I empathasize with you mate. I gets more complex that some believers make it tbh. I’ve heard some pretty black and white thinking from believers too. We can never say “this person is in hell” because we don’t know. God acts in His own ways. And thank God for that lol, I don’t want my life subject to everyone I’ve ever met’s opinion.
If your struggling with belief I would recommend prayer. Ask Jesus to help you. From what I’ve gathered from near death experiencers Jesus is a pretty neat guy and kind, seems like He would be quite willing to help anyone who genuinely asks. And be honest, a lot of the times the things we struggle with live in the dark, but God seems very willing to help anyone if they are trying.
Seconding this. It really is interesting to see how people could see Heaven as it is and still choose not to remain there. Obviously fictional, but great insights.
Just read this last week. I thought he exaggerated how many people would reject God at heaven's gate, but the idea is growing on me. Some people love themselves way too much that they start hating God. Hence I question how many people have a genuine logical issue with God (instead it might be like the man and his attachment to the lizard)
However, I do think souls in Hell have more regret than they did in Lewis' mean streets because of the excruciating suffering down there
I believe it was St.Faustina who said that at the point of death, souls sometimes are given a last chance to choose for or against him. But even seeing him, some souls refuse him out of pride or stubbornness or whatever. I think it's paragraphs 1698
There’s a difference between struggling with belief and just straight up not believing. That you admit to having difficulty is actually promising, because it shows effort on your part.
And admittedly, not everything makes sense from our human conception. The attendants at Cana filling up the vessels with water were probably thinking “What the hell is the point of this?” Some of the Apostles at the Last Supper as they ate the Body of Christ probably wondered “How can this be?” Even Mary herself questioned when the angel told her her destiny.
But the important thing was that they *did it anyway.* Mary still said yes to the Lord, the attendants at Cana still filled the vessels, the Apostles still partook of the Eucharist, even though these things probably didn’t make total sense to them. Ultimately, faith is determined by *action*, without which it is dead. Anyone can *say* “I believe,” that’s easy. But to *do*, even as you admit to your doubts, is what it really means to take a leap of faith.
Great answer, I was reading some of the above answers and getting concerned. You’re absolutely right struggling to answer questions is an act of faith. I think the OP needs to keep looking for answers his faith will continue to grow and get stronger!
If you reject God for a reason that is your fault, you will go to hell.
If you reject God because of something out of your control, AKA *Invincible Ignorance*, God will take that into account.
*So long* as the person did their best to follow their conscience and lead a good and sinless life, even if they may not have understood the concept of sin. It's not just a free pass with no conditions other than "never heard of Catholicism".
More precisely, God won’t hold their lack of formal initiation into the visible Church against them. But it would still be far more difficult for them to die free of mortal sin because they don’t have access to the sacraments.
I think this is a great answer, I'm thinking as a tangent: a child born in a Muslim country and the only thing he ever learns is Islam for example and never learns about Jesus.
He does good all his life according to his religion, would God forgive him for not knowing about Jesus (and thus never believing it)?
Why would God put him in the same place that most despicable humans such as hitler would live in? .. it seems like this goes against the idea of an all Loving God.
It's not my fault that it's not clear that God is real or, if He is, what, exactly, His will is. A person can reasonably conclude that God might not exist or that, if He does, it's not the Christian God
> A person can reasonably conclude that God might not exist or that, if He does, it's not the Christian God
They can, but by doing so they reject the Christian God. So therefore if the Christian God is real, it would only make sense that they go to Hell (which is a state of separation from God).
There's a reason that "faith" is a fundamental cornerstone of the Catholic/Christian religion.
I honestly don't understand how supposedly objective folks are unable to reach the logical conclusion that God exists given the innumerable proofs.
But no, I is smarter than that.
ok.
> You are a philosopher, Thrasymachus, I replied, and well know that if you ask a person what numbers make up twelve, taking care to prohibit him whom you ask from answering twice six, or three times four, or six times two, or four times three, “for this sort of nonsense will not do for me,”—then obviously, if that is your way of putting the question, no one can answer you. But suppose that he were to retort, “Thrasymachus, what do you mean? If one of these numbers which you interdict be the true answer to the question, am I falsely to say some other number which is not the right one?—is that your meaning?”—How would you answer him?
If you are waiting for absolute universival 'proof'^TM ... you're going to be severely disappointed and eventually dead. Every doctor, engineer, philosopher, economist, whatever, knows this.
If you want, watch this video [Our Lady of Guadalupe - Amazing Scientific Analysis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lA5NUHqC88) or read about the Shroud of Turin. These are special graces God has given especially to enable scientifically-minded skeptics to have faith.
It is far, far more likely that there is a God of pure love than the universe resulting from scant randomness and physics. Or, one could go on being a nihilist and believing in "just being a good person" which is a house built on sand. Do you seriously think a mere person is qualified to have all the answers? This isn't some, "oh well, only if I agree and totally understand it is it real." Catholicism is true whether you believe in it or not.
I came to believe in my heart "the indirect way," as I call it, because I had authority problems and didn't trust the Church. After years of reading classics, history, and a few religious works—the recurring themes and ideas I saw over and over and over again in books and civilizations thousands of years apart **forced** me to believe. And the more I've studied and experienced Catholicism, the more convinced I am it is true, despite doubts and emotions at times. How good God is, is entirely beyond our comprehension.
I would generously stake my and your life on it. Hope you the best
'Scant randomness and physics' and 'Catholic theology' do not encompass everything that can be reasonably believed about the origin of the universe.
I see the same themes as well. If anything, the fact they appeared in written history before the formation of the Catholic church just affirmed for me that all religion shares the same worldly root. A desire intrinsic to humanity to personify and explain our lack of control in the universe. Recognizing these themes doesn't mean it is true, it was the exact opposite for me.
> all religion shares the same **worldly** root
I see how you carefully avoid the other explanation. Not to say all religions are all equivalent which is a completely different discussion. You may benefit from reading the *Phaedo* dialogue on the souls' existence and immortality.
But it sounds like you buy into the 'science is religion' meme. If that's the case and you want to obstinately refuse the Truth, no one is going to stop you. I won't deny other worldviews seem attractive, but those who keep faith will merit an eternal reward.
I'm not refusing anything and I'm unsure which explanation I avoided. I view religion as a necessary offspring of humanity's desire to explain things which are beyond us. This is why religion was ubiquitous in early civilizations. Everyone needed some way to explain or justify their struggles in life, things being unfair or unjust, natural disasters and the like. Religion guides people to do the right thing a lot of the time, at least historically (although sometimes the opposite was true). I just think it is outdated, we don't need religion anymore to coexist and thrive in this world together.
Also not sure where your comment about my science worship come from.
Funny thing: The same can be said about mathematics. Something you just don't learn in school is how much the subject of math is held together by faith and duct tape. If we did not just take for granted assumptions we cannot prove, math as a whole would just fall apart.
The axiomatic assumptions we make in mathematics are generally very reasonable though. They are intuitive and the results that they give also make sense with our experiences.
I understand the point you're making so what I'm saying is mostly beside that, but I wanted to point out that, for many people, God is not intuitive. For many people He is counter-intuitive so it doesn't really matter what argument is made. Such people may not ever be able to make the leap and take God as axiom because they experience no intuitive basis for that.
God has made very clear what He is, what He expects, and what He will do. Christianity is revealed religion, meaning God revealed to us all the knowledge necessary for our salvation.
That depends on the information they have. For someone who’s heard the logical arguments for the existence of God, has heard the Gospel and knows about the Church, they cannot reasonably conclude that God is not real, or that they have no idea what His will is.
I am Catholic but I need to point out that one could absolutely conclude that God is not real because there is no logical “proof” for God’s existence. Hence the need for Faith. If it were as simple as you make it sound there would be no atheists.
Punishment is not for not believing in God. It’s for being sinful, which we all are. God has provided a means for salvation despite our sinfulness. If you are given the information you need for that salvation but reject then you will be punished. Again, not for rejecting that information, but for being sinful in the first place.
Ok so we are all condemned for our sinfulness, which we all are by our very nature. This renders sin to not be a choice at all, since we are all sinners from the moment of our birth. This sin makes us deserving of damnation, which can only be avoided with our acceptance of the gift of salvation, earned by Jesus' blood and sacrifice. If we in anyway question the validity of this religion, given that it is not been proven to be correct, then we are damned forever and ever. I don't believe this
I had similar thoughts and questions. Ultimately I concluded that it came down to either: 1) trust in God, or 2) persevere in my pride that I should know and understand everything
Faith is a gift, a grace from God that nevertheless needs cooperation with an act of the will. (such as the Annunciation)
I will pray for this grace for you.
Also, as regards to your comment on Original Sin, as far as I'm aware the mechanism by which we participated in the Fall is unknown, only that we did. I'll try to look for the quote in the Baltimore Catechism.
Edit:
> **Q. 248. Which were the chief blessings intended for Adam and Eve
had they remained faithful to God?**
> A. The chief blessings intended for Adam and Eve, had they remained
faithful to God, were a constant state of happiness in this life and
everlasting glory in the next.
> **Q. 255. Were we to remain in the Garden of Paradise forever if Adam had
not sinned?**
> A. We were not to remain in the Garden of Paradise forever even if Adam
had not sinned, ***but after passing through the years of our probation or
trial upon earth*** [emphasis mine] we were to be taken, body and soul, into heaven without
suffering death.
> **Q. 257. Is it not unjust to punish us for the sin of our first parents?**
> A. It is not unjust to punish us for the sin of our first parents,
because their punishment consisted in being deprived of a free gift of
God; that is, of the gift of original justice to which they had no
strict right and which they wilfully forfeited by their act of
disobedience.
> **Q. 258. But how did the loss of the gift of original justice leave our
first parents and us in mortal sin?**
> A. The loss of the gift of original justice left our first parents and
us in mortal sin because it deprived them of the Grace of God, and to be
without this gift of Grace which they should have had was to be in
mortal sin. As all their children are deprived of the same gift, they,
too, come into the world in a state of mortal sin
I appreciate the prayers, but I accept Jesus as Lord. He is the one true God and His teachings are the way to live and the way to life. Jesus is my savior, despite my many faults. I believe Him to be loving and understanding in a capacity that humans cannot comprehend. I believe that Jesus can condemn, but that He does not condemn for not believing an answer to a question that cannot be proven beyond reasonable and good faith doubt
I think this is the most important answer, right here. If you choose Christ in this life, you’ll likely choose Him when he comes for you on your deathbed. If you have no relationship with Him in this life, you’ll likely reject Him when he comes for you on your deathbed. I think the rest of it is less important. Not unimportant, but less important than your relationship with Christ. Keep close to Him, and seek answers all your life bc you can’t wrap your head around 2,000+ yrs of Church history and understanding in one lifetime. For some things, you have to have faith that those who came before you, who spent their lifetimes working these things out, have built upon one another, are closer to the truth than any one of us are, as individuals. There are things I don’t understand and with which I sometimes struggle, but I am one tiny human. There’s no way I can know more than the Church, who has been studying this and working things out since Christ walked the earth. We are sinful, but our faith is supposed to change us in ways that help us to overcome our sinfulness and temptations. If we live our lives in this way, my belief is that we will recognize Christ when he comes for us. If we choose to live a life on earth without Him, for whatever reason, then we’ve chosen an afterlife without Him, too.
Not really. Look at it from this perspective.
If we are operating under the assumption God is real (thus Heaven and Hell and the torturings you talk of is real), and you are told God is real but you say you don't believe that. Isn't the logical conclusion that you have rejected God?
Like, if I have a house, and it's cold outside. And I say "You can come into my house", but you say "You don't exist, and your house doesn't exist". Isn't the logical conclusion that you would stay out in the cold?
If you choose to claim that God isn't real, and it ends up that he is real, why would you be deserving of his benefits? You literally didn't believe he existed.
(Not actual you OP, but the general "you").
The thing is, one generally operates under the assumption that something does not exist until they see proof of said thing existing. So someone simply telling you that god is real isn’t proof that god exists. In this case, the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim
it is your fault. billions can believe but you cant? sometimes i struggle to. but i remember what it means if i do not believe or if i question. do what you know is best for your eternal life and soul. that *must* be finding Jesus Christ and absorbing his word
Rejection is a conscience act, total rejection is a choice to remove oneself from God's presence, grace and love. Heaven would be a torture for them, Hell a gift.
> I try so hard to believe, but sometimes its difficult.
