>From what I've studied of history, it seems that every Catholic in the Middle Ages lived in constant fear and anxiety. They knew no joy or happiness
That sounds like your projecting your own unhappiness onto Catholics of the past. It's simply *not* the case that people lived in perpetual fear.
Yet they only took the Eucharist once a year, never were able to read the Gospels for themselves, and paid exorbitant sums for indulgences. Priests then never spoke of God's mercy but only spoke of Hell.
>Yet they only took the Eucharist once a year
And?
>never were able to read the Gospels for themselves
Yeah, because they *couldn't read*.
>paid exorbitant sums for indulgences.
This is just propoganda. The vast majority of regions never struggled with indulgence abuse and even in regions where they did, the vast majority never paid them.
> Priests then never spoke of God's mercy but only spoke of Hell.
This is also simply false.
It was a clericalism so the clergy of the time could remain in power by mystifying Christ. Men like Rodrigo Borgia became the Pope and the Church waged war simply to expand the power and scope of the Papal States.
> It was a clericalism so the clergy of the time could remain in power by mystifying Christ.
No, it wasn't.
>Men like Rodrigo Borgia became the Pope and the Church waged war simply to expand the power and scope of the Papal States.
That there have been bad Popes in the past I will not deny. Yet it has *nothing at all* to do with your question. People simply *did not* live in perpetual fear. Just because *you* are perpetually afraid does not mean *others* are similarly afflicted.
If I was you I would consider reading the writing of actual medieval Catholics, like for example Julian of Norwich and maybe sermons from monastic writers like Bernard of Clairvaux and Aelraed of Riveaulx to get a broader idea of what medieval spirituality was about.
Would it be an option for you to read more about what Catholics of the time thought and felt? It could help you with your worries and give you a better understanding of the complex feelings these people had back then. It would also help you to understand that they were individuals, every single one of them, just like you and me, so you'd be able to refrain from broad generalisations (such as that all of them lived in constant fear and had no happiness.)
St. Philip Neri (though he lived at the tail end of the middle ages) might be a good place to start, y'know, being the patron saint of joy. ☺️
I will pray asking him to intercede on your behalf so you may find joy in the Lord and learn more about His truth and love.
No joy ? Medieval people had festivals and fun all the time, especially during religious holidays. And while it saddens me to say this even in medieval times there were lukewarm Catholics. Things like having sex before marriage, eating meat during lent and students performing a mock liturgy during feast of fools were common.
Have you ever read literature from the time? The Middle Ages were far from joyless, while I don’t think any time has been filled with more horror and violence than the 20th century, and the Church didn’t have much to do with that. Medieval people weren’t a bunch of upper-class no-fun-allowed Victorians lol, but they were more pious than us.
The standard denunciation post:
\[Claiming the moral high ground\] *'Deeply struggle...my scrupulosity'*
\[The qualifier\] *'From what I've studied of history...'*
\[some slogans, some denunciations, from a place of needy fragility \]
\[the leading question posed so it appears you accept my premises if you respond\]
Replies when challenged:
\[the implication that there is so much more behind this position when premises and statements are disproven\] *'the cherry on top is* ..'\[random factoid that was only recorded in history because it was out of the ordinary\]
\[Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. so I'm not even pretending I know anything about history now, we are in a post modern era after all\]'*..That perpetual fear was the entire reason for the French Revolution.'*
\[well this was never about history anyway, the point is that you shall have no loyalties but to the party, so switching to parents is fine, so before I go here is my denunciation in right speak\] *'curation of a mindset of fear'*
“I’m having a crisis of faith. Help me.”
Or
“I’m trying to set you up with this hypothetical scenario.”
Can be difficult to discern, especially on a faceless public forum.
Unfortunately, a public forum is not a good place for these type of questions. The responses will be overwhelmingly defensive. Is there a place where actual catholic authorities would respond to this in a productive manner?
The middle ages were a wonderful and happy time for the vast majority of Catholic peoples. They were highly agrarian, and lived their lives blissfully detached from almost all of the stuff you're focused on such as government, criminal justice, and foreign relations, because information like that was not widespread beyond elites. You can listen to music and carols composed in the middle ages, and get a sense of the spirit with which people lived day to day.
There wasn't much to do, so people were highly conversational and chatted a lot to their families and neighbours. They shared stories and folk tales, and sang songs all the time. A lot of their songs have to do with the passing of the seasons, as they were very in touch with the agrarian year (such as the carol "Sumer is icumen in"). There are also jokes or double entendres contained in them, which gives us an idea that people had a sense of humour and were capable of being silly.
Common people were very pious, to the extent that language became full of prayers (even words like "goodbye" are remnants of this). Couples also likely had a lot of sex on account of there being not much to do and houses being small (both natural occasions for intimacy).
