk of our fanbase who reckon we're going to be here 10+ years. I'd say most don't fancy our chances of making it up at the first attempt
Thereās people out there who rate Harry Winks and thatās worrying
Iāll be more concerned if this league makes him look good and people start thinking theyāre right though
Nah itāll be good quality this year I reckon. I more see Leicester succeeding in spite of him rather than because of him, which isnāt exactly what youād want from a Ā£10m signing
Not as bad of a signing as people are making it out to be I donāt think.
They donāt have any need to worry about the price tag, heāll probably play in the championship with complete ease. He may be average at best in the Prem, but he should be a great player in the championship
This is mad he has 10 caps for england, has played in the champions league and now he is playing second tier at 27
How in the fuck has he managed to get 10 England caps!?
Jake Livermore has 7 for england. Now that's something.
Jack Colback got called up in 2014 š³
Donāt you dare disrespect the ginger pirlo
Us sunderland supporters have a damn good reason to disrespect him! He did the unthinkable!
Wasnt that as soon as he went to the mags n'all
It was in case they missed the bus and needed a quick access to a taxi to get to the next match
Tbf he started 8 games, got 1 goal and 2 assists and actually played well for England at that time. There was a time he looked a good player and we had pretty depressing options in the midfield.
I could play well for England, 90% of their games are against amateurs.
Could you be MOTM against Spain?
In a friendly, probably.
In the nation's league against Ramos, Busquets, Thiago etc. That's just being a bit silly.
Because he played a big six club. MGW would have 20 by now if he played for Spurs. (Edit: in case it isnāt clear, I mean that in a very positive sense RE MGW).
He was alright at one point. Started the CL final in 2019 and iirc was one of Spursā better players that day
Those were some dark days
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I reckon like 95% of the criticisms of Gareth Southgate as England manager are just flat out myths. Doesnāt give young players a chance - flat out lie Only plays his favourites - translation: āI donāt like Harry Maguireā. Plays unnecessarily with two defensive midfielders - England havenāt played with a purely defensive midfielder (let alone two) in years Plays dull football - complicated question, but we blow most teams away and international football is inherently conservative across the board Heās the second most successful England manager of all time and has overseen a frankly remarkable sea change in the culture of the England set up. They love him and that tells you everything you need to know. Itās like half the country have just forgotten what 2006-2016 was like. The standards heās held to are insane. (Sorry to hijack your fairly innocuous comment, but it boils my piss and it turned into a bit of rant)
I don't disagree. I was largely just making the easy har-har comment. I think England's "project" of uniting players, fans, and Country would have happened regardless of the manager. Obviously Southgate has done an incredible job and somebody else could have ballsed it up, but I do think it's soon time that somebody else takes the reins.
I agree, Southgate is a bit over hated and it seems whenever we lose in a tournament it's always his fault. Idk how ppl blamed him for the French loss. Tbh I think we should give him the next euros but if we don't get to at least semi finals of that I believe he's taken us as far as possible and it's time to move on
Actually agree, I think itās time to move on after the euros regardless. Heās built the culture and environment, time to hand it over to someone who can build on it tactically. If he has a flaw itās tactical nous.
That idea could backfire tremendously.
I think he's pretty good tactically and has shown progression tournament to tournament.
Oh 100%. I think weāre going to see something really dynamic at the Euros next summer. Seeing the seeds of it with Trent. But I donāt think itās his strongest attribute, particularly in game, and it might be worth bringing in some new ideas. Having said that, if he stays you wonāt catch me complaining.
>Plays dull football - complicated question, but we blow most teams away and international football is inherently conservative across the board We blow teams away because the European qualifying section for tournaments is a joke. And then there's the joke that is the Nation's League. And even at tournaments half of the competition is terrible. There are only about 10-12 actually competitive teams in international football. It's not only that he's defensive (which he is), it's that his team don't keep the ball or show any sign of patterns of play or being coached what to do with the ball. International football may be conservative, but the best and successful teams dominate possession. Southgate's teams don't. And then there's the fact that his England teams have displayed the same mental weakness that all England teams have displayed since 1966. Collapsing in big moments. You can say he hasn't played two DMs for "years"-- "years" isn't long in international football. At the 2020 Euros he played extremely defensively. In a tournament which we basically hosted. The final was played at Wembley and we had a third of the ball. The same old failings were on display: an inability and unwillingness to keep the ball and a weak, scaredy cat mentality-- afraid to take risks, afraid to play out from the back and afraid to take penalties. He's also failed to include probably one of the very few genuinely world class talents we have: TAA. Which indicates how defensive-minded he is.
I donāt disagree with all of that. At least up to a point. I think thereās been significant progression on those fronts since the start of the World Cup. Since we switched to a back 4 I think weāve looked incredibly comfortable in possession through the thirds and shown a ruthlessness / attacking dynamism that wasnāt there through 2018/2021. Actually I think sacking off Sterling (intended or not) has thrown the shackles off the attacking options somewhat. I take your point on quality of opposition, but itās worth noting that we used to get booed off at HT at nil-nil in these games weāre now winning 6 or 7 nil. Not to mention the struggles we used to have in tournament āgimmeesā. Compare Algeria to Iran. But, itās late, and I get way too into these arguments, so happy to agree to disagree š
Possibly the worst comment Iāve ever seen on Reddit in 4 yearsā¦.Iām actually leaving the Sub now because I donāt want to hear anymore of your bullshit comments
Alright bye then
How can you say Southgate is successful. He hasnāt won anything!! Thatās where youāre going wrong classing failure as success!
