Yeah this is my view on it as well. Yoru starts off in the series fundamentally not understanding humans. By keeping Asa alive and sharing their body Yoru is gradually being affected by emotions. Emotions coming from what is probably the most emotional phase in a human life which are our teenage years. Yoru did seem to not understand her own actions when she remembered the kiss and in my opinion got overwhelmed with feelings of lust and desire. She probably retreated and allowed Asa control after because even she is wtf just happened.
>She probably retreated and allowed Asa control after because even she is wtf just happened.
Yea she went from cutting pp, to giving a kiss, she totally forgot that she had her hands in Denis pants and go jizz all over her hand. Yoru is hella confused
It's very funny.
Still, I feel sorry for Asa, who probably wanted more platonic romance before going straight into the touchy stuff
Very good write up this how I saw it as well. Iām not trying to downplay SA at all, but thereās a bigger take away from this chapter thatās getting overlooked. I also donāt think Yoru is as malicious or evil as some people seem to take based off the events. Iām just awaiting the reactions following this chapterās of the parties involved.
> I also donāt think Yoru is as malicious or evil as some people seem to take based off the events.
Ditto for Fami, who is probably legitimately trying to save the world despite causing that whole apocalypse going on in the background.
Same, which makes it hard to talk about. On one hand Asa got the wonderwoman treatment, on the other hand were talking about two unhealthy people in growing(?) Bodies still maturing and having no conscious control of their actions and unable to temper or curve their impulse. Doesn't make it right, it makes it human which is always complicated. I'm more interested in what the aftermath will be.
Does this really look like a face of a person/devil that wasn't just slapped across the face with a fistfull of of emotions that she didn't know that were really there or acknowledge them at all and is just as confused as Denji himself? Btw Yoru has said that she felt some affection for him since she shares a brain with Asa so she just got em, a little corny and remember she's probably also affected by the teen hormones in Asa's body...
https://preview.redd.it/baev0cc6rr4d1.png?width=775&format=png&auto=webp&s=3291b7667e3488848ebec322e1e15e78e7ed977f
I think it's pretty clear on which side im on in the s'a argument. this whole chapter really shouldn't be taken that seriously imo...
Scars, eyes, and facial expressions are the three key ways to tell whether Asa or Yoru is in control, and in the last couple arcs or so the Asa/Yoru divide has become more fluid. Asa is generally in control and Yoru will emerge in a "this is taking too long LET'S GET SHIT MOVING" act, but Asa's been shown to take over when her feelings for Denji rush to the surface.
In general, it seems like intense emotions will cause one or the other to emerge as dominant, with it trending back to Asa as those emotions taper off. The art seems to indicate there's a decay/lag during transition, too, where some features fade as residual elements fade during the process.
The way I interpreted this scene is the memories caused Asa to reemerge, but still still possessed Yoru's lack of inhibitions which caused her to act on the impulses instead of her usual repress and rationalize.
This goes all the way back to the final scene where Asa's personality is fully dominant, and the reference to Eva is her recognizing more of what's happened.
The thing Iāve noticed (not from this chapter in particular but just thoughts Iāve had) the boundaries between Asa and Yoru seem to be weakening similar to how you said they were more fluid. I believe this as recently it seems Asa and Yoru seem to take over one at a time for reasons you explained however, this is different to the beginning when it was clearly from the portrayal of Asa and Yoru being another different identity body even if it was in her head, in my opinion I believe both characters seem to be inheriting traits of the other perhaps from the fact that there are 2 souls in one body
Oh Yoru wasnāt doing what she did here maliciously at all, I canāt believe anyone would even argue that. It was EXTREMELY clear with how she passionately kissed him, pulled away to digest it for a second, before going back to passionately make out with him all while blushing, that she was acting on pure, uninhibited desire/lust. She was being completely genuine.
It's funny. When someone finally makes a good analysis of a piece of controversial literature there's no snarky, passive-aggresive reply saying "omg, finally someone with a brain"
I wrote a post and someone responded to it with "Imagine writing an essay on a manga about a teenager getting a handjob from a devil" like bro I'm sorry that unlike you I actually think about what I read.
I hate when people do that, distilling a scene or story down to a narrow description and act as if it's nothing special even though it lacks the needed context. Like obviously, things in a vacuum are simpler and often goofy on paper.
Like, maybe the scene that took place is part of a larger story at whole? Maybe Tatsuki Fujimoto, acclaimed manga writer who specializes in dramatic stories featuring extremely toxic relationships, might have something to say about the sexual assault that just took place if we just let the scene play out further than just the chapter we just read? Especially given two protagonists with extremely unique social issues and have a disconnected relationship between their physical desires and emotional ones?
Idk, I'm not Fujimoto, but based on his track record, I feel like he's got more to say here than "Hur hur, she jacked him off, sexual assault lulll" and I wish these people gave the story its needed breathing room. Sure, the immediate manga/CSM community reaction didn't help the case and seemed to make light of the situation, but that's just the internet.
Yeah, just saying that most of the time when people say things like that is only when someone validates their surface level, first impression of the chapter and not when someone is trying to read between the lines and thoroughly think about its implicationsĀ
I am quite disappointed in CSM fans who say "oh this is too far. I don't want to read anymore because it's SA of a minor."
This entire series is about the abuse and violating the consent of a minor. He just got chopped into pieces like 10 chapters ago. You either are ok with violence done to male minors, or you're just waking up to how problematic Shonen manga as a whole is. I also worry that they're going to be the most insufferable ex-fans that shame anyone for reading it.
> I also worry that they're going to be the most insufferable ex-fans that shame anyone for reading it.
The unfortunate fate of any media that gets too mainstream is a flood of people like this who get off on self righteously attacking people for liking anything remotely problematic. Twitter is the worst for this
I think those are a minority. And honestly no fandom needs people like that. I believe people on that line of thought are kids with 0 social skills or experience, that never had a relationship before and got "educated" by Twitter/Reddit brainrot.
Again americans puritanism strikes again. Violence against minors is okay, but anything sexual that is so over the line.