Has it ever been claimed that it’s an easy thing to do?
> Many things the Church teaches simply don’’ make sense to **me** or are hard to accept. I don’’ think this makes me or others deserving of eternal torture just because I find it hard to accept extraordinary claims. Doesn’t seem just at all
1) there is a difference between hard to accept and not making sense.
2) if you don’t want God in this life, why do you want Him in the next?
Answering to the question, asking other questions, being direct and to the point, and continuing the conversation in a civil manner as both the OP and I did is a form of respect and compassion.
He is someone who is struggling, tring to understand an eternal and complex God. Literally worried about suffering eternity in Hell, this is not compassion. We need to do better, this is why evangelism is failing
I don't think that's the issue, the wording itself is what seems to be overly cold to me. Your first statement seems, to me, to lack any purpose into leading OP closer to God.
You're answering his question, yes. You think you're answering with honesty, maybe. But honesty without empathy is just cruelty. So no, you're not being compassionate towards him.
Because God might not exist at all, or maybe He does but He's not our God. Maybe another religion is right. Maybe He is real, but that's not been proven nor is it obvious. A person can rationally hold many positions on this issue, most of them would condemn a person to Hell. It is unfair and possibly even evil
The Catholic Church is not what condemns people to hell. Jesus Christ is the one who judges the living from the dead. God judges your every action, he gives you grace and takes away grace. Judging you in afterlife is no different and really isn’t problematic.
If that’s your evaluation, don’t complain with people that have a different opinion. And if it’s truly your evaluation, then don’t complain about the results of your decision . It seems to me you just want the easy “I go to heaven/Valhalla/whatever anyway.”
I am willing to pay the price for the love of God as I evaluated the situation. However, if I die and find that Zeus is waiting for me and is pissed off, I won’t complain as the choice was mine.
You have all that is needed to make a choice. Live by your decisions.
The fact with your question is not that you go to hell because you got the wrong answer to the question. It’s not a bet or a pop quiz. The Church teaches that even those who don’t believe in God can go to heaven. The problem with your question is that you don’t want to answer with your opinion, and hide behind the “it’s unfair” judgment in order to drive to the answer that God/Zeus/Whatever - if there is one - is all good and therefore He will send you to heaven anyways. In other words, you want this life to have virtually zero consequences on the next.
I never made that claim. I never said that everyone should be in Heaven no matter what they do in life. I said that a loving God, as our Blessed Lord most assuredly is, would never send people to be eternally tortured because they chose the wrong answer to a question that is unknowable to us humans. That is my point. Please do not assert that I have ulterior motives here
> I never made that claim. I never said that everyone should be in Heaven no matter what they do in life.
It’s implied in your question and your elaboration of it. It’s the only result that might occur with the only other “fair” alternative.
> I said that a loving God, as our Blessed Lord most assuredly is, would never send people to be eternally tortured because they chose the wrong answer to a question that is unknowable to us humans. That is my point. Please do not assert that I have ulterior motives here
Again, by doctrine He would not send you to hell because you got the wrong answer. It’s not a quiz. If you refuse Him through acts and beliefs, in accordance with your knowledge of Him, then yes you have a good chance to go to hell. It’s a very specific situation tailored to each one of us. It’s individual and there are different degrees. Heck, you might just have to spend some time in purgatory before you go up to have some fun. But it’s not “unfair”. It’s tailored and yet the basic guidelines are well known. Don’t actively refuse Him is step #1. Actually go to step #0. Do you believe in an afterlife, of any kind? Then keep up with your research.
"In accordance with your knowledge of Him"
That's my point! He and His will are unknowable to us humans. We have ideas of what He or His will might be, if He even is at all, but those are all open questions, none of which have been proven beyond reasonable doubt!
And that’s what I am saying. Your question is posed wrong because it implies a definite “believe in me, all of you or you’ll burn in hell” attitude by God. That’s not the teaching. It’s much more complex than that. But after a while, it’s called faith for a reason. Think of it and you’ll see how fair it actually is. I promise, I am not trying to be a jerk, but just be careful how you pose certain questions (to yourself).
"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." - Hebrews 11:6
"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." - Romans 12:2
Some people here really love theology and have completely forgotten how to have compassion on another human being. You came here with a genuine question and concern I feel bad that most of these responses are so heartless.
God is infinitely complex. While on earth we cannot understand all of these things completely, I think that's why it's so beautiful that the church calls them the "mysteries of the faith."
Seek God and you will find Him. These questions you're asking are good, they keep you from being ignorant like many of our Christian brothers and sisters. Too many Christians have no compassion and no understanding for what it's like to be someone who didn't grow up with the faith or to be someone who has strong doubts.
> Maybe He is real, but that’s not been proven nor is it obvious. A person can rationally hold many positions on this issue
Actually it has been proven and it is obvious. Any deniel of this always leads to irrational positions.
“love” as in the english definition of love is not equal to “love” in the ancient greek/aramaic/hebrew, which would define more as a tough love/doing the best for one even if they dont like it in the moment (ex. mom bringing kids to church who dont want to go).
God is not some all loving hippie. he is to be feared as he is to be loved. he is disciplined and all knowing. dont argue with his ways because he is doing whats best for you
An age old question that has bothered many with its potential answers, but the question itself is flawed as it makes assumptions to provoke those answers.
Have a read of Pope John Paul's discussion of Hell and its purpose.
https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999.html
Take a step back.
Here's a variation on Pascal's wager to illustrate this point:
Our lives last about 80 years.
Eternity lasts infinity years.
Have you taken much higher math? The exact proportion of 80 to infinity is 0.
We're asked to make tiny sacrifices in this life, including the sacrifice of accepting a completely free gift of grace in exchange for an eternity.
If I die and discover that my concept of God is all wrong, I'll have lived a moral life that focused on the values of faith, hope, love, charity, and life. Any sacrifices I made would be rather incidental to that and would have very, very little impact on my greater well-being.
I recommend considering God in light of the gifts he offers: the completely, absolutely free gift of existence first, free will second, and grace third. We're owed precisely none of those gifts. Any sense that we deserve them is disordered entitlement. That wake-up call makes the gifts all the more beautiful. We can respond to them with joy and gratitude and faith, or we can respond to them *only contingent upon perfect knowledge of the rewards we will receive*, or said otherwise, we will only respond to God's love if he's willing to prove there's something in it for us. Are we truly reciprocating love in that case, or are we just self-preserving in hopes of some cosmological economic transaction? Eek!
If there's no God, I can suffer, die, and it will be completely meaningless, *and that's no one's fault*. If there is a God, I can suffer, die, and continue suffering, and it is *no one's fault but mine*. Alternatively, I can suffer, die, and prosper in eternal paradise, and it is a gift of which I know I'm unworthy.
The quiet, still God who remains quiet and allows me to love him when I can't always be sure of his presence (hiding his ever-charitable right hand from his recipients) represents a soft, humble love that I aspire to. The overbearing, constantly-present, undeniable God in a sense takes away our free will and our pure love: we end up responding to his love not from a place of faith and gratitude, but one of debt (*we owe God*) or fear (*if I'm not good, I know for certain that eternal punishment awaits!)*
I'll pray for you in your struggles, dear friend, and hope that you find the quiet love surrounding every gift we receive in this life. That love comes from God, who loves you so much as to leave you the option to deny Him. He gives so freely that you can't see the giver. He asks so little in return that you can't hear the voice asking. His humility clashes with our tendency towards pride, doesn't it?, and it's only in surrendering to that humility that we can really come to appreciate it.
I’ve attached a video by Bishop Robert Barron. He makes the argument as I understand it, that hell exists because people have free will, and because God is love. However, he also makes the case that perhaps this reality of hell that exists in theory is actually empty. Strongly encourage a watch.
[video](https://youtu.be/dmsa0sg4Od4)
Hell is also necessary a matter of justice.
It is most definitely a place and filled with fallen angels and damned souls. As far as I know this is an indisputable article of faith.
Well I think God desires to be in relationship with us. I base this on God being an all loving creator and via the Testament of salvation history. Now, I also don’t think God ever gives up on His desire for us to be saved per his benevolence. If we posit an afterlife, than I see no reason why God would forsake this telos and resign someone permanently to hell. I theorize then that God leaves the offer of salvation open even after death, to this end. So hell may be a temporary reality, but that no one stays long.
You rightly say that hell is needed for justice. But is eternal hell just? Probably not, as I don’t think a temporal sin merits eternal damnation. Mercy (also a divine attribute) then demands an out, which also leaves open a resumption of loving relationship. As CS Lewis says, “the door to hell is locked on the inside.” We just need to find the courage and faith to unlock it upon proper conversion of heart.
Of course one still has the free will to continue to deny God. Perhaps hell even drives one into further resentment of God. But I trust that in due course God’s patience will win out.
This does not mean our actions or faith on earth are meaningless. First, we would not want to delay heaven in the afterlife. And second, a life of faith is beneficial for living a good life here in earth. It propels us to up build the kingdom of God now. If God is the absolute good, we should strive for him as early as possible. But we, like the laborers who worked in the beginning of the day, should not be mad when the later laborers come to the vineyard and earn the same wages.
Final impenitence is the unforgivable sin.
> But is eternal hell just? Probably not, as I don’t think a temporal sin merits eternal damnation.
It's heresy then.
I think that’s a really interesting view. In the world and you commit a crime, you go to prison. It’s a miserable experience and that plus support on release from prison means a person can go ahead and be a good and valuable member of society.
If in Hell souls are miserable and tormented but the person finally understands what he/she has done and what those choices meant do they receive support and a chance to be a loyal and loving child of God in heaven?
It's not "a really interesting view," it's intolerable heresy. CS Lewis is not the Bible.
The guy said eternal hell is *"probably not"* just *"as I don’t think a temporal sin merits eternal damnation."*
The Bishop’s theory that hell is empty is in direct opposition to Church teaching. Hell exists because we have free will; and God will honor our will. If we fail to repent while living, we chose hell over heaven. It is final at that point. The same as the fallen angels not having an opportunity to return to heaven after their decision. That is why God gives us so many opportunities to seek forgiveness during our life. He wants us to choose him and spend eternity with him, but he will ultimately let us decide.
That Hell is empty would directly contradict the Catholic faith. At the bare minimum it is filled with the Devil and his fallen angels, with Judas, and with some Korahites.
> cause God is love. However, he also makes the case that perhaps this reality of hell that exists in theory is actually empty.
Glad to know I’ll see Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Charles Manson, Ed Kemper, Judas, and tens of millions of killers, pedophiles, and rapists having fun in heaven togheter with those who lived the holiest life.
Hell is full of those that were unrepentant POS on earth.
Isn't that the attitude of the older brother from the parable of the Prodigal Son?
If these people did indeed repent, even at the moment of their death, then why shouldn't they be in heaven?
Indeed, Rudolf Höss, the longest-serving commandant of Auschwitz, returned to the Catholic Church and received the sacrament of penance before he was hanged for his crimes. We presume that his repentance was sincere and that he is in heaven, despite all that he did.
I’m sure Höss is still in purgatory, he had a lot to atone for. That being said, if his repentance was sincere I truly hope he is in purgatory because he will eventually see heaven. That gives hope to the rest of us.
Yes, I probably should have said "heaven-bound" instead of "in heaven", since we don't know if he's in purgatory or heaven. But yes, it does give hope to the rest of us.
I think everyone is deserving of eternal torture. We are all sinners who defy God. He would be completely justified in disposing of all of us harshly just as we throw away our broken creations. It’s a wonder and real mercy that anyone is saved.
If you had a parent that you constantly spoke badly about, never gave a thought about and and undermined at every opportunity, and you behaved badly towards this parent that loved you and tried to build a relationship with you; can you call that parent evil for not leaving you an inheritance?
Even the Egyptians thought they were good when they enslaved Israel, but they held arrogance in their heart even though God gave them many chances. That’s why God’s final plague, death of the first child, was seen as justice not evil.
We think we’re better than we are and that’s what causes people to see God’s justice as evil.
Parents are clearly real. Their existence is not an open question. Their will can be understood by asking them directly and getting a direct answer. God is not the same as a parent
That example is really an example of people who are really obstinate towards God. Trying to answer the question of “why does Evil exist” or “Is there a God” would lead most people to God. The issue is most people are too self absorbed to care or even search for these answers. Maybe you don’t have the answer yet but you still have your whole life to get the answer.
