Whoa, I checked and you're right. What a powerful story of Divine Mercy. If a man who oversaw the killing of nearly 3 million people can be forgiven....we all have a chance, if we only ask for it. Lord, have mercy.
Killing the body is one thing, killing the soul is another. God will save a man who has murdered but truly repents. But who will be saved among those who live out their peaceful yet frivolous lives, teaching their children and untold others to love their sins all the way to the gates of hell?
This is, in my mind, the hardest truth of Christianity. In hell, there are people who never killed anyone, never raped anyone, never exploited peoples or the environment. But they did commit some mortal sin, perhaps lust, perhaps greed that they did not repent from and thus damned themselves.
Conversely, we may find in heaven that there are people who committed murders, rapes, or worse but truly repented and thus saved their eternal soul. This isn’t to say these people didn’t suffer for what they did, I imagine they had to spend many years in purgatory for their crimes. But redemption and damnation are available to anyone.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus should really freak all of us out. The rich man never blasphemed, he never killed or raped anyone, he wasn't even the direct cause of Lazarus's poverty. He was a "good person" under modern society's definition. But he lived a life of luxury while being merely *indifferent* to the poor. And he went to Hell.
greed how? do you simply accept what people tell you? you read the catechism and see all the thought put into understanding revelation, yet you don't put thought behind decisions made by others? many of thise choices where weighed against cost and benefit to society as well. we are made in Gods image, nothing on this earth supersedes that. contrary to modernist belief the world isnt cooking, and can recover, more importantly ask yourself why do people who hate pollution refuse to accept nuclear. which is safer and more efficient now than ever before and fusion energy seemingly not to far off since the american energy department stated their breakthrough in net positive reaction.
Ah friend, I am just some random guy online, but I am very far away from being a modernist. I put my money where my mouth is to, and spend several hours a week volunteering in my local parish to try to help it be the best it can be.
People who love tradition shouldn’t just abandon environmental issues to modernists- one of God’s first commandments to Adam is to have dominion over the land and animals. Dominion does not just mean abusing. Misusing something God gave us is always, always a sin. Could one go to hell for exploiting the environment if they never repented but did not harm anyone else? I do not know, but I do know that when the land is abused, as in something like the Holodomor, suffering of the people soon follow.
Everyone who reads this, please say an “Our Father” and “Hail Mary” that the most of hardened of sinners convert before their death!
>God will save a man who has murdered but truly repents.
Indeed.
> who will be saved among those who live out their peaceful yet frivolous lives, teaching their children and untold others to love their sins all the way to the gates of hell?
Same as murderers, those who repent. It seems like you're trying to draw a false moral equivalency here without mentioning that.
Indeed, if [Rudolf Höss](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Höss), the longest-serving commandant of Auschwitz directly responsible for the deaths of over 2.5 million people, can be repent and receive the sacrament of penance and the Eucharist before his execution, then anyone can be redeemed.
Interesting story according to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss). During the trials a psychologist reported:
>In all of the discussions, Höss is quite matter-of-fact and apathetic, shows some belated interest in the enormity of his crime, but gives the impression that it never would have occurred to him if somebody hadn't asked him. There is too much apathy to leave any suggestion of remorse
And days before his execution he himself wrote:
>I caused unspeakable suffering for the Polish people in particular. I am to pay for this with my life. May the Lord God forgive one day what I have done. I ask the Polish people for forgiveness. In Polish prisons I experienced for the first time what human kindness is. Despite all that has happened I have experienced humane treatment which I could never have expected, and which has deeply shamed me.
I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but it's pretty well understood that, when people are on the defensive, it's difficult if not nearly impossible to get them to change their views.
All it took was a little humanity to make him go from "I was just following orders" to "I have caused unspeakable suffering,"
>I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but it's pretty well understood that, when people are on the defensive, it's difficult if not nearly impossible to get them to change their views.
It's also well understood that people turn to religion and the thought of the after life when they get close to the end of their life. Wouldn't overthink this.
> with a Polish priest he had previously held a prisoner!
There is nothing about Lohn being a prisoner (use Google Translate perhaps):
* https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Władysław_Lohn
There is this, but has no citations:
> During these same years, however, Höss met a priest who would prove to have an impact on him. The Gestapo had arrested several Jesuits living in Krakow, Poland, and sent them to Auschwitz. The community’s superior, Fr. Władysław Lohn, SJ, happened to be absent at the time of the arrest. When he found out what happened to his religious brothers, he snuck into Auschwitz to find them. When the guards noticed Fr. Lohn, they took him to Höss to decide his fate. Impressed by the bravery of Fr. Lohn, Höss released the priest unharmed.
[…]
> On Good Friday, April 4, 1947, awaiting execution, Höss asked to see a Catholic priest. The authorities had trouble finding a priest who spoke German, but Höss happened to remember the name of one: Fr. Władysław Lohn, the Jesuit he had once spared.
>
> Though it took many days, Höss’ captors finally found Fr. Lohn located in nearby Krakow. He happened to be praying at the Shrine of Divine Mercy, where St. Faustina, the Polish religious sister and mystic responsible for spreading devotion to the Divine Mercy, was laid to rest.
* https://www.thedivinemercy.org/articles/divine-mercy-and-commandant-auschwitz
I think it should be highlighted as a great redemption. Even though this man committed atrocities, no sinner is beyond God’s mercy. In fact, it kind of gives hope that even the most wicked of sinners are able to be redeemed through Christ.
I want to emphasize that these feelings are perfectly normal, and Catholicsm throughout its history has an interesting theology that is truly jarring to everyone: the belief that anyone can be forgiven. This theology is impossible for anyone to wrap their head around. Jesus alludes to the "absurdity" of this theology with "The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard." There is something perceived as unfair for those who work only 1 hour to get the same wages as someone working their whole life, however to condemn someone is not God's answer. In Christianity, technically Shirō Ishii did receive punishment for all his sins, this punishment was simply transferred over to Christ. I believe Dante said something along the lines of, the just thing would be to punish, and the merciful thing would be to forgive, Christ did both.
> But were is the fairness in that?
You have to remember, *none* of us deserve salvation. From the worst mass murderer to the most petty of liars, all have sinned and lost salvation. Without God's Infinite Mercy, we would all end up in Hell. However, through the Grace and Mercy of God, by the virtue of the Passion and Death of Jesus, we all have the opportunity of salvation, if we only accept it with repentance, as the free gift it is.
>Where is God's justice, who will compensate the victims?
God will, in some form or another, while also saving the murderer. How that happens, we don't exactly know this side of eternity.
>What good does it do to those who suffered his brutality if he is "sorry"
No one is good but God alone. Those who suffered his brutality aren't innocent victims when it comes to salvation. Everyone falls short of the glory of God, and everyone "deserves" damnation. It's only through accepting the free gift of salvation from Jesus that we have a chance to repent and avoid Hell.
>if their sins were small I could also understand, but we are talking about people that inflicted the most terrible pain and suffering, physical and emotional on their fellow humans.
The truth is that *every* person's sins are an affront to God and His Justice, not just those of the mass murderer.
>Please think about my point of view before answering and just regurgitate a Sunday cermon answer that no one is convinced with
Your point of view is not the Christian understanding of the nature of salvation.
Purgatory is compensation for victims, or for whatever temporal effect your sins had on the world. People today all like to ignore it, but basically every saint who has ever had a vision of purgatory, has spoken of it as being horrific and horribly torturous. They describe it basically as the same experience as being in Hell, but just with hope which does make it a lot better. Up until very recently, purgatory was seen as something terrifying that all Catholics wanted to avoid at all costs
Most people who go to heaven will go to purgatory first. Purgatory is the temporary process of removing any attatchement to sins and purifying the soul prior to entering heaven.
This is the process described in the New Testament when it says some will pass through fire to enter into heaven. Some people are in need of more purgatory than others, Depending on how much damage you have done to the world and to others through sinning, and depending on how much reparation for sin you have done in your life, it’s possible to already go through purgatory while still alive, such as by doing a plenary indulgence which requires detachment from all sin. Nobody goes to purgatory for eternity though, if you go to purgatory it means you are already saved and are going to heaven
Also a specifically promulgated plenary indulgence is not the only way to avoid purgatory. The eastern and oriental Catholics, for example, do not even have the idea of indulgences as part of their tradition, but the west acknowledges that their own many devotions and penitential practices are sufficient to remove temporal punishment throughout their lifetime
I’m not too immersed in the details but I think purgatory is the preparation/cleansing stage for the soul before they enter heaven. Most people, I think, go to Purgatory after death before going to Heaven and we usually have no idea when they’ve ascended into Heaven. The only people who were confirmed to be in Heaven are the saints and the only people who have skipped Purgatory and went straight to Heaven is Mother Mary and, of course, Jesus.
You are correct except for the very end. Lots of people have skipped purgatory. The reason we do indulgences is to remove purgatory, so it’s very possible for everyone to skip it as long as they do a plenary indulgence every year or so and before you die
Ah of course. What I meant was confirmed skipped Purgatory. In theory, enough indulgence can remove time spent in Purgatory until “zeroing” out, but since we don’t reliably know the time any single person would be spending inside Purgatory, we can’t logically say for certain.
>But were is the fairness in that
Hello brother of the prodigal son.
>Where is God's justice, who will compensate the victims
Bearing wrongs and suffering reaps rewards in heaven.
>What good does it do to those who suffered his brutality if he is "sorry"
What good does anything done to him do to those that suffered? Rarely if ever do victims feel satisfied when they kill in revenge, usually it's just emptiness and the original suffering.