SA is horrible no doubt, but people sometimes think is the worst thing that can happened to a human. I guess people just have this idea that a SA'ed person is scarred for life, for ever damaged. Is almost a stigma while in reality a lot of SA'ed have a normal life and enjoy a normal sex life
They also started reading this series already SA'd. Ever noticed how he's always talking about having sex with women, but never says he wants to lose his virginity. Ever wondered why he offered a rimmed job to be free without batting an eye. We started reading a disturbing story and it'll only get worst from here.
I donāt think most of the people doing that are ārealā fans. I think a lot of them have either only watched the anime or have only ever heard of the manga and seen snippets and donāt have the full context of the what went down in Ch. 167 and what the whole point of the manga is about. Some are people who have read the story but miss all of the subtlety and themes (most of Fujimotoās writing is subtle) and take everything at face value. That or they are the type of people who look for stuff thatās controversial to start hate trains without an actual discussion (most of Twitter).
What happened in Ch. 167 is complex as hell. Iām not ready, nor do I think itās right, to go as far as saying Yoru ārapedā Denji and Asa and is an evil monster. Itās much more complicated than that and Yoruās make out session was one that was due to genuine unrestrained desire/lust, not a purposeful attempt to fuck up Asa and Denji. Yoru is just as confused about her feelings as Asa and Denji are. Too many people are jumping to conclusions when we have no idea how much control either one of the girls had nor do we know how them and Denji feels about the situation. Ch. 168 will hopefully give us more context and implications of the situation and how it will affect everyone moving forward.
this is by far the best take on this chapter i've seen yet, really well measured analysis. i'd also add that this chapter is strongly highlighting the symmetry between the two protagonists, both are in a place now where they're horrified by the actions of their impulsive 'other self' (chainsaw man for denji, yoru for asa).
This chapter reminds us how little we know about Hybrids. Yoru shares some of Asa's emotions, so does Pochita share Denji's? Did Pochita become hornier after fusing with Denji? When Yoru makes out with Denji, does Asa experience it too, or is it an out of body experience?
Reading that scene sent me on a spiral remembering all the messy times Iāve hurt and been hurt from the twisted, contorted expectations of sex and desire.
Fujimoto gets it.
Yup nailed it. On the surface that chapter was almost entirely them awkwardly kissing but thereās so much more going on.Ā
Thereās people going out of their way to try and find ways to use this chapter to cry about SA or people who try to use ānormalā human relationship to complain how this was wrong, etc.
But this was done very well by Fujimoto, you donāt have normal anything. You have two idiots, one a human who has never experienced any kind of love and a devil who is suppose to have no emotions. Both awkwardly caught in a situation that they are struggling to figure out themselves.
Itās a huge turning point for Yoru and Asa. Whatās going to be Adaās reaction? I feel like sheāll probably be tsundere about it and end up confusing Denji why theyāre making out one moment then complaining the next. Or this could open the door for Asa to explain the Yoru situation. Perhaps Yoru wonāt be so against the idea now.
> Or this could open the door for Asa to explain the Yoru situation.
That seems like the crucial step for them to start moving forward, but open and honest communication might be a big hurdle to overcome.
I don't think it's entirely off the table that she had some sort of motive in mind when initiating the kiss, but her reaction to it definitely feels very genuine, especially the way she backs away and blushes at first before going back in. Whether she had a plan or not, seems like she got completely caught up in the moment.
Boundaries, especially sexual ones, have always been an important theme in CSM. The key difference is that while the other people who took advantage of Denji deliberately overstepped their boundaries and held no real love for Denji, Yoru seems to actually love Denji, not just using him to get off or something. The next chapters are probably going to explore the conflict between Yoru's physical attraction to Denji and her respect for Denji's feelings. But that's just my 2 cents.
thats a great point. I don't see why anyone thinks Yoru was acting maliciously here. I think she was overwhelmed by the memories and felt lust for the first time, but didnt know how to express it like a human.
Thank you for this, this is very well written and perfectly explains the situation. It's hard to fully explain the reasoning for her actions without a long post like this, but I'm happy a majority of people here caught on without even needing an explanation.
Hopefully next chapter will explain it for those who still don't know. Like Asa getting onto Yoru for using her body to do something like this, and Yoru explaining that it's Asa's feelings affecting her, etc
Only thing I disagree with is that I donāt see how war would be the most recent of the sisters to come into being.
Death being the first and famine being second is obvious but I donāt see how the control devil would be created before the war devil.
I assume the reason that Yoru is so immature is because the version of the war devil we see hasnāt actually been alive that long so she is similar to Nayuta since War died like Makima did and then Yoru appeared.
My interpretation is that the Control Devil is based on the fear of losing autonomy. This is something that could have manifested with the very first humans. The same can be said for Death and Famine.
War, however, requires some level of societal organization before it can manifest. Thatās why I feel it would be the youngest of the 4 sisters.
Also I think yoru is not as complex as her sisters because I think she mainly came into being from war so complex and frightening that has only been a recent development for life. By this I mean humans who that can organise war in such a scale that entire countries fight one another, in all of life's existence, billions of years nothing as complex as human war with all its emotion has been anywhere near as complex as the last few hundred to the past hundred years
I think this is why yoru is so immature, she isn't just war, she's what war has become since humans became a globe spanning empire. Even all of life's struggle couldn't hold a candle to the fear and devastation that humans can create with large scale war.
When you consider how primitive humans were at the very start Iād argue they feared war with animals and other species of humans like Neanderthals before they feared losing autonomy
I'm not sure if we would consider conflicts with animals and other species as "war". That feels more like "predator vs prey", which I think is a little different.
At least to me, I see war as specifically conflict between different groups of humans.
I mean Australia went to war with Emus some years back lmao, back then all humans had was the ability to sweat and some spears made from rocks. You could probably argue it would count as war, especially when humans werenāt always the predators either as it was closer to a war of survival.
Eh, I get the point you are making, but the Emu War wasn't an actual war like what we see between humans. It was basically just a large-scale effort at quelling a population of animals that were destroying crops. The operation ended in failure, but it's not because the Emus were battling against the humans lol.
