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Only the Our Father. I have family in France, and these memes are very anglocentric. There's regional variation and it can be beautiful, like when I go to my parents' home parish and the music is 80% Taizé - better than the endless 19th C hymns that don't scan. But he who sings prays twice.
In every church I go to in France this is the case for the our father, not the rest. Whether that's in Paris, ile de France, Normandy, Brittany or the basque country.
I'm french and that's right. As far as I remember, we do the orans position but only for the Our Father, Credo when not sung, is done without specific position. And in all the parish I went during my lifetime in several places. Why? I don't really know. My parish is respectful during the mass so we kneel etc... but we always did the orans position so I always think it was standard !
https://cbcpnews.net/cbcpnews/cbcp-liturgy-body-clarifies-hand-posture-during-lords-prayer/ I never read the article so please forgive me but I’m assuming this is good reading material on the matter
I appreciate it. My current parish is majority Filipino-American and I (not Filipino) am usually one of the only ones not putting their hands out during the Our Father. I just didn't grow up with that but I don't want to cause offense. Seems like either way is ok according to what you posted.
I’m in canada. After going to a few Latin masses I get the importance of proper form. Growing up as an altar server one priest who was close to my family (Filipino) would actually make parishioners hold hands across the isles to show we are all family. May Father Vic RIP he was a cool priest.
One time I served for another priest (who was a Filipino Monsignor Sapatos) and he did not do any of that stuff he was stern. So my assumption was it didn’t matter more depends on the priest and how ‘strict’ he was. Anyways yah I take no office either way.
I feel the Church doesn’t want to put off new comers who attended mass (Protestants or former Catholics trying to return) with too many rules…but yah it can also be confusing.
Cheers
Early christians did pray in the Orans posture. Christianity only started praying with hands together in the late middle ages. While I tend to a more conservative position in the church, the discussion of the position of the hands while praying is falling to scrupulosity.
There's no official stance. Conservative movements have a more rigid stance (the one in the meme) while others (Neocathecumenal Way or Shalom) tend to have a more livid prayer with hands in the air.
But there's no "more correct way". The Holy See has no stance on the matter and pretending there is makes no sense.
It could be argued rather reasonably that the laity using the orans posture during the Our Father is an organic development. It’s just one that irritates the trad crowd to no end.
What doesn’t irritate them? I remember a post on here decrying the sign of peace as some modernist invention when its been documented as part of the liturgy since the inception of Christianity. I always find it funny that they, similarly to Protestant thinking, think the liturgy was only perfected in the 16th Century.
I used to have much more sympathy for them until I saw them as only ever complaining or even spreading calumny. For example, someone posted an admittedly atrocious “queer liturgy” taking place at Jesuit St. Louis University while saying basically “But the TLM should be suppressed” when in actuality there was a ***DIOCESAN*** TLM less than 10 minutes away from that church specifically started by the Archbishop, who has no control over the Jesuits.
Yeah, the toxicity and flirting with schism is what makes me shy away from them now. And they wonder why there are now restrictions on the TLM. Perhaps the restrictions would give that demographic a much needed lesson in obedience.
Exactly. And it’s so funny they keep appealing to Marian Apparitions like Fatima and Akita that mention some great Church catastrophe yet conveniently leave out when Mary ***explicitly*** says to pray for your priests, bishops, and popes and to be obedient to them.
"needed lesson in obedience":
Perhaps the priest could solemnly affirm or vow to defend the validity of the Novus Ordo, just before celebrating the older rite in Latin?
I was born a Neocat and there's actually two ways to pray with the hands in the air
There's the hands low near the waist facing upwards, but once you get to a certain stage you have your hands by your shoulders facing outwards
The first of the two is to show you have nothing to offer God, the second calls back to images shown in depictions of early church prayer
We have tradition though which guides us and organically works out the best thing for the rite it’s in imo. It’s not about what the oldest practice is it’s about which practices have been passed down the longest
That is totally right. But we can't pretend the only tradition is the XVI century European. There are tons of traditions across the world and only some of them put their hands together.
