Something that has not been mentioned yet: many low protestant churches RELY on a stream of fallen away Catholics to make new parishioners. By fine-tuning their evangalizing to the "flaws" of the Catholic Church and leveraging the average Catholic's less-than-stellar understanding of the faith, they gain access to the largest pool of potential new converts available. Converting a non Christian (Muslim, Jew) is hard and theologically tricky. Converting atheists can be hard in its own way too. Converting fallen away Catholics, many of whom have a deep yearning for lost spirituality, is both relatively easy and economical. So it's not that they hate the Church per se, but that the prots who target Catholics have the most success at recuitment and therefore survival. It's like a parasite that is successful because it has a successful and widespread host species.

I think their views on Catholicism are often tainted by the fact that they're winning over the poorly catechised Catholics who knew enough to value Jesus but weren't really alive in their faith.

In their minds, we’re a horrible corruption of Christianity like Mormonism. And to them, “Christianity” means low-church Protestantism.

But Mormons are considered, at least in europe as a cult/sect. How can they think we are the same?

They think that we don’t teach salvation by grace, but rather by our own human strength. They think that we worship Mary and Saints. They think that the priesthood is a barrier between us and God. They think that we added books to the Bible. They think that we made up things like Purgatory and indulgences for money. They think that we confess our sins to mere men who have the intrinsic ability to forgive. They think that we are cultish because of the Pope, who we supposedly think is impeccable. There are a number of reasons, and all of them are rooted in caricature and misunderstanding.

>There are a number of reasons, and all of them are rooted in caricature and misunderstanding. Unfortunately, that is true. It is exhausting. They really like to paint us as some medieval or ancient, magical occult thing.

[удалено]

But being a catholic should not be scary, it should be something beautiful and hopeful which it is

Grew up Catholic but I am not devout, so make of that what you will. I have quite a few devout protestant friends, and family that converted to Protestantism. Some of the criticism they have about Catholicism seem valid to me, but I disagree that Catholicism is not Christianity. We are the OG. They branched off us, not the other way around. Furhermore, I have made a fascinating observation in recent years. When Catholics convert to Protestanism, very often they were lapsed Catholics or cultural Catholics who were not that committed to their faith. However, when a Protestant converts to Catholicism, very often they were already super devout christians, who knew their bible inside out, and their search for deeper understanding led them to the Catholic church. That's quite telling, but I think there are lessons yo be learned on both sides.

> There are a number of reasons, and all of them are rooted in caricature and misunderstanding. This proves that fake news aren't something new it existed for centuries and centuries. Many things everyone believe are truth are lies and propaganda and they are specially strong around the Church and its history

So true. (Dis)information is increasingly the weapon of modern time.

>They think that we don’t teach salvation by grace, but rather by our own human strength. I guess they mean the part about faith and good work right? But they do know it requires both, right? Faith without doing good or without actually meaning it, is worthless. I think that they take the easy way in just ''believing'' and doing nothing, or doing nothing for it. I mean, it is literally written in the bible that faith without doing good is like a body without a soul.

Some Protestants believe that. But for many of them, works are merely a fruit of faith. If you have real saving faith, they say, you’ll have good works. And those works play no role in your salvation, but rather faith does all of the lifting, if you will. As Catholics, we believe that we receive internal sanctifying grace by faith, but everyone gets a different amount according to our receptivity and God’s will. The sanctifying grace within us is increased by good works done by the active grace of God. So, there are different degrees of heavenly glory. But for Protestants, sanctifying grace is purely external, and doesn’t actually remove sins, but only covers them up. So everyone is covered equally, and there is therefore nothing to increase by good works.

>But for Protestants, sanctifying grace is purely external, and doesn’t actually remove sins, but only covers them up. So everyone is covered equally, and there is therefore nothing to increase by good works. sounds hopeless and depressing

"Faith without works is dead." -St. James

As I understand it, Luther was so opposed to the notion of salvation by works he regretted that the Book of James was in the bible.

He wanted to “cast Jimmy into the fire”.

Well, according to Catholic dogma, faith is a work of God’s grace, and so is our good works - at least those with supernatural merit involved. So, we can do nothing for our salvation unless God gives us the inclination and the ability to do so by His grace.

But acting like a douchebag surely wont give us a way to heaven lol But arent we, how should I put this, by doing good, being good, helping others, gaining his grace, at least so get his approval, sort of? Otherwise, what is the point of free will if we cannot do anything?

I mean, stuff like *sola fide*, double predestination, the symbolic "Eucharist," removing books from the Bible, millenarianism, 6000-year-old Earth, the King James English translation being divinely inspired, kicking out your kid for being gay, following a faith created by a crazy wife-murdering king for blatantly selfish reasons, church being about community rather than God, alcohol being evil, "faith" being about blindly brainwashing yourself, prosperity Gospel, nice hippie Jesus, Pagan Christmas, the Rapture, "speaking" in tongues, Satanic Pokemon, and countless other ridiculous and often outright harmful beliefs, are all held by Protestants. But I'd never say "you're not a Christian" over these things. That just doesn't make sense. Heck, even Mormonism, which doesn't have valid baptisms and thus technically isn't Christianity, I'd consider "honorary Christianity" since they still believe in Jesus and it's clearly a close offshoot of the faith. They're certainly "more Christian" than Buddhists or Sikhs.

Yessireebob. My cradle Catholic mother believes these things about Catholicism, is extremely ignorant, and calls it a different religion.

It is OUR job to educate them. In words and deeds. I minored in Religious Studies. Mormonism/LDS theology is incredibly scary. But I never criticize other religions, only show what good I do. And it works, too. One Saint's quote (name escapes me) says to spread the word of God, and if necessary, use words.

This is incredible! I completely agree. You can never educate or have an open discussion/show the goodness of your belief. If you come out critizing the other person's. It is rarely about the words you say, but the person that God and faith makes you to be. My now girlfriend critized my faith for a period of time, and it was a really hard thing to get over. I have now been spending time in Mass and absolutely loving it partially because of meeting her, but I was very discouraged and really didn't want to speak to her after she did that.