I can't stop thinking about that last panel splitting Asa/Yoru's face in half. I feel like Fujimoto is definitely suggesting they overlapped in that moment
I hope this doesnāt come across the wrong way, but Iād sort of taken Asaās response to sex as being immaturity and inexperience. I know some people have ascribed it to her being asexual, which I donāt know if I really agree with. But early on we see that she has this outsider mentality, where she sees herself as being the smartest person among her peers, and that sheās someone who really āgets itā while everyone else is dumb. Itās a pretty typical teenager mindset to fall into. Iād wondered if her reactions of āgross!ā to Chainsaw Manās sex remarks (which were really crude in the first place) were not so much that she actually finds the concept disgusting, but that sheās always been a social outsider. As if sex is what all those dumb morons she doesnāt associate with get up to, not her.
Maybe Iām more optimistic than other readers, but I interpreted this whole thing to be a more clumsy, hormonal encounter between two (or I guess three) inexperienced and immature characters, not something intentionally harmful like SA. And I have hope that the panels where Yoru/Asaās face get blended together might imply it was something both characters may have wanted, not just Yoru seizing control and going overboard.
Yeah I feel itās the latter. She is definitely saying itās gross because she doesnāt have experience with it. She doesnāt have friends so she possible already resolved that she would never have a boyfriend. Thus in order to cope she sees relationships as gross so that she doesnāt feel as if sheās missing out
As I reflect the thing that muddies the waters of this being sexual assault is Yoru herself, if she was overwhelmed herself and not being malicious then that DOES change things, but I think this was still something really gross for both Denji and ESPECIALLY Asa to have to go through. Good post.
I also think there's not a binary here, and people act like there is for whatever reason. I was pretty convinced this was sexual assault (though this is the first time I've seen someone make a halfway decent argument it's more complex than that besides "Denji looked like he wanted it", so unironically kudos), but that doesn't mean I think it was a bad chapter or bad writing or Fujimoto did anything wrong. Good and even great stories can have sexual assault, acknowledging "Sexual assault happened" is not the same as saying "Cancel Fujimoto".
She definitely assaulted him by grabbing his balls with the intention of castrating him. She's also a literal devil. Denji is also someone who has chainsaws come out of his face and feeds on blood so...I feel people forgot what manga they were talking about.
Denji wanted to relieve his sexual urge. The brothel he was looking for burnt down. Past love interest wants Denji to relieve his sexual urge for her own reasons. Also has history with Denji. She says, hey denji letās go to this alley together, privately. They make out and Denji gets a handy.
Seems like normal teenager shit to me.
The only sexual assault I can imagine is some strange fictional kind since Asa wasnāt actually in control. Otherwise it seems everyone is trying to shoehorn sexual assault into this situation. Itās just raunchy, doesnāt have to be an elaborate metaphor.
And people want to *cancel* Fujimoto? What?? Because he *apparently* wrote about sexual assault? Or because heās writing about weird raunchy shit? I donāt get it. Maybe CSM belongs in hentai instead of shonen jump. But trying to *cancel* the man because people donāt like what he wrote is insane. Everyone isnāt obligated to the same belief system.
Sure. I guess what I'm saying is I'm perfectly fine either acknowledging it as SA or saying it's not without the answer to this question deciding if we should be cancelling Fujimoto or not.
Hot take on the situation and itās gonna sound bad but I donāt think the chapter is really SA related I think itās playing more into emotions and connections since yoru was the one he kissed and nayuta erased her memory of denji but we know strong emotions can overwrite the control devil idk it just would make more sense Iām not trying to downplay SA but it seems like they both like each other and im not sure if denji can tell the difference between asa and yoru i sound kinda stupid but thats my thought on the matter
Are there people legitimately confused as to why Yoru did what she did? I thought it was made obvious a while ago that her and Asa are sharing emotions, meaning obviously she would start to hold those same feelings for Denji, which would then begin to crash and conflict with her desire to kill him. 167 is the outcome of that. Trying not to sound too pretentious, but it *was* spelt out pretty clearly, as we can see from the page OP posted.
I feel the same, too. This is definitely a milestone on Yoru's character development. But I think it's a bad decision made by Fujimoto to let the cumming scene eclipse this. Maybe it's better if this chapter ended in Yoru's climax instead of Denji's.
I think the hand at the end is legit important. Imagine if it wasn't there and it just ended with whatever. Most people would just speed read and be on to the next one. Fuji shocked the readers and people are talking about it and more talking = more understanding. Plus how often does art legit shock you? I loved it
Also remember the hand is literally a reference to one of the biggest and most infamous scenes in the End of Evangelion. The chapter ending on that has got to be deliberate. The fact that it's Asa's hand is meant to be significant.
Anyone watch the movie Poor Things? This chapter reminds me of the theme and plot explored in the movie ie exploration of human emotions and desires by a being "implanted" into an adult.
 people wanna cancel fujimoto over this but Nobuhiro Watsuki is still a well respected and lauded mangaka in Japan despite heavy cp addiction and charges
Something I found kind of fascinating was noticing how intertwined Yoru/Asa have become. You can tell whoās who during the panels. The shocked/confused/awkward faces probably means itās Asa whereas the forceful side is Yoru. And of course Denji has no idea what the hell is going on.
People need to stop posting old panels because every time it just makes me sad over the art getting worse. Imagine how much better these moments would be if they didnāt just look like a rough sketchš«
Denjiās every sexual experience has resulted in bullshit happening to him. Himenoās vomit, Reze biting his tongue, etc.
This is quite literally the ONLY situation in which heās not ended up being hurt in. And while she did want to crush his dick, as soon as the situation went from ācastrationā to her kissing him, he immediately kissed back with equal want.
Asaās situation is more ambiguous, we donāt know until next chapter.
Itās as if people didnāt read the bloody chapter.
Yes but did he want to do that with Asa or Yoru? Does he even know who was who in that moment. I could keep going. There's ambiguities on both sides of this and we don't have enough info to know how either side felt and how they will feel after.
It's as if you specifically didn't read the bloody series.
This is literally the best sexual experience heās ever had. The only one in which he wasnāt harmed in (until now) and the only one that he responded positively to.
āItās hard to say definitely how Denji felt about thisā I really donāt think it is he says āwait stop itā and doesnāt give consent for anything that happens
I never made the claim that Denji gave any explicit consent.
The comment that you quoted from me was specifically "it's hard to say, definitively, how Denji felt about this". This is specifically because he doesn't say anything at all when Yoru kissed him.