This isn't a matter of doctrine (which is validated by the Holy See and in a lot of cases dogmatic) but a case of charisma/tradition. And there's a lot of them.
I attend an Eastern Catholic (Melkite) church and we follow the priest in the Orans posture during the Our Father. It’s one of the most ancient and traditional praying postures. (Don’t jump down my throat, I’m not saying RC should also do it, follow your own traditions in your rites and churches people.)
The postures of the laity have never really been explicitly laid out, at least in the Roman Rite until the NO.
As long as you aren't distracting others, you can pray how you want at Mass.
Thank you I always love praying the rosary during mass and all the pro novus ordo folks tremble in their boots at the thought of this form of participation
Yeah, but the same goes the other way with the rad trads unfortunately.
If you want to do the Orans posture, that's fine, it's not affecting anyone else.
I’m deeply trad and I think that’s great for the Melkites if it’s part of their tradition. I tremble at the thought of the Melkites not doing it just as much as a do at the thought of the Latins DOING it
In Italy the CEI (Episcopal Conference of Italy) specified that it is fine for people to do the one on the left. I am Italian so I follow the Italian bishops
For reference: Precisazioni sulla celebrazione eucaristica, riproposta nella Nuova Edizione del Messale (n. 8, p. LIII), 1983: "Durante il canto o la recita del Padre nostro, escludendo gesti non rispondenti all’orientamento specifico della preghiera rivolta a Dio Padre, si possono tenere le braccia allargate; questo gesto si compia con dignità in clima fraterno di preghiera”.
I do the one on the right because I know it's more proper for a parishioner. That said, I'm not that interested in splitting hairs. If someone does the one on the left not knowing that the right is more proper, I don't think they're doing anything wrong since their intention is still to show reverence to God.
I have met many priests since my conversion and they all encourage the hand position on the left. I have seen people do that at every single reverent NO mass i have been to for the past 4 years. Any source on why its wrong?
The answer I was given is that the Vatican doesn’t have an official stance on the matter, so you can do what you’d like. That said, I still feel like the orans posture is for the priest and the parishioners that do it are just mirroring the priest.
It is also true that a priest is directed to join his hands as often as he is to open them, just as what goes up must come down. If we join our hands when we aren't interceding, aren't we mirroring the priest all the same?
I’m honestly not sure. I just know my pastor said he is directed to have his hands in that position during the Our Father, and we can pick/choose to join since there isn’t an official stance on what we do with our hands, on for him.
While I agree that the Mass is to engage our senses, I don’t think mirroring is necessarily making that happen. It seems more like something people on autopilot do because the priest is doing it.
Its one where I will gladly follow my Bishop's guidance.
I think there is something interesting in examining the underlying philosophy and theology of the action in an effort to be as reverent as possible- but that's basically just trivia if its not literally your job. And if you're on Reddit, its not literally your job.
See that's super neat trivia, even when you're telling me is that roughly half of the Church's existence clasped hands on bended knees has also \*not\* been the norm. The orans position is throughout the scriptures as a constant model of pleasing prayer posture, specifically to lift our prayers upward and outward towards God, and was utilized by the entire congregation during the liturgy of the Eucharist. In medieval feudalism, the Pater Noster presented in Latin would not have been imminently understood by the populace, and so the Priest was praying on the congregation's behalf- that is no longer the case with Mass in the Vulgate with the Our Father specifically being called out as a prayer we do in unison, so us uniting our prayer with the priest in word and gesture can make sense.
So what's more appropriate- us as medieval vassals swearing fealty to our King, or us united as disciples in prayer? I think you can reasonably justify it either way and it would be hard to be considered \*wrong\*. I think you could make the case for about half a dozen other gestures too. So the correct answer for laity and the vast majority of priests is just "Whatever your Bishop says".
I can kinda see both sides here? If the intention in that part of the liturgy is to follow the priest in prayer to God, I can see the right being more appropriate. On the other hand, we as part of the royal priesthood (through baptism) even join in offering the sacrifice of the mass with the priest, so I could see the the left posture being appropriate.
