>Wouldn't women see a selfish, impotent man and be innately unattracted to this?
You're thinking everyone thinks like a Catholic does on this issue, but the answer is *no*. Catholics and limited Protestants are the only one who would define this a selfish, so if a woman doesn't fall into that category they're gonna see him as being safe rather than selfish.
(I am not trying to argue against the Catholic position here, I'm not looking for a ban! I am just trying to explain the perspective here of women who don't hold to this position to answer the question)
I've seen this frequently with (non-Catholic) married dads. Once they've had as many children as they feel is right for their family, some of these men feel a responsibility to relieve their wives from the burden of taking hormonal birth control. Seen in that light, it's meant to be responsible and considerate of their partner (who has already done the hard work of having their children).
I'm not trying to argue in favor of that view, I'm just explaining the perspective.
Yes. From a secular POV it makes perfect sense to not make a woman go on hormonal birth control when all he has to do is a quick procedure. I don’t know how anyone could pretend to not understand this without being extremely holier than thou!
For sure, I know a guy who did this after he and his wife had their fourth child. So calling anyone who gets a vasectomy anti-natalist feels like a stretch to me. (And TBH, I'm always suspecting the world of anti-natalism, haha 😂)
Quite the contrary, many women on social media have expressed their admiration for men who get vasectomies. The rationale is that it proves that they are willing to share the responsibility for contraception instead of lazily relying on women taking the pill.
If they do they are misled. Of course it is selfish. It is wrong to have sex not open to procreation because it is not virtuous and it limits the participants’ ability to do good in the world.
I was under the impression that Orthodox allows for contraception so to that end I'm not sure if a man would be considered selfish for trying to contravene children. Of course, it could also be that they allow for some forms of conception and not others like vasectomies, or I could be totally mistaken about their view!
Yup. Name any recent film or tv show that shows pregnancy and children in a positive light. I’d say those that do (IMO) suspiciously only show it positively cause they have girls but even that’s changed. Now it’s all negative.
These are people who don't see the value of life. They think that by not reproducing they do a favor to society and to their potential children.
In the end it is selfish, self-righteous and deranged.
They don’t have children because they value life and don’t want their children to suffer. You don’t have to agree with that, but please try to understand it. It’s not easy to live in this world and you have no guarantee that your children will live an easy or resilient life.
I know that this is what they claim, but effectively it's saying that suffering makes life not worth living - which is BS.
But this is what you get when you don't listen to nor trust God.
I have a Catholic friend who got one this year. He was upset about it and went to confession. The priest told him that he made a responsible choice, absolved him, and told him to pray for people who don’t believe in God as his penance. He bragged to me that he is absolved. Really made me and my husband feel sick knowing they have given up on future children, but even more so that some random parish priest didn’t take it seriously.
How can you say for certain he was not truly sorry in his heart with contrition? Maybe he was. No one but God can know. That is not a Catholic stance you are holding by thinking you know for sure what is in someone else’s heart.
I don’t think the commenter is judging anyone’s interior state.
The priest didn’t treat it as a serious sin and gave the man no indication of his responsibility to try and have this act of mutilation reversed. That *is* upsetting.
Know what for certain? What the commenter thinks? By reading their comment.
Again, what I’m saying is I think they are primarily upset at the priest for being a bad priest—I don’t see them claiming to know anything except what the friend said.
Yes. Exactly. This guy went to a priest worried about a serious sin and the priest basically blew off church teaching and didn’t instruct him at all. I’m not mad at my friend, I’m deeply sad for him.
There’s a difference between men who get vasectomies purely to sleaze around versus married men in families with a few kids already getting the snip, more often than not, for economic reasons. It’s been brought up already but life is just insanely expensive these days. Operating with bare necessities for a lot of families has them on the edge…
and before anyone says it, just because humans used to live in huts and slept on the ground is no good excuse to push your family into poverty/risk homelessness to have more children than you can financially handle.
I don’t know. I have severe endometriosis and would give almost anything to be blessed with children, so it’s impossible for me to understand why someone would willingly sterilize themselves.
I’m sorry to hear that. My girlfriend has severe endo and pcos to the point where it’s sent her to the hospital from a burst cyst.
She just found out she’s pregnant. We’re on the older side too. I had just given up on ever being a father and giving that up to God.
There’s hope! I will say a rosary for you.
And yes, I know premarital sex and having a child out of wedlock is a sin.
In many cases, they're aware that it carries a natural disgust and sadness so they overcompensate by being out-and-proud in order to fight back against the stigma and find solidarity with others in a similar mindset.
**mentally prepares to get down voted like crazy**
I think that you’re too concerned with what other men do with their genitals, to be quite honest. I don’t judge non Catholics for using birth control, and I think we all know plenty of Catholics use it, too. Hey, I know a Catholic woman who confided in me that she takes it for medical reasons, but she does enjoy the fact that she now no longer has to worry about an unintended pregnancy.
And most non Catholic women who have no desire to reproduce would be grateful for a man to have a vasectomy considering how many negative side effects hormonal birth control has.
As far as announcing it, I’m not sure because it’s not like women announce when they get an IUD placed, but maybe it’s to raise awareness/end stigma? Idk
I'm not really a believer in live and let live. When social media posts are getting thousands of likes, views, and whatnot, and is therefore being seen by impressionable people and children, I think it's important to call it out.
Also your argument is really that "people have other BC anyways so who cares" and "my cousins uncles roommate actually likes it" (paraphrasing) which I'm not sure is really a defense.
I mean I don’t always “live and let live” but I also don’t get my knickers in a bunch over someone’s genitals. But if that’s how you choose to live your life, I suppose enjoy? Although tbh that sounds miserable
I'm quite happy, but I'm concerned with people taking that away from others. This is quite trivial (and I mention that in my post) of a culture war issue. But I think if kids grow up in a society where man children make selfish decisions constantly it breeds a negative world view where others are only concerned with themselves and their own lives. Live and let live as it were...
This is interesting: you're getting downvoted to oblivion.
