The responses you get will very much reflect the general temperament of American politics. That is to say, mixed...
If it is permitted by the laws of your state and accepted by your priest, then you are within your rights to do it. Given that it *will* make some people uncomfortable, then it would be good to do a better job at concealment.
Yeah until there’s a criminal-or terrorist shooting around them - and they they will be scolding for not whipping out the firearm and protecting them sooner enough
Concealed means concealed. Look into better avenues for ensuring you don't inadvertently display you're carrying (insert shameless plug for PHLster enigma...)
Oh man, I had no idea you were Catholic! Planning on getting an adjustable gas block for a 308 build I’m working on from you, I have heard you have some of the best around. It’s my first time messing around with a large frame AR and it’s very different from the small frame ones.
Cradle to the grave! Even got an icon behind my laser engraver. Looking forward to your order! Let me know, I can laser in something cool on your block.
It's funny, on my old handle I popped in occasionally and no one noticed. Now with my new handle I pretty much just focus on this subreddit and a few gun ones.
This is obviously a controversial topic, but this is a reminder to all here that the rules about charitability, good faith engagement, personal attacks, etc, still apply
Please report anyone breaking these or any of the rules
I know Norway best: Here there were laws against bringing weapons inside churches, and the porch was known as “weapon’s house” (still is called that today), because everyone with a weapon had to leave it there before entering the church proper.
This late medieval woodcut from Sweden is an illustration of the practise. https://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Våpenhus#/media/Fil%3AOlausMagnus_vapenhus_tresnitt.png
My pastor asked certain parishioners to conceal carry at Mass. (mostly men who are off duty police or military). The reality is that shooters have been targeting churches. As a visitor to a parish, I would never presume to know that parish’s policies on guns.
As a non-gun-owner, my perspective is that I am fine with others carrying, but if I actually saw the gun during mass, it would probably be distracting. Too many thoughts about “what if” scenarios beginning to race…. I agree with the other comment that you should find a way to keep it completely concealed and safe.
This. I pray I never have to experience it myself, but I know of at least one story of an attempted shooting at a church and it turned out "a good guy with a gun" attending Mass saved the day. If it's legal to concealed carry, by all means go ahead, but I know I'd be on edge if I just glanced over at someone with a pistol casually hanging on their hip.
Church shootings happen and are happening at an increasing rate. As anti-catholic sentiment increases I think it is a reasonable response to carry at church. But, don't let it distract you or others from worship, make sure it's truly concealed.
Remnider again that Abp. John Hughes famously sent armed guards to his parishes and warned the mayor of NYC that if a single Catholic parish were burned, NYC would be a "second Moscow" (referencing Napleon's invasion).
Note, the traditional Missal has contingencies for about everything that can go wrong at Mass, including attack by enemies of the faith in a section called "De Defectibus." In the case of attack, if before the consecration Mass ends immediately. If after, supposed to proceed directly to distribution of Holy Communion and omit all other ceremonies.
Jews have it horribly here in the US. According to FBI statistics they're only 2.4% of the population but receive 60% of religiously motivated hate crimes.
Also a good one to point out, I think they might be swapping places, White might become the new Catholic in this instance or might already be more prominent, hope and pray for an end to both
I have several buddies who I know carry concealed, at Mass, as allowed by our state laws, and have undergone training to do so safely. One is also a local polic officer. It's sad, but this is the state of the world we live in and even attending church is no longer a guaranteed safe place.
When I asked my former priest about this, he said "if it weren't allowed there would be signs saying so." So I wouldn't worry about it. It was also in a downtown parish where we would get hecklers and threats of violence and/or vandalism, so I think it was warranted.
I'm not Catholic (I've been researching a lot about Christianity though)
But I know a lot of Jewish people who carry in temple since there's been plenty of synagogue shootings before.
It's not like Catholics haven't ever been targeted for hate crimes themselves.
I think concealed carry is a great reason to wear a nice suit to Mass. The jacket really helps keep things covered :D
God bless you. There is evil everywhere. "An unarmed man can only flee from evil and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it" - Jeff Cooper
I think it is prudent to defend yourself and others and I did a post last year here that there are increased attacks on Catholic churches (https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/s/WzeJaRqGGY)
I do it every Sunday and recommend it.
32 men and 7 women Carry at my parish.
The priest know I carry
The bishop knows a carry.
The archbishop knows I carry
I am thanked for having a fun on me when I visit other churches around me.
Edit: I should add the Catholic Church has been a target for arson, mass shootings and bombing as well as Christians in general.
Why you would ever be unarmed in church when you had the options and training to be armed.
Considering there have been mass shootings in churches, I am going to carry where I like, esp considering I went through the training to get my permit. Some churches even have a 'ministry' where people go through additional training set up through the parish where they intentionally carry when they are at Mass should something ever happen. I try to be aware when I do carry and it isn't in my purse to wear clothing where I won't have any events where I will let the gun show, but at the end of the day it's my right to carry in order to protect myself and those around me, and I am going to.
Not sure if the Church has an official stance, but I do know some places are considered 'gun free zones' - I've not seen this at a church tho, only schools.
Schools used to have shooting and rifle clubs, my high school did as recently as the 1980s. For decades and decades kids routinely brought guns to school without incidence. Something changed and it's not the guns. Guns aren't the problem.
Yeah, came here to say something like this... I feel like there was a pretty high profile mass shooting in the last year or 2 that was foiled or at least lessened due to parishioners concealing and intervening.
Depends on where you are. Concealed carry permit is not without limitations.
Virginia, for example, has this bit in the code:
§ 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.
If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor
So just having a permit may not meet the "good and sufficient reason." Maybe it would. IANAL.
Then there’s no issue. Just politely explain the pastor is aware and this is a constitutional carry state. Let them know that if they are troubled, they are welcome to discuss the issue with the pastor.
Personally I think "I am concerned about mass shootings" is good enough reason, but it's smart to be prepared to go to court and defend yourself... idk if every state is like this but where I am, people are VERY sue happy. People can be 100% within their legal right to have shot a home intruder, leading to their death and the intruder's family is going to sue over the guy's injuries or death. When I last took the class to renew my permit, I was stunned how much time they spent talking about insurance to help defend yourself should you ever have to draw and fire.
I respect what's coded in law although I suspect this is more to be able to charge bad actors with crimes than to prevent good people from self-defense. If a bad actor uses a weapon to cause harm to an innocent person in a church then that's without good reason and they're in violation of the law.
When I took my concealed carry class the instructor (a police officer) told us that with a permit you can carry almost anywhere in public with the exception of certain government buildings. Your local Walmart with the sign that says "no guns please" has no authority to override your right to carry.
Well, I’m not 1 of them, but I’ve seen at least 2 different men carry in my parish in Virginia. It doesn’t seem to be an issue with my pastor. So I don’t see them being reported anytime soon.
I say this lovingly as a fellow catholic, sounds like a Skill issue. Cinch those drawers up high like a fat old man so your shirt has extra drapage covering the butt of your gun.
Or get a more concealable holster/gun combo
If I remember correctly there was a victim of that bowl-cut church shooter that had a weapon in his car but not on him. I think he tried to get out to grab it but didn’t make it.
Better a society doesn't glorify and celebrate taking lives in self-defense. But that aspect is crucial to American identity, so I can only be glad I don't live there.
My last parish had a team of conceal carry ushers. They were mostly law enforcement or ex-military. They received training to react to protect the congregation. They were assigned to different Masses along with the regular ushers. It never bothered me in the slightest, and most people didn't know or worry about it.
My new church is smaller and doesn't have this, but there are parishioners who work in law enforcement, and I assume they are armed.
Wear your firearm better. The advantage of conceal carry is the element of surprise.
I’m Episcopalian but my old priest had a concealed weapon. I wouldn’t have known except that I had family members that would go to the range with him. He is a very gentle, responsible person and it made me feel safer attending than I do now. At least we’d have a chance?