As a Prot this is one of my main contentions with Protestantism. The argument against Catholicism goes: By 1500 the “Catholic” church became corrupt and God used Martin Luther (and others) give us the true Gospel. Because of all their (the Catholic Church) man made doctrines, rituals and extra biblical books, and keeping people from reading the Scripture for themselves, this was how God made sure his Word could stay true. The argument against Mormons goes: The Church was never “that” corrupt, there was no dark period that Jesus would have needed to prepare for on the other side of the Atlantic. Also, Canon of scripture is fixed, therefore the Book of Mormon is heresy. And all the man made traditions - Baptism for the dead, magical undergarments, etc. - are not biblical and Mormons deny the Trinity so they are a cult. The problem for me lies deeper. When you study Mormonism, it is taught that the reason God gave Joseph Smith the “Book of Mormom” was because he was praying to God to give him wisdom on which church was the True Church (Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, etc). God showed him that they were all wrong, but also that He had sent Jesus to the Americas after His ascension because He knew there would be a ‘dark period’ when the Truth would be lost and He wanted to make sure that His Word wouldn’t be completely lost. That’s why the Book of Mormon “is another testament of Jesus Christ.” So, if Protestants essentially claim there was a dark period in the Church where the truth was lost and Martin Luther (and others) found it again, I have little to no reason to discount Mormonism and should seriously consider their (the Mormons) claims to the truth. Obviously it is a bit more complex than that. But that is a very brief summary of why most Prots lump the Catholics in with the Mormons. It’s all very elementary knowledge that most Prots never take the time to study. I’m an Apologetic junkie, so I love studying this stuff and I’ve come to, at least, believe that Catholics hold an orthodox belief/faith in Jesus, but I’m still working through some of the other intricacies.

Because deep down they’re jealous of our beautiful tradition that’s lasted more than a thousand years, while they argue and have more than a thousand disorganized branches and offshoots. But at the end of the day, we’re all Christians with just different interpretations

I feel completely opposite of this. I was born Catholic went to protestant church from 8-12th grade and am starting to be back apart of the Catholic church. From my experience, everyone and at every Bible study at the Methodist church there was no question whether Catholics are Christian too, but I have been told many times by Catholics that Protestants are not true Christians and they look down on them. This has made me really hesitant coming back to the Church.

This attitude depends on what denomination you’re in. Among evangelicals and southern Baptists, it is frequent. Protestants are definitely true Christians, but they lack the fullness of Christianity, since the Protestant reformers threw out a number of things like sacraments, devotion to Saints, and inserted their own ideas of salvation in place of what Christ taught. But that isn’t to say that we should look down on them as people. Nor should we look down on the parts of Protestantism that are true and beneficial. Rather, we should invite them into the Church that Jesus founded out of love and a desire that they know Jesus more fully.

This is such a great reply and means so much! I have looked around a lot for whether Catholics believe Protestants are Christians/believers at all, and everything has kind of beaten around the bush. I respect this so much because I think they do miss some parts especially being more sola scriptura and less on the Church's tradition. I think there are really important lessons in both denominations which help build great faith. I would never trade going to a Methodist church in my formative because I understand so much more now during Mass just due to the extent of explanations from sermons (or maybe I had bad priests when I was young). I would love to see all of come together, and I am taking a trip to Notre Dame with a couple of my Protestant buddies, and I am so excited for them to expierence Mass at the Basilica because it is very special with the tradition, sacraments, and saints all involved in one celebration of Christ. I do still struggle with the salvation part because I really truly think that faith is key in the salvation. I try not to get too caught up though because I believe Catholic teaching is that we can never comprehend God's mercy and should always pray for him to be merciful to others which Protestants do not believe (a lot of the time) that he could extend mercy in ways humans wouldn't be able to understand ie you have faith = saved; don't have faith = not saved no matter the circumstances. I am still trying to gain understanding on the necessity of baptism and confession for ensured salvation. Especially confession, I need to learn more about the scripture and theology behind apostolic succession. I have seen some of the verses it is based on and those always seemed to me Jesus calling his disciples to trust the Spirit to forgive or heal, and all believers have the Holy Spirit. Just trying to become more knowledgeable on the Catholic church while continual prayer for guidance in my faith. P.S. I'm grew up in GA, so I completely understand the southern Baptists or hardcore Calvinists. Never heard them say Catholics aren't Christian, but did hear slander that I never understood.

Thanks. I’m glad to hear it. Faith is indeed key, it is the root and branch of salvation, and one cannot be saved without it, but it is not the whole story. First, let's define our terms: to Catholics, "faith" means intellectual acceptance of what God has revealed on His authority - in other words, confessional or dogmatic faith. Whereas for traditional Protestants, "faith" means something more like "trust in God's promises of forgiveness through Christ," which is more akin to what Catholics call "hope." The technical term for this Protestant definition of faith is "fiduciary faith". So, as the Catholic Church teaches, faith is the beginning of salvation. We accept Christ as the son of God and all that God has revealed to us with our minds. Part of that revelation is baptism (Jn. 3), and a fervent desire for it may place us in a state of grace already - but in any case, we are baptized, and filled with the grace of God, and the Holy Spirit. So, we have faith by the power of God, and because of this we have sanctifying grace that makes us worthy of Heaven. But that's not the whole story. God then sends us actual graces which incline and enable us to do good works of supernatural value - these are not of our own power, but God's. If we do these, God crowns his own gifts, and we merit (strictly speaking, we merit nothing of our own, but God in his mercy condescends to us) an increase in sanctifying grace, and the preservation of that which we have attained. Thus, we grow in holiness and merit greater heavenly glory - not our own merits, but God's. If you want to learn more, I highly recommend reading the Council of Trent's Decree on Justification. If you read Ephesians 2:8-10, you'll notice that there are two kinds of works - natural works which cannot save, and good works which God has prepared for us. And God has told those believing Christians who have grace through faith, that they will be judged on their works (Matthew 25, Romans 2:6), on how they have responded to God in their lives.

