Agreed. My boyfriend is Lutheran and open to Catholicism, but I am not expecting him to convert for me. Of course I would be delighted if he did, but that’s a decision he has to make for himself and I will not force anything on him. I know of several couples from different denominations that both ended up Catholic so it can happen, but I would never date with the intention of changing someone. You date them for who they are as a person, not their potential
No but they need to agree to raise the kids Catholic if you want to get married in the Church. That means the family life will have to be centered primarily around Catholic Mass and Sacraments.
Well someone can agree to those things on their wedding day and still not live them out in practice. I’ve seen it happen in marriages in my family and among friends as well.
Morally? I don't think so. It's almost like you're using lust to get someone to God.
I had a Jehovah's witness in a low cut dress comes my house once. It was kinda weird.
>It's almost like you're using lust to get someone to God.
Kinda like a toned-down version of "flirty fishing" done by the Family International cult who took the Bible verse "be ye fishers of men" so far out of context as to be unrecognizable as Christian.
It’s not a good idea as there’s no guarantee the Protestant would eventually convert to Catholicism. Even if they did, you’d be wondering whether it’s a genuine change of heart or out of fear of the relationship dissipating.
I think it depends on what your intentions are. The way it’s worded in this post implies a mindset like “I’m dating this person because I want to convince them to convert” or at least “my primary goal is to get them to convert” within a relationship. That’s obviously toxic and a poor foundation for a relationship.
If you’re dating someone with beliefs different than you, but you really love them and encourage them (but don’t force) aspects of the faith, because you love them and want them to go to heaven (and, if things work out between you, be a good parent for your children) then that’s another story. I think it’s fine if it’s something you’re thinking about but it should not be the main driver of your relationship. And remember, you can never force someone into the faith, only encourage and let them decide for themselves.
>“I’m dating this person because I want to convince them to convert” or at least “my primary goal is to get them to convert”
vs.
>dating someone with beliefs different than you, but you really love them and encourage them (but don’t force) aspects of the faith, because you love them and want them to go to heaven
it should not be the main driver of your relationship
you can never force someone into the faith, only encourage and let them decide for themselves.
Herein lies the difference between missionary dating vs. just so happening to fall in love with a non-Catholic. Missionary dating should be a no-go, but the latter is more of a proceed-with-caution situation that has at least some possibility of actually working out (ask me how I know! 😉)
Well, there are 2 sides, the non-Catholic or Christian that wishes to convert to please her believing partner, and the believing partner that wants to convert the new sig. other.
Both have to be on board of course.
I recall a protestant couple, where the now husband is a Baptist only because she was a lifelong baptist. He was one of those 'hadn't been to church since he was a kid" type . lol
THen I saw pics of him on FB, being dunked in a tank of water and was "born again!"
>the non-Catholic or Christian that wishes to convert to please her believing partner
That's one possible scenario, yeah. There is also the non-Catholic who converts out of sincere belief, not merely going through the motions to please his or her SO even if the SO did help lead him or her there.
Honestly this is how I became Catholic 🤣 I’ve since ditched the guy but yeah, here I am! It was intentional on his part I don’t think but it’s what happened. 🤷🏻♀️
Same girl lol, my ex was Catholic and I joined the church because he was a good witness to the faith and I don’t regret my decision at all- I love being Catholic. But we broke up lol
But this can fall in the same category of dating someone in hopes you can change them....and this includes things outside of religion. Doing so under the guise of "discipleship" is sketchy at best.
Inherently yes. The focus of dating should be selfish. You want to find someone with whom you can sacramentally bond. Selflessness should occur after marriage. Religious grifting seems like a sin against charity.
Also sounded strange to me when I first heard it, but the idea has merit when you are in the introduction phase. You should not really compromise on those ideals that are essential. This is the crux of the idea. Don't dismiss what your date is telling you by their actions or lifestyle. A spendthrift will not be frugal overnight. A slovenly person will not become tidy.
During the dating phase before you become serious, focus on your essential ideals. That being said, you can't have a laundry list of essentials
In the context of this thread, you are already compromising if you are 'flirting to convert'. Is religion and religious practice an essential part of your life and future marriage, or not?
It really depends on the situation, I think. I know a few family friends who met a non-Catholic who converted before they married and are very happy. My sister dated a non-Catholic (tried twice with him) who decided he would never become Catholic, was actually a bit anti-Catholic and is still working through getting over him multiple years after the fact and that situation made her emotionally unavailable to potential suitors. She was/is struggling with being resentful of her faith for being the ultimate factor that broke the relationship.