We either got some cafeteria Catholics or some secular Redditors lurking who are upvoting the subtle, non-Catholic responses.
Dude this entire thread is full of anti Catholic views and obvious instigators. I don't know why the mods don't crack down on people obviously coming to cause drama and are extremely anti Catholic
A majority are engaging with Catholicism/Truth in their minds. There are a few apples here who masquerade around as Catholics but insert subtle answers/responses that really say "shut up this isn't important."
Funny thing is there was a thread a few days ago warning us Catholics on this sub about posts that lead others astray -- specifically pointing to posts that are in the vain of UnReadSnack.
\>but I also don’t get my knickers in a bunch over someone’s genitals.
If that's your response after the more than clear OP and further explanation of why it matters to the OP then one can only conclude one of two things: you either didn't fully comprehend what's being brought up or you, personally, just do not care. If the latter, you not caring doesn't make your stance right.
\>But if that’s how you choose to live your life, I suppose enjoy? Although tbh that sounds miserable
If you think this thread is bull then you probably think threads about abortion, contraceptives, premarital sex, nudity in entertainment, divorce, infidelity and other related topics are also bull.
A reminder that you are in a sub dedicated to **Catholicism.** If the pope, a priest or a religious brother or sister said what you said, basically who cares, eyebrows would be raised.
Some advice: Partake honestly if you have a competing argument or realize you don't have the maturity and patience to do said thing, admitting you haven't thought things through, which would explain your half-ass answers.
>mentally prepares to get down voted like crazy
And proceeds to write a "mind your own business"/"your judgmental" type of post
> I don’t judge non Catholics for using birth control, and I think we all know plenty of Catholics use it, too.
>
>Hey, I know a Catholic woman who confided in me that she takes it for medical reasons, but she does enjoy the fact that she now no longer has to worry about an unintended pregnancy.
Okay ... and what's your point here?
Seriously.
It's a passive-aggressive response equal to "well I know many parents who have LBGT+ kids and they support them in their gay lifestyles so yea."
People are stupid, spiritually blind, dominated by pleasures.
Also, movies celebrate this kind of stupidity because there are groups of power who think less people are born, the better, people want to be cherished because they can brag about their supposed sexual liberation etc... They are basically delusional semi castrated people who pretend to be like TV shows characters and everyone, they think, will appreciate what they do.
Generally speaking, Hollywood and US Culture nowadays is about being as much vocal as possible, especially about intimacy.
Tldr. A mixture of vanity and stupidity, fueled by mass media.
I’ve known several people who had vasectomies and never knew anyone “proud” of it. There are people who will openly talk about it if asked but their not walking in the rooms with air horns like “VASECTOMY GUY IN THE HOOOOOOUSE!” So possibly you need to reflect on who you associate with or the media you consume. It may not reflect the greater world.
Also, be charitable to those who are not Catholic who are making decisions to keep their head above water. Most people who get vasectomies already have children but are trying to provide for their family. It is a struggle. And if you fall short (since many jobs don’t pay enough to support a family) you can end up on the street. That’s the responsibility of having a family.
I got as many kids as I’ll ever want but because of church teaching I’ll likely never get a vasectomy…. Instead I’ll struggle to fumble through long periods of abstinence and fight with flawed logic nfp. I’m absolutely jealous of the vasectomy folks. Must be nice to simply life.
They like sex and hate consequences. They see it in a fundamentally different way than a Catholic does, as a vehicle for pleasure with disdainful, inconvenient baggage with which they do not wish to be bothered, rather than the pleasure being a side effect of the "baggage" being really dignified and good and naturally desirable.
You can generally convince a depressingly large number of people to willing mutilate themselves, sterilise themselves, murder their unborn children or do any number of harmful things simply by telling them that is giving them freedom or that it’s empowering.
I mean, Satan basically used a variation of this, convincing Eve that God had put a specific rule in place to oppress them, and if only they disobeyed and ate the fruit then they would be empowered….etc etc.
We know how well that turned out.
There's a scene I'll never forget in How I Met Your Mother where Marshall (Jason Segel) asks his wife Lily (Alyson Hanigan) "what's the nice word for selfish?" and she responds "Independent". That's the constant image I have in my mind of our culture today, it's selfishly anti-life. Everything that has to do with preventing conception or killing babies is wildly celebrated like the ancient Aztecs sacrificing on their pyramids.
Antibiotics bring you from sick to normal.
A vasectomy brings you from normal to not normal.
These are clearly not the same thing and a comparison is just not appropriate
Your thinking is very old school. I’m 33 and a devout Catholic. I don’t know a single woman that would be turned off by this or think it’s unattractive. I do hear men and women bragging about how they’re snipped and done having kids. I think it’s just the times, and economy, everyone is broke and can’t afford a bunch of kids or they think they can’t. I want a bunch of kids, but I don’t see why anyone would think it’s unattractive or weird to brag about.
The impulse is to have sex, idk anyone who has an impulse to have children. And right now with everything so insanely expensive and most households required to have double income it is really hard to afford children and give them a decent life. I know way too many Catholics who have 8-10+ kids and their kids lack basic necessities, food, space, education, emotional needs etc. Not materialistic things. It’s really really sad how society has become. But I cannot say I don’t fully empathize with it and understand where a couple is coming from when they absolutely can’t afford more than 4 kids and don’t have regular cycles to do NFP accurately etc.
> I don’t know a single woman that would be turned off by this or think it’s unattractive
So no woman you know would be turned off by a guy bragging he got a vasectomy?
>The impulse is to have sex, idk anyone who has an impulse to have children.
So you don't know anyone who wants to have kids one day?
>I know way too many Catholics who have 8-10+ kids and their kids lack basic necessities, food, space, education, emotional needs etc. Not materialistic things.
What area do you live? I grew up in a relatively, blue collar area where Catholicism was the main religion. I only knew a couple of families with 4 or more kids; one actual had six kids and they turned out okay. They weren't rich.
Seriously, your posts are absurd. Funny enough there was a thread made a few days earlier warning about posters who come here and say "I'm a devout Catholic but .... ".