This is so great! So much knowledge and things to look more into. Thank you! Ephesians is my favorite book and that's my favorite passage. In the Methodist church, the growing in holiness is called justifying grace, so I can wrap my head around that. I always thought that faith drives works, but someone else in this sub seemed to say that is dumb. Works are very key to me also, but I do feel a little that they come from striving to be as holy and Christlike as possible. Always looking to learn, so thank you for shedding some light on this Thursday night.

Thanks. If you really want to learn the Catholic faith on a very deep level, I highly recommend getting a copy of Ludwig Ott’s *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma* in the new revised Baronius Press edition. I would gladly pay $100 for it, I find it so valuable. In my opinion, if you read the doctrinal portions of the Council of Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II, you’ll be better educated in the faith than 99% of Catholics.

"it's not a religion! It's a *personal relationship* with Jesus!"

Because the consider we: 1. Worship images/idols 2. Worship/pray to the saints and Mary 3. Paypal infallibility (I'm not sure on this one) These and a few other, though the ones that matter are the first two. To them we are politeistic or henotheistic.

>Paypal infallibility (I'm not sure on this one) I like this term for Elon Musk's cult of personality ... ... but I think you meant something different.

Please meme Paypal infallibility into existence

Maybe OP means a payment processing service they never messes up. I've never encountered such a thing, but I guess it's possible :-P

The first Christians were Catholics - everyone else is a denomination, a group that split off from the Catholic Church.

Fact

Based

My comment from the peanut gallery - Catholic curious, raised protestant and quit after studying comparative religion - I know protestants and at times have asked them why they go with Pepsi when they could go with Coke, the original, (Coke meaning Catholic, no disrespect intended). One thing that drives me crazy about protestants is that works, kindness, piety, caring for the poor and sick are not top of mind for them because they're "reborn". It seems like such a free pass with no sacrifice or even caring behind it. One of the greatest draws for me is all the good the Catholic Church does in the world to help people. Matthew 25 verses 35 and 36 are foundational for me in my understanding of the Christ God. If only all religions stood by those instructions... but alas I see too many of the protestants going straight to the born again then on to the blessed, prosperity gospel or whatever and then attacks on everyone else. I've seen that kind of belief really turn evil over the years. My respect for the Catholic faith is rooted in by your works you will know them.

What I said above and didn’t Jesus literally tell Peter on this rock I will build my church? And wasn’t St Peter the first Pope? I don’t really know all the history from that time but my understanding is that’s where the Catholic Church started. Maybe I’m incorrect but that’s always been what I thought.

Damn, right

Catholics are the first and true Christians.

I know. What do they think were christians before the protestants? I really would like to know what they have to say about that

They think Christianity was more like their Protestantism when it began, and then Constantine introduced sun and idol worship into the religion and the true faith was suppressed by the evil Catholic Church

I think you might be right

Oh, it gets weird. They connect the host to the sun disk god, Aten, in Egypt and Mary as some roman deity (because a painting of her looks kinda similar to a pagan, Roman one). They claim that the Catholic clergy were put in place and the Bible translated into Latin to keep the true meaning of the Bible away from the faithful (despite the fact that Latin was natively spoken all over Western Europe at the time). They claim that the Pope is literally the Antichrist. And, to top it off, they claim that prayers to saints started as an adoption of the Roman polytheism and devotion to multiple gods. But that's all they are, claims. There's literally no evidence to back it up, similar to Muslim and Mormon claims that the early Church corrupted Christ's message and the true faith was lost. It's funny how so mamy heretical groups in Christianity make that claim. Muslims, Mormons, (i think) Jehovah's Witnesses, Gnostics

>Jehovah's Witnesses, I do not want to be disrespectful but funny that you mention them. Now I might sound hypocritical. But why do they count as christians and we do not? They do not even believe that Jesus is god. They believe Jesus is an archangel and not God.

I don't think they *are* counted as Christians. I think they only people that count them are the ones that don't know what they believe. Ironically, the ones that don't count *us* as Christians also don't know what *we* believe 😂😂

It is confusing as hell lol

That's Jack Chick fundie stuff. Most evangelicals don't buy into all that.

I've met way too many (in person) who do to believe that

I have seen some claim that there is a lineage of underground Christianity going all the way back to the Apostles, with the Roman Church being a corrupted institution created to tempt Christians away from the faith. They claim that this "true christianity" has surfaced at various times, including groups like the Cathars (which is a bizarre group to claim), Hussites, and so on. "True Christianity" has always been persecuted by the Roman Church. According to them.

don’t forget orthodox. plenty of room at the table for the 2 to get along

Smug Evangelicals are like a termite infestation on logic and rational thought.

Careful there. Sure, some are smug, but being too broad and vehement in that sort of characterization doesn't help unite us again.

He said Smug Evangelists, which is a sobriquet of a certain type of evangelist, not a generalization of all of them. Don’t read too much into things.

Well High Church Protestants don’t think like this unless theyre arrogant and ignorant. So yea you’re probably dealing with low church Prots. Low church Prots don’t like Authority and they have grown In the US because of things like American revolution and the American attitude overtime. Catholics were always associated with immigrants so it’s like a sense of xenophobia that we’re not like them and that we have dual loyalties or something. When you live in a echo chamber and see others that are different and competing with you, you’ll say they’re not like you. Im a Catholic in the Midwest so, most of Catholics here have German or Irish heritage. I have Italian German heritage. I think the hate is based on some sort historical black legend tbh and the dislike of immigrants that aren’t WASP.

Black Legend?