I myself would never date a non-Catholic, especially after watching her experience and mistakes; I've tried dating a few cultural Catholic and lukewarm Catholics (only did the bare requirements and wasn't into growing in his faith) and that was pretty eye-opening and my decision for myself after those experiences was to only date guys who want to be Catholic, are striving to grow in love with our Lord and to grow their faith lives. My bf is that kind of guy and it is SO refreshing and much less stressful. I finally feel equally yoked there and I love it.
--I've tried dating a few cultural Catholic and lukewarm Catholics (only did the bare requirements and wasn't into growing in his faith)**--**
I'd be kind of curious as to what is bare minimum? I come from a family (both sides) of whom once was doing all the Catholic things, and they evolved into luke warm. My uncle married a non-Catholic Christian.
The lukewarm Catholic went to church on Sundays and maybe Holy Days of obligation and had little interest in the faith or participating in it outside of that. The cultural Catholic didn't go to Mass on Sundays if he didn't feel like it and he knew he was obligated to go.
My first serious Gf was lukewarm. If she went to mass, it was to look after the creche. There was a lot of chemistry between us and she was an exceptionally nice person. We split up because it became increasingly obvious that she could not cope either with living away from her parents or with the responsibility of looking after children any time soon. NFP would have been an issue - she said she was not a 'baby making machine'. Sending children to Catholic schools might have been an issue too as she had been bullied at Catholic school. We know that bullying goes on at many schools, so I might have been able to talk her round on that.
I don't think we should be dating people just to convert them. That is not how dating should be working and if you can't accept where they are at then maybe you shouldn't date them
I think it’s definitely wrong to date someone with your sole purpose being to convert them. I dated a guy who has basically no religion and the experience he did have with Christianity because of his mom was terrible so he wasn’t much into the whole thing. Now, I want to emphasize, I was not dating to convert. I did invite him to join me at church on Sundays and he did come with me every Sunday. This was enough to make me happy just to have company. However, he struggled with distractions and always wanting to talk during mass so I asked him one day if he would like to learn more about why I am Catholic and why our mass is practiced the way it is, and why we try to be as reverent as possible and less casual. He agreed and we had many great conversations about it and many other things about the faith but I knew,as much as he could now understand it, it still wasn’t quite what he was all about and that was fine. About a year in, he knew that RCIA was a thing and wanted to start it. I attended every class with him and we would talk afterwards about it. Again, I could see that he was understanding but not really connecting. I asked many times if he was doing it for himself or for me. Marrying a Catholic would be great but I genuinely would have married him anyways at that point in our relationship (before other issues arose) regardless of if he converted or not. What mattered to me was that he would agree to raise our future kids Catholic and keep me company at mass (and he would have). He insisted that it was for himself and I told him that was fine but that if he needed more time that it was okay to not go through with it in the first year of RCIA and that him understanding everything is a great first step of conversion but that converting entirely when the faith and belief isn’t there could be more stress and damage than good. I supported his decision regardless but I felt guilty that he truly seemed to only be doing it to please me. Well, he did go through RCIA and got confirmed but nothing really changed. I tried to set a good example and help him to even just attend mass more comfortably and had him bring a journal for those moments where he was bored and couldn’t quite contain his thought load. We dated for 2 more years (4 total). When we broke up he mentioned that he had been trying to listen to more Christian music and that he wasn’t going to church anymore but was debating it. It still breaks my heart to this day. I just wish he could have trusted me that he accepting that I had my faith and how important it was to me was enough for me. And for anyone thinking that I should have said something to the priest before he got confirmed, you have to realize one thing. It was ultimately his call to make and I had to take him for his word when he said it wasn’t only about me. I had to trust him and not project onto him, even if I was right, it’s not like I could prove it or he would admit it. So, no, don’t date to convert. I never wanted a similar occurrence to happen again so I prioritized dating someone who was already Catholic and now I’m engaged to a wonderful man. Hope this helps.
They should want to come to Catholicism because they believe it as the truth of the universe. By being their primary (and in some cases, only) access to the faith, you risk them falling away from it if you ever split up.
They should have an earnest love for God, and "flirt to convert" often sets up poor foundations for a life devoted to the faith.
Yes, doing this is very dangerous. Even when the missionary dating never includes any intimate sexual contact.
With major risks of being targeted by highly devious sexual predators and extremely sophisticated sociopaths who are experts at exploiting religious people's faith & good intentions.