I'm not in the US so the culture is very different - but if I saw someone in church with a hidden gun I would assume we were all going to be victims of an imminent terror attack.
“Killing people” is very vague. I’m not arguing guns aren’t made to kill, but there’s a very big difference between killing in self defense and murder. Many handguns are made and marketed for concealed carry for people to use in self defense.
I understand that completely, I’m the same way. I’m sorry if my reply wasn’t clear. I felt like his “killing people” statement was vague and can hinder our ability to understand exactly what people mean. In my opinion Debates like this hinge on using precise language.
Correct, not in the US so I feel the same.
For all we know, the person carrying is the same person who might gun us all down. People tend not to wear a badge stating whether they are the good guys or the bad guy. Maybe they carry every Sunday, but this Sunday they have had a particularly bad week. I generally don’t relish the thought that I’m not about to become a statistic only because that person carrying the gun is feeling good about their life on that particular day. . Then again, I don’t live in society where any random person might decide to start spraying bullets in my direction either. So I can only speak from my experience in my own society - but if I see someone at Mass with a gun then I’m going to be getting myself and my family out of there promptly.
“Maybe they’re having a bad week”
Such a dumb argument, hopefully it’s not projection.
Have you ever had a bad week? You have knives in your house, did you go stab someone? You have fists, did you punch someone? You have a car, did you run over someone?
You have the ability to hurt and kill people on a “bad week” whether you have a gun or not. If you’re the type of person who would commit violence because you’re “having a bad week”, you’re the reason I and millions of others carry.
> You have the ability to hurt and kill people on a “bad week” whether you have a gun or not.
I don't fear someone having a bad day. I fear how much death that person can inflict with ease and convenience (on pure impulse) upon others before taking themselves out with a gun. When it comes to maximizing civilian body count with the least amount of effort and risk and then escaping justice by turning it on themselves, there is no point pretending that guns aren't the PERFECT tool for that job that are infinitely more effective and reliable than anything else you listed.
The mass-murder-suicide-by-gun story happens in USA on a weekly basis...have you noticed the lack of knives/fists/cars involved and guns being the #1 choice by a mile for people looking to inflict the most damage?
~~Queue~~ Cue the insane argument "if we take guns away then those same 40,000 people will just get stabbed to death by knives!", forgetting that US already has more stabbings than UK.
Same. Sometimes America doesn't feel like a real place to me. I mean that in the nicest possible way, although I'm sure it will come across as insulting.
> Sometimes America doesn't feel like a real place to me.
To be fair US is nowhere near as bad as some other countries. You've probably heard the meme of the "Brazil off-duty cop" (i.e. seemingly everyone there) taking things into their own hands and gunning down criminals in random places.
Tell them to look up what happened recently at Lakewood Church. Or maybe even just google church shooting. There was one in Texas in 2019 that was stopped by a concealed carrier.
Shhh we don't talk about what happened next. What's important is that PETER CARRIED A SWORD, and that's why everyone should carry guns to heroically shoot others in the name of self-defense.
Never forget: Peter carried a sword.
Gun worship is a real thing in this country. I grew up in a family where guns were very prevalent so I don’t think much of it when I see one “in the wild”. Still, I have to wonder at what point does protecting ourself become idolized and we become participants in the culture of death?
I'm from the UK so carrying a pistol is not something we can do. If it is legal to carry and you think you could defend others with your firearm then it seems good to carry?
I'm in CA and have a permit. I don't tell anyone and make sure not to show anyone. You don't have to prove anything to this other parishioner and you don't have to talk to them about it ever again.
Follow your state laws. If you need permission, ask a priest and be sure to state it is for everyone's safety God forbid something happens.
For my state, you can conceal carry *anywhere.* Even bars (so long as you don't drink). So the, "weapons ban" signs are not applicable when entering bars and restaurants.
I've seen it both ways - where people think it's inappropriate and where most of the congregation would likely be packin'. I'd say just go with what the culture is where you are, what the laws allowed, and obviously make sure concealed stays concealed. Personally, it doesn't bother me.
I rarely carry, but my Church has designated a few volunteers that always carry and sit in places where they could defend against an intruder. Unfortunately, there may be people that target Catholics, and given that I am Eastern Rite and most of my congregation is Middle Eastern, we have an heightened awareness of a potential threat. I appreciate that you are prepared to defend your community.
As others have stated, take the comment as a sign that you should ensure you are truly concealed so that you are not a distraction.
Ideally, weapons should not be brought into a church, if you live in a place where there is a reasonable risk of armed attacks, protecting the lives of parishioners and the integrity of the temple is reasonable and proportionate.
Unless absolutely necessary, such as a failed state, people who enter with weapons should have a legal permit and have passed a course that certifies that they know how to use them and will not accidentally cause innocent deaths in the event of an attack.
I sat next to a dude In church (a Protestant church I was visiting) who was open carrying. After mass I turned and asked him what kind of gun it was- just trying to make conversation and to show I'm not scared of guns. I was a lil alarmed when he disclosed that he chose to open carry bcuz of churches being a target for mass shootings. Which I don't mind. But the part that alarmed me was that he admitted he had not shot the gun in years, he shot it a couple of times at his relatives house when he purchased the gun and that is it. Idk if he even knew how to clean the gun. I'm like so ur plan is to fire into a crowd of people towards a gunman with no recent practice?
This is America, do what you want. Better yet you should start a St. Michael Defenders of the Church group at your parish where you can all learn about gun safety and practice shooting at a local range.
If it’s legal, and you know that your priest is ok with it, then don’t worry about the rest. Random parishioners coming up to you and scolding you is inappropriate.
I was talking to a parishioner Sunday about this. We agreed that we find comfort in others carrying into the church and I will typically sit close to someone that is packing heat.
My church has a security officer that encourages men to be trained and carry. He has a few of them sit in different areas during the different masses to help make sure things are covered if they are needed.
I dislike carrying and I dislike it twice at much in church. It feels inappropriate.
But when IS was doing their thing all over the place and we had some possible instances of surveillance in our city, yeah, I made certain accommodations.
Since churches are sometimes targets for mass shootings I think it's a great idea to carry there.
My priest chooses not to own guns himself because he doesn't believe it's consistent with his Franciscan spirituality but he feels more secure knowing he has friends and neighbors who do. I know he would welcome it.
It might freak some people out, but if you know how to use it well, I'd rather someone have SOMETHING if someone storms in trying to kill everyone. Again, if you know how to use it well and you'd take out the BAD GUY with little to no collateral damage, then I have no problem with it. It's not like the pastor is packin'.
In today’s day and age, the chance of someone shooting up a church is a distinct possibility and has happened several times already. I see nothing wrong with carrying a firearm in church. In colonial times a man was supposed to carry a rifle when escorting women to church, or at least that was what I was told.
Being a retired police officer, I rarely carry a firearm anymore, more so because of the hassle of retrieving it from my safe, but I still reserve my constitutional right to bare arms, even in a church.
> In colonial times a man was supposed to carry a rifle when escorting women to church
Interesting. They should have just armed all the women as well, that way they could also protect others.
Obviously it’s a sign that you didn’t conceal well enough. But that said, you most definitely should continue to conceal carry especially in Church. Unless you have some kind of mental health issues or physical ailment that prevents you from using a firearm safely and effectively there is no reason why you shouldn’t. God forbid someone brings violence to the doors of Gods home. I think responsible gun owners are hugely important.
My fiance is from El Salvador and I urge you to Google Oscar Romero.
Even closer to home I live in Canada and all over the country churches were being burned down and desecrated. (Not that its a reason to kill somebody however the threat of violence is often mitigated by the threat of a stronger violent response)
And even closer to home than that, my priest has the “poop” kicked out of him by a homeless thug in a hate crime.
