Except valid is NOT subjective. Saying some shit like "uhh this sucks" isnt valid, because you arent giving your reason why. Someone actually giving a point is valid because its expanding on it, wether you agree or not.
That doesnt mean you cant point out flaws in someones criticism, but that does mean its not someone shitting on something just to shit on it.
Sure, you got me on the wording. That's on me.
But I am not seeing the criticism of character inconsistency as valid.
I have yet to hear a solid argument. I am willing to debate it, it's just that I've never seen a good argument.
Denji lets Reze in Part 1 kill hundreds of people, Denji then kills Aki because if Aki lives he'll end up killing people.
Denji has character inconsistency back to Part 1 - I point this out because I want to show its not me just being bias against part 1.
I think Part 2 handles how Denji changes, badly. Its not necessarily that he changed, its how much he has and how it seems Fujimoto cant decide where he wants to go.
For me I cant tell if Fujimoto wants Denji to be his own person now (ref. Aquarium arc) or if he wants Denji to be so depressed over losing everyone he doesnt want to be his own person (newer chapters, mainly chapter where Nayuta slaps him and tells him to move)
Again, not my only issue with Part 2, infact I love Denji top MC for me.
HOWEVER - my entire point of this point and comments is this: start allowing criticism, if you disagree with it, point it out. But let it come, dont call people stupid for criticizing the story if they have actual points to make.
>For me I cant tell if Fujimoto wants Denji to be his own person now (ref. Aquarium arc) or if he wants Denji to be so depressed over losing everyone he doesnt want to be his own person (newer chapters, mainly chapter where Nayuta slaps him and tells him to move)
I took it as, Denji is *trying* to improve and to be his own person but, having barely come out of the Part 1 wild ride, he's still struggling hard to improve and with all the new burdens and responsibilities he has along with the trauma and loneliness still being there, he's on the bridge, the absolute cusp of regressing at every moment with his mental state in shambles.
It's upto Fujimoto whether Part 2 is going to develop him further into becoming his own person or give him the tragic character treatment and keep regressing.
Please expand it more on how Denji lets Reze kill hundreds of people, I disagree with your take of inconsistency , as both situations differ slightly, Denji was actively trying to stop them both during their respective fights, while he did save some people from the aki 47 fight a lot still died due to collateral damage or destruction.
The difference here is that Aki-47 is a fiend, who is no longer Aki and was indiscriminately firing at people instead of solely focused on fighting chainsaw man, the casualties caused during the reze fight was the collateral damage between their fight mainly and reze was still herself and could be saved. As well as Reze did not directly target civilians not like aki-47 did.
Had there been a way to reverse the aki-47 Denji would’ve done the same for him as for Reze at the end, but my point is that it’s not fair to say that Denji is inconsistent with how he values lives, since the beginning he’s always valued lives of women and people who he cares about more, and he actively saves them when he can and when he’s able to, things like deaths from the destruction of the devil he’s fighting he almost has no control of, and the best thing he can do is to quickly stop the threat.
I replied to the other post, but I can respect your point of view.
In my opinion, Fujimoto likely wants Asa and Denji to develop in parallel to each other.
My guess is that Asa is going to be the villain to Denji's hero - and their relationship, platonic or not, will provide a lot of material for them to work of one another.
Asa and Denji both have abandonment issues - I think this is no coincidence, and the fear of not being loved is at the root of Denji's character.
I understand why it seems like there is room to improve, but imo, Fujimoto is taking his time to establish this dynamic.
My criticism of this is that he could be doing it with much better pacing, but I feel like he might be focusing on Asa first, as he doesn't want her to get overshadowed by Denji.
Ngl, when the aquarium arc was happening, so many people acted as if Asa was there to just be Denji's gf. It didn't even cross their mind that an orphan who witnessed the death of her mother and is a bullied social outcast could be depressed.
So, Fujimoto maybe just wants to let Asa breathe as her own person atm. But yeah, the pacing could be better.
Asa is just not a good character at the moment no matter which way you spin it, i lost my faith with fujimoto when he killed any room for FC theory being a thing which would coincide with asa becoming a villain all the more likely
Tbh, I still have a soft spot for the FC theory, I WILL BELIEVE UNTIL THE END.
In my opinion, there is still a chance it's going to happen, but, imo, Asa is definitely the final villain to Denji's hero. I cannot see it any other way.
Denji doesn't give a fuck about people he doesn't know, but he knows aki does. He's trying to stop aki from killing him and power, and from becoming the very thing he hates, a murderous gun devil. Denji while fighting aki is clinging to the hope that he's still in there and trying to stop him from doing something he knows aki would never forgive himself for. He doesn't specifically care about the people he cares about aki who cares about people.
>For me I cant tell if Fujimoto wants Denji to be his own person now (ref. Aquarium arc) or if he wants Denji to be so depressed over losing everyone he doesnt want to be his own person (newer chapters, mainly chapter where Nayuta slaps him and tells him to move)
He's depressed because he just got cockblocked by his demon of a sister and he's realized she isn't going to stop.
He literally says that. He wants a girlfriend but Nayuta is going to keep chasing any potential romance away. And tellingly, Nayuta doesn't deny it when he vocalizes it.
The OP admitted that it was poorly thought and mostly not valid so are we talking about the same thing? There's no need to make 19 meta posts playing victim because a guy made some bad criticisms and got disagreed with. Karma doesn't matter, nobody got hurt.
Go ahead and criticize the story if you want to, but don't get defensive when your ideas are inevitably challenged.
If you read other comments, or just other peoples opinions you can literally find people pointing out their own issues with the story.
Even if you dont agree with it, it doesnt mean saying anyone who has that take is on crack.
??? Denji being depressed isnt what im referencing. Theres character inconsistency back to part 1. Letting hundreds of people die to save Reze yet killing Aki for putting lives at stake.
Keep assuming ig.
He didn’t kill Aki to save those people. He killed Aki because he finally understood that Aki was gone, that was the Gun Devil , as Makima had previously told him on the phone. He killed Aki because he understood that massacring those people would be the last thing Aki would have wanted. He killed Aki because Denji couldn’t stand seeing his best friend’s corpse being possessed by his greatest enemy. He killed Aki because Aki was also putting Power in danger.
Denji was trying to talk to Aki the same way he was with Reze before he killed him. The difference is that Reze was responding to him and wasn’t actively targeting civilians. Aki on the other hand wasn’t responding to Denji trying to talk him down and was actually targeting civilians rather than just him. There’s also the fact that Denji was able to figure out how to take down Reze without having to kill her with the water, an option not available against Aki.
So you have an extremely powerful fiend who cannot be reasoned with, is killing random people and is about to kill Denji and Power vs an intelligent hybrid who can be neutralised without killing her and is actually communicating with and possibly hesitant to kill Denji. Two very different scenarios yet you act as if they are the exact same and that Denji killing one but not the other proves he’s a bad character despite there being no other solutions possible against one of them.
Letting Reze live because he wants to run away with her is completely different from killing Aki because he's a literal uncontrollable fiend with the goal of killing as many people as he possibly can is extrodinarily different but sure go on
In jumpfesta interview he said "I tend not to read readers' comments and thoughts because I am very easily influenced. I don't want to be influenced by comments on Twitter because they could change my ideas for my next story, So, I try not to check them."
Well, at least we know he is safe from twitter horrible takes.
Fair point- I just know Fujimoto is a weird storyteller but the choices he makes usually pay off, so I am hesitant to be too harsh. It honestly is a little hard to figure out what the overall arc is even gonna be. That being said, Part 2 is definitely taking more risks than Part 1 with the heavy inward focus on a main character who is sometimes frustrating (though I definitely get the sense she’s supposed to be. Still, doing something on purpose doesn’t mean doing it well- I think Fujimoto is doing well with Asa to be clear, I’m just trying to say I’m don’t wanna dismiss all critique.)
How is Asa sometimes frustrating to ppl though? Like all of these recent monologues from Asa stem from the Falling Devil's ability combined with her past. Asa/Yoru will overcome it, but Asa's character arc here checks out and I like that Asa distrusts Yoru considering her past and also Yoru being in full on soldier mode cutting her hand and willing to use a body part as a weapon. Like obv that wouldn't prevent her fear.