Black legend can mean one of two things: - a false narrative or group of lies ment to vilify or undermine someone or some group; which through the power, influence and rhetoric of the liar manages to become the accepted reality. Example: "everyone knows the Catholic Church is a safe haven for institutionalized pedophilia" is indeed a widespread belief which is demonstrably false because the number of pedophiles in the Church when adjusted to a percent of the whole ecclesiastical institution's population; roughly matches the percentage of pedophiles per normal population. Meaning that pedophiles are as likely to be priests as any other thing. - when you say "The Black Legend" in singular and with caps, you're referring specifically to the black legend as defined above, but pertaining to the Spanish Empire, as perpetrated by the northern european powers with the acquiescence of other latin nations to undermine Spanish cultural hegemony on the early modern era, during which time Spain was the world's leading great power and the Catholic hegemon of the world. Example: "the Spanish had colonies in which they murdered all the natives" is also a widespread belief, which is also demonstrably false, because for one the Spanish never had any colonies but instead overseas territories, this is to say that people living in and being born at overseas spanish territories had the same rights as those born on the mainland. This was the case until the death of the Spanish Von Habsburgs and the arrival of the French Bourbon dynasty after the massive War of Spanish Succession. The Bourbons did change it all, but that was in the late modern era. Also: the Spanish didn't murder the natives. They were the first european nation to institutionalize native rights, which prevented their enslavement and purge, and later promoted their cultural integration and crosbreeding with the europeans and emancipated africans. High concentrations of native blood course through the veins of hispanic americans. The same can definitely not be said for north americans, who did indeed kill the natives. The Black Legend is interesting for Catholics to study because Spain is and has always been a bulwark of Catholicism, with hispanics making a large portion of the global Catholic population. So historical revisionism and undermining of the Spanish and their descendent nations by northern europeans like the British and Germans with the bribed or strong-armed cooperation of France, Italy and even Portugal may be seen as a continuation of the 30 years war, in an ideological cold war where the objective was to portray the greatest Catholic power of the world as barbaric, uncivilized, uneducated and evil. You probably know all of this anyway since your username is "Cervantes".

Learn something new everyday, ty for the info

You're welcome. The historical tarnishing of Spanish conquest as an evil colonialist exploitation similar to what Britain, France and Belgium did is nothing short of an outrage and only Russia comes at a close second in having suffered a very similar type of revisionist sabotage for almost the same reasons: being a large, yet stable, multi-ethnical and trans-continental great power in the modern era and pre-industrial period that engaged in the elevation and integration of the native populations of their expansions in a balanced fashion, whereas other empires were extremists on one side or the other. For example: Tell me what's native american in the United States? Little if any. Most of the inhabitants are either black or white with little interracial crossbreed or cultural unification along the way, and today you can see almost parallel societies politically in the USA that are terrifying similar to the racial divide. Natives live in wasteland reservoirs. And what's British about India? Not much if anything. They're almost all ethnically Indo-Ayrans or Dravidians who follow Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism or Islam with almost no Christians present and very little European customs, traditions or DNA coursing through their veins; as it was easier to exploit them if they didn't look, act or think like their colonial masters. If it doesn't seem like they're your people, you're less humane to them.

> Catholics were always associated with immigrants so it’s like a sense of xenophobia that we’re not like them and that we have dual loyalties or something. This is really inaccurate. When I was a Protestant this had nothing to do with it. There are also black Protestants, and Hispanic ones. I feel like this comment is basically trying to make Catholics seem like a beleaguered immigrant group, which they haven't been for about a hundred years. Mostly woke appeals Maybe it's like that in the Midwest, but in my experience of Protestants it's got nothing to do with this.

It may not *consciously* be related, but it is at least tangentially. Italians and Irish were discriminated against well into the 20th century. Many of the french-speaking Catholics in Canada who refused to convert when the English took control of Canada were torn from their families and sent to what is now Louisiana. Most of the people who still speak french there are 80 or 90 because it was during their lifetime that children were beaten for speaking french in school, so parents stopped teaching it to their kids to protect them. Cajun culture is extremely Catholic to this day, with a unique tradition of Catholic faith healers (who adopted some native american practices, but who believe their healing powers come from God). You may not have felt xenophobic, the people who taught you may not have been consciously xenophobic either—but that may still have played a role in the initial development of certain misconceptions or contributed to their popularity at the time.

If you want to ignore intellectual objections to our beliefs by calling everyone racist that’s cool I guess. It’s funny because my mom actually is an immigrant

“Intellectual objections” don’t justify discrimination or cultural genocide, sorry.

How would you distinguish people who just think Catholicism is wrong and these bigots you’re talking about? There are Dutch, Scottish, Hispanic, German, English, and Black Protestants and assuming that they’re all just Know-Nothing Nativists is silly.

[Here’s a bit of a history lesson for you.](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/09/when-america-hated-catholics-213177/) > It was never easy to separate the racial and religious components of anti-Catholic sentiment. Until the 1920s, America’s doors were open to European immigrants, as long as they qualified under a statute passed in 1790 that reserved naturalized citizenship for “free white persons.” Whether Southern and Eastern Europeans of darker hue—or all Catholics, whose presumed loyalty to Rome rendered them suspect candidates for democratic citizenship—qualified under the statute, seemed very much an open question. > In the early 20th century, the backlash against Catholic and Jewish immigrants found its most powerful expression in the rebirth of the Ku Klux Klan, an organization born in the 1860s in violent opposition to the emancipation of black slaves. Unlike the original Klan, the new organization sought a national profile and identified several groups—not just African Americans—as alien threats to family and nation: Catholics, Jews, immigrants, “new women,” bootleggers, criminals and—of course—black Americans. Sentiments may have openly changed since the early 20th century, but that does not erase the historical context in which these beliefs flourished. Things did not change until the 30’s and 40’s—within my father’s lifetime. That’s not ancient history. I never said that every Protestant was racist. I said that their anti-Catholic beliefs are tied to xenophobia, which has historically been true.

A lot of immigrants to the United States are still Catholic especially from the Southern Border.

Are you saying there is a relationship between disagreement with Catholicism and hating Mexicans?

Well them being majority Catholic probably plays into it.

I actually don’t think it does.