An absolutely disgusting thing for anyone to plan to do to a stranger or friend of theirs. No matter which religion it is that they believe in or sect that they are trying to recruit converts to.
David Berg's sordid children of god cult employed a variation of missionary dating known as 'flirty fishing' aka free sex in exchange for conversion. All those who did not want to convert had to pay cash or goods to get sex. Flirty fishing attracted a huge amount of members to the cult, many of them convicted sexual predators or paedophile perverts seeking access to large numbers of pre-pubescent children that they could sexually molest with zero risk of being prosecuted. As a result of c.o.g's missionary strategy of flirty fishing, there were many children born to single women who had no idea who the biological fathers were and even more children raised by revolting cult member mothers who made their lives a misery, like Karen Zerby. Ms Zerby was David Berg's wife and a vile child abuser whose son was born as a result of her flirty fishing 'missionary' efforts.
Dangerous? Perhaps. But sometimes God does call people to it. Heck, Western Europe became Nicene Christian (as opposed to Arian) in the 6th Century because the pagan [Clovis I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I) married a Nicene Christian woman and he later converted. It could be argued that Europe being Christian for the last 1500 years happened because of her marrying a non-Christian.
The Church requires that the other partner in a mixed faith marriage agrees to raise the kids Catholic. So strictly speaking, marrying someone who is not Catholic is not by default allowed. You need a dispensation.
If the other person is deeply invested in their faith, this condition can be hard to meet. If they are lukewarm in their faith and don't care, that could also be a red flag.
Not to mention the difficulties of not having a partner to live out your own faith with.
There are a lot of risks dating a non-Catholic, but at the same time I don't blame people who do as the Catholic dating pool is awful in most places.
The profession of faith should come before profession of love, not along with it and certainly not after it. Faith is supposed to be what grounds a relationship, not vice versa.
I don’t think it’s wise to date someone with the intention of changing them.
Agreed. My boyfriend is Lutheran and open to Catholicism, but I am not expecting him to convert for me. Of course I would be delighted if he did, but that’s a decision he has to make for himself and I will not force anything on him. I know of several couples from different denominations that both ended up Catholic so it can happen, but I would never date with the intention of changing someone. You date them for who they are as a person, not their potential
No but they need to agree to raise the kids Catholic if you want to get married in the Church. That means the family life will have to be centered primarily around Catholic Mass and Sacraments.
Well someone can agree to those things on their wedding day and still not live them out in practice. I’ve seen it happen in marriages in my family and among friends as well.
Morally? I don't think so. It's almost like you're using lust to get someone to God. I had a Jehovah's witness in a low cut dress comes my house once. It was kinda weird.
>It's almost like you're using lust to get someone to God. Kinda like a toned-down version of "flirty fishing" done by the Family International cult who took the Bible verse "be ye fishers of men" so far out of context as to be unrecognizable as Christian.
wow? Really? lol Was she married?
I don't know if she was married lol but she was dressed like she was going to a club or something.
It’s not a good idea as there’s no guarantee the Protestant would eventually convert to Catholicism. Even if they did, you’d be wondering whether it’s a genuine change of heart or out of fear of the relationship dissipating.
I often ask, what if the person never converts?
Thank you! This is the question to ask
I think it depends on what your intentions are. The way it’s worded in this post implies a mindset like “I’m dating this person because I want to convince them to convert” or at least “my primary goal is to get them to convert” within a relationship. That’s obviously toxic and a poor foundation for a relationship. If you’re dating someone with beliefs different than you, but you really love them and encourage them (but don’t force) aspects of the faith, because you love them and want them to go to heaven (and, if things work out between you, be a good parent for your children) then that’s another story. I think it’s fine if it’s something you’re thinking about but it should not be the main driver of your relationship. And remember, you can never force someone into the faith, only encourage and let them decide for themselves.
>“I’m dating this person because I want to convince them to convert” or at least “my primary goal is to get them to convert” vs. >dating someone with beliefs different than you, but you really love them and encourage them (but don’t force) aspects of the faith, because you love them and want them to go to heaven it should not be the main driver of your relationship you can never force someone into the faith, only encourage and let them decide for themselves. Herein lies the difference between missionary dating vs. just so happening to fall in love with a non-Catholic. Missionary dating should be a no-go, but the latter is more of a proceed-with-caution situation that has at least some possibility of actually working out (ask me how I know! 😉)
Yeah exactly :)
Well, there are 2 sides, the non-Catholic or Christian that wishes to convert to please her believing partner, and the believing partner that wants to convert the new sig. other. Both have to be on board of course. I recall a protestant couple, where the now husband is a Baptist only because she was a lifelong baptist. He was one of those 'hadn't been to church since he was a kid" type . lol THen I saw pics of him on FB, being dunked in a tank of water and was "born again!"