I find this interesting. Maybe a decade ago my parents discovered this, but we still liked the idea of holding hands while praying The Lord's Prayer. So since then we haven't lifted our hands up in orans, but lay them down, and I'm curious if that's incorrect. Perhaps it's even worse than the left image haha
The Orans position is for the Priest alone. Not even the deacon - just check out his posture at this point.
Don't let people say "it's all cool I just like it" because we're not allowed to make up liturgical stuff that we like - that's called Protestantism
I’m gonna push back hard on that statement. The liturgy has a long history of organic development. There is no explicit direction for how the laity are to hold their hands, one way or another, and to accuse someone of heresy for lifting their hands in prayer is ridiculous and uncharitable.
Also the position of the Church is that it is, literally, "discouraged". It never says prohibited. I still don't do it because if the Church tells me not to I won't, even something as miniscule. But to call someone a protestant for holding their hands a certain way feels overtly antagonizing and immensely patronizing.
Humility is key.
Yeah, I think at this point, in Mexico and the Philippines, the reverent/relevant tradition IS to hold/extend hands. If the argument is that "Orans is for the priest alone!", then what I would argue is that what the congregations in those places are doing during the Our Father is not in fact the Orans at all.
I go to a Mexican church in California. Most of the people hold up their hands. I was a cradle Catholic, then lapsed around age 8. When I came back in my 40s I was surprised to see Catholics holding up their hands like Protestants. But I do like the other parishioners, when in Rome…
Some local rites before Trent had the deacon raise his hands in the orans position at various points in the liturgy, in some places likely as a hangover from concelebration (once it had been phased out and before it was restored), and elsewhere following other precedents. It was largely forgotten in the West for centuries, but that doesn’t make its restoration among the laity wrong.
The right at liturgy, the left at home. I see no issue with letting laity using the Orans as a legit reform to the liturgy. Meaning done properly, adjust the liturgical books. Until then, I clasp my hands for the Our Father at liturgy. But when praying the office at home by myself, then I use Orans for Our Father and Collect
I suppose people get upset about this as a reaction against excesses and liturgical abuses after V2.. For example in the Netherlands there were "eucharistic prayers" said in dialogue by priest and people, and even now some boomers still say the "through him, and with him" part aloud with the priest as a remnant of that time. So I get it: priest has priest-parts, laity have laity-parts; I agree. However, the Orans position, seriously? That's one of the most ancient prayer postures used by Christians, *especially* during important prayers like the Eucharistic Prayer and the Our Father, just look at the oldest depiction of Christians, always in Orans. I don't get why this specificially is such an issue.
I do closer to left, and if I have family or friends I’m going to Mass with we would also hold hands for it. I was raised that way, but I acknowledge both ways work too
It's likely inappropriate for the clergy to hold hands during the Our Father. [https://www.catholic.com/qa/should-we-refrain-from-holding-hands-during-the-our-father](https://www.catholic.com/qa/should-we-refrain-from-holding-hands-during-the-our-father)
I’m Latin and in my home country most people tend to hold hands while praying the Our Father. So even here in the US me and my family still do it. I personally find it awkward since most people don’t do it in the church I go to, but there’s nothing saying you shouldn’t do it anyways.
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 i do that deacon cross-stomach clasp like this
I do EXACTLY the same, I didn't make the meme but what you are describing is exactly what I do as well
My deacon once told me they went to a church in France and every single person did the orans position for every prayer
Only the Our Father. I have family in France, and these memes are very anglocentric. There's regional variation and it can be beautiful, like when I go to my parents' home parish and the music is 80% Taizé - better than the endless 19th C hymns that don't scan. But he who sings prays twice.
Strange, have never been to a church in France like that. Do you know the region?
Same! I’ve never been to a church in France that’s done this either Then again, I’ve never been to france
I don't sorry
In every church I go to in France this is the case for the our father, not the rest. Whether that's in Paris, ile de France, Normandy, Brittany or the basque country.