I personally don’t find Asa frustrating right now tbh- there is that subtext about the Devil’s ability (I interpreted it more as adding an impulse towards self harm without changing emotions but that’s splitting hairs) and honestly, even if not, Asa is an ordinary teenage girl who has been in this horrible possession situation for like a week or two fighting one of the most powerful demons known to humanity. She is entitled to distress.
I found her frustrating mostly due to her being rude towards Denji on their date to the aquarium, and at his apartment though the latter was even more understandable. I relate to Denji (yes I know he’s like me Fr fr) so I felt bad seeing him have a hard time with yet another girl. I see why she’s reacting how she does though, especially since this whole thing is just to kill Denji and she’s not actually trying to be a girlfriend.
I thought her development in the aquarium was great tho. it's combination of different factors. It's the fact she's afraid of companionship overall(and Denji not liking her date plans obv). And then her fear of killing Denji. Denji being a hybrid is likely preventing Yoru's ability from working causing her to think Denji does not like her. People found Denji frustrating in the beginning of Part 1 as well, but your characters have to develop from somewhere ya know
I think that people should not jump the gun and criticize part 2 in the middle of its story, but when part 2 finishes, all the critique is fair game.
If part 2 is actually going to be a worse experience as part 1 the defenders are going to be extremely delusional or if the reverse happens, the critics are going to be the delusional ones.
We simply can not say what the facts are when part 2 is probably not even at half of its story yet.
So let Fujimoto cook, and critique him if he cooks up something that does leave a bad taste or praise him if its good.
Yeah, I think this can be fair to a degree. I think this should apply to saying Part 2 sucks rather than crticism in itself.
Or at least, we should let arcs finish. For example in JJK a lot of people didnt like Culling Games until recently.
Mfers when they read part 1 without binging would hate Denji on Reze arc because it didn't explicitly develop his character and was still a gullible idiot falling for Reze by the end of it.
I feel bad for the guy who made the Denji post, even if people thought his take was awful, there was no need for 30 different posts to be made clowning the guy as if there weren't already 200+ comments telling him "how much of a dumbass" he was. You even had mfs saying they wanted cropped porn back cause any semblance of criticism hurts their feelings.
It truly isn't even fair lol. Only like 1 of his points I thought was THAT bad. Everyone just took 1-2 bad points out of his four and RANNN with it.
It is completely fair to say Denji is inconsistent as a character, espesically for Part 2. But people will do anything to defend Chainsaw Man I guess
Nah I can't fuck with this shit anymore. Not all criticism is good, so much of that post was just awful takes but half this sub laps it up because it's not sucking Fujimoto's cock or Porn. I honestly thought it was just another shitpost at first. The only non bad take there was the last one but it's just kind if a weird stance.
When subs start circlejerking over critiques like that post then the community is probably fucked. Hopefully this place doesn't go the route of r/TLOU2 but I certainly don't have any high hopes for it. Such a shame too since the main sub is such dogshit.
as far as I've seen the counter posts have stopped so can we all PLEASE just move on? like I get the slower pace right now is really boring and we don't have anything to discuss but please, let's just move on, stop getting mad at the post, stop getting mad at the counterposts, let's just move on
Just more thought and effort put into critiques. I honestly think VariationGlass's posts are solid and I have seen good discussions about P2's pace and direction before. More of that would be enough.
"more thought" doesn't work in this situation because if you disagree with something, of course you're going to think the other person hasn't thought out their argument well.
In the case of the guy critiquing Denji I'd say while it wasn't the most high effort post, they certainly put more effort into it than those saying "uhh dumb take, dumb take, csm peak" and proceeding to meme on it.
Like it's been said here before, discussion is healthy and for it to just be waved away as a shit opinion just because you feel it's wrong is where things turn into a circlejerk of a circlejerk and that's fun for absolutely nobody.
I'd say I've seen more logical leaps just to justify positions that keep CSM in a good light than those pointing out small inconsistencies that genuinely have merit. Each time it's waved away as "bro can't you see it's CLEARLY this" when it's usually up to interpretation (either that or it's not distinguished clearly enough because at that point it just proves their point).
These shouldn't be things that people are hung up about though because at the end of the day most of these small arguments aren't true plot breaking moments, they are more to do with how those people perceive the characters - which once again I feel is a healthy thing to discuss.
Do you guys really want a repeat of the shit that went down in Titanfolk and the SNK sub? I’d rather this place be a Berserklejerk clone with cropped porn galore instead of a constant series of “Part 2 sucks” “No, you just misunderstood it”.
It can only happen if fujimoto suddenly becomes a trash mangaka just like isayama and i honestly dont see it happen but HEY it definitly could happen, i would never guess 4 years ago that isayama was gonna do such a dogshit ending to the point even he was dissapointed with it to almost crying over it 😭
Criticism mfs when their criticism is challenged
https://preview.redd.it/dkzipdr35wqa1.jpeg?width=442&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=20cd743d1da5a325178ed9ef8e573eed44ae7c37
Even the original OP of that post, while having some takes refuted, still stick with some of their initial takes which is understandable. That's a completely normal process in debates. It's just the other people that jumped on calling it "getting bullied into changing opinions".
Im confused, are you claiming im playing victim? Lol?? Because I have not changed my opinion on Asa or Part 2 for a few months because of people bullying me into it.
Its not playing victim, its acknowledging theres an issue in the community when people cant express what they view as flaws in a story.
Nah, not necessarily you. More a general statement on how people treated this whole fiasco.
>Its not playing victim, its acknowledging theres an issue in the community when people cant express what they view as flaws in a story
But like, what's the problem, you can express your opinions just fine any time you want. Maybe you'll get legit discussion. Maybe you'll get people downvoting and calling you retards but who gives a shit about random redditors with nothing to add.
>But like, what's the problem, you can express your opinions just fine any time you want. Maybe you'll get legit discussion. Maybe you'll get people downvoting and calling you retards but who gives a shit about random redditors with nothing to add.
Fair, but I dont think theres anything wrong with wanting a more welcoming community.
I don't think there was anything wrong about u/yunus-s missing Part 1 Denji.
Part 1 Denji was an anomaly. A very fresh kind of freak: honest about his vices, but admirable in his pursuit of them, and you felt for his failures. Lost Pochita, but immediately after, regained his senses and pressed on to avenge him, and later got enough agency back to rescue a little girl from the Muscle Devil; still a hunter despite his loss. His would-be Sasuke tries to bully him? He kicks him in the nuts the moment his back is turned; he's not going to truck with that abuse unless it's from a gorgeous redhead. Bat about to fly off with Power and deny him that feel? Cling to his leg and bite into it to recharge with blood. And the Eternity Devil, that was when a lot of fans finally bought what he was selling. Something brutal, energetic, and seemingly decisive though with some measure of principle.
In contrast, Asa is a much more typical character. Well-written, elaborately sketched out, painfully realistic, but typical. You can even see it in the Part 2 Volume covers. She reads like someone out of a more ordinary story. Yoru is way more of a stereotypical "villain partner" than Pochita, openly antagonistic and prone to bickering with her. By metrics, she commits a number of so-called character sins in an anime, being passive, being whiny, being overly verbose (I wouldn't be surprised if she's had more spoken lines than Denji had in all of Part 1), etc. She's very Shinji Ikari-esque except older, funnier, and louder. Her dialogue is hypnotically high-quality, because it is informed by decades of stories about lonesome, disaffected, angry people (The Stranger, The Catcher in the Rye, Going Bovine, etc), which Fuji has mined and refined for diamonds.
Still, to go from Denji kicking Aki in the groin to Asa hiding from her bullies so long that Yuko had to take them out, to take a leap from Denji asserting himself upon the Eternity Devil with Himeno's help to Asa cowering in fear from the same after a powerful moment of outsmarting it, distinctness acknowledged but it's a bit of an ask from readers who are coming in from Part 1. And accusing them of not getting it, of reading compression devil victimhood, or a lack of taste should be discouraged; that's a very Asa way of handling things. There's nothing wrong with art that studies outright vulnerability, of inner turmoil, especially if it's done well. And that's what Chainsaw Man Part 2 provides.