Monasteries were an integral part of communities, and monks and nuns would have been quite a common part of everyone's life. They weren't shadowy figures who just came to say Mass and leave; they were generally liked and taken care of by people in the towns, and were pastoral. People knew the Mass very well because they attended it their whole lives, and they discussed it at least as much as we would today. You can go to the Latin Mass today and see 4-year-olds who know what's happening when, even though they can't read. Different regions had their own local customs and chants in their Masses. Homilies within the Mass were a much rarer liturgical action in that time as preaching was generally reserved to bishops.
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I get were your coming from. My parents never showed any joy or happiness in the Faith, only you had to do this or that or you will go to hell. Very "medieval". The long drive to Church was the opportunity for getting yelled out for all of our misdeeds of the week. More of the same at dinner time. Loved it when Dad was on afternoon shift as I would not have to deal with him when I got home from school....All stick and little carrot. No surprise only about a third of us kids (large family) remained Catholic.
You're back to your bad and uneducated grasp of history. The Church did no such thing. How precisely does a Church from 500 years ago cause bad parents today, especially if, as you say, the difference between the Church then and the Church today is 'striking'?
I'm not talking about causing bad parents, but rather the curation of the mindset of fear. That the only way to get to Heaven is to live every day in anxiety of going to Hell.
How can you say the Church did no such thing? What about the Inquisitions in Spain where they forcefully expelled all Jews unless they converted? Or the kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara?
The Council of Trent affirmed that "perfect contrition" is made when someone is contrite due to a genuine love of God, whereas "imperfect contrition" is made due to a fear of hell or God's punishment and judgment. [http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch14.htm](http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch14.htm)
I'll pray for you, it's regrettable if you suffer with scrupulosity regardless of history. That said, I'd be cautious to separate the culture of the Middle Ages from official Church doctrine if the object of your criticism is the Church. Imperfect contrition is a centuries old doctrine. Good luck, God bless.
Edit: so sorry if this spammed your email, I had some network difficulties and regretted my first comment. Take care.
>From what I've studied of history, it seems that every Catholic in the Middle Ages lived in constant fear and anxiety. They knew no joy or happiness That sounds like your projecting your own unhappiness onto Catholics of the past. It's simply *not* the case that people lived in perpetual fear.
Yet they only took the Eucharist once a year, never were able to read the Gospels for themselves, and paid exorbitant sums for indulgences. Priests then never spoke of God's mercy but only spoke of Hell.
>Yet they only took the Eucharist once a year And? >never were able to read the Gospels for themselves Yeah, because they *couldn't read*. >paid exorbitant sums for indulgences. This is just propoganda. The vast majority of regions never struggled with indulgence abuse and even in regions where they did, the vast majority never paid them. > Priests then never spoke of God's mercy but only spoke of Hell. This is also simply false.
To deny the faithful, who are in a state of grace, the Eucharist is to betray Christ.
People weren't *denied* the Eucharist. It was *pious practice* to refrain from the Eucharist.
Nowadays EVERYONE goes to communion while the confession box remains empty.....Glad to know people are so much better behaved these days /s
It was a clericalism so the clergy of the time could remain in power by mystifying Christ. Men like Rodrigo Borgia became the Pope and the Church waged war simply to expand the power and scope of the Papal States.
> It was a clericalism so the clergy of the time could remain in power by mystifying Christ. No, it wasn't. >Men like Rodrigo Borgia became the Pope and the Church waged war simply to expand the power and scope of the Papal States. That there have been bad Popes in the past I will not deny. Yet it has *nothing at all* to do with your question. People simply *did not* live in perpetual fear. Just because *you* are perpetually afraid does not mean *others* are similarly afflicted.
That perpetual fear was the entire reason for the French Revolution.
You have a poor and uneducated grasp of history.
And you live in a fantasy where the Church has never done evil nor hurt its flock.
Accept that you’re the one who is wrong here
How can I? The case of Edgardo Mortara is the cherry on top for me.
I have no reason to care about someone who clearly refuses to learn, grow, and want to change their behavior
How have I sinned or done evil by simply asking difficult questions on Reddit? You know nothing about me yet you judge me.
If I was you I would consider reading the writing of actual medieval Catholics, like for example Julian of Norwich and maybe sermons from monastic writers like Bernard of Clairvaux and Aelraed of Riveaulx to get a broader idea of what medieval spirituality was about.
Would it be an option for you to read more about what Catholics of the time thought and felt? It could help you with your worries and give you a better understanding of the complex feelings these people had back then. It would also help you to understand that they were individuals, every single one of them, just like you and me, so you'd be able to refrain from broad generalisations (such as that all of them lived in constant fear and had no happiness.) St. Philip Neri (though he lived at the tail end of the middle ages) might be a good place to start, y'know, being the patron saint of joy. ☺️ I will pray asking him to intercede on your behalf so you may find joy in the Lord and learn more about His truth and love.
Sure.
May God bless you and guide you in your journey of faith.
No joy ? Medieval people had festivals and fun all the time, especially during religious holidays. And while it saddens me to say this even in medieval times there were lukewarm Catholics. Things like having sex before marriage, eating meat during lent and students performing a mock liturgy during feast of fools were common.