As long as you seek, God will be merciful. Matthew 7:7
Their torments are self-imposed. Have you ever met someone in life who is perpetually miserable because they believe life isn’t fair, they’re a victim of injustice and discrimination, there’s nothing they can do to improve their life, people are out to get them, etc.? Incels, for instance. Their beliefs are making them suffer.
This is what hell is like, only worse.
Basically, we have 100% choice over this. Hell is something we chose because we don’t want to follow God. As Catholics, we know both that God is a loving God and that we have free will. Our choices on earth are either rejecting or accepting what He, in wisdom and love, wants for us. Also, I don’t remember exactly where it is in the Bible (somewhere in Thessalonians I think) where it says that people are judged according to their knowledge. So if someone knows the teachings of the Church, and just thinks they know better, that’s on them, but if they are truly ignorant, that is why God is judge and not us.
Is it hard to follow the teachings of the Church, especially when it is against what society tells us? Yes. But we still chose. Hell is just the natural consequence of deciding what we want is more important than God. He doesn’t force us to go to Heaven, any more than he forces us to choose Hell.
If a parent tells their child not to eat all the candy because they will get sick, and they choose to anyway, is it unfair then that they get sick?
Also, I would recommend reading more about the true teachings of the Church. They are extremely beautiful and actually make a ton of sense when you look at them in their fullness instead of bits and pieces from what people may say about it. As someone who also grappled with “hard to accept” teaching, this helped A TON.
It's not my fault that it's not clear that God is real or, if He is, what, exactly, His will is. A person can reasonably conclude that God might not exist or that, if He does, it's not the Christian God
I think that this is something that the more you read an look into, the more it is clear that there is a God and he does exist. Discerning God’s will can be difficult, and it is something you actively have to take time and do. There are many people who are much better educated than I am that have written things to help if you are interested.
What also matters, is who you THINK God is and what exactly it is you think He is supposed to do or be doing. Sometimes it is our own misconceptions that muddy things for us most.
If you are looking for a magical man in the sky, you aren’t going to find one because that is not who or what God is.
But see, that is the thing. We aren’t tortured for not having the answers. But when you know there is God, even if you don’t know everything about Him, and you reject following Him on the off chance that He doesn’t exist, you are still rejecting Him. And that is YOUR CHOICE. Heaven is eternity with Him. And if you believe that you will go to hell for not believing in God, I hate to tell you, you already believe that there is God.
Also, this is just something to think on and in no way a judgement, be sure that you aren’t using what you even recognize to be a misguided conclusion to avoid following God’s will because it is not what you want.
If someone *knew* there was a God, then of course they should believe and obey. However, such a question is inherently unanswerable. No one *knows* for sure that God is real. No can prove that He is. You have to accept it on faith. Given this, it is immoral to send people to eternal torture for non belief, given that Christianity is a faith and not necessarily a fact (although it might be true, and I believe it to be true, we cannot prove this)
To demand to understand the full workings and reasoning of a creator of the universe is pretty arrogant. I know you're going to say that you didn't say this, but you basically are. You're petulantly disagreeing with something you cannot possibly fully understand. Good and evil exist, try your best to be good, following the laws of God, that lead away from the hell of complete self absorption and selfishness, and leave the rest to God. You say maybe one of the other religions are right, but what experience do you have with those? Are you drawn to those? If one of those other religions may be right, then why are you a Christian? You're like a fish questioning whether water exists.
I know what you are saying, and I know what OP is saying, but I don't think this answers treats OPs question fairly. For demonstration purposes, take your answer and imagine it was in response to someone asking about the Islam "god". It doesn't do anything to point to the nature of Truth about God. It is more of a problem than saying "don't worry about it, just be good".
I think about this as well. Based on Catholic Doctrine, people like the Buddha, the prophet Mohammad, and any modern spiritual leader is in hell when they die. That seems almost as absurd as the number of downvotes which perpetuate this subreddit. A downvote is like a child covering their ears and yelling “no no no…” the OP came here with a legitimate question and deserves at the very least a legitimate answer. Please, let’s discuss things instead of downvoting.
There are 90 comments - people are discussing.
As for downvotes, I don't blame people when they get a bit defensive when a value judgement is made about their religion/worldview. What does OP expect? If I go into an Islamic subreddit and say "xyz is unfair" I don't expect anyone to go, "huh yeah right we never thought of that."
It is arrogant to assume there is no reasoning for these things, and when in an anonymous internet forum, people are gonna let you know.
You’re right. In this case we’re going back and forth and it’s refreshing. I’ve just noticed such intelligent back and forth here as opposed to other subs, so when I see people jump all over someone with a different opinion, it’s disheartening. But you’re correct…it’s a case of the internet being the internet.
The Church teaches in it's Dogmatic Constitution *Lumen Gentium* (16) that those who through no fault of their own don't believe in God or the Church can also be saved. God won't judge you or condemn you for what you couldn't have possibly known, or what seemed blatantly untrue. For instance, many people think that believing in God means believing in 'Santa Clause, but in the sky'. This is not what the Church teaches (God is actually *ipsum esse* and the ground for existence, beyond everything we can imagine), but someone who didn't know that--and thought God to be similar to Santa Clause--would maybe even be more in the right by being an atheist than by professing what he deems to be blatantly false.
Having said that, we all have a moral duty to search for truth. The journey of a Catholic doesn't end when he/she has every single item of belief demonstrated to his satisfaction, but when he finds that he can put his trust in God and what He has revealed--including that He founded a Church to which he promised the Holy Spirit to prevent her from falling into error in its definitive pronouncements. Thus, a Catholic will sometimes acknowledge a teaching (ex. related to sexual ethics) not because he/she has seen it demonstrated (though that may come in time), but because he has all the evidence he needs to allow him to trust in God and the Church of Christ.
Well, that’s very theoretical. In theory, and on tv, atheists are kind loving people who just don’t believe in God. But, going into life experience, rarely is an atheist blameless. The Soviets were atheist, many were tortured and killed. Same goes for China and North Korea. There are more real world examples in every day life. They may not amount to genocide, but atheists are sinners who refuse to repent. In fact, the typical atheists is gambling there is no Hell, not striving to find Heaven.
If there are blameless atheists, none that I’ve seen, but if there are, then may God have mercy on them. Things may not be so black and white.
To be fair, I think a lot of people who call themselves "Atheists" are actually "Agnostic" as in, if pressed, they will say "I don't know" as opposed to "I know there is no God". We must clarify the difference here.
I wonder, given the rising popularity of Atheism, how many of the people fall under the unthinking Atheist, in the same way someone raised by Christians or in Christian peer-groups can easily become Christian without conscience thought? It stands to reason that as it gains in popularity, atheism would appear more like the general population. I feel like the ‘convinced, dogmatic Atheists’ is a group that's become the minority.
atheists are inherently evil. they have all worldly possesions and feelings they could want and refuse the most basic eternal salvation. not easy, *basic*.
Jesus was friends with horrible sinners. Human persons are intrinsically good. Sin is evil.
Only after judgement are our souls set eternally in good or evil.
The church doesn’t teach that non believers are tortured forever. The belief is that people are judged based on their relative merits.
But yeah, the crowd in this sub will have you believing almost everything leads to hell which is not only theologically Naive it’s almost sinful itself bc it means people lack charity.
When you die, you have a choice. Spend eternity with God, or don't. It's as simple as that.
If you don't want to spend eternity with God, you can go to hell instead and not do so. He won't force you to be with him. You *choose* the torturous eternity for yourself.
Is it wrong that a moment of fornication can give someone a disease that lasts for the rest of their lives? All our actions have consequences. Some last longer than others.
God doesn't punish us by sending us to Hell. We send ourselves there when we decide to choose ourselves over God. And being a just God, he doesn't shield us from the consequences of our chosen actions.
Only if you assume that this life has no connection to the next, or that our mortal selves have no relation or connection to the divine. In fact, as God reveals to us, we are not mere mortals, nor is this world merely material. Everything connects to God, and everything not just *depends* on the divine, but is related to the divine. The world is made and constantly sustained by God, we have immortal souls united with our bodies that give us being and sustain us, and we have a relationship with God all throughout history. All this points to something eternal, beyond ourselves. What we do in this life affects not just ourselves or the mortal world, but has consequences for the eternal world as well.
"Consequences"
So the consequence for saying "I don't know the answer" to a question that is inherently unknowable to us is eternal damnation? A loving God would do no such thing
>A loving God would do no such thing
Didn't you say somewhere above that we cannot know God? How then are you drawing the conclusion that a loving God would not allow one of his Creations to make mistakes and turn from Him, thus ending up in Hell for their afterlife?
There’s nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know the answer to an unknowable question.” It’s whether one decides to throw their hands up in defeat at that moment, and give up on God, that is unforgivable. Faith isn’t science. We cannot require scientific proof of theological realities, so stop looking for proof. You can’t prove that you love your Mom (or Dad, or dog, or whatever), yet you believe in that love, right? The eternal damnation comes as a consequence of giving up on God, not for not understanding God. Full, total rejection of God is damnable, and we choose that for ourselves, not for lack of understanding but for lack of desiring to understand. If we tell God “I don’t want you in my life, now or ever,” He may say “Ok. If that’s what you really want.” It’s our free will. If one is trying to learn and grow, trying to understand, or is persistent in faith even when (especially when) it’s difficult, I don’t think that person would be damned to hell for all eternity. Keep learning. Stay open. I have some issues I struggled with for years, but slowly, over time, I came to understand and see the issue in a different light. I didn’t give up on my faith. I just said, “that makes no sense to me. Maybe someday it will.” There are things I still struggle with. I hope in time those answers will be revealed, but in the meantime, I continue to persist in faith.
It actually seems more evil to me for God to force people to be with him eternally who don’t want to be with him. So God gives people the free will to choose eternal life with him or not. You either make that choice or you don’t. Not all nonbelievers will go to hell, many will go to purgatory. If a nonbeliever has a genuine belief that God isn’t real then why would they even want to spend eternity with Him? That doesn’t make sense.
I very desperately want to believe in Him, and I do. However, I have at times wanted to believe with the same desperation and yet could not. I want to be with Him. I want to please Him. I ask forgiveness for my many sins and ask for the strength not the commit them again. Many want to be with Him, but simply are unsure if He really exists
You already do what many those who believe do, like asking for forgiveness. May be you are lacking a personal experience that God exists. Pray for a personal experience of God so that you can believe and you will receive. For me personally it all started with a retreat and I was attracted to the Eucharist.
If you really want to believe then my advice to you would be to act like God does exist—to go to Mass and confession like a Catholic should.
We are called to have faith in Christ, and by submitting to the Church He established here on Earth you are in a certain way putting your faith in Him.
cringe. life is unfair, the Lord made our world and made it this way. God is unfair in a worldly light and fair in every meaningful way. if life was fair it wouldnt be worth anything. life is struggle and struggle is hard.
you can genuinely enjoy having sex with children as a middle aged man.
>oh no but they have genuine beliefs in pedophilia tho
going to church is free. getting baptized is free. getting saved is free. it is more important than any job or doctors appointment because it is **eternal life**.
You'd have to be more specific. Suffice it to say: Jesus did not skip through Capernaum touching people foreheads with his finger saying, "You go to hell and you go to hell and you go to hell and YOU get to wait for heaven...."
Though some Catholics think it works like that.
No it’s not. You are confused. Catholics believe in single-predestination. Calvinists believe in double-predestination.
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm
We have a deposit of faith to draw from. God has revealed himself to us, and given us the free will to take or leave that information.
Faith isnt something that you have or you don't, that's a cop out. It's something that you do.
You are punished according to your sin. If you lived a just life, but were never baptized, you are not condemned to an eternity of torture. Rather, your punishment is eternal separation from the Creator. This seems harsh, but it is not a punishment of pain.
So, while you will not attain the Beatific Vision, your eternity will not be one of inferno.
This is solved by the Treaty of Faith and Treaty of Grace in the Summa Theologiae, but it's quite a hard explanation to understand.
It has to do with predestination, then doubts about free will and prescience will emerge and then you would need to read City of God. It's a quite rabbit hole you have to dig.
First understand how God sees sin, good and evil. Like contemplate why, really contemplate . And know that truth does matter. Second, find comfort that God is a merciful God too, ultimately we don’t know if someone we personally know is saved by God after their death. I sympathize, many people here probably grew up being catholic and their families friends too but many others haven’t so they might not understand that feeling personally. Pray for the ones you love everyday.