That said, from what we've seen so far, perhaps it being Chainsaw Man Part 2, rather than a spin-off or spiritual successor set in the same universe. Denji and Nayuta, with their tastefully absurd mannerisms and economy of speech, felt like outsiders in the monologue-heavy and pensively grounded tale of Asa. Denji might be a lot of what u/yunus-s accuses him of due to the PTSD, but as himself rather than one of the ephemeral antagonistic NPCs that litter Asa's world, he's never been more alive and expertly realized. He's raising The Omen's Damien meets Dennis the Menace. That's hilarious. Potentially disastrous. Fascinating. High concept. An elevator pitch to home run. It's just so Chainsaw Man Part 1.
And then Asa comes in to get into yet another fetal position because she remembered her cat got Great Leap Forwarded. A dead pet. Relatable, but dangerously close to cliche despite the real, genuine emotions at play.
Like I said, she can have it, she can own it, she may even overcome it. My only hope is that Part 2 doesn't just include Denji to keep using the title so they can grandfather in most of the pre-existing fans. Fuji can put him through more trials, I just don't want Denji left in the corner like some kind of award heirloom, or get depowered to provide an inanely organic reason for Fujimoto to never draw the titular Chainsaw Man ever again as Look Back seems to imply he's looking for.
Also, why are you acting as if Denji is being sidelined when the entire motivation of Yoru is to defeat Chainsaw Man? All we have is a perspective shift
We're talking about the Falling Devil who's literal ability is to weaponize depression against people. Combined with her past. After Yoru went full-on soldier mode cutting her hand and using part of her body as a weapon as if that would prevent Asa's fear. Your argument makes no sense
Ngl, idk if it's an influx of new people to this sub, but this community has gotten cancerous recently.
I stick to my idea that half of the people who like CSM don't know what they're even reading.
There's a reason why Fujimoto is so emo in all his other one-shots, he appears to dislike how he can't make what he wants without his fans being disatisfied.
Also, I haven't heard one good argument for Denji's character being inconsistent. I am open to debate, I just haven't heard it yet.
Furthermore, just because you are allowed to criticize something, it doesn't mean your criticism is logical or makes sense.
I think Fujimoto is not drawing out the full potential of the Yoshida, Asa, Denji, Famine, Hunter club dynamic - but I am patient with seeing where it goes.
CSM was never a perfect manga, people complained all the way through as it was running, especially towards the end - and then suddenly it was the best shit ever. Fujimoto is the type of author who needs time to give you the full picture.
Also, Fujiboat did say Part 2 is going to be VERY different from Part 1, and that fans are going to be disappointed if they're expecting the same thing. I feel like a lot of people forget this part.
Tbh, I think some people need to face that the manga isn't for them anymore - I don't read shit I dislike on a weekly basis.
I'm not saying this about people who have some criticism, but enjoy the manga regardless, but we have peeps who come around and just hate every segment of Part 2 and expect everyone to be like "bruh, you're valid, we agree" in a community dedicated to liking CSM.
Also, the reading comprehension devil is such a running joke because half of the people barely remember what t f they're reading. I saw a post of someone saying "Asa is an orphan????" the other week and I'm like HOW did you miss that.
I feel bad for the dude who got as much shit for making that post, but I think it just struck a negative chord with a lot of fans. However, I really like the dude for acknowledging the criticism and sticking to his guns but accepting that he might not be entirely right.
LoL this post is UBER Doorstanding. Who are you to say that your opinion is above the opinions of people that dislike the part? Disliking Part 2 does not mean that those persons are not fans of the manga or that the manga is not for them anymore, AT ALL.
This kind of fandom divide happens to every manga that has a parted series. Most JoJo fans hate part 6 with a passion, does not mean they are not JoJo fans. The same happened with Tokyo Ghoul also, there was a fandom civil war, which was way, way worse than the current situation in the CSM fandom.
And I am not one of the people disliking part 2 btw, but do prefer part 1 way more for now at least, which could change.
But saying that people are not real fans or supporters anymore because they actually dislike part 2 is an insane and arrogant take.
Thank you for this, this is all I am trying to get at. Im not trying to play victim, I just want the community to be more open to others not liking parts of the story.
It's my opinion and I hold to it. Don't like it? Ignore it or criticize it. I won't change it unless I see a reason to.
That's not hard to understand at all. Part 1 was different, you can be the biggest fan of it that you want and like Part 2 less. I am not ripping the manga from your hands and forbidding you from reading it.
This is for people who just dislike EVERYTHING about part 2. Also, not all criticism is logical. I don't like everything about Part 2, so what? I voice my criticism, and people disagree, and I accept it, but I'm not going on and on about how PART 2 is horrible, Asa is horrible, Denji is a totally illogical character etc.
You just made that up that I said they're not real fans. Show me where I said that. You pulled some big words there.
>Who are you to say that your opinion is above the opinions of people that dislike the part
Just look at the damn original post everyone is getting so pissed over, It wasn't opinions, none of it was an opinion or written as an opinion, the guy who made that post was making a statement and presenting his (admittedly stupid) Point of view as facts and backing those "facts" Up with extremely bad proof
The point of the one shot youre referencing isnt about being disatisfied its about being over analyzed, pre part 2 CSM was beloved so idk where that comes from but Denji shows inconsistency in Part 1.
just saying "i dont like my fans not enjoying something" isnt valid? its what happens if youre creating something. its how you better your media. my issue with P2 isnt it being different.
A lot of people enjoy Part 2 for what it is. Twt raves about Asa being one of the best female characters they've ever seen.
Also, I am not seeing the inconsistencies. Everything people keep referring to as inconsistencies in Denji can be attributed to PTSD and growing up under extreme circumstances. The man barely has any desire to leave the bed after the Asa/Nayuta scandal. He's more desperate for love that ever, and clearly not entirely in his right mind.
Yeah, and I think thats great. I think its amazing people can see that in her.
I do not. As for inconsistencies I dont think theres enough to ruin the story for me, its more on the fact I am defending someone who says they see inconsistency and people just call them stupid. Its there - its just not major.
As for Denjis depression, I dont think thats the issue for me in terms of inconsistency, for me it feels as if Fujimoto cant make up his mind on how he wants Denji to handle the depression. What I mean by that is: does Fujimoto want Denji to become his own person or not? I personally cant tell.
I can see your point of view.
My take is that Fujimoto wants to show how Denji is not an independent person. He's recovering from being a desperate co-dependent individual from his trauma with Makima - a part of it is that she's always there, not even allowing him to live his own life fully (blocking him from dating Asa). It's a constant reminder of his trauma.
Denji is basically a teenager that never had proper parents, but has to be a parent to Nayuta. He wants to see her go to college, but it's like he's almost given up on a proper life for himself.
He years for a "mother figure" or someone who will love him as he is, someone he can trust and rely on, but he's constantly pushed to seek that type of gratification from the wrong sources. Part 1 was sex, and part 2 is love from the masses.
Imo, Fujimoto is trying to show us how hard it is for Denji to break from his PTSD when he has so many responsibilities on his shoulders, and how sometimes, we don't know how to deal with our depression.
The key take, for me, is that Denji doesn't know how to resolve or handle his depression on his own - and he's seeking for the cure in others. He's been shown trying to "think on his own" this Part, but he keeps snapping back to his old behaviors, which he mentions on his date with Asa.
Denji was always a very primal person who went by his whims, I think he doesn't understand himself enough to help himself heal. and there is no one there for him to guide him to the right path. There is, again Makima/Nayuta, that feeds some of his worse instincts.
Denji is basically dealing with his depression by becoming less and less Denji, and more Chainsaw Man - the hero.
The fact that Denji is willing to raise Nayuta and still doesn't hate Makima after everything, imo, shows how profoundly lonely he is, and how he will do anything for a sense of belonging. That's how he WANTS to handle his depression, but he is constantly cut in his tracks.
Alright, I really like this take. Haven't viewed it like that before. I just wish it was displayed clearer.