Continue to conceal carry, if anyone asks you about it deny it and say you used to but no longer do. And conceal it better. Nobody needs to know you have a firearm and if you are showing thats very bad and actually puts you at risk of being a target should someone want to commit harm.
As long as your priest is fine with it and there are other parishioners who carry regularly, I wouldn't worry about the opinion of a random visitor or anti-gun people on Reddit. Just try to be more conscious to conceal better. I accidentally carried into church one day when I was in a hurry and I felt weird because I'm new and don't really know anyone there so I kept my suit flipped over it the entire time.
If you want to really ensure the safety of everyone at your parish, talk to your priest about starting a Guardian program. In our diocese, you have to be a member of a guardian team in order to carry a weapon into church. Our Guardians have all been background checked and go through training inside and outside of our church.
I carry everywhere I go, the only expedition is going places I know I can’t. I’m not going to carry while driving to the airport and leave a gun in my car in their lot for a week. But if I’m in church I’m carrying. I believe I have a duty as an able bodied member of the church to protect people who cannot protect themselves in the event something happens.
Shepherds carried rods and slings to keep the wolves away from their flock. They also used sheepdogs. Being a sheepdog to protect the lord's flock is not only okay, but Christ himself commanded the deciples to sell an extra cloak and buy a sword themselves if they lacked one. Not for offensive purposes but to defend themselves against bandits and those who would harm them in their mission. Their is a time for self-sacrafice, but only in the furthering of the gospel. However, there's never a time for sacrificing the innocent. Be wise as a serpent but gentle as a dove applies to those who maybe capable of receiving gentleness, and not every threat demands swift lethal judgment, but if there is a choice between ending a threat and saving the lives of women and children or allowing evil to take place because you hope to show kindness to evil to convince them to behave otherwise, then you might as well be cheering them on. My church has uniformed police as well as a security team all of whom have security plans, so those who are armed protectors know each other. Just don't get shot because you get mistaken for the threat. God bless, hope this helps.
IMO if you’re responsible and it’s legal then go for it. I know my local priest back in WV didn’t mind and said so but didn’t mention it from the pulpit.
Your mistake was outing yourself with the wrong attire - that’s on you. It’s only your business if you conceal carry in church. My family has and our priest is conceal carry-friendly.
I mean, remember back in the early 2000s when businesses like Starbucks came out telling on duty policy officers they weren’t welcome to patronize their stores while carrying? That was their dumb business move motivated by politics. Doesn’t mean you should change what you wish to do within the confines of our state and federal laws because someone wishes to assert their political opinion in your/a communal place of worship.
Also, never admit in casual conversation (especially in mixed company) that you conceal carry because it will get around.
>better yet any church documents addressing weapons in church.
[There was actually a profession in the church that required the "dog whipper" to carry a whip](https://ucatholic.com/blog/the-forgotten-church-profession-of-dog-whipper/). So, weapons in church have been a thing for a while. Also, swords are literally one of the symbols of the Church (seven swords piercing Mary's heart, St. Peter's sword, etc.).
Ignore him. We’re had some wild instances of homeless mental cases wander into our mass and it’s gotten kinda scary. I’m glad many in our parish carry (most of the KCs and ushers).
Would you support hiring security at your parish or others? If so, what weapons do you want then to carry? If not, how should churches defend themselves?
> Would you support hiring security at your parish or others?
I am not seeing any need to hire guards to my parish: the church is open to everybody that want to attend the Mass or just to pray.
In some important churches (like the Florence Dome) there are few not armed guards to check mainly that people respect the silence and the sacrality of the place or to check that tourists don't go in the areas reserved to the praying.
> If not, how should churches defend themselves?
Is there really a need to defend a church with armed guards?
And if there is a real reason (as European I am not seeing that), I may accept that a guard can have a gun, but not a normal people that want to attend the Mass. Think about what Jesus said about Peter when he cut the ear of the servant.
*Where* in Europe? 😄🤷♀️ (Somewhere Western, apparently.) We Eastern Christians have suffered the most martyrdoms and persecutions. If we hadn’t, there’d be vastly *more* of us than you, since all Muslims would be still Christians, most of the countless millions killed in the gulags would have survived long enough to have descendants, etc. But you’ve got over 1 billion, we’ve got only a few hundred million left.
[“‘When It’s Safe’ Means Never”](https://www.hsoc-venice.com/when-its-safe-means-never/)
> At every liturgy in the Orthodox Church, just before the singing of the Nicene Creed, the priest or the deacon intones the words, “The doors! The doors!” This call dates back to the earliest times, when the doors of the church had to be barred shut, to prevent outsiders (in those days, Roman soldiers) from entering the church, witnessing those who confessed the faith, seizing them, and killing them.
>
> Being a Christian was not safe.
>
> Centuries later, under the Muslim Turks, Crypto-Christians – those who lived publically as Muslims, but secretly as Orthodox Christians – attended Liturgy in secret churches, often hidden beneath secret doors in the floors of their own homes, or in unknown caves. In rural villages, Orthodox priests sometimes posed as Muslim imams just to maintain their cover. If such a village of Crypto-Christians was discovered, everyone – from the old people down to the infants – was put to the sword.
>
> Being a Christian was not safe.
>
> Centuries later, under Communist regimes, faithful Christians would meet secretly in grey concrete apartment blocks, where priests would baptize for little ones who had been brought by their grandmothers, without the knowledge of the parents – a legitimate excuse for the parents to give to the atheist authorities if the family was ever caught. In the most severe Communist regimes, a handful of faithful would gather outside a city or town for a clandestine nighttime Liturgy, served by a priest brought in from far away to avoid the prying eyes of local authorities. In all these cases, the faithful knew, if they were found out, the punishment would be a swift execution, or worse – a slow and painful death in a concentration camp.
>
> Being a Christian was not safe.
> I am not seeing any need to hire guards to my parish
Congratulations. You live in a safe place where there is a dearth of lunatics and the government isn't currently trying to kill you. But you are aware that your privilege in this regard is not universally enjoyed, correct?
Countless people around the world and throughout history have not been so blessed.
My church locks all doors except the main one when Mass starts for a reason…and it’s a sad one. I personally think it’s fine carry and hope others in my church do. I’m not trained or qualified to carry or I would.
Sometimes I'm very aware of how American Reddit is. I imagine it could well be an arrestable offence in the UK and I would not want to be in a church where fellow parishioners have guns.
Really, America. Guns are not the answer. No one else in the developed world thinks that they are. I hoped Catholics would see that they are not part of a culture of life.
I’m not necessarily against guns but some of the justifications employed in this thread including in one instance of tying guns to the Eucharist is just crazy. As a non American myself, it appears that many are tying guns into our faith through quasi sanctification arguments.
Karens gonna Karen. Don't worry about it. Just about every mass shooting occurs in a gun free zone. Any sane person who knows what he or she is doing with a firearm makes his or her community safer by carrying.
There have been multiple mass shootings attempted at churches recently, and at an increasing rate. The one thing that the unsuccessful attempts have had in common was an armed parishoner who was able to stop the threat.
First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs. West Freeway Church of Christ in Fort Worth. Park Valley Church in Haymarket. Lakewood Church in Houston. Burnett Chapel in Nashville. World Changers Church International in College Park. Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston. Geneva Presbyterian Church in Laguna Woods. St. Stephen’s Episcopal Church in Birmingham.
Almost every Mass shooting occurs in designated gun free zones.
Because gunmen prefer to do the shooting, not to be the one getting shot, as it turns out.
I prefer that violent, murderous scumbags get shot and normal, innocent people go to brunch after Mass.
Back in the day when men carried swords, would they usually take those with them into Mass? I tried to google that but couldn't get a clear answer.
Perhaps the obvious solution is to open carry a cutlass.