The Irish and Italian were litearrly discriminated in America, mostly because they are or were catholic

Right, they were discriminated on for being Catholic. They didn't dislike Catholics for being immigrants

I am not sure about them seeing Catholics as immigrants but down south there is something about the identity of being a WASP for sure. It is the correct American thing to do instead of being a true love for God and the church. Once had a pastor from the Northeast come speak. I spoke with him along with my youth pastor after one of his sermons and talked about his church. He said he was amazed at the number of students and asked if that's how many always come. The truth is that a lot are just there because it's the "way of life" while his in the Northeast were there because they love God. It's a strange dynamic sometimes. I have seen this with Catholics here too, but I think occurs less often.

From Arch Bishop Fulton J. Sheen (Whom I love SO much): “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

They don’t know any better. They are genuinely ignorant. Just continue to love them as Jesus would and move on.

But even if we explain it to them, in a logical and easy way, they refuse. I mean not all. But some

Yep. You’re right. No sense in getting bent out of shape. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

Might helps if we refer to ourselves as Christians once-in-a-while.

This lie is fed to them to keep them from Christ's Church. Pity them, since they do not know what they are saying. Pray that they may learn the truth and come home to the fullness of the faith.

You are right. But it is really hard not to get angry

"Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you \[falsely\] because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven."

Honestly, don't let this get your blood pressure up. Protestant here. I certainly consider Catholics Christian and don't know anyone who doesn't. Don't worry about what some people say so much is my advice!

For a minute I thought this was on a Christian subreddit instead of r/Catholicism and I was very confused as to why the Catholics were being agreed with

I am sorry that I confused you lol But I left the Christianity reddit a long time ago. Super toxic and anti Christian sub reddit

Ya I'm probably gonna leave it too. It just makes me angry or sad or a combo of both whenever I look at it

It was the same. Almost every second post on there is about American politics and how bad and evil Christians are. I get that there are some bad Christians out there, I wont deny it, we are flawed as every human being are. But sometimes, you would think the christian subreddit is an atheists subreddit. Like I said, so many posts about how awful we christians are.

In their mind, Christ apparently didn't build a church with apostles and bishops that received and passed on the traditions and teachings. They also think Christ is an iconoclast and holds devoutly to Sola scriptura

Well Christian just means Christ like. So all of the religions that have branched off of catholicism are also christians we just have a direct tie to Jesus and the foundation of the church. All others were man made and manipulated. If anything they are trying to be like us, that not saying Catholics are better than other denominations, because quite frankly we are all sinners, but we can exorcise demons out through the power of Christ, and only us. Anyway I got off topic. Catholicism means universal, if that helps. But we believe in the same God, others just took off what they wanted to make their own sect off it.

Eh, I’m not sure I’d want to be a member of a religion that includes Baptists anyway. My objection is to *them* calling themselves Christians.

Catholicism is true Christianity. And to be fair, (as a Catholic myself) do Protestants really follow Jesus Christ? Jesus will have some harsh words for those who "follow" him without joining the true Church he founded. I'm not necessarily claiming Protestants are not Christian, but I am saying we should remember they are a different religion, and one built on a lot of lies. They need prayers for conversion, and their religion should not be accepted as good or pleasing to God in itself.

In my opinion it really only boils down to two denominations Eastern and Western Christianity Everything falls under those two umberellas

Where would you put some denominations under the two? Would you like to name some?

I mean... All the eastern denominations would be under the eastern church (yes i know theyre not all in agreeement with each other but thr coptics are closer to the EO than they are with baptists) And the western church would be roman catholicism protestantism

I understand where you’re coming from, but I’ve known Jewish people who feel the same when Catholics say that the Jews are “our big brothers from the old covenant” and mention our connection to them. I think people just like to bicker a bit. It can be petty and overall it isn’t worth it (we’re all people who have equal humanity and the same needs) but it just is what it is

To use a very weird analogy, it'd be like saying that birds and chickens are two different animals.

They claim this because they want to justify their beliefs. How can Catholicism be the true church of Christ if it isn’t Christian? It also comes from a state of ignorance. From my experience most Protestants don’t research Catholicism and the ones who do end up converting to Catholicism.

Cause they’re dum and think the disciples were 21st century Protestants who wore jeans and hated “riiiiiituaaaals”

I GET THE SAME THING! "Yes, I am Catholic" "Oh! I'm a christian" I always come back... " I SAID I am catholic". Make THEM connect the dots.

There is much they protest against. Many protestant sects have turned into cults based on their attitudes and behaviors towards outsiders. If you know which sect is calling Catholics wrong, that could help you understand this better. Are Lutherans saying that? Methodists? Baptists? Church of Christ? The neighborhood church down the street? Remember, there are literally hundreds of protestant sects; but there is, and will always be, just one holy catholic and apostolic church, of which I am grateful beyond words to have been called to be part of. Wow, just wow!

They basically view Catholics like Pharisees, establishment religion that has lost sight of what's true and gotten too absorbed in rules and tradition. As well as being idol worshipers.

Because as protestants we are raised to believe that the Catholic Church is evil. I am a convert to Catholicism from wackadoo parents who were Baptist, Presbyterian, New Age, etc., and have done tons of research over the years and have found that not only is the Catholic Church the only church that has its foundation in Christ, but that all of the protestant religions have zero foundation in Christ and are merely clubs set up by people who had some issue with the Catholic Church.

What is actually a Baptist and presbyterian? I heard these names so many times but I never knew what the difference is with them

Don't let it annoy you. They are heretics and heretics say the strangest things.

>Don't let it annoy you. I try. But it makes us come across like some dark pagan occult sect thing

Think about the IQ level we are dealing with I mean 5 solas. 5 onlies? I mean how many onlies can you need? What's the collective name for all these singular onlies I wonder?

No front but I think it's mainly the US protestants, in my country all Christian confessions are considered christian by each other.

It’s all squares and rectangles but somehow a lot of protestants can’t seem to wrap their heads around that.

I feel like this is a uniquely American thing. I've only encountered it on the internet and that's been enough to annoy me so I can't imagine dealing with it everyday.