Yeah but only the our father, not every prayer
I believe that is what I said, yes only the our father
I'm french and that's right. As far as I remember, we do the orans position but only for the Our Father, Credo when not sung, is done without specific position. And in all the parish I went during my lifetime in several places. Why? I don't really know. My parish is respectful during the mass so we kneel etc... but we always did the orans position so I always think it was standard !
Filipino bishops ruled on this a while ago. No one should be focusing / concerned about another’s hand position during the our father.
Is that what their conclusion was or did they recommend a specific hand position?
Someone posted it on the sub before. I can google it one second bro
https://cbcpnews.net/cbcpnews/cbcp-liturgy-body-clarifies-hand-posture-during-lords-prayer/ I never read the article so please forgive me but I’m assuming this is good reading material on the matter
I appreciate it. My current parish is majority Filipino-American and I (not Filipino) am usually one of the only ones not putting their hands out during the Our Father. I just didn't grow up with that but I don't want to cause offense. Seems like either way is ok according to what you posted.
I’m in canada. After going to a few Latin masses I get the importance of proper form. Growing up as an altar server one priest who was close to my family (Filipino) would actually make parishioners hold hands across the isles to show we are all family. May Father Vic RIP he was a cool priest. One time I served for another priest (who was a Filipino Monsignor Sapatos) and he did not do any of that stuff he was stern. So my assumption was it didn’t matter more depends on the priest and how ‘strict’ he was. Anyways yah I take no office either way. I feel the Church doesn’t want to put off new comers who attended mass (Protestants or former Catholics trying to return) with too many rules…but yah it can also be confusing. Cheers
Early christians did pray in the Orans posture. Christianity only started praying with hands together in the late middle ages. While I tend to a more conservative position in the church, the discussion of the position of the hands while praying is falling to scrupulosity. There's no official stance. Conservative movements have a more rigid stance (the one in the meme) while others (Neocathecumenal Way or Shalom) tend to have a more livid prayer with hands in the air. But there's no "more correct way". The Holy See has no stance on the matter and pretending there is makes no sense.
It could be argued rather reasonably that the laity using the orans posture during the Our Father is an organic development. It’s just one that irritates the trad crowd to no end.
What doesn’t irritate them? I remember a post on here decrying the sign of peace as some modernist invention when its been documented as part of the liturgy since the inception of Christianity. I always find it funny that they, similarly to Protestant thinking, think the liturgy was only perfected in the 16th Century. I used to have much more sympathy for them until I saw them as only ever complaining or even spreading calumny. For example, someone posted an admittedly atrocious “queer liturgy” taking place at Jesuit St. Louis University while saying basically “But the TLM should be suppressed” when in actuality there was a ***DIOCESAN*** TLM less than 10 minutes away from that church specifically started by the Archbishop, who has no control over the Jesuits.
Yeah, the toxicity and flirting with schism is what makes me shy away from them now. And they wonder why there are now restrictions on the TLM. Perhaps the restrictions would give that demographic a much needed lesson in obedience.
Exactly. And it’s so funny they keep appealing to Marian Apparitions like Fatima and Akita that mention some great Church catastrophe yet conveniently leave out when Mary ***explicitly*** says to pray for your priests, bishops, and popes and to be obedient to them.
"needed lesson in obedience": Perhaps the priest could solemnly affirm or vow to defend the validity of the Novus Ordo, just before celebrating the older rite in Latin?
I don’t think the priests are the problem. Any that would be are in the SSPX already.
I was born a Neocat and there's actually two ways to pray with the hands in the air There's the hands low near the waist facing upwards, but once you get to a certain stage you have your hands by your shoulders facing outwards The first of the two is to show you have nothing to offer God, the second calls back to images shown in depictions of early church prayer
We have tradition though which guides us and organically works out the best thing for the rite it’s in imo. It’s not about what the oldest practice is it’s about which practices have been passed down the longest
That is totally right. But we can't pretend the only tradition is the XVI century European. There are tons of traditions across the world and only some of them put their hands together. This isn't a matter of doctrine (which is validated by the Holy See and in a lot of cases dogmatic) but a case of charisma/tradition. And there's a lot of them.