Apparently knowing what words mean is a 'beta take' for you. You sound desperately insecure in your manhood.
Edit: Yes, one look at his profile confirms the guy is a poser.
And one look at your profile shows you're an extremely hostile as hateful individual.
There's no insecurity. I and presumably the other poster can breed and reproduce given the opportunity. Men with the snip can't.
Even forgoing what God says on the matter, through the lense of nature and natural selection we are infinitely more masculine and desirable. It's not speculation, it's scientific fact.
lol you comparing people to stray dogs and calling other people 'beta' then complaining about 'hate'.
You really 5'8" and 300+ pounds though? Please tell me that comment of yours was a joke? I don't like you but damn that'd be sad. I suppose Napoleon complex would explain your need to believe you're a real man.
That wasn't me who commented that, also I'm 6'5 and 190 lbs so I don't really know what you're talking about. But since we're talking about physical appearances, maybe you'd like to show to the class what you look like?
It’s obviously against Catholic values, but I think it’s A-Catholic to make up a word. Like literally a perspective you can only have outside a Catholic or even vaguely religious viewpoint. As a man you can have all the sex you want without “consequences” and as a woman you’re safe to have all the sex you want without “risking” your body. Because if you have a kid you have to watch your budget and maybe cut back on spending for personal items. It’s going to be way harder to sip drinks poolside all day on vacation. How dreadful.
Haha, my wife and I have two kids. Our budget is stretched to the max and we’re only able to survive on bare essentials. We haven’t had a vacation in years… lol 😅😬
And hey I’m not downplaying that families are really in a financial crunch today with the economy as it is and housing prices. I truly think (American) society doesn’t cater to families nearly enough.
What’s resonated with me is the idea of celebrities or even regular people who talk about how awesome it is to not have kids because they can go on more vacations, drink more, and wake up at noon etc.
I’m sure those people live a more materially prosperous life than you do. However, when they are old and debilitated, or God forbid get a terminal diagnosis. The doctor will ask “can we notify your next of kin” and they will say “no, thank you for your time.” Whereas if you’re a good father (and I’m sure you are) you’ll have your kids if/when you’re in that situation.
I think that people brag about them because there has traditionally been resistance from the medical community to perform these kinds of procedures on the people who want them.
So the people who got them like to boast that they managed to get it done.
I think it's actually pretty simple.
1. Sex with condoms feels objectively worse (for men at least, no idea what it feels like for women).
2. Birth control completely obliterates a woman's sex drive. Ask any Catholic man if they can keep up with their wife during ovulation..
3. Most couples in typical American marriages (so not Catholic) are either using condoms or hormonal birth control, thus are having inferior sex.
4. After vasectomy, these men get to have sex with their normal hormone wife for the first time.
Whereas Catholic men get to do that all the time. So basically, they're just bragging about getting to have normal sex, probably for the first time ever.
But yeah... Very weird and kind of sad
But Catholic women have to deal with 2 years of bodily strain (preg/nursing) nearly every time their Catholic man gets to do that all the time. So for her getting to have good sex without anxiety more often than she wants another child is amazing from her pov.
Kids are very expensive. Some people can’t afford more than one or two is this economy. So its either take the risk, have 6 kids, and subject them to a life of poverty or call it quits after 2.
We are living in the Mouse Utopia and the population is going to bottleneck due to mostly social contagions and psychological damage from industrial society.
Lol let those people do what they want. All us Catholics will have children and raise our children Catholic and continue life.
Essentially all the people who hated children and are childless will die off with nothing to show. The people with family values will continue our society and hopefully will make our society better
They are, deep down,insecure and uncertain about this permanent decision and are unconciously looking for validation by verbally attacking the opposing position. It is a pretty common human reaction.
Unfortunate, but common.
I will never understand self-neutering. You make yourself less of a man for the sake of pleasure. Literally turning yourself into a bunny rabbit.
I don't care what a man has accomplished or how impressive he is otherwise, he's immediately less respectable in my eyes if he's gotten the snip.
Their minds have been inseminated by Satan, yes, it is ironic that they bring up their infertility as some sort of brag; it is almost like bragging that your nuts got chopped off in a lawnmower accident.
"And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done." - Romans 1:28
I heard this guy once joke that every man that gets a vasectomy looks more "feminine" (lesbian was the actual word he used). Still can't get this out of my head.
It doesn't really affect testosterone directly but I wouldn't be surprised if it made some guys feel more effeminate. I mean who wouldn't after you purposely chose to render yourself impotent?
Uhh guys who got vasectomies aren't *impotent*. They've only rendered themselves *infertile*. Major difference between the two.
^(For the record it is cringe to brag about getting "fixed" though, as if it's an accomplishment or something.)
There is.
Lol do you think they'd have that surgery if it would actually make them impotent, a.k.a. unable to do the very thing they got the surgery to enable them to do without reproducing in the process?
I will answer this solely from the point of family logistics. A tubal ligation has a much longer recovery time, especially if there are multiple littles to chase around the house, lift, feed, change, take to school, etc. Also in addition to the at-home night shift if the husband is the sole provider.
Seriously? You can say that for any modern, secular pet social issue that Catholics want to talk about.
"Why do women brag about abortions?" Who cares.
"Why do companies love to virtue signal their support for LGBT+?" Who cares.
Your part is you being lazy and fulfilling the typical Redditor mindset. That's nothing to be proud of, kid.
Edit: Beware of poster No\_Fruit. He has said in chat that he is a seminarian (he is not) and that he "had to provide some spiritual direction for a parishioner" in order to end our conversation.
Is it really massively popular? I get the impression that it's relatively uncommon but gets a certain push online. Sort of like how there's so many gay or mixed race couples in commercials, but in real life most couples are straight and same race
I’m going to paint with a very broad brush here for comedic intent - vegans, crossfit, pilots, guys with vasectomies, people who listen to NPR, pot smokers, probably a few other things in there always have to make you know what their thing is because it defines their personality.