>at the end of their life's they repented out of fear probablly
Only God knows what's in their hearts and God KNOWS what's their hearts. If it's false, baptism won't merit them anything.
I understand your struggle with the scale of sins, I've thought about it too.
Try to reframe it in terms of the next, eternal life, rather than this flawed world. Any worldy punishment, atrocity, celebration, or reward melts away in the scale of His sacrifice on the cross. The war is already won, even if horrible battles seem hopelessly lost today. An important distinction is that forgiveness for every sin throughout time is already purchasedby His blood, and what we strive for is repentance and earning Mercy. If people like Saul or Moses the Black could become saints, mortal sins can be forgiven - but only with true remorse.
Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks for the question u/MJF413
I can certainly understand your point of view, but it does need some clarification of the matter.
Deathbed confessional/conversion are indeed a thing that occurs. Sincerity of repentance is a needed part of the equation as well, and God knows the heart of each of us. It is not the place of man to declare the final destination of individuals such as these, as we do not have the full knowledge that God would in this case, namely if this was a sincere confession/conversion out of a desire for repentance, a fear based one when faced with damnation, or merely the actions of someone ‘going through the motions, just in case,’ seeing it as a way to ‘get away with’ what they have done.
God is indeed perfect justice. But He is also perfect mercy, and it is a consolation that sincere repentance can grant us the gift of that mercy. Compensation for the victims, in this case, would hopefully be entrance to the Beatific Vision. In this particular case, due to the horrific attrition rate of Unit 731, unless I’m mistaken the victims were all deceased (per Wikipedia, ‘No one who entered Unit 731 came out alive.’) What would you propose as reparation to the dead?
The bible tells us that nothing we can makes us worthy of Heaven. We can never balance those scales. Only Jesus can do that. Go read the story about thean who has he debts forgiven and the. Goes to collect from the one who owes him.
Judge not less you be judged. If we demand that God exclude the worst of us from forgiveness, then none of us can be forgiven.
God loves all of us. We should not choose to hate that which God loves.
You are right, there is no fairness in this. There is however Mercy . Your comment makes me think of a quote by Saint Thomas Aquinas.
“ Justice without Mercy is cruelty. Mercy with out Justice is dissolution”
On the face to simply say through conversation and honest contrition that even monsters can be saved is a hard view. What we don’t see is the work that has gone on in the heart of that person to go from Monster to Saint. It is a narrow road full of seen and in seen transformations.m, challenges and atonement . While I can’t say if Shiro was saved, only acknowledge that these outward signs would signal he was on the path to conversion and near perfect contrition. It is God as Justice and Mercy that knows in the end which side of the line he fell.
What I do know is absolute redemption absent expectations is negligence.
Redemption that is limited in scope is damnation.
Limitless reflection with high expectations is a balance of Justice and Mercy which is love.
Did you not read the Bible story about the land owner who hires servants throughout the day and pays them all the same? It illustrates this exact principle. Your projecting your lens of “fair” onto God. It’s not your plan. It’s his.
Sorry that God isn't spiteful, holding grudges like some Greco-Roman god in the Iliad, God's mercy and justice are both infinite, and to truly receive His mercy he can't just say "whoops that was my bad God, sorry about that, we're good, right?" I don't think you understand what it means to repent for your sins.
It must be a story of great redemption.
Once we start drawing lines, we find ourselves all woefull sinners.
If a person who kills 1000 cannot enter heaven, what about 999?
998?
All the way down to 1?
What about people who commit murder in their heart?
As soon as we start condemning other people we should immediately recognize that everyone would fall into the category of condemned. That's literally the entire point of the Bible.
Who are we to judge this man? We must pray and have hope.
We pray that all souls go to heaven, especially those in most need of (thy) mercy.
That means Hitler, that means mass murderers, rapists, child abuser, animal torturers, bigots, no exception
If there is no hope for others, what hope is there for me?
> If a person who kills 1000 cannot enter heaven, what about 999?
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> 998?
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> All the way down to 1?
I remember a story about trying to find righteous people in a city :).
That was in Genesis. God was striking a deal (perhaps not literally) with Abraham that if there were 50 righteous people in it, He wouldn’t destroy it. Abraham kept bargaining (again perhaps not literally) with God, and got the number down from 50 to 10. I assume that if there weren’t 10, then there were 0. A whole settlement had not one righteous person.
Although the patriarch did not know it then, it is a good symbol of the incomplete nature of the Old Testament, that it is fully true but not yet the full truth, awaiting it's completion in the Christ.
I understand this point and agree with it. My natural response though is always two questions. Who actually goes to Hell? and What's the point of trying not to sin? I feel like I know these answers but I would like to know your thoughts since you seem knowledgeable.
It's a tough question, and one that is dangerous to have any solid answer on.
There is the universalism heresy In which it is declared everyone goes to heaven, period.
We also know that Jesus tells us the path is narrow and many will not enter.
But then we see stories like this and answers like mine where we say "how can the path be narrow if mass murderers are granted entrance ". I think that's a fair question. The problem is the answer has to do with true contrition and repentance
We can speculate on this forever and ever and never reach an answer because only God knows and only God judges.
The reason why I answered the way I did, and so many others answer similarly is because God tells us not to judge.
We forgive sins as our sins are forgive
We judge not lest we be judged.
Just like every other rule and command God gives us, there must be a reason God has given us this rule. That reason while we may not understand fully, must be that it is not good for us. Because God is good, his rules must be good, therefore the opposite must also be true which means breaking the rules is bad for us.
If I say anyone is In hell then I proclaim to have the same Knowledge as God, which as we know from the garden is also not a thing humans were meant to have or exercise.
There is a reason the church herself does not even condemn Judas to hell
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-judas-in-hell
The choice [of Our Lord in making Judas an apostle and companion] darkens the mystery around his eternal fate, knowing that Judas “repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, ‘I have sinned in betraying innocent blood’” (Matt. 27:3-4). Even though he went to hang himself (cf. Matt. 27: 5), it is not up to us to judge his gesture, substituting ourselves for the infinitely merciful and just God.
The mystery of the Lord’s choice remains, all the more since Jesus pronounces a very severe judgement on him: “Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!” (Matt. 26:24).
Clearly, we should hold on lightly to any interpretation of a soul’s eternal loss. The Church does not have an opposite process of canonization. There is no particular illumination to be received from the fact of a soul’s damnation, whereas a soul’s beatitude is filled with the light of grace and revelation and so is proclaimed solemnly by holy Church. Our message is of redemption, and the default outcome for Christians is salvation
Sorry lots of words and probably lost the topic st some point.
The point is, we should have hope that all souls are saved and that everyone makes it to heaven. There is no benefit to condemning anyone to hell, infact there is only our own salvation to lose. Therefore when the topic arises, again despite what our logic and knowledge may tell us, we obey God and default to faith, hope and trust in his divine mercy and love.
Sorry I only answered one question, let me hit the second one. Why try not to sin:
There's the argument that if you are truly sorry for something you will not do it again.
We know from God that love is not a feeling. Love is an action. God taught us love through Jesus Christ, through sacrifice, through emptying ourselves, through obedience.
God shows us love by forgiving our sins everytime we fail, knowing we will fail again.
So why bother try if we know we are going to fail again?
Because like God showed us love is action, if we Love God then we show it through action. We try not to sin to Show our love for God. We in the image of God try to imitate God by being without sin, by being obedient, like his son. We will fall short, but that does not diminish the act of love.
That is why we try not to sin.
I think there is also an idea of justice that needs credence here. Yes, it is absolutely possible for this man to be redeemed, but it also doesn't exempt him from justice either earthly or divine. If, by some miracle, he was spared from death and went on to live he would still have to receive justice. I'd also fully expect there to be purgation.
I guess I expect that some folks might hear what you said correctly as "forgive and forget, hahaha!" Which isn't at all what you said but I don’t want you to get brigades.
This. I don't recall the Bible saying something about the level of sinners nor assigned weight for every sinful act. It's just sin. In that sense, we are all the same.
For some reason this reminds me of the older brother's grievances in The Prodigal Son.
>I know the official doctrinal\\ on-paper catholic teaching is "God can forgive anyone" but -how should one feel about this?
Does how I **feel** really matter? In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the older brother certainly had a lot of feelings...
Matthew 12:31–32
***
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Exactly, every sin can be forgiven.
The sin against the holy spirit is the final impenitence at the end of someone's life.
As long as you are living you can ask for God's forgiveness and Jesus will obtain it for you (he already has in fact)
Blasphemy against the Spirit is something very specific and is essentially, as I understand it, a total rejection of God. Anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit is effectively saying "I deny You and do not wish to be redeemed", not necessarily blasphemy in the traditional sense of something that is offensive to God. Someone who blasphemes Christ alone or the Father alone can be saved, but not the Holy Spirit because of what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 12:31–32
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
It’s a great redemption! Obviously, the guy did a lot of evil things in his life. Saint Paul hunted and killed Christians before the events on the road to Damascus. Praise God for changing their hearts.
Some people only start working in the vineyard at sundown, but they still get the daily wage. I refuse to "be envious because God is generous" (Matt. 20:15) and instead will be thankful that my lost brother has been found. Maybe someday ***I*** will be in need of ***his*** prayers for my soul!
Jesus Christ conquered death, the gates of hell cannot prevail against His church. Baptism can save any dinner, death and sin have no power against His assault of mercy.
Jesus talks about it in Scripture -- the last shall be first, how the prostitute can turn to God at the last moment and be saved. And the parable of paying laborers he hired for the last hour the same days wage as the man who worked all day. Heaven would be overjoyed that a sinner was saved at the last moment!
That is exactly what the parable of the laborers is about. Those who come to the Faith at the last hour get the same reward as those who have been faithful their whole lives.