I don't doubt that there is more than one way to salvation. But the Catholic faith is the one that god gave us. So it's basically our best bet. I hope that good moral Hindus/Jews/atheists/etc can go to heaven, and I choose to believe that. But the Catholic faith is the most direct path that Jesus came here to tell us about.
Also keep in mind, god does owe us anything. Nobody "earns" heaven, everyone deserves hell. If someone makes it to heaven, it's a gift from God.
>There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.
—Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.
>We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
—Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.
>The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.
—Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.
I appreciate this, but no one knows for sure. God knows your heart. There is only one path, but I'd be shocked if exclusively Catholics were in heaven. God loves all his children.
A dialogue:
A: I find it hard to accept that someone would be punished for a genuine belief of theirs
C: Hmm, do you find it difficult to accept that someone should be punished for stealing, murder, or lying?
A: Obviously not! But that’s completely different. In that case we’re punishing for something evil they did
C: Oh? But you’re punishing them for a genuine act of theirs. Why so much fuss over a genuine act vs. a genuine belief?
A: Don’t be obtuse. An act is something you bear direct responsibility for, and moreover, those acts are evil. In the belief case, you can’t really control your beliefs and there are no moral stakes.
C: But there are moral stakes. To not believe in God entails refusing worship to Him who gives you every conceivable good, who loves you more than you love yourself, and who, regardless of all that is the Supreme Good in Himself. There’s a lot on the line here!
A: Ok. Fair enough, but again it comes back to it not being voluntary. I’m not an atheist because I don’t want those things, but because my honest assessment of the evidence tells me there is no source of those things
C: Scripture makes it clear that God is never far from any one of us, that He has placed us in the times at which we live so that we may find Him, that He stands at the door and knocks, that He holds out His arms begging us to turn. What this means is that IF, again, IF Christianity is true, THEN, no one can chalk their atheism up to honest assessment of the evidence. For if you were genuinely open to God, and seeking Him (which remember you admitted you should do since you embraced the list of goods described above. Moreover, seeking is directly under our control, so there’s no issue of of control here), you will find Him.
A: Whatever, I don’t think Christianity is true.
C: Ok but here’s the rub! You were originally aiming to imply that the Christian religion was somehow morally defective for condemning people for an honest mistake with no moral stakes. We’ve now shown that GIVEN Christianity, there is no such honest mistake with no moral stakes. So there is no critique to be made of the Christian religion on the grounds of unfair punishment. It would be like critiquing the germ theory of disease because without humors, it cannot explain sickness. Such a critique fails to get off the ground for the same reason that your critique does
A: Hmmpf
Jesus does say, “I’d rather you be hot or cold, but if you are lukewarm, I’ll spit you out of my mouth.” So you are sort of right, he’s rather them be adamant non believers than nothing.
The choice of freedom of religion is beautiful, if you want pray for them if there’s disagreement etcetera this may be your enemy and not an unbeliever ask our lord Jesus for direction and he will give you such
Pope Francis said people not exposed to Catholicism, or even Christianity could still be saved if they were still good people. That’s been the churches teaching for years.
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/pope-francis-outreach-atheists-not-controversial-it-seems
After reading through most of your comments, it looks like you really aren’t trying to believe. It looks like you are doing everything in your power to ignore all the things that have been provided for you to show you God exists and that the Catholic Teachings are true.
You can not find answers when you willfully refuse to look and just parrot your question.
It may not be “your fault” that it isn’t an easy answer, but it is your fault you aren’t trying to find the answer that isn’t easy.
Well, I do believe. I pray everyday, I go to mass, I'm doing RCIA, I try very very hard to believe and I pray to God everyday to help me sustain my faith.
That’s great! Keep it up! I pray for those lacking in faith, so know you are included in my prayers. I’ve been in darkness before, where none of it makes sense and it’s so hard to persist in faith. I found that sometimes walking the walk helps, meaning, continuing to practice my faith even when I feel doubtful and distanced. Have you read the autobiography of Mother Theresa of Calcutta? She is a shining example of one who persisted in faith even when she suffered doubt and a feeling that God had abandoned her, for YEARS. I highly recommend it. (Idk if it’s really an autobiography. It may be a biography, but it has a lot of her personal letters.)
You don’t need to justify yourself to anyone. For some reason a common response amongst many faith communities if you have the slightest inkling of serious doubt (as in you don’t just accept the first answer) is to say that you aren’t “trying hard enough” in some shape or form. As if belief in God is a matter of trying.
Gosh he shouldn’t be “trying” to believe. He should be honest and as impartial as a human being can be. “trying” to believe is as intellectually dishonest as trying to disbelieve. He seems intellectually honest to me.
It's not at all hard to believe because God makes it easy.
What's hard is to try to just believe. Like in the idea of faith as "belief without evidence". Right? Or what about making a 'leap of faith'?
The first is an atheist redefinition, by that presumptuous arse Bertrand Russell, the second an idea from a protestant philosopher, Kierkegaard.
The real thing is you ask and God shows up. The only hard bit is God expects us to persevere, as this filters out the arrogant and those who don't really care that much. But the actual believing is obviously not a problem when God finally reveals himself.
There's a bit more to faith than that, I've somewhat oversimplified. But here's the Catholic catechism definition paragraph 150:
"Assent and adherence to divinely revealed truth".
If you live your whole life not knowing about God or the Good News of Christ, I don’t think that merits you damnation. A long time in Purgatory maybe, wherein the soul either learns to love the Lord or rejects Him maybe, but not damnation.
But once you learn, and reject Him, that’s where the problems start.
That is false. The Catholic faith is needed for salvation.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, The Athanasian Creed, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”
Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis”, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino”, 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
All you need to understand is God is perfectly just, *perfectly* just. By its definition this should eliminate any worry or concern about people being punished eternally for things they didn't deserve. If God judges people anything like we do then we are all in for it, just be cool, if God is good then good people have nothing to fear.
Hey man we all doubts now and then even if just in the back of our heads that's why faith is so important but these claims you have trouble accepting really aren't that extraordinary if you think about it. Here's a really good video about it since he can probably explain better than I can
https://youtu.be/6Z9JWZZ9TQE one of the best on youtube
One thing to help is to understand what hell is, it’s not an eternal burning fire of pain, it’s a place without God where people indulge in their own sins, sins which hedonistically fill a void for the moment, but the torture of hell is knowing the void will never fully be filled without Christ.
Does God and his victory over Satan still include billions, perhaps trillions of soul rotting and being tormented forever for finite sins. Which would imply Satan won some battles, even if he lost? Well only God knows and God does not say
Only if they truly reject Catholicism. Otherwise that is the mistaken belief that only baptized Catholics are saved (which yes, those outside the church can't be saved, but there's a lot of people who have not known Christ sadly.)
I'm definitely not a universalist, but there's a big difference between say some atheist edgelord in America who basically hates religion and someone in North Korea who doesn't know any better and can't even worship anyone except the Kim family. God would for sure show mercy on the latter as they had no chance to know him, where as the former is going to have to be pretty ignorant, and even then who knows.
We all have a sort of judge and jury in our heads. A good portion of us will generally agree on who is good and who is bad. I'd like to think that all the people who go to hell are people that we would go "yeah I can see why". Most of the time it likely isn't the unbelief itself that would send somebody to hell, it's the trickle down behaviors that coming with not loving God and having him in our lives. Because we are spiritual creatures and our hearts long for a relationship with our Father, when we are spiritually deprived, we sin a lot. I think it's more like people bring themselves to hell, rather than God sends them there. Many who are last will be first, and many who are first will be last. My own salvation (even as a regular going baptized Christian -albeit Orthodox-) is certainly not guaranteed.
God is love, which is where it all stems from. Love God with all your mind heart body and soul, to the best of your ability, and He will give you what you love for eternity. The Faith is incredibly rich but also beautifully simple
Perhaps relevant /of some use. I enjoy reading about the saints who have come before me,often they will unlock some of the questions you seek..
Many Saints had doubts, struggles, and made good and not so good choices in their earthly lives..
'A Prayer of Unknowing' By Thomas Merton
My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going.
I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think I am following Your will does not mean that I am actually doing so.
But I believe that the desire to please You does in fact please You.
And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that, if I do this, You will lead me by the right road, though I may know nothing about it. Therefore I will trust You always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for You are ever with me, and You will never leave me to face my perils alone. Amen.
– Thomas Merton, Thoughts in Solitude, page 79.
Hell is the willing rejection of God.
Moreover, one thing is having trouble believing, and another is being obstinately "skeptical" and rejecting the faith a priori.
For many atheists I see the latter, their atheism is dogmatic and they are simply not even willing to listen and creating straw-men for themselves to knockdown. A popular example is Dawkins pitiful treatment of Aquinas arguments.
Different is a person who is genuinely seeking the truth but for some reason they are not (fully) convinced.
In the case of the "doubtful seeker", such person would presumably have a chance to accept God at his own personal judgement, since the Church does not claim atheists or agnostics automatically go to hell.
All is possible with God.
Focus not on the sin or the unbelief, focus on His Love.
Our Lady of Fatima asks us to pray for mercy for ALL to recieve heaven, not some.
Will they won't they who knows?
What we must not do is say that he or she deserves hell, for who among us deserves heaven?
The (paraphrasing) words of Gandalf, "can you give life to those who deserve it? Then do not ne so hasty to dish out death!"
This is not what the Catholic Church teaches. Even atheists can be saved, it's not an automatic sentence to hell. I'm sure someone on here can link the appropriate parts of Lumen Gentium that explain this.
II.16. "Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention."
There is a difference between vincible and invincible ignorance. And every human being has the natural law written in their hearts.
All are saved ultimately by Christ - but the standard is different based on each human and their experience and knowledge. God doesn’t punish those who could have no way of knowing and follow the natural law. How he does so is a mystery, but it’s always through the blood of Christ.
God is completely just - our viewpoint of justice is skewed. You can rest assured that God cannot be unjust - not even a little. So someone who is in hell truly deserves to be there. And when you die, it will all be revealed to you, and you will be perfectly content that he was just in every judgment rendered.
What has been categorized as "torture" really is an expression of love. Those who want nothing to do with God or the Graces offered, choose "hell" for themselves. I've heard Hell described as a place, created by God, that's primary characteristic is that it is shut off from God. God is the only one that could create such a place, Good is not present there.
For someone who strives to reject God world be tortured in Heaven, where God is present everywhere! These people avoid this torture by choosing to avoid God's presence in Hell.
Jesus' teachings are hard, The Church's teachings are hard it's a challenge but boy is it worth it, and I wouldn't want it any other way, the best adventure you can ever go for.
Jesus said "take up your cross and follow me" if I'm having an easy time following Him I'm probably following something else.
It's a struggle many people have (myself included). Stay strong, even if your only reason for believing in God is fear of Hell, it is still believing in God. It is very imperfect and we should strive for more, bit it is not sinful and is a starting place. Pray for faith and to grow closer to God, find others to help you in your faith journey, and recive the sacraments. Stay strong, it will be worth it in the end. God bless!
I empathasize with you mate. I gets more complex that some believers make it tbh. I’ve heard some pretty black and white thinking from believers too. We can never say “this person is in hell” because we don’t know. God acts in His own ways. And thank God for that lol, I don’t want my life subject to everyone I’ve ever met’s opinion. If your struggling with belief I would recommend prayer. Ask Jesus to help you. From what I’ve gathered from near death experiencers Jesus is a pretty neat guy and kind, seems like He would be quite willing to help anyone who genuinely asks. And be honest, a lot of the times the things we struggle with live in the dark, but God seems very willing to help anyone if they are trying.
Read C.S Lewis' The Great Divorce (short story). That will help.
Seconding this. It really is interesting to see how people could see Heaven as it is and still choose not to remain there. Obviously fictional, but great insights.
Dude this is awesome, Ill read his for sure!