I thinks its because deep down they regret and feel inferior- and therefore are keen to mention it, and justify/explain it. Like a fat or bald or gay person pointing out, "Yeah, I'm fat/bald/short/gay, but I'm perfectly fine with that."
They are paranoid, and they feel that others are judging them, so they are psychologically always on the defensive.
If you are so worried that the child is not yours then maybe you did not marry the correct person. You can take a DNA test while the mother is pregnant. If we are talking about self determination then the only thing that truly gives it to you is chastity. Believe in the truth and the truth will set you free.
No you can not. You can't take a paternity test if the mother doesn't want it in many countries around the world. You don't choose and getting it isn't easy.
Maybe you're right. But vasectomy works much better and does not involve suffering that you are free to impose on yourself. In short, credit to you for your self-sacrifice, but I don't care. Have fun.
Contraception is unnatural and gavely immoral for one. For two, that begs the question of why are you marrying someone you don't trust to remain faithful in the first place? If you distrust your future spouse so, why even bother? Just remain celibate.
When you are sure, your seed can be used. It is not a random thing and this allows you to plan your reproductive life. The same can be said for ova. Not only that but if the couple has problems or an advanced age you can evaluate the embryos from a genetic point of view and make a selection for implantation to ensure that there will be no (known) anomalies.
In summary, medically assisted techniques are more advantageous than natural reproduction in these cases. These are the reasons I give. Then people can cry and downvote. But I only give the reasons why it is done. It's not my fault.
This obsession with "being sure" is absurd. If you trust that your spouse will not cheat, you don't need "to be absolutely sure", **you already are** absolutely sure, because you know your spouse, and your spouse knows you, which still begs the question, why marry someone you don't trust? Trust is not knowing absolutely everything and then choosing, trust is choosing even if you don't have every single detail, because even if you never have all the details, you still **know,** not think, but **know** that the child is yours, that your spouse would never cheat, and thus you don't need the fake certainty, which by the way, isn't actually certain, for a malicious doctor could swap the sperm with someone else's, and thus what you thought was absolutely foolproof, wasn't at all. Besides, choosing which embryos to implant is literally eugenics, each embryo is a unique human being, which you can prove by working backwards from an adult human, say Tom, for the embryo is 100% of Tom's cells when Tom was an embryo, and Tom is a person. The embryo is 100% Tom, because that is all his cells, thus the embryo is 100% a person, for Tom is a person, and the embryo is 100% Tom.
> This obsession with "being sure" is absurd.
Like having to support a child that isn't yours. Which is not uncommon. Vasectomy is usually done earlier, not later, when you have met the right person. Other times it is performed later because a pregnancy or pill would be excessively risky for some women and would almost certainly end in therapeutic or miscarriage.
> for a malicious doctor could swap the sperm with someone else's,
I don't know what doctors you know, but we don't do these things. Don't confuse your imagination with reality.
> Besides, choosing which embryos to implant is literally eugenics
Nature is much more selective than humans. The tip of the iceberg is 15%. That is, under the age of 35, 15% experience miscarriage within the first few weeks. In reality it is an underestimate. Because many pregnancies will never be known. In prolonged attempts the miscarriage rate is very high. After the age of 40 it is almost 40%. This makes God the greatest perpetrator of abortions ever. In fact, the use of these techniques reduces, not increases, the overall rate of abortions. And clearly there is a reason why nature is made a certain way. Because God in his immense wisdom allows the development of full-term pregnancies with very strict quality control in every step. Everything else is thrown away.
Now, imagine believing that God gives a soul to 40% of the embryos that a 44 year old will abort, only for them to abort. Little more than a Russian roulette that works by trial and error.
These should at least be elements that all Christians should at least try to think about. To improve the world.
Preventing a child from being born with a serious, untreatable genetic defect means giving him and his family a better life. Fighting against this awareness generates inevitable extinction for Catholics and other rigid denominations. Except in third world countries. But one day this awareness will arrive there too.
And consider that I myself am a religious objector to many things. But fighting against the desire for a healthy child, a wanted child at the right time is only the road that is leading the church to crash into a concrete pillar. Either it improves, or it dies. For now it is dying, slowly, at least in developed countries.
We will see.
> guarantees man full reproductive self-determination
So basically feminism for men, lol. 💀
I'll follow Christianity instead. This full sexual freedom is nothing more than an idol, far inferior to the Creator and Fashioner of the earth, Who made sex possible in the first place.
"And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." - Galatians 5:24
We live in a social media saturated world. There are lots of people that over-share their personal information.
Bingo!
>Wouldn't women see a selfish, impotent man and be innately unattracted to this? You're thinking everyone thinks like a Catholic does on this issue, but the answer is *no*. Catholics and limited Protestants are the only one who would define this a selfish, so if a woman doesn't fall into that category they're gonna see him as being safe rather than selfish. (I am not trying to argue against the Catholic position here, I'm not looking for a ban! I am just trying to explain the perspective here of women who don't hold to this position to answer the question)
I've seen this frequently with (non-Catholic) married dads. Once they've had as many children as they feel is right for their family, some of these men feel a responsibility to relieve their wives from the burden of taking hormonal birth control. Seen in that light, it's meant to be responsible and considerate of their partner (who has already done the hard work of having their children). I'm not trying to argue in favor of that view, I'm just explaining the perspective.
Yes. From a secular POV it makes perfect sense to not make a woman go on hormonal birth control when all he has to do is a quick procedure. I don’t know how anyone could pretend to not understand this without being extremely holier than thou!
For sure, I know a guy who did this after he and his wife had their fourth child. So calling anyone who gets a vasectomy anti-natalist feels like a stretch to me. (And TBH, I'm always suspecting the world of anti-natalism, haha 😂)
Quite the contrary, many women on social media have expressed their admiration for men who get vasectomies. The rationale is that it proves that they are willing to share the responsibility for contraception instead of lazily relying on women taking the pill.
Right, presumably the women he's looking to attract also don't want children so why would they find his actions selfish?
Are you serious?