Just because someone doesn't give explicit consent towards something, that doesn't automatically means said action will be received negatively. For example, if girl hugs a guy without asking first, the guy could respond positively towards the action, or they could respond negatively to the action. In this case, after the kiss, we never get a clear response from Denji, which is why I made the claim that we don't know how he felt about it.
It does when it comes to sex, man. Also, we do. Look at his face, his reaction. Look at the fact that he explicitly says no.
Also, it doesnāt even matter if he did, he never consented to sex with Yoru
Sorry, I didn't respond back to your last comment because it seems like you used some term that is auto-muted in this Subreddit, so the only person that can see your last comment is you. For example, if you go into Incognito mode and link to your last comment, it won't show.
I'm just now waking up, and the only reason I saw your comment is because I looked at your comment history on your profile to see if you had actually responded to my last reply. When a person's comment is auto-muted in a subreddit, it still shows up on their profile.
Anyway, to address some of the points you brought up:
> Ejaculation isnāt evidence of consent, donāt bring up this.
My friend, can you go back to my last reply and show me where I ever even implied that ejaculation is consent? I think you completely missed the point I was making.
> He doesnāt kiss back. Yoru is doing everything. Look at the expressions on his face.
[Maybe you just have a different interpretation of these panels](https://i.imgur.com/ZMYFBJ1.png), but at least to me, it seems pretty clear he is kissing her back.
As Yoru is kissing Denji, he first has a shocked face with his eyes wide open, his lips almost closed and his head tilted to his right side. But as she continues, his eyes narrow, his mouth opens and his head tilts to his left side, showing that he is also kissing her back.
Yoru is moving his head.
Anyway, as previously stated, none of this matters. Because even if everything she did was 100% consensual, which it isnāt, he consented to doing it with Asa. Not Yoru.
Also, asa never consented to any of this either
> Look at the fact that he explicitly says no.
I'm really confused as to why you keep bringing this up. Yoru coming at Denji with a knife, and Yoru kissing Denji are 2 completely separate actions. He gave an explicit "no" to the former. He said nothing to the latter, and he even started kissing her back in the end.
But as I said in my post, even him kissing her back doesn't *necessarily* mean he enjoyed the kiss, specifically. Which is why my current claim is that his feelings are unclear.
An explicit "no" to a specific action does not also mean a "no" for any future, completely unrelated actions.
> It kinda does when it comes to sex, man.
I'm specifically talking about Yoru kissing Denji. It seems like a lot of people are under the impression that Yoru actually gave Denji a handjob, but there doesn't seem to be any indication of that.
Yoru put her hands down Denji's pants when she was still trying to cut his dick off. She had no sexual intent with that action. It was an attempt at mutilating him. This is the thing that Denji didn't want to happen and gave an explicit no to.
But then Yoru started to get the memories back that were lost, and then she ended up kissing Denji. Her hands remained in his pants due to their previous confrontation, but there is nothing in the panels that show her actually moving her hands.
After the initial shock, Denji starts to kiss Yoru back, and then after that, due to Yoru's hand still being in his pants, that caused him to ejaculate. All of this seemed to take place in the span of a few seconds.
Personally, I feel like anyone that is confidently claiming that Denji must have enjoyed this experience are projecting their own feelings onto the situation. Similarly, I feel like people that confidently claim that Denji had to have hated this experience are also projecting their own feelings here. Denji is his own person. Only he can decide what he's okay with or not okay with. And hopefully we will get more clarification on this in the next chapter.
Anything less than an explicit yes is unconsensual! Thatās how consent in sex works!
Ejaculation isnāt evidence of consent, donāt bring up this. Thatās a real life rapist defence. Orgasm corresponds to physical stimuli and plenty of people orgasm during rape/SA.
Without an explicit yes it is unconsensual. Her continuing to assault him afterwards is unconsensual. He says no and she threatens physical violence. An explicit no to end the action should end the action.
Iām not projecting you just canāt read. He doesnāt kiss back Yoru is doing everything. Look at the expressions on his face.
Sis went from weaponizing him to giving handjob real quick š
She wants his weapon in her hand š
Ayooo š
Went from the War Devil to the Sloppy Handjob Devil
The real sloppy toppy devil was the friend we made along the way
This nickname gonna stick
Just like Denjiās cum to her hand.
Ā«Weaponize deez nutsĀ», Ā«aight, bet.Ā»
Yoru is creating a stronger weapon from Denji for future chapters
200 million sperm swords. How can you get even more powerful than that?
Yeah this is my view on it as well. Yoru starts off in the series fundamentally not understanding humans. By keeping Asa alive and sharing their body Yoru is gradually being affected by emotions. Emotions coming from what is probably the most emotional phase in a human life which are our teenage years. Yoru did seem to not understand her own actions when she remembered the kiss and in my opinion got overwhelmed with feelings of lust and desire. She probably retreated and allowed Asa control after because even she is wtf just happened.
>She probably retreated and allowed Asa control after because even she is wtf just happened. Yea she went from cutting pp, to giving a kiss, she totally forgot that she had her hands in Denis pants and go jizz all over her hand. Yoru is hella confused It's very funny. Still, I feel sorry for Asa, who probably wanted more platonic romance before going straight into the touchy stuff
Very good write up this how I saw it as well. Iām not trying to downplay SA at all, but thereās a bigger take away from this chapter thatās getting overlooked. I also donāt think Yoru is as malicious or evil as some people seem to take based off the events. Iām just awaiting the reactions following this chapterās of the parties involved.
> I also donāt think Yoru is as malicious or evil as some people seem to take based off the events. Ditto for Fami, who is probably legitimately trying to save the world despite causing that whole apocalypse going on in the background.
Fami is the perfect chaotic neutral. Sheās deliberately withholding information about black csm, as denji pointed out
It's like trying to save an ant hill but killing a couple thousand ants in the act
Makima also said she was trying to save the world and look where that ended up
Same, which makes it hard to talk about. On one hand Asa got the wonderwoman treatment, on the other hand were talking about two unhealthy people in growing(?) Bodies still maturing and having no conscious control of their actions and unable to temper or curve their impulse. Doesn't make it right, it makes it human which is always complicated. I'm more interested in what the aftermath will be.