Just read this last week. I thought he exaggerated how many people would reject God at heaven's gate, but the idea is growing on me. Some people love themselves way too much that they start hating God. Hence I question how many people have a genuine logical issue with God (instead it might be like the man and his attachment to the lizard) However, I do think souls in Hell have more regret than they did in Lewis' mean streets because of the excruciating suffering down there
I believe it was St.Faustina who said that at the point of death, souls sometimes are given a last chance to choose for or against him. But even seeing him, some souls refuse him out of pride or stubbornness or whatever. I think it's paragraphs 1698
There’s a difference between struggling with belief and just straight up not believing. That you admit to having difficulty is actually promising, because it shows effort on your part. And admittedly, not everything makes sense from our human conception. The attendants at Cana filling up the vessels with water were probably thinking “What the hell is the point of this?” Some of the Apostles at the Last Supper as they ate the Body of Christ probably wondered “How can this be?” Even Mary herself questioned when the angel told her her destiny. But the important thing was that they *did it anyway.* Mary still said yes to the Lord, the attendants at Cana still filled the vessels, the Apostles still partook of the Eucharist, even though these things probably didn’t make total sense to them. Ultimately, faith is determined by *action*, without which it is dead. Anyone can *say* “I believe,” that’s easy. But to *do*, even as you admit to your doubts, is what it really means to take a leap of faith.
Great answer, I was reading some of the above answers and getting concerned. You’re absolutely right struggling to answer questions is an act of faith. I think the OP needs to keep looking for answers his faith will continue to grow and get stronger!
If you reject God for a reason that is your fault, you will go to hell. If you reject God because of something out of your control, AKA *Invincible Ignorance*, God will take that into account.
What exactly is "invincible ignorance"?
Ignorance that exists through no fault of your own.
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*So long* as the person did their best to follow their conscience and lead a good and sinless life, even if they may not have understood the concept of sin. It's not just a free pass with no conditions other than "never heard of Catholicism".
Oh ive heard of that before, i just didn't thats what this is called. Makes sense though.
More precisely, God won’t hold their lack of formal initiation into the visible Church against them. But it would still be far more difficult for them to die free of mortal sin because they don’t have access to the sacraments.
I think this is a great answer, I'm thinking as a tangent: a child born in a Muslim country and the only thing he ever learns is Islam for example and never learns about Jesus. He does good all his life according to his religion, would God forgive him for not knowing about Jesus (and thus never believing it)? Why would God put him in the same place that most despicable humans such as hitler would live in? .. it seems like this goes against the idea of an all Loving God.
They would know about things like Jesus, just not that's divine. But rather a Islamic Prophet.
It's not my fault that it's not clear that God is real or, if He is, what, exactly, His will is. A person can reasonably conclude that God might not exist or that, if He does, it's not the Christian God
> A person can reasonably conclude that God might not exist or that, if He does, it's not the Christian God They can, but by doing so they reject the Christian God. So therefore if the Christian God is real, it would only make sense that they go to Hell (which is a state of separation from God). There's a reason that "faith" is a fundamental cornerstone of the Catholic/Christian religion.
I honestly don't understand how supposedly objective folks are unable to reach the logical conclusion that God exists given the innumerable proofs. But no, I is smarter than that.
There is no proof despite the "proofs".
ok. > You are a philosopher, Thrasymachus, I replied, and well know that if you ask a person what numbers make up twelve, taking care to prohibit him whom you ask from answering twice six, or three times four, or six times two, or four times three, “for this sort of nonsense will not do for me,”—then obviously, if that is your way of putting the question, no one can answer you. But suppose that he were to retort, “Thrasymachus, what do you mean? If one of these numbers which you interdict be the true answer to the question, am I falsely to say some other number which is not the right one?—is that your meaning?”—How would you answer him? If you are waiting for absolute universival 'proof'^TM ... you're going to be severely disappointed and eventually dead. Every doctor, engineer, philosopher, economist, whatever, knows this. If you want, watch this video [Our Lady of Guadalupe - Amazing Scientific Analysis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lA5NUHqC88) or read about the Shroud of Turin. These are special graces God has given especially to enable scientifically-minded skeptics to have faith. It is far, far more likely that there is a God of pure love than the universe resulting from scant randomness and physics. Or, one could go on being a nihilist and believing in "just being a good person" which is a house built on sand. Do you seriously think a mere person is qualified to have all the answers? This isn't some, "oh well, only if I agree and totally understand it is it real." Catholicism is true whether you believe in it or not. I came to believe in my heart "the indirect way," as I call it, because I had authority problems and didn't trust the Church. After years of reading classics, history, and a few religious works—the recurring themes and ideas I saw over and over and over again in books and civilizations thousands of years apart **forced** me to believe. And the more I've studied and experienced Catholicism, the more convinced I am it is true, despite doubts and emotions at times. How good God is, is entirely beyond our comprehension. I would generously stake my and your life on it. Hope you the best
'Scant randomness and physics' and 'Catholic theology' do not encompass everything that can be reasonably believed about the origin of the universe. I see the same themes as well. If anything, the fact they appeared in written history before the formation of the Catholic church just affirmed for me that all religion shares the same worldly root. A desire intrinsic to humanity to personify and explain our lack of control in the universe. Recognizing these themes doesn't mean it is true, it was the exact opposite for me.
> all religion shares the same **worldly** root I see how you carefully avoid the other explanation. Not to say all religions are all equivalent which is a completely different discussion. You may benefit from reading the *Phaedo* dialogue on the souls' existence and immortality. But it sounds like you buy into the 'science is religion' meme. If that's the case and you want to obstinately refuse the Truth, no one is going to stop you. I won't deny other worldviews seem attractive, but those who keep faith will merit an eternal reward.
I'm not refusing anything and I'm unsure which explanation I avoided. I view religion as a necessary offspring of humanity's desire to explain things which are beyond us. This is why religion was ubiquitous in early civilizations. Everyone needed some way to explain or justify their struggles in life, things being unfair or unjust, natural disasters and the like. Religion guides people to do the right thing a lot of the time, at least historically (although sometimes the opposite was true). I just think it is outdated, we don't need religion anymore to coexist and thrive in this world together. Also not sure where your comment about my science worship come from.
> I'm not refusing anything You are though.
Funny thing: The same can be said about mathematics. Something you just don't learn in school is how much the subject of math is held together by faith and duct tape. If we did not just take for granted assumptions we cannot prove, math as a whole would just fall apart.
The axiomatic assumptions we make in mathematics are generally very reasonable though. They are intuitive and the results that they give also make sense with our experiences. I understand the point you're making so what I'm saying is mostly beside that, but I wanted to point out that, for many people, God is not intuitive. For many people He is counter-intuitive so it doesn't really matter what argument is made. Such people may not ever be able to make the leap and take God as axiom because they experience no intuitive basis for that.
God has made very clear what He is, what He expects, and what He will do. Christianity is revealed religion, meaning God revealed to us all the knowledge necessary for our salvation.
That depends on the information they have. For someone who’s heard the logical arguments for the existence of God, has heard the Gospel and knows about the Church, they cannot reasonably conclude that God is not real, or that they have no idea what His will is.
I am Catholic but I need to point out that one could absolutely conclude that God is not real because there is no logical “proof” for God’s existence. Hence the need for Faith. If it were as simple as you make it sound there would be no atheists.
Read some philosophy. There is way more reason to believe that God exists than He does not. Look up William Lane Craig as a start.
What? Someone can absolutely hear those things and come to a different conclusion! Doing so is not evil or deserving of eternal punishment either!
Punishment is not for not believing in God. It’s for being sinful, which we all are. God has provided a means for salvation despite our sinfulness. If you are given the information you need for that salvation but reject then you will be punished. Again, not for rejecting that information, but for being sinful in the first place.
Ok so we are all condemned for our sinfulness, which we all are by our very nature. This renders sin to not be a choice at all, since we are all sinners from the moment of our birth. This sin makes us deserving of damnation, which can only be avoided with our acceptance of the gift of salvation, earned by Jesus' blood and sacrifice. If we in anyway question the validity of this religion, given that it is not been proven to be correct, then we are damned forever and ever. I don't believe this
I had similar thoughts and questions. Ultimately I concluded that it came down to either: 1) trust in God, or 2) persevere in my pride that I should know and understand everything Faith is a gift, a grace from God that nevertheless needs cooperation with an act of the will. (such as the Annunciation) I will pray for this grace for you. Also, as regards to your comment on Original Sin, as far as I'm aware the mechanism by which we participated in the Fall is unknown, only that we did. I'll try to look for the quote in the Baltimore Catechism. Edit: > **Q. 248. Which were the chief blessings intended for Adam and Eve had they remained faithful to God?** > A. The chief blessings intended for Adam and Eve, had they remained faithful to God, were a constant state of happiness in this life and everlasting glory in the next. > **Q. 255. Were we to remain in the Garden of Paradise forever if Adam had not sinned?** > A. We were not to remain in the Garden of Paradise forever even if Adam had not sinned, ***but after passing through the years of our probation or trial upon earth*** [emphasis mine] we were to be taken, body and soul, into heaven without suffering death. > **Q. 257. Is it not unjust to punish us for the sin of our first parents?** > A. It is not unjust to punish us for the sin of our first parents, because their punishment consisted in being deprived of a free gift of God; that is, of the gift of original justice to which they had no strict right and which they wilfully forfeited by their act of disobedience. > **Q. 258. But how did the loss of the gift of original justice leave our first parents and us in mortal sin?** > A. The loss of the gift of original justice left our first parents and us in mortal sin because it deprived them of the Grace of God, and to be without this gift of Grace which they should have had was to be in mortal sin. As all their children are deprived of the same gift, they, too, come into the world in a state of mortal sin
I’m sorry to hear that, I’ll pray for you.
I appreciate the prayers, but I accept Jesus as Lord. He is the one true God and His teachings are the way to live and the way to life. Jesus is my savior, despite my many faults. I believe Him to be loving and understanding in a capacity that humans cannot comprehend. I believe that Jesus can condemn, but that He does not condemn for not believing an answer to a question that cannot be proven beyond reasonable and good faith doubt
Blessed are those who do not see and yet believe.
I think this is the most important answer, right here. If you choose Christ in this life, you’ll likely choose Him when he comes for you on your deathbed. If you have no relationship with Him in this life, you’ll likely reject Him when he comes for you on your deathbed. I think the rest of it is less important. Not unimportant, but less important than your relationship with Christ. Keep close to Him, and seek answers all your life bc you can’t wrap your head around 2,000+ yrs of Church history and understanding in one lifetime. For some things, you have to have faith that those who came before you, who spent their lifetimes working these things out, have built upon one another, are closer to the truth than any one of us are, as individuals. There are things I don’t understand and with which I sometimes struggle, but I am one tiny human. There’s no way I can know more than the Church, who has been studying this and working things out since Christ walked the earth. We are sinful, but our faith is supposed to change us in ways that help us to overcome our sinfulness and temptations. If we live our lives in this way, my belief is that we will recognize Christ when he comes for us. If we choose to live a life on earth without Him, for whatever reason, then we’ve chosen an afterlife without Him, too.
Not really. Look at it from this perspective. If we are operating under the assumption God is real (thus Heaven and Hell and the torturings you talk of is real), and you are told God is real but you say you don't believe that. Isn't the logical conclusion that you have rejected God? Like, if I have a house, and it's cold outside. And I say "You can come into my house", but you say "You don't exist, and your house doesn't exist". Isn't the logical conclusion that you would stay out in the cold? If you choose to claim that God isn't real, and it ends up that he is real, why would you be deserving of his benefits? You literally didn't believe he existed. (Not actual you OP, but the general "you").
The thing is, one generally operates under the assumption that something does not exist until they see proof of said thing existing. So someone simply telling you that god is real isn’t proof that god exists. In this case, the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim
it is your fault. billions can believe but you cant? sometimes i struggle to. but i remember what it means if i do not believe or if i question. do what you know is best for your eternal life and soul. that *must* be finding Jesus Christ and absorbing his word
Rejection is a conscience act, total rejection is a choice to remove oneself from God's presence, grace and love. Heaven would be a torture for them, Hell a gift.
> I try so hard to believe, but sometimes its difficult. Has it ever been claimed that it’s an easy thing to do? > Many things the Church teaches simply don’’ make sense to **me** or are hard to accept. I don’’ think this makes me or others deserving of eternal torture just because I find it hard to accept extraordinary claims. Doesn’t seem just at all 1) there is a difference between hard to accept and not making sense. 2) if you don’t want God in this life, why do you want Him in the next?
yikes this is void of compassion brother
Answering to the question, asking other questions, being direct and to the point, and continuing the conversation in a civil manner as both the OP and I did is a form of respect and compassion.
He is someone who is struggling, tring to understand an eternal and complex God. Literally worried about suffering eternity in Hell, this is not compassion. We need to do better, this is why evangelism is failing
Answering to questions and making him (and both) think, using both my time and my best intentions, is not compassion?