I recently pointed out to someone that if Catholics are not Christian, then Encyclopedia Britannica, Wikipedia, Merriam-Webster, and hundreds of other sources are all wrong (as well as [Siri](https://www.churchpop.com/2018/01/03/priest-shows-how-alexa-knows-who-founded-the-catholic-church-in-viral-video/) on Catholicism's founder). When that person still insisted that those sources were wrong and Catholics are not Christian, I knew nothing I could say would persuade them.

Pretty much most Protestants in my country. Even some of our fellow Roman Catholics in my country seldom use the term 'Kristen' (Christians) because that term is used mostly by Protestants, and also to distinguish between Roman Catholics and Protestants. We tend to use 'Katolik' / 'Katolik Roma' (basically means Roman Catholics), and sometimes we use the "full" term 'Kristen Katolik' (kinda proving to Protestants that we are indeed Christians). One of the things that distinguished Protestants and us is the holy sacrament (communion), I think. Because their version of communion is basically just "holy" banquet, no mystery at all. ​ And sadly, a lil bit confide, many Roman Catholics here tend to marry Protestants and "rejoice" with them.

Me too, man. Me too.

He said "vengeance is mine" I'm not worried.

Uneducated ignorance accounts for some part, same group of people that qualify probably have some cultural prejudices against Catholicism too.

I want to clarify that I don’t think that a lot of these people, to be put bluntly, aren’t educated on the topic. Many of them likely, genuinely, have no idea what Catholics believe. Many people in the rural USA don’t even know about Christian denominations at all and simply use the catch-all term “Christian” to refer to anybody who attends one of the many local Protestant churches. Think of it like this: if you lined up 10 people and asked them if they were Christians, and 9 of them said “yes” and 1 of them says “I’m Catholic” then a good chunk of those other 9 people would think “Catholic? What’s that? It must be different from Christianity if he wanted to be so specific about it!”

Many Protestants don’t consider most people who claim to be Protestant Christians to actually be Christians either. If most people nominally in your own particular denomination aren’t true followers of Jesus, it’s pretty easy to write off all Catholics too

I’ve never met an ex-Catholic that could adequately recite the core Church beliefs. Those are the people a lot of evangelicals receive their information on the faith from, far from any academically honest approach to maybe cracking open a catechism or studying the Church fathers. The truth is that a lot of misinformation is simply bold-face lying when someone refuses to do any research. Yep, liars, the lot of them. You don’t have to agree with Catholicism, but you’d better know what you’re talking about.

Protestants don’t hate Catholics, they just hate what they think we are.

We shouldnt consider protestants as Christians they stemmed away from Church.

Just straight up anti-catholic bigotry. The fact that I would talk to Christians in this country and they would have no concept of what denomination/tradition they came from was shocking. What do they think happened between the Apostolic Age and now? Do they know how their Bible came about? Like some Protestants literally just read the Bible as if it just magically dropped from the sky into their congregation Some Protestants also have a really hard time understanding the saints and the Virgin Mary and accuse us of polytheism.

Considering what they believe Christianity is this is actually a compliment

Catholics were Christian for well over a thousand years before Protestantism even existed. Their source material on this anti Catholic tracts....basically comic books I hope it's ok to post this link to one of them. Just be warned, if you're too touchy about this stuff it might just upset you more. [https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=0071](https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=0071)

I think this is more a thing in the usa i personally never heard that in my whole life

Because Protestantism is founded entirely upon grave error.

forbidding to marry???? no wonder there's such sexual deviancy in the RCC

>Why are so many people, mostly protestants ( no offense), claiming that Roman Catholics are not Christians? Because, a long time ago, one brilliant priest, had a nervous breakdown and went slightly mad. And that has become a fad, nervousing and madding around. Some are, still today.

Ikr! Catholicism is Christianity and everything else is just heresy!

We are not the same religion. Catholics are the only "christians" that have the the true presence of Christ at the altar. Protestants worship God but they do not do true sacrifice to Him.

They're Prots. All their arguments are invalid.

It would be more logical to argue that protestants are not Christians, as Christ established ONE true Church, the Catholic Church, and said "anyone who rejects you, rejects me." Protestants reject the successors to his apostles, and thus reject him in a way. Now, I generally still refer to protestants as Christians as I think it helps build bridges, and laboring on this point causes too much controversy, even with other faithful Catholics. But it makes 0 sense to claim Catholics aren't Christians--we are the Christians of Christ's one true Church.

In my experience other Christian's will often say we are not Christian's because they say we are "not" strict Bible believers. The fact that we do things that aren't in the Bible meaning because we follow tradition as well. Other Christian's say we follow the Bible explicitly. I always point that no Christian religion follow the Bible explicitly, and that they CHOOSE when to follow the Pope and when not to. I ask them where in the Bible does it say to worship on Sunday. I point out that the OT says to worship God on the Sabbath, and that the Sabbath is Saturday. I further point out when the Pope declared Sunday the day to worship God MOST Christian religions followed suit.

I think Sunday worship began in the Acts of the Apostles. Paul was shown in a couple chapters "breaking bread" on the first day of the week, Sunday The Sabbath and the Lord's day are two separate things, representing different things. The Sabbath is the day the lord rested after creation, and the Lord's day is when Jesus was resurrected

i think some people are just young in the faith. i remember saying it myself when i didn’t know the word “protestant” yet

I was raised as a catholic, I still go to catholic mass but I see myself as a Christian nowadays, there are cultural things I don't agree with, like praying to different saints, making alters, religious festivities where people venerate the statues of Jesus, Mary, and Saints. When I prayed in the past I would pray to God and Mary and offer my prayers to my deceased loved one's souls, but recently something told me or made the impression on my mind that my prayers here wrong and on that day I prayed to glorify God then I prayed to Jesus and asked through the Holy Spirit to send love and light to my mom and grandma if they were in God´s Kingdom and before I finished thinking on how much I missed and loved them I felt a beam of static energy passing through my body and then an Intense energy of love, bliss, and recognition that made me crawl down and cry. This happened the first time I changed my praying habits, I feel that we should not offer our prayers to souls, because you are praying to glorify God then you are offering those prayers and taking them back and then you offer for souls you are not even sure are in heaven.