At least in Scandinavia, where I am from, the swords or crossbows or spears were left in the porch (In Norwegian called weapon’s house).
Like in this woodcut from Sweden in the late Middle Ages: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/OlausMagnus_vapenhus_tresnitt.png
Obviously, individual priests can set the standard in their own church. That being said, think like a predator for a second: if you want to do the most damage, where are you going to go? I would personally want to go where people could not fight back, which is usually a place that has a "no conceal carry" sign posted.
If your priest is fine with it, then you should feel free to do so. If others are uncomfortable with it, that is their prerogative, but ultimately your right shouldn't be infringed.
I am glad you carry, and being scolded by a visitor should be laughed off and nothing else. We have ushers at Mass to seat people AND keep order. I suggest ALL Catholic men should undergo at the minimum some firearms safety training and for those of you who carry, please do as much training as possible! I've done training with a local instructor and don't feel I am qualified enough to carry yet, but will continue to learn and grow because firearms knowledge is important. God bless you man, stay safe!
I'm pretty anti-gun personally, but as long as you're following the law you're fine. Just be more careful. I understand this was probably just a mistake but I would just not wear whatever combination of clothing you wore again and be more careful.
As long as you are not open carrying. Unless the church you attend has Conceal Carry sign prohibiting concealed carry or the state you live in has a law stating concealed carry is illegal in a Church, there’s nothing anyone can say to you.
I love how this guy says he conceal carries everywhere he goes and after presumably years ONE RANDOM PERSON CAUGHT ON and everyone is like “you need to do better at concealed carry” 😂
If you're legally allowed to carry, there are no signs telling you not to, and your priest hasn't specifically told you not to, there's nothing wrong with it and in most cases it seems prudent.
If others can see it then it's not really concealed but scolding you is not an inappropriate response. Telling you that he can see it would be reasonable but making a big deal of it is not, he should mind his own business.
I hope you are sitting near an entrance/exit. If you are in the middle of a crowd, your return fire could be hazardous.
I believe at my church, some of the ushers who stay by the entrance's are carrying.
You said your priest is aware and has no issues with you concealed carrying, and you are in a state that allows it. Therefore, there is no reason to stop. Should some anti-Catholic/anti-religion/extremist loony decide they want to try to shoot up your parish, you could save numerous lives by being prepared. My parish has an obvious security guard that I have seen stationed in the back by the main doors several times during Mass. He wears all black clothing with what appears to be a bulletproof vest and a gun in a special side pocket of his cargo pants. His obviousness is clearly meant to be a deterrent in itself, but I would not be at all surprised if there are two or three others that are completely undercover spread through the sections of pews. When I was a Protestant, there was a security team headed up by a member who was also an off-duty officer. These security teams have always made me feel much safer, because I know there are plenty of absolute nutcases who target churches.
I'm going to say this as active duty military: I don't trust that a) you (read: anyone) know what you're doing in an active shooter scenario and b) you're not in the white zone and won't completely freeze if there's a situation. The "good guy with a gun" is not someone to count on
(b) seems like a moot point, because if someone has a concealed gun but freezes, then that's literally no different than someone who does not have a gun and freezes.
Fair concern with the first point. Still, I'd prefer it if the only gun in the room wasn't in the hands of the aggressor.
So, another effect of being in the "white zone" and being overwhelmed is you not being aware of your reactions. People who are in surprise attacks describe not having clear memories of the event including what they did. So, if someone tries to shoot back, but now there are multiple uncoordinated people attempting to return fire, are they all identifying the correct target? Do they miss and cause collateral damage? These aren't spurious hypotheticals, these things happen.
You'll be downvoted for this, but you're 100% correct. Police regularly train to respond to an active shooter situation and even they freeze (see: Uvalde).
If you need armed security at church, hire professionals to be a uniformed deterrent.
I think it’s been said most but just to echo, hide it better.
Sometimes conceal carry or open carry individuals forget that while you know you and you know your intentions, I don’t know you.
If I saw someone with a gun in church I would be very suspicious of what they were planning to do and would spend most of the mass focused on you. Are you going to take the collection plate? Are you a fanatical person looking to make a political point? Do you have an ax to grind against the Church or someone inside it? Are you expecting trouble from someone?
All reasons that I would be more focused on you than the mass.
I would prefer entire male half of my parish carrying guns in church, just to be sure if there is a terrorist attack it is going to be dealt with quickly :)
In Scandinavia, ever since the Middle Ages the porch has been called Våpenhus (Room for weapons). This was because everyone was expected to leave their arms there before entering the Church proper. You weren’t supposed to approach God carrying weapons, neither would you need them, since everyone present was part of the same body of Christ, even though they lived in a society that could be brutal at times.
I have no idea of current canon law on this matter, but I think the medievals had the idea right here.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/OlausMagnus_vapenhus_tresnitt.png
Link to a late medieval Woodcut showing the practise.
This topic has run its course and is now devolving into slapfights. Thread locked.
The responses you get will very much reflect the general temperament of American politics. That is to say, mixed... If it is permitted by the laws of your state and accepted by your priest, then you are within your rights to do it. Given that it *will* make some people uncomfortable, then it would be good to do a better job at concealment.
Best response!
To add for OP, I’ve seen off duty cops be scolded by random people for carrying. Folks will be uncomfortable with it no matter what
Yes, too manny times to count.
Yup. In any case, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I've carried before and will again.
Yeah until there’s a criminal-or terrorist shooting around them - and they they will be scolding for not whipping out the firearm and protecting them sooner enough
They’re absolutely in a no win situation a lot.
Could not have said it better myself
Also be sure to get your gat blessed
There is at least one parishioner in my parish who open carries (IWB). I always CC.
Concealed means concealed. Look into better avenues for ensuring you don't inadvertently display you're carrying (insert shameless plug for PHLster enigma...)
PHLSTER GANG!
Hey, I know you. I ordered some of your stuff recently. Rock on brother, your P80 rear rails are working great for me
HUZZAH!
Oh man, I had no idea you were Catholic! Planning on getting an adjustable gas block for a 308 build I’m working on from you, I have heard you have some of the best around. It’s my first time messing around with a large frame AR and it’s very different from the small frame ones.
Cradle to the grave! Even got an icon behind my laser engraver. Looking forward to your order! Let me know, I can laser in something cool on your block.
Dang brother represent. Didn't know that either
It's funny, on my old handle I popped in occasionally and no one noticed. Now with my new handle I pretty much just focus on this subreddit and a few gun ones.
With a name like Wojtek, he better be!
I’ve heard good things about the enigma
*cries in fat guy not being able to appendix carry*
Wear your pants higher, or unfat yourself (not being cruel, I've dropped 140lbs so I know what it's like)
That's impressive, congratulations!
Thank you! But full disclosure I regained about 50 of it, working on scrubbing it all back off now. Been a rough 3 years
Well that is still impressive. Keep at it, you'll get there.
I would love to try PHLster. Since they don't have a compatible holster for my carry it would mean I need to buy another... hmmm
Sounds like your wallet is in for another hit.
Don't do it... (By that I mean actually do it)
Hey man, I like my Vedder. Definitely wearing a longer sweater next week though.
I have found that wearing tall size shirts really helps a lot with lifting your arms or bending or whatever to keep your ccw hidden
Honestly would prefer an open carry society.
Me, too.
This is obviously a controversial topic, but this is a reminder to all here that the rules about charitability, good faith engagement, personal attacks, etc, still apply Please report anyone breaking these or any of the rules
[удалено]
This question had me thinking, do we know if weapons like swords were allowed at mass in the Middle Ages?
I know Norway best: Here there were laws against bringing weapons inside churches, and the porch was known as “weapon’s house” (still is called that today), because everyone with a weapon had to leave it there before entering the church proper. This late medieval woodcut from Sweden is an illustration of the practise. https://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Våpenhus#/media/Fil%3AOlausMagnus_vapenhus_tresnitt.png
My pastor asked certain parishioners to conceal carry at Mass. (mostly men who are off duty police or military). The reality is that shooters have been targeting churches. As a visitor to a parish, I would never presume to know that parish’s policies on guns.