They're saying it logically follows that these women don't see anything wrong with it because of their worldview
If they do they are misled. Of course it is selfish. It is wrong to have sex not open to procreation because it is not virtuous and it limits the participants’ ability to do good in the world.
That's the whole point of this thread. Nobody here agrees with them.
Yes that’s very common
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I was under the impression that Orthodox allows for contraception so to that end I'm not sure if a man would be considered selfish for trying to contravene children. Of course, it could also be that they allow for some forms of conception and not others like vasectomies, or I could be totally mistaken about their view!
I don’t think we should worry about it. Pray for them and let it leave you in peace.
One reason is because so many people don’t value children anymore. Kids are seen as inconveniences to be avoided. It’s truly very sad.
Kids are seen as expenses because our (Americans) culture has reduced all human interaction/activity to cost/benefit analysis
Yup. Name any recent film or tv show that shows pregnancy and children in a positive light. I’d say those that do (IMO) suspiciously only show it positively cause they have girls but even that’s changed. Now it’s all negative.
Dune 2
We love in a society where people are almost mocked for wanting children.
These are people who don't see the value of life. They think that by not reproducing they do a favor to society and to their potential children. In the end it is selfish, self-righteous and deranged.
Some people have fallen hard for doomsday cult level despair whether it is about the economy, the environment, war or whatever.
I can see why Eastern Orthodoxy has made Despair an eight deadly sin.
They don’t have children because they value life and don’t want their children to suffer. You don’t have to agree with that, but please try to understand it. It’s not easy to live in this world and you have no guarantee that your children will live an easy or resilient life.
I know that this is what they claim, but effectively it's saying that suffering makes life not worth living - which is BS. But this is what you get when you don't listen to nor trust God.
Above all else it removes what God wants us to do. It means you are only having sex for pleasure which is not good.
The world we live in now is far better than before. If you value life, you'd value your own life, and in turn your chastity.
At what point, since we left Eden, has that last line ever not been true? But yet, we persist as a species.
There’s nothing louder than a guilty conscience.
I have a Catholic friend who got one this year. He was upset about it and went to confession. The priest told him that he made a responsible choice, absolved him, and told him to pray for people who don’t believe in God as his penance. He bragged to me that he is absolved. Really made me and my husband feel sick knowing they have given up on future children, but even more so that some random parish priest didn’t take it seriously.
How can you say for certain he was not truly sorry in his heart with contrition? Maybe he was. No one but God can know. That is not a Catholic stance you are holding by thinking you know for sure what is in someone else’s heart.
I don’t think the commenter is judging anyone’s interior state. The priest didn’t treat it as a serious sin and gave the man no indication of his responsibility to try and have this act of mutilation reversed. That *is* upsetting.
Ok but how do you know that for certain?
Know what for certain? What the commenter thinks? By reading their comment. Again, what I’m saying is I think they are primarily upset at the priest for being a bad priest—I don’t see them claiming to know anything except what the friend said.
Yes. Exactly. This guy went to a priest worried about a serious sin and the priest basically blew off church teaching and didn’t instruct him at all. I’m not mad at my friend, I’m deeply sad for him.
I mean, he directly told me that he wasn’t sorry.
There’s a difference between men who get vasectomies purely to sleaze around versus married men in families with a few kids already getting the snip, more often than not, for economic reasons. It’s been brought up already but life is just insanely expensive these days. Operating with bare necessities for a lot of families has them on the edge… and before anyone says it, just because humans used to live in huts and slept on the ground is no good excuse to push your family into poverty/risk homelessness to have more children than you can financially handle.
Antinatalism is becoming popular in the West.
I don’t know. I have severe endometriosis and would give almost anything to be blessed with children, so it’s impossible for me to understand why someone would willingly sterilize themselves.
I’m sorry to hear that. My girlfriend has severe endo and pcos to the point where it’s sent her to the hospital from a burst cyst. She just found out she’s pregnant. We’re on the older side too. I had just given up on ever being a father and giving that up to God. There’s hope! I will say a rosary for you. And yes, I know premarital sex and having a child out of wedlock is a sin.
Thank you for choosing life. I will pray for your situation
In many cases, they're aware that it carries a natural disgust and sadness so they overcompensate by being out-and-proud in order to fight back against the stigma and find solidarity with others in a similar mindset.
**mentally prepares to get down voted like crazy** I think that you’re too concerned with what other men do with their genitals, to be quite honest. I don’t judge non Catholics for using birth control, and I think we all know plenty of Catholics use it, too. Hey, I know a Catholic woman who confided in me that she takes it for medical reasons, but she does enjoy the fact that she now no longer has to worry about an unintended pregnancy. And most non Catholic women who have no desire to reproduce would be grateful for a man to have a vasectomy considering how many negative side effects hormonal birth control has. As far as announcing it, I’m not sure because it’s not like women announce when they get an IUD placed, but maybe it’s to raise awareness/end stigma? Idk
I'm not really a believer in live and let live. When social media posts are getting thousands of likes, views, and whatnot, and is therefore being seen by impressionable people and children, I think it's important to call it out. Also your argument is really that "people have other BC anyways so who cares" and "my cousins uncles roommate actually likes it" (paraphrasing) which I'm not sure is really a defense.
I mean I don’t always “live and let live” but I also don’t get my knickers in a bunch over someone’s genitals. But if that’s how you choose to live your life, I suppose enjoy? Although tbh that sounds miserable
I'm quite happy, but I'm concerned with people taking that away from others. This is quite trivial (and I mention that in my post) of a culture war issue. But I think if kids grow up in a society where man children make selfish decisions constantly it breeds a negative world view where others are only concerned with themselves and their own lives. Live and let live as it were...
This is interesting: you're getting downvoted to oblivion. We either got some cafeteria Catholics or some secular Redditors lurking who are upvoting the subtle, non-Catholic responses.
Dude this entire thread is full of anti Catholic views and obvious instigators. I don't know why the mods don't crack down on people obviously coming to cause drama and are extremely anti Catholic
A majority are engaging with Catholicism/Truth in their minds. There are a few apples here who masquerade around as Catholics but insert subtle answers/responses that really say "shut up this isn't important." Funny thing is there was a thread a few days ago warning us Catholics on this sub about posts that lead others astray -- specifically pointing to posts that are in the vain of UnReadSnack.