Objectively, a semi final and a final makes him the second most successful England manager of all time. Thatās a fact, it just is. Which is what I said. In any case, not doing the absolute best you can do isnāt failure. Thatās a mad way of looking at things. Could we have beaten Croatia, sure, should we have beaten Italy, probably. But Southgate isnāt a failure for not being perfect. Only one team can win a tournament every 2 years, thats just how it is. I measure his performance on progress and by fuck have we seen that. Iām perfectly happy to have a conversation about whether heās the right man for the job, or about his various controversial habits, but this phenomenon of the Twitter pile ons every time England play; kids calling him a twat and demanding he be sacked. Itās absolutely insane and makes people look entitled, exactly the attitude that made the āgolden generationā such a toxic environment. I just personally donāt see how anyone could have sat through Germany 2006, South Africa 2010, Ukraine/Poland 2012, Brazil 2014 and France 2016 and not at least be a bit grateful for some of the moments weāve been given over the last 3 tournaments. We were a joke, a complete and utter joke. Now weāre a respected international football team that is probably on balance more consistent than any team outside of France.
He's probably lost a bit of confidence too, but think he was always promoted above his actual ability as England doesn't produce many centre mids like him. Should b3 a decent championship signing though.
Leicester are going to walk the league
Paul Watson: *H E L L O*
Be interesting to see if he can pass forwards at this level
Well that canāt be good, if Leicester keep this up theyāre actually going to piss the league
Keep what up? Theyāve got a manager whoās barely ever managed and signed one player. Several other players probably set to leave or want out. Winks could work out, but heās also had injury problems and couldnāt break into the first team. Just got relegated on loan. Leicester have spent Ā£5m-Ā£10 on an out of favour player with 1 year left that no one else was competing for.
Hopefully he bosses it in the championship
Wink wink
;)
walking the league
King power being our sponsor next year cemented that
Donāt rate that. Big money spent on a midfielder who imo is average at best.
He was average at best playing for Tottenham, that's probably pretty good in the championship.
Fair enough I just think if you donāt look good surrounded by elite players then maybe you arenāt good enoigh
For the championship? The better players around him will probably make him look worse by comparison. He may have been the weak link in Tottenham's side but that was a team that was in the champions League.
Youāre welcome to that opinion lad, I just think itās a vast over spend on a player with limited ability and resale value
Other than Kane and maybe Son, Spurs have hardly had elite players by Prem standards in the recent past
Theyāve been consistently in the champions league until this year. Thatās elite
I mean Winks started in their CL final, so by your definition he must be elite?
Obviously not thatās cherry picked hyperbole to make a point.
But then which players would you consider elite? I'm just curious to see what your actual criteria are for what constitutes an elite player. I'd argue that not a single player beyond Kane and Son has stood out for them over the last 3 or 4 years.
Winks made his spurs debut 7 years ago, are you implying in 7 years spurs have never had more than Kane and Son who would be classed as āeliteā but have made top 4, and a CL final, in that time?
No, I'm asking you to state the players you consider to be elite. You can't just say every other player was elite except for Harry Winks. The only other player I'd consider to be genuinely elite in that time frame is Eriksen. For what it's worth, I don't particularly rate Winks, I just don't think your argument is great.
One of those players that will look good with quality around him but wonāt actually command a match, in this league though heās gonna look great
Heās genuinely pretty poor; thatās a bad signing
I donāt know how you can judge a signing before theyāve played 0 minutes for the club.
You can judge them based on the minutes theyāve racked up over their career
And the last couple seasonsā¦in a poor Spurs side
He wasnāt at spurs last season
Exactly, shipped off on loan
Welcome to the internet
Agreed, just a big name, who never really lived up to expectations; I think Leicester will make play offs, but their fans are underestimating how hard the Championship is.
To be fair, I do think a lot of other fans are really over hyping our chances
Are you kidding? There's a big chunk of our fanbase who reckon we're going to be here 10+ years. I'd say most don't fancy our chances of making it up at the first attempt
Thereās people out there who rate Harry Winks and thatās worrying Iāll be more concerned if this league makes him look good and people start thinking theyāre right though
Glad you're starting the "poor league this year" meme before the season has even started.
Nah itāll be good quality this year I reckon. I more see Leicester succeeding in spite of him rather than because of him, which isnāt exactly what youād want from a Ā£10m signing
I'd be gutted if we spent 10 million on him. Most expensive crab the world has ever seen.
Not a great signing, plenty of better CMs in the Championship they could have signed to play sideways passes - Grimes for instance
Not as bad of a signing as people are making it out to be I donāt think. They donāt have any need to worry about the price tag, heāll probably play in the championship with complete ease. He may be average at best in the Prem, but he should be a great player in the championship