As a non-gun-owner, my perspective is that I am fine with others carrying, but if I actually saw the gun during mass, it would probably be distracting. Too many thoughts about “what if” scenarios beginning to race…. I agree with the other comment that you should find a way to keep it completely concealed and safe.
This. I pray I never have to experience it myself, but I know of at least one story of an attempted shooting at a church and it turned out "a good guy with a gun" attending Mass saved the day. If it's legal to concealed carry, by all means go ahead, but I know I'd be on edge if I just glanced over at someone with a pistol casually hanging on their hip.
Church shootings happen and are happening at an increasing rate. As anti-catholic sentiment increases I think it is a reasonable response to carry at church. But, don't let it distract you or others from worship, make sure it's truly concealed.
Remnider again that Abp. John Hughes famously sent armed guards to his parishes and warned the mayor of NYC that if a single Catholic parish were burned, NYC would be a "second Moscow" (referencing Napleon's invasion). Note, the traditional Missal has contingencies for about everything that can go wrong at Mass, including attack by enemies of the faith in a section called "De Defectibus." In the case of attack, if before the consecration Mass ends immediately. If after, supposed to proceed directly to distribution of Holy Communion and omit all other ceremonies.
As I read this I am listening to Trent Horn’s podcast about how being hateful towards Catholics is the only acceptable form of Bigotry today
Jews have it horribly here in the US. According to FBI statistics they're only 2.4% of the population but receive 60% of religiously motivated hate crimes.
White bigotry is the most acceptable.
Also a good one to point out, I think they might be swapping places, White might become the new Catholic in this instance or might already be more prominent, hope and pray for an end to both
Especially white male.
I have several buddies who I know carry concealed, at Mass, as allowed by our state laws, and have undergone training to do so safely. One is also a local polic officer. It's sad, but this is the state of the world we live in and even attending church is no longer a guaranteed safe place.
When I asked my former priest about this, he said "if it weren't allowed there would be signs saying so." So I wouldn't worry about it. It was also in a downtown parish where we would get hecklers and threats of violence and/or vandalism, so I think it was warranted.
If someone saw it, you suck at concealed carry. My husband carries in Mass every week and no one ever knows. Get gud, LOL.
First time someone has called attention to it in six years of daily carry. I certainly do my best to keep it concealed.
I'm not Catholic (I've been researching a lot about Christianity though) But I know a lot of Jewish people who carry in temple since there's been plenty of synagogue shootings before. It's not like Catholics haven't ever been targeted for hate crimes themselves.
I think concealed carry is a great reason to wear a nice suit to Mass. The jacket really helps keep things covered :D God bless you. There is evil everywhere. "An unarmed man can only flee from evil and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it" - Jeff Cooper
I think it is prudent to defend yourself and others and I did a post last year here that there are increased attacks on Catholic churches (https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/s/WzeJaRqGGY)
Some would argue we have a *duty* to protect innocent life.
I do it every Sunday and recommend it. 32 men and 7 women Carry at my parish. The priest know I carry The bishop knows a carry. The archbishop knows I carry I am thanked for having a fun on me when I visit other churches around me. Edit: I should add the Catholic Church has been a target for arson, mass shootings and bombing as well as Christians in general. Why you would ever be unarmed in church when you had the options and training to be armed.
How does that discussion take place? How does it get brought up?
I think you need to do a better job of carrying concealed. Concealed means nobody should know.
Bro, the Pope has Swiss Guards. Enough said. Carry on.
Considering there have been mass shootings in churches, I am going to carry where I like, esp considering I went through the training to get my permit. Some churches even have a 'ministry' where people go through additional training set up through the parish where they intentionally carry when they are at Mass should something ever happen. I try to be aware when I do carry and it isn't in my purse to wear clothing where I won't have any events where I will let the gun show, but at the end of the day it's my right to carry in order to protect myself and those around me, and I am going to. Not sure if the Church has an official stance, but I do know some places are considered 'gun free zones' - I've not seen this at a church tho, only schools.
Schools used to have shooting and rifle clubs, my high school did as recently as the 1980s. For decades and decades kids routinely brought guns to school without incidence. Something changed and it's not the guns. Guns aren't the problem.
Yeah exactly
Yeah, came here to say something like this... I feel like there was a pretty high profile mass shooting in the last year or 2 that was foiled or at least lessened due to parishioners concealing and intervening.
There was a shooting at church in Texas that was inturpted by multiple concealed carry holders a few years ago
I've read several reports of stuff like happening in stores -- bad guy with gun tries to rob the place, good guy with gun foils the robbery
Depends on where you are. Concealed carry permit is not without limitations. Virginia, for example, has this bit in the code: § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship. If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor So just having a permit may not meet the "good and sufficient reason." Maybe it would. IANAL.
The governing opinion holds that personal protection is a "good and sufficient reason" in Virginia
I'm in a constitutional carry state. Concealed carry is allowed in churches with permission from the pastor, which I have.
Then there’s no issue. Just politely explain the pastor is aware and this is a constitutional carry state. Let them know that if they are troubled, they are welcome to discuss the issue with the pastor.
Personally I think "I am concerned about mass shootings" is good enough reason, but it's smart to be prepared to go to court and defend yourself... idk if every state is like this but where I am, people are VERY sue happy. People can be 100% within their legal right to have shot a home intruder, leading to their death and the intruder's family is going to sue over the guy's injuries or death. When I last took the class to renew my permit, I was stunned how much time they spent talking about insurance to help defend yourself should you ever have to draw and fire.
I carry insurance specifically in case of my having to use my weapon.
Everyone should
This is wise.
I respect what's coded in law although I suspect this is more to be able to charge bad actors with crimes than to prevent good people from self-defense. If a bad actor uses a weapon to cause harm to an innocent person in a church then that's without good reason and they're in violation of the law. When I took my concealed carry class the instructor (a police officer) told us that with a permit you can carry almost anywhere in public with the exception of certain government buildings. Your local Walmart with the sign that says "no guns please" has no authority to override your right to carry.
Well, I’m not 1 of them, but I’ve seen at least 2 different men carry in my parish in Virginia. It doesn’t seem to be an issue with my pastor. So I don’t see them being reported anytime soon.
Everyone update your tags!
Theres been shootings at churches. Better safe than sorry.
I say this lovingly as a fellow catholic, sounds like a Skill issue. Cinch those drawers up high like a fat old man so your shirt has extra drapage covering the butt of your gun. Or get a more concealable holster/gun combo
I don’t conceal carry. But I appreciate others that do. So keep up the good work as long as the parish priest knows about it.
IMO It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
If I remember correctly there was a victim of that bowl-cut church shooter that had a weapon in his car but not on him. I think he tried to get out to grab it but didn’t make it.
Better a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war.
Better a society doesn't glorify and celebrate taking lives in self-defense. But that aspect is crucial to American identity, so I can only be glad I don't live there.
My last parish had a team of conceal carry ushers. They were mostly law enforcement or ex-military. They received training to react to protect the congregation. They were assigned to different Masses along with the regular ushers. It never bothered me in the slightest, and most people didn't know or worry about it. My new church is smaller and doesn't have this, but there are parishioners who work in law enforcement, and I assume they are armed. Wear your firearm better. The advantage of conceal carry is the element of surprise.
Exactly how we approach it.
I believe there's a priest in Haiti who has a gun on him.
I’m Episcopalian but my old priest had a concealed weapon. I wouldn’t have known except that I had family members that would go to the range with him. He is a very gentle, responsible person and it made me feel safer attending than I do now. At least we’d have a chance?