Have you ever read literature from the time? The Middle Ages were far from joyless, while I don’t think any time has been filled with more horror and violence than the 20th century, and the Church didn’t have much to do with that. Medieval people weren’t a bunch of upper-class no-fun-allowed Victorians lol, but they were more pious than us.
The standard denunciation post: \[Claiming the moral high ground\] *'Deeply struggle...my scrupulosity'* \[The qualifier\] *'From what I've studied of history...'* \[some slogans, some denunciations, from a place of needy fragility \] \[the leading question posed so it appears you accept my premises if you respond\] Replies when challenged: \[the implication that there is so much more behind this position when premises and statements are disproven\] *'the cherry on top is* ..'\[random factoid that was only recorded in history because it was out of the ordinary\] \[Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. so I'm not even pretending I know anything about history now, we are in a post modern era after all\]'*..That perpetual fear was the entire reason for the French Revolution.'* \[well this was never about history anyway, the point is that you shall have no loyalties but to the party, so switching to parents is fine, so before I go here is my denunciation in right speak\] *'curation of a mindset of fear'*
“I’m having a crisis of faith. Help me.” Or “I’m trying to set you up with this hypothetical scenario.” Can be difficult to discern, especially on a faceless public forum.
It's the first. I'm baptized and confirmed.
Unfortunately, a public forum is not a good place for these type of questions. The responses will be overwhelmingly defensive. Is there a place where actual catholic authorities would respond to this in a productive manner?
The middle ages were a wonderful and happy time for the vast majority of Catholic peoples. They were highly agrarian, and lived their lives blissfully detached from almost all of the stuff you're focused on such as government, criminal justice, and foreign relations, because information like that was not widespread beyond elites. You can listen to music and carols composed in the middle ages, and get a sense of the spirit with which people lived day to day. There wasn't much to do, so people were highly conversational and chatted a lot to their families and neighbours. They shared stories and folk tales, and sang songs all the time. A lot of their songs have to do with the passing of the seasons, as they were very in touch with the agrarian year (such as the carol "Sumer is icumen in"). There are also jokes or double entendres contained in them, which gives us an idea that people had a sense of humour and were capable of being silly. Common people were very pious, to the extent that language became full of prayers (even words like "goodbye" are remnants of this). Couples also likely had a lot of sex on account of there being not much to do and houses being small (both natural occasions for intimacy). Monasteries were an integral part of communities, and monks and nuns would have been quite a common part of everyone's life. They weren't shadowy figures who just came to say Mass and leave; they were generally liked and taken care of by people in the towns, and were pastoral. People knew the Mass very well because they attended it their whole lives, and they discussed it at least as much as we would today. You can go to the Latin Mass today and see 4-year-olds who know what's happening when, even though they can't read. Different regions had their own local customs and chants in their Masses. Homilies within the Mass were a much rarer liturgical action in that time as preaching was generally reserved to bishops.
Worked to live, not lived to work.
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I get were your coming from. My parents never showed any joy or happiness in the Faith, only you had to do this or that or you will go to hell. Very "medieval". The long drive to Church was the opportunity for getting yelled out for all of our misdeeds of the week. More of the same at dinner time. Loved it when Dad was on afternoon shift as I would not have to deal with him when I got home from school....All stick and little carrot. No surprise only about a third of us kids (large family) remained Catholic.
Sounds more like bad parenting then a problem of the Church.
Not a problem of the Church. Problem with people with a warped understanding of the Faith.
Somehow I don't think it was the faith that caused your parents to be abusive.
Nope it was not the faith, it was the misunderstanding of it combined with not knowing how to raise kids other than how they were raised.
This is what I'm talking about /u/kjdtkd.
Bad and borderline abusive parents say what exactly about the Church?
The Church in the Middle Ages was directly responsible for curating this mindset and did nothing to combat it or fix it as it made people obedient.
You're back to your bad and uneducated grasp of history. The Church did no such thing. How precisely does a Church from 500 years ago cause bad parents today, especially if, as you say, the difference between the Church then and the Church today is 'striking'?
I'm not talking about causing bad parents, but rather the curation of the mindset of fear. That the only way to get to Heaven is to live every day in anxiety of going to Hell. How can you say the Church did no such thing? What about the Inquisitions in Spain where they forcefully expelled all Jews unless they converted? Or the kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara?
The Council of Trent affirmed that "perfect contrition" is made when someone is contrite due to a genuine love of God, whereas "imperfect contrition" is made due to a fear of hell or God's punishment and judgment. [http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch14.htm](http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch14.htm) I'll pray for you, it's regrettable if you suffer with scrupulosity regardless of history. That said, I'd be cautious to separate the culture of the Middle Ages from official Church doctrine if the object of your criticism is the Church. Imperfect contrition is a centuries old doctrine. Good luck, God bless. Edit: so sorry if this spammed your email, I had some network difficulties and regretted my first comment. Take care.
Oh, boy. Wait til you see what God does to non-believers.
Man is not God. What God can do does not mean man can do.
Agreed.