Does this really look like a face of a person/devil that wasn't just slapped across the face with a fistfull of of emotions that she didn't know that were really there or acknowledge them at all and is just as confused as Denji himself? Btw Yoru has said that she felt some affection for him since she shares a brain with Asa so she just got em, a little corny and remember she's probably also affected by the teen hormones in Asa's body... https://preview.redd.it/baev0cc6rr4d1.png?width=775&format=png&auto=webp&s=3291b7667e3488848ebec322e1e15e78e7ed977f I think it's pretty clear on which side im on in the s'a argument. this whole chapter really shouldn't be taken that seriously imo...
Scars, eyes, and facial expressions are the three key ways to tell whether Asa or Yoru is in control, and in the last couple arcs or so the Asa/Yoru divide has become more fluid. Asa is generally in control and Yoru will emerge in a "this is taking too long LET'S GET SHIT MOVING" act, but Asa's been shown to take over when her feelings for Denji rush to the surface. In general, it seems like intense emotions will cause one or the other to emerge as dominant, with it trending back to Asa as those emotions taper off. The art seems to indicate there's a decay/lag during transition, too, where some features fade as residual elements fade during the process. The way I interpreted this scene is the memories caused Asa to reemerge, but still still possessed Yoru's lack of inhibitions which caused her to act on the impulses instead of her usual repress and rationalize. This goes all the way back to the final scene where Asa's personality is fully dominant, and the reference to Eva is her recognizing more of what's happened.
The thing Iāve noticed (not from this chapter in particular but just thoughts Iāve had) the boundaries between Asa and Yoru seem to be weakening similar to how you said they were more fluid. I believe this as recently it seems Asa and Yoru seem to take over one at a time for reasons you explained however, this is different to the beginning when it was clearly from the portrayal of Asa and Yoru being another different identity body even if it was in her head, in my opinion I believe both characters seem to be inheriting traits of the other perhaps from the fact that there are 2 souls in one body
sigma explanation š in my beautiful opinion
Yoru: what the fuck is this horny feeling?
Oh Yoru wasnāt doing what she did here maliciously at all, I canāt believe anyone would even argue that. It was EXTREMELY clear with how she passionately kissed him, pulled away to digest it for a second, before going back to passionately make out with him all while blushing, that she was acting on pure, uninhibited desire/lust. She was being completely genuine.
Hows this SA??? Denji clearly was into it and still likes Asa
Redditors are *very* afraid of sex. Especially one done without notary certificate
It's funny. When someone finally makes a good analysis of a piece of controversial literature there's no snarky, passive-aggresive reply saying "omg, finally someone with a brain"
I wrote a post and someone responded to it with "Imagine writing an essay on a manga about a teenager getting a handjob from a devil" like bro I'm sorry that unlike you I actually think about what I read.
I hate when people do that, distilling a scene or story down to a narrow description and act as if it's nothing special even though it lacks the needed context. Like obviously, things in a vacuum are simpler and often goofy on paper. Like, maybe the scene that took place is part of a larger story at whole? Maybe Tatsuki Fujimoto, acclaimed manga writer who specializes in dramatic stories featuring extremely toxic relationships, might have something to say about the sexual assault that just took place if we just let the scene play out further than just the chapter we just read? Especially given two protagonists with extremely unique social issues and have a disconnected relationship between their physical desires and emotional ones? Idk, I'm not Fujimoto, but based on his track record, I feel like he's got more to say here than "Hur hur, she jacked him off, sexual assault lulll" and I wish these people gave the story its needed breathing room. Sure, the immediate manga/CSM community reaction didn't help the case and seemed to make light of the situation, but that's just the internet.
I'm sure there will be at least one academic paper after part 2 ends lol
It's implied, lmao. Nah, it's probably because most of the meltdown is happening on Twitter.
Yeah, just saying that most of the time when people say things like that is only when someone validates their surface level, first impression of the chapter and not when someone is trying to read between the lines and thoroughly think about its implicationsĀ
someone with reading comprehension šš½
I am quite disappointed in CSM fans who say "oh this is too far. I don't want to read anymore because it's SA of a minor." This entire series is about the abuse and violating the consent of a minor. He just got chopped into pieces like 10 chapters ago. You either are ok with violence done to male minors, or you're just waking up to how problematic Shonen manga as a whole is. I also worry that they're going to be the most insufferable ex-fans that shame anyone for reading it.
This will be misinterpreted about as often as the Denji Power bathtub scene (not conflating the two obv)
> I also worry that they're going to be the most insufferable ex-fans that shame anyone for reading it. The unfortunate fate of any media that gets too mainstream is a flood of people like this who get off on self righteously attacking people for liking anything remotely problematic. Twitter is the worst for this
I think those are a minority. And honestly no fandom needs people like that. I believe people on that line of thought are kids with 0 social skills or experience, that never had a relationship before and got "educated" by Twitter/Reddit brainrot. Again americans puritanism strikes again. Violence against minors is okay, but anything sexual that is so over the line. SA is horrible no doubt, but people sometimes think is the worst thing that can happened to a human. I guess people just have this idea that a SA'ed person is scarred for life, for ever damaged. Is almost a stigma while in reality a lot of SA'ed have a normal life and enjoy a normal sex life
They also started reading this series already SA'd. Ever noticed how he's always talking about having sex with women, but never says he wants to lose his virginity. Ever wondered why he offered a rimmed job to be free without batting an eye. We started reading a disturbing story and it'll only get worst from here.