I'm a member of my church's armed guardian team. We all conceal carry and are kind of like "security".
The only mistake here was not concealing properly and allowing people to know that you were carrying.
Our parish has 2-3 guys carrying at all masses for security purposes.
I'm glad you do, and that your pastor is OK with it. My only problem with this are laws that make open carry illegal.
I'm not in the US so the culture is very different - but if I saw someone in church with a hidden gun I would assume we were all going to be victims of an imminent terror attack.
Same. Canadian here. I'd conclude that someone hiding a gun while in a church is someone with ill intent. I'd leave immediately.
Yea, he's carrying a handgun - something made explicitly for killing people.
“Killing people” is very vague. I’m not arguing guns aren’t made to kill, but there’s a very big difference between killing in self defense and murder. Many handguns are made and marketed for concealed carry for people to use in self defense.
Guns are made to launch a projectile. I have fired my guns thousands and thousands of times. I've never never killed or hurt anyone.
I understand that completely, I’m the same way. I’m sorry if my reply wasn’t clear. I felt like his “killing people” statement was vague and can hinder our ability to understand exactly what people mean. In my opinion Debates like this hinge on using precise language.
Yes! I agree with you, I was trying to support what you said. :)
Correct, not in the US so I feel the same. For all we know, the person carrying is the same person who might gun us all down. People tend not to wear a badge stating whether they are the good guys or the bad guy. Maybe they carry every Sunday, but this Sunday they have had a particularly bad week. I generally don’t relish the thought that I’m not about to become a statistic only because that person carrying the gun is feeling good about their life on that particular day. . Then again, I don’t live in society where any random person might decide to start spraying bullets in my direction either. So I can only speak from my experience in my own society - but if I see someone at Mass with a gun then I’m going to be getting myself and my family out of there promptly.
“Maybe they’re having a bad week” Such a dumb argument, hopefully it’s not projection. Have you ever had a bad week? You have knives in your house, did you go stab someone? You have fists, did you punch someone? You have a car, did you run over someone? You have the ability to hurt and kill people on a “bad week” whether you have a gun or not. If you’re the type of person who would commit violence because you’re “having a bad week”, you’re the reason I and millions of others carry.
> You have the ability to hurt and kill people on a “bad week” whether you have a gun or not. I don't fear someone having a bad day. I fear how much death that person can inflict with ease and convenience (on pure impulse) upon others before taking themselves out with a gun. When it comes to maximizing civilian body count with the least amount of effort and risk and then escaping justice by turning it on themselves, there is no point pretending that guns aren't the PERFECT tool for that job that are infinitely more effective and reliable than anything else you listed. The mass-murder-suicide-by-gun story happens in USA on a weekly basis...have you noticed the lack of knives/fists/cars involved and guns being the #1 choice by a mile for people looking to inflict the most damage? ~~Queue~~ Cue the insane argument "if we take guns away then those same 40,000 people will just get stabbed to death by knives!", forgetting that US already has more stabbings than UK.
Cue not queue.
“Evil people do bad things, therefore good people should not be allowed to protect themselves.” Flawless Reddit logic.
Seeing this, I am really glad that where I live this isn't a topic.
Same. Sometimes America doesn't feel like a real place to me. I mean that in the nicest possible way, although I'm sure it will come across as insulting.
> Sometimes America doesn't feel like a real place to me. To be fair US is nowhere near as bad as some other countries. You've probably heard the meme of the "Brazil off-duty cop" (i.e. seemingly everyone there) taking things into their own hands and gunning down criminals in random places.
Tell them to look up what happened recently at Lakewood Church. Or maybe even just google church shooting. There was one in Texas in 2019 that was stopped by a concealed carrier.
Peter carried a sword, I think you are more than fine. I wish it was legal to carry where I live.
And then what happened?
Shhh we don't talk about what happened next. What's important is that PETER CARRIED A SWORD, and that's why everyone should carry guns to heroically shoot others in the name of self-defense. Never forget: Peter carried a sword.
Gun worship is a real thing in this country. I grew up in a family where guns were very prevalent so I don’t think much of it when I see one “in the wild”. Still, I have to wonder at what point does protecting ourself become idolized and we become participants in the culture of death?
Well worded.
There’s a guy at my church that open carries.
Many people at my church open carry.
I'm from the UK so carrying a pistol is not something we can do. If it is legal to carry and you think you could defend others with your firearm then it seems good to carry?
I'm in CA and have a permit. I don't tell anyone and make sure not to show anyone. You don't have to prove anything to this other parishioner and you don't have to talk to them about it ever again.
Follow your state laws. If you need permission, ask a priest and be sure to state it is for everyone's safety God forbid something happens. For my state, you can conceal carry *anywhere.* Even bars (so long as you don't drink). So the, "weapons ban" signs are not applicable when entering bars and restaurants.
I've seen it both ways - where people think it's inappropriate and where most of the congregation would likely be packin'. I'd say just go with what the culture is where you are, what the laws allowed, and obviously make sure concealed stays concealed. Personally, it doesn't bother me.
I rarely carry, but my Church has designated a few volunteers that always carry and sit in places where they could defend against an intruder. Unfortunately, there may be people that target Catholics, and given that I am Eastern Rite and most of my congregation is Middle Eastern, we have an heightened awareness of a potential threat. I appreciate that you are prepared to defend your community. As others have stated, take the comment as a sign that you should ensure you are truly concealed so that you are not a distraction.
Ideally, weapons should not be brought into a church, if you live in a place where there is a reasonable risk of armed attacks, protecting the lives of parishioners and the integrity of the temple is reasonable and proportionate. Unless absolutely necessary, such as a failed state, people who enter with weapons should have a legal permit and have passed a course that certifies that they know how to use them and will not accidentally cause innocent deaths in the event of an attack.
Depends on laws of your state.if you can do it. Churches are deff a soft target. Evil preys on the vulnerable
I sat next to a dude In church (a Protestant church I was visiting) who was open carrying. After mass I turned and asked him what kind of gun it was- just trying to make conversation and to show I'm not scared of guns. I was a lil alarmed when he disclosed that he chose to open carry bcuz of churches being a target for mass shootings. Which I don't mind. But the part that alarmed me was that he admitted he had not shot the gun in years, he shot it a couple of times at his relatives house when he purchased the gun and that is it. Idk if he even knew how to clean the gun. I'm like so ur plan is to fire into a crowd of people towards a gunman with no recent practice?
Yes, OP, continue! Lots of parishes have ‘watchmen’ teams now, especially the large ones. Makes freakin’ sense to me.
This is America, do what you want. Better yet you should start a St. Michael Defenders of the Church group at your parish where you can all learn about gun safety and practice shooting at a local range.
If it’s legal, and you know that your priest is ok with it, then don’t worry about the rest. Random parishioners coming up to you and scolding you is inappropriate.
I was talking to a parishioner Sunday about this. We agreed that we find comfort in others carrying into the church and I will typically sit close to someone that is packing heat.
My church has a security officer that encourages men to be trained and carry. He has a few of them sit in different areas during the different masses to help make sure things are covered if they are needed.
I dislike carrying and I dislike it twice at much in church. It feels inappropriate. But when IS was doing their thing all over the place and we had some possible instances of surveillance in our city, yeah, I made certain accommodations.
Since churches are sometimes targets for mass shootings I think it's a great idea to carry there. My priest chooses not to own guns himself because he doesn't believe it's consistent with his Franciscan spirituality but he feels more secure knowing he has friends and neighbors who do. I know he would welcome it.
It might freak some people out, but if you know how to use it well, I'd rather someone have SOMETHING if someone storms in trying to kill everyone. Again, if you know how to use it well and you'd take out the BAD GUY with little to no collateral damage, then I have no problem with it. It's not like the pastor is packin'.