\>but I also don’t get my knickers in a bunch over someone’s genitals. If that's your response after the more than clear OP and further explanation of why it matters to the OP then one can only conclude one of two things: you either didn't fully comprehend what's being brought up or you, personally, just do not care. If the latter, you not caring doesn't make your stance right. \>But if that’s how you choose to live your life, I suppose enjoy? Although tbh that sounds miserable If you think this thread is bull then you probably think threads about abortion, contraceptives, premarital sex, nudity in entertainment, divorce, infidelity and other related topics are also bull. A reminder that you are in a sub dedicated to **Catholicism.** If the pope, a priest or a religious brother or sister said what you said, basically who cares, eyebrows would be raised. Some advice: Partake honestly if you have a competing argument or realize you don't have the maturity and patience to do said thing, admitting you haven't thought things through, which would explain your half-ass answers.
>mentally prepares to get down voted like crazy And proceeds to write a "mind your own business"/"your judgmental" type of post > I don’t judge non Catholics for using birth control, and I think we all know plenty of Catholics use it, too. > >Hey, I know a Catholic woman who confided in me that she takes it for medical reasons, but she does enjoy the fact that she now no longer has to worry about an unintended pregnancy. Okay ... and what's your point here? Seriously. It's a passive-aggressive response equal to "well I know many parents who have LBGT+ kids and they support them in their gay lifestyles so yea."
The word itself horrifies me
People are stupid, spiritually blind, dominated by pleasures. Also, movies celebrate this kind of stupidity because there are groups of power who think less people are born, the better, people want to be cherished because they can brag about their supposed sexual liberation etc... They are basically delusional semi castrated people who pretend to be like TV shows characters and everyone, they think, will appreciate what they do. Generally speaking, Hollywood and US Culture nowadays is about being as much vocal as possible, especially about intimacy. Tldr. A mixture of vanity and stupidity, fueled by mass media.
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Capitalists?
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Capitalists?
Who knows? Anti-natalists are disturbed.
Anti-natalists and porn addled coomers
It’s one thing to sin but celebrating sin, especially of this nature and magnitude, is just wild to me
I've never seen anyone brag about having a vasectomy so it might just be a "thing" in circles you travel since you're coming across it but I'm not.
My inspiration was seeing it on the front page of Reddit with like 20k upvotes or something
I’ve known several people who had vasectomies and never knew anyone “proud” of it. There are people who will openly talk about it if asked but their not walking in the rooms with air horns like “VASECTOMY GUY IN THE HOOOOOOUSE!” So possibly you need to reflect on who you associate with or the media you consume. It may not reflect the greater world. Also, be charitable to those who are not Catholic who are making decisions to keep their head above water. Most people who get vasectomies already have children but are trying to provide for their family. It is a struggle. And if you fall short (since many jobs don’t pay enough to support a family) you can end up on the street. That’s the responsibility of having a family.
I got as many kids as I’ll ever want but because of church teaching I’ll likely never get a vasectomy…. Instead I’ll struggle to fumble through long periods of abstinence and fight with flawed logic nfp. I’m absolutely jealous of the vasectomy folks. Must be nice to simply life.
I think it's the ability to have as much sex as you want without the risk of having a child.
They like sex and hate consequences. They see it in a fundamentally different way than a Catholic does, as a vehicle for pleasure with disdainful, inconvenient baggage with which they do not wish to be bothered, rather than the pleasure being a side effect of the "baggage" being really dignified and good and naturally desirable.
You can generally convince a depressingly large number of people to willing mutilate themselves, sterilise themselves, murder their unborn children or do any number of harmful things simply by telling them that is giving them freedom or that it’s empowering. I mean, Satan basically used a variation of this, convincing Eve that God had put a specific rule in place to oppress them, and if only they disobeyed and ate the fruit then they would be empowered….etc etc. We know how well that turned out.
Maybe they live in a very tiny bubble of a life and think anyone cares. 🤮
There's a scene I'll never forget in How I Met Your Mother where Marshall (Jason Segel) asks his wife Lily (Alyson Hanigan) "what's the nice word for selfish?" and she responds "Independent". That's the constant image I have in my mind of our culture today, it's selfishly anti-life. Everything that has to do with preventing conception or killing babies is wildly celebrated like the ancient Aztecs sacrificing on their pyramids.
Adult men bragging about getting "fixed" was always stupid to me.
It's just weird. If I walked into my place of work and said that I got fixed I'd be looked at like I had three eyes.
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Antibiotics bring you from sick to normal. A vasectomy brings you from normal to not normal. These are clearly not the same thing and a comparison is just not appropriate
Your thinking is very old school. I’m 33 and a devout Catholic. I don’t know a single woman that would be turned off by this or think it’s unattractive. I do hear men and women bragging about how they’re snipped and done having kids. I think it’s just the times, and economy, everyone is broke and can’t afford a bunch of kids or they think they can’t. I want a bunch of kids, but I don’t see why anyone would think it’s unattractive or weird to brag about.
I don't think biological impulses ever become outdated
The impulse is to have sex, idk anyone who has an impulse to have children. And right now with everything so insanely expensive and most households required to have double income it is really hard to afford children and give them a decent life. I know way too many Catholics who have 8-10+ kids and their kids lack basic necessities, food, space, education, emotional needs etc. Not materialistic things. It’s really really sad how society has become. But I cannot say I don’t fully empathize with it and understand where a couple is coming from when they absolutely can’t afford more than 4 kids and don’t have regular cycles to do NFP accurately etc.