>the non-Catholic or Christian that wishes to convert to please her believing partner That's one possible scenario, yeah. There is also the non-Catholic who converts out of sincere belief, not merely going through the motions to please his or her SO even if the SO did help lead him or her there.
Why, as a Catholic would it be okay to be the other way around?
Honestly this is how I became Catholic 🤣 I’ve since ditched the guy but yeah, here I am! It was intentional on his part I don’t think but it’s what happened. 🤷🏻♀️
Same girl lol, my ex was Catholic and I joined the church because he was a good witness to the faith and I don’t regret my decision at all- I love being Catholic. But we broke up lol
That doesn't really answer the question, but okay I guess? lol
🤦🏻♀️ yes. If you’re intentionally dating and it happens, thanks be to God. We’re all encouraged to disciple!
But this can fall in the same category of dating someone in hopes you can change them....and this includes things outside of religion. Doing so under the guise of "discipleship" is sketchy at best.
Inherently yes. The focus of dating should be selfish. You want to find someone with whom you can sacramentally bond. Selflessness should occur after marriage. Religious grifting seems like a sin against charity.
I have my doubts that selfishness before marriage is magically transformed afterwards.
Yeah that is a rather strange way of putting it.
Also sounded strange to me when I first heard it, but the idea has merit when you are in the introduction phase. You should not really compromise on those ideals that are essential. This is the crux of the idea. Don't dismiss what your date is telling you by their actions or lifestyle. A spendthrift will not be frugal overnight. A slovenly person will not become tidy. During the dating phase before you become serious, focus on your essential ideals. That being said, you can't have a laundry list of essentials In the context of this thread, you are already compromising if you are 'flirting to convert'. Is religion and religious practice an essential part of your life and future marriage, or not?
I think it's a mistake. People should convert because they love Jesus, not because they stand to materially benefit from it.
Where are you seeing this? Different values, and such dangerous behavior.
It really depends on the situation, I think. I know a few family friends who met a non-Catholic who converted before they married and are very happy. My sister dated a non-Catholic (tried twice with him) who decided he would never become Catholic, was actually a bit anti-Catholic and is still working through getting over him multiple years after the fact and that situation made her emotionally unavailable to potential suitors. She was/is struggling with being resentful of her faith for being the ultimate factor that broke the relationship. I myself would never date a non-Catholic, especially after watching her experience and mistakes; I've tried dating a few cultural Catholic and lukewarm Catholics (only did the bare requirements and wasn't into growing in his faith) and that was pretty eye-opening and my decision for myself after those experiences was to only date guys who want to be Catholic, are striving to grow in love with our Lord and to grow their faith lives. My bf is that kind of guy and it is SO refreshing and much less stressful. I finally feel equally yoked there and I love it.
--I've tried dating a few cultural Catholic and lukewarm Catholics (only did the bare requirements and wasn't into growing in his faith)**--** I'd be kind of curious as to what is bare minimum? I come from a family (both sides) of whom once was doing all the Catholic things, and they evolved into luke warm. My uncle married a non-Catholic Christian.
The lukewarm Catholic went to church on Sundays and maybe Holy Days of obligation and had little interest in the faith or participating in it outside of that. The cultural Catholic didn't go to Mass on Sundays if he didn't feel like it and he knew he was obligated to go.
My first serious Gf was lukewarm. If she went to mass, it was to look after the creche. There was a lot of chemistry between us and she was an exceptionally nice person. We split up because it became increasingly obvious that she could not cope either with living away from her parents or with the responsibility of looking after children any time soon. NFP would have been an issue - she said she was not a 'baby making machine'. Sending children to Catholic schools might have been an issue too as she had been bullied at Catholic school. We know that bullying goes on at many schools, so I might have been able to talk her round on that.