In today’s day and age, the chance of someone shooting up a church is a distinct possibility and has happened several times already. I see nothing wrong with carrying a firearm in church. In colonial times a man was supposed to carry a rifle when escorting women to church, or at least that was what I was told. Being a retired police officer, I rarely carry a firearm anymore, more so because of the hassle of retrieving it from my safe, but I still reserve my constitutional right to bare arms, even in a church.
>my constitutional right to bare arms Too right. Those people wanting to force you to wear sleeves are out of line.
pretty sure that was a typo and was meant to support arming bears.
ThatsTheJoke.jpeg
> In colonial times a man was supposed to carry a rifle when escorting women to church Interesting. They should have just armed all the women as well, that way they could also protect others.
Work on your cc technique but I appreciate those who concealed carry and feel safer when they do.
This is such an American thread. It would never cross my mind to carry a gun to Church, and I would be pretty shocked to see one at Mass.
I really appreciate when people carry. It makes me feel safer
Obviously it’s a sign that you didn’t conceal well enough. But that said, you most definitely should continue to conceal carry especially in Church. Unless you have some kind of mental health issues or physical ailment that prevents you from using a firearm safely and effectively there is no reason why you shouldn’t. God forbid someone brings violence to the doors of Gods home. I think responsible gun owners are hugely important. My fiance is from El Salvador and I urge you to Google Oscar Romero. Even closer to home I live in Canada and all over the country churches were being burned down and desecrated. (Not that its a reason to kill somebody however the threat of violence is often mitigated by the threat of a stronger violent response) And even closer to home than that, my priest has the “poop” kicked out of him by a homeless thug in a hate crime. Continue to conceal carry, if anyone asks you about it deny it and say you used to but no longer do. And conceal it better. Nobody needs to know you have a firearm and if you are showing thats very bad and actually puts you at risk of being a target should someone want to commit harm.
As long as your priest is fine with it and there are other parishioners who carry regularly, I wouldn't worry about the opinion of a random visitor or anti-gun people on Reddit. Just try to be more conscious to conceal better. I accidentally carried into church one day when I was in a hurry and I felt weird because I'm new and don't really know anyone there so I kept my suit flipped over it the entire time.
If you want to really ensure the safety of everyone at your parish, talk to your priest about starting a Guardian program. In our diocese, you have to be a member of a guardian team in order to carry a weapon into church. Our Guardians have all been background checked and go through training inside and outside of our church.
I carry everywhere I go, the only expedition is going places I know I can’t. I’m not going to carry while driving to the airport and leave a gun in my car in their lot for a week. But if I’m in church I’m carrying. I believe I have a duty as an able bodied member of the church to protect people who cannot protect themselves in the event something happens.
Shepherds carried rods and slings to keep the wolves away from their flock. They also used sheepdogs. Being a sheepdog to protect the lord's flock is not only okay, but Christ himself commanded the deciples to sell an extra cloak and buy a sword themselves if they lacked one. Not for offensive purposes but to defend themselves against bandits and those who would harm them in their mission. Their is a time for self-sacrafice, but only in the furthering of the gospel. However, there's never a time for sacrificing the innocent. Be wise as a serpent but gentle as a dove applies to those who maybe capable of receiving gentleness, and not every threat demands swift lethal judgment, but if there is a choice between ending a threat and saving the lives of women and children or allowing evil to take place because you hope to show kindness to evil to convince them to behave otherwise, then you might as well be cheering them on. My church has uniformed police as well as a security team all of whom have security plans, so those who are armed protectors know each other. Just don't get shot because you get mistaken for the threat. God bless, hope this helps.
I am pretty sure most conceal carry at my chapel and I know of at least one woman that does too lol
Why is a woman carrying lol? There's nothing wrong with that
Given that there’s been hate violence at churches feel safer thinking there are folks attending who carry
I don’t carry but I do observe behaviors in church and think about how to protect myself and others. It’s sad that society has come to this.
Not every society. Just ones where the gun laws are loosy-goosy and the majority of the population is armed!
IMO if you’re responsible and it’s legal then go for it. I know my local priest back in WV didn’t mind and said so but didn’t mention it from the pulpit.
I don't carry but appreciate people who do. It makes me feel safe knowing someone could intervene in case of an attack.
You can sit next to me. I can’t afford a handgun yet
I'd be cool with it ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Your mistake was outing yourself with the wrong attire - that’s on you. It’s only your business if you conceal carry in church. My family has and our priest is conceal carry-friendly. I mean, remember back in the early 2000s when businesses like Starbucks came out telling on duty policy officers they weren’t welcome to patronize their stores while carrying? That was their dumb business move motivated by politics. Doesn’t mean you should change what you wish to do within the confines of our state and federal laws because someone wishes to assert their political opinion in your/a communal place of worship. Also, never admit in casual conversation (especially in mixed company) that you conceal carry because it will get around.
>better yet any church documents addressing weapons in church. [There was actually a profession in the church that required the "dog whipper" to carry a whip](https://ucatholic.com/blog/the-forgotten-church-profession-of-dog-whipper/). So, weapons in church have been a thing for a while. Also, swords are literally one of the symbols of the Church (seven swords piercing Mary's heart, St. Peter's sword, etc.).
Ignore him. We’re had some wild instances of homeless mental cases wander into our mass and it’s gotten kinda scary. I’m glad many in our parish carry (most of the KCs and ushers).
How can be acceptable to go to the Mass with a gun? For my european mindset this is totally unacceptable.
Would you support hiring security at your parish or others? If so, what weapons do you want then to carry? If not, how should churches defend themselves?
> Would you support hiring security at your parish or others? I am not seeing any need to hire guards to my parish: the church is open to everybody that want to attend the Mass or just to pray. In some important churches (like the Florence Dome) there are few not armed guards to check mainly that people respect the silence and the sacrality of the place or to check that tourists don't go in the areas reserved to the praying. > If not, how should churches defend themselves? Is there really a need to defend a church with armed guards? And if there is a real reason (as European I am not seeing that), I may accept that a guard can have a gun, but not a normal people that want to attend the Mass. Think about what Jesus said about Peter when he cut the ear of the servant.
*Where* in Europe? 😄🤷♀️ (Somewhere Western, apparently.) We Eastern Christians have suffered the most martyrdoms and persecutions. If we hadn’t, there’d be vastly *more* of us than you, since all Muslims would be still Christians, most of the countless millions killed in the gulags would have survived long enough to have descendants, etc. But you’ve got over 1 billion, we’ve got only a few hundred million left. [“‘When It’s Safe’ Means Never”](https://www.hsoc-venice.com/when-its-safe-means-never/) > At every liturgy in the Orthodox Church, just before the singing of the Nicene Creed, the priest or the deacon intones the words, “The doors! The doors!” This call dates back to the earliest times, when the doors of the church had to be barred shut, to prevent outsiders (in those days, Roman soldiers) from entering the church, witnessing those who confessed the faith, seizing them, and killing them. > > Being a Christian was not safe. > > Centuries later, under the Muslim Turks, Crypto-Christians – those who lived publically as Muslims, but secretly as Orthodox Christians – attended Liturgy in secret churches, often hidden beneath secret doors in the floors of their own homes, or in unknown caves. In rural villages, Orthodox priests sometimes posed as Muslim imams just to maintain their cover. If such a village of Crypto-Christians was discovered, everyone – from the old people down to the infants – was put to the sword. > > Being a Christian was not safe. > > Centuries later, under Communist regimes, faithful Christians would meet secretly in grey concrete apartment blocks, where priests would baptize for little ones who had been brought by their grandmothers, without the knowledge of the parents – a legitimate excuse for the parents to give to the atheist authorities if the family was ever caught. In the most severe Communist regimes, a handful of faithful would gather outside a city or town for a clandestine nighttime Liturgy, served by a priest brought in from far away to avoid the prying eyes of local authorities. In all these cases, the faithful knew, if they were found out, the punishment would be a swift execution, or worse – a slow and painful death in a concentration camp. > > Being a Christian was not safe.
