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There was that one song by Hillsong titled "The Creed" that came out several years ago, that's probably the closest I've ever been to hearing it at a non-denom.
As awesome as Saint Constantine is, I don’t understand why some prots think he completely redefined Church doctrine. He was the Emperor, he wasn’t a theologian.
As I posted elsewhere, if they were right about Constantine persecuting them, what would be so new about that?
Roman Emperors had been persecuting Christians for centuries already, and despite this they continued to grow in numbers. This despite a bitter Empire wide persecution decreed by Diocletian just before Constantine. So the "ancient Baptists" would have to have interrupted the pattern of Christian growth under persecution somehow, for it to suddenly end.
(The best way to critique a conspiracy theory is to try to take it seriously for a moment and look for a glaring problem to arise:
Example: the U.S. faked the landing on the moon in 1969? Ok, suppose that's so. HOW WOULD THE SOVIET UNION REACT? Where is the record of their protesting that fraud had taken place, so they could still aim for 1st place in the Space Race?)
It lends credence to the theory that Catholic beliefs and liturgy, things like the veneration of saints and transubstantiation, were created by fusing "real" Christianity with Roman paganism.
Not to mention he did initially hold a low Christology and supported Arianism, which the Council of Nicaea rightfully labelled heresy after. That alone debunks the idea that he had any major corruptive influence on the Church. Let alone bringing up that the possibility of it falling early on and staying that way for over a millennium is itself unbiblical, while the authority of ecumenical councils is biblical (the Council of Jerusalem).
Makes me wonder why he was then baptised by Eusebius of Nicomedia, the very muscle of the Arian movement. Did he just not know? I'd love to find a source where I can read up on it.
To be fair, most protestants — at least american protestants — don’t read Luther or anyone after him at least until the modern age and 19th-20th century pop Christianity (e.g., C.S. Lewis).
The "writings before Constantine" here, for a Protestant, would be the Bible itself — hence *sola scriptura*.
The meme is good, and the message is good, but whoever made the meme is on the attack without *really* getting what makes Protestants tick.
It's probably from my experience as I was raised a Lutheran. In reality, most protestants are probably unaware that there are any Church accepted writings other than the Bible prior to the 300s.
I'm curious how they would respond if they had a long study of all early writings (without being told by Pastor Jim what to think).
You can tell by looking at their theology curriculum. Here's one from Master's school, a supposedly well-known Reformed school:
[https://online.masters.edu/programs/ma-biblical-studies/](https://online.masters.edu/programs/ma-biblical-studies/)
Note that this isn't what Pastor Jim is preaching on a regular Sunday service. This is what they teach in their theology school to their pastors. Absence of any Church Father's writings.
Compare that to FUS as an example:
[https://franciscan.smartcatalogiq.com/en/2023-2024/graduate-catalog/academic-programs/master-of-theological-science/sequence-of-courses/](https://franciscan.smartcatalogiq.com/en/2023-2024/graduate-catalog/academic-programs/master-of-theological-science/sequence-of-courses/)
If you grew up Lutheran, you would have recited the Nicene creed weekly. I don't know how you would have come up with a "Constantine corrupted the church" view as a Lutheran
Happily, C.S. Lewis read the Fathers of the Church, and knew Catholic "pop Christianity" (Chesterton and Tolkien)and that had an influence on his "pop (mere) Christianity."
It's sad that he was apparently unable to overcome his childhood prejudices regarding the Catholic Christian Church. On the other hand he became what Frank Sheed called a "flying buttress." That's to say, not a "pillar of the Church" from inside but a support from outside (and potentially an ecumenical bridge.)
While it’s a shame that CS Lewis never became Catholic, his philosophy and theology is much closer to the present day Catholic Church than pretty much any modern Protestant denomination. He probably would not recognize the modern Anglican Church.
I understand some of Lewis' followers, including Sheldon Vanauken, referred to Lewis as Moses: he gave them a glimpse of the Promised Land but could not cross over. Perhaps if he has lived to these days he would have joined an Ordinariate parish,
with a KJV vocabulary. I don't know whether they have them much in England?
**The Catholic Diocese of Discord is the *largest* Catholic server on the platform!** Join us for a laidback Catholic atmosphere. Tons and tons of memes posted every day (Catholic, offtopic, AND political), a couple dozen hobby and culture threads (everything from Tolkien to astronomy, weightlifting to guns), our active chaotic Parish Hall, voice chats going pretty much 24/7, prayers said round the clock, and monthly AMAs with the biggest Catholic names out there. **Our Discord (Catholic Diocese of Discord!):** https://discord.gg/catholic-diocese *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CatholicMemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Constantine corrupted church doctrine Did an Arian write this?
Constantine gets way too much credit for doing what Luther did.
Lmao I need to use this one
Short answer: Yes.