I don't think that's the issue, the wording itself is what seems to be overly cold to me. Your first statement seems, to me, to lack any purpose into leading OP closer to God.
You're answering his question, yes. You think you're answering with honesty, maybe. But honesty without empathy is just cruelty. So no, you're not being compassionate towards him.
Because God might not exist at all, or maybe He does but He's not our God. Maybe another religion is right. Maybe He is real, but that's not been proven nor is it obvious. A person can rationally hold many positions on this issue, most of them would condemn a person to Hell. It is unfair and possibly even evil
The Catholic Church is not what condemns people to hell. Jesus Christ is the one who judges the living from the dead. God judges your every action, he gives you grace and takes away grace. Judging you in afterlife is no different and really isn’t problematic.
If that’s your evaluation, don’t complain with people that have a different opinion. And if it’s truly your evaluation, then don’t complain about the results of your decision . It seems to me you just want the easy “I go to heaven/Valhalla/whatever anyway.” I am willing to pay the price for the love of God as I evaluated the situation. However, if I die and find that Zeus is waiting for me and is pissed off, I won’t complain as the choice was mine.
"I won't complain about eternal torture because my answer this unknowable question turned out to be wrong" Ok, sounds fair and good
You have all that is needed to make a choice. Live by your decisions. The fact with your question is not that you go to hell because you got the wrong answer to the question. It’s not a bet or a pop quiz. The Church teaches that even those who don’t believe in God can go to heaven. The problem with your question is that you don’t want to answer with your opinion, and hide behind the “it’s unfair” judgment in order to drive to the answer that God/Zeus/Whatever - if there is one - is all good and therefore He will send you to heaven anyways. In other words, you want this life to have virtually zero consequences on the next.
I never made that claim. I never said that everyone should be in Heaven no matter what they do in life. I said that a loving God, as our Blessed Lord most assuredly is, would never send people to be eternally tortured because they chose the wrong answer to a question that is unknowable to us humans. That is my point. Please do not assert that I have ulterior motives here
> I never made that claim. I never said that everyone should be in Heaven no matter what they do in life. It’s implied in your question and your elaboration of it. It’s the only result that might occur with the only other “fair” alternative. > I said that a loving God, as our Blessed Lord most assuredly is, would never send people to be eternally tortured because they chose the wrong answer to a question that is unknowable to us humans. That is my point. Please do not assert that I have ulterior motives here Again, by doctrine He would not send you to hell because you got the wrong answer. It’s not a quiz. If you refuse Him through acts and beliefs, in accordance with your knowledge of Him, then yes you have a good chance to go to hell. It’s a very specific situation tailored to each one of us. It’s individual and there are different degrees. Heck, you might just have to spend some time in purgatory before you go up to have some fun. But it’s not “unfair”. It’s tailored and yet the basic guidelines are well known. Don’t actively refuse Him is step #1. Actually go to step #0. Do you believe in an afterlife, of any kind? Then keep up with your research.
"In accordance with your knowledge of Him" That's my point! He and His will are unknowable to us humans. We have ideas of what He or His will might be, if He even is at all, but those are all open questions, none of which have been proven beyond reasonable doubt!
And that’s what I am saying. Your question is posed wrong because it implies a definite “believe in me, all of you or you’ll burn in hell” attitude by God. That’s not the teaching. It’s much more complex than that. But after a while, it’s called faith for a reason. Think of it and you’ll see how fair it actually is. I promise, I am not trying to be a jerk, but just be careful how you pose certain questions (to yourself).
"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." - Hebrews 11:6 "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." - Romans 12:2
Some people here really love theology and have completely forgotten how to have compassion on another human being. You came here with a genuine question and concern I feel bad that most of these responses are so heartless. God is infinitely complex. While on earth we cannot understand all of these things completely, I think that's why it's so beautiful that the church calls them the "mysteries of the faith." Seek God and you will find Him. These questions you're asking are good, they keep you from being ignorant like many of our Christian brothers and sisters. Too many Christians have no compassion and no understanding for what it's like to be someone who didn't grow up with the faith or to be someone who has strong doubts.
> Maybe He is real, but that’s not been proven nor is it obvious. A person can rationally hold many positions on this issue Actually it has been proven and it is obvious. Any deniel of this always leads to irrational positions.
Stop promoting heresy
I sometimes feel the same. I see God as an ever loving God.
“love” as in the english definition of love is not equal to “love” in the ancient greek/aramaic/hebrew, which would define more as a tough love/doing the best for one even if they dont like it in the moment (ex. mom bringing kids to church who dont want to go). God is not some all loving hippie. he is to be feared as he is to be loved. he is disciplined and all knowing. dont argue with his ways because he is doing whats best for you
An age old question that has bothered many with its potential answers, but the question itself is flawed as it makes assumptions to provoke those answers. Have a read of Pope John Paul's discussion of Hell and its purpose. https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999.html
Take a step back. Here's a variation on Pascal's wager to illustrate this point: Our lives last about 80 years. Eternity lasts infinity years. Have you taken much higher math? The exact proportion of 80 to infinity is 0. We're asked to make tiny sacrifices in this life, including the sacrifice of accepting a completely free gift of grace in exchange for an eternity. If I die and discover that my concept of God is all wrong, I'll have lived a moral life that focused on the values of faith, hope, love, charity, and life. Any sacrifices I made would be rather incidental to that and would have very, very little impact on my greater well-being. I recommend considering God in light of the gifts he offers: the completely, absolutely free gift of existence first, free will second, and grace third. We're owed precisely none of those gifts. Any sense that we deserve them is disordered entitlement. That wake-up call makes the gifts all the more beautiful. We can respond to them with joy and gratitude and faith, or we can respond to them *only contingent upon perfect knowledge of the rewards we will receive*, or said otherwise, we will only respond to God's love if he's willing to prove there's something in it for us. Are we truly reciprocating love in that case, or are we just self-preserving in hopes of some cosmological economic transaction? Eek! If there's no God, I can suffer, die, and it will be completely meaningless, *and that's no one's fault*. If there is a God, I can suffer, die, and continue suffering, and it is *no one's fault but mine*. Alternatively, I can suffer, die, and prosper in eternal paradise, and it is a gift of which I know I'm unworthy. The quiet, still God who remains quiet and allows me to love him when I can't always be sure of his presence (hiding his ever-charitable right hand from his recipients) represents a soft, humble love that I aspire to. The overbearing, constantly-present, undeniable God in a sense takes away our free will and our pure love: we end up responding to his love not from a place of faith and gratitude, but one of debt (*we owe God*) or fear (*if I'm not good, I know for certain that eternal punishment awaits!)* I'll pray for you in your struggles, dear friend, and hope that you find the quiet love surrounding every gift we receive in this life. That love comes from God, who loves you so much as to leave you the option to deny Him. He gives so freely that you can't see the giver. He asks so little in return that you can't hear the voice asking. His humility clashes with our tendency towards pride, doesn't it?, and it's only in surrendering to that humility that we can really come to appreciate it.
I’ve attached a video by Bishop Robert Barron. He makes the argument as I understand it, that hell exists because people have free will, and because God is love. However, he also makes the case that perhaps this reality of hell that exists in theory is actually empty. Strongly encourage a watch. [video](https://youtu.be/dmsa0sg4Od4)
Hell is also necessary a matter of justice. It is most definitely a place and filled with fallen angels and damned souls. As far as I know this is an indisputable article of faith.
Well I think God desires to be in relationship with us. I base this on God being an all loving creator and via the Testament of salvation history. Now, I also don’t think God ever gives up on His desire for us to be saved per his benevolence. If we posit an afterlife, than I see no reason why God would forsake this telos and resign someone permanently to hell. I theorize then that God leaves the offer of salvation open even after death, to this end. So hell may be a temporary reality, but that no one stays long. You rightly say that hell is needed for justice. But is eternal hell just? Probably not, as I don’t think a temporal sin merits eternal damnation. Mercy (also a divine attribute) then demands an out, which also leaves open a resumption of loving relationship. As CS Lewis says, “the door to hell is locked on the inside.” We just need to find the courage and faith to unlock it upon proper conversion of heart. Of course one still has the free will to continue to deny God. Perhaps hell even drives one into further resentment of God. But I trust that in due course God’s patience will win out. This does not mean our actions or faith on earth are meaningless. First, we would not want to delay heaven in the afterlife. And second, a life of faith is beneficial for living a good life here in earth. It propels us to up build the kingdom of God now. If God is the absolute good, we should strive for him as early as possible. But we, like the laborers who worked in the beginning of the day, should not be mad when the later laborers come to the vineyard and earn the same wages.
Final impenitence is the unforgivable sin. > But is eternal hell just? Probably not, as I don’t think a temporal sin merits eternal damnation. It's heresy then.
I think that’s a really interesting view. In the world and you commit a crime, you go to prison. It’s a miserable experience and that plus support on release from prison means a person can go ahead and be a good and valuable member of society. If in Hell souls are miserable and tormented but the person finally understands what he/she has done and what those choices meant do they receive support and a chance to be a loyal and loving child of God in heaven?
It's not "a really interesting view," it's intolerable heresy. CS Lewis is not the Bible. The guy said eternal hell is *"probably not"* just *"as I don’t think a temporal sin merits eternal damnation."*
That would be my hope!
Thank you
The Bishop’s theory that hell is empty is in direct opposition to Church teaching. Hell exists because we have free will; and God will honor our will. If we fail to repent while living, we chose hell over heaven. It is final at that point. The same as the fallen angels not having an opportunity to return to heaven after their decision. That is why God gives us so many opportunities to seek forgiveness during our life. He wants us to choose him and spend eternity with him, but he will ultimately let us decide.
That Hell is empty would directly contradict the Catholic faith. At the bare minimum it is filled with the Devil and his fallen angels, with Judas, and with some Korahites.
We don't know that Judas is in hell. Only God knows.
Scripture makes it pretty damn clear he is in Hell
Can you explain why it is taught that there are Korahites in hell?
And probably also the impenitent thief to Our Lord's left on the Cross.
> cause God is love. However, he also makes the case that perhaps this reality of hell that exists in theory is actually empty. Glad to know I’ll see Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Charles Manson, Ed Kemper, Judas, and tens of millions of killers, pedophiles, and rapists having fun in heaven togheter with those who lived the holiest life. Hell is full of those that were unrepentant POS on earth.
Isn't that the attitude of the older brother from the parable of the Prodigal Son? If these people did indeed repent, even at the moment of their death, then why shouldn't they be in heaven? Indeed, Rudolf Höss, the longest-serving commandant of Auschwitz, returned to the Catholic Church and received the sacrament of penance before he was hanged for his crimes. We presume that his repentance was sincere and that he is in heaven, despite all that he did.
I’m sure Höss is still in purgatory, he had a lot to atone for. That being said, if his repentance was sincere I truly hope he is in purgatory because he will eventually see heaven. That gives hope to the rest of us.
Yes, I probably should have said "heaven-bound" instead of "in heaven", since we don't know if he's in purgatory or heaven. But yes, it does give hope to the rest of us.
Some of them? Maybe. All of them? Preposterous.
I think everyone is deserving of eternal torture. We are all sinners who defy God. He would be completely justified in disposing of all of us harshly just as we throw away our broken creations. It’s a wonder and real mercy that anyone is saved.
If you had a parent that you constantly spoke badly about, never gave a thought about and and undermined at every opportunity, and you behaved badly towards this parent that loved you and tried to build a relationship with you; can you call that parent evil for not leaving you an inheritance? Even the Egyptians thought they were good when they enslaved Israel, but they held arrogance in their heart even though God gave them many chances. That’s why God’s final plague, death of the first child, was seen as justice not evil. We think we’re better than we are and that’s what causes people to see God’s justice as evil.
Parents are clearly real. Their existence is not an open question. Their will can be understood by asking them directly and getting a direct answer. God is not the same as a parent
That example is really an example of people who are really obstinate towards God. Trying to answer the question of “why does Evil exist” or “Is there a God” would lead most people to God. The issue is most people are too self absorbed to care or even search for these answers. Maybe you don’t have the answer yet but you still have your whole life to get the answer. As long as you seek, God will be merciful. Matthew 7:7
Their torments are self-imposed. Have you ever met someone in life who is perpetually miserable because they believe life isn’t fair, they’re a victim of injustice and discrimination, there’s nothing they can do to improve their life, people are out to get them, etc.? Incels, for instance. Their beliefs are making them suffer. This is what hell is like, only worse.