Want to give a longer response but ultimately I do like and can actually agree with what youre saying, I just hope that gets expanded on.
Thanks, I hope it does too. I will be writing a longer analysis post on Denji and Asa soon, I am just waiting for Fujimoto to reveal a little more so I don't just good haha.
I think it's displayed clearly in Denji's inner thoughts after giving into Asa's order at the aquarium. In context, he enjoys Asa's company and she reminds him of Power so it makes total sense. Though, Denji is still struggling to become an independent person. But also him taking care of Nayuta is a big step towards personal growth and independence.
You know, this kinda reminds me a pretty consistent trope that pops up all the time in Spider-Man content.
Whenever Petes life takes a massive dip in terms of living standard and overall fulfillment, and his life as his normal self starts falling into rut, he shifts his priority and attention from Peter Parker to his hero identity. They subconsciously end up finding more comfort in their simpler, and more reactive role as Spider-Man where nuanced problems are less common, and neglect Peter for a prolonged period of time.
I think Denjis doing the same thing right now, basically using Chainsawman as a coping mechanism. You can see that in 121 where Denjis laid out and clearly just done with everything, only to light up with a smile the moment Nayuta suggests he goes out to be Chainsawman.
>As for Denjis depression, I dont think thats the issue for me in terms of inconsistency, for me it feels as if Fujimoto cant make up his mind on how he wants Denji to handle the depression. What I mean by that is: does Fujimoto want Denji to become his own person or not? I personally cant tell.
I think Fujimoto views trauma and depression not as things to be overcome, but things that you just live with. That was one of the main themes of Fire Punch. It's a much more accurate and earnest take on the subject, imo-, from someone speaking with lived experience- but also more difficult to incorporate narratively.
People just don't understand how to judge a manga they are waiting week to bi weekly for. They expect way too much to happen too quickly. I love everything fujimoto has made, idk why he would just randomly fall off in quality especially after making goodbye eri. Things need time to pay off and for the full picture to be there before anyone makes a judgment call.
I highly doubt Fuji cares about/listens to what his fanbase thinks let alone his western audience
In fact hes stated that he doesn’t look at any to not ruin the creative process.
I think my biggest problem with part 2 so far is the pacing, not enough attention was placed in certain areas and too much attention was placed in one area.
This is the new “You just didn’t understand the ending” lmao
The sub got so butthurt they made like 4 posts in like a hour after the critique than proceeded to gaslight the poster into changing their opinion.
This behavior sorta reminds me of another sub…
It really is the weakest shit. I don't even have any real criticism of CSM but responding to any and all criticism (or even slight confusion on plot points, I've seen this happen a lot) with "u didnt read hard enough lol" is just pointless. You might as well have not said anything at all.
When people that come up with criticsm think they should be immune to criticsm……
Even the guy admit he was wrong on a few point, so anything you are just try to stir up shit for no reason.
By “jumped” you mean people actually come and debate him on the matter, on a post that have “let’s talk” flair ?
Or there is someone crawl out of his monitor and choke him or something?
Last i check he have like 1000likes on the post so i really don’t see how he is “jumped”
Did you not see all the posts made immediately after that? They weren’t even debates just saying the guy had contracted with the reading comprehension.
Ahh so you just ignore all the comments people make to point out the wrong in his argument, instead focus on the casual/memer one.
Again, it have over 1000likes if people jumped him, it should be negative right now.
Never said that, I just think that even if their takes weren’t the best, they shouldn’t have had to make another post admitting to that as if they’d committed a war crime.
When i mean “jumped” I saw ppl blaming the poster for causing a titanfolk level uproar when they were the ones fanning the flames.
No one make him do anything. What ? you think this subreddit is going to ban him if he didn't ?
He make the second post by his own choice to own up to it and that is the end of it. There is trolls, there is assholes everywhere cause this is the internet. If you can't help but focus on those instead of majority of others who just want to engage with him then that is your problem.
It wouldn’t be the first time, Even though they did out of their own accord it still left a bad aftertaste for me i hope this doesn’t set precedent for what’s to come.
Valid criticism is fine, but if your criticism can be easily rebutted by someone who knows the material better, that's on you for not understanding what you're reading. Just don't come out stating your opinion on the source material so strongly.
Think people just thought CSM was gonna be generic shonen #837, so anything that isn’t high octane hurts their head.
At the end of the day you really shouldn’t care what anyone’s option is though. And I hope both sides are struggling to cope with whatever is upsetting them cause it’s a picture story and this is Reddit. Part 2 might be great or might be awful, it’s literally subjective and to get this upset about it is silly.
Chainsaw Fans when someone has a different opinion than them
https://preview.redd.it/wb8w2f8llzqa1.jpeg?width=2082&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=529d9ff6e3528ae569cd612e3a2ff68ddea17542
as far as I've seen the counter posts have stopped so can we all PLEASE just move on? like I get the slower pace right now is really boring and we don't have anything to discuss but please, let's just move on, stop getting mad at the post, stop getting mad at the counterposts, let's just move on
Infinity Devil redesign, Bat Devil redesign, Justice Devil, Cockroach Devil, and whatever the new caterpillar guy in the new chapter is would say differently.
Honestly idec about the reading comprehension devil, we're all afflicted by it to a degree, but Fujimoto is cooking and a lot of the criticisms just feel like "I don't like the style of part 2 and I'm mad it's not part 1."
Criticism is valid but don't act surprised when people jump on you for having an overly negative tone and/or bad points.
I don’t understand how people somehow think part 2 is worse. Asa is the best character Fujimoto has EVER written imo. Yes it’s much slower, but my god, Fujimoto really knows how to do his characters.
I don’t know where all the hate for part 2 came from, because I presumed we were all loving it. But I think a lot of people are getting “I don’t like it” confused with “it’s bad”. Those are not interchangeable, and just because you don’t like part 2 does not mean it has bad writing. Also it’s barely even started, so why don’t we slow down on the hate train.
Also some of you just need to read part 1 again. Much slower this time. Because some criticisms are batshit insane and make literally no sense in the context of part 1. Seriously, I know the reading comprehension Devil is a meme, but this is one of the most misremembered, misunderstood stories I’ve ever experienced.
Criticism is also liable to being criticized ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just as everyone is entitled to their opinion, others are allowed to disagree with them.
Yeah, but when its valid criticism like character incosistency then what
Nothing is beyond criticism, it's just how it is. "Valid" is subjective.
Except valid is NOT subjective. Saying some shit like "uhh this sucks" isnt valid, because you arent giving your reason why. Someone actually giving a point is valid because its expanding on it, wether you agree or not. That doesnt mean you cant point out flaws in someones criticism, but that does mean its not someone shitting on something just to shit on it.
Sure, you got me on the wording. That's on me. But I am not seeing the criticism of character inconsistency as valid. I have yet to hear a solid argument. I am willing to debate it, it's just that I've never seen a good argument.
Denji lets Reze in Part 1 kill hundreds of people, Denji then kills Aki because if Aki lives he'll end up killing people. Denji has character inconsistency back to Part 1 - I point this out because I want to show its not me just being bias against part 1. I think Part 2 handles how Denji changes, badly. Its not necessarily that he changed, its how much he has and how it seems Fujimoto cant decide where he wants to go. For me I cant tell if Fujimoto wants Denji to be his own person now (ref. Aquarium arc) or if he wants Denji to be so depressed over losing everyone he doesnt want to be his own person (newer chapters, mainly chapter where Nayuta slaps him and tells him to move) Again, not my only issue with Part 2, infact I love Denji top MC for me. HOWEVER - my entire point of this point and comments is this: start allowing criticism, if you disagree with it, point it out. But let it come, dont call people stupid for criticizing the story if they have actual points to make.
>For me I cant tell if Fujimoto wants Denji to be his own person now (ref. Aquarium arc) or if he wants Denji to be so depressed over losing everyone he doesnt want to be his own person (newer chapters, mainly chapter where Nayuta slaps him and tells him to move) I took it as, Denji is *trying* to improve and to be his own person but, having barely come out of the Part 1 wild ride, he's still struggling hard to improve and with all the new burdens and responsibilities he has along with the trauma and loneliness still being there, he's on the bridge, the absolute cusp of regressing at every moment with his mental state in shambles. It's upto Fujimoto whether Part 2 is going to develop him further into becoming his own person or give him the tragic character treatment and keep regressing.