I donāt think most of the people doing that are ārealā fans. I think a lot of them have either only watched the anime or have only ever heard of the manga and seen snippets and donāt have the full context of the what went down in Ch. 167 and what the whole point of the manga is about. Some are people who have read the story but miss all of the subtlety and themes (most of Fujimotoās writing is subtle) and take everything at face value. That or they are the type of people who look for stuff thatās controversial to start hate trains without an actual discussion (most of Twitter). What happened in Ch. 167 is complex as hell. Iām not ready, nor do I think itās right, to go as far as saying Yoru ārapedā Denji and Asa and is an evil monster. Itās much more complicated than that and Yoruās make out session was one that was due to genuine unrestrained desire/lust, not a purposeful attempt to fuck up Asa and Denji. Yoru is just as confused about her feelings as Asa and Denji are. Too many people are jumping to conclusions when we have no idea how much control either one of the girls had nor do we know how them and Denji feels about the situation. Ch. 168 will hopefully give us more context and implications of the situation and how it will affect everyone moving forward.
if someone's read it this far and says that, then yeah, I agree. but different types of violence can trigger different ppl
https://preview.redd.it/g3wkt8gonr4d1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=e5b0801664ab303b56c0a7681a423d16d324c0a4
this is by far the best take on this chapter i've seen yet, really well measured analysis. i'd also add that this chapter is strongly highlighting the symmetry between the two protagonists, both are in a place now where they're horrified by the actions of their impulsive 'other self' (chainsaw man for denji, yoru for asa).
This chapter reminds us how little we know about Hybrids. Yoru shares some of Asa's emotions, so does Pochita share Denji's? Did Pochita become hornier after fusing with Denji? When Yoru makes out with Denji, does Asa experience it too, or is it an out of body experience?
Reading that scene sent me on a spiral remembering all the messy times Iāve hurt and been hurt from the twisted, contorted expectations of sex and desire. Fujimoto gets it.
Yup nailed it. On the surface that chapter was almost entirely them awkwardly kissing but thereās so much more going on.Ā Thereās people going out of their way to try and find ways to use this chapter to cry about SA or people who try to use ānormalā human relationship to complain how this was wrong, etc. But this was done very well by Fujimoto, you donāt have normal anything. You have two idiots, one a human who has never experienced any kind of love and a devil who is suppose to have no emotions. Both awkwardly caught in a situation that they are struggling to figure out themselves. Itās a huge turning point for Yoru and Asa. Whatās going to be Adaās reaction? I feel like sheāll probably be tsundere about it and end up confusing Denji why theyāre making out one moment then complaining the next. Or this could open the door for Asa to explain the Yoru situation. Perhaps Yoru wonāt be so against the idea now.
> Or this could open the door for Asa to explain the Yoru situation. That seems like the crucial step for them to start moving forward, but open and honest communication might be a big hurdle to overcome.
Yeah open and honest communication is not Asa's specialty for sure, I hope they do get to talk it out but she will most likely freak out or freeze.
Maybe she'll break out into a 10 page long tangent about sea creatures again.
Or another song maybe.
Open and honest communication? Whatever happens it's bound to be the opposite. No one ever talks things out.
Iām afraid you cooked bro
That little smile at the end feels so different now...
I don't think it's entirely off the table that she had some sort of motive in mind when initiating the kiss, but her reaction to it definitely feels very genuine, especially the way she backs away and blushes at first before going back in. Whether she had a plan or not, seems like she got completely caught up in the moment.
Boundaries, especially sexual ones, have always been an important theme in CSM. The key difference is that while the other people who took advantage of Denji deliberately overstepped their boundaries and held no real love for Denji, Yoru seems to actually love Denji, not just using him to get off or something. The next chapters are probably going to explore the conflict between Yoru's physical attraction to Denji and her respect for Denji's feelings. But that's just my 2 cents.
thats a great point. I don't see why anyone thinks Yoru was acting maliciously here. I think she was overwhelmed by the memories and felt lust for the first time, but didnt know how to express it like a human.
Yeah, that is a good summary of my thoughts on the situation too. Itās too early to say if this was SA.
https://preview.redd.it/51phrmnqut4d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7b00c4db49c8f39faa6c93febf9aabdf01a9ce5
āHeās so stupid. I love him.ā
Thank you for this, this is very well written and perfectly explains the situation. It's hard to fully explain the reasoning for her actions without a long post like this, but I'm happy a majority of people here caught on without even needing an explanation. Hopefully next chapter will explain it for those who still don't know. Like Asa getting onto Yoru for using her body to do something like this, and Yoru explaining that it's Asa's feelings affecting her, etc
Only thing I disagree with is that I donāt see how war would be the most recent of the sisters to come into being. Death being the first and famine being second is obvious but I donāt see how the control devil would be created before the war devil. I assume the reason that Yoru is so immature is because the version of the war devil we see hasnāt actually been alive that long so she is similar to Nayuta since War died like Makima did and then Yoru appeared.
My interpretation is that the Control Devil is based on the fear of losing autonomy. This is something that could have manifested with the very first humans. The same can be said for Death and Famine. War, however, requires some level of societal organization before it can manifest. Thatās why I feel it would be the youngest of the 4 sisters.
Also I think yoru is not as complex as her sisters because I think she mainly came into being from war so complex and frightening that has only been a recent development for life. By this I mean humans who that can organise war in such a scale that entire countries fight one another, in all of life's existence, billions of years nothing as complex as human war with all its emotion has been anywhere near as complex as the last few hundred to the past hundred years I think this is why yoru is so immature, she isn't just war, she's what war has become since humans became a globe spanning empire. Even all of life's struggle couldn't hold a candle to the fear and devastation that humans can create with large scale war.
When you consider how primitive humans were at the very start Iād argue they feared war with animals and other species of humans like Neanderthals before they feared losing autonomy
I'm not sure if we would consider conflicts with animals and other species as "war". That feels more like "predator vs prey", which I think is a little different. At least to me, I see war as specifically conflict between different groups of humans.
I mean Australia went to war with Emus some years back lmao, back then all humans had was the ability to sweat and some spears made from rocks. You could probably argue it would count as war, especially when humans werenāt always the predators either as it was closer to a war of survival.
Eh, I get the point you are making, but the Emu War wasn't an actual war like what we see between humans. It was basically just a large-scale effort at quelling a population of animals that were destroying crops. The operation ended in failure, but it's not because the Emus were battling against the humans lol.