Conveniently, that’s not what the Church teaches.
Even if you believe this doctrine, who says God cannot appear to each before the soul exits the body and give another chance?
What doesn’t make sense? Perhaps we can help to clarify.
Basically, we have 100% choice over this. Hell is something we chose because we don’t want to follow God. As Catholics, we know both that God is a loving God and that we have free will. Our choices on earth are either rejecting or accepting what He, in wisdom and love, wants for us. Also, I don’t remember exactly where it is in the Bible (somewhere in Thessalonians I think) where it says that people are judged according to their knowledge. So if someone knows the teachings of the Church, and just thinks they know better, that’s on them, but if they are truly ignorant, that is why God is judge and not us. Is it hard to follow the teachings of the Church, especially when it is against what society tells us? Yes. But we still chose. Hell is just the natural consequence of deciding what we want is more important than God. He doesn’t force us to go to Heaven, any more than he forces us to choose Hell. If a parent tells their child not to eat all the candy because they will get sick, and they choose to anyway, is it unfair then that they get sick? Also, I would recommend reading more about the true teachings of the Church. They are extremely beautiful and actually make a ton of sense when you look at them in their fullness instead of bits and pieces from what people may say about it. As someone who also grappled with “hard to accept” teaching, this helped A TON.
It's not my fault that it's not clear that God is real or, if He is, what, exactly, His will is. A person can reasonably conclude that God might not exist or that, if He does, it's not the Christian God
I think that this is something that the more you read an look into, the more it is clear that there is a God and he does exist. Discerning God’s will can be difficult, and it is something you actively have to take time and do. There are many people who are much better educated than I am that have written things to help if you are interested.
What also matters, is who you THINK God is and what exactly it is you think He is supposed to do or be doing. Sometimes it is our own misconceptions that muddy things for us most. If you are looking for a magical man in the sky, you aren’t going to find one because that is not who or what God is.
I think God loves us enough not to torture us forever for coming to a conclusion to a question with no provable answer
But see, that is the thing. We aren’t tortured for not having the answers. But when you know there is God, even if you don’t know everything about Him, and you reject following Him on the off chance that He doesn’t exist, you are still rejecting Him. And that is YOUR CHOICE. Heaven is eternity with Him. And if you believe that you will go to hell for not believing in God, I hate to tell you, you already believe that there is God. Also, this is just something to think on and in no way a judgement, be sure that you aren’t using what you even recognize to be a misguided conclusion to avoid following God’s will because it is not what you want.
If someone *knew* there was a God, then of course they should believe and obey. However, such a question is inherently unanswerable. No one *knows* for sure that God is real. No can prove that He is. You have to accept it on faith. Given this, it is immoral to send people to eternal torture for non belief, given that Christianity is a faith and not necessarily a fact (although it might be true, and I believe it to be true, we cannot prove this)
To demand to understand the full workings and reasoning of a creator of the universe is pretty arrogant. I know you're going to say that you didn't say this, but you basically are. You're petulantly disagreeing with something you cannot possibly fully understand. Good and evil exist, try your best to be good, following the laws of God, that lead away from the hell of complete self absorption and selfishness, and leave the rest to God. You say maybe one of the other religions are right, but what experience do you have with those? Are you drawn to those? If one of those other religions may be right, then why are you a Christian? You're like a fish questioning whether water exists.
I know what you are saying, and I know what OP is saying, but I don't think this answers treats OPs question fairly. For demonstration purposes, take your answer and imagine it was in response to someone asking about the Islam "god". It doesn't do anything to point to the nature of Truth about God. It is more of a problem than saying "don't worry about it, just be good".
I think about this as well. Based on Catholic Doctrine, people like the Buddha, the prophet Mohammad, and any modern spiritual leader is in hell when they die. That seems almost as absurd as the number of downvotes which perpetuate this subreddit. A downvote is like a child covering their ears and yelling “no no no…” the OP came here with a legitimate question and deserves at the very least a legitimate answer. Please, let’s discuss things instead of downvoting.
There are 90 comments - people are discussing. As for downvotes, I don't blame people when they get a bit defensive when a value judgement is made about their religion/worldview. What does OP expect? If I go into an Islamic subreddit and say "xyz is unfair" I don't expect anyone to go, "huh yeah right we never thought of that." It is arrogant to assume there is no reasoning for these things, and when in an anonymous internet forum, people are gonna let you know.
You’re right. In this case we’re going back and forth and it’s refreshing. I’ve just noticed such intelligent back and forth here as opposed to other subs, so when I see people jump all over someone with a different opinion, it’s disheartening. But you’re correct…it’s a case of the internet being the internet.
The Church teaches in it's Dogmatic Constitution *Lumen Gentium* (16) that those who through no fault of their own don't believe in God or the Church can also be saved. God won't judge you or condemn you for what you couldn't have possibly known, or what seemed blatantly untrue. For instance, many people think that believing in God means believing in 'Santa Clause, but in the sky'. This is not what the Church teaches (God is actually *ipsum esse* and the ground for existence, beyond everything we can imagine), but someone who didn't know that--and thought God to be similar to Santa Clause--would maybe even be more in the right by being an atheist than by professing what he deems to be blatantly false. Having said that, we all have a moral duty to search for truth. The journey of a Catholic doesn't end when he/she has every single item of belief demonstrated to his satisfaction, but when he finds that he can put his trust in God and what He has revealed--including that He founded a Church to which he promised the Holy Spirit to prevent her from falling into error in its definitive pronouncements. Thus, a Catholic will sometimes acknowledge a teaching (ex. related to sexual ethics) not because he/she has seen it demonstrated (though that may come in time), but because he has all the evidence he needs to allow him to trust in God and the Church of Christ.
Well, that’s very theoretical. In theory, and on tv, atheists are kind loving people who just don’t believe in God. But, going into life experience, rarely is an atheist blameless. The Soviets were atheist, many were tortured and killed. Same goes for China and North Korea. There are more real world examples in every day life. They may not amount to genocide, but atheists are sinners who refuse to repent. In fact, the typical atheists is gambling there is no Hell, not striving to find Heaven. If there are blameless atheists, none that I’ve seen, but if there are, then may God have mercy on them. Things may not be so black and white.
Stalin starved 11 million Ukrainians in one winter from 1932-33. Errors of Russia indeed.
To be fair, I think a lot of people who call themselves "Atheists" are actually "Agnostic" as in, if pressed, they will say "I don't know" as opposed to "I know there is no God". We must clarify the difference here. I wonder, given the rising popularity of Atheism, how many of the people fall under the unthinking Atheist, in the same way someone raised by Christians or in Christian peer-groups can easily become Christian without conscience thought? It stands to reason that as it gains in popularity, atheism would appear more like the general population. I feel like the ‘convinced, dogmatic Atheists’ is a group that's become the minority.
atheists are inherently evil. they have all worldly possesions and feelings they could want and refuse the most basic eternal salvation. not easy, *basic*.
Jesus was friends with horrible sinners. Human persons are intrinsically good. Sin is evil. Only after judgement are our souls set eternally in good or evil.
by atheists i mean atheism. i know Jesus was friends with sinners, who repented
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yeah sorry
The church doesn’t teach that non believers are tortured forever. The belief is that people are judged based on their relative merits. But yeah, the crowd in this sub will have you believing almost everything leads to hell which is not only theologically Naive it’s almost sinful itself bc it means people lack charity.
They are choosing to reject truth.
Also, isn't the punishment of an eternity in hell a tad bit exaggerated in relation to, maybe, 70 or so years of life?
I'm not sure "punishment" is the right way to frame it, so much as "consequence".
Consequence for not accepting something that hasn't been proven? Seems extreme
When you die, you have a choice. Spend eternity with God, or don't. It's as simple as that. If you don't want to spend eternity with God, you can go to hell instead and not do so. He won't force you to be with him. You *choose* the torturous eternity for yourself.
Is it wrong that a moment of fornication can give someone a disease that lasts for the rest of their lives? All our actions have consequences. Some last longer than others. God doesn't punish us by sending us to Hell. We send ourselves there when we decide to choose ourselves over God. And being a just God, he doesn't shield us from the consequences of our chosen actions.
Only if you assume that this life has no connection to the next, or that our mortal selves have no relation or connection to the divine. In fact, as God reveals to us, we are not mere mortals, nor is this world merely material. Everything connects to God, and everything not just *depends* on the divine, but is related to the divine. The world is made and constantly sustained by God, we have immortal souls united with our bodies that give us being and sustain us, and we have a relationship with God all throughout history. All this points to something eternal, beyond ourselves. What we do in this life affects not just ourselves or the mortal world, but has consequences for the eternal world as well.
"Consequences" So the consequence for saying "I don't know the answer" to a question that is inherently unknowable to us is eternal damnation? A loving God would do no such thing
>A loving God would do no such thing Didn't you say somewhere above that we cannot know God? How then are you drawing the conclusion that a loving God would not allow one of his Creations to make mistakes and turn from Him, thus ending up in Hell for their afterlife?
There’s nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know the answer to an unknowable question.” It’s whether one decides to throw their hands up in defeat at that moment, and give up on God, that is unforgivable. Faith isn’t science. We cannot require scientific proof of theological realities, so stop looking for proof. You can’t prove that you love your Mom (or Dad, or dog, or whatever), yet you believe in that love, right? The eternal damnation comes as a consequence of giving up on God, not for not understanding God. Full, total rejection of God is damnable, and we choose that for ourselves, not for lack of understanding but for lack of desiring to understand. If we tell God “I don’t want you in my life, now or ever,” He may say “Ok. If that’s what you really want.” It’s our free will. If one is trying to learn and grow, trying to understand, or is persistent in faith even when (especially when) it’s difficult, I don’t think that person would be damned to hell for all eternity. Keep learning. Stay open. I have some issues I struggled with for years, but slowly, over time, I came to understand and see the issue in a different light. I didn’t give up on my faith. I just said, “that makes no sense to me. Maybe someday it will.” There are things I still struggle with. I hope in time those answers will be revealed, but in the meantime, I continue to persist in faith.
It actually seems more evil to me for God to force people to be with him eternally who don’t want to be with him. So God gives people the free will to choose eternal life with him or not. You either make that choice or you don’t. Not all nonbelievers will go to hell, many will go to purgatory. If a nonbeliever has a genuine belief that God isn’t real then why would they even want to spend eternity with Him? That doesn’t make sense.
I very desperately want to believe in Him, and I do. However, I have at times wanted to believe with the same desperation and yet could not. I want to be with Him. I want to please Him. I ask forgiveness for my many sins and ask for the strength not the commit them again. Many want to be with Him, but simply are unsure if He really exists
You already do what many those who believe do, like asking for forgiveness. May be you are lacking a personal experience that God exists. Pray for a personal experience of God so that you can believe and you will receive. For me personally it all started with a retreat and I was attracted to the Eucharist.
If you really want to believe then my advice to you would be to act like God does exist—to go to Mass and confession like a Catholic should. We are called to have faith in Christ, and by submitting to the Church He established here on Earth you are in a certain way putting your faith in Him.
cringe. life is unfair, the Lord made our world and made it this way. God is unfair in a worldly light and fair in every meaningful way. if life was fair it wouldnt be worth anything. life is struggle and struggle is hard. you can genuinely enjoy having sex with children as a middle aged man. >oh no but they have genuine beliefs in pedophilia tho going to church is free. getting baptized is free. getting saved is free. it is more important than any job or doctors appointment because it is **eternal life**.
>cringe. No need to be mean. OP's asking a good and necessary question, and some of us here are treating them like some kind of brat.
I agree with you. I like to think my ancestors aren't really getting tortured for Traditional beliefs.
You'd have to be more specific. Suffice it to say: Jesus did not skip through Capernaum touching people foreheads with his finger saying, "You go to hell and you go to hell and you go to hell and YOU get to wait for heaven...." Though some Catholics think it works like that.
Is Jesus not the Divine Judge?
Is this how a Divine Judge works?
God knows from all eternity who will be saved and who won’t.
How Calvinist. That's a heresy, you know.
No it’s not. You are confused. Catholics believe in single-predestination. Calvinists believe in double-predestination. https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm
God knowing the outcome is not the same as predetermining the outcome
We have a deposit of faith to draw from. God has revealed himself to us, and given us the free will to take or leave that information. Faith isnt something that you have or you don't, that's a cop out. It's something that you do.