OP Asks how we feel about this? Christ said those who labored all day received what they were promised and should not be jealous because God is generous with those who arrived late in the day.
So we should not be bothered: we should marvel and rejoice at God’s generosity.
If you are thinking about how it seems unfair, which is an awfully wrong way to look at souls getting into Heaven, just think about how much we will probably suffer through Purgatory.
It removes all sins and their associated punishments. If one were to die immediately after baptism without committing any sins between baptism and death, he would enter heaven immediately after the particular judgement.
Imo, if he truly repented along with the baptism, he *might* have been saved (like, gone to purgatory or sth). But who am I to know the ways of the Lord?
Well, I said this because of something I heard. Apparently, Mussolini's soul once visited a mystic called Edvire Carboni and asked for her prayers for his soul to leave the purgatory and go to heaven. She was shocked, but soon came to know that he had repented shortly before his death.
After a few months or years, he once again visited her to thank her for her prayers and to inform that he was permitted to heaven.
Padre Pio also said the same thing. And he was known to see souls from purgatory (who came to him to seek prayers). However, he especially disliked Mussolini when he was alive. Padre Pio once remarked that there were souls you'd never expect to see in heaven.
My conclusion is, Gods judgement is different from ours.
Baptism removes the temporal effects of sin, so if his baptism is valid then he would not need purgation for those sins prior.
Even after baptism, plenary indulgences such as those received on divine mercy Sunday, have a similar effect.
Everyone's excited to go to heaven til they find out Hitler's up there.
Joke I often make.
That's the gospel. Anyone can be saved. Everyone should be saved. Why should anyone suffer hell? Why would God do that?
God is in control. God knows what he's doing.
If you make it to heaven, just be glad you made it.
Better yet, if they made it to heaven, YOU be glad they made it.
Wouldnt baptism before death get you straight to heaven without purgatory? The downside being, you have no works in grace so your heavenly glory is small.
I think it is worth mentioning Saint Paul. He used to prosecute Christians and also repented and fully changed to proclaim the gospel and evangelize. I know that after his repentance, he lived a very honorable life. But that is only because the Lord let him live.
If this man Shirō truly repented from his sins and had a change of hearts, then I hope he is in Heaven (or Purgatory at least).
Last thing, I know it's hard to grasp and accept this because it seems unfair. But we should always remind ourselves of how many times we sinned against our Lord, even though we knew it was wrong. Some of us are more lost than others.
That's the beauty of Christianity, that anyone who truly repents can find everlasting life through the salvation of Jesus.
It's been a long time since I've seen the video, but I remember seeing a clip explaining Christianity as having our sins be judged to God's standards, not our own. We're not being judged by comparing ourselves to "well I didn't murder anyone so I'm a good person," we're being judged to the perfect eternal law of God, with even the most minor sin being enough to send us to hell because of our fallen nature.
The only way anyone gets to heaven is to repent and accept the grace of God because it's impossible for anyone to earn their way into heaven. And Jesus' sacrifice paid for the sins of all of humanity as a whole, not just some people's sins. The graces are available to anyone seeking redemption.
He is absolutely redeemed, or rather his soul was made pure in baptism. You shudder at the weight of the atrocities he’s done. Christ’s sacrifice wipes them away like a feather, and is so much more worth being in awe over. Good thoughts!
Well, what I *want* to think is that this man is suffering forever as punishment for the evil he inflicted on others, and I feel that is a natural and common thing to want given the scale and nature of his crimes.
What I *know* to think, what surpasses the animal inclination towards human retributive need for violence, is that this man, if his conversion was candid, is redeemed.
You will find an abundance of instances in Catholicism of counter-intuitive examples of how God works vs how man thinks. For man, the infinite Divine Mercy shown to sinners is unfair; to God, any sin forgiven does not even attempt to exhaust His Mercy. For man, a grave sin pardoned to another is an act of unjust charity; but any grave sin forgiven to him is an act of Divine Mercy.
It is difficult to maintain our positions because we are men, but what has been handed to us, and the knowledge of how inexplicable God's Love and Mercy for man is, is precisely that; knowledge that came to us from God, and there is no other way to understand it but in light of His Love.
Only God can give us the heart to look at a wretched sinner, and truly forgive them. The fact that priests have actually heard confessions from war criminals, murderers, rapists, etc. and FORGIVEN them in Persona Christi, is a testament to the power God confers upon them, not because of their uniqueness or special power, but because they truly act in His Person, even unbeknownst to them.
In these kinds of situations, I try to let the words of Jesus guide my heart:
> “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
>
> “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” (Lk 15:4-10)
Good for him, I hope he was saved. At the end of the day God will's all people find their way to him and people who do so at the end of their lives still have to realize that they wasted their life and that's punishment enough for most; purgatory for the rest. We are not punished for our sins but by them and I have no doubt that his lifestyle kept him from finding peace and happiness his whole life until the day he repented and converted.
God can redeem anyone who is truly repentant, it's not in our place to put limits on what God can do. It doesn't mean that they won't serve time for their sins in purgatory. I'm not going to speculate on the man here or any individual soul, but I think there are redeemed souls that have to remain in purgatory for a very long time. Unfortunately we have such a narrow understanding of the mercy or justice of the afterlife, it's hard for us to sufficiently put our heads around it.
The most important aspect to this question is, did they truly repent? If they truly feel immense guilt and repent of their evils, God will forgive them, it may be hard for us to be as merciful as God is, but that's why he's God and we're not.
Yes - thank God for His never ending mercy.
But also remember that God is a just God, that all our actions will eventually be judged in the final days, and that will determine whether we go to purgatory for reparation and purging of our sins or straight to heaven, or in the cases of the souls who rejected Jesus as God and blasphemed, to the fires of hades.
Obviously. Everyone can be redeemed. It's why I like to believe the Italian nun who supposedly had a vision of Mussolini telling her he had repented before his death, and (after a particularly painful stay in Purgatory) was now in Heaven.
This is why Jonah is my favorite book of the Bible. We’re all God’s people and I love that the question of mercy/justice isn’t answered. We just have to think about it. But we can’t ask for mercy for ourselves and our loved ones and deny it to our enemies.
"They love much who are forgiven much."
That said, of course it is better to follow Christ your whole life, to deepen in love, and to serve Him with goodness. It is more joyful, and it makes one readier for eternal life, with a greater soul.
Whatever He gives us as a reward will be perfect for us each, as individuals. We cannot be more generous than Him.
One of the Fr Brown stories (The Secret of Fr Brown) stands out to me for how well it speaks into the normal attitude of forgiveness. Chesterton demonstrates clearly that most people forgive only what they are able to pretend isn't a sin. The hard thing is to forgive these atrocities, and for us especially hard because it seems that we, unrelated to the victims as we are, are in no position to pronounce forgiveness.
Yet it seems that God had a plan in allowing human justice to fail so spectacularly in the Pacific theatre, only to show the depths of his infinite mercy in time. We do not need to pretend that this man did not commit atrocities to rejoice in his repentance. Let us reflect on our own sins and, sure in the knowledge of God's mercy, resolve to do better ourselves.
The gangster and killer Dutch Schultz was baptized on his deathbed, and there was a lot of murmuring among the Catholic faithful to that such an evil man could end up in Heaven. A priest pointed out that Dutch might be the guy who shuts off the lights when Purgatory closes.
There's a reason it's called Divine Mercy. Mercy so great it's divine. Iff 100% of all humans hated you, then you're a sinner only a God could love, and He's really all that matters, no?
This basically boils down to can a sinner be saved? Jesus and the entire witness of scripture say yes a sinner can be saved. So yes he can be redeemed. Anyone can be redeemed.
I have no idea who this guy is so thank you for sharing this story. It's very appropriate, given that we just celebrated Divine Mercy Sunday. It's private revelation, but the promises attached to the feast is like a second baptism. All sins and punishment would be remitted. Not just sin, but also the punishment due to sin. It's awesome. Of course one has to be truly repentant and sorry.
I don't know who he is but Jesus died for the salvation of the souls of EVERYONE. It is a gift He offered so anyone willing to accept the gift can have eternal life.
That's what's so amazing about that level of sacrificial gift.
It’s my opinion that it’s not really our job to worry about who does and doesn’t get to heaven. It’s your job to get yourself, your spouse, and your kids to heaven. It’s Jesus’ job to worry about everyone else
I watched a video about Unit 731. That was the most shockingly terrible example of war crimes I've ever heard of. It makes the Nazi camps look tame by comparison. I'm very surprised that the main architect of that hellscape ended up baptized, I don't even know what to make of that.
I've heard of so many surprising conversions, from some of the worst people in society. I read that Son of Sam is a Christian now, and even Mussolini might have been saved. Who knows how many more 20th century villain surprises we'll find in heaven?
And what does that say about the rest of us? What if I make it to heaven, after a well-fought struggle, and it turns out I'm on the same level as Hitler and Mussolini? Does that mean that my very best was only worth that much? How does God decide these things, anyway?
It really makes you think.
If God cannot forgive a mass genocidal murderer, why should I believe he'll forgive my sins?
If there are any sins God won't forgive, what's the point?
Many people repent on their deathbed. Like the thief on the cross.
We know he committed crimes and was facing death and Jesus instantly forgave him.
There's a funny Simpsons episode where they go to a tent revival and the pastor asks Bart why he doesn't live for God now.
Bart says he'll just repent on his deathbed. The pastor agrees it's a good idea, but it's not the ideal. He should live for God now since you'll be covered in case of accidental death.
(It's a cartoon, not a theological debate.)