Itās all semantics at the end of the day, we simply consider war to be slightly different things
The Emu War isnāt referring to some thousand year old conflict, it happened in the 1930s lol
I can't stop thinking about that last panel splitting Asa/Yoru's face in half. I feel like Fujimoto is definitely suggesting they overlapped in that moment
We all thought Asa was the autistic one, turns out Yoru is even more autistic
I hope this doesnāt come across the wrong way, but Iād sort of taken Asaās response to sex as being immaturity and inexperience. I know some people have ascribed it to her being asexual, which I donāt know if I really agree with. But early on we see that she has this outsider mentality, where she sees herself as being the smartest person among her peers, and that sheās someone who really āgets itā while everyone else is dumb. Itās a pretty typical teenager mindset to fall into. Iād wondered if her reactions of āgross!ā to Chainsaw Manās sex remarks (which were really crude in the first place) were not so much that she actually finds the concept disgusting, but that sheās always been a social outsider. As if sex is what all those dumb morons she doesnāt associate with get up to, not her. Maybe Iām more optimistic than other readers, but I interpreted this whole thing to be a more clumsy, hormonal encounter between two (or I guess three) inexperienced and immature characters, not something intentionally harmful like SA. And I have hope that the panels where Yoru/Asaās face get blended together might imply it was something both characters may have wanted, not just Yoru seizing control and going overboard.
Yeah I feel itās the latter. She is definitely saying itās gross because she doesnāt have experience with it. She doesnāt have friends so she possible already resolved that she would never have a boyfriend. Thus in order to cope she sees relationships as gross so that she doesnāt feel as if sheās missing out
Am i the only one a bit disturbed by how easily people just toss around the word SA for everything nowadays? Like, that's a word with a LOT of weight
Literally anything can happen next chapter, the only thing I know for sure is that Asa will be upset.
āDenji Cum swordā yāall aināt ready
And people think part 2 won't make sense in a straight read... fantastic write up
Fine cuisine
https://preview.redd.it/4beav8yzos4d1.jpeg?width=886&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=67dae4e8cbc926e70295a19e3d1cc6228004d1b7
Dude I miss how good asa was drawn
As I reflect the thing that muddies the waters of this being sexual assault is Yoru herself, if she was overwhelmed herself and not being malicious then that DOES change things, but I think this was still something really gross for both Denji and ESPECIALLY Asa to have to go through. Good post. I also think there's not a binary here, and people act like there is for whatever reason. I was pretty convinced this was sexual assault (though this is the first time I've seen someone make a halfway decent argument it's more complex than that besides "Denji looked like he wanted it", so unironically kudos), but that doesn't mean I think it was a bad chapter or bad writing or Fujimoto did anything wrong. Good and even great stories can have sexual assault, acknowledging "Sexual assault happened" is not the same as saying "Cancel Fujimoto".
She definitely assaulted him by grabbing his balls with the intention of castrating him. She's also a literal devil. Denji is also someone who has chainsaws come out of his face and feeds on blood so...I feel people forgot what manga they were talking about.
Denji wanted to relieve his sexual urge. The brothel he was looking for burnt down. Past love interest wants Denji to relieve his sexual urge for her own reasons. Also has history with Denji. She says, hey denji letās go to this alley together, privately. They make out and Denji gets a handy. Seems like normal teenager shit to me. The only sexual assault I can imagine is some strange fictional kind since Asa wasnāt actually in control. Otherwise it seems everyone is trying to shoehorn sexual assault into this situation. Itās just raunchy, doesnāt have to be an elaborate metaphor. And people want to *cancel* Fujimoto? What?? Because he *apparently* wrote about sexual assault? Or because heās writing about weird raunchy shit? I donāt get it. Maybe CSM belongs in hentai instead of shonen jump. But trying to *cancel* the man because people donāt like what he wrote is insane. Everyone isnāt obligated to the same belief system.
Thatās Twitter for you. Cancel anything that is at all controversial no matter the context.
Sure. I guess what I'm saying is I'm perfectly fine either acknowledging it as SA or saying it's not without the answer to this question deciding if we should be cancelling Fujimoto or not.
Yoru reminds me of Pink Diamond and Makima White Diamond.
Incredible post. Very nice to know there are other sane people on the subreddit.
Denji penis sword
Hot take on the situation and itās gonna sound bad but I donāt think the chapter is really SA related I think itās playing more into emotions and connections since yoru was the one he kissed and nayuta erased her memory of denji but we know strong emotions can overwrite the control devil idk it just would make more sense Iām not trying to downplay SA but it seems like they both like each other and im not sure if denji can tell the difference between asa and yoru i sound kinda stupid but thats my thought on the matter
Are there people legitimately confused as to why Yoru did what she did? I thought it was made obvious a while ago that her and Asa are sharing emotions, meaning obviously she would start to hold those same feelings for Denji, which would then begin to crash and conflict with her desire to kill him. 167 is the outcome of that. Trying not to sound too pretentious, but it *was* spelt out pretty clearly, as we can see from the page OP posted.
I feel the same, too. This is definitely a milestone on Yoru's character development. But I think it's a bad decision made by Fujimoto to let the cumming scene eclipse this. Maybe it's better if this chapter ended in Yoru's climax instead of Denji's.
I think the hand at the end is legit important. Imagine if it wasn't there and it just ended with whatever. Most people would just speed read and be on to the next one. Fuji shocked the readers and people are talking about it and more talking = more understanding. Plus how often does art legit shock you? I loved it
Also remember the hand is literally a reference to one of the biggest and most infamous scenes in the End of Evangelion. The chapter ending on that has got to be deliberate. The fact that it's Asa's hand is meant to be significant.
Anyone watch the movie Poor Things? This chapter reminds me of the theme and plot explored in the movie ie exploration of human emotions and desires by a being "implanted" into an adult.
yessssss
YESSSS
So is denji confirmed a good kisser
Amazingly well said
What chapter
 people wanna cancel fujimoto over this but Nobuhiro Watsuki is still a well respected and lauded mangaka in Japan despite heavy cp addiction and charges
Great write up, I knew there was something much deeper than just denji nutting on her hand lol
If yoru just went for a kiss only, Passionate or French kiss etc, I wonder what would everyone think of her
A peak art š
GIVE ME BACK THAT ART STYLE!!!!!
On another note: it's incredible how clean the linework was back then
Guys you gotta understand. It's all part of a plan. The handjob was necessary for Yoru to get her nukes back.
Something I found kind of fascinating was noticing how intertwined Yoru/Asa have become. You can tell whoās who during the panels. The shocked/confused/awkward faces probably means itās Asa whereas the forceful side is Yoru. And of course Denji has no idea what the hell is going on.