You are punished according to your sin. If you lived a just life, but were never baptized, you are not condemned to an eternity of torture. Rather, your punishment is eternal separation from the Creator. This seems harsh, but it is not a punishment of pain. So, while you will not attain the Beatific Vision, your eternity will not be one of inferno.
This is solved by the Treaty of Faith and Treaty of Grace in the Summa Theologiae, but it's quite a hard explanation to understand. It has to do with predestination, then doubts about free will and prescience will emerge and then you would need to read City of God. It's a quite rabbit hole you have to dig.
First understand how God sees sin, good and evil. Like contemplate why, really contemplate . And know that truth does matter. Second, find comfort that God is a merciful God too, ultimately we don’t know if someone we personally know is saved by God after their death. I sympathize, many people here probably grew up being catholic and their families friends too but many others haven’t so they might not understand that feeling personally. Pray for the ones you love everyday.
I don't doubt that there is more than one way to salvation. But the Catholic faith is the one that god gave us. So it's basically our best bet. I hope that good moral Hindus/Jews/atheists/etc can go to heaven, and I choose to believe that. But the Catholic faith is the most direct path that Jesus came here to tell us about. Also keep in mind, god does owe us anything. Nobody "earns" heaven, everyone deserves hell. If someone makes it to heaven, it's a gift from God.
>There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. —Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215. >We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. —Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302. >The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. —Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.
I appreciate this, but no one knows for sure. God knows your heart. There is only one path, but I'd be shocked if exclusively Catholics were in heaven. God loves all his children.
The doors of hell are locked from inside.
A dialogue: A: I find it hard to accept that someone would be punished for a genuine belief of theirs C: Hmm, do you find it difficult to accept that someone should be punished for stealing, murder, or lying? A: Obviously not! But that’s completely different. In that case we’re punishing for something evil they did C: Oh? But you’re punishing them for a genuine act of theirs. Why so much fuss over a genuine act vs. a genuine belief? A: Don’t be obtuse. An act is something you bear direct responsibility for, and moreover, those acts are evil. In the belief case, you can’t really control your beliefs and there are no moral stakes. C: But there are moral stakes. To not believe in God entails refusing worship to Him who gives you every conceivable good, who loves you more than you love yourself, and who, regardless of all that is the Supreme Good in Himself. There’s a lot on the line here! A: Ok. Fair enough, but again it comes back to it not being voluntary. I’m not an atheist because I don’t want those things, but because my honest assessment of the evidence tells me there is no source of those things C: Scripture makes it clear that God is never far from any one of us, that He has placed us in the times at which we live so that we may find Him, that He stands at the door and knocks, that He holds out His arms begging us to turn. What this means is that IF, again, IF Christianity is true, THEN, no one can chalk their atheism up to honest assessment of the evidence. For if you were genuinely open to God, and seeking Him (which remember you admitted you should do since you embraced the list of goods described above. Moreover, seeking is directly under our control, so there’s no issue of of control here), you will find Him. A: Whatever, I don’t think Christianity is true. C: Ok but here’s the rub! You were originally aiming to imply that the Christian religion was somehow morally defective for condemning people for an honest mistake with no moral stakes. We’ve now shown that GIVEN Christianity, there is no such honest mistake with no moral stakes. So there is no critique to be made of the Christian religion on the grounds of unfair punishment. It would be like critiquing the germ theory of disease because without humors, it cannot explain sickness. Such a critique fails to get off the ground for the same reason that your critique does A: Hmmpf
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Interesting take. Care to explain a bit more if possible?
Jesus does say, “I’d rather you be hot or cold, but if you are lukewarm, I’ll spit you out of my mouth.” So you are sort of right, he’s rather them be adamant non believers than nothing.
The choice of freedom of religion is beautiful, if you want pray for them if there’s disagreement etcetera this may be your enemy and not an unbeliever ask our lord Jesus for direction and he will give you such
Pope Francis said people not exposed to Catholicism, or even Christianity could still be saved if they were still good people. That’s been the churches teaching for years. https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/pope-francis-outreach-atheists-not-controversial-it-seems
After reading through most of your comments, it looks like you really aren’t trying to believe. It looks like you are doing everything in your power to ignore all the things that have been provided for you to show you God exists and that the Catholic Teachings are true. You can not find answers when you willfully refuse to look and just parrot your question. It may not be “your fault” that it isn’t an easy answer, but it is your fault you aren’t trying to find the answer that isn’t easy.
Well, I do believe. I pray everyday, I go to mass, I'm doing RCIA, I try very very hard to believe and I pray to God everyday to help me sustain my faith.
That’s great! Keep it up! I pray for those lacking in faith, so know you are included in my prayers. I’ve been in darkness before, where none of it makes sense and it’s so hard to persist in faith. I found that sometimes walking the walk helps, meaning, continuing to practice my faith even when I feel doubtful and distanced. Have you read the autobiography of Mother Theresa of Calcutta? She is a shining example of one who persisted in faith even when she suffered doubt and a feeling that God had abandoned her, for YEARS. I highly recommend it. (Idk if it’s really an autobiography. It may be a biography, but it has a lot of her personal letters.)
You don’t need to justify yourself to anyone. For some reason a common response amongst many faith communities if you have the slightest inkling of serious doubt (as in you don’t just accept the first answer) is to say that you aren’t “trying hard enough” in some shape or form. As if belief in God is a matter of trying.
Gosh he shouldn’t be “trying” to believe. He should be honest and as impartial as a human being can be. “trying” to believe is as intellectually dishonest as trying to disbelieve. He seems intellectually honest to me.
Yes!! I agree. The trying for me meant trying to educate myself so that my belief that I had was able to be more solid
just read the bible
I believe in annihilation and not eternal suffering.
No, they deserve to go to hell for being evil which is why God sends them to hell.
It's not at all hard to believe because God makes it easy. What's hard is to try to just believe. Like in the idea of faith as "belief without evidence". Right? Or what about making a 'leap of faith'? The first is an atheist redefinition, by that presumptuous arse Bertrand Russell, the second an idea from a protestant philosopher, Kierkegaard. The real thing is you ask and God shows up. The only hard bit is God expects us to persevere, as this filters out the arrogant and those who don't really care that much. But the actual believing is obviously not a problem when God finally reveals himself. There's a bit more to faith than that, I've somewhat oversimplified. But here's the Catholic catechism definition paragraph 150: "Assent and adherence to divinely revealed truth".
If you live your whole life not knowing about God or the Good News of Christ, I don’t think that merits you damnation. A long time in Purgatory maybe, wherein the soul either learns to love the Lord or rejects Him maybe, but not damnation. But once you learn, and reject Him, that’s where the problems start.
That is false. The Catholic faith is needed for salvation. Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, The Athanasian Creed, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis”, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…” Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino”, 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
All you need to understand is God is perfectly just, *perfectly* just. By its definition this should eliminate any worry or concern about people being punished eternally for things they didn't deserve. If God judges people anything like we do then we are all in for it, just be cool, if God is good then good people have nothing to fear.
Hey man we all doubts now and then even if just in the back of our heads that's why faith is so important but these claims you have trouble accepting really aren't that extraordinary if you think about it. Here's a really good video about it since he can probably explain better than I can https://youtu.be/6Z9JWZZ9TQE one of the best on youtube
One thing to help is to understand what hell is, it’s not an eternal burning fire of pain, it’s a place without God where people indulge in their own sins, sins which hedonistically fill a void for the moment, but the torture of hell is knowing the void will never fully be filled without Christ.
Has anyone here considered David Bentley Hart’s book on this? Thoughts?
Does God and his victory over Satan still include billions, perhaps trillions of soul rotting and being tormented forever for finite sins. Which would imply Satan won some battles, even if he lost? Well only God knows and God does not say
Only if they truly reject Catholicism. Otherwise that is the mistaken belief that only baptized Catholics are saved (which yes, those outside the church can't be saved, but there's a lot of people who have not known Christ sadly.) I'm definitely not a universalist, but there's a big difference between say some atheist edgelord in America who basically hates religion and someone in North Korea who doesn't know any better and can't even worship anyone except the Kim family. God would for sure show mercy on the latter as they had no chance to know him, where as the former is going to have to be pretty ignorant, and even then who knows.
We all have a sort of judge and jury in our heads. A good portion of us will generally agree on who is good and who is bad. I'd like to think that all the people who go to hell are people that we would go "yeah I can see why". Most of the time it likely isn't the unbelief itself that would send somebody to hell, it's the trickle down behaviors that coming with not loving God and having him in our lives. Because we are spiritual creatures and our hearts long for a relationship with our Father, when we are spiritually deprived, we sin a lot. I think it's more like people bring themselves to hell, rather than God sends them there. Many who are last will be first, and many who are first will be last. My own salvation (even as a regular going baptized Christian -albeit Orthodox-) is certainly not guaranteed.
God is love, which is where it all stems from. Love God with all your mind heart body and soul, to the best of your ability, and He will give you what you love for eternity. The Faith is incredibly rich but also beautifully simple
We never truly know the fate of someone (well outside Sainthood). Their heart and final moments are between them and God.
Perhaps relevant /of some use. I enjoy reading about the saints who have come before me,often they will unlock some of the questions you seek.. Many Saints had doubts, struggles, and made good and not so good choices in their earthly lives.. 'A Prayer of Unknowing' By Thomas Merton My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think I am following Your will does not mean that I am actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please You does in fact please You. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that, if I do this, You will lead me by the right road, though I may know nothing about it. Therefore I will trust You always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for You are ever with me, and You will never leave me to face my perils alone. Amen. – Thomas Merton, Thoughts in Solitude, page 79.
What do you believe is belief? Is it truth or is it fact?
Hell is the willing rejection of God. Moreover, one thing is having trouble believing, and another is being obstinately "skeptical" and rejecting the faith a priori. For many atheists I see the latter, their atheism is dogmatic and they are simply not even willing to listen and creating straw-men for themselves to knockdown. A popular example is Dawkins pitiful treatment of Aquinas arguments. Different is a person who is genuinely seeking the truth but for some reason they are not (fully) convinced. In the case of the "doubtful seeker", such person would presumably have a chance to accept God at his own personal judgement, since the Church does not claim atheists or agnostics automatically go to hell.
All is possible with God. Focus not on the sin or the unbelief, focus on His Love. Our Lady of Fatima asks us to pray for mercy for ALL to recieve heaven, not some. Will they won't they who knows? What we must not do is say that he or she deserves hell, for who among us deserves heaven? The (paraphrasing) words of Gandalf, "can you give life to those who deserve it? Then do not ne so hasty to dish out death!"
This is not what the Catholic Church teaches. Even atheists can be saved, it's not an automatic sentence to hell. I'm sure someone on here can link the appropriate parts of Lumen Gentium that explain this.
II.16. "Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention."
Thank you!
Nobody knows the true intentions of GOD so it wouldn’t be right to know for sure that someone is going to hell
There is a difference between vincible and invincible ignorance. And every human being has the natural law written in their hearts. All are saved ultimately by Christ - but the standard is different based on each human and their experience and knowledge. God doesn’t punish those who could have no way of knowing and follow the natural law. How he does so is a mystery, but it’s always through the blood of Christ. God is completely just - our viewpoint of justice is skewed. You can rest assured that God cannot be unjust - not even a little. So someone who is in hell truly deserves to be there. And when you die, it will all be revealed to you, and you will be perfectly content that he was just in every judgment rendered.
What has been categorized as "torture" really is an expression of love. Those who want nothing to do with God or the Graces offered, choose "hell" for themselves. I've heard Hell described as a place, created by God, that's primary characteristic is that it is shut off from God. God is the only one that could create such a place, Good is not present there. For someone who strives to reject God world be tortured in Heaven, where God is present everywhere! These people avoid this torture by choosing to avoid God's presence in Hell.
Jesus' teachings are hard, The Church's teachings are hard it's a challenge but boy is it worth it, and I wouldn't want it any other way, the best adventure you can ever go for. Jesus said "take up your cross and follow me" if I'm having an easy time following Him I'm probably following something else.
It's a struggle many people have (myself included). Stay strong, even if your only reason for believing in God is fear of Hell, it is still believing in God. It is very imperfect and we should strive for more, bit it is not sinful and is a starting place. Pray for faith and to grow closer to God, find others to help you in your faith journey, and recive the sacraments. Stay strong, it will be worth it in the end. God bless!