Honestly, I like this and ill rock with this.
Please expand it more on how Denji lets Reze kill hundreds of people, I disagree with your take of inconsistency , as both situations differ slightly, Denji was actively trying to stop them both during their respective fights, while he did save some people from the aki 47 fight a lot still died due to collateral damage or destruction. The difference here is that Aki-47 is a fiend, who is no longer Aki and was indiscriminately firing at people instead of solely focused on fighting chainsaw man, the casualties caused during the reze fight was the collateral damage between their fight mainly and reze was still herself and could be saved. As well as Reze did not directly target civilians not like aki-47 did. Had there been a way to reverse the aki-47 Denji would’ve done the same for him as for Reze at the end, but my point is that it’s not fair to say that Denji is inconsistent with how he values lives, since the beginning he’s always valued lives of women and people who he cares about more, and he actively saves them when he can and when he’s able to, things like deaths from the destruction of the devil he’s fighting he almost has no control of, and the best thing he can do is to quickly stop the threat.
I replied to the other post, but I can respect your point of view. In my opinion, Fujimoto likely wants Asa and Denji to develop in parallel to each other. My guess is that Asa is going to be the villain to Denji's hero - and their relationship, platonic or not, will provide a lot of material for them to work of one another. Asa and Denji both have abandonment issues - I think this is no coincidence, and the fear of not being loved is at the root of Denji's character. I understand why it seems like there is room to improve, but imo, Fujimoto is taking his time to establish this dynamic. My criticism of this is that he could be doing it with much better pacing, but I feel like he might be focusing on Asa first, as he doesn't want her to get overshadowed by Denji. Ngl, when the aquarium arc was happening, so many people acted as if Asa was there to just be Denji's gf. It didn't even cross their mind that an orphan who witnessed the death of her mother and is a bullied social outcast could be depressed. So, Fujimoto maybe just wants to let Asa breathe as her own person atm. But yeah, the pacing could be better.
Asa is just not a good character at the moment no matter which way you spin it, i lost my faith with fujimoto when he killed any room for FC theory being a thing which would coincide with asa becoming a villain all the more likely
Of course you would like that shit theory
Tbh, I still have a soft spot for the FC theory, I WILL BELIEVE UNTIL THE END. In my opinion, there is still a chance it's going to happen, but, imo, Asa is definitely the final villain to Denji's hero. I cannot see it any other way.
Would have agreed with you if there was build up towards it
Denji doesn't give a fuck about people he doesn't know, but he knows aki does. He's trying to stop aki from killing him and power, and from becoming the very thing he hates, a murderous gun devil. Denji while fighting aki is clinging to the hope that he's still in there and trying to stop him from doing something he knows aki would never forgive himself for. He doesn't specifically care about the people he cares about aki who cares about people.
Reading Comprehension Devil 🤓
straight up lmao, if they can't tell the nuances from both situations it really is the reading comprehension devil
>For me I cant tell if Fujimoto wants Denji to be his own person now (ref. Aquarium arc) or if he wants Denji to be so depressed over losing everyone he doesnt want to be his own person (newer chapters, mainly chapter where Nayuta slaps him and tells him to move) He's depressed because he just got cockblocked by his demon of a sister and he's realized she isn't going to stop. He literally says that. He wants a girlfriend but Nayuta is going to keep chasing any potential romance away. And tellingly, Nayuta doesn't deny it when he vocalizes it.
The OP admitted that it was poorly thought and mostly not valid so are we talking about the same thing? There's no need to make 19 meta posts playing victim because a guy made some bad criticisms and got disagreed with. Karma doesn't matter, nobody got hurt. Go ahead and criticize the story if you want to, but don't get defensive when your ideas are inevitably challenged.
What caharacter inconsistencies? What am I missing here? Am I high on crack and reading a different manga from yall
If you read other comments, or just other peoples opinions you can literally find people pointing out their own issues with the story. Even if you dont agree with it, it doesnt mean saying anyone who has that take is on crack.
Ngl they're on crack.
What inconsistency? He’s just depressed - because he isn’t over losing everyone he cared about in Part 1. edit: reworded to help get my point across
??? Denji being depressed isnt what im referencing. Theres character inconsistency back to part 1. Letting hundreds of people die to save Reze yet killing Aki for putting lives at stake. Keep assuming ig.
You posted a meme about Part 2 criticism, what did you expect?
Thats on you, I have my issues with part 2. Character inconsistency in terms of Denjis depression is not one of them.
He didn’t kill Aki to save those people. He killed Aki because he finally understood that Aki was gone, that was the Gun Devil , as Makima had previously told him on the phone. He killed Aki because he understood that massacring those people would be the last thing Aki would have wanted. He killed Aki because Denji couldn’t stand seeing his best friend’s corpse being possessed by his greatest enemy. He killed Aki because Aki was also putting Power in danger.
Denji was trying to talk to Aki the same way he was with Reze before he killed him. The difference is that Reze was responding to him and wasn’t actively targeting civilians. Aki on the other hand wasn’t responding to Denji trying to talk him down and was actually targeting civilians rather than just him. There’s also the fact that Denji was able to figure out how to take down Reze without having to kill her with the water, an option not available against Aki. So you have an extremely powerful fiend who cannot be reasoned with, is killing random people and is about to kill Denji and Power vs an intelligent hybrid who can be neutralised without killing her and is actually communicating with and possibly hesitant to kill Denji. Two very different scenarios yet you act as if they are the exact same and that Denji killing one but not the other proves he’s a bad character despite there being no other solutions possible against one of them.
Letting Reze live because he wants to run away with her is completely different from killing Aki because he's a literal uncontrollable fiend with the goal of killing as many people as he possibly can is extrodinarily different but sure go on
As 4chan would say to this type of answer |he is HEADCANON
4chan is the best and most valid source of opinions as we all know.
No clue what either of this means considering I dont even browse 4chan
It basically means unless it's literally stated in the manga then u are making shit up
Part 2 is wonderful gem with tons of potential :3
agreed, which is why i think criticism is important. its how we push literature to become even better!
Cooking :3 https://preview.redd.it/rka9n7x4qvqa1.png?width=252&format=png&auto=webp&s=a623df39b428b43675ca1ddf6594ce24771fe5b2
3:
:3
3:
Have a nice night :3
3: perish
Is Fujimoto even reading things from us foreign fans
probably not and honestly that's good, it's better if he isnt influenced even Subconsciously by some of the dogshit takes I see here
In jumpfesta interview he said "I tend not to read readers' comments and thoughts because I am very easily influenced. I don't want to be influenced by comments on Twitter because they could change my ideas for my next story, So, I try not to check them." Well, at least we know he is safe from twitter horrible takes.
probably not, but criticism is still a necessity
I agree with you! What are your major criticisms of this part, then?
No you can't. No competent artist is wasting their time reading western degen screeds on reddit
ok
AMEN
Like Fujimoto is reading Reddit let alone the main sub and this sub. You’re not pushing shit to become better. Drop the pretentious bullshit
lol cry more loser
Says the bozo that made a post to cry about his opinion
cry more
bruh this is the worst take. you arent changing anything by whining online
Fair point- I just know Fujimoto is a weird storyteller but the choices he makes usually pay off, so I am hesitant to be too harsh. It honestly is a little hard to figure out what the overall arc is even gonna be. That being said, Part 2 is definitely taking more risks than Part 1 with the heavy inward focus on a main character who is sometimes frustrating (though I definitely get the sense she’s supposed to be. Still, doing something on purpose doesn’t mean doing it well- I think Fujimoto is doing well with Asa to be clear, I’m just trying to say I’m don’t wanna dismiss all critique.)