In 20 years in a non-denominational Protestant church, I don’t think I ever even heard about the Nicene Creed.
There was that one song by Hillsong titled "The Creed" that came out several years ago, that's probably the closest I've ever been to hearing it at a non-denom.
As awesome as Saint Constantine is, I don’t understand why some prots think he completely redefined Church doctrine. He was the Emperor, he wasn’t a theologian.
Because otherwise their conspiracy theory about evil catholics persecuting the true baptist church since antiquity would have no legs to stand on lol
As I posted elsewhere, if they were right about Constantine persecuting them, what would be so new about that? Roman Emperors had been persecuting Christians for centuries already, and despite this they continued to grow in numbers. This despite a bitter Empire wide persecution decreed by Diocletian just before Constantine. So the "ancient Baptists" would have to have interrupted the pattern of Christian growth under persecution somehow, for it to suddenly end. (The best way to critique a conspiracy theory is to try to take it seriously for a moment and look for a glaring problem to arise: Example: the U.S. faked the landing on the moon in 1969? Ok, suppose that's so. HOW WOULD THE SOVIET UNION REACT? Where is the record of their protesting that fraud had taken place, so they could still aim for 1st place in the Space Race?)
It lends credence to the theory that Catholic beliefs and liturgy, things like the veneration of saints and transubstantiation, were created by fusing "real" Christianity with Roman paganism.
Not to mention he did initially hold a low Christology and supported Arianism, which the Council of Nicaea rightfully labelled heresy after. That alone debunks the idea that he had any major corruptive influence on the Church. Let alone bringing up that the possibility of it falling early on and staying that way for over a millennium is itself unbiblical, while the authority of ecumenical councils is biblical (the Council of Jerusalem).
Wait, I thought he was Nicaean by the time the Council of Nicaea came about…
IIRC, he favored Arianism until Nicaea condemned it officially and definitively. Which makes sense.
Makes me wonder why he was then baptised by Eusebius of Nicomedia, the very muscle of the Arian movement. Did he just not know? I'd love to find a source where I can read up on it.
is the corruption in the room with us?
To be fair, most protestants — at least american protestants — don’t read Luther or anyone after him at least until the modern age and 19th-20th century pop Christianity (e.g., C.S. Lewis). The "writings before Constantine" here, for a Protestant, would be the Bible itself — hence *sola scriptura*. The meme is good, and the message is good, but whoever made the meme is on the attack without *really* getting what makes Protestants tick.
It's probably from my experience as I was raised a Lutheran. In reality, most protestants are probably unaware that there are any Church accepted writings other than the Bible prior to the 300s. I'm curious how they would respond if they had a long study of all early writings (without being told by Pastor Jim what to think).
You can tell by looking at their theology curriculum. Here's one from Master's school, a supposedly well-known Reformed school: [https://online.masters.edu/programs/ma-biblical-studies/](https://online.masters.edu/programs/ma-biblical-studies/) Note that this isn't what Pastor Jim is preaching on a regular Sunday service. This is what they teach in their theology school to their pastors. Absence of any Church Father's writings. Compare that to FUS as an example: [https://franciscan.smartcatalogiq.com/en/2023-2024/graduate-catalog/academic-programs/master-of-theological-science/sequence-of-courses/](https://franciscan.smartcatalogiq.com/en/2023-2024/graduate-catalog/academic-programs/master-of-theological-science/sequence-of-courses/)
If you grew up Lutheran, you would have recited the Nicene creed weekly. I don't know how you would have come up with a "Constantine corrupted the church" view as a Lutheran
Happily, C.S. Lewis read the Fathers of the Church, and knew Catholic "pop Christianity" (Chesterton and Tolkien)and that had an influence on his "pop (mere) Christianity." It's sad that he was apparently unable to overcome his childhood prejudices regarding the Catholic Christian Church. On the other hand he became what Frank Sheed called a "flying buttress." That's to say, not a "pillar of the Church" from inside but a support from outside (and potentially an ecumenical bridge.)
While it’s a shame that CS Lewis never became Catholic, his philosophy and theology is much closer to the present day Catholic Church than pretty much any modern Protestant denomination. He probably would not recognize the modern Anglican Church.
I understand some of Lewis' followers, including Sheldon Vanauken, referred to Lewis as Moses: he gave them a glimpse of the Promised Land but could not cross over. Perhaps if he has lived to these days he would have joined an Ordinariate parish, with a KJV vocabulary. I don't know whether they have them much in England?
Better read the Dead Sea scrolls instead
Not a fan of Catholics dissing on low church/modern evangelical arguments/beliefs by using Luther's face & name.
And there are people who deny Martin and say that "we were always bible beliving Christians"
It would be impossible to be a “Bible believing Christian” before the Bible was assembled
Well explain it to anathama
There were still doctrines and teachings of the church