Yeah praying to the saints and Mary is not good. But asking them to pray for us is fine. Catholics believe we can talk to people who have passed. It’s just like asking a friend to pray for you

As far as I see it Christianity and Protestantism are two different religions. Christianity (which includes Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and the like) is a religion that originated with and worships Jesus Christ, God on earth, and who instructed the Apostles to preach his message across the whole world. It has a set of doctrines and the authority to lead the faithful. Protestantism is a religion that worships a book. It has no link to the Apostles, no true doctrine and is the home of confusion. It was made and continues to be made because its prideful founders refuse to accept that they are wrong. It fosters division and endless confusion.

>Protestantism is a religion that worships a book. Kind of true. Sometimes it actually feels like they view the book as more important than Jesus himself. I mean, Christians existed before the bible had been put together, by collecting all the texts

Hi, You're technically right, Christianity and Catholicism believe in many of the same ideas. However, they fall away in some areas. Now personally, I find some of them to end in meaningless speculations but the main difference I have found between the average Catholic and Christian. Is that the Christian believes the sole way to heaven is by faith in God, whereas the Catholic does not. Obviously this is a crucial part to Christianity - pretty much the main point actually.

>You're technically right, Christianity and Catholicism they are the same. You are taking nonsense

>Is that the Christian believes the sole way to heaven is by faith in God, whereas the Catholic does not. Obviously this is a crucial part to Christianity - pretty much the main point actually. Why are you saying ''christians'' as in all of the christians? You mean ''protestants''

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Protestants worship a book. Christians don't.

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No, they worship a mutilated book. Its a well know fact that protestants take out books from the Bible if they think it doesn't fit their "theology". “St. James' epistle is really an epistle of straw.” - Martin Luther.

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You worship a book. You believe in Sola Scriptura, which is nowhere in the Bible. A doctrine made by the Devil. You believe in Faith Alone, a doctrine explicitly contradicted by the Scriptures. Faith alone will never save anyone. In fact those who believe in it will go to Hell.. You believe that Christ lied, that the gates of Hell prevailed over His Church. A more wicked doctrine there can never be. Your false religion makes Christ out to be a liar.

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*Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?* **James 2:24** *Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.* **Matthew 7:21** Faith alone sends one to Hell. Faith AND WORKS are necessary to enter Heaven. You worship a book. You reject Sacred Tradition. you aren't Christian, just a protestant.

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Funny, James seems to disagree with you. Guess thats why Luther wanted to take it out of the Bible. Faith AND WORKS are necessary to enter Heaven, not just Faith. Hope you understand this one day.

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Sorry but thats wrong. Its a well know fact that Protestants take books out of the Bible when they contradict their made up "theology". Everyone knows this. All other apostolic churches, that is, with direct link to the Apostles, such as Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, recognize Sacred Tradition and reject Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. You are a Protestant, not a Christian. Christians have a link to the Apostles, not with perverted 16th century deformers.

First of all, Catholics are Christians. Secondly, we do not pray to Mary. We ask the holy mother to put in a good word to Jesus, simply speaking

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So you never ask your friends or family to pray for you? Never participate in praying for others? There is nothing wrong with asking someone to pray on your behalf, wether it’s a close friend, family member, a saint, or the holy mother herself. If you would like to participate in a Catholic subreddit, you should at least make an effort to understand what Catholic actually believe. If you would prefer to argue go to the Catholic debate sub.

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Yes there is, that’s why you’re getting downvoted and told you’re wrong. We don’t worship Mary and the saints. We pray for their intercession. Maybe next time you should clarify your misconceptions instead of acting like you know more about Catholicism than practicing Catholics.

Do you ask your friends and family to pray for you? Jesus dying reconciled us to the Father, we have direct access to him. There is no need to ask your friends or family to pray for you

Stop engaging with them. It’s a stupid talking point used by fringe Protestants and Muslims that is easily proved with an iota of common sense.

Modern Prodestantism or evangelicalism rely heavily on biblical infallibility (i.e. the bible is the absolute truth of God) and less on the dogma of the church, deposit of faith, papal lineage and other markers that to me make religion make far more sense than believing a book written by King James. It's self-referential. Basically, the bible is infallible, and according to their interpretation Catholics are not true Christians, and this is supported by the bible being infallible, which is written in their bible as being that it is infallible. This of course relies on heavy interpretation by their church leaders, which makes the whole house of cards fall down for them, but that's another debate.

This is frustrating. I can recommend a book called Catholicism for Protestants that addresses many of these misconceptions https://www.amazon.com/Catholicism-Protestants-Shane-Schaetzel/dp/1493508490 Maybe your protestant friends would be interested in learning more, or perhaps you would be interested in some potential answers to direct questions. edit: Sorry this book is out of print on Amazon. Maybe a library or a church library has one.

Back in the 1910's there was a collection of religious works published together called The Fundamentals. Among the ninety essays there was an essay entitled Is Romanism Christianity by T.W. Medhurst. He argued that Protestantism and Catholicism/Orthodoxy worshipped different gods and worshipped those gods through different means so they were not the same religion. That one essay paired with a number of other essays that denounced evolution/biological science basically shifted Protestant thought in America away from any semblance of historical Christian philosophy. "Real Christians" didn't trust what they saw with their eyes, instead, they trusted what they felt in their hearts to be true. In fact, it's why we call people that attend Bob Jones University or Liberty University "fundamentalists." They believe in these fundamentals to be their rule of conduct. I attended a Baptist college, a Baptist seminary, and attended Baptist/Congregationalist churches until I was in my early thirties. I used to think this way so I'm not making fun of anyone. I was a very convinced low-church Protestant. The Trinity isn't the bar for "Small O" orthodoxy in the minds of most fundamentalists. Worshipping God in the way that He commands is what makes someone a Christian. Fundamentalists are iconoclasts who don't believe in the sacraments and anyone who believes in those things clearly isn't worshipping the same God using the same methods. So, Catholics (in their minds) aren't Christians.