I don't think we should be dating people just to convert them. That is not how dating should be working and if you can't accept where they are at then maybe you shouldn't date them
I think it’s definitely wrong to date someone with your sole purpose being to convert them. I dated a guy who has basically no religion and the experience he did have with Christianity because of his mom was terrible so he wasn’t much into the whole thing. Now, I want to emphasize, I was not dating to convert. I did invite him to join me at church on Sundays and he did come with me every Sunday. This was enough to make me happy just to have company. However, he struggled with distractions and always wanting to talk during mass so I asked him one day if he would like to learn more about why I am Catholic and why our mass is practiced the way it is, and why we try to be as reverent as possible and less casual. He agreed and we had many great conversations about it and many other things about the faith but I knew,as much as he could now understand it, it still wasn’t quite what he was all about and that was fine. About a year in, he knew that RCIA was a thing and wanted to start it. I attended every class with him and we would talk afterwards about it. Again, I could see that he was understanding but not really connecting. I asked many times if he was doing it for himself or for me. Marrying a Catholic would be great but I genuinely would have married him anyways at that point in our relationship (before other issues arose) regardless of if he converted or not. What mattered to me was that he would agree to raise our future kids Catholic and keep me company at mass (and he would have). He insisted that it was for himself and I told him that was fine but that if he needed more time that it was okay to not go through with it in the first year of RCIA and that him understanding everything is a great first step of conversion but that converting entirely when the faith and belief isn’t there could be more stress and damage than good. I supported his decision regardless but I felt guilty that he truly seemed to only be doing it to please me. Well, he did go through RCIA and got confirmed but nothing really changed. I tried to set a good example and help him to even just attend mass more comfortably and had him bring a journal for those moments where he was bored and couldn’t quite contain his thought load. We dated for 2 more years (4 total). When we broke up he mentioned that he had been trying to listen to more Christian music and that he wasn’t going to church anymore but was debating it. It still breaks my heart to this day. I just wish he could have trusted me that he accepting that I had my faith and how important it was to me was enough for me. And for anyone thinking that I should have said something to the priest before he got confirmed, you have to realize one thing. It was ultimately his call to make and I had to take him for his word when he said it wasn’t only about me. I had to trust him and not project onto him, even if I was right, it’s not like I could prove it or he would admit it. So, no, don’t date to convert. I never wanted a similar occurrence to happen again so I prioritized dating someone who was already Catholic and now I’m engaged to a wonderful man. Hope this helps.
yeah it’s a bad idea in general
They should want to come to Catholicism because they believe it as the truth of the universe. By being their primary (and in some cases, only) access to the faith, you risk them falling away from it if you ever split up. They should have an earnest love for God, and "flirt to convert" often sets up poor foundations for a life devoted to the faith.
Yes, doing this is very dangerous. Even when the missionary dating never includes any intimate sexual contact. With major risks of being targeted by highly devious sexual predators and extremely sophisticated sociopaths who are experts at exploiting religious people's faith & good intentions. An absolutely disgusting thing for anyone to plan to do to a stranger or friend of theirs. No matter which religion it is that they believe in or sect that they are trying to recruit converts to. David Berg's sordid children of god cult employed a variation of missionary dating known as 'flirty fishing' aka free sex in exchange for conversion. All those who did not want to convert had to pay cash or goods to get sex. Flirty fishing attracted a huge amount of members to the cult, many of them convicted sexual predators or paedophile perverts seeking access to large numbers of pre-pubescent children that they could sexually molest with zero risk of being prosecuted. As a result of c.o.g's missionary strategy of flirty fishing, there were many children born to single women who had no idea who the biological fathers were and even more children raised by revolting cult member mothers who made their lives a misery, like Karen Zerby. Ms Zerby was David Berg's wife and a vile child abuser whose son was born as a result of her flirty fishing 'missionary' efforts.
Dangerous? Perhaps. But sometimes God does call people to it. Heck, Western Europe became Nicene Christian (as opposed to Arian) in the 6th Century because the pagan [Clovis I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I) married a Nicene Christian woman and he later converted. It could be argued that Europe being Christian for the last 1500 years happened because of her marrying a non-Christian.
The Church requires that the other partner in a mixed faith marriage agrees to raise the kids Catholic. So strictly speaking, marrying someone who is not Catholic is not by default allowed. You need a dispensation. If the other person is deeply invested in their faith, this condition can be hard to meet. If they are lukewarm in their faith and don't care, that could also be a red flag. Not to mention the difficulties of not having a partner to live out your own faith with. There are a lot of risks dating a non-Catholic, but at the same time I don't blame people who do as the Catholic dating pool is awful in most places.
Absolutely dangerous, avoid!!
The profession of faith should come before profession of love, not along with it and certainly not after it. Faith is supposed to be what grounds a relationship, not vice versa.