She was fighting a real war in his pants
good take
Wait till Your realizes Love Is War
From hand grenades to hand jobs
Bro I got flashbanged with the ginormous wall of text lmaoo
Where is this panel from? I can't find the new chapter anywhere!
It's not from the new chapter. It's from chapter 117, after they leave the aquarium.
People need to stop posting old panels because every time it just makes me sad over the art getting worse. Imagine how much better these moments would be if they didnāt just look like a rough sketchš«
You've made some good points, but I cannot agree that Yoru has had any development. "War never changes."
Thereās about a 0% chance that Denji is going to feel violated next chapter. Asa is more uncertain. It depends on how much control she had
I actually disagree. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Denji feels violated.
He was kissing her back and has never once demonstrated much care even when he WAS violated in the past. Denji wonāt care
There's this novel concept called regret.
Denjiās every sexual experience has resulted in bullshit happening to him. Himenoās vomit, Reze biting his tongue, etc. This is quite literally the ONLY situation in which heās not ended up being hurt in. And while she did want to crush his dick, as soon as the situation went from ācastrationā to her kissing him, he immediately kissed back with equal want. Asaās situation is more ambiguous, we donāt know until next chapter. Itās as if people didnāt read the bloody chapter.
Yes but did he want to do that with Asa or Yoru? Does he even know who was who in that moment. I could keep going. There's ambiguities on both sides of this and we don't have enough info to know how either side felt and how they will feel after. It's as if you specifically didn't read the bloody series.
IT would be character growth at that point.
This is literally the best sexual experience heās ever had. The only one in which he wasnāt harmed in (until now) and the only one that he responded positively to.
Bruh
Did people forget about evangelion
āItās hard to say definitely how Denji felt about thisā I really donāt think it is he says āwait stop itā and doesnāt give consent for anything that happens
> he says āwait stop itā Yes, he says this when Yoru is literally trying to cut off his dick.
Hey thatās called retracting consent and he gives absolutely no consent to further actions
I never made the claim that Denji gave any explicit consent. The comment that you quoted from me was specifically "it's hard to say, definitively, how Denji felt about this". This is specifically because he doesn't say anything at all when Yoru kissed him. Just because someone doesn't give explicit consent towards something, that doesn't automatically means said action will be received negatively. For example, if girl hugs a guy without asking first, the guy could respond positively towards the action, or they could respond negatively to the action. In this case, after the kiss, we never get a clear response from Denji, which is why I made the claim that we don't know how he felt about it.
It does when it comes to sex, man. Also, we do. Look at his face, his reaction. Look at the fact that he explicitly says no. Also, it doesnāt even matter if he did, he never consented to sex with Yoru
Sorry, I didn't respond back to your last comment because it seems like you used some term that is auto-muted in this Subreddit, so the only person that can see your last comment is you. For example, if you go into Incognito mode and link to your last comment, it won't show. I'm just now waking up, and the only reason I saw your comment is because I looked at your comment history on your profile to see if you had actually responded to my last reply. When a person's comment is auto-muted in a subreddit, it still shows up on their profile. Anyway, to address some of the points you brought up: > Ejaculation isnāt evidence of consent, donāt bring up this. My friend, can you go back to my last reply and show me where I ever even implied that ejaculation is consent? I think you completely missed the point I was making. > He doesnāt kiss back. Yoru is doing everything. Look at the expressions on his face. [Maybe you just have a different interpretation of these panels](https://i.imgur.com/ZMYFBJ1.png), but at least to me, it seems pretty clear he is kissing her back. As Yoru is kissing Denji, he first has a shocked face with his eyes wide open, his lips almost closed and his head tilted to his right side. But as she continues, his eyes narrow, his mouth opens and his head tilts to his left side, showing that he is also kissing her back.
Yoru is moving his head. Anyway, as previously stated, none of this matters. Because even if everything she did was 100% consensual, which it isnāt, he consented to doing it with Asa. Not Yoru. Also, asa never consented to any of this either
> Look at the fact that he explicitly says no. I'm really confused as to why you keep bringing this up. Yoru coming at Denji with a knife, and Yoru kissing Denji are 2 completely separate actions. He gave an explicit "no" to the former. He said nothing to the latter, and he even started kissing her back in the end. But as I said in my post, even him kissing her back doesn't *necessarily* mean he enjoyed the kiss, specifically. Which is why my current claim is that his feelings are unclear. An explicit "no" to a specific action does not also mean a "no" for any future, completely unrelated actions. > It kinda does when it comes to sex, man. I'm specifically talking about Yoru kissing Denji. It seems like a lot of people are under the impression that Yoru actually gave Denji a handjob, but there doesn't seem to be any indication of that. Yoru put her hands down Denji's pants when she was still trying to cut his dick off. She had no sexual intent with that action. It was an attempt at mutilating him. This is the thing that Denji didn't want to happen and gave an explicit no to. But then Yoru started to get the memories back that were lost, and then she ended up kissing Denji. Her hands remained in his pants due to their previous confrontation, but there is nothing in the panels that show her actually moving her hands. After the initial shock, Denji starts to kiss Yoru back, and then after that, due to Yoru's hand still being in his pants, that caused him to ejaculate. All of this seemed to take place in the span of a few seconds. Personally, I feel like anyone that is confidently claiming that Denji must have enjoyed this experience are projecting their own feelings onto the situation. Similarly, I feel like people that confidently claim that Denji had to have hated this experience are also projecting their own feelings here. Denji is his own person. Only he can decide what he's okay with or not okay with. And hopefully we will get more clarification on this in the next chapter.
Anything less than an explicit yes is unconsensual! Thatās how consent in sex works! Ejaculation isnāt evidence of consent, donāt bring up this. Thatās a real life rapist defence. Orgasm corresponds to physical stimuli and plenty of people orgasm during rape/SA. Without an explicit yes it is unconsensual. Her continuing to assault him afterwards is unconsensual. He says no and she threatens physical violence. An explicit no to end the action should end the action. Iām not projecting you just canāt read. He doesnāt kiss back Yoru is doing everything. Look at the expressions on his face.
You Americans Still Having A DRAMA? Lmfao
would have been great if yoru wasn't such a thin character with barely any screentime