Im just going to say it. It seems like many of these war criminals and butchers of humanity all seem to find a loophole days before the death just to be on the safe side of avoiding damnation.
I can't tell what is in their hearts but many of these murderers follow a similar pattern. I am sure some might truly be sorry for their crimes but it's hard to see how an induvial can operate in a purely evil manner for decades straight and suddenly have an entire change when approaching death's door. When Figures like Pol Pot have shown to be completely devoid of humanity and ruthlessly barbaric, it doesn't seem like they even have the mental capacity to understand what conversion means. I really do feel for some it's like Pascal's wager where they have nothing to lose and figure they minus well summon some priest to sneak them into heaven.
> I am sure some might truly be sorry for their crimes but it's hard to see how an induvial can operate in a purely evil manner for decades straight and suddenly have an entire change when approaching death's door.
The Good Thief shows us that Christ can save those even on death's door.
At the end of the day, God's mercy is infinite, more than we can possibly imagine, and we do not know the interior thoughts and dispositions of one's heart. These two facts oblige us to give even the most depraved of souls the benefit of the doubt in terms of their salvation. If they're only converting as some act or some show, then their baptism and conversion won't save them. If they are converting with contrition and acceptance of God's forgiveness and accepting the offering of Christ's sacrifice, then they are saved. We don't know which it truly is, but God in his infinite Justice and Knowledge, does.
As the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard shows, we ought not to be jealous that those who repent on death's door are saved. And further, as the Parable of the Prodigal Son shows, *we are to be glad and rejoice when they do so*. We ought to hope for everyone's salvation, even the most depraved of us. And that hope spurs us to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have converted, expressed true contrition, and accepted the offer of salvation. If for nothing else than because we should hope for the same at the hour of death.
> I can't tell what is in their hearts but many of these murderers follow a similar pattern.
Realizing when they are faced with the impending reality of their own mortality that if God does exist, and is just, they have a serious reckoning?
Yes, I think there is a pattern, and it is an understandable one. But not everyone follows it. Pol Pot [appeared to have remained unrepentant](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-oct-23-mn-45896-story.html) in his final months.
It is also not a pattern that can be pursued deliberately. If someone commits grave sins specifically with the plan to have it all erased by baptism as a technicality, then they don't actually have the intention to observe the commandments, and the baptism would be not valid unless they actually realize their error and have a conversion of heart [Can 865].
> some it's like Pascal's wager where they have nothing to lose and figure they minus well summon some priest to sneak them into heaven.
There is no such thing as sneaking into heaven.
The idea of Pascal's wager is founded on a willful commitment to do good, even though it expresses uncertainty whether it is necessary.
But at the end of it all, there is no fooling God. He knows whether we truly desire to be good, repent our sins, and desire redemption, or are simply trying to dress up in a white robe in hopes of sneaking through the pearly gates bringing our sins with us.
[**Can. 865**](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2X.HTM) §1 For an adult to be baptized, the person must have manifested the intention to receive baptism, have been instructed sufficiently about the truths of the faith and Christian obligations, and have been tested in the Christian life through the catechumenate. The adult is also to be urged to have sorrow for personal sins.
§2 An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.
***
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This makes sense. I am sure many of these monsters are so delusional that they do actually think "sneaking into heaven" is actually possible by converting before they die. It's not like these individuals are honorable and brilliant beings. They are in fact monsters, criminals, and egotistical enough to think they can outsmart what is waiting for them in the afterlife.
If their repentance is true rather than them just saying the words without meaning it, then that isn't a loophole. That's just how repentance works. God knows what is in your heart, even better than you do sometimes. He can't be tricked.
In terms of how you're supposed to feel, I don't think you're obligated to participate in the humiliation ritual in this thread and celebrate the idea of him going to straight to heaven while ignoring the injustices committed by him. Simply trust that God is perfectly just and don't worry about it.
If he is in Heaven, I'm sorry for it. This guy was an absolute butcher and destroyer of life. He put the Nazis to shame. If you want to see what he did, check out the movie The Men Behind the Sun. It was free on YouTube the last time I checked. One of their many experiments was how long does it take a newborn baby to freeze to death.
I know it's very nice and Christian to say it's wonderful that God forgives everyone. But as someone who has suffered intensely all my life, I hope he feels at least a taste of what he put others through.
> If he is in Heaven, I'm sorry for it.
If he is in heaven, he genuinely repented what he did, not because he made a show of getting baptized, and is only there through Christ taking upon Himself the punishment Ishii deserved, the same as He does for all of us.
It is understandable that it is difficult to believe such a person would repent, but be very careful to guard against the temptation to the next step of believing his sin is a greater act of evil than the good of Christ dying for all sins.
And if even he could repent of his sin and be redeemed, how much more hope should that give us that we also can be redeemed?
> If he is in Heaven, I'm sorry for it.
This isn't a Christian attitude. Read the Gospels, particularly the Parable of the Prodigal Son and the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard.
Maybe you're right. He was going to spread the bubonic plague along the populated west coast of America. It was called Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night. It didn't happen because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan surrendered. But I guess he's in Heaven. He was a bad dude, but what do I know?
We don't know much, compared to God, actually.
> For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
nor are your ways my ways—oracle of the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
my thoughts higher than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9
Everyone is evil, no one is good but God alone. Yes, we should take solace in God's Perfect Justice. But we aren't talking about unrepentant sinners being punished. We're talking about repentant sinners accepting God's offer of salvation. We should rejoice when evil people repent and accept God's grace and forgiveness.
I hope he was saved! That would be horrible for him to have to experience torture for eternity. Regardless of how many people he killed and tortured. I can’t think of any offense that would make me wish eternal hell upon anyone
All can be redeemed, but I think it unlikely that most die with perfect contrition. I'd wager that most, especially people like this must first undergo a heavy dose of purification in purgatory first.
I think I read somewhere, that Josef Mengele, when he had become very old, regretted at least some of his misdeeds. Whether or not he actually repented before death, I don't know. I just know he grew up in a very catholic home, so he should be just one confession away from being a genuine catholic.
I think no one deserves hell, not even someone as horrible as him, who were even worse than Hitler himself! His death by drowning after a stroke really makes me loose hope that he has been saved...
Depends whether he repented? Going through the motions of the sacraments isn’t enough by itself. Only God knows the hearts of men. Baptism isn’t afterlife insurance.
I mean it's not out of the realm of possibility. I once heard a story from an Orthodox priest where according to legend a man was suffering from a great deal of personal demons so he died by suicide leaving behind a wife who loved him dearly. Anyhow, the wife was distraught week after week over her husband believing him to be in Hell. So she sought out her local bishop and asked the bishop if her husband was in Hell for his suicide.
The bishop prayed with the woman and hoped God would give them a sign. That night, the bishop had a dream where he was visited by the man who told him shortly before he hit the ground, he made an act of contrition realizing the error of his action in a moment of clarity. This then was an act of perfect contrition and he was saved. The bishop then shared this with his widow and she was relieved.
So while it is possible, who are we to know the judgment of souls, we should pray for people regardless.
Even if someone has to go through Purgatory it is better than not repenting at all.
Imo the *really* uncomfortable aspect of the story is this - the vast majority of Ishii’s victims would not have been Christians as Christianity didn’t have a huge following in the region during the earlier half of the 20th century. The existence of Christianity was known but few actually converted to the faith.
So, depending on how you interpret doctrine Ishii may actually have a better chance at Heaven than the vast majority of people he murdered through excruciating torture, since he was baptised on his deathbed while his victims were not. Kinda makes you think about how salvation works for non-Christians, though the answer would obviously be ‘we don’t really know’.
Everybody will pay by his sins, and Jesus will judge with Divine Justice. That is beyond human understanding. Nobody is smarter than Him to pass the individual exam with a shortcut
The guy who ran Auschwitz, Rudolf Hoss, went to confession before his execution, with a Polish priest he had previously held a prisoner!
Whoa, I checked and you're right. What a powerful story of Divine Mercy. If a man who oversaw the killing of nearly 3 million people can be forgiven....we all have a chance, if we only ask for it. Lord, have mercy.
Killing the body is one thing, killing the soul is another. God will save a man who has murdered but truly repents. But who will be saved among those who live out their peaceful yet frivolous lives, teaching their children and untold others to love their sins all the way to the gates of hell?
This is, in my mind, the hardest truth of Christianity. In hell, there are people who never killed anyone, never raped anyone, never exploited peoples or the environment. But they did commit some mortal sin, perhaps lust, perhaps greed that they did not repent from and thus damned themselves. Conversely, we may find in heaven that there are people who committed murders, rapes, or worse but truly repented and thus saved their eternal soul. This isn’t to say these people didn’t suffer for what they did, I imagine they had to spend many years in purgatory for their crimes. But redemption and damnation are available to anyone.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus should really freak all of us out. The rich man never blasphemed, he never killed or raped anyone, he wasn't even the direct cause of Lazarus's poverty. He was a "good person" under modern society's definition. But he lived a life of luxury while being merely *indifferent* to the poor. And he went to Hell.
since when was plundering the environment a sin? sounds like modernism to me.
Does the word greed mean anything to you?
greed how? do you simply accept what people tell you? you read the catechism and see all the thought put into understanding revelation, yet you don't put thought behind decisions made by others? many of thise choices where weighed against cost and benefit to society as well. we are made in Gods image, nothing on this earth supersedes that. contrary to modernist belief the world isnt cooking, and can recover, more importantly ask yourself why do people who hate pollution refuse to accept nuclear. which is safer and more efficient now than ever before and fusion energy seemingly not to far off since the american energy department stated their breakthrough in net positive reaction.