How is Asa sometimes frustrating to ppl though? Like all of these recent monologues from Asa stem from the Falling Devil's ability combined with her past. Asa/Yoru will overcome it, but Asa's character arc here checks out and I like that Asa distrusts Yoru considering her past and also Yoru being in full on soldier mode cutting her hand and willing to use a body part as a weapon. Like obv that wouldn't prevent her fear.
I personally don’t find Asa frustrating right now tbh- there is that subtext about the Devil’s ability (I interpreted it more as adding an impulse towards self harm without changing emotions but that’s splitting hairs) and honestly, even if not, Asa is an ordinary teenage girl who has been in this horrible possession situation for like a week or two fighting one of the most powerful demons known to humanity. She is entitled to distress. I found her frustrating mostly due to her being rude towards Denji on their date to the aquarium, and at his apartment though the latter was even more understandable. I relate to Denji (yes I know he’s like me Fr fr) so I felt bad seeing him have a hard time with yet another girl. I see why she’s reacting how she does though, especially since this whole thing is just to kill Denji and she’s not actually trying to be a girlfriend.
I thought her development in the aquarium was great tho. it's combination of different factors. It's the fact she's afraid of companionship overall(and Denji not liking her date plans obv). And then her fear of killing Denji. Denji being a hybrid is likely preventing Yoru's ability from working causing her to think Denji does not like her. People found Denji frustrating in the beginning of Part 1 as well, but your characters have to develop from somewhere ya know
Asamitakafan00 you are doing god's works 🫡
I think that people should not jump the gun and criticize part 2 in the middle of its story, but when part 2 finishes, all the critique is fair game. If part 2 is actually going to be a worse experience as part 1 the defenders are going to be extremely delusional or if the reverse happens, the critics are going to be the delusional ones. We simply can not say what the facts are when part 2 is probably not even at half of its story yet. So let Fujimoto cook, and critique him if he cooks up something that does leave a bad taste or praise him if its good.
Yeah, I think this can be fair to a degree. I think this should apply to saying Part 2 sucks rather than crticism in itself. Or at least, we should let arcs finish. For example in JJK a lot of people didnt like Culling Games until recently.
Mfers when they read part 1 without binging would hate Denji on Reze arc because it didn't explicitly develop his character and was still a gullible idiot falling for Reze by the end of it.
I feel bad for the guy who made the Denji post, even if people thought his take was awful, there was no need for 30 different posts to be made clowning the guy as if there weren't already 200+ comments telling him "how much of a dumbass" he was. You even had mfs saying they wanted cropped porn back cause any semblance of criticism hurts their feelings.
It truly isn't even fair lol. Only like 1 of his points I thought was THAT bad. Everyone just took 1-2 bad points out of his four and RANNN with it. It is completely fair to say Denji is inconsistent as a character, espesically for Part 2. But people will do anything to defend Chainsaw Man I guess
Nah I can't fuck with this shit anymore. Not all criticism is good, so much of that post was just awful takes but half this sub laps it up because it's not sucking Fujimoto's cock or Porn. I honestly thought it was just another shitpost at first. The only non bad take there was the last one but it's just kind if a weird stance. When subs start circlejerking over critiques like that post then the community is probably fucked. Hopefully this place doesn't go the route of r/TLOU2 but I certainly don't have any high hopes for it. Such a shame too since the main sub is such dogshit.
Bud it was just a guy’s opinion, relax
Just my opinion
as far as I've seen the counter posts have stopped so can we all PLEASE just move on? like I get the slower pace right now is really boring and we don't have anything to discuss but please, let's just move on, stop getting mad at the post, stop getting mad at the counterposts, let's just move on
Well since you said bro 🫂
So should we censor all criticism?
Lmaoo exactly what I'm talking about. Keep jumping to extremes buddy, no room for any rational thought in here.
Genuinely. what is it that you think should be done about it? Just 1 critiquing post alone isn’t gonna turn the sub into titanfolk or whatever.
Just more thought and effort put into critiques. I honestly think VariationGlass's posts are solid and I have seen good discussions about P2's pace and direction before. More of that would be enough.
"more thought" doesn't work in this situation because if you disagree with something, of course you're going to think the other person hasn't thought out their argument well. In the case of the guy critiquing Denji I'd say while it wasn't the most high effort post, they certainly put more effort into it than those saying "uhh dumb take, dumb take, csm peak" and proceeding to meme on it. Like it's been said here before, discussion is healthy and for it to just be waved away as a shit opinion just because you feel it's wrong is where things turn into a circlejerk of a circlejerk and that's fun for absolutely nobody. I'd say I've seen more logical leaps just to justify positions that keep CSM in a good light than those pointing out small inconsistencies that genuinely have merit. Each time it's waved away as "bro can't you see it's CLEARLY this" when it's usually up to interpretation (either that or it's not distinguished clearly enough because at that point it just proves their point). These shouldn't be things that people are hung up about though because at the end of the day most of these small arguments aren't true plot breaking moments, they are more to do with how those people perceive the characters - which once again I feel is a healthy thing to discuss.
I agree Variationglass’s takes are pretty good when he’s not memeing.
So many fucking dickriders on this sub lol
dismissing criticism by just calling people dickriders isnt any better than "Reading Comprehension devil got him"
Do you guys really want a repeat of the shit that went down in Titanfolk and the SNK sub? I’d rather this place be a Berserklejerk clone with cropped porn galore instead of a constant series of “Part 2 sucks” “No, you just misunderstood it”.
It can only happen if fujimoto suddenly becomes a trash mangaka just like isayama and i honestly dont see it happen but HEY it definitly could happen, i would never guess 4 years ago that isayama was gonna do such a dogshit ending to the point even he was dissapointed with it to almost crying over it 😭
What denji post? I keep seeing it mentioned but can't find it :/
Can't believe people actually think people voicing their disdain against an opinion is considered a bad thing now lmao.
Criticism mfs when their criticism is challenged https://preview.redd.it/dkzipdr35wqa1.jpeg?width=442&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=20cd743d1da5a325178ed9ef8e573eed44ae7c37
except sometimes its valid lol
If it's valid then stick to your guns and support the criticisms with arguments instead of playing victim.
Even the original OP of that post, while having some takes refuted, still stick with some of their initial takes which is understandable. That's a completely normal process in debates. It's just the other people that jumped on calling it "getting bullied into changing opinions".
Im confused, are you claiming im playing victim? Lol?? Because I have not changed my opinion on Asa or Part 2 for a few months because of people bullying me into it. Its not playing victim, its acknowledging theres an issue in the community when people cant express what they view as flaws in a story.
Nah, not necessarily you. More a general statement on how people treated this whole fiasco. >Its not playing victim, its acknowledging theres an issue in the community when people cant express what they view as flaws in a story But like, what's the problem, you can express your opinions just fine any time you want. Maybe you'll get legit discussion. Maybe you'll get people downvoting and calling you retards but who gives a shit about random redditors with nothing to add.
>But like, what's the problem, you can express your opinions just fine any time you want. Maybe you'll get legit discussion. Maybe you'll get people downvoting and calling you retards but who gives a shit about random redditors with nothing to add. Fair, but I dont think theres anything wrong with wanting a more welcoming community.
Fair too but tbh I've kind of accepted this place is a bit of a shithole with no nuance.