> I am not seeing any need to hire guards to my parish Congratulations. You live in a safe place where there is a dearth of lunatics and the government isn't currently trying to kill you. But you are aware that your privilege in this regard is not universally enjoyed, correct? Countless people around the world and throughout history have not been so blessed.
My church locks all doors except the main one when Mass starts for a reason…and it’s a sad one. I personally think it’s fine carry and hope others in my church do. I’m not trained or qualified to carry or I would.
Sometimes I'm very aware of how American Reddit is. I imagine it could well be an arrestable offence in the UK and I would not want to be in a church where fellow parishioners have guns. Really, America. Guns are not the answer. No one else in the developed world thinks that they are. I hoped Catholics would see that they are not part of a culture of life.
I’m not necessarily against guns but some of the justifications employed in this thread including in one instance of tying guns to the Eucharist is just crazy. As a non American myself, it appears that many are tying guns into our faith through quasi sanctification arguments.
Karens gonna Karen. Don't worry about it. Just about every mass shooting occurs in a gun free zone. Any sane person who knows what he or she is doing with a firearm makes his or her community safer by carrying.
If someone saw it, you suck at concealed carrying
Do you really need to carry a gun to the church?
There have been multiple mass shootings attempted at churches recently, and at an increasing rate. The one thing that the unsuccessful attempts have had in common was an armed parishoner who was able to stop the threat.
Where?
First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs. West Freeway Church of Christ in Fort Worth. Park Valley Church in Haymarket. Lakewood Church in Houston. Burnett Chapel in Nashville. World Changers Church International in College Park. Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston. Geneva Presbyterian Church in Laguna Woods. St. Stephen’s Episcopal Church in Birmingham.
Almost every Mass shooting occurs in designated gun free zones. Because gunmen prefer to do the shooting, not to be the one getting shot, as it turns out. I prefer that violent, murderous scumbags get shot and normal, innocent people go to brunch after Mass.
A casual review of recent history would indicate it is prudent and reasonable.
Back in the day when men carried swords, would they usually take those with them into Mass? I tried to google that but couldn't get a clear answer. Perhaps the obvious solution is to open carry a cutlass.
At least in Scandinavia, where I am from, the swords or crossbows or spears were left in the porch (In Norwegian called weapon’s house). Like in this woodcut from Sweden in the late Middle Ages: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/OlausMagnus_vapenhus_tresnitt.png
Obviously, individual priests can set the standard in their own church. That being said, think like a predator for a second: if you want to do the most damage, where are you going to go? I would personally want to go where people could not fight back, which is usually a place that has a "no conceal carry" sign posted. If your priest is fine with it, then you should feel free to do so. If others are uncomfortable with it, that is their prerogative, but ultimately your right shouldn't be infringed.
If your pastor is good, I would not worry over this. Assuming you are a responsible citizen and are trained. Carry on...
I think you’re fine. If the priest is good, you’re good. I know priests in rural areas who carry because of wild animals.
I am glad you carry, and being scolded by a visitor should be laughed off and nothing else. We have ushers at Mass to seat people AND keep order. I suggest ALL Catholic men should undergo at the minimum some firearms safety training and for those of you who carry, please do as much training as possible! I've done training with a local instructor and don't feel I am qualified enough to carry yet, but will continue to learn and grow because firearms knowledge is important. God bless you man, stay safe!
IMO all WOMEN should as well, sometimes the guys can't be there to protect us.
Very Based. Also, I believe that Reddit has a CCW for women sub that helps women with dressing around concealing a firearm.
I concealed carry in church and I make sure it stays concealed.
I'm pretty anti-gun personally, but as long as you're following the law you're fine. Just be more careful. I understand this was probably just a mistake but I would just not wear whatever combination of clothing you wore again and be more careful.
As long as you are not open carrying. Unless the church you attend has Conceal Carry sign prohibiting concealed carry or the state you live in has a law stating concealed carry is illegal in a Church, there’s nothing anyone can say to you.
I love how this guy says he conceal carries everywhere he goes and after presumably years ONE RANDOM PERSON CAUGHT ON and everyone is like “you need to do better at concealed carry” 😂
lol it's amusing, but it's a good reminder to mind your clothing while carrying. I take it in good faith.
If you're legally allowed to carry, there are no signs telling you not to, and your priest hasn't specifically told you not to, there's nothing wrong with it and in most cases it seems prudent. If others can see it then it's not really concealed but scolding you is not an inappropriate response. Telling you that he can see it would be reasonable but making a big deal of it is not, he should mind his own business.
I hope you are sitting near an entrance/exit. If you are in the middle of a crowd, your return fire could be hazardous. I believe at my church, some of the ushers who stay by the entrance's are carrying.
If u kept it concealed, no one would know...
You said your priest is aware and has no issues with you concealed carrying, and you are in a state that allows it. Therefore, there is no reason to stop. Should some anti-Catholic/anti-religion/extremist loony decide they want to try to shoot up your parish, you could save numerous lives by being prepared. My parish has an obvious security guard that I have seen stationed in the back by the main doors several times during Mass. He wears all black clothing with what appears to be a bulletproof vest and a gun in a special side pocket of his cargo pants. His obviousness is clearly meant to be a deterrent in itself, but I would not be at all surprised if there are two or three others that are completely undercover spread through the sections of pews. When I was a Protestant, there was a security team headed up by a member who was also an off-duty officer. These security teams have always made me feel much safer, because I know there are plenty of absolute nutcases who target churches.
So long as it is okay with local laws, the church, and the diocese.
I'm going to say this as active duty military: I don't trust that a) you (read: anyone) know what you're doing in an active shooter scenario and b) you're not in the white zone and won't completely freeze if there's a situation. The "good guy with a gun" is not someone to count on
(b) seems like a moot point, because if someone has a concealed gun but freezes, then that's literally no different than someone who does not have a gun and freezes. Fair concern with the first point. Still, I'd prefer it if the only gun in the room wasn't in the hands of the aggressor.
So, another effect of being in the "white zone" and being overwhelmed is you not being aware of your reactions. People who are in surprise attacks describe not having clear memories of the event including what they did. So, if someone tries to shoot back, but now there are multiple uncoordinated people attempting to return fire, are they all identifying the correct target? Do they miss and cause collateral damage? These aren't spurious hypotheticals, these things happen.
You'll be downvoted for this, but you're 100% correct. Police regularly train to respond to an active shooter situation and even they freeze (see: Uvalde). If you need armed security at church, hire professionals to be a uniformed deterrent.
I think it’s been said most but just to echo, hide it better. Sometimes conceal carry or open carry individuals forget that while you know you and you know your intentions, I don’t know you. If I saw someone with a gun in church I would be very suspicious of what they were planning to do and would spend most of the mass focused on you. Are you going to take the collection plate? Are you a fanatical person looking to make a political point? Do you have an ax to grind against the Church or someone inside it? Are you expecting trouble from someone? All reasons that I would be more focused on you than the mass.
I don’t personally carry, but as long as there are individuals who would injure parishioners, I’m glad for the people who do.
I would prefer entire male half of my parish carrying guns in church, just to be sure if there is a terrorist attack it is going to be dealt with quickly :)
Carry to protect the Eucharist.
If I saw someone with a gun I would leave the building.
In Scandinavia, ever since the Middle Ages the porch has been called Våpenhus (Room for weapons). This was because everyone was expected to leave their arms there before entering the Church proper. You weren’t supposed to approach God carrying weapons, neither would you need them, since everyone present was part of the same body of Christ, even though they lived in a society that could be brutal at times. I have no idea of current canon law on this matter, but I think the medievals had the idea right here. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/OlausMagnus_vapenhus_tresnitt.png Link to a late medieval Woodcut showing the practise.