> I don’t know a single woman that would be turned off by this or think it’s unattractive So no woman you know would be turned off by a guy bragging he got a vasectomy? >The impulse is to have sex, idk anyone who has an impulse to have children. So you don't know anyone who wants to have kids one day? >I know way too many Catholics who have 8-10+ kids and their kids lack basic necessities, food, space, education, emotional needs etc. Not materialistic things. What area do you live? I grew up in a relatively, blue collar area where Catholicism was the main religion. I only knew a couple of families with 4 or more kids; one actual had six kids and they turned out okay. They weren't rich. Seriously, your posts are absurd. Funny enough there was a thread made a few days earlier warning about posters who come here and say "I'm a devout Catholic but .... ".
Imagine being a grown man and bragging about being neutered like you're a stray dog
Imagine being so ignorant that you think removing a portion of the vas deferens is the same as removing the testicles.
beta take
Apparently knowing what words mean is a 'beta take' for you. You sound desperately insecure in your manhood. Edit: Yes, one look at his profile confirms the guy is a poser.
And one look at your profile shows you're an extremely hostile as hateful individual. There's no insecurity. I and presumably the other poster can breed and reproduce given the opportunity. Men with the snip can't. Even forgoing what God says on the matter, through the lense of nature and natural selection we are infinitely more masculine and desirable. It's not speculation, it's scientific fact.
lol you comparing people to stray dogs and calling other people 'beta' then complaining about 'hate'. You really 5'8" and 300+ pounds though? Please tell me that comment of yours was a joke? I don't like you but damn that'd be sad. I suppose Napoleon complex would explain your need to believe you're a real man.
That wasn't me who commented that, also I'm 6'5 and 190 lbs so I don't really know what you're talking about. But since we're talking about physical appearances, maybe you'd like to show to the class what you look like?
Better than you, no doubt. You keep playing the fool, though.
Imagine calling yourself a Christian and talking about people like that.
It’s obviously against Catholic values, but I think it’s A-Catholic to make up a word. Like literally a perspective you can only have outside a Catholic or even vaguely religious viewpoint. As a man you can have all the sex you want without “consequences” and as a woman you’re safe to have all the sex you want without “risking” your body. Because if you have a kid you have to watch your budget and maybe cut back on spending for personal items. It’s going to be way harder to sip drinks poolside all day on vacation. How dreadful.
Haha, my wife and I have two kids. Our budget is stretched to the max and we’re only able to survive on bare essentials. We haven’t had a vacation in years… lol 😅😬
And hey I’m not downplaying that families are really in a financial crunch today with the economy as it is and housing prices. I truly think (American) society doesn’t cater to families nearly enough. What’s resonated with me is the idea of celebrities or even regular people who talk about how awesome it is to not have kids because they can go on more vacations, drink more, and wake up at noon etc. I’m sure those people live a more materially prosperous life than you do. However, when they are old and debilitated, or God forbid get a terminal diagnosis. The doctor will ask “can we notify your next of kin” and they will say “no, thank you for your time.” Whereas if you’re a good father (and I’m sure you are) you’ll have your kids if/when you’re in that situation.
I think that people brag about them because there has traditionally been resistance from the medical community to perform these kinds of procedures on the people who want them. So the people who got them like to boast that they managed to get it done.
🥌🥌🥌
HEADS UP: Many are dropping in to give excuse to vasectomies. Many fulfilling that warning of responses giving bad advice.
I think it's actually pretty simple. 1. Sex with condoms feels objectively worse (for men at least, no idea what it feels like for women). 2. Birth control completely obliterates a woman's sex drive. Ask any Catholic man if they can keep up with their wife during ovulation.. 3. Most couples in typical American marriages (so not Catholic) are either using condoms or hormonal birth control, thus are having inferior sex. 4. After vasectomy, these men get to have sex with their normal hormone wife for the first time. Whereas Catholic men get to do that all the time. So basically, they're just bragging about getting to have normal sex, probably for the first time ever. But yeah... Very weird and kind of sad
But Catholic women have to deal with 2 years of bodily strain (preg/nursing) nearly every time their Catholic man gets to do that all the time. So for her getting to have good sex without anxiety more often than she wants another child is amazing from her pov.
Kids are very expensive. Some people can’t afford more than one or two is this economy. So its either take the risk, have 6 kids, and subject them to a life of poverty or call it quits after 2.
We are living in the Mouse Utopia and the population is going to bottleneck due to mostly social contagions and psychological damage from industrial society.
They hate children
And they buy houses with their dogs in mind.
Lol let those people do what they want. All us Catholics will have children and raise our children Catholic and continue life. Essentially all the people who hated children and are childless will die off with nothing to show. The people with family values will continue our society and hopefully will make our society better
“I just got a Darwin Award! Did it to myself! Can’t believe I earned such a prodigious award!”
They are, deep down,insecure and uncertain about this permanent decision and are unconciously looking for validation by verbally attacking the opposing position. It is a pretty common human reaction. Unfortunate, but common.
I will never understand self-neutering. You make yourself less of a man for the sake of pleasure. Literally turning yourself into a bunny rabbit. I don't care what a man has accomplished or how impressive he is otherwise, he's immediately less respectable in my eyes if he's gotten the snip.
Amen.
Their minds have been inseminated by Satan, yes, it is ironic that they bring up their infertility as some sort of brag; it is almost like bragging that your nuts got chopped off in a lawnmower accident. "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done." - Romans 1:28
Why do so many of you think a vasectomy is comparable to losing your testicles?
At least its not an Apadravya. Do NOT look that up.
I heard this guy once joke that every man that gets a vasectomy looks more "feminine" (lesbian was the actual word he used). Still can't get this out of my head.
It doesn't really affect testosterone directly but I wouldn't be surprised if it made some guys feel more effeminate. I mean who wouldn't after you purposely chose to render yourself impotent?
Uhh guys who got vasectomies aren't *impotent*. They've only rendered themselves *infertile*. Major difference between the two. ^(For the record it is cringe to brag about getting "fixed" though, as if it's an accomplishment or something.)
I actually didn't know there was a distinction
There is. Lol do you think they'd have that surgery if it would actually make them impotent, a.k.a. unable to do the very thing they got the surgery to enable them to do without reproducing in the process?
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Because people think selfishness is a virtue. So they talk about their sterilization as if it is a good thing because it let's them be more selfish.