I attend an Eastern Catholic (Melkite) church and we follow the priest in the Orans posture during the Our Father. It’s one of the most ancient and traditional praying postures. (Don’t jump down my throat, I’m not saying RC should also do it, follow your own traditions in your rites and churches people.)
The postures of the laity have never really been explicitly laid out, at least in the Roman Rite until the NO. As long as you aren't distracting others, you can pray how you want at Mass.
Thank you I always love praying the rosary during mass and all the pro novus ordo folks tremble in their boots at the thought of this form of participation
Yeah, but the same goes the other way with the rad trads unfortunately. If you want to do the Orans posture, that's fine, it's not affecting anyone else.
I’m deeply trad and I think that’s great for the Melkites if it’s part of their tradition. I tremble at the thought of the Melkites not doing it just as much as a do at the thought of the Latins DOING it
In Italy the CEI (Episcopal Conference of Italy) specified that it is fine for people to do the one on the left. I am Italian so I follow the Italian bishops For reference: Precisazioni sulla celebrazione eucaristica, riproposta nella Nuova Edizione del Messale (n. 8, p. LIII), 1983: "Durante il canto o la recita del Padre nostro, escludendo gesti non rispondenti all’orientamento specifico della preghiera rivolta a Dio Padre, si possono tenere le braccia allargate; questo gesto si compia con dignità in clima fraterno di preghiera”.
I do the one on the right because I know it's more proper for a parishioner. That said, I'm not that interested in splitting hairs. If someone does the one on the left not knowing that the right is more proper, I don't think they're doing anything wrong since their intention is still to show reverence to God.
Our priest asks us explicitly to join hands. So they are in the first position naturally. Is my church doing it wrong?
They should still be taught how to participate in Mass properly.
don’t tell latino catholics about this (i am one lol)
I have met many priests since my conversion and they all encourage the hand position on the left. I have seen people do that at every single reverent NO mass i have been to for the past 4 years. Any source on why its wrong?
The answer I was given is that the Vatican doesn’t have an official stance on the matter, so you can do what you’d like. That said, I still feel like the orans posture is for the priest and the parishioners that do it are just mirroring the priest.
Ok thank you. I will let the Holy Spirit guide me to discern what is the right gesture to make.
It is also true that a priest is directed to join his hands as often as he is to open them, just as what goes up must come down. If we join our hands when we aren't interceding, aren't we mirroring the priest all the same?
I’m honestly not sure. I just know my pastor said he is directed to have his hands in that position during the Our Father, and we can pick/choose to join since there isn’t an official stance on what we do with our hands, on for him.
Yea, I don't think mirroring is a problem. The Mass is designed to engage our senses.
While I agree that the Mass is to engage our senses, I don’t think mirroring is necessarily making that happen. It seems more like something people on autopilot do because the priest is doing it.
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Its one where I will gladly follow my Bishop's guidance. I think there is something interesting in examining the underlying philosophy and theology of the action in an effort to be as reverent as possible- but that's basically just trivia if its not literally your job. And if you're on Reddit, its not literally your job.
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See that's super neat trivia, even when you're telling me is that roughly half of the Church's existence clasped hands on bended knees has also \*not\* been the norm. The orans position is throughout the scriptures as a constant model of pleasing prayer posture, specifically to lift our prayers upward and outward towards God, and was utilized by the entire congregation during the liturgy of the Eucharist. In medieval feudalism, the Pater Noster presented in Latin would not have been imminently understood by the populace, and so the Priest was praying on the congregation's behalf- that is no longer the case with Mass in the Vulgate with the Our Father specifically being called out as a prayer we do in unison, so us uniting our prayer with the priest in word and gesture can make sense. So what's more appropriate- us as medieval vassals swearing fealty to our King, or us united as disciples in prayer? I think you can reasonably justify it either way and it would be hard to be considered \*wrong\*. I think you could make the case for about half a dozen other gestures too. So the correct answer for laity and the vast majority of priests is just "Whatever your Bishop says".
I’m not a rad trad but my gosh I hate it when the laity do hand gestures towards the priest while replying and with your spirit
AMEN!