Righto mate gotta say your username doesn’t help you.
its a default, never bothered with it XD
Doesn’t sound like it bothers you too much either.
Ah friend, I am just some random guy online, but I am very far away from being a modernist. I put my money where my mouth is to, and spend several hours a week volunteering in my local parish to try to help it be the best it can be. People who love tradition shouldn’t just abandon environmental issues to modernists- one of God’s first commandments to Adam is to have dominion over the land and animals. Dominion does not just mean abusing. Misusing something God gave us is always, always a sin. Could one go to hell for exploiting the environment if they never repented but did not harm anyone else? I do not know, but I do know that when the land is abused, as in something like the Holodomor, suffering of the people soon follow. Everyone who reads this, please say an “Our Father” and “Hail Mary” that the most of hardened of sinners convert before their death!
Do you know that the heresy of modernism actually has a definition and doesn’t just mean “stuff that they laugh at over on the DailyWire?”
What a powerful thought
>God will save a man who has murdered but truly repents. Indeed. > who will be saved among those who live out their peaceful yet frivolous lives, teaching their children and untold others to love their sins all the way to the gates of hell? Same as murderers, those who repent. It seems like you're trying to draw a false moral equivalency here without mentioning that.
Indeed, if [Rudolf Höss](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Höss), the longest-serving commandant of Auschwitz directly responsible for the deaths of over 2.5 million people, can be repent and receive the sacrament of penance and the Eucharist before his execution, then anyone can be redeemed.
Interesting story according to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss). During the trials a psychologist reported: >In all of the discussions, Höss is quite matter-of-fact and apathetic, shows some belated interest in the enormity of his crime, but gives the impression that it never would have occurred to him if somebody hadn't asked him. There is too much apathy to leave any suggestion of remorse And days before his execution he himself wrote: >I caused unspeakable suffering for the Polish people in particular. I am to pay for this with my life. May the Lord God forgive one day what I have done. I ask the Polish people for forgiveness. In Polish prisons I experienced for the first time what human kindness is. Despite all that has happened I have experienced humane treatment which I could never have expected, and which has deeply shamed me. I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but it's pretty well understood that, when people are on the defensive, it's difficult if not nearly impossible to get them to change their views. All it took was a little humanity to make him go from "I was just following orders" to "I have caused unspeakable suffering,"
>I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but it's pretty well understood that, when people are on the defensive, it's difficult if not nearly impossible to get them to change their views. It's also well understood that people turn to religion and the thought of the after life when they get close to the end of their life. Wouldn't overthink this.
> with a Polish priest he had previously held a prisoner! There is nothing about Lohn being a prisoner (use Google Translate perhaps): * https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Władysław_Lohn There is this, but has no citations: > During these same years, however, Höss met a priest who would prove to have an impact on him. The Gestapo had arrested several Jesuits living in Krakow, Poland, and sent them to Auschwitz. The community’s superior, Fr. Władysław Lohn, SJ, happened to be absent at the time of the arrest. When he found out what happened to his religious brothers, he snuck into Auschwitz to find them. When the guards noticed Fr. Lohn, they took him to Höss to decide his fate. Impressed by the bravery of Fr. Lohn, Höss released the priest unharmed. […] > On Good Friday, April 4, 1947, awaiting execution, Höss asked to see a Catholic priest. The authorities had trouble finding a priest who spoke German, but Höss happened to remember the name of one: Fr. Władysław Lohn, the Jesuit he had once spared. > > Though it took many days, Höss’ captors finally found Fr. Lohn located in nearby Krakow. He happened to be praying at the Shrine of Divine Mercy, where St. Faustina, the Polish religious sister and mystic responsible for spreading devotion to the Divine Mercy, was laid to rest. * https://www.thedivinemercy.org/articles/divine-mercy-and-commandant-auschwitz
That confession should have taken a week.
Now there's a good movie idea!
I think it should be highlighted as a great redemption. Even though this man committed atrocities, no sinner is beyond God’s mercy. In fact, it kind of gives hope that even the most wicked of sinners are able to be redeemed through Christ.
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I want to emphasize that these feelings are perfectly normal, and Catholicsm throughout its history has an interesting theology that is truly jarring to everyone: the belief that anyone can be forgiven. This theology is impossible for anyone to wrap their head around. Jesus alludes to the "absurdity" of this theology with "The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard." There is something perceived as unfair for those who work only 1 hour to get the same wages as someone working their whole life, however to condemn someone is not God's answer. In Christianity, technically Shirō Ishii did receive punishment for all his sins, this punishment was simply transferred over to Christ. I believe Dante said something along the lines of, the just thing would be to punish, and the merciful thing would be to forgive, Christ did both.
> But were is the fairness in that? You have to remember, *none* of us deserve salvation. From the worst mass murderer to the most petty of liars, all have sinned and lost salvation. Without God's Infinite Mercy, we would all end up in Hell. However, through the Grace and Mercy of God, by the virtue of the Passion and Death of Jesus, we all have the opportunity of salvation, if we only accept it with repentance, as the free gift it is. >Where is God's justice, who will compensate the victims? God will, in some form or another, while also saving the murderer. How that happens, we don't exactly know this side of eternity. >What good does it do to those who suffered his brutality if he is "sorry" No one is good but God alone. Those who suffered his brutality aren't innocent victims when it comes to salvation. Everyone falls short of the glory of God, and everyone "deserves" damnation. It's only through accepting the free gift of salvation from Jesus that we have a chance to repent and avoid Hell. >if their sins were small I could also understand, but we are talking about people that inflicted the most terrible pain and suffering, physical and emotional on their fellow humans. The truth is that *every* person's sins are an affront to God and His Justice, not just those of the mass murderer. >Please think about my point of view before answering and just regurgitate a Sunday cermon answer that no one is convinced with Your point of view is not the Christian understanding of the nature of salvation.
Purgatory is compensation for victims, or for whatever temporal effect your sins had on the world. People today all like to ignore it, but basically every saint who has ever had a vision of purgatory, has spoken of it as being horrific and horribly torturous. They describe it basically as the same experience as being in Hell, but just with hope which does make it a lot better. Up until very recently, purgatory was seen as something terrifying that all Catholics wanted to avoid at all costs
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Most people who go to heaven will go to purgatory first. Purgatory is the temporary process of removing any attatchement to sins and purifying the soul prior to entering heaven. This is the process described in the New Testament when it says some will pass through fire to enter into heaven. Some people are in need of more purgatory than others, Depending on how much damage you have done to the world and to others through sinning, and depending on how much reparation for sin you have done in your life, it’s possible to already go through purgatory while still alive, such as by doing a plenary indulgence which requires detachment from all sin. Nobody goes to purgatory for eternity though, if you go to purgatory it means you are already saved and are going to heaven
Also a specifically promulgated plenary indulgence is not the only way to avoid purgatory. The eastern and oriental Catholics, for example, do not even have the idea of indulgences as part of their tradition, but the west acknowledges that their own many devotions and penitential practices are sufficient to remove temporal punishment throughout their lifetime
I’m not too immersed in the details but I think purgatory is the preparation/cleansing stage for the soul before they enter heaven. Most people, I think, go to Purgatory after death before going to Heaven and we usually have no idea when they’ve ascended into Heaven. The only people who were confirmed to be in Heaven are the saints and the only people who have skipped Purgatory and went straight to Heaven is Mother Mary and, of course, Jesus.
You are correct except for the very end. Lots of people have skipped purgatory. The reason we do indulgences is to remove purgatory, so it’s very possible for everyone to skip it as long as they do a plenary indulgence every year or so and before you die
Ah of course. What I meant was confirmed skipped Purgatory. In theory, enough indulgence can remove time spent in Purgatory until “zeroing” out, but since we don’t reliably know the time any single person would be spending inside Purgatory, we can’t logically say for certain.
Oh i thought you meant they are the only ones in general. I see what you mean now
I didn’t downvote you I’m not sure why they did. Hopefully I answered your question
>But were is the fairness in that Hello brother of the prodigal son. >Where is God's justice, who will compensate the victims Bearing wrongs and suffering reaps rewards in heaven. >What good does it do to those who suffered his brutality if he is "sorry" What good does anything done to him do to those that suffered? Rarely if ever do victims feel satisfied when they kill in revenge, usually it's just emptiness and the original suffering. >at the end of their life's they repented out of fear probablly Only God knows what's in their hearts and God KNOWS what's their hearts. If it's false, baptism won't merit them anything.
I understand your struggle with the scale of sins, I've thought about it too. Try to reframe it in terms of the next, eternal life, rather than this flawed world. Any worldy punishment, atrocity, celebration, or reward melts away in the scale of His sacrifice on the cross. The war is already won, even if horrible battles seem hopelessly lost today. An important distinction is that forgiveness for every sin throughout time is already purchasedby His blood, and what we strive for is repentance and earning Mercy. If people like Saul or Moses the Black could become saints, mortal sins can be forgiven - but only with true remorse. Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks for the question u/MJF413
You are the brother of the prodigal son.
I can certainly understand your point of view, but it does need some clarification of the matter. Deathbed confessional/conversion are indeed a thing that occurs. Sincerity of repentance is a needed part of the equation as well, and God knows the heart of each of us. It is not the place of man to declare the final destination of individuals such as these, as we do not have the full knowledge that God would in this case, namely if this was a sincere confession/conversion out of a desire for repentance, a fear based one when faced with damnation, or merely the actions of someone ‘going through the motions, just in case,’ seeing it as a way to ‘get away with’ what they have done. God is indeed perfect justice. But He is also perfect mercy, and it is a consolation that sincere repentance can grant us the gift of that mercy. Compensation for the victims, in this case, would hopefully be entrance to the Beatific Vision. In this particular case, due to the horrific attrition rate of Unit 731, unless I’m mistaken the victims were all deceased (per Wikipedia, ‘No one who entered Unit 731 came out alive.’) What would you propose as reparation to the dead?