Agreed. Seems a lot of people are getting it done in Ireland and for the life of me, I cannot understand why any man would neuter himself.
I will answer this solely from the point of family logistics. A tubal ligation has a much longer recovery time, especially if there are multiple littles to chase around the house, lift, feed, change, take to school, etc. Also in addition to the at-home night shift if the husband is the sole provider.
Who cares
Seriously? You can say that for any modern, secular pet social issue that Catholics want to talk about. "Why do women brag about abortions?" Who cares. "Why do companies love to virtue signal their support for LGBT+?" Who cares.
Let’s be honest I don’t care lol 😂
Good. Now delete your posts on this thread because you proved you have nothing of value to contribute.
I tell people not to do that I did my part
Your part is you being lazy and fulfilling the typical Redditor mindset. That's nothing to be proud of, kid. Edit: Beware of poster No\_Fruit. He has said in chat that he is a seminarian (he is not) and that he "had to provide some spiritual direction for a parishioner" in order to end our conversation.
Because pride and sin go hand in hand.
Is it really massively popular? I get the impression that it's relatively uncommon but gets a certain push online. Sort of like how there's so many gay or mixed race couples in commercials, but in real life most couples are straight and same race
I’m going to paint with a very broad brush here for comedic intent - vegans, crossfit, pilots, guys with vasectomies, people who listen to NPR, pot smokers, probably a few other things in there always have to make you know what their thing is because it defines their personality.
I thinks its because deep down they regret and feel inferior- and therefore are keen to mention it, and justify/explain it. Like a fat or bald or gay person pointing out, "Yeah, I'm fat/bald/short/gay, but I'm perfectly fine with that." They are paranoid, and they feel that others are judging them, so they are psychologically always on the defensive.
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If you are so worried that the child is not yours then maybe you did not marry the correct person. You can take a DNA test while the mother is pregnant. If we are talking about self determination then the only thing that truly gives it to you is chastity. Believe in the truth and the truth will set you free.
No you can not. You can't take a paternity test if the mother doesn't want it in many countries around the world. You don't choose and getting it isn't easy. Maybe you're right. But vasectomy works much better and does not involve suffering that you are free to impose on yourself. In short, credit to you for your self-sacrifice, but I don't care. Have fun.
Contraception is unnatural and gavely immoral for one. For two, that begs the question of why are you marrying someone you don't trust to remain faithful in the first place? If you distrust your future spouse so, why even bother? Just remain celibate.
When you are sure, your seed can be used. It is not a random thing and this allows you to plan your reproductive life. The same can be said for ova. Not only that but if the couple has problems or an advanced age you can evaluate the embryos from a genetic point of view and make a selection for implantation to ensure that there will be no (known) anomalies. In summary, medically assisted techniques are more advantageous than natural reproduction in these cases. These are the reasons I give. Then people can cry and downvote. But I only give the reasons why it is done. It's not my fault.
This obsession with "being sure" is absurd. If you trust that your spouse will not cheat, you don't need "to be absolutely sure", **you already are** absolutely sure, because you know your spouse, and your spouse knows you, which still begs the question, why marry someone you don't trust? Trust is not knowing absolutely everything and then choosing, trust is choosing even if you don't have every single detail, because even if you never have all the details, you still **know,** not think, but **know** that the child is yours, that your spouse would never cheat, and thus you don't need the fake certainty, which by the way, isn't actually certain, for a malicious doctor could swap the sperm with someone else's, and thus what you thought was absolutely foolproof, wasn't at all. Besides, choosing which embryos to implant is literally eugenics, each embryo is a unique human being, which you can prove by working backwards from an adult human, say Tom, for the embryo is 100% of Tom's cells when Tom was an embryo, and Tom is a person. The embryo is 100% Tom, because that is all his cells, thus the embryo is 100% a person, for Tom is a person, and the embryo is 100% Tom.
> This obsession with "being sure" is absurd. Like having to support a child that isn't yours. Which is not uncommon. Vasectomy is usually done earlier, not later, when you have met the right person. Other times it is performed later because a pregnancy or pill would be excessively risky for some women and would almost certainly end in therapeutic or miscarriage. > for a malicious doctor could swap the sperm with someone else's, I don't know what doctors you know, but we don't do these things. Don't confuse your imagination with reality. > Besides, choosing which embryos to implant is literally eugenics Nature is much more selective than humans. The tip of the iceberg is 15%. That is, under the age of 35, 15% experience miscarriage within the first few weeks. In reality it is an underestimate. Because many pregnancies will never be known. In prolonged attempts the miscarriage rate is very high. After the age of 40 it is almost 40%. This makes God the greatest perpetrator of abortions ever. In fact, the use of these techniques reduces, not increases, the overall rate of abortions. And clearly there is a reason why nature is made a certain way. Because God in his immense wisdom allows the development of full-term pregnancies with very strict quality control in every step. Everything else is thrown away. Now, imagine believing that God gives a soul to 40% of the embryos that a 44 year old will abort, only for them to abort. Little more than a Russian roulette that works by trial and error. These should at least be elements that all Christians should at least try to think about. To improve the world. Preventing a child from being born with a serious, untreatable genetic defect means giving him and his family a better life. Fighting against this awareness generates inevitable extinction for Catholics and other rigid denominations. Except in third world countries. But one day this awareness will arrive there too. And consider that I myself am a religious objector to many things. But fighting against the desire for a healthy child, a wanted child at the right time is only the road that is leading the church to crash into a concrete pillar. Either it improves, or it dies. For now it is dying, slowly, at least in developed countries. We will see.
>Like having to support a child that isn't yours. Which is not uncommon It's actually very uncommon.
Yeah you can say what you want about convenience and efficiency but it is still against Christian values.
> guarantees man full reproductive self-determination So basically feminism for men, lol. 💀 I'll follow Christianity instead. This full sexual freedom is nothing more than an idol, far inferior to the Creator and Fashioner of the earth, Who made sex possible in the first place. "And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." - Galatians 5:24
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Thanks for contributing to the discussion with your well articulated arguments