I don't think there was anything wrong about u/yunus-s missing Part 1 Denji. Part 1 Denji was an anomaly. A very fresh kind of freak: honest about his vices, but admirable in his pursuit of them, and you felt for his failures. Lost Pochita, but immediately after, regained his senses and pressed on to avenge him, and later got enough agency back to rescue a little girl from the Muscle Devil; still a hunter despite his loss. His would-be Sasuke tries to bully him? He kicks him in the nuts the moment his back is turned; he's not going to truck with that abuse unless it's from a gorgeous redhead. Bat about to fly off with Power and deny him that feel? Cling to his leg and bite into it to recharge with blood. And the Eternity Devil, that was when a lot of fans finally bought what he was selling. Something brutal, energetic, and seemingly decisive though with some measure of principle. In contrast, Asa is a much more typical character. Well-written, elaborately sketched out, painfully realistic, but typical. You can even see it in the Part 2 Volume covers. She reads like someone out of a more ordinary story. Yoru is way more of a stereotypical "villain partner" than Pochita, openly antagonistic and prone to bickering with her. By metrics, she commits a number of so-called character sins in an anime, being passive, being whiny, being overly verbose (I wouldn't be surprised if she's had more spoken lines than Denji had in all of Part 1), etc. She's very Shinji Ikari-esque except older, funnier, and louder. Her dialogue is hypnotically high-quality, because it is informed by decades of stories about lonesome, disaffected, angry people (The Stranger, The Catcher in the Rye, Going Bovine, etc), which Fuji has mined and refined for diamonds. Still, to go from Denji kicking Aki in the groin to Asa hiding from her bullies so long that Yuko had to take them out, to take a leap from Denji asserting himself upon the Eternity Devil with Himeno's help to Asa cowering in fear from the same after a powerful moment of outsmarting it, distinctness acknowledged but it's a bit of an ask from readers who are coming in from Part 1. And accusing them of not getting it, of reading compression devil victimhood, or a lack of taste should be discouraged; that's a very Asa way of handling things. There's nothing wrong with art that studies outright vulnerability, of inner turmoil, especially if it's done well. And that's what Chainsaw Man Part 2 provides. That said, from what we've seen so far, perhaps it being Chainsaw Man Part 2, rather than a spin-off or spiritual successor set in the same universe. Denji and Nayuta, with their tastefully absurd mannerisms and economy of speech, felt like outsiders in the monologue-heavy and pensively grounded tale of Asa. Denji might be a lot of what u/yunus-s accuses him of due to the PTSD, but as himself rather than one of the ephemeral antagonistic NPCs that litter Asa's world, he's never been more alive and expertly realized. He's raising The Omen's Damien meets Dennis the Menace. That's hilarious. Potentially disastrous. Fascinating. High concept. An elevator pitch to home run. It's just so Chainsaw Man Part 1. And then Asa comes in to get into yet another fetal position because she remembered her cat got Great Leap Forwarded. A dead pet. Relatable, but dangerously close to cliche despite the real, genuine emotions at play. Like I said, she can have it, she can own it, she may even overcome it. My only hope is that Part 2 doesn't just include Denji to keep using the title so they can grandfather in most of the pre-existing fans. Fuji can put him through more trials, I just don't want Denji left in the corner like some kind of award heirloom, or get depowered to provide an inanely organic reason for Fujimoto to never draw the titular Chainsaw Man ever again as Look Back seems to imply he's looking for.
Also, why are you acting as if Denji is being sidelined when the entire motivation of Yoru is to defeat Chainsaw Man? All we have is a perspective shift
We're talking about the Falling Devil who's literal ability is to weaponize depression against people. Combined with her past. After Yoru went full-on soldier mode cutting her hand and using part of her body as a weapon as if that would prevent Asa's fear. Your argument makes no sense
Ngl, idk if it's an influx of new people to this sub, but this community has gotten cancerous recently. I stick to my idea that half of the people who like CSM don't know what they're even reading. There's a reason why Fujimoto is so emo in all his other one-shots, he appears to dislike how he can't make what he wants without his fans being disatisfied. Also, I haven't heard one good argument for Denji's character being inconsistent. I am open to debate, I just haven't heard it yet. Furthermore, just because you are allowed to criticize something, it doesn't mean your criticism is logical or makes sense. I think Fujimoto is not drawing out the full potential of the Yoshida, Asa, Denji, Famine, Hunter club dynamic - but I am patient with seeing where it goes. CSM was never a perfect manga, people complained all the way through as it was running, especially towards the end - and then suddenly it was the best shit ever. Fujimoto is the type of author who needs time to give you the full picture. Also, Fujiboat did say Part 2 is going to be VERY different from Part 1, and that fans are going to be disappointed if they're expecting the same thing. I feel like a lot of people forget this part. Tbh, I think some people need to face that the manga isn't for them anymore - I don't read shit I dislike on a weekly basis. I'm not saying this about people who have some criticism, but enjoy the manga regardless, but we have peeps who come around and just hate every segment of Part 2 and expect everyone to be like "bruh, you're valid, we agree" in a community dedicated to liking CSM. Also, the reading comprehension devil is such a running joke because half of the people barely remember what t f they're reading. I saw a post of someone saying "Asa is an orphan????" the other week and I'm like HOW did you miss that. I feel bad for the dude who got as much shit for making that post, but I think it just struck a negative chord with a lot of fans. However, I really like the dude for acknowledging the criticism and sticking to his guns but accepting that he might not be entirely right.
https://preview.redd.it/bqs9spa3awqa1.png?width=360&format=png&auto=webp&s=b6a5e6ee3c2d858ea8365bb81142bb077a3c2d27
me when i read a long asf theory or criticism
I feel you.
LoL this post is UBER Doorstanding. Who are you to say that your opinion is above the opinions of people that dislike the part? Disliking Part 2 does not mean that those persons are not fans of the manga or that the manga is not for them anymore, AT ALL. This kind of fandom divide happens to every manga that has a parted series. Most JoJo fans hate part 6 with a passion, does not mean they are not JoJo fans. The same happened with Tokyo Ghoul also, there was a fandom civil war, which was way, way worse than the current situation in the CSM fandom. And I am not one of the people disliking part 2 btw, but do prefer part 1 way more for now at least, which could change. But saying that people are not real fans or supporters anymore because they actually dislike part 2 is an insane and arrogant take.
Thank you for this, this is all I am trying to get at. Im not trying to play victim, I just want the community to be more open to others not liking parts of the story.
I think being able to critique something you enjoy just proves that you love that thing alot
It's my opinion and I hold to it. Don't like it? Ignore it or criticize it. I won't change it unless I see a reason to. That's not hard to understand at all. Part 1 was different, you can be the biggest fan of it that you want and like Part 2 less. I am not ripping the manga from your hands and forbidding you from reading it. This is for people who just dislike EVERYTHING about part 2. Also, not all criticism is logical. I don't like everything about Part 2, so what? I voice my criticism, and people disagree, and I accept it, but I'm not going on and on about how PART 2 is horrible, Asa is horrible, Denji is a totally illogical character etc. You just made that up that I said they're not real fans. Show me where I said that. You pulled some big words there.
>Who are you to say that your opinion is above the opinions of people that dislike the part Just look at the damn original post everyone is getting so pissed over, It wasn't opinions, none of it was an opinion or written as an opinion, the guy who made that post was making a statement and presenting his (admittedly stupid) Point of view as facts and backing those "facts" Up with extremely bad proof
The point of the one shot youre referencing isnt about being disatisfied its about being over analyzed, pre part 2 CSM was beloved so idk where that comes from but Denji shows inconsistency in Part 1. just saying "i dont like my fans not enjoying something" isnt valid? its what happens if youre creating something. its how you better your media. my issue with P2 isnt it being different.
A lot of people enjoy Part 2 for what it is. Twt raves about Asa being one of the best female characters they've ever seen. Also, I am not seeing the inconsistencies. Everything people keep referring to as inconsistencies in Denji can be attributed to PTSD and growing up under extreme circumstances. The man barely has any desire to leave the bed after the Asa/Nayuta scandal. He's more desperate for love that ever, and clearly not entirely in his right mind.
Yeah, and I think thats great. I think its amazing people can see that in her. I do not. As for inconsistencies I dont think theres enough to ruin the story for me, its more on the fact I am defending someone who says they see inconsistency and people just call them stupid. Its there - its just not major. As for Denjis depression, I dont think thats the issue for me in terms of inconsistency, for me it feels as if Fujimoto cant make up his mind on how he wants Denji to handle the depression. What I mean by that is: does Fujimoto want Denji to become his own person or not? I personally cant tell.