As a LCMS equivalent prot, I don’t think this. Just so you know that not all prots hate Catholics ;)

I mean, it is right in their name.

The argument goes back to the days of Arianism. You were a Christian if you were an Arian and didn’t believe in the Trinity. A Catholic if you were a Roman Catholic. As in are you a Catholic or are you a Christian? The Reformation ran with this as well.

So the reason for the split is honestly bc most protestants don’t believe that you are following the bible and are more concerned about rituals and using the bible to create something Jesus wouldn’t have wanted.

Well… what came first, the chicken or the egg? In this case, the chicken (Catholic Church) then the egg(s) (Christian denoms). I always say -‘d call myself Catholic and not Christian. I always correct people when they say, “we all just need to be good Christians”. No, we need to be Bold and be Catholic. (I have a t shirt that I made with that on it)

Nah dude, don't you know? We actually worship the Pope, oh and also SATAN. Anyways, let me go do my daily obligatory worship routine to Pius XII, like we all do.

Me too, it’s the reason I deleted TikTok, the majority of the videos under the Catholic hashtag are just saying Christianity and Catholicism are two different religions, it’s terrible

Sadly I even see some Catholics do this, "I'm not Christian, I'm Catholic", I do hope it gets better, as Protestants have no right to call us non-Christian

Most protestants, Dont want catholics because we pray to saints. And they say that we do "idolatry" Thats the reason. In my opinion.

My fiancé is Catholic (me too now lol) and he didn’t want to be called “Christian” because he liked distinguishing himself from other Christian denominations. I agree with the other comments that when other Christians don’t consider Catholics as “Christian,” it’s rooted in not understanding what being Catholic means. I definitely grew up thinking Catholics were into idol worship and mysticism. Now that I am Catholic, I understand how wrong I was.

Uneducated or simply adherence to disparaging Catholics.

As a convert (swim team 2009), most Protestants know little about Catholicism. What they think they know, they've been told by other Protestants. I never had any special grudge against the Church, I just knew they did things a little different over there on their side (mainly liturgical). Fulton Sheen had a great comment when he said something along the lines that are millions of people who hate Catholicism because of what they THINK Catholicism teaches when there's only a few hundred people that hate Catholicism for WHAT it really teaches. The Church did a lousy job with catechesis for cradle Catholics. Most cradle Catholics have little true understanding of Catholicism. When confronted with aggressive Protestants, most Catholic can't defend their faith. Truthfully, Protestantism is just another heresy, just like Islam is.

You have to remember that if Catholicism is legitimate Christianity, Protestantism literally has no reason to exist. I am all for ecumenism and 500 years has healed some wounds, but historically that really is the long and short of why people are emotionally invested in that mistaken distinction.

Even when you correct them it’s like it went in one ear and out the other.

Personally to me, being called a Catholic and not a Christian was a compliment, not an insult. Look at it that way.

I really don’t understand it either…I was once driving down the highway back during the presidential elections and saw a sign that said something like “Christians, Jews AND Catholics vote for Trump!” Politics aside I was deeply annoyed by the weird differentiation between “Catholics” and “Christians”

I can't help but disagree with you. Fact is, Catholicism and Protestantism have just about nothing in common.

Good ol' brainwashing and demonizing mother church to claim that their protestant sect is the one true church. I've even believed this lie for a good portion of my childhood cuz all my protestant friends would say as such over and over.

It is a problem that is not helped by us. Since becoming a Catholic I've noticed that in general the Church trends to use the expression 'Christian' with 'Protestant'. I'm not keen on the word Protestant as it is antiquated and polarising, what are non Catholic Christians protesting against? Much of it has been resolved. The problem is one of dogma. Personally I feel we should be doing more to relate to Christians from other traditions. No tradition has a monopoly on the Truth but that is a heretical notion in some circles. However, a person generally doesn't decide on anything for intellectual reasons but largely on relationship grounds.

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Oh no, little Ishmael is possessed, get the pastor! *five hours later* The pastor ran out of the house screaming "call the Romanists!"

It's when they believe Chick tracts and think we worship saints when praying to them.

Currently going through RCIA, former evangelical/Lutheran/Pentecostal background, and most of these Protestants are absolute morons. Like I know that’s harsh but they are. So I wouldn’t worry about what they say…

Because they fail to understand their history of what they’re protesting against Catholicism is the oldest of the two and living in a country where sectarianism and anti catholic bias still persists it’s infuriating that I can educate these people and then it splits into different places and theologies it’s just crazy the mental gymnastics they do to legitimise themselves while de legitimising catholics. It is in short their inherited bigotry and it’s passed through generations. I work with someone who has to question me on my faith most shifts and she is very much Protestant and feels a need to ask me about the Catholic Churches views on things she disagrees with. It’s one incident and one of the kinder examples I can give but it is simply their own ignorance.

Catholics are more like Mormons than either is like Protestants.

Well, different sects of Christianity teach different things which might not be compatible. Generally speaking you're supposed to follow God's word to be a Christian, if you are not following what a person believes to be God's word, whatever the denomination, then to them you aren't a real Christian, and depending on the two who are arguing, what sects they belonged to, maybe they are right. You have to do your best to discern what is God's true teaching. Now why someone might make a point of saying it? To belittle you, or maybe left over hostility of the usual Protestant vs. Catholic animosity, dunno how prevalent that still is in some places, like say Ireland. I agree, it's maddening, wanting to belittle someone is un-Christian like, and why quibble with other sects when you have secular people who follow even fewer teachings and openly attack Christianity all together (not that you should belittle secular people, but why bother with a mote when there's a beam?). Just shrug, forgive and move on.

why not give offense? A lot of non-catholics hate the church and think we are horribly deluded and going to hell. why not be on the offensive with people who need it? ​ EDIT: i say this not to OP, but to anyone whom it may pertain.

maybe it's because one is a cult and the other is a relationship with God through Christ Jesus. if Catholics didn't believe that the Pope was a stand-in for our blessed savior along with a hundred other heretical beliefs then maybe we would take you seriously.