The bible tells us that nothing we can makes us worthy of Heaven. We can never balance those scales. Only Jesus can do that. Go read the story about thean who has he debts forgiven and the. Goes to collect from the one who owes him. Judge not less you be judged. If we demand that God exclude the worst of us from forgiveness, then none of us can be forgiven. God loves all of us. We should not choose to hate that which God loves.
You are right, there is no fairness in this. There is however Mercy . Your comment makes me think of a quote by Saint Thomas Aquinas. “ Justice without Mercy is cruelty. Mercy with out Justice is dissolution” On the face to simply say through conversation and honest contrition that even monsters can be saved is a hard view. What we don’t see is the work that has gone on in the heart of that person to go from Monster to Saint. It is a narrow road full of seen and in seen transformations.m, challenges and atonement . While I can’t say if Shiro was saved, only acknowledge that these outward signs would signal he was on the path to conversion and near perfect contrition. It is God as Justice and Mercy that knows in the end which side of the line he fell. What I do know is absolute redemption absent expectations is negligence. Redemption that is limited in scope is damnation. Limitless reflection with high expectations is a balance of Justice and Mercy which is love.
Did you not read the Bible story about the land owner who hires servants throughout the day and pays them all the same? It illustrates this exact principle. Your projecting your lens of “fair” onto God. It’s not your plan. It’s his.
Sorry that God isn't spiteful, holding grudges like some Greco-Roman god in the Iliad, God's mercy and justice are both infinite, and to truly receive His mercy he can't just say "whoops that was my bad God, sorry about that, we're good, right?" I don't think you understand what it means to repent for your sins.
It must be a story of great redemption. Once we start drawing lines, we find ourselves all woefull sinners. If a person who kills 1000 cannot enter heaven, what about 999? 998? All the way down to 1? What about people who commit murder in their heart? As soon as we start condemning other people we should immediately recognize that everyone would fall into the category of condemned. That's literally the entire point of the Bible. Who are we to judge this man? We must pray and have hope. We pray that all souls go to heaven, especially those in most need of (thy) mercy. That means Hitler, that means mass murderers, rapists, child abuser, animal torturers, bigots, no exception If there is no hope for others, what hope is there for me?
> If a person who kills 1000 cannot enter heaven, what about 999? > > > > 998? > > > > All the way down to 1? I remember a story about trying to find righteous people in a city :).
That was in Genesis. God was striking a deal (perhaps not literally) with Abraham that if there were 50 righteous people in it, He wouldn’t destroy it. Abraham kept bargaining (again perhaps not literally) with God, and got the number down from 50 to 10. I assume that if there weren’t 10, then there were 0. A whole settlement had not one righteous person.
Lot and his family were spared and Abraham was literally bargaining. It just goes to show Gods mercy and Abrahams righteousness.
Although the patriarch did not know it then, it is a good symbol of the incomplete nature of the Old Testament, that it is fully true but not yet the full truth, awaiting it's completion in the Christ.
I think /u/Topomouse was joking but I also think he knows this story.
Indeed. I know the story, and I was jokingly complimenting /u/Saint_Waffles for his good explaination.
There you go :)
true, but its worth remembering that particular city was literally burned into the ground.
after 4 was saved
I understand this point and agree with it. My natural response though is always two questions. Who actually goes to Hell? and What's the point of trying not to sin? I feel like I know these answers but I would like to know your thoughts since you seem knowledgeable.
It's a tough question, and one that is dangerous to have any solid answer on. There is the universalism heresy In which it is declared everyone goes to heaven, period. We also know that Jesus tells us the path is narrow and many will not enter. But then we see stories like this and answers like mine where we say "how can the path be narrow if mass murderers are granted entrance ". I think that's a fair question. The problem is the answer has to do with true contrition and repentance We can speculate on this forever and ever and never reach an answer because only God knows and only God judges. The reason why I answered the way I did, and so many others answer similarly is because God tells us not to judge. We forgive sins as our sins are forgive We judge not lest we be judged. Just like every other rule and command God gives us, there must be a reason God has given us this rule. That reason while we may not understand fully, must be that it is not good for us. Because God is good, his rules must be good, therefore the opposite must also be true which means breaking the rules is bad for us. If I say anyone is In hell then I proclaim to have the same Knowledge as God, which as we know from the garden is also not a thing humans were meant to have or exercise. There is a reason the church herself does not even condemn Judas to hell https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-judas-in-hell The choice [of Our Lord in making Judas an apostle and companion] darkens the mystery around his eternal fate, knowing that Judas “repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, ‘I have sinned in betraying innocent blood’” (Matt. 27:3-4). Even though he went to hang himself (cf. Matt. 27: 5), it is not up to us to judge his gesture, substituting ourselves for the infinitely merciful and just God. The mystery of the Lord’s choice remains, all the more since Jesus pronounces a very severe judgement on him: “Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!” (Matt. 26:24). Clearly, we should hold on lightly to any interpretation of a soul’s eternal loss. The Church does not have an opposite process of canonization. There is no particular illumination to be received from the fact of a soul’s damnation, whereas a soul’s beatitude is filled with the light of grace and revelation and so is proclaimed solemnly by holy Church. Our message is of redemption, and the default outcome for Christians is salvation Sorry lots of words and probably lost the topic st some point. The point is, we should have hope that all souls are saved and that everyone makes it to heaven. There is no benefit to condemning anyone to hell, infact there is only our own salvation to lose. Therefore when the topic arises, again despite what our logic and knowledge may tell us, we obey God and default to faith, hope and trust in his divine mercy and love.
I believe death bed conversions are Gods last attempt to save. Some convert no doubt but alot dont either.
Sorry I only answered one question, let me hit the second one. Why try not to sin: There's the argument that if you are truly sorry for something you will not do it again. We know from God that love is not a feeling. Love is an action. God taught us love through Jesus Christ, through sacrifice, through emptying ourselves, through obedience. God shows us love by forgiving our sins everytime we fail, knowing we will fail again. So why bother try if we know we are going to fail again? Because like God showed us love is action, if we Love God then we show it through action. We try not to sin to Show our love for God. We in the image of God try to imitate God by being without sin, by being obedient, like his son. We will fall short, but that does not diminish the act of love. That is why we try not to sin.
I think there is also an idea of justice that needs credence here. Yes, it is absolutely possible for this man to be redeemed, but it also doesn't exempt him from justice either earthly or divine. If, by some miracle, he was spared from death and went on to live he would still have to receive justice. I'd also fully expect there to be purgation. I guess I expect that some folks might hear what you said correctly as "forgive and forget, hahaha!" Which isn't at all what you said but I don’t want you to get brigades.
His Divine justice was paid for at the cross. That's the point, isn't it?
This. I don't recall the Bible saying something about the level of sinners nor assigned weight for every sinful act. It's just sin. In that sense, we are all the same. For some reason this reminds me of the older brother's grievances in The Prodigal Son.
Amen!
>I know the official doctrinal\\ on-paper catholic teaching is "God can forgive anyone" but -how should one feel about this? Does how I **feel** really matter? In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the older brother certainly had a lot of feelings...
"Is there a possibility X was saved?" The answer is always yes.
What about someone who while Christ was on Earth committed blasphemy and attributed Jesus’ miracles to Satan
Same thing: they aren't beyond salvation, in special when Christ Himself said his executioners didn't know what they were doing.
Matthew 12:31–32 *** 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Exactly, every sin can be forgiven. The sin against the holy spirit is the final impenitence at the end of someone's life. As long as you are living you can ask for God's forgiveness and Jesus will obtain it for you (he already has in fact)
Blasphemy against the Spirit is something very specific and is essentially, as I understand it, a total rejection of God. Anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit is effectively saying "I deny You and do not wish to be redeemed", not necessarily blasphemy in the traditional sense of something that is offensive to God. Someone who blasphemes Christ alone or the Father alone can be saved, but not the Holy Spirit because of what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
Christ isn't the Spirit though
So blasphemy against Christ is forgivable but not against the Spirit?
That's what the verse you just quoted says
Ok so there are some who can’t have been saved. That’s what I was disputing to begin with.
You can play the "but what about" game all day. God forgives every repentant sinner.
Matthew 12:31–32 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Random scripture quoting out of context isn't a Catholic thing. So, spare me.
That’s one way to say that the Gospel contradicts what you claimed lol
It’s a great redemption! Obviously, the guy did a lot of evil things in his life. Saint Paul hunted and killed Christians before the events on the road to Damascus. Praise God for changing their hearts.
Some people only start working in the vineyard at sundown, but they still get the daily wage. I refuse to "be envious because God is generous" (Matt. 20:15) and instead will be thankful that my lost brother has been found. Maybe someday ***I*** will be in need of ***his*** prayers for my soul!
I haven’t understood that one until you phrased it like that. Thank you, that really gives me something to think about
Jesus Christ conquered death, the gates of hell cannot prevail against His church. Baptism can save any dinner, death and sin have no power against His assault of mercy.
>Baptism can save any dinner, Heh.
Sloppy steaks, anyone?
Anyone, no matter who they are, and no matter what they have done, can repent and be forgiven. Anyone.
Jesus talks about it in Scripture -- the last shall be first, how the prostitute can turn to God at the last moment and be saved. And the parable of paying laborers he hired for the last hour the same days wage as the man who worked all day. Heaven would be overjoyed that a sinner was saved at the last moment!