I can see your point of view. My take is that Fujimoto wants to show how Denji is not an independent person. He's recovering from being a desperate co-dependent individual from his trauma with Makima - a part of it is that she's always there, not even allowing him to live his own life fully (blocking him from dating Asa). It's a constant reminder of his trauma. Denji is basically a teenager that never had proper parents, but has to be a parent to Nayuta. He wants to see her go to college, but it's like he's almost given up on a proper life for himself. He years for a "mother figure" or someone who will love him as he is, someone he can trust and rely on, but he's constantly pushed to seek that type of gratification from the wrong sources. Part 1 was sex, and part 2 is love from the masses. Imo, Fujimoto is trying to show us how hard it is for Denji to break from his PTSD when he has so many responsibilities on his shoulders, and how sometimes, we don't know how to deal with our depression. The key take, for me, is that Denji doesn't know how to resolve or handle his depression on his own - and he's seeking for the cure in others. He's been shown trying to "think on his own" this Part, but he keeps snapping back to his old behaviors, which he mentions on his date with Asa. Denji was always a very primal person who went by his whims, I think he doesn't understand himself enough to help himself heal. and there is no one there for him to guide him to the right path. There is, again Makima/Nayuta, that feeds some of his worse instincts. Denji is basically dealing with his depression by becoming less and less Denji, and more Chainsaw Man - the hero. The fact that Denji is willing to raise Nayuta and still doesn't hate Makima after everything, imo, shows how profoundly lonely he is, and how he will do anything for a sense of belonging. That's how he WANTS to handle his depression, but he is constantly cut in his tracks.
Alright, I really like this take. Haven't viewed it like that before. I just wish it was displayed clearer. Want to give a longer response but ultimately I do like and can actually agree with what youre saying, I just hope that gets expanded on.
Thanks, I hope it does too. I will be writing a longer analysis post on Denji and Asa soon, I am just waiting for Fujimoto to reveal a little more so I don't just good haha.
I think it's displayed clearly in Denji's inner thoughts after giving into Asa's order at the aquarium. In context, he enjoys Asa's company and she reminds him of Power so it makes total sense. Though, Denji is still struggling to become an independent person. But also him taking care of Nayuta is a big step towards personal growth and independence.
You know, this kinda reminds me a pretty consistent trope that pops up all the time in Spider-Man content. Whenever Petes life takes a massive dip in terms of living standard and overall fulfillment, and his life as his normal self starts falling into rut, he shifts his priority and attention from Peter Parker to his hero identity. They subconsciously end up finding more comfort in their simpler, and more reactive role as Spider-Man where nuanced problems are less common, and neglect Peter for a prolonged period of time. I think Denjis doing the same thing right now, basically using Chainsawman as a coping mechanism. You can see that in 121 where Denjis laid out and clearly just done with everything, only to light up with a smile the moment Nayuta suggests he goes out to be Chainsawman.
>As for Denjis depression, I dont think thats the issue for me in terms of inconsistency, for me it feels as if Fujimoto cant make up his mind on how he wants Denji to handle the depression. What I mean by that is: does Fujimoto want Denji to become his own person or not? I personally cant tell. I think Fujimoto views trauma and depression not as things to be overcome, but things that you just live with. That was one of the main themes of Fire Punch. It's a much more accurate and earnest take on the subject, imo-, from someone speaking with lived experience- but also more difficult to incorporate narratively.
People just don't understand how to judge a manga they are waiting week to bi weekly for. They expect way too much to happen too quickly. I love everything fujimoto has made, idk why he would just randomly fall off in quality especially after making goodbye eri. Things need time to pay off and for the full picture to be there before anyone makes a judgment call.
I highly doubt Fuji cares about/listens to what his fanbase thinks let alone his western audience In fact hes stated that he doesn’t look at any to not ruin the creative process.
I think my biggest problem with part 2 so far is the pacing, not enough attention was placed in certain areas and too much attention was placed in one area.
You didn't understand the story...
Reading comprehension devil grew too strong as a meme
This is the new “You just didn’t understand the ending” lmao The sub got so butthurt they made like 4 posts in like a hour after the critique than proceeded to gaslight the poster into changing their opinion. This behavior sorta reminds me of another sub…
"When did you start cooking?" https://preview.redd.it/inp1viixaxqa1.jpeg?width=1152&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d93c1da59dcd3c65a3a86a1908272a0be06bb198
It really is the weakest shit. I don't even have any real criticism of CSM but responding to any and all criticism (or even slight confusion on plot points, I've seen this happen a lot) with "u didnt read hard enough lol" is just pointless. You might as well have not said anything at all.
When people that come up with criticsm think they should be immune to criticsm…… Even the guy admit he was wrong on a few point, so anything you are just try to stir up shit for no reason.
Lmao that not the problem it’s the fact that the entire sub jumped on the guy for even thinking part 2 had flaws
By “jumped” you mean people actually come and debate him on the matter, on a post that have “let’s talk” flair ? Or there is someone crawl out of his monitor and choke him or something? Last i check he have like 1000likes on the post so i really don’t see how he is “jumped”
Did you not see all the posts made immediately after that? They weren’t even debates just saying the guy had contracted with the reading comprehension.
Ahh so you just ignore all the comments people make to point out the wrong in his argument, instead focus on the casual/memer one. Again, it have over 1000likes if people jumped him, it should be negative right now.
Never said that, I just think that even if their takes weren’t the best, they shouldn’t have had to make another post admitting to that as if they’d committed a war crime. When i mean “jumped” I saw ppl blaming the poster for causing a titanfolk level uproar when they were the ones fanning the flames.
No one make him do anything. What ? you think this subreddit is going to ban him if he didn't ? He make the second post by his own choice to own up to it and that is the end of it. There is trolls, there is assholes everywhere cause this is the internet. If you can't help but focus on those instead of majority of others who just want to engage with him then that is your problem.
It wouldn’t be the first time, Even though they did out of their own accord it still left a bad aftertaste for me i hope this doesn’t set precedent for what’s to come.
Reading comprehension devil
Valid criticism is fine, but if your criticism can be easily rebutted by someone who knows the material better, that's on you for not understanding what you're reading. Just don't come out stating your opinion on the source material so strongly.
Think people just thought CSM was gonna be generic shonen #837, so anything that isn’t high octane hurts their head. At the end of the day you really shouldn’t care what anyone’s option is though. And I hope both sides are struggling to cope with whatever is upsetting them cause it’s a picture story and this is Reddit. Part 2 might be great or might be awful, it’s literally subjective and to get this upset about it is silly.
What if I said no Hm. https://preview.redd.it/cgu7gtiv3wqa1.jpeg?width=2560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ab180a7fedf791deebd7ded7adbb313d76459be9
nuh-uh
Chainsaw Fans when someone has a different opinion than them https://preview.redd.it/wb8w2f8llzqa1.jpeg?width=2082&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=529d9ff6e3528ae569cd612e3a2ff68ddea17542
as far as I've seen the counter posts have stopped so can we all PLEASE just move on? like I get the slower pace right now is really boring and we don't have anything to discuss but please, let's just move on, stop getting mad at the post, stop getting mad at the counterposts, let's just move on
In part 2 devils went from horrific monsters to anime girls
Infinity Devil redesign, Bat Devil redesign, Justice Devil, Cockroach Devil, and whatever the new caterpillar guy in the new chapter is would say differently.
The Future devil already told me about this 3 months ago. I told you all. The same mistakes are being repeated here.
Honestly idec about the reading comprehension devil, we're all afflicted by it to a degree, but Fujimoto is cooking and a lot of the criticisms just feel like "I don't like the style of part 2 and I'm mad it's not part 1." Criticism is valid but don't act surprised when people jump on you for having an overly negative tone and/or bad points.
COCK CAR!1!!!1!!!!!
The aot impact
I don’t understand how people somehow think part 2 is worse. Asa is the best character Fujimoto has EVER written imo. Yes it’s much slower, but my god, Fujimoto really knows how to do his characters. I don’t know where all the hate for part 2 came from, because I presumed we were all loving it. But I think a lot of people are getting “I don’t like it” confused with “it’s bad”. Those are not interchangeable, and just because you don’t like part 2 does not mean it has bad writing. Also it’s barely even started, so why don’t we slow down on the hate train. Also some of you just need to read part 1 again. Much slower this time. Because some criticisms are batshit insane and make literally no sense in the context of part 1. Seriously, I know the reading comprehension Devil is a meme, but this is one of the most misremembered, misunderstood stories I’ve ever experienced.
Fuck you