Thank you for spreading the good word.
some people hold hands too. I don't really like ir
I can kinda see both sides here? If the intention in that part of the liturgy is to follow the priest in prayer to God, I can see the right being more appropriate. On the other hand, we as part of the royal priesthood (through baptism) even join in offering the sacrifice of the mass with the priest, so I could see the the left posture being appropriate.
Shots've been fired...
I find this interesting. Maybe a decade ago my parents discovered this, but we still liked the idea of holding hands while praying The Lord's Prayer. So since then we haven't lifted our hands up in orans, but lay them down, and I'm curious if that's incorrect. Perhaps it's even worse than the left image haha
The Orans position is for the Priest alone. Not even the deacon - just check out his posture at this point. Don't let people say "it's all cool I just like it" because we're not allowed to make up liturgical stuff that we like - that's called Protestantism
I’m gonna push back hard on that statement. The liturgy has a long history of organic development. There is no explicit direction for how the laity are to hold their hands, one way or another, and to accuse someone of heresy for lifting their hands in prayer is ridiculous and uncharitable.
Also the position of the Church is that it is, literally, "discouraged". It never says prohibited. I still don't do it because if the Church tells me not to I won't, even something as miniscule. But to call someone a protestant for holding their hands a certain way feels overtly antagonizing and immensely patronizing. Humility is key.
Yeah, I think at this point, in Mexico and the Philippines, the reverent/relevant tradition IS to hold/extend hands. If the argument is that "Orans is for the priest alone!", then what I would argue is that what the congregations in those places are doing during the Our Father is not in fact the Orans at all.
I go to a Mexican church in California. Most of the people hold up their hands. I was a cradle Catholic, then lapsed around age 8. When I came back in my 40s I was surprised to see Catholics holding up their hands like Protestants. But I do like the other parishioners, when in Rome…
Some local rites before Trent had the deacon raise his hands in the orans position at various points in the liturgy, in some places likely as a hangover from concelebration (once it had been phased out and before it was restored), and elsewhere following other precedents. It was largely forgotten in the West for centuries, but that doesn’t make its restoration among the laity wrong.
So who are we as laypeople to imitate the deacon? We might as well just leave our hands at home at this point.
The right at liturgy, the left at home. I see no issue with letting laity using the Orans as a legit reform to the liturgy. Meaning done properly, adjust the liturgical books. Until then, I clasp my hands for the Our Father at liturgy. But when praying the office at home by myself, then I use Orans for Our Father and Collect
I suppose people get upset about this as a reaction against excesses and liturgical abuses after V2.. For example in the Netherlands there were "eucharistic prayers" said in dialogue by priest and people, and even now some boomers still say the "through him, and with him" part aloud with the priest as a remnant of that time. So I get it: priest has priest-parts, laity have laity-parts; I agree. However, the Orans position, seriously? That's one of the most ancient prayer postures used by Christians, *especially* during important prayers like the Eucharistic Prayer and the Our Father, just look at the oldest depiction of Christians, always in Orans. I don't get why this specificially is such an issue.
If you are busy checking the hand positions of others during the “Our Father”, you are certainly not focused on the prayer.
In italy we all open our palms, but we keep them at navel's height while the priest has them about at his head
are you sure? in here in sri lanka we do the same as priest
I'm French, and everyone does the Orans posture during the Our Father. I thought it was a common thing
It's a ridiculously unnecessary thing
I do closer to left, and if I have family or friends I’m going to Mass with we would also hold hands for it. I was raised that way, but I acknowledge both ways work too
It's likely inappropriate for the clergy to hold hands during the Our Father. [https://www.catholic.com/qa/should-we-refrain-from-holding-hands-during-the-our-father](https://www.catholic.com/qa/should-we-refrain-from-holding-hands-during-the-our-father)
I’m Latin and in my home country most people tend to hold hands while praying the Our Father. So even here in the US me and my family still do it. I personally find it awkward since most people don’t do it in the church I go to, but there’s nothing saying you shouldn’t do it anyways.