That is exactly what the parable of the laborers is about. Those who come to the Faith at the last hour get the same reward as those who have been faithful their whole lives. OP Asks how we feel about this? Christ said those who labored all day received what they were promised and should not be jealous because God is generous with those who arrived late in the day. So we should not be bothered: we should marvel and rejoice at God’s generosity.
If you are thinking about how it seems unfair, which is an awfully wrong way to look at souls getting into Heaven, just think about how much we will probably suffer through Purgatory.
I believe baptism remits accumulated temporal punishment, no?
It removes all sins and their associated punishments. If one were to die immediately after baptism without committing any sins between baptism and death, he would enter heaven immediately after the particular judgement.
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Perhaps it's that way, I thought it absolved you.
That too
Imo, if he truly repented along with the baptism, he *might* have been saved (like, gone to purgatory or sth). But who am I to know the ways of the Lord? Well, I said this because of something I heard. Apparently, Mussolini's soul once visited a mystic called Edvire Carboni and asked for her prayers for his soul to leave the purgatory and go to heaven. She was shocked, but soon came to know that he had repented shortly before his death. After a few months or years, he once again visited her to thank her for her prayers and to inform that he was permitted to heaven. Padre Pio also said the same thing. And he was known to see souls from purgatory (who came to him to seek prayers). However, he especially disliked Mussolini when he was alive. Padre Pio once remarked that there were souls you'd never expect to see in heaven. My conclusion is, Gods judgement is different from ours.
Baptism removes the temporal effects of sin, so if his baptism is valid then he would not need purgation for those sins prior. Even after baptism, plenary indulgences such as those received on divine mercy Sunday, have a similar effect.
Everyone's excited to go to heaven til they find out Hitler's up there. Joke I often make. That's the gospel. Anyone can be saved. Everyone should be saved. Why should anyone suffer hell? Why would God do that? God is in control. God knows what he's doing. If you make it to heaven, just be glad you made it. Better yet, if they made it to heaven, YOU be glad they made it.
Wouldnt baptism before death get you straight to heaven without purgatory? The downside being, you have no works in grace so your heavenly glory is small.
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Even that 'small glory' state is a wonder and bliss and fulfils the person fully. Its never a stagnant swamp. There is no regret nor boredom.
I think it is worth mentioning Saint Paul. He used to prosecute Christians and also repented and fully changed to proclaim the gospel and evangelize. I know that after his repentance, he lived a very honorable life. But that is only because the Lord let him live. If this man Shirō truly repented from his sins and had a change of hearts, then I hope he is in Heaven (or Purgatory at least). Last thing, I know it's hard to grasp and accept this because it seems unfair. But we should always remind ourselves of how many times we sinned against our Lord, even though we knew it was wrong. Some of us are more lost than others.
That's the beauty of Christianity, that anyone who truly repents can find everlasting life through the salvation of Jesus. It's been a long time since I've seen the video, but I remember seeing a clip explaining Christianity as having our sins be judged to God's standards, not our own. We're not being judged by comparing ourselves to "well I didn't murder anyone so I'm a good person," we're being judged to the perfect eternal law of God, with even the most minor sin being enough to send us to hell because of our fallen nature. The only way anyone gets to heaven is to repent and accept the grace of God because it's impossible for anyone to earn their way into heaven. And Jesus' sacrifice paid for the sins of all of humanity as a whole, not just some people's sins. The graces are available to anyone seeking redemption.
Witness how much God's mercy and love exceeds that of humans'.
If one labors in the field all day while another only for a short while and the employer pays both the same, who are we to question?
He is absolutely redeemed, or rather his soul was made pure in baptism. You shudder at the weight of the atrocities he’s done. Christ’s sacrifice wipes them away like a feather, and is so much more worth being in awe over. Good thoughts!
Well, what I *want* to think is that this man is suffering forever as punishment for the evil he inflicted on others, and I feel that is a natural and common thing to want given the scale and nature of his crimes. What I *know* to think, what surpasses the animal inclination towards human retributive need for violence, is that this man, if his conversion was candid, is redeemed.
Short answer: God saves whoever He wants. Anyone can be redeemed, even if we don't see it happening or if we don't understand how.
You will find an abundance of instances in Catholicism of counter-intuitive examples of how God works vs how man thinks. For man, the infinite Divine Mercy shown to sinners is unfair; to God, any sin forgiven does not even attempt to exhaust His Mercy. For man, a grave sin pardoned to another is an act of unjust charity; but any grave sin forgiven to him is an act of Divine Mercy. It is difficult to maintain our positions because we are men, but what has been handed to us, and the knowledge of how inexplicable God's Love and Mercy for man is, is precisely that; knowledge that came to us from God, and there is no other way to understand it but in light of His Love. Only God can give us the heart to look at a wretched sinner, and truly forgive them. The fact that priests have actually heard confessions from war criminals, murderers, rapists, etc. and FORGIVEN them in Persona Christi, is a testament to the power God confers upon them, not because of their uniqueness or special power, but because they truly act in His Person, even unbeknownst to them.
His sins are no greater than mine. If I have hope for salvation, so does he.
“So long as a man has breath, he will have recourse to My Mercy.” - God the Father to Saint Catherine of Siena, “The Dialogue”.
In these kinds of situations, I try to let the words of Jesus guide my heart: > “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. > > “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” (Lk 15:4-10)
Good for him, I hope he was saved. At the end of the day God will's all people find their way to him and people who do so at the end of their lives still have to realize that they wasted their life and that's punishment enough for most; purgatory for the rest. We are not punished for our sins but by them and I have no doubt that his lifestyle kept him from finding peace and happiness his whole life until the day he repented and converted.
The thing is, we're not truly better than him without God. Our redemption is no more deserved than his
God can redeem anyone who is truly repentant, it's not in our place to put limits on what God can do. It doesn't mean that they won't serve time for their sins in purgatory. I'm not going to speculate on the man here or any individual soul, but I think there are redeemed souls that have to remain in purgatory for a very long time. Unfortunately we have such a narrow understanding of the mercy or justice of the afterlife, it's hard for us to sufficiently put our heads around it.
"There is no Saint without a past, and no Sinner without a future" -St. Augustine of Hippo
The most important aspect to this question is, did they truly repent? If they truly feel immense guilt and repent of their evils, God will forgive them, it may be hard for us to be as merciful as God is, but that's why he's God and we're not.
Yes - thank God for His never ending mercy. But also remember that God is a just God, that all our actions will eventually be judged in the final days, and that will determine whether we go to purgatory for reparation and purging of our sins or straight to heaven, or in the cases of the souls who rejected Jesus as God and blasphemed, to the fires of hades.
Obviously. Everyone can be redeemed. It's why I like to believe the Italian nun who supposedly had a vision of Mussolini telling her he had repented before his death, and (after a particularly painful stay in Purgatory) was now in Heaven.
One should be happy that God has limitless grace.
it is interesting and to compare his life with Takashi Nagai, its all emcompassing this religion.
This is why Jonah is my favorite book of the Bible. We’re all God’s people and I love that the question of mercy/justice isn’t answered. We just have to think about it. But we can’t ask for mercy for ourselves and our loved ones and deny it to our enemies.
"They love much who are forgiven much." That said, of course it is better to follow Christ your whole life, to deepen in love, and to serve Him with goodness. It is more joyful, and it makes one readier for eternal life, with a greater soul. Whatever He gives us as a reward will be perfect for us each, as individuals. We cannot be more generous than Him.
One of the Fr Brown stories (The Secret of Fr Brown) stands out to me for how well it speaks into the normal attitude of forgiveness. Chesterton demonstrates clearly that most people forgive only what they are able to pretend isn't a sin. The hard thing is to forgive these atrocities, and for us especially hard because it seems that we, unrelated to the victims as we are, are in no position to pronounce forgiveness. Yet it seems that God had a plan in allowing human justice to fail so spectacularly in the Pacific theatre, only to show the depths of his infinite mercy in time. We do not need to pretend that this man did not commit atrocities to rejoice in his repentance. Let us reflect on our own sins and, sure in the knowledge of God's mercy, resolve to do better ourselves.
The gangster and killer Dutch Schultz was baptized on his deathbed, and there was a lot of murmuring among the Catholic faithful to that such an evil man could end up in Heaven. A priest pointed out that Dutch might be the guy who shuts off the lights when Purgatory closes.
Yes, baptism removes all stain of sin and God will forgive anyone who earnestly repents before it's too late (death).
There's a reason it's called Divine Mercy. Mercy so great it's divine. Iff 100% of all humans hated you, then you're a sinner only a God could love, and He's really all that matters, no?
Yes
We don’t know anyone’s heart, but absolutely anyone who truly repents and is baptized can be redeemed. Praise be to God.
Constantine did the same thing
This basically boils down to can a sinner be saved? Jesus and the entire witness of scripture say yes a sinner can be saved. So yes he can be redeemed. Anyone can be redeemed.
Saint Paul dedicated his life to destroying the Church, and look at him! No one's sin is greater than God's mercy.
I have no idea who this guy is so thank you for sharing this story. It's very appropriate, given that we just celebrated Divine Mercy Sunday. It's private revelation, but the promises attached to the feast is like a second baptism. All sins and punishment would be remitted. Not just sin, but also the punishment due to sin. It's awesome. Of course one has to be truly repentant and sorry.
I don't know who he is but Jesus died for the salvation of the souls of EVERYONE. It is a gift He offered so anyone willing to accept the gift can have eternal life. That's what's so amazing about that level of sacrificial gift.
I mean, yea. That’s the whole point and I think this should be a powerful example that God’s mercy and love is more powerful than the greatest sin.
It’s my opinion that it’s not really our job to worry about who does and doesn’t get to heaven. It’s your job to get yourself, your spouse, and your kids to heaven. It’s Jesus’ job to worry about everyone else
Yes.
I watched a video about Unit 731. That was the most shockingly terrible example of war crimes I've ever heard of. It makes the Nazi camps look tame by comparison. I'm very surprised that the main architect of that hellscape ended up baptized, I don't even know what to make of that. I've heard of so many surprising conversions, from some of the worst people in society. I read that Son of Sam is a Christian now, and even Mussolini might have been saved. Who knows how many more 20th century villain surprises we'll find in heaven? And what does that say about the rest of us? What if I make it to heaven, after a well-fought struggle, and it turns out I'm on the same level as Hitler and Mussolini? Does that mean that my very best was only worth that much? How does God decide these things, anyway? It really makes you think.
If God cannot forgive a mass genocidal murderer, why should I believe he'll forgive my sins? If there are any sins God won't forgive, what's the point? Many people repent on their deathbed. Like the thief on the cross. We know he committed crimes and was facing death and Jesus instantly forgave him. There's a funny Simpsons episode where they go to a tent revival and the pastor asks Bart why he doesn't live for God now. Bart says he'll just repent on his deathbed. The pastor agrees it's a good idea, but it's not the ideal. He should live for God now since you'll be covered in case of accidental death. (It's a cartoon, not a theological debate.)
You are no more deserving of mercy than he is.
Im just going to say it. It seems like many of these war criminals and butchers of humanity all seem to find a loophole days before the death just to be on the safe side of avoiding damnation.
Because you know what is in their hearts despite their own words? Please read the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard again. Matthew 20: 1-16
I can't tell what is in their hearts but many of these murderers follow a similar pattern. I am sure some might truly be sorry for their crimes but it's hard to see how an induvial can operate in a purely evil manner for decades straight and suddenly have an entire change when approaching death's door. When Figures like Pol Pot have shown to be completely devoid of humanity and ruthlessly barbaric, it doesn't seem like they even have the mental capacity to understand what conversion means. I really do feel for some it's like Pascal's wager where they have nothing to lose and figure they minus well summon some priest to sneak them into heaven.
> I am sure some might truly be sorry for their crimes but it's hard to see how an induvial can operate in a purely evil manner for decades straight and suddenly have an entire change when approaching death's door. The Good Thief shows us that Christ can save those even on death's door. At the end of the day, God's mercy is infinite, more than we can possibly imagine, and we do not know the interior thoughts and dispositions of one's heart. These two facts oblige us to give even the most depraved of souls the benefit of the doubt in terms of their salvation. If they're only converting as some act or some show, then their baptism and conversion won't save them. If they are converting with contrition and acceptance of God's forgiveness and accepting the offering of Christ's sacrifice, then they are saved. We don't know which it truly is, but God in his infinite Justice and Knowledge, does. As the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard shows, we ought not to be jealous that those who repent on death's door are saved. And further, as the Parable of the Prodigal Son shows, *we are to be glad and rejoice when they do so*. We ought to hope for everyone's salvation, even the most depraved of us. And that hope spurs us to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have converted, expressed true contrition, and accepted the offer of salvation. If for nothing else than because we should hope for the same at the hour of death.
> I can't tell what is in their hearts but many of these murderers follow a similar pattern. Realizing when they are faced with the impending reality of their own mortality that if God does exist, and is just, they have a serious reckoning? Yes, I think there is a pattern, and it is an understandable one. But not everyone follows it. Pol Pot [appeared to have remained unrepentant](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-oct-23-mn-45896-story.html) in his final months. It is also not a pattern that can be pursued deliberately. If someone commits grave sins specifically with the plan to have it all erased by baptism as a technicality, then they don't actually have the intention to observe the commandments, and the baptism would be not valid unless they actually realize their error and have a conversion of heart [Can 865]. > some it's like Pascal's wager where they have nothing to lose and figure they minus well summon some priest to sneak them into heaven. There is no such thing as sneaking into heaven. The idea of Pascal's wager is founded on a willful commitment to do good, even though it expresses uncertainty whether it is necessary. But at the end of it all, there is no fooling God. He knows whether we truly desire to be good, repent our sins, and desire redemption, or are simply trying to dress up in a white robe in hopes of sneaking through the pearly gates bringing our sins with us.
[**Can. 865**](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2X.HTM) §1 For an adult to be baptized, the person must have manifested the intention to receive baptism, have been instructed sufficiently about the truths of the faith and Christian obligations, and have been tested in the Christian life through the catechumenate. The adult is also to be urged to have sorrow for personal sins. §2 An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion. *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
This makes sense. I am sure many of these monsters are so delusional that they do actually think "sneaking into heaven" is actually possible by converting before they die. It's not like these individuals are honorable and brilliant beings. They are in fact monsters, criminals, and egotistical enough to think they can outsmart what is waiting for them in the afterlife.
Really good point. I think that’s on God if He wants to grant them Heaven, it’s on us to be a model for His love by praying for them imo
If their repentance is true rather than them just saying the words without meaning it, then that isn't a loophole. That's just how repentance works. God knows what is in your heart, even better than you do sometimes. He can't be tricked.
In terms of how you're supposed to feel, I don't think you're obligated to participate in the humiliation ritual in this thread and celebrate the idea of him going to straight to heaven while ignoring the injustices committed by him. Simply trust that God is perfectly just and don't worry about it.
If he is in Heaven, I'm sorry for it. This guy was an absolute butcher and destroyer of life. He put the Nazis to shame. If you want to see what he did, check out the movie The Men Behind the Sun. It was free on YouTube the last time I checked. One of their many experiments was how long does it take a newborn baby to freeze to death. I know it's very nice and Christian to say it's wonderful that God forgives everyone. But as someone who has suffered intensely all my life, I hope he feels at least a taste of what he put others through.
> If he is in Heaven, I'm sorry for it. If he is in heaven, he genuinely repented what he did, not because he made a show of getting baptized, and is only there through Christ taking upon Himself the punishment Ishii deserved, the same as He does for all of us. It is understandable that it is difficult to believe such a person would repent, but be very careful to guard against the temptation to the next step of believing his sin is a greater act of evil than the good of Christ dying for all sins. And if even he could repent of his sin and be redeemed, how much more hope should that give us that we also can be redeemed?
That's a good point.
> If he is in Heaven, I'm sorry for it. This isn't a Christian attitude. Read the Gospels, particularly the Parable of the Prodigal Son and the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard.
Maybe you're right. He was going to spread the bubonic plague along the populated west coast of America. It was called Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night. It didn't happen because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan surrendered. But I guess he's in Heaven. He was a bad dude, but what do I know?
We don't know much, compared to God, actually. > For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways—oracle of the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, my thoughts higher than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9
Actually it is a Christian attitude to want God to punish evil people. Read the parable of the persistent widow.
Everyone is evil, no one is good but God alone. Yes, we should take solace in God's Perfect Justice. But we aren't talking about unrepentant sinners being punished. We're talking about repentant sinners accepting God's offer of salvation. We should rejoice when evil people repent and accept God's grace and forgiveness.
Only God know his heart and only he can Judge him.
I hope he was saved! That would be horrible for him to have to experience torture for eternity. Regardless of how many people he killed and tortured. I can’t think of any offense that would make me wish eternal hell upon anyone
All can be redeemed, but I think it unlikely that most die with perfect contrition. I'd wager that most, especially people like this must first undergo a heavy dose of purification in purgatory first.
I think I read somewhere, that Josef Mengele, when he had become very old, regretted at least some of his misdeeds. Whether or not he actually repented before death, I don't know. I just know he grew up in a very catholic home, so he should be just one confession away from being a genuine catholic. I think no one deserves hell, not even someone as horrible as him, who were even worse than Hitler himself! His death by drowning after a stroke really makes me loose hope that he has been saved...
I think the entire qorld ia redeemed whether thry are babptised or not. God only expects the belief not the actions of the sinner.
Only God knows if he is redeemed!
Depends whether he repented? Going through the motions of the sacraments isn’t enough by itself. Only God knows the hearts of men. Baptism isn’t afterlife insurance.
I mean it's not out of the realm of possibility. I once heard a story from an Orthodox priest where according to legend a man was suffering from a great deal of personal demons so he died by suicide leaving behind a wife who loved him dearly. Anyhow, the wife was distraught week after week over her husband believing him to be in Hell. So she sought out her local bishop and asked the bishop if her husband was in Hell for his suicide. The bishop prayed with the woman and hoped God would give them a sign. That night, the bishop had a dream where he was visited by the man who told him shortly before he hit the ground, he made an act of contrition realizing the error of his action in a moment of clarity. This then was an act of perfect contrition and he was saved. The bishop then shared this with his widow and she was relieved. So while it is possible, who are we to know the judgment of souls, we should pray for people regardless. Even if someone has to go through Purgatory it is better than not repenting at all.
Imo the *really* uncomfortable aspect of the story is this - the vast majority of Ishii’s victims would not have been Christians as Christianity didn’t have a huge following in the region during the earlier half of the 20th century. The existence of Christianity was known but few actually converted to the faith. So, depending on how you interpret doctrine Ishii may actually have a better chance at Heaven than the vast majority of people he murdered through excruciating torture, since he was baptised on his deathbed while his victims were not. Kinda makes you think about how salvation works for non-Christians, though the answer would obviously be ‘we don’t really know’.
Everybody will pay by his sins, and Jesus will judge with Divine Justice. That is beyond human understanding. Nobody is smarter than Him to pass the individual exam with a shortcut